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00:00:01
You’ve Heard of He/She/They… But Some People Don't Use Pronouns At All!
21 Plays11 days ago
Some people don’t use pronouns at all.
No he. No she. No they.
So what does that actually mean - and how are you supposed to talk?
In this episode, we break down what it means when someone uses no pronouns, why some trans and non-binary people ask for this, and how to refer to someone without using pronouns in real life.
For many people, this is something they haven’t come across before. It can take a bit of getting used to, especially when we’re used to relying on pronouns in everyday language.
We talk about:
* what “no pronouns” means
* why someone might not use pronouns at all
* how to refer to someone with no pronouns in conversation and in writing
* how to talk without pronouns (without sounding repetitive or awkward)
* what to do when you mess up
* how to respond when people say this is “too much”
This isn’t about getting everything perfect. It’s about understanding what’s going on, and having a place to start.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Pronoun Usage Concerns
00:00:05
Speaker
It's Elle. Hello. If you've listened to any of our podcast episodes before, you are probably very familiar with us talking about pronouns. It's one of the most commonly asked about topics and it does naturally come up quite a lot when we're talking about trans and non-binary people. um We're pretty used to using he, him, she, her. We're getting a bit more used to using they, them, but you might not be super familiar with the fact that some folks choose not to go by any pronouns at all. And so that's what we're discussing today. i am, as always, joined by Kai, hello. hello. Kai,
00:00:43
Speaker
hello. Kai, hello. Kai, Kai, hello. Kai, hello. hello. hello. Kai, Kai, hello. hello. Kai, Kai, hello. hello. hello. hello. Kai, hello. hello. Kai, Kai, And I think people are pretty unfamiliar with this one. I don't know if that's your experience, but it's not something that I've seen come up much ah with with working with Transfocus.
Challenges of Avoiding Pronouns
00:01:03
Speaker
And so maybe that's a good place to start then, that when somebody says that they don't use any pronouns at all, what does that mean? The question people would probably go to is how do I make that work then? How do i refer to someone if I can't use pronouns? We're so programmed to default as a quick hand to somebody, to talking about somebody in the third person by using pronouns, like you said in the intro. He, she, they being among the more common ones. There are others.
00:01:32
Speaker
that when no pronouns, it can feel very unsettling. Like, what do you mean? What's going on here? So people have a lot of questions. First, they're surprised. Secondly, they have a lot of follow-up questions to operationalize this thing that has been stated. um And so what do we mean by no pronouns? So instead of if somebody you usually uses pronouns,
00:01:57
Speaker
she her pronouns it means not using those words at all And i will say for many, of this is not a very quick thing because yeah of the deprogramming we have. We default based on how somebody looks usually, unless we've updated our approaches and we some of us might wait or ask for pronouns.
00:02:26
Speaker
But some people say i don't use any pronouns at all. And- That just means no pronouns. And instead what we're using is that person's name or perhaps some other way of managing it, which we'll talk about and to come in the episode.
Reasons for Not Using Pronouns
00:02:45
Speaker
Right. So as you said, that's going to be something that is really hard to unlearn. We're so used to defaulting to to people's pronouns ah that there's like saying they, them is a hard one for a lot of people. This one is ah a whole other level of having to deprogram so much. um And so what are the reasons that some someone might choose not to use pronouns in that way?
00:03:13
Speaker
So for many that I've spoken to, we've not done specific research, so I don't want to like overstate things. And there's a wide range of reasons, some of which I'm sure we won't get to. And those are just as valid. um But for many, don't...
00:03:31
Speaker
don't um they don't have a gender. So somebody could be agender and they're not want, typically in our society, one's gender is reflected in the pronouns that one uses. Not always the case.
00:03:46
Speaker
doesn't map exactly, but for many it does. And so agender is a way to reflect or using no pronouns as a way to reflect that experience of agender so that even they can feel like a gender to people who are agender and that does not fit and really what people are focused on that i understand is the individuality that comes from their name so that's the primary focus and that truly reflects who they are or some aspects some key aspects of who they are and the pronouns kind of gets in the way of that Right.
00:04:27
Speaker
and yeah the way that people describe to me having no pronouns used for them if that's done properly and consistently with the people who are in their lives it's this like relief like so just like total pause on the constant barrage of being gendered which right Some people may not be aware that that's what's happening to them because that's how they've always experienced it. But for those who have changed pronouns, you know what that feels like, right? Yeah. And the sweet relief of silence on that is...
00:05:04
Speaker
really positive and affirming for some people. um Of course, it doesn't just have to be agender. um Sometimes people could be a variety of different genders and they simply don't want others to gender them.
00:05:23
Speaker
It's something they can they can they want to do or maybe within a smaller circle of people that they want to do, but not with others, not with strangers. ah So there's some dimension or dynamic around that. it's not always just agender. There could be gender fluid folks for whom maybe they don't want to have to change pronouns. For some, that's comfortable and affirming. For others, it doesn't feel as great. And so they just want to kind of have something that doesn't identify them um in that way with
Adapting to Pronoun-Less Communication
00:05:58
Speaker
pronouns.
00:05:58
Speaker
So this just gives you some tapestry of the different types of reasons for why people don't use any pronouns um among many others. I don't know. Have you heard of any others? Only that I can relate a lot to this ah as I think in an ideal world, I would prefer to have no pronouns used for me, but it's, I don't really know how to describe this beyond the muddle of the way I've described it to you in the past. But it sort of feels to me like my gender is very private. And so, and I know that can be a really hard thing to understand for folks for whom their gender is just look at me and you'll know what my gender is. But for me, it's not like that. It's very um personal. And so it almost feels a bit over-familiar having people use certain pronouns for me, especially she, her. I feel like that's really over-familiar. It feels a little bit like... um
00:06:58
Speaker
You know, have you ever heard of somebody who has a name and they meet some like a stranger and that stranger immediately defaults to a nickname and you're a bit like, we're not there. That's that that's how it feels to me, having somebody use she, her. And so, and and to some extent they, them as well, but less so, um which I know is a bit in conflict with how I express my gender.
00:07:21
Speaker
People would assume maybe she, her is the preferred, like out of the two, at given that I use both. um but actually what I would prefer is that nobody uses any pronouns for me until we have and ah an established rapport um and then it's it's a little hard to explain and I can understand why that might be tricky to grasp but it's that would be my ideal scenario I don't do that mainly because I don't have the energy to explain that a lot and and for some people it really is exhausting having to explain over and over and over again and so some people who do want to use certain pronouns or don't want to use certain pronouns won't express that because it's just too much it's too much for them to have to handle and I feel like that a bit I just can't be asked yeah
00:08:12
Speaker
to have the conversation so my my dream scenario is for nobody to use any pronouns for me and then we have a discussion that as i get to know somebody that make sense Oh, absolutely. It totally makes sense. And I love that layered approach too. And it's not an approach for you. It's like, like how it would feel authentic. Right. And, um, uh, kind of apt for the different levels of relationships that one has. And it reminds me of what happens in French and in German and a few other languages where you actually have a formal you and an informal you, um,
00:08:51
Speaker
So in German, it's called Zitzen for the formal and Dutzend for the informal. And people are very particular about that, as they should be, right? That, you know, you you stay at Z until you both clarify that we're good with, usually you share your first name as a way to indicate that.
Linguistic Techniques for Avoiding Pronouns
00:09:13
Speaker
And so there's like social protocol around changing pronouns already. And so it's, it's, I understand why you don't want to go into an explanation, but it's sad yeah that you do, given that we already have something like there's a concept out there already, even if it's not in the English, it's there. Right. So it's possible and doable.
00:09:37
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I'll get there. Maybe I'll get there one day. And I think what makes it hard is, and I'm curious about how that works in German. Maybe that's an outside of this topic conversation, but the way that I would want that would be, um for example, Kai would be somebody that I feel very comfortable with she, her. But if you say she, her about me, somebody else will take that as a sign of what my pronoun is, you know? And so having to be like, I don't know you.
00:10:05
Speaker
Like that it would be and then I wouldn't feel good with you with you not using that pronoun. It kind of feels weird when you say they them sometimes not in a bad way but I'm just like oh right yeah because I'm comfortable with you but but I want you to because I don't want somebody I've just met to start calling me she her. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, you don't want them to kind of pick up the what they would consider a clue, but it's not a clue for them. Right, but like for, that's kind of how we suggest people learn about other people's pronouns without directly asking is to listen, right? And so, and it's it's a valid way of doing it. But then there's a whole other layer then of having to... It's it's a complicated one that I don't have the energy for, but I, i um yeah, I hear you. That shouldn't be a reason to not do something. And if we hear people who want that, we should make ah a really strong effort to to learn how to do that. But it is a lot of for having for somebody to have to explain all the time so I can understand why people don't do it. Yeah, yeah.
00:11:07
Speaker
And to also then reinforce it, right? It's the explanation, but then because it's less familiar to people, there likely is some aspect of of reminding folks or, you know, having other people remind them, you know, so there's more effort involved in general on a few fronts. so Wouldn't it be great if life was bit more flexible in general? Then I imagine this could be a lot easier. Oh, yeah. where we would be able to receive more instruction and be open to it and be like, oh yeah, okay, cool, no problem. I just love what you were saying about how that's set up in German where it's just expected that you don't switch until it's clarified.
00:11:52
Speaker
watch out if somebody else is saying do that doesn't mean you now switch to do they still have to say z everybody's got their own pathway i need to move to germany that's what i'm hearing pretty much they're set up to be like oh yeah we're gonna help you reinforce this too because very particular well especially coming from english like we have no concept of a formal you and so you know i'm launching of course i'm a child so it was a dozing everybody and they're like holy crap what is this
00:12:30
Speaker
right but yeah I really love that the German is set up in that way is that that is my like dream situation I think um and so with that then given that we don't have that set up in English a lot of people I imagine kind of default to just repeating somebody's name over and over and over and over and over again so like El walked El's dog to the shop near El's house and like that's um great but there are certain limitations to that or or maybe I should say there are other ways to refer to someone without using their pronouns without it sounding as clunky as that um right although that has its own place and I certainly suggested it as a beginning place because it's just simpler to be like
00:13:18
Speaker
Wherever there's a pronoun that I would normally use, just use this person's name.
Strategies for Clarity Without Pronouns
00:13:23
Speaker
like But as you suggested, you'll find over time that one gets tired, both on the speaking and on the receiving end. It's like, okay, we've elified this whole paragraph. You mean you don't want to hear my name open over and over and again? I know I'm awesome. And um so, yeah.
00:13:47
Speaker
So you'll want to kind of spruce it up because that's what pronouns function. There's a shorthand. It kind of breaks up the use of the name. There's a few different things it's doing within language. And so what are the replacement words that can help with that to break it up a bit more? Number one is using things like, you know, coworker, gender neutral terms, client, spouse, you know, anywhere to kind of insert instead of the name, these other words to, you know, break up the use of the first name. Another thing that you can do, especially if you're very familiar with that person, is to um have nicknames that you use, especially like cutesy ones. Those can be fun. Again, you want to be close to that person to use them. And make sure they're okay with whatever you've chosen. um
00:14:42
Speaker
Another thing that, you know, again, also based on familiarity is that some people can also use somebody's last name. um And again, we want to make sure that they're comfortable with that as well. um That works really well in a sports context, right? We're already kind of inclined that way anyways. So those are ways in which you can, you know, go back and forth between all these different ways of addressing somebody without using pronouns, but still sprucing it up a bit so that it's not so monotonous. It can be a bit monotonous to repeat the name so often.
00:15:19
Speaker
Not me having an immediate internal monologue of Hollander when you like use someone's last name. and then switches to the first name. Oh, I know. Big deal. That's what I'm saying. We got to clarify first. Yeah. yep This is you know, uncharted territory for any heated rivalry fans out there. You know, know, you know. you know And if you don't know, maybe you should know. Maybe you should. Yeah, you're missing out. um
00:15:52
Speaker
Okay. So what were we talking about Because I've gone into heated rivalry mode now. And once I'm there, it's very hard to get me out of it. Oh, right. No pronouns. That's where we are.
00:16:03
Speaker
Okay. um And so when it comes to using, or sorry, to not using pronouns in that way, what's the sort of difference when it comes to, for example, how we're how we speak versus in a writing context, like in emails or things like that?
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah. and So, as one can imagine, speaking is um ad hoc, right? It's spontaneous. Things are coming to our minds and we're usually not even listening to what we're saying. We're just opening our mouths and things words are falling out.
00:16:41
Speaker
And so in that kind of ad lib environment, it can be a bit more difficult um to ensure that one uses not using pronouns, especially given the habit forming.
00:16:58
Speaker
ways that we engage with pronouns. So I would say that would take a little bit more attention than say in a writing way, where you usually have more time and space and can be thoughtful, and maybe spruce it up a bit with interchangeable words and you know, you could just, it's it's a little bit easier to figure out how to do that. Of course, if you're switching between talking about different people, you might have to clarify in that way, right? If you're talking about Susan, and then you're going to this person who uses no pronouns, um yeah, you may have to kind of use their name a little bit more to make sure people know that you've shifted to that person, things like that. um That can be really helpful for understanding. um
00:17:46
Speaker
But other than that, it's just recognizing that the spoken word is a little bit more challenging to learn or to get into the rhythm of it as compared to writing where you have more time and space.
00:18:00
Speaker
could ah Could I get you to go into that, um those challenges when multiple people are coming up in, especially when it comes to writing? um Because I think that is really hard to conceptualize. Could you give like an example or yeah, go into that?
00:18:18
Speaker
So yeah, if multiple people are referenced in an email, especially if it's something about really important where clarity is key so people don't confuse folks or get lost in the conversation, it is important to, especially at the outside of the paragraph, to specify who it is about and then have a separate paragraph about another
Breaking Pronoun Habits
00:18:39
Speaker
person. So you're kind of teasing it out a little bit more.
00:18:43
Speaker
um And when shifting between two people is, you know, talking about, like, the example before Susan in one paragraph and going on about what perhaps Susan's tasks are or what's happening with Susan, whatnot. And then if you're going to shift to the person with no pronouns, then you're going shift.
00:19:05
Speaker
You know, naturally you're already going to mention their name quite a bit, but maybe not as many shifts to say co-worker because then it's not clear. Is it Susan or this person without pronouns? Like you want to be really clear about who you're talking about so that people don't get lost. um And also that they know what they're responsible for. Makes sense.
00:19:28
Speaker
I think this also comes up with the use of they, them pronouns as well, right? And I think this might be even a little bit more of ah an issue, especially when you say they and people think, oh, are you talking about a group of people when only one person is responsible? So it comes up with no pronouns as well as they, them pronouns.
00:19:49
Speaker
Got it. That makes sense. So what are some tips for people who really want to get this right to help people get more comfortable and to start making those shifts? um I guess also in preparation before they meet somebody who doesn't use pronouns, but then if they already know somebody, ah yeah, how they can start making that a bit more comfortable and and something that they use every day.
00:20:14
Speaker
This is so important because as you were mentioning, it's so hard to ask for this in a way that people are responsive. Usually and very sadly, people just ignore that request because in their minds, it's too hard. And they're like, ah, I can't do it.
00:20:33
Speaker
it's not such a big deal, right? You know, and it is a big deal. It's an important thing. fishing And one that usually probably people have wrung their hands and maybe even not thought of doing it. Right.
00:20:45
Speaker
So the fact that they're asking for it, right. So let's honor the fact that this person has come forward and asked this and to do that, it actually does take some practice. Like it won't happen automatically.
00:21:02
Speaker
and I think people are a bit surprised because they're like, well, it's the absence of pronouns, but you're having to overcome the habit of using pronouns. And so as a result, I always recommend that people, um you know, practice with one another, like as simple as just talking about that employee or that person that you you know, hang out with or work with or, you know, whatever, and not using their pronouns and having that other person reflect when you do use to point it out, to be like, ah actually use the pronoun. And what's interesting is people do revert, tend to revert to they, them pronouns, which,
00:21:46
Speaker
i it's still wrong. It's still a mistake. around But having somebody be able to point it out, um it is a step in the right direction, we shall we say, yeah even if it is incorrect. But that said, if you can point it out, you can start to get a hang of just where it pops up and how and understand where your kind of weak points are.
00:22:10
Speaker
And over time, it comes easier and easier, especially if you sprinkle in these other words other than their name or their oopsie already did it right even in describing that person I just used there right so I think it's for example harder with talking about that person's possessive um L is going down the street pretty straightforward we usually use names anyways but when you're starting to talk about L's dog we would rather use there or we have a stronger inclination to that. Right. So just noticing these things is a big deal and can help towards making it um more kind of roll off the tongue.
00:22:55
Speaker
Another thing is before you meet that person, really practice to yourself, describing that person. Um, another one is really slowing down. It might feel really awkward to talk slowly to a person or about a person, but I think that's really important.
00:23:16
Speaker
And I would spend extra effort when that person is there, but the same amount of effort, um, when they're not, see, there I go again. When this person is not in the room. I'm noticing that I've done that throughout this entire episode.
00:23:33
Speaker
We're all in it together, folks. Exactly. It takes a lot of practice and to kind of override this programming that we've had our whole lives.
Engaging With Resistance to Change
00:23:42
Speaker
And, you know, the usual of when you make a mistake, just noting it. Like, we've been pretty calm.
00:23:49
Speaker
Obviously, that person isn't with us. But, you know, I would have the same disposition of, like, my bad. meant no pronoun at all or, you know, whatever the case may be. And not, like, overdoing it. Like, ugh, this is so hard. Yeah. I can't believe I did it. You know, not belaboring.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. I'm so stupid. No, no. It's just they, that person usually understands that it's some amount of un undoing and and practicing or yeah. Yeah. Practicing something different. And as long as you're consistent in your efforts, people notice that and appreciate it and we'll, you'll eventually get there.
00:24:31
Speaker
Can I ask you one question? I appreciate that was meant to be my closing question, but I do have one other question that's just popped into my head and that is how do you talk to people? And maybe this is a too big of a question, but ah how would you respond to somebody who says that this is pointless and stupid and there's just, you are asking for too much now. How do you respond to something like that? Especially in relation to this way, it's so unfamiliar.
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, ah I would say that this is very important. And usually um if I don't know this person very well, I can speak more generally, but this is usually at the tail end of a very long process of understanding oneself, of coming to terms, of weighing and balancing, you know, how much can I expect of other people versus how I feel comfortable with myself. you know and what would be good for me if people are constantly balancing individual versus collective needs right it's not like we're willy-nilly just whatever and screw you like so right so i think having um inviting people to have a similar disposition of open-heartedness uh open-mindedness um
00:25:49
Speaker
to help assure them that they can do this, right? And it's okay to feel awkward at first, especially, i usually try to listen to people and what their points of resistance are. Usually beneath this is ridiculous, there's something else. And so I'm listening for that other thing.
00:26:08
Speaker
Usually it's, I don't think I can do it. Like they don't have self-confidence and it's like, no, I got this. We got this together. Like I can help you. You can help me cause I need to practice. Right. So just coming from a supportive stance, but firm that this is important. Um, and, uh, just, you know, kind of explaining a bit of what goes into something like this can help people,
00:26:33
Speaker
You know, not always. We're not going to bring everybody along, but more people. And that's really important.
Collaborative Learning in Pronoun Adaptation
00:26:41
Speaker
And if that person can't do it, um then, yeah, that's ah a more difficult question. Like, it's not that they can't everyone can with enough practice uh but that they won't uh then i would think about kind of ways of protecting the the person with no pronouns um for that time period that that person needs to wrap their head around it yeah but shaming and blaming will definitely prolong the learning experience i would not i would not advise that It's usually something else that they're needing to work out and to the degree that you can understand and address that so much the better. But if you're like, you know, saying you're so mean or how could you, why can't you do it? Everyone else can, you know, all of that's not very helpful to that person's learning journey versus encouragement, explanation and other things can can bring that about faster.
00:27:42
Speaker
Obviously not always, but in so many instances faster. Cool. Well, um thanks so much, Kai. Is there anything that we've missed? I don't know if we have. No. Besides having me recognize I'm going to do more practice on my own as well. I'm going to take my own advice. Given the fact that this is in my in my dream world that I would like this, it's fascinating how often I mess it up. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's really valuable. And I think that's actually important for people to realize ah that are receiving the information, the request of no pronouns, is that that other person might, the person requesting might also have their own learning journey. Right. Yeah. I think all trans and non-binary people can relate to that. getting Getting it wrong with other trans people, getting it wrong about themselves. So when it comes to, especially early on, like it's it's hard yeah to undo something that we've learned.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And so I think typically people who are not, don't have this experience think that others have already dialed it and they're the ones to have to catch up versus we're all doing this together and we'll all make steps towards progress, if that makes sense.
00:29:04
Speaker
you know, and that kind of a we're all in it together vibe is strong, you know, as as we join folks, it's not so much catch up. So yeah, think that's an important thing to keep in mind.
00:29:16
Speaker
Sweet. Well, thank you so much for talking about this topic. Thank you too for sharing and for asking great questions to kind of highlight this really important topic.
00:29:27
Speaker
Well, we'll see you next week. Okay. Bye for now.