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Why Your All-Gender Bathroom Isn’t Working
28 Plays6 days ago
Thinking about making your office washrooms more inclusive? Slapping an “all-gender” sign on an existing door might seem like a quick, low-cost fix, but it almost always backfires.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, El and resident "washroom king" Kai Scott to pull back the curtain on the design and corporate strategy required to build a successful all-gender multi-stall facility.
From knocking down load-bearing walls to navigating deep-seated workplace tensions, we break down why simple sign changes fail and how to design a space that actually works for everyone.
What We Discuss in This Episode:
- How to navigate limited footprints, existing plumbing, and structural limitations - e.g. load-bearing walls.
- Why converting only one gendered washroom into an all-gender space while keeping the other one gender-specific (e.g., keeping the women's room but converting the men's, or vice versa) triggers organizational friction and resentment.
- How to conduct a physical washroom inventory by counting actual fixtures (i.e., toilets and urinals) to see if your facilities are falling behind corporate inclusion benchmarks.
- The benefits of transparent information sessions that explain the "why" behind the changes, lower internal anxiety, and highlight how all-gender facilities benefit families, care aides, and employees with mobility devices.
Resources Mentioned:
- Clayton Community Center All-Gender Bathroom Video Tour: https://youtu.be/x7Hjh7Ao9fA?si=wBXsAXg3uV3n0K2C
- Book a Washroom Strategy Session with TransFocus: https://www.transfocus.ca/organization
- Download the Free Washroom Inventory Tool: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L2tcgCJoG0xYX0ssQfFIMfKHyZbtyJvA/edit?gid=1956903258#gid=1956903258
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Transcript
Introduction to Inclusivity in Workplaces
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello everyone, it's Elle. Welcome to another episode of Gender in Focus. Today we are back to talking about one of the most popular topics when it comes to creating trans and non-binary inclusive workplaces and that is washrooms. There are so many different ways that organizations can make washrooms and other shared spaces inclusive.
00:00:26
Speaker
um And today we're focusing on one of the more structural aspects, specifically around things to consider when wanting to combine two previously gendered washrooms together to create one big all gender washroom.
Introducing Kai Scott: The Washroom King
00:00:39
Speaker
So I'm here with the washroom king, Kai Scott. Hello. Hello. Wow, that's a crown I may not take on.
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm happy to support, but oh yeah yeah it was just like this toilet crown too. just That's what I'm imagining. People do go to you for that though. It's a big one. On social media, people are looking for washroom daddy. Yes, indeed. How are you doing?
00:01:11
Speaker
I'm doing great. Yeah, how about yourself? I'm so good. Thank you. If you can hear a sort of gentle rumbling in the background, hopefully you can't. It is ah both of my dogs are snoring in tandem at the moment. wow Can you hear it or is it? No, maybe lightly, but oh that's that's magical though and very sweet. it's Very cute.
00:01:34
Speaker
Just restful pups at your feet. pet I always sort of thought that having tired out dogs would be the best, like the most productive for getting work done. But it turns out that they're so cute that I can't stop staring at them and like no, absolutely no work gets done. So it's pretty, it's pretty hard.
00:01:55
Speaker
I can understand. That makes a lot of sense. So let's, um, Let's get into
Challenges with Building Design for Inclusivity
00:02:01
Speaker
washrooms. When organizations come to Transfocus, a lot of the time they're kind of coming from a place where their workplace is already set up, their building is already built and everything is already as it is without trans and non-binary people really being considered. It just wasn't on people's radar before. And so when it comes to something like washrooms where men's washrooms and women's washrooms are kind of already in place and organizations are sort of sat there thinking, okay, how do we make this work to be to be more inclusive? What are the things that people kind of need to consider when it comes to renovations or all those aspects?
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's a really important point you're making because, you know, there's so many different ways approaching this, different situations that organizations are, you know, within, so to speak.
00:02:54
Speaker
And certain organizations have the good fortune of being able to design their own building, which is a really great place to be. You have so much more ah control over what you're able to put into place, be more thoughtful, do consultation. And all of this comes together along with, you know, considerations of budget and space and whatnot. But it's just so much easier, i would say, if you have your own building and you're designing it yourself. Mm-hmm.
00:03:25
Speaker
versus the situation we're talking about here today which is renovations of existing buildings so like you said the buildings already in place you have your limited footprint that is a real constraint also there's considerations around you know, where the water is in terms of piping. Right. It just like it's I don't envy people and organizations that are in this position because there's so much to balance. Right.
00:03:56
Speaker
It's just um a part of the equation. There's also a lot of different options based on the types of washrooms you have within the building. Right.
00:04:08
Speaker
You were mentioning men's and women's. That's often the case that a lot of clients come into us and say, we have men's and women's. We get that that's not enough, right? That does not fulfill the needs of the full gender spectrum.
00:04:23
Speaker
What do we do? That's the like big great heartfelt question with lots of anxiety because they're wanting to renovate. They don't know how to renovate and they don't know what the options available are. They just know they have a gap.
Starting Inclusivity with an Inventory
00:04:42
Speaker
So when people recognize that they have this gap and they can see that it's not in place and what what they need ah doesn't quite work for the people that are working for them what are the things what's kind of the the place to start when it's looking at what we need to consider?
00:05:00
Speaker
Absolutely. So we we do tend to start with an inventory. Obviously, if you're a small organization with one office, it's pretty quick, you know, like we have men's and women's, there's five stalls in the women's, there's three stalls and two urinals in the men's. Just having a basic sense of what you have is really important.
00:05:21
Speaker
Because then it allows you to come up with, okay, what do we do next? um What are some of the things that we can put in place? um Another thing to note is whether the washrooms are co-located. So somewhere next to each other, right? Some men's and women's washrooms are. Others are like ah like many meters away from each other. They don't share anything really, including they don't share a wall, right? And that's a different situation which we won't go into today. There are options available for that situation, but it's a little bit more involved. So what we're talking about here today is if um the men's and women's washrooms are co-located.
00:06:08
Speaker
And so we'll dive into what the options are if there's you know a shared wall um that could be worked with.
Privacy and Design in All-Gender Washrooms
00:06:17
Speaker
um Oftentimes what organizations do when they have two co-located men's and women's washrooms is they're like oh we'll just put a sign on them and then to say they're all gender and that's the end of the story yeah that's funny so they're kind of like not not quite realizing that they're with different there's like a different need they're set up in a different way and so you can't what's the problem then with that you you can't just chuck a sign on and go it's okay all gender off you go
00:06:51
Speaker
I mean, I would love for that to be um so easy, right? I mean, we're constantly looking for easy solutions to things. But what we find is that when you bring more than one gender together, you're having to now think about privacy, additional privacy needs, especially the way that men's and women's are typically structured.
00:07:14
Speaker
they tend to have gaps in the stalls. I'm sure your favorite, right? Everyone's favorite. Oh my God, it stresses me out so much. That is like the heart out of everything, moving to Canada. Why?
00:07:26
Speaker
Why are those gaps that the amount of eye contact I have made with people mid-P? Like, we don't need that. What's happening? That's so true. Through the cracks when they have a mirror and you're like, ooh, even if they're passing by, it's like bananas.
00:07:43
Speaker
ah So this is where it might, it it doesn't even work in the, when you have a single gender or, you know, singles, um,
00:07:54
Speaker
designated. um it just, even there, it's not great, like you were describing and I've experienced. And so you bringing more genders together requires more privacy. We can't have that going on because that makes people all very uncomfortable. um And so there is additional rent there are additional renovations needed to establish greater privacy within all-gender space.
00:08:25
Speaker
I would say additionally, it's also really important to ensure that there are, you know, sight lines for safety within that. And so it might not just work with the current configuration, Sometimes there's like blind corners or anything that are darker lighting. It's just, you really need to think about it from a few different lenses to be able to make something comfortable and usable for everyone.
00:08:57
Speaker
One other thing i wanted to note is that, um, What can happen, even if you introduce privacy and safety features um and just keep the washroom separated, people tend to use the washroom like they have before.
00:09:16
Speaker
And then you have this like historical use pattern where men are going to go in this place and women are going to go in that place. Right. So even if it is it's labeled as all gender, it's not all gender. Exactly.
00:09:29
Speaker
Exactly. because of the way people look or the way they are in these spaces and so actually just reproduces men's and women's but has a different label maybe a little additional privacy so that's where um depending on people's budgets right i appreciate that this is more costly um is actually removing the wall between men's and women's washrooms um such that It's a larger all gender multi stall in ways that don't reproduce the patterns, allow for that greater privacy, allow for flow through because now you have two entrances rather than one.
00:10:11
Speaker
And that creates a greater sense of ease and the ability to leave a space if one wanted without, you know, safety considerations. So those are some of the benefits of that removing the shared wall um between men's and women's and making it a bigger all-gender washroom stall or washroom.
00:10:34
Speaker
what presumably and this is a huge assumption here I wouldn't know but I'm guessing that some organizations have a little bit of hesitancy when you come and suggest like let's lop a wall off so what what are the things that organizations come to you with when it comes to that hesitancy like what things are they asking you Yes. So it's, you're right that there's kind of mechanical and plumbing and um architectural considerations. It's not simply we can remove any wall between one and We want the building still to stand afterwards. um
00:11:16
Speaker
And i will say I'm not an architect, so this is more me from what I've heard. so it's always good to connect with an architect to to help with this. And we do usually work with architects to help both on this kind of cultural social piece, as well as the architectural mechanical pieces. But if a wall between men's and women's has piping in it, or if what it's called a load bearing wall, so that means it's integral to the the structure of the building. So if you remove it, the building is falling. That's some problems, yeah. Yeah, we can do, that's a a non-starter if that's the case.
00:12:00
Speaker
But if those things aren't at play or any other complicating factors, then it is a good candidate for removal and um a you know creating this more inclusive space that doesn't kind of repeat patterns of use between
Examples of Inclusive Washroom Designs
00:12:20
Speaker
them. But those are some of the considerations like around plumbing, especially load bearing. So that's a good thing to ask as part of working with an architect.
00:12:28
Speaker
So, you did already go through this when you were talking about why you can't just put a sign, you know, change the signs and leave it as it is. But um I was hoping you could go into it in ah in a little more detail with regards to what that then looks like. Once you have, you know, you've removed this wall and you've created this bigger space, just having a bigger space with two doors, again, isn't enough. Yeah.
00:12:52
Speaker
So what does that look like? And we can link you've got like a really great example of this on on our YouTube account that I can link in the show notes. But I was wondering if you could do a sort of mini walkthrough of what you might see in a space like that once it's been renovated to meet those needs.
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's such a material significant difference between what we traditionally experience as washrooms. And I like that you suggest, like you're mentioning, we did ah I did a walkthrough of Clayton Community Center in Surrey, British Columbia. It was designed by HCMA Architecture. They do really excellent work, and we're frequently ah collaborating with them um because of the the great work that they do.
00:13:38
Speaker
And essentially, um they have kind of an open entrance. There is a pillar in the middle, but essentially, you're it's kind of... allows for that active monitoring from the outside of the washroom into the inside and vice versa, right? So there's kind of a constant connection between people, which helps with active monitoring and safety, whether it's staff monitoring or other fellow facility users. So that's really helpful.
00:14:09
Speaker
um It's usually really well lit in a way that there's kind of nothing that you know, um can get in the way of of safe navigation of that space, whether that's for somebody, you know, who's in a mobility device, right, or a family. think just any type of person really appreciates um that type of lighting.
00:14:34
Speaker
There's also at the level of the stall door, i wouldn't even really call them stalls to be honest. They're almost their own rooms um because they're fully self-contained, floor to ceiling, gaps at all. that you essentially close the door and it's your room with its own lighting. And there's usually a safety button there in case there's need to call for help. um It's well insulated in terms of sound. I know that can be a consideration for a lot of folks who want to have but sound privacy for obvious reasons. So all of these things are make it really effective for people to be comfortable to adapt. And if in fact, we've done some patron consultation where we just ask people about their experiences of a particular all-gender multi-stall washroom. And at first they're hesitant and nervous. And once they experience it, they're like, wow, that was one person said that was so posh. I thought that was so sweet. You know, it's just like, wow. You know, they felt like they were at Holt Renfrew. And I was like, yes.
00:15:46
Speaker
um Luxury bathroom. Yeah. That's so interesting though, because that's the thing is when we talk about all gender washrooms, there is so much hesitancy around it that there's like, people are very unsure, very uncomfortable with the idea of that kind of change from what we're used to, or they're very, um, yeah, hesitant around like what that might look like in terms of safety or, or comfort or discomfort. And what we've found is that people really like them once they're there.
00:16:15
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think people are are a bit surprised by that realization of initial hesitancy and then really enjoying it because of its all all the thoughtful features that have been introduced.
00:16:31
Speaker
the light, the, you know, you're able to flow through the space. It's ah like physically, like aesthetically pleasing as well and the privacy.
00:16:42
Speaker
And then the one last thing I'll mention is that the locks are color coded. it's really obvious. Okay. This one's occupied. go to the next one. This one is available, right? Whether HTMA likes to put in light. So it lights up above the door. And so it's really obvious, which I like. But you know just the door locks are fine too. right So yeah, those are some of the features.
Coexistence of Gender-specific and All-gender Spaces
00:17:07
Speaker
That's really cool. One of the things that ah you've mentioned to me before is that sometimes organizations will want to change one washroom into an all gender ah space and then leave the other one. So usually they might turn the men's washroom into an all gender washroom and then leave the women's washroom just as a women's washroom. And so I i wanted you to go into that and and why that happens first of all.
00:17:33
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I mean, there's so many different, what I would call kind of creative solutions. And I appreciate people who are trying to figure out a difficult thing. So I always encourage creativity.
00:17:49
Speaker
However, the The reality of the tensions that already exist between men and women, we're not even talking about trans people, um don't lend themselves well to doing an imbalanced approach, right? And So sometimes people do that because they're like, oh, we need to keep women's bases, which I understand. I'm not discounting that approach.
00:18:17
Speaker
But unfortunately, it can then inadvertently create an animosity or a hostility um of like or resentment that men experience because now they no longer have a gender specific one, but the women do. And so it creates these dynamics that are unfortunate and um ah for me unnecessary, especially if um they're the you know creating, removing the wall if it's possible, or just even working within the two separate spaces equally, i think is really important.
00:18:53
Speaker
Sometimes it's done um where from floor to floor it changes, right? So on one floor it might be women's, on the next floor it's the men's and, you know, kind of trying to get into that, but then it's really difficult to kind of keep track of which floor is what and i don't think it lends itself to easy access and so that's where we we do we're okay with and we're fine with certain number of of washrooms remaining men's and women is especially if there's so many washrooms in the uh in the building different floors and whatnot but just keeping it consistent so that it's easy um to navigate whether somebody doesn't want that and they need to go to another floor or vice versa right so just don't i i strongly discourage um changing just one facility whether it's keeping the women's or keeping the men's i've seen both versions and um i've already seen the results are not not great and right
00:20:02
Speaker
the The organizational leaders are left holding the bag there and it's not fun to navigate. I can imagine. That's really interesting. that so i don't know why that surprises me somewhat that people would feel so um particular about like, hey, they get their own washroom. Why don't we get one? Like, jealous. Yeah. That's because there's already a basis for beef that exists between men and women already. basis for beef
00:20:35
Speaker
And then we're putting one other thing on top of that. And sometimes that's the straw that breaks the camel's back and it's it's not fun. So... no You know, we see all kinds of gendered dynamics not necessarily related to trans and non-binary issues, but because we're changing something that that involves gender that can bring up these things that um if if avoidable, we we strongly recommend a different approach so that we're we're not causing this unnecessary
00:21:09
Speaker
to unnecessary issues to an already fraught dynamic. Right, yeah. Well, that sort of leads me to ask then that what what do organizations need to think about beyond just the physical structural space when it comes to making these changes around washrooms?
Communicating Changes to Ease Transitions
00:21:31
Speaker
Yeah. So oftentimes clients come to us and are like, how do we, what can we do? How should we do it? And they're very focused on the structural changes, which is understandable.
00:21:43
Speaker
It's a big ticket price usually, and you want to do it carefully, but then don't quite think about how they're going to introduce that to the to the employees or patrons, whoever's using the washrooms. like And especially shifting from gender specific to all gender, there's a lot of really important um communications or even information sessions that can just smooth the pathway. And help people who perhaps are a little bit anxious or nervous about something new.
00:22:16
Speaker
doesn't you know right This topic is all gender and multi-stall, but you know really any change, people can become skittish. And so... We strongly recommend to have some thought to communications, letting people know multiple check points along the way. you know we're starting you know we're We're making plans. We're starting construction. it'll become online here you know there's there's logistics to work out um But we find that um we've conducted these is information sessions for facility users really helps them ask the questions that are foremost on their mind, um gives them a sense of what is actually going to be the case and what's not, right? so there's a lot of myth busting that comes with, um of you know, all gender multi-style. It's not not as safe, right? It's unhygienic. You there few other things we can link to other episodes we've recorded on these topics. um
00:23:20
Speaker
So just giving people an opportunity to kind of think it through and and maybe even have an organized tour of the new facility. to give people, hey, here are the safety and privacy features. This is how it looks and feels like before it comes online.
00:23:38
Speaker
And that gives people just a way to bring down some of the temperature that can often accompany all gender multistall. Would it be okay if you go into those information sessions a little bit more like what that actually looks like and what what you've seen other organizations do, or how you've worked with other organizations to really give people the information that they're worried about? Because you're right, like the topics that we've talked about on the podcast are all topics that have come up. Like, that's why we're talking about them. It's because people have the concerns. And so like, what do the information sessions look like where people can voice those?
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah, they're really helpful. And some like, we've led a lot of them, where we basically go through what are the changes that are coming? What's the timeline? Often, these are kind of the key questions that people have, you know, what's happening? When is it happening? And why?
00:24:30
Speaker
the the why is super important I think people especially leaders kind of skip over that part they were like well because we we need to or we have to or you know whatever right they just kind of steamrolling ahead as a kid ever get told like because I said so that's um that was my mom's top phrase you just like I feel like some trauma has just been revisited then pretty much yeah I can totally relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. Organizations will go, we're doing it because that's what we said. so
00:25:01
Speaker
yes, without going into the detail. Absolutely. Sorry, mom, if you're listening, calling you out on a podcast. And like so many other parents and organizations can get into that mode.
00:25:15
Speaker
And unfortunately, it does not work, especially on a change that is so currently fraught. Like it's like a bit of in a political hot spot because of all kinds of things.
00:25:31
Speaker
So it's still important and still possible to go forward in a good way. is' just setting it up in a thoughtful way, the information session in terms of what, when, and why. Why is a really important one to go into. Oftentimes clients want us to focus only on trans and non-binary folks, but we actually discourage that because we're We're obviously not the main benefactors or the only benefactors. So it's good to spell out you know other people. I mean, really everyone, but in particular, people with disability or mobility devices. We have families that are coming together.
00:26:13
Speaker
ah There's you know people with care aides of different genders right than themselves. um on and on and on. right So I think that full list is really important to spell that out and not to isolate one benefactor above another. So that's where we go into those explanations. And then tying it to organizational values. We you say we're inclusive, but what does that mean?
00:26:39
Speaker
tangibly on the ground every day, here is one example of that. And, you know, we saw a gap, it needs to be filled. And it's not to say that you don't talk about trans and non-binary folks, but we're just one of many that are benefiting from this. Yeah.
00:26:54
Speaker
And you can even go into the specifics of like, Trans and non-binary folks often get stares, comments, questions, pushback to them being in gender-specific spaces in ways that make them really gravitate towards all gender spaces where there's no expectations.
00:27:13
Speaker
Everyone's welcome, right? So I think spelling that out is key. So if the if an organization is at the very beginning of this conversation and they they're thinking about initial steps and I know i appreciate that you've already mentioned this but what does that look like?
Advice on Inventory and Fixture Ratios
00:27:31
Speaker
Like what's the very first thing that they should do aside from obviously calling Trans Focus? Yes, yes. That is a smart first move.
00:27:41
Speaker
Yeah, but like what's their they're thinking, okay, this is something we want to do. What's the first thing that they should be looking at and considering? Yeah, and we can link this in the show notes because this is a ah widely available tool that we offer is to conduct and a washroom inventory or if you have change rooms, that's all can also be in the mix. And we do it in such a way as you're counting the number of fixtures, not the number of washrooms. What do I mean by fixture?
00:28:09
Speaker
It's a washroom unit or, is sorry, a toilet or a urinal. Those are fixtures or a shower if it's a change room. So, and then you get a ratio between the number of gender specific, men's and women's and all gender.
00:28:25
Speaker
And if your ratio is below 25%,
00:28:30
Speaker
you're falling behind most organizations that we've worked with. Right. and so you want to figure out how to up that. And some organizations already know that they have 0% all gender, which is a huge gap and barrier to, to non-binary as well as trans men and women who don't want to deal with gender specific spaces for reasons of harassment.
00:28:55
Speaker
Um, So yeah, that once you have a sense of that percentage or that ratio, then, and you also have an inventory of the units, you can start to say, okay, what if we did this to these two washrooms? you know How would that change the numbers? So you can kind of play around before making any decisions to see what impact that has. Does it increase it by 5%, 10%?
00:29:20
Speaker
And sometimes organizations want to go right away to 100% all gender. And it depends on the size of the org. um If you're smaller, that might just have to be the case. But for larger organizations with a lot of washrooms, we actually discourage going 100% right away.
00:29:38
Speaker
Because that can create a really different difficult dynamic and even in a backlash against trans and non-binary folks who are seen as the main reason for these types of spaces, even though they're not.
00:29:53
Speaker
There are many benefactors. So it's just, you know, being thoughtful about the process. But ah all of this we explore in strategy sessions with organizations so that in kind of a low pressure, you know, understanding the pros and cons, you can then figure out what's best for the organization.
00:30:13
Speaker
And if an organization wanted to go through one of those strategy sessions with you, where can they do that? Yeah, we'll put ah a link in the show notes to our strategy session and just provides a brief description. We do that on washrooms, we policy information systems. So a few key categories where generally there's some tough trade-offs, right? And so just wanting somebody who's done that with other organizations to be able to help lead through a process that allows for that informed decision-making to be fully aware of you know, what you're getting and what perhaps you're not getting, right? And being thoughtful in that process. So yeah, we'll we'll definitely share bit more information on our website.
00:30:56
Speaker
Sweet. Okay, I will link that into the show notes. um Is there anything else that you would want to talk about before before we go? No, no that but covered this one way of renovating. There are other ways to renovate, different options, but this one's a particular one that I don't hear talked about a lot. So I'm glad we got the opportunity to kind of deep dive on that and then also talk a little bit more about all gender multi-stall washrooms and some of the positive momentum towards them. So yeah, thank you. Amazing. Well, ah goodbye. See you next week. Goodbye from me and the Washroom King. We'll see you next week.
00:31:38
Speaker
Bye for now.