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Why Inclusive Workplaces Still Exclude Non-Binary People (And How to Fix It)
18 Plays4 days ago
Many organizations are working hard to become more inclusive of trans and non-binary people. But even in workplaces with supportive leaders, inclusive policies, and good intentions, non-binary employees can still end up being overlooked.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai and El explore what happens when workplace systems are built around the assumption that everyone is either a man or a woman. From gender data collection and workplace washrooms to employee programs, surveys, and everyday interactions, they unpack the hidden ways non-binary people can be excluded even in organizations that genuinely want to do the right thing.
They discuss:
• Why non-binary identities are often misunderstood as a “third gender” rather than a diverse range of experiences
• Why workplace washrooms, gender data collection, employee programs, and other everyday systems can create barriers for non-binary employees
• Why many non-binary people feel invisible in workplaces that were never designed with them in mind
• The impact of constantly navigating assumptions about gender, appearance, and identity
• Why many non-binary employees choose not to raise concerns, even when barriers exist
• The difference between cultural barriers and structural barriers in workplace inclusion
• How organizations can move beyond good intentions and create systems that work for a wider range of experiences
• The unique strengths, perspectives, and problem-solving approaches non-binary people bring to teams and workplaces
They also explore a bigger question: What if non-binary inclusion isn’t just about supporting non-binary people? What if it helps organizations build workplaces that are more flexible, responsive, and effective for everyone?
Whether you work in human resources, EDI, leadership, operations, education, healthcare, or are simply interested in workplace inclusion, this episode challenges some of the most common assumptions about gender at work and offers practical ways to build workplaces where more people can thrive.
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Workplace Inclusion, Non-Binary Identity, Gender Diversity in Business, HR Best Practices, EDI Strategy, Inclusive Leadership, Trans and Non-Binary Support, Gender-inclusive workplace policies.
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Transcript
Introduction and Weather Discussion
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to another Gender in Focus episode. I'm Elle. I am joined by Kai, as always. How are you doing? Hello. I'm doing well. How about yourself? I'm doing so great. um If you can hear rumbling in the background is because there is thunder and lightning where I am, which I'm delighted about.
00:00:22
Speaker
But... yeah It could mean that my internet goes because I live in a house that is falling apart in the scenes. So if I disappear. we know why. We'll send help. I've struck by lightning.
00:00:34
Speaker
Oh, dear.
Challenges of Non-Binary Individuals at Work
00:00:38
Speaker
Well, today um we're talking about non-binary experiences at work. And I think this is a really important conversation because even in workplaces that are trying to be super supportive of trans people, non-binary people can still get missed. There's such a different need in so many ah aspects of this. um Non-binary people have perpetual middle child syndrome in my mind in that everybody forgets that they exist. um Obviously, I'm joking, but there is a ah real gap there because so many systems, um like systems especially, are set up with the idea that
00:01:12
Speaker
people are either a man or they're a woman and over the last 10 years of Trans Focus um we've seen that like so many different ways that this shows up so even though organizations want to help trans people there can be a bit of confusion around what that actually looks like for for non-binary folks so when i kind of wanted to start there because it's kind of a a wider thing but I when we're looking at workplaces that really want to support trans people where do non-binary people still tend to get missed Oh, how long do we have? Sheesh.
00:01:47
Speaker
It's so many different places. And it's kind of when we come in to do assessments or audits or you know looking around, ah we pretty much can guarantee a handful of things.
00:02:01
Speaker
right away where we'll see primarily non-binary folks excluded. Now there are different types of exclusion that trans men and women experience. It's not to say none happens there, but it's a ah unique kind that is ah really an erasure, not an intentional one usually. It's not like people are maliciously finding places to delete non-binary folks, but really it's just anywhere gender is at play in an organization, collecting gender data,
00:02:36
Speaker
washrooms and change rooms, a gender specific program, like anywhere you have those things at play, non-binary folks either have not been thought of or just are not in the mix or not considered or surprised. People are surprised when they show up. And so it is very unfortunate and can be really difficult as an employee, but also as a client or a customer of an organization And so this is where we see it time and time again. Also shows up in interactions that we have. A lot of people um assume people's pronouns based on how they look, which can complicate things primarily or often for non-binary folks.
00:03:23
Speaker
And so so some of the texture of of that exclusion in the workplace. For sure. We often hear about people talking about non-binary identities as if they are new, but trendy, cool things to to be in 2026. But that that they've just sort of popped into existence very recently. um What's going on? Why? Why do people
Historical Context of Non-Binary Identities
00:03:49
Speaker
think that? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, a very common thing is that people misunderstand and think this is a like social media slash digital um invention. Right. Yeah.
00:04:02
Speaker
Where they misunderstand the platform from the content. So in this case, people are able to share more of their stories digitally. Yeah.
00:04:13
Speaker
that allows them to connect and hear themselves and see themselves. But it is actually not new experience. It wasn't created by the internet. It was created by people's experiences that they genuinely held or have or hold or have. And,
00:04:34
Speaker
maybe there's a terminology that is evolving and crystallizing to get more specific. That language can be perhaps new, but the experience itself has always been there.
00:04:48
Speaker
um And now people are more visible or able to share more in ways that people can understand and have language to share that. But throughout history,
00:05:00
Speaker
whether it's in indigenous societies or other ancient societies, like in India or China, b there's always tons of examples of people living beyond the binary of man or woman. And in some instances, playing very important roles navigating between man and woman. So there's like a a oh place carved out for them in those societies.
00:05:24
Speaker
So that's part of why it's not new. Mm-hmm. I'm going to jump in a second and say that you've given some really good examples of like North America or in other indigenous communities and also in India. But I will say a lot of Europeans will think this is a purely outside of our sphere. And actually that's not true either. We also have really strong examples of non-binary existences in Europe too. It is actually pretty much only very recently in terms of human um experience that non-binary people have not existed in theory.
00:05:57
Speaker
Yeah, they kind of been pushed to the side. official the history is not told. So we don't know that folks have been pushed aside or through colonization, complications or harm that have driven folks underground, right? So there's all these dynamics that are not visible to the day-to-day person that, you know, can reveal...
00:06:21
Speaker
always been there, but it's been complicated and sometimes dangerous, right? And people are protecting themselves and, and way to protect oneself is to be less visible, but that doesn't mean we, that their people don't exist. Right, for sure. Yeah. ah With that, then that, that kind of misunderstanding that you've spoken of, what um do you think that that contributes to in terms of ah responding to non-binary employees and setting things up for workplaces?
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah. So we've observed this over, you know, we've been working for 10 years now. We've trained, you know, 35,000 plus folks. We've done research among 17,000. So we have like a really solid basis to observe the dynamics at play and of course, always listening to trans and non-binary community members. And often when things are not set up ah or not no proper training has been provided to have people get up to speed on what has always existed in terms of people being existing beyond the binary of man or woman is ah people who are not equipped or can be um dismissive of non-binary folks.
00:07:36
Speaker
They can be discounted. they can be mocked in some instances as well, right? Made fun of. This is not a thing. i now have to memorize 75 new genders, right? Like kind of um commentary can really undermine and undermine the dignity of somebody's identity. And also,
00:08:01
Speaker
there is an erasure, right? If, for example, an organization doesn't collect gender beyond man or woman, you're now missing the non-binary data from the employees that you have because there are always somebody in the mix, right? We think, oh, it's this distant thing that happens elsewhere. No, guaranteed, most organizations have at least one trans or non-binary person in their midst, and some would love to share that they're non-binary, either in an anonymous or non-anonymous way.
00:08:34
Speaker
um But if there's not categories, they can't. And then if it's forced field, they're giving you other data that is not accurate. So, you
Understanding Non-Binary as an Umbrella Term
00:08:43
Speaker
know, it hurts them, it hurts you. And um yeah, so it creates this environment in which non-binary folks are frequently exhausted, like having to navigate all of this. They're frustrated, annoyed.
00:08:59
Speaker
They're sad, they're lonely. Like, where do you turn when, you know, few people understand and are willing to to step up and help out?
00:09:10
Speaker
hmm.
00:09:12
Speaker
I wanted to go into this sort of confusion around non-binary-ness, non-binary ne non biary experiences, because non-binary is often thought of as simply the third gender. So you were like, man, you've got woman and you've got non-binary and those are the nice three easy things. Even if you've understood that non-binary people exist, that's like the third gender. And it is often described in that way. And it's not to say that that's not the case for some people, but, um,
00:09:41
Speaker
non-binary is really more of an umbrella term for a whole range of different experiences, one of which could be that non-binary is a specific gender. And so I wondered if you could talk about what you have seen about how the misunderstanding of what non-binary means can play out in whether that's with individuals or in organizations.
00:10:03
Speaker
um Because when you're trying to make accommodations, something you don't get, it's, you don't know where to start, presumably. Absolutely. Yeah, it's a really important point that, you know, similar to trans being an umbrella, within that non-binary could be this other umbrella.
00:10:22
Speaker
um And within that, there's different terms, you know, we'll mention a few here, there's others, right, we don't want to be, exhaust we're not exhaustive. Yeah. And it's it's evolving too, right? We don't kind of think, okay, we've locked in these five terms and then no others can be added into the mix, right? right Things evolve. People clarify things for themselves and are like, this term really resonates or expresses what I'm experiencing.
00:10:51
Speaker
So there's things like agender, having no sense of gender at all. And for some who feel gender fully, this can be confusing. And maybe even like, how can that be?
00:11:04
Speaker
But it is for some people, right? There are folks who are bi or polygender. So having two or more genders at once. the same time. So somebody could be a non-binary man.
00:11:18
Speaker
And that's um we've seen many different configurations of that. And that's what gets to your point about the third gender. In that instance, that person it doesn't have a third gender.
00:11:30
Speaker
you know, there's a combination of things with a binary and a non-binary identity together, right? And for some people that can be a bit of a head scratcher. They're trying to understand and that's where it's really important to listen to the experiences of that individual for how that manifests in their lives.
00:11:50
Speaker
There gender fluid folks that move from one or more genders um to another over time. That time span can vary.
00:12:01
Speaker
could be day to day, month to month. Maybe for some, it's like for for the first half of their lives, they were this, a gender. And then for another half, they're this, right? So that time span is different for each individual, but there's some change, like some movement in gender for them.
00:12:20
Speaker
And there are others terms, but that gives you just some smattering of idea. And that's why it's so important to listen to what people share. We're not forcing people to share their identity, but if they want to share, to hone in on that experience to better understand what other needs they might have, like how that might translate, for example, as a gender fluid person,
00:12:46
Speaker
they may go into different washrooms based on their gender, right? We've had that um in a few instances. We've worked with organizations where on one day that person might go into the men's and another day they might go into a single unit washroom for any gender, right? So, you know, to be ready for that movement as it translates itself into the everyday, right?
00:13:10
Speaker
That's just one example. i don't know if you have other examples to to make that more concrete, but... No, only that that's you used that example of gender fluidity and that I i mean, i i don't work, I work from home. So every every washroom is ah is an all gender washroom, but there are definitely moments where, and and I think again and we've talked about this in other episodes that we assume that that will then translate into how people look. And so that's where I struggle a lot is that I look a certain way, I present in a more feminine way or the way that we think that this feminine people should present. And yet that sometimes is my experience, but sometimes it's not. And and it fluctuates for me um in sometimes, and it varies as well. It's not like on every ah every other Saturday, I'm now a woman. you're not scheduling it but it will randomly happen and sometimes I don't even notice until I'm halfway through something and I'm like oh that's why I'm uncomfortable all day or it will fluctuate and um I think just to understand how intimidating that can be to explain like it's not it's not easy to say because it's
00:14:25
Speaker
I think maybe they're people are kind of grasping non-binary, there is starting to be again like as the third gender, but then we have a whole series of expectations around, oh, that should mean that you're androgynous. But then if you have all of these other experiences within the the sort non-binary label, there is this like, wait, hang on, what? yeah What do you like? it's It's very hard for people to grasp. And then it's like, ah sometimes I don't want to explain it. Sometimes I just want to be able to get on with things. And I would imagine, again, I'm not in that experience, so I can't really speak for it. But I would imagine that in a professional setting where there are more rigid expectations in general, that can be really intimidating to be yourself in those scenarios. And I think, yeah, that's that's all I would say.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for adding that piece about appearances. That's a a big thing in our very visual society. And we've got that so narrowly scoped that this means that and you've got to perform in a perform in a particular way and it Yeah. like traps us all, but particularly non-binary folks. And also the notion that gender is static, like you got to lock it in.
00:15:40
Speaker
Like, what are you doing in changing stuff? You know, like, and then that meets an organization where there are very, sometimes very rigid norms and rules and expectations, policy even, where that can bump up against somebody trying to be their authentic selves. And People like, what are you doing? You got lock that in, you know? And so I can definitely appreciate, like, how do you bring that up? When do you bring, with whom, you know, you're going to talk to your manager about this? Are they equipped to handle this conversation? Right. It's just like, yeah.
00:16:18
Speaker
And yeah, that's really, really difficult to to bring because there's no setup for non-binary folks. And you also said, you you said something which was really resonated with me when you were saying it, which is how um it's so hard to even come to work it out yourself because there isn't a framework of non-binary that is a little bit more now, but but it's for a lot of people that wasn't the case when they were younger. And so, which is the case for me. So you're just trying to figure this out yourself. And then you're having to sort of then go, okay, I think I get it. And it changes so much for me to now I've been out for a while. And even before I came out, I knew, but I'm still figuring aspects of that out now. And so to then try and like,
00:17:05
Speaker
make it work in a workplace that is doesn't quite get it. It's like, I don't quite get it either. So like were we're trying to, I just want the flexibility. Like
Personal Experiences of Misgendering
00:17:15
Speaker
I feel very flexible with figuring this stuff out and really what what is important is allowing that flexibility in work too. and And I think a big part of that comes into assumptions and how, whether that's based on how you look. I actually had a conversation with a neighbor of mine recently who found out what i asked me what I did for work and I explained it and were that's so cool because you're not trans. And I'm like, and theyre like as ah as a woman, like that's really interesting that you work like that. And I was like,
00:17:41
Speaker
yo I'm not, I'm actually not a woman, but like, especially today, but like that it was, even though I literally said, this is what I do. There is still an, you would think, oh, I wonder like what that looks like for you. Or, I mean, i would prefer if they didn't ask, but there is just that an immediate, like, because you look this way, Right. Even though you've told me that your job is this, I'm still going to assume that you're a woman. And yeah it's like, i don't know, i find that really interesting, but just how fast we make assumptions based on how someone looks. Yeah. And non-binary people just can't fit into that expectation.
00:18:16
Speaker
Well, yeah, and it's like everywhere, or not everywhere, but a lot of places where that shows up and enlightening speed in a way that, and so often, like, how do you manage that amount of time? Assumption. Like it's just, you can't respond to every one of them unless it's a full-time job. And, but yeah, that the kind of binding of femininity with gender or assumption of that gender is so, so, so, so strong. And of course it impacts, you know, folks like you also cisgender folks who yeah look how society expects, like it impacts so many people.
00:18:58
Speaker
yeah, I'm kind of surprised because in so many ways in our society, we've we we've shifted towards choice among options and tailoring for the individual. And we're we're getting so specific, hyper, hyper specific, focused on the individual when it comes to like stupid algorithms. And yet when it comes to making money, but yet we can't figure it out for the well-being of people who are working for us.
00:19:29
Speaker
That's a bit surprising to me because there is the capability of that. um For sure. know, socially, yes, it might take a ah minute or two to for people to kind of change their habits. But um we're we're already the choice of an option most people understand, like,
00:19:46
Speaker
if if they were in this situation, they would want that for themselves too, right? That flexibility. So um yeah, and hopefully we can get there make that True. I really wanted to ask kind of on that, what we were talking about around assumptions and and the way that non-binary people just aren't really factored in. I wanted to ask you about what are the sort of everyday ways that non-binary people are dismissed or erased at work in ways that people might not even...
00:20:16
Speaker
think about like when you bring this up in in meetings with clients and they're like oh right like there are there these moments that really stand out for people sir yes they're i mean yeah I think one thing that was a bit surprising is washrooms. And I know that's an obvious one when it comes to non-binary folks, but what what was the missing link for a lot of clients is that they thought, okay, we have men's and women's only.
00:20:49
Speaker
We don't have other options. um And that, oh, look how kind of kind and considerate we are. We're okay with them choosing either one of those, right? So like problem solved, right? You can go anywhere, you know, like you have the freedom and flexibility, which we were just talking about. However, and that may work for some non-binary folks. So it's not to say that it's not, a solution it could be a solution for some, but it's actually not a solution for everybody. Yeah.
00:21:18
Speaker
and that's where we we do need to go past the options for men and women as a even if it's just one other facility right single unit washroom and there are ways to do that and we have examples of you know reconfiguring a current space that has a water supply But that needs to be an option because but you know forcing somebody to go into one or the other is an impossibility for some non-binary folks.
00:21:52
Speaker
like yeah And then people are like, well, just choose based on sex at birth. It's like, what? That's not at play for a lot of non-binary folks. like it That reference to sex is a very common go-to that does not help or is not something that people are wanting to base it on and gets us back to another binary, which we don't need to get into here, but it's like the sex binary,
The Need for Inclusive Facilities for Non-Binary Individuals
00:22:20
Speaker
right? Mm-hmm.
00:22:22
Speaker
But yeah, those are some of the dynamics at play and where people, there's a missing link that I didn't even see as a missing link. It's like, oh no, that's not an option for some people.
00:22:33
Speaker
Like having somebody choose between a women's washroom and a men's, neither one are a fit. Yeah. For sure. I appreciate that you yourself are not non-binary, but you've done, when I'm asking you these questions, I'm always know slightly aware. As a resident non-binary expert, as the trans man that I am. no I mean, a lot of this comes from research that we've done where we do ask people. And we are very careful to differentiate between trans women, trans men and non-binary folks because there are different experiences, right? There are certainly unique things that trans women face that as a trans man, I don't.
00:23:16
Speaker
vice versa for non-binary issues. And anyways, all that to say, we've come across a lot of it. And unfortunately, time and time again, um non-binary folks are just not even mapped in at all. And I know I keep repeating that, but I think it think it's important for those who don't have that experience to really let it sink in where you're not seen anywhere,
00:23:41
Speaker
anywhere yeah like on a daily basis like that's just I think for some people for whom the world is constructed it might be difficult but I just invite folks to actually say okay if you're a woman imagine although might be a little bit less of a stretch because you know a lot of things been set up for men hashtag history yeah exactly maybe teleport yourself to the nineteen ten s you know um where you know you didn't have women's washrooms. um
00:24:13
Speaker
And so, but just imagine what that would feel like where there's no accounting. That's yeah very disconcerting. One last example I'll give just because it's fresh on my mind from some recent engagement is single gender programming.
00:24:33
Speaker
So women's programming or men's programming and A really important point i want to drive home that many clients miss is that there is no non-binary specific programming.
00:24:45
Speaker
No. Maybe there's one very amazing place somewhere out there that has like... a non-binary or community created events for non-binary folks right um speaking of which yeah exactly i was supposed to be doing some work and i messaged kai to be like sorry i i'm not going to do this work because there's an envy party so i'm going to go to the non-binary party sorry and that is our non-binary inclusion But no, it's it's the first time I've ever seen anything like it. And for those of you who are not, you know, not my friends or family, I am not a party person. But yes a non-binary party is something that I physically couldn't allow myself to miss because I'd never seen it before. And so it's so rare to have something specifically for non-binary people.
00:25:37
Speaker
um And so when you see things that are for women or for men, it's like, I think things should be for women and for men. You're allowed to have that. but like what about non-binary people what about non-binary people yeah absolutely and because of that absence minus this wonderful amazing party and I'm glad you know but in 34 years that's the first thing I've ever seen so dang it's not right yeah you know what i mean yeah it's not common yeah and the kind of beauty and wonder and amazingness of being a part of that something for the first time you know
00:26:12
Speaker
And because it doesn't exist anywhere else, or maybe very very few places, certainly not the workplace, I don't see a non-binary and leadership program, you know, or non-binary mentorship program. Like um that's where I think people miss and they, they do a similar thing with the washrooms where they're like, well, just go to the men's or the women's options. It's like,
00:26:37
Speaker
Sure, that's an important consideration, but I don't think that's the end of the story, right? like Eventually you would want to have something either experience-based that multiple genders can access or um something specific for non-binary folks.
00:26:56
Speaker
Can you briefly explain what you mean by experience-based, just so that we don't have that in passing? Yes, that's good. I mean, it's a deeper concept, but I'll explain it briefly. Yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
Where let's we do the who to what translation, or that's how we kind of frame it, trans focus. So who is you know women, men, non-binary folks, so it's kind of identity, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's a place and a time and... Certainly rationale can be developed, but then there's also the deeper thought of going to like, what is it about? we have like women as a stand-in for something.
00:27:35
Speaker
And usually by defining what that, what we mean about that, you know, historically marginalized and not given economic supports. Well, guess what? Non-binary pop people experience that too, right? So if you shift it more to like kind economically marginalized and we're going to work on these three things together, then you could actually...
00:27:58
Speaker
you know include non-binary folks, you could actually include trans men because you know you're socialized as women and so have some parallels even though we did we do also experience male privilege, right? So it's bit of a complicated landscape.
00:28:14
Speaker
And then trans women who are newly in the marginalization and maybe even experience some marginalization because of their femininity, right? Mm-hmm. even if they were socialized male, any on and on. right So you can kind of actually get more cohesiveness because you've defined what it is that you're doing. Or if it's something more specific to like people who've experienced pregnancy. right like You've defined it, and yes, it it applies mostly to cis women, but there's non-binary folks who have given birth. There are men who have given birth, things like that.
00:28:50
Speaker
For sure. Cool. Thank you. And yes, I feel like we should go pack like go deeper into that in another episode, but and just so that we didn't have that brushed away. um Okay. ah who what I really want to go into what you were saying about the impact that it has on non-binary people to to never be um considered or or just... that almost to be like I know I exist but I have no reference point to my existence anywhere else and and like what that impact has on a sort of workplace um again I appreciate that you're not talking from your own experience but just from the data that you have collected over the last 10 years what what you have seen about how it feels to have your identity treated as confusing or inconvenient or up for debate or just not even existing at all
00:29:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's the exhaustion piece.
Mental Distress from Erasure in Workplaces
00:29:45
Speaker
which is not just exhaustion, it's actually debilitation at some point, where if you've got enough experiences and you've either tried to address them and they go sideways or you don't address them and it doesn't feel great because there's there's a bit of self abandonment that happens when folks are not able to i didnt like to state who they are, to be able to be seen for who they are. We are social creatures, right? So, you know, even if we think we're the most you know independent person, we're still impacted by that. And so at some point that becomes so heavy and can be quite frequent.
00:30:26
Speaker
um that people find different ways and certainly some can leverage it for greater empowerment and you know find ways that work for them over the long term. So it's not totally debilitating for everyone, but for for some, although I would say even many It's just like, why bother? Yeah. You know? Yeah. It can get to a very, some in some instances, a dark mental space, which is very understandable and people cope with that in different ways, right? We have all kinds of stats about mental distress, especially if there's no way, besides maybe community, that they can talk about that and sort it out and figure out a way forward. So it feels like there's some impossibility.
00:31:16
Speaker
And they're on the more extreme side, people can lose hope and be like, yeah, how do we go forward? and And this came up, we were doing some community consultation and I asked for folks to be like, hey, what's what's your vision for the future?
00:31:34
Speaker
And people are like, what? Come again? It's hard to even imagine something positive existing given that amount of negative experience. so I don't know. Those are some of the things. I don't know if you have others that are important to add to texture this.
00:31:53
Speaker
it's It's just this constant shutdown of yourself. ah Not because you feel like that, but because it's just impossible sometimes to feel like you can... exist and go through things and experience things and and also enjoy yourself and like have a successful time at work and it's I can imagine pretty tough it's hard for me to say that because but I worked for myself and then I work for trans workers so it's like I don't have the same experience for sure I wanted to talk about the the um pressure that can kind of come up for chafffer non-binary people because there are a lot of these, like we're talking about all of these um places where you're not being considered, but there are a lot of calculations then that that non-binary people have to make when they're, you know, we've spoken about washrooms and how they're, let's say for example, you're in a situation where there's only men's and women's,
00:32:45
Speaker
that and you likely do need the washroom every day hopefully if you're healthy you're then having to make these constant calculations and are other calculations that you might have to make and it it all kind of adds up so there's sort of a twofold part here which is the calculations that non-binary people are having to make but then I also wanted to ask you about um the way that
00:33:08
Speaker
workplaces are not set up in a way that people can feel confident then bringing these issues ah to the relevant people. And you will you'll be sort of stuck in this situation of like, why didn't you tell us that there was an issue? But if you did tell us there's an issue, why are you making things complicated? Why are you making things difficult? And there's just this like constant tug. And so i was wondering about what you've seen with that. It's such a like,
00:33:35
Speaker
awful pickle, right? um That a lot of non-binary folks are in, whether people realize it or not, right? People can be on either side of that kind of approach to non-binary people. Like, why didn't you tell me? Versus why are you telling us? This is not a big deal, right? And they don't see that actually both are happening. And the the non-binary person is in the middle like, ah, like, how do I proceed? Just spinning in circles. Yeah, yeah. oh
00:34:07
Speaker
Yeah. And so what an awful place to be because it's hard to chart a way forward, especially if no scaffolding has been provided or no pathway cleared by an organization to do some of that heavy lifting, especially since non-binary folks didn't create these things. It's not like They went about and created a system that didn't fit for them. No, it was already pre-created and they're trying to like figure way to navigate it. So it's not actually their problem. Yeah.
00:34:40
Speaker
it's the the organizations and the way that it was set up in society and its expectations. So, and it is difficult because, you know, non-binary folks, when they encounter an issue and we see this in the research, we ask like, okay, when you encounter, okay, how do you, like we go through the journey and then we kind of see where people, what directions people take. And, know, obviously is there's a range and ah a diversity of responses, but,
00:35:10
Speaker
Generally, especially non-binary folks don't say anything. And it's because of the exhaustion and not quite clear who did to say or what to say or how to bring it up. And and then you're like still trying to do work too, right? Like that's also the mix somewhere.
00:35:29
Speaker
And there's also power imbalances. So, okay, do I say something to my manager? But that manager has power over everything. my employee record to say this person's difficult keeps raising different things and you know what this has made me think of is and i'm sure maybe you were going to say this anyway but there is something that that not just showing up in workplaces but elsewhere as well that you can have an individual be difficult and though that and it will be that person is difficult but if a trans or non-binary person is difficult it is that trans and non-binary people are difficult it's it's this You you know what I mean? Like yes when you're, and you see this with, if an individual white person is a bit difficult, it's just that person's a bit of a dick.
00:36:10
Speaker
Whereas if a black person is difficult, it is ah representing representing black people as a whole, or it is representing disabled people as a whole, or this behavior is it like, it' it's so it's so heavily placed on marginalized groups ah to be a representation of the whole, which we don't expect from people who are, who don't experience those things.
00:36:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And it's such a lot of pressure. Oh my gosh, which is a part of the decision making. Right. We've seen that in the comments. We you know ask people to fill in you some description. And part of it is like, they're trying to be like, I don't want this to happen to other trans or non-binary or just non-binary folks.
00:36:49
Speaker
And also realize that they're going to take what is happening, the dynamic we have, And carbon, you know, copying and pasting that to every other trans and non-binary person that comes through the door, whether they're a client or an employee, like, oh, that's that kind of chess is an impossibility That's like 6D chess, right? so yeah Oh my gosh, like it's it's a lot.
00:37:17
Speaker
And so I appreciate why in our data we see that more often than not, people don't report. um And the biggest reason is that they think they'll be dismissed.
00:37:29
Speaker
So dismissal is actually the biggest barrier. um And that's people having experience, people dismissing them. It's not some made up thing in their head, right?
00:37:42
Speaker
It's because of a record of constant dismissal or near constant. And so that's why there's actually an opportunity in this for organizations. They think they have to figure it out perfectly when actually if you just take a non-binary person seriously, that's a lot of it.
00:38:00
Speaker
Just be like, oh my gosh, thank you for letting us know that we don't have a single unit washroom or we don't have enough gender data. And you don't have to have the answer in the moment to be like, thank you for raising it We're going to go look into it.
00:38:16
Speaker
Do you want to be involved or not in this process? you know And then go for it and explore the options. Mm-hmm. And I sort of on that wanted to extend that to ask about what support looks like beyond just saying, okay, just tell me what you need.
00:38:32
Speaker
Like, just tell us you need. and
00:38:36
Speaker
You know what i mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this is a systemic issue that non-binary people didn't create,
00:38:47
Speaker
it's on the organization to figure out. And not just for that one individual, because sometimes people really like to focus on one person. i get it. It's an anchoring point, right? It's not like it's bad, but there going to be a diversity of needs. And this one person's explanation of what they need is not going to cover everything else. And so you do need to have like a more 30,000 foot view rather than in the forest with that one person, that one tree, right? And so there there is value in hearing that person's experience and understanding it and thanking them if they want to share it for that. and But then it's then getting, you know, further out and being like, okay, what are we going to do for, um you know, trans men and women? Or what are we going to do for gender fluid folks in this person's agender, right? Like even within a non-binary community, one person is not going to be
00:39:43
Speaker
able to cover everything, even if they tried.
Systemic Barriers and Cultural Challenges
00:39:46
Speaker
Like, it's it's just, and that's where, you know, the additional support is so key. I just wanted to ask as well about how TransFocus, when we're working with organizations, it's primarily split into cultural aspects and then structural aspects. And so, and and the sort of way that people ah behave and the way that work is set up physically and systematically along with ah the kind of cultural dynamics within work too. I wanted to know how that shows up differently for trans people and the non-binary people because it's not a one size fits all as you've just said.
00:40:23
Speaker
sir Yeah. And this is a bit interesting. This is only after only 10 years of like at this day in, day out, and then suddenly being like, oh, some batter detection pattern detection, right?
00:40:37
Speaker
And we find now it's not going to be nice and neat and only this or only that for trans men and women versus non-binary folks. But we have found that there's a lot more systemic barriers for non-binary folks, but just because things are not set up, right? Things are set up for men and women, and that includes trans men and women.
00:41:02
Speaker
Now, whether people think of it or not is another thing. um But then when it comes to the cultural interactions, that's where trans men and women have a bit more, it's not to say that non-binary folks don't because there's misgendering, but trans men and women bump up against the societal expectations for who, what a woman is and what a man is. And that's where people can push back sometimes strongly and vehemently, sometimes quietly.
00:41:34
Speaker
um And that's where there's that kind of, like say in a washroom space, you can still go in as a trans woman into a women's space, but Maybe um there's not everything that society expects and then there are problems. People stare, make comments, question, pull in staff, all those dynamics, right? So yeah you have the infrastructure, but the cultural doesn't make it accessible fully, right? But with non-binary, there are no washrooms sometimes, like zero, right?
00:42:10
Speaker
And... So there's different nature of challenges that non-binary folks face compared to trans men and women. It's not better or worse or more or less, it's just different.
00:42:23
Speaker
And I think those are important to be aware of and to account for in any kind of change management process. When it comes to um seeing the impact in workplaces, what would you say are the strengths that you've seen non-binary people bring?
Contribution of Non-Binary Individuals to Workplaces
00:42:40
Speaker
And the it's not all It's not all bad it's not all tough.
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would want employers or really anybody that has a non-binary person in their lives to have be able to see this too, right? It's important to acknowledge the the challenges because there are many but not to lose sight of the fact that actually there's so much that non-binary folks can and do give um to the workplace and to society more generally. And you know these are going to be oversimplifications in some regard. And and of course, not every non-binary person exhibits these. and so But there is a likelihood for these.
00:43:26
Speaker
And a lot of it is around o not just within the frame of gender, but kind of even beyond that, being able to navigate with binaries and through binaries if that makes any sense where um it's this kind of multi-modal way of looking where people can flip back and forth and plot a chart that gets us to either better technology better systems better ways of relating to one another that kind of
00:44:04
Speaker
blend what's already there, the diversity that exists and allowing it to be and then smoothing that. And I've seen, we've helped many non-binary people come out at work and I'm always curious like what they work on. And they're are often in these kind of, what are, I'm going to use a fancy word,
00:44:27
Speaker
And this is the co-owner or ah co-founder's favorite word, Drew Dennis, interstitial. So in between, those in between spaces.
00:44:38
Speaker
And they are able to bridge those gaps that exist. and are actually huge in innovation um and coming up with new things. So they're able and quite visionary in many respects, at least the ones that I've observed.
00:44:59
Speaker
And and there's meant There's more I could say on that. I'm curious if if you have any thoughts on what you would say some of the gifts are of of NBs that you've observed.
00:45:14
Speaker
I think I really liked what you said, and this is certainly not my experience directly, but just in general, if you're not viewing the world in a binary, the world is set up in heavy on binaries. And so if you don't fit that, your whole frame of reference is different. So it might feel if you don't understand it, it might feel really wrong. And that's definitely, I struggled with it when I was younger because it didn't make any sense to me that that things were set up to be either or.
00:45:45
Speaker
I like, I just don't have a concept of either or. And it's really hard when a lot of things are. I would say that that extends to relationships or um I don't know, like it's not just about work. It extends to so many different, it touches so many different aspects of the world. But I find it very easy to find the nuance. And that is my experience with other non-binary people. it's not to say that other people can't, but it just seems to be like a default because we are the than nuance. Yeah. like we live as a nuance so it's sort of I think that there's so much strength there especially when you bring that into a workplace if the space is created and it can also mean that if the space isn't created it's actually really hard because you're expected to view things in the black and white and it's not there for us so if you create the space you might actually find that there's all this color in between
00:46:39
Speaker
and Oh, that's so exciting.
Envisioning a Future of Inclusion
00:46:43
Speaker
And I hope that inspires employers or companies to really lean into this area, not as like this burden or this thing that we have to do, but actually is like something to co-create with, right? At least with non-binary employees, like, what a, what an exciting thing.
00:47:03
Speaker
you yeah You talked about the vision for the for, you asked people what the vision is and you were like, nobody could answer or they really struggled. Was that right? That they struggled to answer?
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah. What is it for you? Well, I don't know. Sorry, wasn't leading to that. Well, I can try. can try. I was thinking about that because it's that the example that people couldn't think of a vision is the point for me. That's why you need non-binary people because it's too black and white. You're thinking or like, or not, I don't mean to say that. I what they were thinking, but my impression is that people think, okay, we need to do this to get this. It's like everything is zeros and ones. And that's If you had non-binary people in that, the vision could be expanded. And I suppose like, I try to think of what my vision is. It's a hard question. think maybe that non-binary inclusion becomes totally unremarkable is potentially my dream. Like boring. Yeah, I guess. Like the same way that most workplaces now understand, at least on some level, that men and women exist in the workplace and need to be considered. I want non-binary people to be part of that basic understanding too, or just part of the...
00:48:20
Speaker
landscape of the human experience and and I think that maybe we could go beyond that to something bigger because when we include people whose experiences are different from the ones that our systems are originally built around we don't only make space for those people we start to kind of see the shape of the systems themselves so we can see the gaps and the shortcuts and the all the assumptions and I don't know, the places where the path was only ever paved for one kind of person and while everyone else was just kind of expected to find their way through it if they don't fit that. And that's true for non-binary people, but it's also true for disabled people, racialized people, queer people, parents, caregivers, I don't know, people whose bodies or cultures or...
00:49:11
Speaker
families or responsibilities or whatever it is, or ways of moving through the world haven't been considered. It's not just about people being accepted, but being actively wanted, like that their perspectives are not treated as a problem, but like as something that can help us understand the world more fully.
00:49:28
Speaker
does Does that make sense? Like I always think about curb drops on sidewalks with this where they were designed with wheelchair users in mind, but it turned out that they helped parents with strollers and small kids and people with walkers and people pulling suitcases and carrying things. And it's just, I think it's, there's something there for me that ah something was created with a specific group in mind that had been excluded. And then once it existed, it made the whole world easier for so many people. And now we don't even notice them because it's so normal to to see a curb drop on a sidewalk. And that's that's the vision for me. Like, yeah not not that people have to fight so hard to be noticed that eventually someone reluctantly makes room, but that we begin to understand diversity as useful and instructive and as something that can make the whole environment wiser.
00:50:15
Speaker
does that Does that make sense? I went on a whole thing there. Yeah, mic drop just... solved world peace here. I love it though. It's so true that, you know, there's specific groups that help unlock things for a whole bunch of other folks. Yeah. And that's so exciting. Oh yeah. Like that's, ah is it not like, it's not a favor to us. No.
00:50:41
Speaker
I mean, for me, ideally it gets to a place where like, oh, we're missing a non-binary person. That's, that' that's liability. Yeah. Weird and a liability, right? Like, it's a risk to us. And we're not, you know, tapping into our full potential. And we want to make an environment so comfortable that they not only want to come, but also want to stay. and be able to tap in into, you know, unique or more specific gifts and, and, and discover things together, co-create things, um make things better for a whole bunch of other folks. Like, I don't know, why wouldn't you?
00:51:24
Speaker
i agree. so Like it's a way of building workplaces or communities or systems or whatever it is that are more responsive to the actual complexity of human beings. o Yeah.
00:51:35
Speaker
I think that's exciting. And that would be my vision. Yeah. And we're already angled or heading towards a ah flexible, adaptive world. Like those are words that are constantly being talked about within the, like we need to get our workforce more agile. Well, this is one way to go there among so many others. So yeah, that's exciting though. Like when I think about that type of vision, um,
00:52:03
Speaker
it It provides hope on one, and that's what we were talking about is, you know, what is the hope for the future? um But i I have a ah sense of it. And then I want to go further. i mean, we already have a sense of that trans focus, and that's why we're operating. But like it's a good reminder to to keep that momentum going.
00:52:26
Speaker
So thank you for sharing. Oh, my God. Thank you. I mean, all of this for saying happy International Non-Binary Persons Day, which is July 14th.
00:52:42
Speaker
It's midway between men's and women's days. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Kai, again. And see you next week.
00:52:54
Speaker
Yeah. Bye for now.