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Episode 28 - WHAT can the IPHONE teach us ??
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Have you heard of "Industrial Design" before? (or have you largely overlooked it like so many of us?!) The iPHONE, which transformed the entire world, is an ingenous example of Industrial Design where an object is designed to interact with hundreds of millions of random people. What are the rules governing GOOD INDUSTRIAL DESIGN and what does it have to teach us about OUR OWN WORK???? Are we missing an opportunity here to learn something important here??? Mary brings the heat in today's discuss on this amazing and often overlooked topic.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. I have no idea what time it is where you guys live, so I figured why not. This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast about creativity, art, and design, and more recently, the philosophy of life.
00:00:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, woodworker by day. ah Sorry, scientist by day, woodworker.
00:00:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
No, oh, career change.
00:00:38
Mary
Oh, switching it up.
00:00:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
Meet the Hosts
00:00:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a Scientist by day, woodworker by night. And I'm joined by my two co-hosts who you know very well, Eric Curtis, full-time furniture maker and content creator, and Mary Tisai.
00:00:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
There it is, bringing it back.
00:00:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
UX designer by day, contemporary furniture heiress by night.
00:01:00
Mary
Harris!
00:01:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Whoo, whoo.
00:01:03
Mary
I have not inherited every anything.
Industrial Design Lessons from the iPhone
00:01:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
and The everything was a Freudian slip there, that was...
00:01:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So today's episode is something that Mary was passionate about.
00:01:15
Mary
Uh...
00:01:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and yeah oh or she's Or she's dead, one or the other.
00:01:18
Mary
is...
00:01:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I was gonna say was.
00:01:21
Mary
is passionate.
00:01:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
She gave up her dreams.
00:01:23
Mary
Oh my god!
00:01:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:01:27
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Only only on the inside.
00:01:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah put
00:01:30
Mary
That's true.
00:01:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so So today's topic is, I would say, and I'm gonna ask Mary this this right off the bat, What can the iPhone teach us? Mary, why should we think of the iPhone as an example? What does it have to teach us? Tell us right now, go.
00:01:52
Mary
Well, should we mention that the topic is industrial design?
00:01:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Sure. what is the ah We're coming to that.
00:01:58
Mary
We never mentioned that yet.
00:02:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What does the iPhone what what is the i tell tell me right now?
00:02:01
Mary
Okay.
00:02:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
if some No, no, no, like you're on you're on a train, you're in an in an elevator, and someone saddles up to you uncomfortably and was like, hey, Mary, tell me why the iPhone's so important and why me as an artist cares.
00:02:03
Mary
Why was the iPhone so important, basically?
00:02:18
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's such a good fucking question.
00:02:18
Mary
but
00:02:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's the title of this episode, by the way.
00:02:21
Mary
i
00:02:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Why is the iPhone so important?
00:02:25
Mary
I mean, the iPhone is the example I always go to because it's the one that most people can relate to the most. Most people, I guess that's not true. A lot of people have an iPhone on their person all the time.
00:02:35
Mary
They interact with it every single day, the majority of the hours.
00:02:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, Paul.
00:02:40
Mary
But the iPhone was literally a landmark invention. It fundamentally changed how people interacted with technology. ah like There was a design paradigm shift. Think of like before the iPhone, it was all these cell phones with buttons. The touchscreen technology was interesting. this It like marked the beginning of the smartphone area era, putting like calculators, phone ah phone, camera, apps, everything into one surface that you interact with.
00:03:09
Mary
And it also like has a really lasting legacy because you can see this pivot where all other phone companies were like, yeah, this is the like the goal that we
Relevance of Design Principles in Art and Furniture
00:03:20
Mary
want to move towards.
00:03:20
Mary
Yes, Eric?
00:03:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but I'm a, I'm a, go ahead, Eric.
00:03:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So I, I don't doubt any of what you just said, because there is a very clear delineation in, I think my mind, and I think our culture of pre iPhone and post iPhone. I think that's a very clear mark. How important is the iPhone as an object versus how important was Steve Jobs as a salesperson or, or an ideas guy, like how, you know,
00:03:50
Mary
It was a mix of both. I mean, he came he knew how to sell the product.
00:03:55
Whatwhat in the Eruq
He sold a dream. He sold a dream.
00:03:57
Mary
Yeah.
00:03:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Guys, guys, guys, I'm still, look, look, i look, fuck the two of you.
00:03:58
Mary
He sold the dream and then we're getting too philosophical.
00:04:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm still in the elevator. right I'm still in the elevator, uncomfortably close to Mary, thinking to myself, look, I'm a fucking furniture maker and I make wooden objects.
00:04:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have yet to convince me this applies to me. Tell me why it applies to me.
00:04:20
Mary
Okay, you're a furniture maker, which means that you create an object. I guess we'll just ignore Eric's question.
00:04:25
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, no, it's fine. I think that was a great fucking question, but it's fine. We'll deal with Paul's query first.
00:04:30
Mary
Okay, you are creating objects, you have that in common. But have you created objects where the where the person that you're creating it for is millions of people who all have different tastes, who all will interact with it differently.
00:04:44
Mary
And like, if you look at the iPhone itself, it's designed beautifully in that it feels natural. That's something you have in common curves, obviously people love the rounded feeling.
00:04:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm. Mmm, mmm, mmm.
00:04:55
Mary
If it's in your hands, it's experimented a few times with non-curves. Well, but not always, but it, yes, it was.
00:05:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I was gonna say, is it still curvy? Like the original iPhone was like a fucking pillow.
00:05:06
Mary
And I think that there is definitely a balance. It is not so hard 90 degrees, though. There is still very much ah a radius on that corner.
00:05:12
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:05:14
Mary
It's just a little bit smaller, depending on which iPhone you have. but its But I think it's beautifully designed because, is this the question? I don't even remember anymore.
00:05:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Why is it so important?
00:05:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, the question, wait, I'm trying to like, right from the get go, I'm trying to, like, we have a lot of listeners, right? Who don't make things in the million of units. So why do they care?
00:05:31
Mary
Yeah.
00:05:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's what I'm trying to get at.
00:05:35
Whatwhat in the Eruq
can i Can I reframe the question a little bit?
00:05:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, sure.
00:05:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
um Because so I don't think any of us on this podcast, maybe, maybe Mary, but ah certainly not you and I, Paul, ah or the majority of our listeners will ever make things for people in the millions.
00:05:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
However, I do think there is a... ah Like we could reimagine this to say, I haven't even ever made something for somebody who doesn't know me personally. Like there's never been a client who's paid me for my work, who hasn't seen my work beforehand and say, I want something like that. Or I know this kid when I was younger and he works hard and I want him to build something because I want to support him. So.
Balancing Simplicity and Complexity in Design
00:06:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
What I think is interesting about the iPhone is the idea, not that there are millions of people who have different tastes because fuck people's tastes. Most of them are bad, but the, but the idea of making something that has to be intuitive to a person that you know nothing about is an interesting way to think about why the iPhone is successful.
00:06:27
Mary
um my god
00:06:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
00:06:40
Mary
Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest lessons from design, industrial design, user design, is user-centered design.
00:06:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:06:47
Mary
The fact that you're focusing on the user experience. And like I feel like one of the more valuable lessons that woodworkers can learn from industrial design is the importance on like focusing on that end user.
00:06:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm.
00:07:00
Mary
The problem and the difference is that woodworkers usually know who that end user is.
00:07:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
00:07:05
Mary
Like Eric said, industrial designers have to kind of think of the end user as this generic blob and it has to be blobby enough to entertain people like us who are like you know more on the technological side or and also my parents who have no idea how any kind of computer or phone works like that is such a hard problem
00:07:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:07:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I'm trying so hard not to make a blob fat joke about how Paul just broke his chair.
00:07:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:07:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know she just called us all blobs. yeah My chair broke before the episode. My fat ass actually collapsed the chair. Yeah, it did. I'm not even joking.
00:07:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so I want to take a step back. Like I wanted to put Mary on the hot seat in a way like we didn't ah rehearse before the show.
00:07:48
Mary
Oh
00:07:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I wanted to like put her in a moment of like panic and be like justify your position but I want the listeners to know and and like in general you know Mary has sort of brought to my attention like how and how big or if a challenge is designing for so many people that so many blobs you don't know right you don't know who they are you don't know what they want and and that's a I never even considered that being
00:07:53
Mary
great.
00:08:11
Mary
Yeah.
00:08:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like a huge, huge design challenge. And I do think it
Understanding Industrial Design
00:08:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
has a lot to teach us. So understand my, my going after Mary at the front of the episode wasn't because I disagree.
00:08:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was just trying to play this, the skeptic or, or you know, play a little devil devil's advocate up front about industrial design.
00:08:31
Mary
I mean, that's the view that most people have, I would say, because a lot of like, I'm gonna say this over and over again, the saying in our field is that good design goes unnoticed. So most people should not notice the things that are well designed in their life, because otherwise, it's going to be annoying.
00:08:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, that's a great.
00:08:47
Mary
And it's a bad design. Go ahead, Eric.
00:08:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so good design gets a touchy.
00:08:49
Whatwhat in the Eruq
But also that also feels a little bit like designers patting themselves on the back for things that they don't get complimented for.
00:08:55
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You know, they're just like, they're like, well, yeah, sure.
00:08:56
Mary
Oh,
00:08:58
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Nobody liked it, but that's because like good design should go unnoticed.
00:09:04
Mary
I 100% agree with that.
00:09:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Touché, Eric. All right, so now that now that we have ah the panic-stricken portion of the episode where I'm attacking Mary to to pretend we're in an elevator and comfortably close, um let's let's come to the real
00:09:14
Mary
ah Thanks.
00:09:20
Mary
Which has happened many times, by the way.
00:09:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I'm going to need that story later on in this episode.
00:09:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and Not with me, per se, but with someone else, I assume. Okay.
00:09:29
Mary
Oh yeah.
00:09:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, all right. So let's start by saying today's episode is about industrial design and what it can teach us about our craft, our art as an example. ah So Mary, why don't I know, I know every, everyone loves your defining things.
00:09:45
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh, Christ.
00:09:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is, Mary, have at it. Define industrial design.
00:09:52
Mary
Oh my god, oh my god.
00:09:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
why How have we not made a t-shirt that says, can you define that for me yet?
00:09:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's so good.
00:09:59
Mary
Oh my god. Well, I'm gonna try to keep it simple because I could go into length or whatever. But in layman's terms, industrial design is the design of physical things, typically smaller than a building, and typically produced in high volume.
00:10:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:10:15
Mary
So it does things like um I can go into you know, more specifics, but in general, it does things like balance functionality, aesthetics and mass production, the mass production being one of the things that makes it stand out from our craftsmanship or artisanal craft, artisanal craft. Yeah, so i unlike purely artistic That's the right word, endeavors. ID, it really combines like creative vision with technical knowledge. And it wants to create products that not only look good, but are also practical and efficient and I guess, manufacturable on a large scale.
00:10:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:10:57
Mary
um
00:10:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Can I, can I bring you back to something you said already?
00:11:00
Mary
Yeah.
00:11:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You talked about the, the, I guess the four pillars of good industrial designs and you said them quickly, but I feel like I didn't want to lose track of them because they they went by in an instant, but they're really important. You said aesthetics.
00:11:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that's how it looks. Right.
00:11:15
Mary
Yeah, I don't think I, did I say the four pillars yet?
00:11:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Functionality. Well, you did. Yeah. You said aesthetics, functionality and mass production.
00:11:19
Mary
Oh.
00:11:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I didn't hear you say them either, Mary, so it's fine.
00:11:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, well that they went, fast they went by fast. And so Mary, why don't you, yeah.
00:11:26
Mary
Okay. I think I, so I did mention, yeah, functionality, aesthetics, mass production. However, the main pillars of good industrial design are functionality, aesthetics, simplicity, and innovation.
00:11:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
can Can you elaborate on each of those?
00:11:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Can you define each and every one of those?
00:11:38
Mary
ah Yes, I can.
Apple's Innovation Timeline
00:11:40
Mary
So functionality, essentially, the thing has to work effectively. It prioritizes usability, ergonomics, durability.
00:11:49
Mary
An example of this would be like OXO. Do you guys know like the OXO kitchen tools?
00:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, I do.
00:11:54
Mary
So they are kind of a landmark with an ID for um functionality that feels and works really well. ah Second one, aesthetics. Yep, good.
00:12:05
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Can, can I, as you're giving examples, given our audience, I'm, I'm curious if you can like name what might be your prototypical example in the industrial design field, but also name a woodworking example.
00:12:17
Mary
Uh-huh.
00:12:20
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Because like Oxo, I don't know.
00:12:20
Mary
Ooh.
00:12:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I don't know what the hell Oxo is.
00:12:22
Mary
Yeah, no, that's a good point. Uh, okay, functionality.
00:12:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:12:26
Mary
I might need your guys' help with this.
00:12:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Well, you said er ergonomics was the the word that I latched onto, which is like chair design is a nightmare because of ergonomics.
00:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i mean i
00:12:32
Mary
Yes.
00:12:35
Mary
Yes, that's true.
00:12:36
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So like a well-designed chair would, or no is like, that's a real challenge.
Planned Obsolescence and Product Durability
00:12:43
Mary
Yes.
00:12:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah yeah
00:12:44
Mary
That's true.
00:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Functionality, Eric, you mean what what what in our field has and is an excellent example of good functionality?
00:12:52
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:55
Mary
something that prioritizes usability and ergonomics.
00:12:59
Whatwhat in the Eruq
But the cabinet behind you, Paul, like it it serves a very specific function.
00:12:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It.
00:13:02
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You need to put shit inside a box and it needs to be big enough to hold that shit.
00:13:07
Mary
I would say like a stool, maybe.
00:13:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:13:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:13:10
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure.
00:13:10
Mary
There's a very definitive purpose for a stool.
00:13:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:13:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:13:11
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:13:11
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:13
Mary
It's usually not that, yeah.
00:13:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
There's very definitive heights for, for specific stools.
00:13:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One, one that doesn't break under my fat ass.
00:13:17
Mary
It's not usually like a beautiful thing.
00:13:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:13:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go.
00:13:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep.
00:13:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep. Okay. All right. We got there.
00:13:25
Mary
All right. ah Second one aesthetics.
00:13:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:13:28
Mary
So things like brand identity. This is where like emotional connection comes in a little bit. But one example, I guess that bridges both ID and we're working as like Eames chairs and Eames furniture.
00:13:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:13:40
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm, sure.
00:13:41
Mary
Like, you know, you can recognize it because it's got a strong brand identity.
00:13:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Yeah.
00:13:44
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:13:46
Mary
And it's a very specific aesthetic.
00:13:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you know, Mary, that surprises me when you said aesthetics, I immediately thought it looks beautiful.
00:13:52
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:13:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's what I thought to myself, but you're saying brand identity.
00:13:57
Mary
Yeah, not necessarily, because again, people find different things beautiful that other people might not like. So I i at least ah we like correlate it to knowing who made it.
00:14:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see, I see.
00:14:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, good point.
00:14:12
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So I like to that point. if you see an iPhone out in the wild, which obviously you do every day, like you can immediately recognize it as an iPhone. And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on this, but like, I see people's phones in what I do more than recognize it's an iPhone.
00:14:23
Mary
Mm hmm.
00:14:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That doesn't even clock for me, but I do identify it when it's not an iPhone, which in that case identifies a specific aesthetic.
00:14:33
Mary
Yeah.
00:14:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yes, Paul, you have the fucking green text message, dog. That, that that illuminates a specific aesthetic that I hadn't even considered. Right.
00:14:47
Whatwhat in the Eruq
But, but it's very clear when a thing is like, it's a different size or proportion, or maybe the lines are slightly different, whatever it is.
00:14:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:14:52
Mary
Yes.
00:14:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, Mary, that's good.
00:14:55
Mary
Yeah, exactly. And therere um there are brands that try to replicate the design of the iPhone, but there's always something that's off and you can always tell.
00:15:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:15:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
OK.
00:15:05
Mary
um Okay, third one is simplicity.
00:15:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so yep.
00:15:09
Mary
So clear, but okay, so simplicity, I will say it's very hard to design a simple object that works for people, for most people.
00:15:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:22
Mary
So it needs to be intuitive, uncluttered, focus on essentials, essential elements. And there's a lot of things ah that fit this bill. The iPhone, we can say an ID is one of them. It is simple in its physical state. I won't speak for the software side because
Woodworking vs. Mass Production
00:15:42
Mary
different systems and different, you know, however people customize their iPhones.
00:15:46
Mary
That can be a mess, but the physical product itself, it's a glass screen and that's all you interact with.
00:15:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's really good.
00:15:52
Mary
And the camera, the camera makes it a little more difficult these days, but yes.
00:15:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mm-hmm.
00:15:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It ah mainly, it, it made me think of a Tesla where it's just a single monitor is the whole dash, right?
00:15:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:15:58
Mary
Try to think of.
00:16:05
Mary
Yeah.
00:16:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's no gauges and all buttons and tweakers and knobs. It's like just a single black monitor.
00:16:10
Mary
Right.
00:16:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was like, whoa.
00:16:14
Mary
Yeah, so they really leaned into this ah pillar. i would that The Tesla is a very controversial design, I would say, in car design.
00:16:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure, sure.
00:16:22
Mary
But yeah, they've really leaned into this and tried to go as simple as possible.
00:16:27
Whatwhat in the Eruq
What is the simplicity of mass-produced woodworking objects or objects that like...
00:16:35
Mary
IKEA.
00:16:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
00:16:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sorry?
00:16:38
Mary
IKEA. Flat pack stuff.
00:16:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh, see, I was i was thinking about that as innovation.
00:16:43
Mary
Oh, it could be, yeah.
00:16:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Both.
00:16:43
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Because, because, because they did like for sure, like we'll we'll get into innovation, obviously, but the idea of flat packing any piece of furniture that you could possibly think of and shipping it around the globe is wildly innovative and they don't get enough credit for that.
00:16:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's both.
00:16:56
Mary
Yeah. It's so hard Yeah.
00:16:59
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, that's it so and that's part of the reason why I was wondering if simplicity is the wrong category for that. But to your point about the iPhone, the interface is simple, but the all of the things that go behind that screen are not simple.
00:17:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Simplicity.
00:17:14
Mary
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:15
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay, all right, fair.
00:17:17
Mary
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what like the furniture equivalent of like simplicity would be.
00:17:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Is it like the barn table?
00:17:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, um, simplicity.
00:17:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
like I don't know what it is.
00:17:26
Mary
What about like the Noguchi table? Well, I don't know. This one's hard because simple.
00:17:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, simple can be difficult.
00:17:36
Mary
Yeah.
00:17:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I'll, I'll give you Ikea, like Ikea, Ikea in the realm of simplicity took building furniture and made it accessible to people who don't even own a hammer and in who might not speak the same language as the manufacturers.
00:17:50
Mary
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:54
Mary
Yep.
00:17:54
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like they did it all in pictographs. Like, so, so they simplified it to the point where you can't get simpler than that in fairness.
00:18:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I guess I see simplicity in woodworking or you know are the art world as a piece actually is very complicated to make, but it looks so simple.
00:18:07
Mary
Mhm.
00:18:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And one of the one of the examples I think is like a divider system, because I do those all the time, divider systems, where all them the the tongues and grooves and mortises and tenons and the and the miters, all of it's hidden.
00:18:16
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mm-hmm.
00:18:25
Mary
Yeah like that.
00:18:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All of it, all of the joinery and nuts and bolts is all invisible.
00:18:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep.
00:18:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It looks so clean and so simple, yet none of it's simple in reality. I tend to think of simplicity like that, where it's like the final product looks so clean and so slick, but boy, it was not clean and slick getting there.
00:18:48
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. and it's is it
Can Industrial Design and Art Coexist?
00:18:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mary, tell me if I'm wrong here, but maybe is intuitive. is that Could that be a standard word for simplicity?
00:18:58
Mary
Yeah, that's part of it for sure.
00:19:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Because I think that there are objects that like you interact with a thing in an intuitive way and you don't think about it. And maybe that is the simplicity of it. I can't think of an example mass produced in the woodworking world off the top of my head.
00:19:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, think about your cabinets.
00:19:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
but like
00:19:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like when you have a cabinet or a box, it has to be intuitive how to open it.
00:19:20
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure, sure.
00:19:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right, and and that comes to your design. Like if you don't know where to pull, like sometimes you change where the pull is on a cabinet door, and so that has to do with that simplicity or intuitiveness.
00:19:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like something's gotta guide your hand and you just look at this thing you've never seen before, but somehow you know where to open it.
00:19:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. and you And you just kind of know, you just kind of know.
00:19:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, you just know, yeah.
00:19:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And that, and again, that speaks to the iPhone of like, there are so many things where you could pick up a phone and you have to press a button on the side or button on the top or whatever it is to like illuminate the screen.
00:19:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And whoever, I don't know when this started, but whoever came up with the idea of like, well, yeah, you just fucking tap the screen and that illuminates because that's, because that's the first thing that you always do is you just go pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.
00:19:58
Mary
Or you just pick it up.
00:20:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:03
Mary
Yep.
00:20:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And use your hand and not a stylus, right?
00:20:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Using your fingers is super intuitive.
00:20:08
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay.
00:20:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Alright, so Mary, we have aesthetics, which is not necessarily how good it looks, but um almost more like branding, right?
00:20:09
Whatwhat in the Eruq
All right.
00:20:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And your, your brand identification, functionality, simplicity, and what's the last
00:20:20
Mary
Last one is innovation. So things like, uh, does the product push boundaries? Does it solve problem problems in new and creative ways? Do they use new materials, cutting edge tech, like rethinking methods? So, um, one thing that I just thought of today, cause I was using mine in the ID world it is the Dyson vacuum was pretty, uh, groundbreaking when it was first invented because it's backless technology.
00:20:49
Mary
the Cyclone system wasn't really a thing before, and it's portable and easy and very distinctive in its look. So that is on the ID side.
00:20:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It hits all the points, doesn't it?
00:21:00
Mary
Yeah.
00:21:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:21:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:21:02
Mary
But i yeah, I would agree with Eric, like IKEA for sure pushed the innovation of Flatpak furniture so well.
00:21:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:21:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
ahead, Paul.
00:21:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I, so now, now that Mary's got to introduce us to the four pillars of good industrial design and Mary, you have convinced me hook line and sinker. Like I can see these pillars in the objects you're talking about. I can see them clearly as is excellent as like, how did we get here? Do you want to just briefly tell us a little bit about the history? Like, how did we get to this point?
00:21:35
Mary
Yeah, sure. So industrial design um really came
Favorite Mass-produced Items
00:21:41
Mary
in the like late 18th, early 19th century during the Industrial Revolution, essentially.
00:21:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:21:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:21:48
Mary
So when advancements in manufacturing and machines allowed for the actual mass production of goods,
00:21:56
Mary
So that was the beginning of it. It really ah took off by the 20th century, specifically with movements or I guess schools like the Bauhaus, which emphasized ah what was it the unity of like art, craft, and industry.
00:22:13
Mary
So the Bauhaus, for those who don't know, was a design school in Germany founded in 1919. I used to know this art history school. 1919, I think.
00:22:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I think that's right. Yeah. 14 years, 1919 and 1933.
00:22:26
Mary
Yeah, ah by Walter Gropius. So it produced just like, we're gonna skip over that.
00:22:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
What a fucking name.
00:22:34
Mary
ah ah So there's a lot of really iconic designers that came out of it, people that you might recognize in the furniture world, like Charles and Ray Eames. um ah who else is there, like Dieter Rams.
00:22:47
Mary
Dieter Rams actually was a big ah name because he had like a less but better philosophy. So focusing on that like simplicity aspect that we were talking about and like timeless design, quote unquote.
00:22:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, it's pretty.
00:22:58
Mary
um Raymond Loewy and Yeah, so it has progressed to um where what it is today. And there's a lot of industrial design programs. What I love about ID is that there are so there are trends that are so distinctive throughout time.
00:23:15
Mary
And I love that it keeps developing. But you can also see the influence from the current trend of like where they got that influence from the past. So um yeah, anyway, that was just a very high level history.
00:23:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's cool.
00:23:27
Whatwhat in the Eruq
no No, no, no, don't don't don't anyway geek the fuck out like what do you what I want examples I want to know more about that shit
00:23:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, I'm digging it.
00:23:34
Mary
I, well, so people, when the people talk about ID, they always talk about like the really famous names, but one name that a lot of people do not know, but is responsible for the iPhone and for a lot of the pieces or products that they interact with is Johnny Ive, who was the chief design officer at Apple. And he was the main industrial designer he created and along with the team, the iMac, the iPod, the iPad.
00:24:02
Mary
and the iPhone. So he is one of the most famous, I know he is one of the most famous ID ah industrial designers, he no longer works there, I think he left a couple years ago to start his own thing, obviously, why not.
00:24:05
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Jesus Christ, what a career.
00:24:16
Mary
um But He is someone that I really admire. And if you like if you just Google any of his interviews, the way he thinks through products and is able to see the future and the vision of this very simple product and like where it's going to go, he worked with Steve Jobs.
00:24:33
Mary
um The two of them worked really closely to develop this vision. And they marketed it really well. They built it really well and designed it. i Yes, I very much admire him.
00:24:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. Mary, I'm like, I'm both awestruck and jealous that I can't think like that at the same time. Go ahead. Go ahead, Eric.
00:24:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I like, I'm just genuinely curious how Apple's relationship with releasing new products and innovation, what that timeline looks like from this dude leaving the company.
00:25:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Because now I, well, I feel like we're all in ah again, this is a layman's perspective.
00:25:04
Mary
What do you mean?
00:25:09
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So correct me if the industrial design world feels differently, but. I feel like we all see Apple now as a company that every six to 12 months releases a new product that's like, oh, you didn't fucking change a goddamn thing.
00:25:20
Mary
Yep.
00:25:24
Mary
Yes.
00:25:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You just want people to be excited about a thing. So when did that start?
00:25:27
Mary
Yes.
00:25:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
When did when did Mr. Tim Apple ah start releasing?
00:25:33
Mary
Mr. Apple.
00:25:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mr. When did Mr. Apple start releasing bullshit updates like as new objects versus like when this dude left?
00:25:40
Mary
I love, yes, I love that you brought this up. So if you, yes, a lot of people, this is like a huge critique of Apple right now.
00:25:43
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh, oh, this is a thing.
00:25:49
Mary
So people, depending on who you ask, it happened when Steve Jobs died. So
00:25:55
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure, I know a lot of people who feel like that. And that's that's kind of I feel like again, as a layman, I feel like that's the story I've been told.
00:26:03
Mary
Yeah, and I kind of buy into that. So buy hard to describe. I don't I don't know much about Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs. I know that he pushed people real hard. He was kind of an asshole. But I think that really forces people to think outside the box. And that is what he was known for, for pushing people outside of the box. And I think although it comes at a price, like, that's where innovation can happen.
00:26:29
Mary
It's not the only way, but it is the way that they worked. So Johnny I've left, I don't remember exactly when but it was a couple years after that. And I remember I if I recall correctly, he had started stepping down already.
00:26:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:26:41
Mary
So I think the combination of those two are maybe and also with Steve Bosniak, the combination of those and leaders at the top was just such a good
00:26:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:26:50
Mary
like, chemistry, and then once they all started to step away or passed away, e etc. Yeah, it it ah declined.
00:26:59
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So is this a thing that is inevitable in industrial design?
00:26:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's fascinating.
00:27:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like is this, so you, you create an object, you create a vision, you refine that object over time and you come up with, ah let's just, let's just for the sake of this example, say the iPhone was a perfect item, right?
00:27:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like it is, it's intuitive. Everybody can use it. Somebody who's, who doesn't speak English or has never seen a smartphone before can pick it up and figure it out in a matter of minutes.
00:27:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:27:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Perfect item.
00:27:30
Whatwhat in the Eruq
As time goes by and the people who have that creative vision and that creative genius go by the wayside and people inevitably come into a successful business because I'm, I'm equating successful industrial design with mass production and therefore reasonable profits.
00:27:49
Mary
Mm-hmm, yep.
00:27:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So people come into a business and then it seems like inevitably the quality of a product takes a fucking nosedive.
00:27:59
Mary
I mean, it happened, yeah.
00:27:59
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So, so is that, I guess, I guess the thing that I'm wondering from an outsider's perspective is, is that the inevitability of just like human greed and it and it happens and there's no way around that?
00:28:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:28:09
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Or has there in the last hundred years been a shift in the way that industrial designers approach their work? Because I feel like I could be wrong.
00:28:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
This could just be um anecdotal, but I feel like We all have that grandmother, that great aunt, that somebody who has objects from 40, 50, 60 years ago.
00:28:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And they're like, well, why would I ever get a new one? like this is It works.
00:28:39
Mary
Yeah.
00:28:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's beautiful. it's It's done the job for six decades. Of course I don't need a new one. and so therere There was, it seems like mass produced objects were held up on a pedestal of like, this is better than handmade because it is perfect by definition.
00:28:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's flawless and without human error versus now we see industrial made objects as like just absolute waste bullshit that is disposable.
00:29:07
Mary
yeah
00:29:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So has there, has there been a shift over time in the philosophy and ideology of industrial designers, or is that just the inevitability of companies grow and then people try to maximize profits.
00:29:20
Mary
So really hard question.
00:29:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You're welcome. Go to town.
00:29:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jesus Christ.
00:29:26
Mary
There's just there's so many because like, as you were saying that I kept thinking, yes, this and this, there's so many different paths I could take. So yes, to an extent, I would agree. Yes, that the quality of Objects and products that are mass produced has gone downhill um in general. Yes the quality they always say like your grandma stuff is always like better made and sure it probably was. ah It was it's cheaper to create these days it's easier to replace and also companies create objects.
00:29:58
Mary
with planned obsolescence in mind so that they could keep making a profit. So the even the iPhone.
00:30:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, can you talk more about that?
00:30:05
Mary
Yeah, so plan obsolescence ah is essentially, how do you define it?
00:30:11
Whatwhat in the Eruq
The light bulb cartel.
00:30:12
Mary
Plant obsolescence. Yeah, so if you want to talk about the beginning of it, but plant obsolescence is the lifespan of a product is only built for a couple of years.
00:30:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, oh.
00:30:24
Mary
so that it starts to break down and the consumer is forced to then buy the new version of it or a replacement of it so that that company can stay in business. i
00:30:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And this is, this has been going on for a long time.
00:30:34
Mary
there
00:30:36
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like the, the kind of famous example of this was the, the, I don't remember which companies band together, but there were several companies in the early 20th century making light bulbs and they had the ability to make light bulbs that were lasting like.
00:30:51
Whatwhat in the Eruq
2000 to 3000 hours, roughly. And they basically all got together and they were like, well, this is bad for business. So we should set a standard where all light bulbs go out roughly around a thousand hours, because that will keep customers coming back. And that's where like the the light bulb cartel was born. Um, and then in, I think it was maybe 15 years ago, Maytag got sued for planned obsolescence is technically illegal, right?
00:31:21
Mary
Yes.
00:31:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And, and so Maytag they found out that there was a certain thing, like some kind of breaker in in their washers and dryers that would break down after a certain amount of hours of use.
00:31:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And they got sued and they lost the lawsuit.
00:31:36
Mary
Yeah.
00:31:36
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So like, this is, this is a thing that still fucking happens. This is very real.
00:31:39
Mary
I mean, even Apple, Apple is actually pretty famous for this because with their iPhone or with any of their products, there's something called the right to repair, where they did not allow um third party companies or, you know, yeah, exactly.
00:31:44
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:31:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Avoid all warranties, right?
00:31:55
Mary
They did not allow you to actually repair your iPhone, you were forced to upgrade or, you know, go to an Apple store, etc.
00:31:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:32:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Is that in law in the United States or is that, I feel like that was a European thing first.
00:32:10
Mary
I'm not sure. I don't know enough about it. I do think that it was overturned in the US in the past few years, but I'm looked into it.
00:32:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay. I get it. It doesn't really matter in that we don't have the right to repair.
00:32:20
Mary
In that we do now have it.
00:32:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh, okay. Okay.
00:32:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It yeah seems to be a ballot question in a lot of states. But anyway, Eric, you asked a multi-part, multi-generational question, and then you got us on some other fucking track before you gave Mary a chance to answer it.
00:32:35
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's... I'm so- You're the one who was supposed to fucking reel me in, dawg.
00:32:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You prick.
00:32:40
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's your role in the show.
00:32:42
Mary
He's a curious boy.
00:32:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
bitch that's Bitch, that's what I'm trying to do right now. Okay. This is me fucking reeling your ass back in. So Mary, we're objects of higher quality in the past.
00:32:57
Mary
I was like, what is this floating hand?
00:32:58
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's, I love that service. Vicki just handed you a fucking, what is that? What's in the beverage dog?
00:33:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Water, unfortunately. I already finished this, but see this, see this bottle of whiskey is empty.
00:33:08
Mary
I just see this floating hand coming in.
00:33:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm like, can you bring me a water?
00:33:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
forgive me Okay.
00:33:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, back to it. So Mary, Mary.
00:33:16
Whatwhat in the Eruq
All right. So we're, we're objects actually have a higher quality back then.
00:33:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I, yes.
00:33:20
Mary
ah Yes.
00:33:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:33:23
Mary
Yes.
00:33:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. Really?
00:33:24
Mary
Yeah, I would argue, well, it depends on...
00:33:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
00:33:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So no, i'm I'm genuinely asking because I feel like there are also things that we didn't know 50 years ago.
00:33:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, Eric.
00:33:31
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like, hey, guys, I don't know how to tell you this.
00:33:32
Mary
Yes, that is true.
00:33:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:33:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Lead paint works fucking better. And you know why we don't use it?
00:33:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:33:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Because nobody wants fucking the all of the issues that come around with lead paint.
00:33:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:33:41
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So like, of course.
00:33:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I, I have, go ahead, Mary.
00:33:43
Mary
They were built good.
00:33:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. No, you go.
00:33:46
Mary
I was going to say products were built to last at least.
00:33:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure.
00:33:50
Mary
And they were built to to the best ability of the time.
00:33:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:33:56
Mary
Whereas these days companies do not feel that guilt of cutting corners or using a cheaper material.
00:33:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:34:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Uh, anecdote from my house today. Okay. Uh, Eric, what kind of stove do I have? Do you remember?
00:34:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh, you got that bitch from like the 1920s. That thing's a behemoth.
00:34:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. So it's like, it's it's a 19, 1950s hot point stove, all push button.
00:34:18
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Cast iron ceramic coated.
00:34:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm. Oh, she's a beaut man.
00:34:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've repaired it one single time in the 20 years I've been in this house.
00:34:28
Mary
Wow, really?
00:34:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the heating The heating element cracked and I bought a new heating element for $25 and it's squished it in there and like bent it to fit and we're back at it. So don't tell me products from yesteryear don't last.
00:34:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They do. That stove has cooked for me.
00:34:48
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It absolutely does. It absolutely does.
00:34:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
for 20 years. And you know what's broke on me today? My all plastic piece of shit dishwasher wouldn't open because because the plastic latch broke for a second time because I've already replaced it.
00:35:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:35:03
Mary
Plastic, of course.
00:35:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's like, you know, I really feel deeply this this about like the quality of yesteryear versus the quality of today. I know, but today comes with new innovations that yesteryear didn't have.
00:35:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like that stove is so simple, right?
00:35:17
Whatwhat in the Eruq
that's That's it.
00:35:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like you push a button and it's on or it's off.
00:35:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
it's
00:35:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not that, you know, it's not.
00:35:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
and In fairness, my so I bought my stove a year and a half ago and like you push a button and it's on or it's off. So like, but you know, hey, that's ah from Home Depot.
00:35:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can't help it if you're cheap.
00:35:32
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I guess. so I guess the the the that's he's not wrong of the poorest person on this podcast.
00:35:35
Mary
He's calling you a cheap bitch, wow.
00:35:41
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like I can say that I'm a cheap bitch.
00:35:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:35:44
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I will. question the like I where am I trying to go with this I I think you're exactly right in that in that the quality of that object is better but to the point of innovation like I well I want I wonder like if your electric bill is $100 and that's an electric stove from 1950 that thing's probably
00:35:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh-oh.
00:35:50
Mary
I don't know.
00:35:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's worse, yeah.
00:36:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Taking up sixty fucking dollars of that like it's it's not the efficiency of that is and now we have twice as many people on the earth or three times as many people, you know
00:36:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bitch! You don't know! okay okay
00:36:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So, so to be fair, yes, they were built with better quality materials and they lasted long because it's all metal and it's all, you know, metal contacts. There's very little plastic, but the innovation is low, like you said, right. And, um, there's one other point about, uh, oh, and there's, so and there's planned obsolescence today and there wasn't in yesteryear. So I think those are the three main points, you know, better building materials, they hold up longer, lower innovation, but today we have planned obsolescence as a form of profit.
00:36:44
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So to my original question that I loaded amongst 17 other questions to Mary, is that planned obsolescence something that industrial designers are asked to do in the design product. So like as an industrial designer, if, if we set this on an Island, somebody comes to you and they say, we want you to design a product is your goal to design the best possible product, or is your goal to take into account all of the things that the company needs you to do, which is continue to make profit for them. So you need to make it as cheaply as possible and with planned obsolescence.
00:37:21
Mary
It's the latter for sure. So that is definitely part of it.
00:37:25
Whatwhat in the Eruq
i was really I was really hopeful that you were going to tell me I was wrong.
00:37:25
Mary
I will say.
00:37:28
Mary
No, it's ah well, it depends on the company, I guess, but ah for the most part, it's the latter. But in the more recent years, sustainability has become a required part of the conversation.
00:37:42
Mary
But from my perspective, which is not necessarily always correct, but just from observation, it's a bullshit conversation just for the sake of
00:37:52
Whatwhat in the Eruq
How so?
00:37:54
Mary
I mean, they just say try to make it sustainable, or like, what's the sustainability in here?
00:37:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's not a thing. you could You could make it sustainable if you wanted to, yeah.
00:37:58
Mary
It's it's like lead in building. Right? Yeah. So it's like, it's just this, we have to have the conversation about it to say that we've had the conversation, but also like make it cheaply.
00:38:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:38:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:38:11
Mary
So and that that line varies per company. And depending on, you know, who the leadership is, what the ethics are, etc. But Yeah, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, guys.
00:38:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
OK, well, on that fucking Debbie Downer note, um can we? Oh, go ahead, Paul.
00:38:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so I want to bring this back to like what our listener base thinks about in their daily life. like we We had to sort of, I hope you bared with us, like we had to set the foundation of what industrial design's about, what are some of the issues, the bugaboos, the challenges, the successes, you know like park that in your brain. But now,
00:38:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why does it matter to you? What are the steps of industrial design? And Mary, you'll cover these like usability, user center focus, sustainability, materials.
00:39:00
Mary
Mm hmm.
00:39:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
do When you say you, do you mean we as woodworkers?
00:39:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, we as woodworkers, but we we also have a lot of non-woodworkers who listen to podcasts.
00:39:05
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay.
00:39:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure, sure, as creative people who make things.
00:39:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So yeah, as creative people. So user experience, user design, sustainability, materials, manufacturing, innovation. How do we incorporate these, or can you give us examples of how to incorporate this into craft or art?
00:39:26
Mary
Yeah, I mean, these are the two sides of me, like I work in a field of design that is quote unquote mass produced, although it's the software side. And then there's the woodworking side, which is heavily influenced by the app by that.
00:39:38
Mary
So the overlaps for me are those a few. So like I had mentioned before, user centered design, focusing on like the end user. The second one, there's a few, I guess, try to think
00:39:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wait, Mary, Mary, wait, wait, wait, don't skip over that.
00:39:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So when you would, yeah, when you make it, are you saying what I make a table, I'm considering how people will interact with that table where that table lives.
00:39:54
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's important.
00:39:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yes.
00:40:02
Whatwhat in the Eruq
yes A hundred percent.
00:40:03
Mary
Yes, exactly.
00:40:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep.
00:40:04
Mary
Yes. Yeah, exactly. Like a chair that's okay.
00:40:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Can we, can we, can we give good, bad examples of both? Like how, how good use case of tables and chairs, like you were about to say, but also like what happens when you get it just wrong?
00:40:21
Mary
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say like a chair that's like exquisitely crafted and beautiful, but uncomfortable to sit in.
00:40:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, oh, all the chairs from the 1700s, every fucking chair.
00:40:34
Mary
yeah
00:40:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
every one of them.
00:40:34
Mary
ah
00:40:35
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And why? Why is that?
00:40:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They didn't give a shit or they didn't want them as people to sit long.
00:40:40
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I don't think they I don't I don't think it's that I so so
00:40:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know.
00:40:41
Mary
Well, I think it's because it was more considered a work of art in that functionality.
00:40:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What was it?
00:40:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What was it, Eric?
00:40:46
Mary
It was more like presenting.
00:40:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
My understanding of those chairs is the overwhelming majority of them, the the backs are at 90 degrees to the seat.
00:40:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, they are.
00:40:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And that's, that's viciously uncomfortable. So any chair you sit in that's designed now will be somewhere between 98 and like 115 degrees in relation to the seat in the seat will be.
00:41:10
Whatwhat in the Eruq
something like five to 10 degrees slope to the floor. So those, the seats were parallel to the floor and the backs were 90 degrees.
00:41:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:41:16
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So it forces you to sit straight up and nobody does that.
00:41:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:41:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Everybody slouch is a little bit.
00:41:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So you were, you were suggesting that there was a reason why they did that back in the day.
00:41:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So not, not so much. I think it was just undiscovered yet. Yeah.
00:41:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I thought you had a reason behind their um but having uncomfortable chairs.
00:41:31
Whatwhat in the Eruq
yeah Well, I, I, my, my personal reason, like my personal thought is that that stems from throne rooms. So they were trying to make super elegant, like high end, high fashion, rich folk furniture and thrones were 90 degrees to the seat and the seat was straight up and down.
00:41:40
Mary
Hmm. Yep.
00:41:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:41:49
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like it was just medieval design. So I think that's where it stems from, but that's just a personal theory.
00:41:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:41:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay
00:41:54
Mary
Also, most people were probably not, well, I don't know if this is true.
00:41:58
Mary
I was going to say like maybe not sitting as long as people these days do, but I don't know.
00:42:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Mary, that's a fact.
00:42:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That could be it. Could be it.
00:42:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a fact.
00:42:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep.
00:42:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Okay.
00:42:08
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Um, I w I mean, we've also all sat at the table where like we try to sit underneath it and the apron is just a little bit too wide and it hits your knees.
00:42:15
Mary
Yeah, oh my god.
00:42:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And hit your leg.
00:42:16
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So, so like, these are where I will say this, this is where the industrial design information and knowledge comes into play when you're designing objects. There are specific standards.
00:42:24
Mary
Yeah, they're standards.
00:42:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So the height of a table is 29 to 30 inches. If you go 28 and a half inches, it feels okay, but it feels weird. If you go 31 inches, it feels like you're a fucking child at Thanksgiving dinner.
00:42:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like it's just weird how that height changes. And so same with the leg clearance under a table, if it's less than 26 inches, most people will hit their legs on there.
00:42:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:42:46
Mary
Mm hmm.
00:42:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so that's about like usability and the user experience of like sitting in a chair, sitting at a table.
00:42:47
Mary
Yeah, I have a like a standards book that I rely on.
00:42:49
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. yeah
00:42:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What about materials and manufacturing?
00:43:00
Mary
I was gonna say like, understanding the manufacturing process is interesting. I have less experience in production work in the woodworking world. But I mean,
00:43:13
Mary
I think that ID kind of emphasizes the importance of like efficiency within manufacturing. So if you are in the woodworking production line world, you could absolutely learn from that.
00:43:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:43:25
Whatwhat in the Eruq
The, the question that comes into my mind about process is uniformity.
00:43:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:43:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I feel like that's where we're at a disadvantage as woodworkers.
00:43:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's why they use MDF and particle board.
00:43:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:43:38
Mary
Hmm.
00:43:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
it i mean And also this is why we color like furniture. This is why we use stains and dyes is because it's easier to make a uniform color tabletop over a batch of a hundred.
00:43:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:43:51
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Then if you were just making straight cherry table tops, every color would be slightly different.
00:43:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, that takes all the fun out of it.
00:43:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yes, but yes but like this is the manufacturing processes.
00:43:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah, it is.
00:44:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
This is why the cabinet behind you right now, Paul, is shit brown.
00:44:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and I can't wait to tell my wife her cabinet is shit brown.
00:44:05
Whatwhat in the Eruq
like it it is what What they did was they wanted it to be uniform. And so they made it fucking, they took old motor oil and they rubbed it all over that fucker.
00:44:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:44:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's a healthy shit brown in fairness.
00:44:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, all right, so Mary, though, I'm specifically thinking along the lines of like, what can I learn? ah I want to learn about how I should be thinking in my next piece based on these lessons of industrial design.
00:44:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So materials and manufacturing, like if I'm making a run of a hundred things, um am I searching?
00:44:45
Mary
So designing joinery, that's easier to cut and assemble.
00:44:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, go ahead.
00:44:50
Mary
It could save time and produced ah waste, ah material waste.
00:44:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:44:54
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So you're telling me to route dovetails, got it.
00:44:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So don't do hand-cut dovetails, do like some sort of jigged up machine thing so it's always the same, it's really quick.
00:44:58
Mary
I mean.
00:45:03
Mary
Yeah. If you're going to be making a shit ton of them. Yeah, absolutely. Unless you hate yourself. So yeah, but also like things like, uh, like modular design where components can be like easily swapped over place that could also add versatility.
00:45:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
00:45:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've done that. I did that with my everyday trays. Every in tray interior was different and swappable.
00:45:25
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:45:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I did that as a design idea.
00:45:30
Mary
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:30
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:45:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You could just like take six screws out, replace the tray. And i would that's a great point.
00:45:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Did you, did you feel like that was a successful design? Not for you as it, that as the designer, but for the end user.
00:45:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, the people who own them. and i i've so I sold a whole bunch. I kind of forgot who all has them. They've contacted me years, two years now later, and they're like, I use it every day.
00:45:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It sits here. This is how I use it. I love every bit of it. And I i kind of forgot. And when I hear that, I'm like, wow, I guess I got it right with the usability for the end user, even though I don't, I don't own one.
00:46:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:46:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:46:05
Mary
It also, the ability to so to like swap things out, like that also makes your work more accessible for a broader audience, if that's important to you, if you're trying to sell something.
00:46:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Nope.
00:46:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that bad?
00:46:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
00:46:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Interesting.
00:46:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Mary, how important is innovation? If you're an artist, do you think that's important? Or is that really only if you're doing 100 1000 units of something?
00:46:29
Mary
Innovation.
00:46:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, that's one of the cornerstones, right of industrial design, and I'm just trying to apply it to what we we think about
00:46:37
Mary
It depends who you ask. I mean there's some people who are perfectly content with what they have, but then there's some woodworkers who I think that we are friends with and this podcast is carried towards who really like to push the boundaries and they like to think of, and it doesn't have to be technological innovations obviously, like there's different ways that you can design a piece, there's different ways to approach something and that maybe it encroaches on the art side, I don't know, DVD, but Yes, I think it's, I i think it's important.
00:47:08
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Now I'm trying to think of who you have in mind right now.
00:47:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and it
00:47:09
Mary
Depends.
00:47:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
innovation and technology. I guess this speaks to like, oh, cat, like CNC blazers.
00:47:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
is it is it is it Go
00:47:23
Mary
Yeah. Oh, good.
00:47:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right?
00:47:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Different ways to accomplish things like doing in late, in the old days, inlays were always scribed by hand and inlaid with wood. These days, uh, I've been taking epoxy and loading it with a brass powder and and like flowing that into a CNC cut pattern.
00:47:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's innovation.
00:47:41
Whatwhat in the Eruq
so So what I'm hearing in the examples that you're giving and what I'm thinking about the examples that you gave Mary earlier of like the iPhone, for example, having a specific aesthetic um and maybe in part because of innovation.
00:47:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Is it innovating for the sake of innovating or is it finding your voice? Like how different are those things? Because you can find a voice in manufacturing. There are people with anesthetic that create objects in wood at the scale of hundreds or thousands.
00:48:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, hold on. It's in when you say innovating to innovate, I don't know what you mean, but innovation usually solves a problem.
00:48:20
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Change changing thing. Oh. Okay, that's fair. I think that's that is the ideal definition, but people change things just for the sake of doing it differently.
00:48:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're saying like, okay. Okay.
00:48:31
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And then they they label it innovation.
00:48:34
Mary
Mm hmm.
00:48:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You know,
00:48:36
Mary
Yeah, I don't really have a good answer to that. Like, I think it's both, to be honest, like there are ah i you can you can do both, like you could have it be your voice, but also that is kind of the new innovation.
00:48:54
Mary
I don't know. I don't have a good answer for that, to be honest.
00:48:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Okay. This is getting diffused and like hard to put my finger on. So I'm going to shut this fucking shit down.
00:49:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You're welcome.
00:49:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, no, but I, I, we're not.
00:49:05
Mary
But if we were sorry, if we were talking about technology wise, things like the Shaper Origin are absolutely like innovative new products in the field of woodworking.
00:49:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:49:17
Mary
I don't want to speak to the design side, but the product side of tools and the kinds of tools that woodworkers work with. I i would say that is extremely innovative.
00:49:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
so Hmm. I want to formulate this question. Properly.
00:49:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You mean the...
00:49:35
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And I don't know that I'm going to do that.
00:49:36
Mary
It's gonna be 10 questions.
00:49:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you You mean your next 15 questions?
00:49:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It it will. It will. Yeah, exactly. No. So when you say that I'm thinking of Lee Nielsen, for example, they Tom has not changed a lot about the designs that have been around for a hundred years.
00:49:55
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And yet he has built a very successful business.
00:50:02
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Doing the things that have existed for a long period of time. Like I don't know how much in this, I'm speaking from a point of ignorance as far as like metallurgy and production goes, I don't know how much innovating they're doing and yet they are successful in this space.
00:50:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think they've done a lot of innovating based on the videos I've seen, their their production method.
00:50:19
Mary
Mm hmm.
00:50:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay.
00:50:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Go ahead. In what way?
00:50:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
all I've seen that, I've seen CNC, I've seen like production, like I've seen innovation on every step of the manufacturing process to make it.
00:50:27
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.
00:50:32
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, I'm not trying. I'm not trying to shit on Lee Nielsen by any stretch of the imagination.
00:50:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, I know, I know, I know, I know, no, no, but.
00:50:36
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I've been there for, and you know, a number of years. I'm just curious it from an end user perspective, it doesn't seem like they've changed anything and yet they are successful.
00:50:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I see.
00:50:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So is it? Is that an aberration? Or is there also a lane there for for lack of a better way to phrase it the carrying on of tradition?
00:50:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The end product hasn't been innovated, but the met the way to get there has been highly innovated.
00:51:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay. Okay. All right.
00:51:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think that's what we're talking about.
00:51:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's fair.
00:51:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The end product's the same, because it's it's pretty much at its maximum fitness.
00:51:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:51:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That plane does exactly what you want it to do in the way, like I'm not sure you can improve it much.
00:51:18
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. That's fair.
00:51:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But how to get there can be vastly improved, and they've done that, and that's why they're around today.
00:51:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's fair.
00:51:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that Sorry, that's my answer.
00:51:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
so Okay.
00:51:27
Mary
Yeah, it's also tricky because like their audience is but like, in comparison, a very niche ah world of woodworking compared to, you know, larger companies like Apple or Dyson or whatever.
00:51:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:51:36
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure, sure.
00:51:42
Mary
So I do think there is a there is a world in which you can stay in that lane. I mean, people buy older Stanleys because they were better quality and Yeah, tradition absolutely has a place, especially in the word working world, I will say.
00:51:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah just just My two cents, an old Stanley, is not necessarily better than Lee Nielsen.
00:52:02
Whatwhat in the Eruq
No, it's not.
00:52:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Lee Nielsen is fucking top ass quality.
00:52:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's It's it's often a lot less.
00:52:05
Mary
I meant, well, I meant compared to New Stanley's, compared to like New Stanley's, yeah.
00:52:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:52:08
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Well, sure, sure.
00:52:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that.
00:52:10
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay to Mary bringing it back to woodworking two more questions before we switch gears into our second segment How much industrial design principles? Those five the four pillars how much how often do you see them in the woodworking world?
00:52:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you see them routinely used by people or is it super rare? You notice it. Is this a rare bird or is this something already going on?
00:52:35
Mary
The one that I noticed the most is aesthetics.
00:52:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I
00:52:38
Mary
I think that it's really, people like to showcase their voice in the way, in like their pieces of furniture that they create. So you can look at something and be like, oh yeah, that was created by Eric, that was created by Paul.
00:52:49
Mary
Like that brand identity is definitely something that's carried over. The other three,
00:52:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, point. I think we're doing it unconsciously.
00:53:00
Mary
what? Oh, well, yeah, of course, but you want to make your own voice.
00:53:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the Yeah.
00:53:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
i i would I would agree with that, yeah. Yeah.
00:53:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but I never see in the one case, the brand identity is a is a goal. And with me and Eric, it just, it just percolates out of us naturally, we can't even help ourselves.
00:53:11
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:53:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I think I feel like there's an intent there versus
00:53:18
Mary
I didn't love that freezing.
00:53:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
i That was so good, I wish this was a visual format.
00:53:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What? I used the word percolate.
00:53:25
Mary
Just percolates out of us.
00:53:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I didn't say ooze.
00:53:27
Whatwhat in the Eruq
How is Bert? Yeah, percolate was a perfectly, perfectly acceptable word.
00:53:33
Mary
Just, okay.
00:53:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
He didn't say we're moist with our ideas. Like what?
00:53:36
Mary
oh my god
00:53:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're not supposed to say that word, Eric.
00:53:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So I just want to point that out that in one case, it's a, it's a, it's a directive and the other case, it just sort of happens because you're the one person making all your shit and that's just what you like.
00:53:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So, sorry, Mary, you see aesthetics. Is there something else you see or are we missing an opera?
00:54:03
Mary
Functionality for sure.
00:54:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:54:05
Mary
Functionality is probably the one that would like work with the most people because what's the point of creating a piece of furniture that doesn't function unless it's like truly a piece of art that the point of it is not to function or whatever, but yeah, functionality, it has to work.
00:54:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:54:18
Mary
It has to, yeah.
00:54:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you think we're missing an opportunity here? Like if all of us were went to industrial design school and all of us went through the classes and understood it as deeply as you do, do you feel like there's a missed opportunity here for us to seize on?
00:54:34
Mary
Yeah, I think that learning about the different sides of how to create a product and object is really helpful. It's not always necessary, but I think that more I'm gonna come off as like an education snob though.
00:54:51
Whatwhat in the Eruq
no please do that's my favorite mary
00:54:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go for it, Miri.
00:54:54
Mary
No, I just think that the more you can educate yourself about the history and the way different designers approach problems is always a good thing. You can always learn from it.
00:55:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Well, you've certainly opened my eyes to industrial design as a field, totally. So I definitely want to give you props.
00:55:11
Whatwhat in the Eruq
But you also like, you knew some of the industrial standards before Mary opened your eyes to some of those things, right? Like you knew a dining table was 30 inches tall.
00:55:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You knew a chair was 16 inches at height.
00:55:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i did I did, but Mary crystallized it as like, this is this this is the formula of good industrial design. And this is why it's so hard.
00:55:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's fair. That's fair.
00:55:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And this is, and and ah she got me thinking like, wow, that's really admirable. I used to think mass produced stuff is kind of like garbage, like, yeah.
00:55:42
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:55:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know? But she really opened my eyes to the fact that this represents an incredibly difficult design problem and there's so much to be learned if you're the type of person who can crack these nuts.
00:55:54
Whatwhat in the Eruq
No, I... These nuts. ah they so Anyway, your point is exactly right and I'm not trying to take anything away from Mary.
00:55:58
Mary
Oh my god, you guys. Fucking children.
00:56:10
Whatwhat in the Eruq
what oh he's gone he's toast what what i what i was trying to get at was uh i don't even fucking remember anymore it's gone these fucking nuts no no okay all right all right all right so the the
00:56:13
Mary
I hate you both.
00:56:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry, I
00:56:25
Whatwhat in the Eruq
the education of industrial design is really important. And I wasn't trying to say that she didn't illuminate those things for both of us, ah to a larger degree. But there are standards that I think, especially when we're hobbyists, or just coming into the trades, that we don't think about because we're just like, well, whatever, that's the industry, I'm making bespoke objects. But there's several hundred years of history as to why we've decided why a table is 30 inches tall because it's the people have done that research and that work for you.
00:56:53
Mary
reasons behind it.
00:56:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:57:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So get a book of standards and consume the things that are useful to you. That's the point I'm trying to get at.
00:57:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good point.
00:57:06
Mary
Yeah, and your
00:57:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And also these nuts.
00:57:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:57:08
Mary
You're, you're welcome. You're welcome to make a table that's not 30 inches tall, but people like familiarity and comfort. So if you're going to create something that is so far out of the box, like, sure, good luck selling it.
00:57:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, they do.
00:57:17
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
00:57:22
Mary
Oh, if that is your goal to sell it.
00:57:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you bet you better make your chairs a lot taller.
00:57:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Well, right. ah Right.
00:57:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so All right.
00:57:26
Mary
Yeah.
00:57:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like, again, like, I can't necessarily identify an iPhone, but I can identify what's not an iPhone.
00:57:32
Mary
Yeah.
00:57:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Similarly, if I sit, if I sit at a, ah ah if I sit at a dining table, that's 30 inches or 29 inches, I don't think about it.
00:57:36
Mary
Paul's flipping the bird.
00:57:42
Whatwhat in the Eruq
If I sit at one that's 32, I go, Oh, this feels really weird.
00:57:46
Mary
Yeah.
00:57:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Something is off about it.
00:57:48
Mary
Yes, exactly. And that's what brings me back to my point of good design goes unnoticed because bad examples really stick out to you.
00:57:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Sure, sure.
00:57:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Great point. No, I follow all that great point.
00:57:58
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay.
00:57:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Last question, Mary, before we switch gears away from industrial design, does that hold art back? Do all these constraints about, you know, this is what people like.
00:58:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is what's normal. This is what's worked. This is, you know, it's like constraint, constraint, constraint. Does that hold artistic discovery and exploration back?
00:58:23
Mary
I don't think so. like I think the point of art is creating one-of-a-kind pieces, and I just don't think that the two fields are related necessarily.
00:58:36
Mary
I think they can learn from each other, but I don't think that they are in conflict.
00:58:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:58:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
See, i I initially thought they were in conflict, that the more constraints you have, the less broad you can think, but you bring up a good point that maybe they're they're about different things that are not necessarily related.
00:58:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And I think, I feel that if you fuck it up, it's a reflection of yourself.
00:58:57
Mary
I mean, they couldn't be more different in terms of, sorry, or in terms of audience, like you were trying to please so many people with this kind of object and art, which is not always the case.
00:59:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Well, you're trying to please one person some often.
00:59:09
Mary
Yeah, it's, and it's also maybe a more a reflection of yourself.
00:59:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow. Powerful Mary. That's a great answer, by the way. Holy shit.
00:59:19
Mary
oh
00:59:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good answer.
00:59:20
Mary
Thanks.
00:59:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like that.
00:59:25
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's what I took away from that.
00:59:26
Mary
Yes, accurate.
00:59:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Eric.
00:59:30
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You know what else is a reflection of ourselves?
00:59:33
Mary
I did not like that at all. Taking my deep answer.
00:59:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
yeah And we can turn that, we can turn that, we can turn that into the sweet, sweet cheddar because we have another sponsor on this episode, which is yet again, William T.
00:59:41
Mary
Making a joke.
00:59:46
Mary
Oh my god.
00:59:52
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Burkle of WTB Woodworking. I don't know if his middle initial is T, but I'm assuming that it is because the W and the B are there. What do you think his middle name is? Do you think it's?
01:00:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tomato.
01:00:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
To me.
01:00:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
William Tomatillo Burkle it's absolutely that of WTB woodworking and you guys should go to his.com ah He has all of the things woodworking and lumber No guys, hey, hey William Theodore Burkle loves
01:00:08
Mary
It's definitely that!
01:00:17
Mary
Oh my god.
01:00:35
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Woodworking, and he has, he has Festool, he's got SawStop, he's got Fuji sprays.
01:00:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Theodore
01:00:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And what else do you need to know about WTB Woodworking? He does some kiln drying services from time to time and ah custom CNC work, which is, I believe that stands for Christopher numbers.
01:01:03
Mary
No, no, no.
01:01:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
No, it's cool.
01:01:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:01:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
guy I'm just out here on a fucking island. You watch me instead of engaging with this fucking ad read. It's great.
01:01:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, I asked you before the show if you want to review the ad read.
01:01:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
ah
01:01:15
Mary
i e yeah And no, I'm just going to do it.
01:01:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, mister, I'm just gonna wing it.
01:01:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
hey Hey, what are we doing right now? What are we doing right now?
01:01:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mister, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna fucking wing it, mister.
01:01:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
We're doing a fucking ad read.
01:01:27
Whatwhat in the Eruq
William Trifon Burkle has as WTV woodworking and you should support him because he's a wonderful human being.
01:01:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Trifon?
01:01:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, oh God.
01:01:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
The end.
01:01:40
Mary
Oh my god.
01:01:41
Whatwhat in the Eruq
He's never coming back, guys.
01:01:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:01:42
Whatwhat in the Eruq
He's not coming back for another ad read.
01:01:42
Mary
I'm so sorry, Bill.
01:01:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Mary, I was talking to Eric earlier. I don't remember what day and he's like, well, we have to, you know, we can't do our Hallmark story again with Chaz and Jeff.
01:01:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What did you say? You said fucking Jeff and Chaz.
01:01:59
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I did say Jeff and Chaz. I was close.
01:02:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I, it's, it's Will and Chad.
01:02:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I was close.
01:02:04
Mary
It's definitely Chad and Will, yeah.
01:02:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hey, you know what? I was halfway, I was like a third of the way there.
01:02:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Chaz and Jeff.
01:02:12
Mary
Short-term memory, not your strongest suit.
01:02:14
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Jeff.
01:02:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, God bless.
01:02:17
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hey. And William Tedifrin Berkel.
01:02:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Okay. Tomato. Okay. Our our so our second segment is going to be today.
01:02:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're in the spirit of industrial design. What is your favorite and your least favorite mass produce item that you own in your home.
01:02:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. We're going to start with your favorite and then we're going to bitch.
01:02:45
Mary
So something that just works that doesn't really isn't an issue. It just kind of does what it needs to do.
01:02:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Who wants to go first?
01:02:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'll go first. I already talked about it, but I'm i'm gonna i'm gonna add to it. ah First of all, my 1950s Hotpoint stove, people are like, you cook on that?
01:03:08
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mmm.
01:03:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's got four, it's got four compartments on the, so it's got four burners and four compartments on the front. And you say four compartments, what the hell? Usually an oven is just like one big compartment, right? It's got four and they're tiny.
01:03:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Only one is an oven. The other three are storage. And they're like, how do you cook in there? Dude, ain't no thing. I cook for 12 people, 14 people. I've cooked Thanksgiving in there.
01:03:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's all about just making it work. And that thing is a workhorse. It never, ever breaks. One time in 20 years, I had to replace one part.
01:03:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Come on.
01:03:45
Whatwhat in the Eruq
real Real question.
01:03:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's amazing.
01:03:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
but I mean, it is amazing a hundred percent, but real question though, when you moved into that house and that stove was there, what was the learning curve on that stove?
01:03:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was low, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I had a panic attack when I first saw it.
01:04:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You're sure. as Sure. Sure. So I guess, I guess that's what I'm wondering about good design.
01:04:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm like, what?
01:04:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I feel like good design now, like in air quotes, quote unquote, good design is kind of uniformity. Like you can go from one brand to the next and you kind of know how it's going to work.
01:04:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:15
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Whereas back then, like you got a, whatever the fuck ceramic stove that is.
01:04:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you got to learn it and you got to learn it.
01:04:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You got to learn it and it takes, it takes a couple of tries, but then once you know it, you know it.
01:04:21
Mary
Mm hmm.
01:04:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:04:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And it always works.
01:04:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so it's got it's got about 50 different push buttons on the front of it.
01:04:27
Mary
Yeah.
01:04:32
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
01:04:32
Mary
What?
01:04:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah there's four but
01:04:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And all of them are like worn away. You don't know what button does what.
01:04:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So there, oh, nothing's labeled anymore, Eric. Um, there's four burners, right? There's left front and rear, right front and rear. And each burner has a bank of six switches where you push them for different heat levels.
01:04:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's like, it's like super fucking hot, kind of hot, not that hot.
01:04:50
Mary
You need to send me a picture of this.
01:04:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Fucking amazing. It's. Is. that
01:04:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know what I mean?
01:04:57
Mary
Oh my God, that is crazy. yeah
01:04:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but they don't break. I mean, all you do is you push it in and you turn it off with another button. And there's like buttons all over and people are like, what are all these buttons? And I'm like, dude, it's not that hard.
01:05:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like pick your burner, find the bank of buttons, pick the button you want.
01:05:11
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
01:05:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Once you figure it out, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, my second my favorite set my second favorite is something I bought with some money my mom gave me when I started college. She gave me $2,100 for my 21st birthday and I spent it on a stereo and speakers.
01:05:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I bought,
01:05:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mmm.
01:05:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Of course, any dumb you know college student spends their money like that. I bought a Klipsch brand ah speakers and an Onkyo receiver and an Onkyo CD player and tape player back in the day.
01:05:41
Mary
Mm.
01:05:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um All of it works today, flawlessly, 20 something years later.
01:05:47
Mary
Wow.
01:05:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Never had a problem with it because I bought the highest quality I could get electronics and the speakers.
01:05:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mm-hmm. Yep.
01:05:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Man, we bumped those speakers. The whole house is rattling all the time, all the time. And I was like, I had these since I was in college because it was just a different animal back then.
01:06:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They made things that didn't fail.
01:06:10
Mary
yeah
01:06:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They didn't have planned obsolescence back then. It was the opposite.
01:06:15
Whatwhat in the Eruq
In the 1910s when you were in college, yeah, those they hadn't invented that yet.
01:06:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Bitch. Fuck you. It was the early nineties. Okay. Your turn.
01:06:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay, so i I have two examples. um Only because the first example, I'm not 1000% sure that they were industrial, like mass produced, there is a small chance that they weren't.
01:06:43
Whatwhat in the Eruq
um But I have
01:06:44
Mary
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
01:06:45
Whatwhat in the Eruq
cocktail glasses that were my great great grandmothers. And they're they're lovely. Both of you have had drinks out of them. they're They're up on the top shelf of the bar. They've got this cobalt blue stem.
01:06:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And they're all the same form.
01:06:56
Mary
Mm.
01:06:58
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And they all have the exact same etching, which is why I imagine that they are mass produced. But glass being glass, they have shifted over the hundred in 1520 years that they've been around.
01:07:11
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And so they're all like, a little bit off, ah like perfectly perpendicular, or they're just like slightly fucked in the right kind of way.
01:07:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I love it.
01:07:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that.
01:07:20
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And that like, they're just they're, they're perfect. And I keep expecting like, at some point, they're just gonna get broken, you know, by somebody. um And that's fine, because they they get used and loved. And like, part of the weirdness about them is what I love about them.
01:07:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm.
01:07:34
Mary
They were probably mass produced, but hand blown mass produced.
01:07:34
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Um,
01:07:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So yeah and and that's, I don't know enough about glass to understand how that process works. It could be a thing where like, when they were made, those people were like, how we view our cult of woodworkers now of like, ah, well, you know, we're mass producing things, but they are handmade.
01:07:52
Mary
Yeah.
Design Perfection and Sentimental Value
01:07:56
Mary
Is there a punty on the bottom?
01:07:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
um
01:07:57
Mary
So like a little bump, ah like, yeah.
01:08:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
There is a hollow on the bottom.
01:08:02
Mary
Yes, yeah, okay, so they were, yeah, they probably were hand-blown mass-produced.
01:08:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
01:08:07
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay. and And that's why I'm like, I don't know. So, so my other example is I have a belt that literally several months ago broke, um, for the, it was just the stitching that broke.
01:08:20
Mary
Mm, gaining some weight?
01:08:22
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And this belt, I, yeah yeah, you know, it burst at the seams. Uh, this belt, I was
01:08:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Mary, he's not the one who broke his chair tonight.
01:08:30
Mary
I was trying, I was trying to make you feel better.
01:08:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
i I will say this, I found that belt in a lost and found bin and in CYO in seventh grade, and I have worn it every single day since whatever year that was, 1997.
01:08:40
Mary
Oh wow.
01:08:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
seven
01:08:47
Mary
Every day, really?
01:08:48
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh, that was my every that was my work belt. I wore it every, every single day in the leather source, the buckle still works.
01:08:51
Mary
That's crazy.
01:08:55
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Everything about that still works. It's the stitching where the the loop that holds the buckle on meets the main belt that gave way and I still have it because I'm like I'll repair it at some point.
01:09:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
ah But like the belt is perfect. It's like quarter inch thick leather. You know, like it's, it's, it's worn through rain and like, you can see the spot that's worn away from where I put the tape measure for, you know, 15, 20 years.
01:09:12
Mary
Mm-hmm.
01:09:15
Mary
Yeah.
01:09:20
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So like the thing just gets the job done.
01:09:24
Mary
yeah
01:09:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I just need to repair the stitching on it.
01:09:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. So your great, your great Grammy's glasses in your belt.
01:09:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
01:09:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
01:09:30
Mary
Nice.
01:09:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary.
01:09:32
Mary
Mine is more ID focused, I guess. So like the one thing that came to my mind immediately of like what is a perfectly designed object is the LEGO, the LEGO block.
01:09:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yes.
01:09:48
Mary
I think that it is so simple in its design, but it is so clear what it, what you do.
01:09:53
Whatwhat in the Eruq
God damn, that's a good example.
01:09:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh god, good answer.
01:09:56
Mary
It's so, it's immediate of like, it's got these specific holes. It's got, it fits into the other piece exactly like this. All right. All right, guys. so
01:10:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is it moist? ah Okay.
01:10:09
Mary
It is not a voice, but it does hurt like a bitch when you step on it.
01:10:13
Whatwhat in the Eruq
that's I feel that same.
01:10:16
Mary
But i in my that's the first thing that comes to mind ah when I think of like a perfectly designed and simple item. And the next one I have is not perfectly designed or simple, but I just had to say it for nostalgia's sake, which I think nostalgia does have a part in this conversation that we didn't discuss.
01:10:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
01:10:32
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay.
01:10:32
Mary
But I will never give up my clear N64 game controller because
01:10:38
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Oh yeah.
01:10:39
Mary
I loved the clear fad that went around in that period.
01:10:40
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep.
01:10:43
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yep.
01:10:44
Mary
I had the clear Game cute or gape i'm sorry ah game Boy, the Game Controller, like the clear furniture that's happening.
01:10:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mm-hmm.
01:10:51
Mary
But the N64 for me, like, I think that it was just, ah it was like maybe a little over the top, but I loved it for being over the top.
01:10:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:11:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I
Woodworking as Adult LEGO
01:11:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
love it, Mary.
01:11:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Okay, okay.
01:11:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Regarding your first answer, Mary, I have two suitcases of Legos from 1910 when I was a kid in my basement.
01:11:07
Mary
ah
01:11:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I not i mean, I'm joking about the 1910, but I'm not joking about the two suitcases of my Legos from being a kid. I can't i can't get rid of them. I keep hoping i keep hoping someone's going to want them.
01:11:22
Mary
thank And kids still play with them. Like kids will still play as much as like they love screens.
01:11:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, yeah.
01:11:29
Mary
It's something that they can figure out really well.
01:11:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, tell me that I'm wrong. Woodworking is Legos for adults.
01:11:36
Mary
hey
01:11:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell me I'm wrong.
01:11:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
This I've I know I've heard this and I can't disagree. I've also heard like people who love puzzles love woodworking. I love neither of those things. So I have I have nothing.
01:11:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, come on.
01:11:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:11:49
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I can no I can I can I can absolutely see the draw of Legos and I get it.
01:11:49
Mary
I love both of those.
01:11:55
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I just never had the opportunity to fall in love with them. I was never like we never had them around when I was a kid.
01:11:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Eric, you would have fucking loved it. You would have gone Hulk line and sinker for them.
01:12:00
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I'm sure I would have. Yeah.
01:12:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Trust me.
01:12:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, I was too busy playing clear and 64.
01:12:05
Mary
Yeah, I i consider LEGO as my own true way into architecture.
01:12:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:12:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Totally. All right.
01:12:14
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Gateway drug. Okay.
Frustrations with Modern Design
01:12:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's an object you have in your house that was mass produced and you fucking hate? I'll go first. My laser printer. I hate it.
01:12:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Interesting.
01:12:26
Mary
I was just looking at mine too.
01:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I,
01:12:28
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Interesting.
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I hate, I hate that motherfucker. I need it, but I hate it because every time.
01:12:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hold on. Like laser printer like paper printer.
01:12:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:12:39
Mary
yeah I got a printer.
01:12:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:12:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I got a bro. I'm going to Dick. Of course I do. It's a brother. I'm going to, I'm going to tell you right now. I'm going to out this fucking company.
01:12:40
Whatwhat in the Eruq
ah You guys still have fucking printers.
01:12:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a brother. It's a brother HLL 32,700 CDW bitch. Okay. So it's fine. They sell it to you for real cheap.
01:12:52
Mary
They're definitely gonna listen to this.
01:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Mary, talk about planned obsolescence. They sell it to you for super cheap. They're like, Oh, lazy printer, $150.
01:13:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
By the way, the ink, every time you refill the ink cartridges, $200.
01:13:10
Mary
The ink.
01:13:15
Mary
It's so expensive.
01:13:15
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Wait, what the fuck? Are you serious?
01:13:16
Mary
Yeah, it's so expensive.
01:13:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric. Yes.
01:13:18
Whatwhat in the Eruq
This is why I don't own a printer.
01:13:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric's,
01:13:20
Mary
And they they it doesn't cost that much to produce. They drive the price up so much.
01:13:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
No, of course not. But that's all that's all like um like each cartridge has to be, like they all have chips in them now where they have to be programmed to their own printer, right?
01:13:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct, correct, correct.
01:13:33
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Fuck those guys.
01:13:34
Mary
Yep.
01:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you have a choice. Do you buy a new printer every single time you need new ink? Which is the same price pretty much as buying new ink cartridges.
01:13:43
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
01:13:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or do you buy cheap shitty knockoff ink cartridges from China like I do and then your printouts come out looking like you're messed up with like
01:13:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Like a fucking dot matrix.
01:13:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, it's terrible. Like my daughter asked me to print something for her and she's like, what is this? Because like my face is like pink and it's like every, all the colors messed up because the, all the, everything's wrong about it.
01:14:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm like, I hate you printer. I hate you. I hate that you're trying to make me spend $200 every time I need ink.
01:14:16
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I can you.
01:14:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Can you, just just for funsies, I don't know what you're using a printer for, but like if you have to send paper goods to somebody, can you, just to see what would happen, get a dot matrix printer, and like like with the perforations where you have to peel off the side and just see how people would react?
01:14:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, I love those.
01:14:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
01:14:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Because that I said something about a dot matrix, Mary's giving me the look like she doesn't know what a dot matrix printer is.
01:14:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, you know what a dot matrix printer is.
01:14:44
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Ah. Do you not remember when we were like, when we were you, she might be at the cutoff though.
01:14:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a little, come on, Mary.
01:14:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Cause you're what three, four years younger than me.
01:14:54
Mary
I don't know. I'm 91.
01:14:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. So four years younger. So there were before we had like sheets, paper would come on a roll and it had the little like perforations on the side with the holes and it would just, and so you, every time it would come out in a roll and you would have to tear the sheet and then tear the holes off the side.
01:14:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:15:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and it had holes. Cause the...
01:15:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
01:15:14
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You don't remember this shit, do you? It's, ah, we're gonna bring it back.
01:15:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, I do.
01:15:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Let's bring back Dot Matrix printers.
01:15:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But you know, the best part of the Dot Matrix printer is it made like a beat. It was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, I was like banging boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, along with my dot magic sprinter.
01:15:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Uh-huh, yep, yeah.
01:15:27
Mary
What's this bee boxing printer?
01:15:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
i I can't wait until I make a soundboard for this show and that's gonna be our new opening theme song. It's just Paul beatboxing.
01:15:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, that's what I hate.
01:15:46
Mary
Oh my god.
01:15:47
Whatwhat in the Eruq
All right, all right ah the thing that I hate the most in my house, and this is not even close to to a struggle, is this, not that table, but right behind it, there's a filing cabinet back there.
01:15:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Who's next?
01:16:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
and This is a filing cabinet that has that was at my mother's for 20 years, and then when I was in college, I needed a filing cabinet to keep like my passport and social security card.
01:16:12
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So I took that thing. And I have hated it every fucking day since my early 20s. And I had still have not replaced it because I can't bring myself to spend money on a filing cabinet when it still works.
01:16:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why do you hate it so much?
01:16:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So it like Because it's like the construction, it's all just like press board, like quarter inch, like low density fiberboard faced with like bullshit plastic oak.
01:16:34
Mary
Hmm.
01:16:37
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And the like everything, the the runners are metal. And just everything about it is the like the lowest quality bullshit that you could possibly have bought.
01:16:47
Mary
It's not a metal filing cabinet?
01:16:47
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And no, it's it's it's fake oak.
01:16:49
Mary
Oh. Okay.
01:16:51
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And it's just it's one of those things where it's like, It could not have possibly been cheaper to buy when my mother bought it, but it still is working. And a filing cabinet is a thing I give so few fucks about that it's like, why would I waste money on a filing cabinet?
01:17:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, important note, if anyone's looking to rip off Eric's identity, his social security ah and passport are in this piece of shit.
01:17:14
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's right there. It's right there.
01:17:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So when you, ah you.
01:17:17
Mary
That's true, I got- I have a key to your house so I'll i'll distribute it to everyone.
01:17:19
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah, you have a key to my house. Many people have slept in this room, so like you guys know where it's at.
01:17:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Shit, I missed opportunity.
01:17:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's fine, you passed out drunkenly on the couch, so.
01:17:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, good point.
01:17:32
Mary
Next week, Eric gets a lot of fraud emails.
01:17:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, what do you.
01:17:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, what do you hate?
01:17:38
Mary
um So my example is actually one that is constantly cited as good industrial design and I disagree because it pisses me off and that is a USB.
01:17:50
Mary
People are like, oh, it's so intuitive.
01:17:51
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Hmm.
01:17:52
Mary
There's one side that is like, as empty in the other side, like the information gets read. Every time, every time I put it into my computer, it's always the wrong one.
01:17:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:18:01
Mary
And then the one after that, it's always the wrong one again after that.
01:18:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:18:04
Mary
So I have to go back to the one previously, which somehow didn't work.
01:18:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:18:08
Mary
That makes me so mad.
01:18:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:18:10
Mary
I was like, why can't this just be like a USB-C where it's just a hole? Just give me the hole. I don't need to like align the whatever. All right, you guys need to stop. making these faces. I guess I have to stop saying whole so much on this podcast.
01:18:21
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's okay, this is an audio format. You've said, you've talked about a lot of holes this episode, buddy.
01:18:26
Mary
It's industrial design, that's what happens.
01:18:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah She used the word moist.
01:18:29
Mary
I did not, you did.
01:18:31
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You, I'm pretty sure you did.
01:18:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but
01:18:32
Whatwhat in the Eruq
The record will show that you use the word Moist.
01:18:33
Mary
You guys are gaslighting me hardcore.
01:18:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:18:39
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I will second that USBs are entirely in somehow.
01:18:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, insufferable.
01:18:44
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I don't know how they did it, but it's always the wrong way the first time.
01:18:44
Mary
It's so annoying. Yes, it's so annoying.
01:18:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Always.
01:18:48
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Always. That's fair.
01:18:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then they wear out if you've if you've plugged them too many times.
01:18:52
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah?
01:18:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you've plugged the hole too many times, the hole wears out.
01:18:56
Mary
Yes.
01:18:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not good.
01:18:57
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That's a common problem.
01:19:01
Mary
Oh my god, you guys.
01:19:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Mary, Mary, Mary.
01:19:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
It's okay.
01:19:03
Mary
Ugh.
01:19:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Everybody stopped listening after the ad read, so nobody's listening to this part anyway.
01:19:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Have you had it where you plug a device into one USB on your computer and it's fine. It recognizes you plug it into a different USB on the same computer. It doesn't recognize.
01:19:17
Mary
Yes, yeah, there's something there's something wrong with the port I guess I have no idea but It's so annoying It's so annoying It's I try to think of the times where I'd like literally audibly yell like what the fuck like why why That cannot be sure
01:19:18
Whatwhat in the Eruq
What is that about?
01:19:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I want to, I want to break shit when that happens. Oh, good. That's a great answer.
01:19:36
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mary, Mary, that's the first time I think you've ever said fuck on this podcast and I'm personally offended.
01:19:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric Eric Eric we got a record Mary being like what the fuck and start the podcast with that okay holy god okay what a mess we are at one hour and 20 minutes I don't know we just
01:19:45
Whatwhat in the Eruq
ah Mary, my mother listens to this podcast, Mary.
01:19:50
Mary
ahha ah Okay.
01:19:51
Whatwhat in the Eruq
She doesn't, there's no fucking way. She's made it an hour 20 into this podcast.
01:19:53
Mary
You've said you've said much worse things than me. Oh, man.
01:20:02
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Is this the longest that we've done?
01:20:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh yeah, it got out of hand today. I don't know what happened.
01:20:08
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I love it.
01:20:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary's like, let's do an episode on industrial design.
01:20:08
Mary
Oh, man.
01:20:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And yeah who knows what happened.
01:20:13
Mary
I've got a lot of passion, I'm sorry.
Changes and Future of the Podcast
01:20:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:20:16
Mary
But I, ah um I guess I should.
01:20:18
Mary
So I want to mention, Paul and Eric already know this, obviously, but to our listeners, ah this year in 2025, I'm looking at my schedule and it is so busy and so chaotic that I am going to be taking a step away, not completely from the podcast, but I just won't be able to record as frequently as possible.
01:20:39
Mary
So I will absolutely still be a guest on and be ah able to annoy these two who will endlessly make fun of me.
01:20:45
Whatwhat in the Eruq
not Not a guest, not a guest. Oh well, yes, that part, not a guest.
01:20:47
Mary
That's true.
01:20:49
Whatwhat in the Eruq
A consistent ah third chair, but when you have the space and time availability to be in the third chair.
01:20:52
Mary
Yes.
01:20:58
Mary
Yes, and I expect every time they will make fun of me for asking for definitions.
01:21:03
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Obviously.
01:21:04
Mary
It's fine, but at least I can, I'm predictable.
01:21:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
avi
01:21:08
Mary
But ah yeah, when I am on in the future, I will always be excited to hear everyone's reaction. So yeah, it's it's been a good year.
01:21:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Excellent, Mary.
01:21:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have a lot going on and I bet it's going to be a relief to not constantly hear us two jokers being like, Mary, what can you record?
01:21:23
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah.
01:21:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, what can you, how about Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary. Right. Like, yeah, I just think, yeah, it makes sense. Right. But it's not, it's not goodbye.
01:21:37
Mary
Yeah.
01:21:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's just like a little less on your plate. You don't have, yeah I mean, we're going to have Mary on all the time, but it's just not going to be every single time. So it gives her a little flexibility. Yeah.
01:21:47
Mary
Yeah, don't worry, I'll still annoy you too.
01:21:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Awesome.
01:21:49
Whatwhat in the Eruq
um You live 75 feet from my front door. Like, yes, you're gonna still annoy me.
01:21:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So ah what so what ah what I think our plan is is to have sort of a rotating third chair.
01:21:56
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And vice versa.
01:22:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you know, yeah you've probably, you' you've seen Jen there, you've seen Conrad there, you've seen Jack there in the third chair, and maybe some others. So we'll we'll see how the year goes.
01:22:10
Mary
Mira Nakashima.
01:22:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mira Nakashima. Oh my God, imagine?
01:22:15
Whatwhat in the Eruq
That would be that would be so amazing.
01:22:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Yeah, especially with the jokes we make, that will go well.
01:22:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:22:26
Whatwhat in the Eruq
I didn't swear once in that episode. I don't think that I can do that again.
01:22:28
Mary
I know, I was so proud of you. I was so proud of you.
01:22:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh God. Okay. Uh, a few more things before we go to the after show. Um, the after show today is called shoulda woulda coulda didn't because the three of us, the three of us are like thinking about all the things we should be doing right now and we just couldn't fucking pull it off. So we're going to talk about that in the after show. How you can get the after show is by subscribing to our Patreon.
01:22:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah the link is in the show notes. If you don't mind, support us on Patreon, you have access to the video feed and the after show. So I just wanna...
01:23:05
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You can see all of the times that Paul flipped us off during this episode, he subscribed to the Patreon.
01:23:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, you can see all and all the weird faces Mary makes of the two of us. OK, I do want to say if you enjoy this show while my voice cracked there, if you enjoy the show and you want us to continue, you know, growing and doing it and having more interesting conversations, we ask one thing.
01:23:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
simple. Tell your friends you like the show so that they listen to and they tell their friends because we have no way to grow this other than you. So I just ask simply, please tell people you enjoy the show. It's as simple as that.
01:23:46
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yeah. From, from a logistical standpoint, just so folks know, like growing a podcast is not like growing on YouTube or Instagram or Tik TOK or anything.
01:23:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:23:54
Whatwhat in the Eruq
There's no like for you page. I mean, there is, but nobody actually goes there. It's podcasts grow by word of mouth.
01:24:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um,
01:24:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
So if you enjoy the show, tell somebody else to enjoy the show.
01:24:05
Mary
You mean we don't get that shiny silver play button? The one that you just got?
01:24:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that Eric got.
01:24:09
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Not, not yet.
01:24:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, okay. ah Two more things. I want to thank Michael at Gillette Woodworks for supporting us on Patreon. And finally, and I realized we've never done this and a lot of podcasts do this.
01:24:18
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Big Mike?
01:24:23
Mary
Oh, who us?
01:24:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where can people find you online if they want to see your work? Like we never talk about that because we're so about the issues and the and the questions.
01:24:33
Mary
oh who us
01:24:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, we never like,
01:24:35
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Well, i'm also like how how many people listen to this podcast who don't already follow one of the three of us?
01:24:35
Mary
Oh.
01:24:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, let's just say it. So Eric, where can people find you online if they wanna see your feed, your work, your brand, everything?
01:24:50
Whatwhat in the Eruq
You can Google onlyfeet.com and that's where Ian Curtis across all platforms.
01:25:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ian Curtis, across ah Mary?
01:25:02
Mary
Uh, Wooductress, apparently?
01:25:04
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Yes.
01:25:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Moist.com.
01:25:06
Whatwhat in the Eruq
She's finally leading into it. She's finally leading in.
01:25:10
Mary
It just, it just popped up on my Instagram this morning. I was like, what is this? And that's like, oh, oh God, I forgot. But, but in reality, Kudemari Design on ah Instagram and I guess YouTube as well.
01:25:24
Whatwhat in the Eruq
No, you can also follow Wooductress, the number one erotic fan site of Mary Sia on the internet.
01:25:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, God, I'm so glad I asked this.
01:25:31
Mary
I always forgot about that.
01:25:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you can find me mostly on, let me think, mostly on Instagram at copper pig find woodworking and on my website, copper pig woodworking.
01:25:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Apparently it's not fine on my woodworking. uh on my website um okay so that's where you can find all of it because i you know what made me think of that it's like eric i saw people who were like following you and didn't didn't follow me and people following me and didn't follow you and mary or you know whatever like i and we never talk about our pages ever because we're so into the quest so i just figured hey if you're looking for us you know where to find us okay
01:26:01
Whatwhat in the Eruq
chair Sure, sure, sure, sure. That's fair.
01:26:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With that, Mary, thank you for bringing industrial design to the forefront of my brain. I appreciate how you've kind of reformed me about it. And this is why we do the podcast.
01:26:21
Mary
Yay.
01:26:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Seriously, this is why we started the podcast is to learn. Eric and I were sitting on my porch swing, I think it was one day at my house.
01:26:29
Whatwhat in the Eruq
Mm.
01:26:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I said, you know, I've always thought about doing a podcast because like, there's so many topics I'd like to talk about, not talk about to like, lecture or whack off about, about what I know, but really learn about what other people know. Like let's like open my mind. And I think this is a great example how Mary brought something to the table that I had never, ever thought about and totally opened up ah a new ah dimension for me.
01:26:55
Mary
We were all able to whack off about it.
01:26:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah With that.
01:26:59
Whatwhat in the Eruq
And on that case, we're gonna get out of here. Okay, bye.
01:27:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
mag
01:27:03
Mary
Bye!