Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
It’s Not Just Trans People Who Hate Public Bathrooms
24 Plays8 days ago
Let’s be honest: public washrooms are a space that a lot of us, whether trans or not, deeply dislike. Between the giant gaps around stall doors, the total lack of auditory privacy, and the strange amount of eye contact it’s somehow possible to make while peeing, it often feels like public bathroom design completely ignores how uncomfortable the experience actually is for the people using them.
This week, El and Kai dive into the one room we all seem to collectively hate. They unpack the history behind modern public washroom design, why so many bathrooms prioritize cost and maintenance over privacy and comfort, and how conversations around trans-inclusive washrooms are starting to reshape the way people think about public spaces more broadly.
They discuss:
• Why so many bathroom stalls have those huge gaps, and why they became standard in the first place
• How a lack of visual and auditory privacy can turn an awkward experience into something genuinely stressful for trans and non-binary people
• The emotional labour, safety calculations, and health risks that can come with navigating public washrooms
• Why some people avoid public bathrooms altogether
• Practical ways organizations can improve privacy and comfort without needing a massive renovation budget
• Why better washroom design benefits far more people than many realize
Whether you work in design, run an organization, or you’re simply someone who has ever hung a coat over a stall gap for a tiny bit of privacy, this episode explores what happens when we start designing public spaces around actual human experience instead of just efficiency.
Enjoyed this episode? Don't forget to hit Follow on Spotify, Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, and leave us a 5-star review to help more allies find these vital conversations!
Connect with us online:
🌐 Website: www.TransFocus.ca
✉️ Email: podcast@transfocus.ca
➡️ Have feedback for us? Fill in this short survey: https://podcastsurvey.scoreapp.com/
Join us on social media: LinkedIn | Instagram | TikTok | Threads | Facebook
Recommended
Transcript
Mutual Dislike of Public Washroom Aspects
00:00:05
Speaker
You know how they say that nothing unites a group of people more than the mutual dislike of somebody else? Well, that's what we're applying that logic today when it comes to washrooms, because a lot of us, whether trans or not, deeply dislike certain things about what we experience in public washrooms. And
Kai Scott on Washroom Design
00:00:24
Speaker
the answer to making it more comfortable for everyone could lie quite comfortably in the accommodations that are being sought for trans or non-binary people. Did I say binary then?
00:00:35
Speaker
Maybe be along those lines, but I kind of like it. Trans non-binary. That just get it felt weird in my mouth. Trans and non-binary people. I am, ah as always, joined by the king of washrooms, Kai Scott.
00:00:50
Speaker
Hello. Wow. Okay. Royalty in the room here. You spend so much time talking about it yeah that you basically are. Pretty much. Yeah, I guess so. I should just take that crown and wear it. probably yes How are you doing?
00:01:07
Speaker
I'm doing well. Yeah, it's beautiful sunny day. Yeah, I'm having a grand time. um
Universally Disliked Washroom Features
00:01:12
Speaker
So I feel like we should probably start with the fact that I feel like washrooms are one of the things that people kind of universally complain about when it comes to the public spaces. And so I wanted to start with the design features that are sort of collectively hated by everybody that you can think of.
00:01:32
Speaker
Oh, there are so many, but we will definitely dive into a few of them here. The big one that we hear time and time again, because we do do ah surveys, you know, facility user surveys or listening sessions. We've done many over the years, including trans and non-binary folks, but also cisgender folks, where we actually have a good sense from across the spectrum. And Time and time again, we hear those stupid gaps on the side of the door. my God. You know? Agreed. And at bottom.
00:02:10
Speaker
What? Who came up with that? Yeah. so Crazy. Yeah, there's just a lot of mystery around that and not people feeling comfortable with that because, of course, it does compromise privacy in that people can, from the outside, look on the inside In particular, it's especially egregious when the stall door is right across from the mirror. So somebody who is washing their hands or, you know, sprucing themselves up can see behind them who's in the stall and even maybe a little bit of what they're doing.
Privacy and Stall Door Gaps
00:02:45
Speaker
Maybe not everything, but certainly more than people are comfortable with. Both sides, too.
00:02:51
Speaker
When I first came to Canada, I remember being in Canada. in the airport washroom and peeing and making direct eye contact with somebody in the mirror.
00:03:03
Speaker
And both of us laughed, but I was like, this is terrible. What am I doing here? This is very odd. Questioning the sanity of this country. Well, it's really North America that specializes in these types of things. That's something that we all question occasionally. Indeed, as one should.
00:03:21
Speaker
um So yeah, those are that's a big thing that people are yeah, really concerned about or don't feel very comfortable with. um You know, there can be other things as well, like the lighting um can be poor. And as a result, it's not very clear where you have to go or or, you know, there could be like corners where things are a little bit um too dark, right? And especially corners where you can't see around and it just, yeah, doesn't create a lot of confidence. Yeah. and especially if things are really tight as well then you have to be really close to other facility users and we don't like generally to think about what we're doing in washrooms and so we don't want to really want to get close to people in those settings for for for obvious reasons so yeah those are some things one other thing i'll add into the mix before i'm sure we'll focus but um
00:04:20
Speaker
is people don't like that others can hear them. What I call auditory privacy is violated, Right. It has a little bit to do with the gaps, but fair enough I think some of it is just the kind of the echo that's in washrooms that amplifies all kinds of sounds that are happening. So, yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:04:41
Speaker
Sure. of fun um why Why is it like that? That's that's my question. that we why is it like like I had a specific moment that I told you about when we were planning for this, which is like a couple of weeks ago, ah little child popped their head under the bottom of the door when I was peeing.
00:05:02
Speaker
And like, it made me really like, it's it's a really odd, I mean, I didn't mind it was funny, but it's a really odd experience to have. And it's so common and it's like available and and able to happen pretty much in every washroom in Canada. Like it's it's in so it's so common. So like, it's obviously intentional because it's happening everywhere. So why, what what's the thought process?
00:05:27
Speaker
Right? It's a bit of explain yourself, please. for me Whichever organization decided this was the standard and then applied to every every other place. um Okay, so we dug a little bit into this in terms of the history of this. And I'm no historian. I will only give you the Coles Notes versions here and we can dig deeper beyond that if you're interested. But basically...
00:05:55
Speaker
ah especially in the past, it was very much focused on cost. So this type of material is really quick to be made. It's very cheap. It's pre-made so that you can assemble it really quickly. so there's like organizations and their costs that they're considering in this. And also there's airflow that is created by having the gaps. So you know you don't have that mildew or that kind of condensation that builds up within the stalls. So that's one other aspect of it as well. It also is quite um durable, especially for high traffic environments. And that's where you see this as like in larger institutions, like, you know, big arts venues or sports venues or big offices. These are typically these, why they're installed is to kind of be able to not buckle under all that tremendous traffic. So those are some of the things. And then I think from the people who designed them perspective, not the user experience from the designer perspective, they think, well, okay, this is a way of being able to quickly check if somebody is in the washroom in the way that the child did. Right. Right.
00:07:13
Speaker
With adults, maybe they're not as like obvious about it, you know, like sticking their entire head. But the idea being you can check if there's feet, you know, underneath.
00:07:24
Speaker
um There's also this idea of liability, where if somebody collapses in the stall, that you can be able to see if somebody has done so and then be able to offer help, right? um So those are some of the design considerations that have been, you know, part of the history of it.
00:07:44
Speaker
ah But I would say those things are shifting now to consider and incorporate the user experience, which is way more focused on privacy. Thank goodness. Yeah.
00:07:57
Speaker
That's fair. um So obviously these things can affect and do affect everybody, but there are certain washroom features that that can affect trans and non-binary people maybe more intensely. And I was wondering if you could talk about that and the sort of considerations that trans people are having to take into account with this.
Trans and Non-Binary Washroom Experiences
00:08:22
Speaker
Yeah. So there's a few dimensions that some folks may not be aware of in terms of how trans and non-binary folks use the washroom. or toilets, in some cases also urinals. And essentially, based on the bodies or the genitalia we have, we can be using them in different ways than is expected for that particular gender. And that can show up in sitting or standing to relieve oneself. So that is a dynamic that if you're in a women's washroom, you most people would not expect to see somebody standing to pee, as an example.
00:09:02
Speaker
Not to say that everybody does that, but some people still do that, and you know that's their prerogative. um But if you have gaps in those doors, people can notice that, especially at a quick glance, and then be like, wait a second, and it be disconcerting to them or baffling or you know some reaction to that person using it in a different way.
00:09:26
Speaker
Now with sitting to pee, it's a little bit different, right? Because all genders do those things. um But the the standing to pee can be kind of an outlier.
00:09:38
Speaker
There's another another aspect too to using washrooms where people might have gender affirming equipment. In particular, there some people choose to use what are called packers. So those are kind of prosthetics that create a bulge in the genital area. And that is affirming for many folks who don't have that you know ah physically.
00:10:04
Speaker
However, some of them are free floating and so they can get away from you and that could drop right in the washroom. And that is a very common thread among transmasculine folks. And so that is a really difficult experience to navigate. And so that's, again, where those gaps present a particular and unique situation and challenge for folks.
00:10:30
Speaker
I think people also underestimate how much like mental energy goes into navigating public washrooms when you're trans or non-binary. And so I was going to ask you about what trans and non-binary people are kind of calculating or managing that others may not have noticed sort of in, in line with what you just said.
00:10:50
Speaker
Great.
Mental and Emotional Labor in Washrooms
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So there um, m it's it's kind of hard to explain because for many people, they go into the washroom, they do their business and they leave. It's like no big deal. But for some trans and non-binary folks, depending on how they look, if it's not based on societal expectations,
00:11:14
Speaker
They can get a lot stares, comments, questions, staff called on them, right? So it's really difficult to navigate these types of interactions um when you're just trying to do your business, right? And yeah there's a whole number of factors if there's what washrooms or art types are available or not available that can complicate that. But that's where additional privacy is so important, where it you can kind of be able to get out of that um that very suspicious gaze that can be quite ever-present for folks.
00:11:51
Speaker
And so that's a lot of why... Privacy is such an important thing for so many trans and non-binary folks and how they want to be able to navigate these spaces really quickly to get in and out and hopefully don't raise any ire of anybody around them.
00:12:08
Speaker
I would maybe ask a second part to that, which is that what ah what. measures a chance of non-binary people taking to combat those um instances or those discom that discomfort.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, those those challenges that can't be present. I mean, there's so many different strategies that strategies that people employ, but the kind of three most common ones are and they'll they'll try to find a single unit washroom because then there's no issues, right?
00:12:43
Speaker
um they They're free to go in there and just be by themselves not without that that gaze that I was talking about. um Two is just like...
00:12:54
Speaker
suffer through whatever might come up. But you're right, that takes so much emotional labor to be kind of on the lookout, but not look people too much, look at them too much, you know, like it's this real odd balancing act. And then how to respond if somebody does raise an issue, how to how to do that graciously, but maybe you're tired and maybe it doesn't quite come out the right way that you wanted it to And always kind of treat it suspiciously. Like that does not do well for the meant for mental health over the long term to be treated with that kind of suspicion when you're just a human being, right, with particular needs in this case, right?
00:13:38
Speaker
ah The other one, and this is actually the most common one, is people avoid washrooms altogether. They just don't use them, which is really hard. If you go whole day, if you're in the office or you know out and about doing chores, like that's actually a big stretch.
00:13:57
Speaker
um For some, they don't eat or drink to be able to manage it to get back home. um You know, ah or for some, ah sometimes people will like pee themselves, right? Like this is the level that we're talking about. And that probably hopefully sheds light on the degree to which people are trying to avoid those challenges in those washroom spaces. Yeah.
00:14:22
Speaker
And the other last thing is just that people, when you hold in ah urine in that way, you many people develop urinary tract infections as well. So it's pretty high percentage that because of that strategy have health consequences.
00:14:39
Speaker
We've just spoken about what trans and non-binary people do to make their experience more comfortable and more manageable. And again, they're not the only people that experience this discomfort and they're not the only people who come up with solutions to make their experience more comfortable. And so i was wondering what you've seen, maybe through your work that people do to make it more manageable for themselves.
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I pay special attention to things in the washroom now that I'm washroom king. Washroom king. Yeah, exactly. Just go into my kingdom and um survey the lands. um um No, i mean with I've seen all kinds of really interesting things. One of them I thought was really creative. And basically i showed up, I think it was at a bank in the men's washroom. And somebody had put the length of the door right by the gap, a piece of toilet paper that covered up that gap.
00:15:42
Speaker
And i was like, oh, that's really creative. Obviously not a long-term solution because we're we don't want to kill a bunch of trees to create our privacy long term but i was like this tells me this is more of a universal issue and people are trying to figure out ways to help them be able to use the washroom comfortably and in privacy and this is how they do it they need this in order to be able to do you know what they need to do in washrooms
00:16:15
Speaker
um So these are you know some of the ways that um because of how it was designed without the user in mind, the user is taking control of the situation to be able to to get through it. Others hang their coats in front of it. Maybe there's like a a bag that they can hang on the hook that will also cover the gap. There's all kinds of different ways, but essentially they want the gap covered.
00:16:42
Speaker
yeah Yeah, please. Can we just do that?
Inclusive Washroom Design Solutions
00:16:45
Speaker
yeah When organizations are thinking about implementing certain changes to make spaces more comfortable for trans and non-binary people, um sometimes I think, well, from what I've seen, there can be this idea that it's very complicated. And so I was wondering what solutions that you've you generally think about or or discuss with clients um when they're creating those spaces.
00:17:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You're right. It isn't just kind of one thing. And there is the misunderstanding sometimes that it has to be this like long, drawn-out process, and you have to like totally renovate the whole washroom and gut it and start over. That might be the case sometimes. not saying that never happens. um But for those organizations where cost is a consideration, there are um you know ways to update.
00:17:40
Speaker
certain washrooms. An example of that is having um like a flap that you can add to the the gaps to kind of cover them up, right? Those are pretty quick to install. theyre pretty cheap, you know, on Amazon or Home Depot or whatnot. And ah those are great.
00:18:01
Speaker
So if you're not thinking of changing the men's or the women's washroom into anything else and you just want more privacy in there that would benefit everybody, great solution. Now, if you're wanting to go and you know renovate a washroom to be all gender or for any gender, then there is a little bit more that needs to be done to create fully self-contained washrooms. Now that can be done to different levels. You can still use the material that we currently, the I think it's called phenolic panel, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And
00:18:38
Speaker
you know But with fewer gaps or no gaps, right? Or just a small gap at the bottom to see if anybody's fallen. like Those are still pretty useful. It's like a two-inch gap. It's not that big.
00:18:50
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That does require, you know, taking out things and and redoing them. One other thing that we've talked about in another episode, so I and go won't go into it much further, is um removing the wall between men's and women's to create an entire all-gender multi-stall. I only mention it because it's a spectrum. So you can do these kind of modest adaptations to kind of more fulsome, depending on somewhat what ah what the organizational budget is and what the building can do too. But those are just some of the things that can be done.
00:19:28
Speaker
Do you think that um conversations about trans inclusive washrooms or everybody inclusive washrooms designs can help us rethink public spaces more broadly? So rather than thinking of them as special accommodations, but maybe reframing that as opportunities to make everyday experiences more comfortable and usable for everybody.
Benefits of Inclusive Washroom Design
00:19:54
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think that's the direction that things are headed kind of architecturally anyways, is to incorporate the user experience more. And, you know, all the top...
00:20:09
Speaker
architectural firms, HCMA being a really good example of that, where you know there's extensive facility user experience surveys both before and after and to better understand how people navigate the spaces and how to make them better. And of course, it's driven by people of particular or specific needs that are currently under or unmet. um Trans and non-binary folks being one of the that group, but there's also people with disabilities that have dire needs that are totally not being met right now. And so those are driving these needs, but once they're installed, people are like, oh, actually, i really like this. And maybe they can't even put their finger on why. um it's just kind of so subtly amazing that they're celebrating you know and we've seen that in recent uh patron uh interviews and focus groups that we did at a local the community center that installed all gender multi-stall washrooms and people at first were hesitant and then they experienced them like oh my gosh, this is amazing. They were so excited. They're like, I feel like I'm at Hulk Renfrew, you know, at some posh place, you know, i was like, okay. Just because it was well lit, fully self-contained, but had like nice frosted glass, you know, it just had a
00:21:35
Speaker
a vibe a really positive vibe to it and they didn't expect it because we're used to kind of shabby conditions in washrooms it's i think really important for organizations that are considering these changes to you know think about all the various needs obviously we've we're focused on trans and non-binary folks but um these are generally changes that everybody Since we have a shared trauma around gaps in washrooms, right we can solve that to you know and make it better for everybody.
00:22:10
Speaker
Cool. Thank you so much, Kai, as always. Yeah. Thank you, too. Awesome. Well, bye for now. See you. Bye-bye.