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“You’re Making Us Look Bad”: Why Trans People Police Each Other
28 Plays10 days ago
“You’re making us look bad.”
It’s a phrase some trans and non-binary people have heard. Not from critics, but from other trans people who worry that being too visible, too different, or too outspoken will make acceptance harder for everyone.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai and El explore the fear that sits underneath comments like “tone it down,” “don’t rock the boat,” and “you’re asking for too much.” Why do conversations about pronouns, non-binary identities, gender expression, and visibility sometimes create tension within the trans and non-binary community itself?
Together, we unpack how fear of backlash can turn inward, why trans and non-binary people are not a monolith, and what happens when people feel pressured to make themselves smaller in order to be accepted. We also explore what organizations, allies, and community members can learn from the wide range of experiences and perspectives that exist across the trans and non-binary community.
Whether you’re trans, non-binary, questioning, an ally, or simply interested in understanding today’s conversations around gender identity, pronouns, inclusion, and belonging, this episode offers a thoughtful look at one of the most complex and misunderstood dynamics within the trans community.
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Transcript
Introduction and Co-host Introduction
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello, welcome to another Gender in Focus episode. My name is Elle and I'm here as always with the president of Transfocus, Kai Scott. How are you doing? Hello, I'm doing well. like i need to give you a title there.
00:00:17
Speaker
oh Yeah, it's it's better than, what was the other one? King of Washrooms or something like that. Washroom. Washroom, yeah, yeah. All right, I'll take this one above that one. Fair enough. How are you?
Weather Chat and Episode Topic Introduction
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm doing well. How about yourself?
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm doing so well. It is, ah we're recording this on May 29th and it is too hot to be May. um So true I'm not not built for this. So I'm struggling a bit, but I'm doing okay.
00:00:44
Speaker
Right. Making your way through the heat. Yeah. Unexpected, like I won't say heat wave. I'll put that in quotation marks, but hotter than usual for sure.
00:00:56
Speaker
I know. When I came to Canada, I was thinking, yes, I'm going to go to the land of polar bears. I didn't think tropical weather in May. Well, global warming does funny things. True. Okay. Well, anyway, today we're talking about a really interesting topic, actually, and one that could potentially be a little difficult for some people. particularly trans and non-binary people actually because it involves the way that trans and non-binary expressions or experiences can be monitored or folks are being told to tone things down or that they are too much or too colorful or just yeah too much going on and um it shows up all the time when talking to cisgender people but it does actually show up quite a lot when we're talking within our own community as well and um that's what we're going to be talking about the nuances that come with these sorts of topics
00:01:45
Speaker
So Kai, people are, people I'm feeling hesitant already. People are really hesitant to talk about this within the community because there is so much pressure to make sure it seems as though we're all united. And so before we kind of dive in, i was wondering if you could start there, that what is it about this topic that makes it so hard to address?
Diversity in Trans Communities
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah, I can imagine for some people listening, this is a bit of a plot twist, because maybe for some cisgender folks who are listening, you kind of see the community as one, you know, unified, all on the same page, doing the same thing.
00:02:22
Speaker
ah But in fact, there's a lot of diversity, not just of experience and identity, but also opinions about how we should be as well. Right. Right. and That's where, you know, based on experience or um even how we see the world, people could be nervous about how some trans and non-binary folks ah show up. That could be...
00:02:50
Speaker
you know, in the way they've decided to how they're going dress, maybe or express themselves might be different from societal expectations for that particular gender.
00:03:01
Speaker
It could be that they're not going to be quiet when something is the matter and are going to pointed out um in various ways that that shows up. It could be somebody being, you know, too much of one thing or the other, feminine, masculine, but it kind of all boils down to don't be yourself, right?
00:03:26
Speaker
In ways that are authentic to that person, no matter if it aligns with society or it doesn't. And so, There can be this monitoring that happens within trans and non-binary communities and it expresses itself in digital form, online commentary, but it also can be subtle moments between trans people in person where they say, i wouldn't do that. Right. Right.
00:03:52
Speaker
And I appreciate why it is, and we can get into that um a little bit later. But i I'm not saying that it's not completely understandable, but I think this is important to and explore, not just for trans and non-binary folks to talk about, but also cisgender people to be aware of so that we're not painting the whole community as person. And perhaps only listening to one individual who might be trying to kind of constrain the community in ways that are not helpful for everybody or has unrealistic expectations of certain trans and non-binary folks. So just kind of putting it out there so we can have a constructive ah conversation about this in terms of what we can do, no matter if we're cis or trans.
Challenges in Addressing Trans Needs
00:04:40
Speaker
I think you just said something really important there, that this idea that there there is no such thing as one trans perspective on things and that if you ah kind of take some education or learning or just listening to one trans person, that doesn't mean you now understand trans people as a as a group and so I guess I wanted to ask you to to sort of dive into that a little bit further and and what that looks like in terms of just you know individuals but also what that looks like in terms of organizations and and planning for that nuance yeah I think for cisgender folks who are just starting on their journey of understanding they might see trans as one
00:05:24
Speaker
thing um when in fact it's actually an umbrella term for quite a range of different identities and they all have different needs and different things they're doing and decisions people are making and both from an individual but also as part of that group of people. So we have most people think when they think of trans they think of trans men and women so the binary aspects of those identities um that's probably the most visible to most folks. um But there's also those who are beyond that binary, so non-binary folks, gender fluid folks, people who don't use any pronouns. So there's a lot going on underneath this broad umbrella. And sometimes organizations just listen to one individual and say it's a ah trans woman, which is really important. and we do need to listen to trans individuals, but they're largely gonna be speaking from their experience. What are their pain points? What are they upset about? What are they identifying as ways forward? And they might actually have opinions about the other part of the spectrum or the community, right? And some of those are informed and others are not as informed.
00:06:43
Speaker
And so it's really important fur for the cisgender folks in organizations who are listening to trans individuals to understand that context, that we and we can listen to people's personal experience, but they may not be able to span the full spectrum in terms of what other solutions are needed, and they might be misinformed about other aspects of the spectrum, right?
00:07:08
Speaker
So especially trans binary folks, not to call out my own people as a trans man, but we can sometimes have ill-informed um thoughts, opinions, perspectives on non-binary folks that we are spouting in a workplace context that makes it more difficult for non-binary folks, as an example, right?
00:07:30
Speaker
And so I think that's where, you know, rather than organizations asking what do trans people need, it's what are the ranges of things we can set up in an organization so that a range of needs can be handled well.
00:07:46
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So those are some of the shifts. That makes sense. And we actually had ah we had a really good
Social Media and Trans Discourse
00:07:52
Speaker
example of this. ah i think it was, well, by the time this goes out, it will be last month. But on social media, we we had a an episode go out that was talking about the discourse around trans people being born in the wrong body and how ah the majority of trans people really don't align with that phrasing. And you can I'll link that in the show notes. You can check that out. But When we shared that, we did get some pushback on this because, as we've said, trans people are not a monolith and that there are a whole range of different experiences and opinions on that. And I was wondering if you could kind of go into that a little bit just as an example of of what that looks like.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah. Well, when it comes to how we describe our experience under this broad umbrella of trans and non-binary folks, you know we were trying to show that the kind of narrative which we see in the media lot is born in the wrong body and how that wasn't applicable to everyone under this broad umbrella.
00:08:49
Speaker
But then people got who, for whom it it does describe their experience. They got nervous, right. Thinking that we're trying to say, don't use this at all when individuals can use it for themselves, but not to force it on others. Right. And so it's just these nuances that can then, you know, get into a bit of a kind of back and forth tension point um when people,
00:09:14
Speaker
it When we kind of just recognize that everybody has a different experience and not one part of the spectrum represents everybody, we can have a much smoother way through. And it's not to say that individuals for whom that resonates, they can't say that they should. Mm-hmm.
00:09:31
Speaker
But then not to say this is how everybody else does it as well. So to over represent what is at play. Right. And that can happen to be like my way of describing is the true way when that's not really at play.
00:09:47
Speaker
um So there's a bit of nuance there. um I think sometimes people think, too, with that kind of pushback on the born in the wrong body is that, you
00:10:00
Speaker
people, that's a that's their effective way of of describing to be able to get what they need, right? Right. Because it's very complicated medical system and you have to jump through a lot of hoops and you try to find efficient ways. So I do get why people um ah like like this way of describing But then unfortunately, it sets up, if that's the only way that people think about trans folks, then we're over-focused on the body and not everybody's changing their bodies and and whatnot. So...
00:10:32
Speaker
yeah right Those are a few of the dynamics at play. Yeah. h So even we get the pushback. And that's hard, though, then that kind of must be quite difficult for an organization because we had the pushback, but we're pretty equipped to handle it. But if you're an organization and you're trying your best es and you don't, you know, you're not too sure, but then you think you've done the right thing and it turns out you've pissed off.
00:10:56
Speaker
a group whole other group of trans people yeah it must be really you can see where the nerves come into play when it comes to figuring this stuff out Yeah,
Organizational Processes for Trans Inclusivity
00:11:06
Speaker
absolutely. And that's why we conduct kind of thoughtful and thorough processes. Not so much to say we're going to find the right way, right? It's more that there's enough exploration of the people involved who are going to implement this to say, okay, we understand here are the options. Here's what fits within our budget, our timelines, our systems, and what our people need.
00:11:33
Speaker
And this is what we can't do. And then also being able to explain that because it's it's fine not to do something, right? Whatever that is. But then it's how do you explain that to people who might not agree with not doing something, you know? And that's the the kicker.
00:11:51
Speaker
And having confidence in being like, okay, we we might get people coming to us with a pushback or not agreeing. And that's okay. That's their prerogative. They can...
00:12:03
Speaker
Tell us that and we can respond in this way that we've prepared and we're not flustered or caught off guard. For sure. I really want to go on then to talk about... um policing within the community the way that that shows up because um what we might often hear and and actually what we have heard um or what we've seen in our own comment section and the comment sections of other people's social media is this sort of
00:12:37
Speaker
when somebody implies that by expressing yourself in the way that you want to express yourself as a trans non-binary person, that you're making things harder for the rest of us, if that especially if it's a real, um I don't know, I'll give you an example of something that I saw recently, which was of a trans man who had not had top surgery and was wearing a more feminine presenting, sort of more feminine a coded outfit and saying, even though I'm wearing this, I'm still a trans man. And the comment section was,
00:13:06
Speaker
filled with you're making this so difficult like what are you what do you expect that if you're going to get pushed back like you're making things so hard for the rest of us and we had this you know the same in our own comment section too and so I really want to hear you kind of go into who it is exactly that ends up being talked about in this way and what what's going on with that yeah And what a great example to anchor in. Obviously, there's so many more. But um a yeah, it's almost like people are saying to that person, you brought this upon yourself, right? Any difficulty that that person experiences, then it's victim blaming, right?
00:13:50
Speaker
oh And one thing to note for those who are not a part of this trans or non-bo and non-binary community is that This is a really tough time and there's a lot of pressure on the community. There's a lot that's going wrong. And it's that kind of situation or condition that brings this to the fore even more, kind of pours gasoline on a fire,
00:14:18
Speaker
in terms of people policing, because at the bottom of it is really a fear of backlash, seeing bunch of backlash, and then being like, we don't need any more, it's damage control. And if you connect with your own fear on other topics, um control can be a part of that response. So It's not even that people are necessarily being malicious, although they can be.
00:14:44
Speaker
and There is this, um we got it what what can we control? i don't know if I can control the people outside who are misunderstanding the community or you know hostile towards the community, but i can control people in my community. And so kind of figuring out that control and then just hyper focusing on anybody that stands out in any way from societal expectation.
00:15:11
Speaker
And the common message is like, hey, tone it down. We got to be reasonable. We can't look odd. don't don't rough Don't rock the boat, right? All the common things. And of course, this is not just trans and non-binary communities. This is pretty much any marginalized community has this dynamic at play where there are some who take it upon themselves, usually based on fear, to then micromanage others in their midst.
00:15:39
Speaker
And then really um that's an understandable difficult situation for organizations because, of course, you don't want to blame or shame the person who's doing that.
00:15:52
Speaker
But we also don't want to absorb all of that either. Right. Yeah. So it is it is a careful, nuanced balancing act. um One thing I would offer as a reframe from thinking about controlling people in our community is in unfortunately kind of lining up with society and playing along, if you will, doesn't actually create safety.
00:16:19
Speaker
long term, maybe in the moment it does, and you get somebody off your back, and you can kind of be safe and huddle quietly away from the the eye or the gaze of society.
00:16:32
Speaker
But long term, it actually just means that the people who need safety the most are most at risk. they kind of take on that that risk for the whole community. And long-term that has huge mental and physical impacts on them in the terms of their health.
00:16:51
Speaker
And so there are other ways to be safe. And I think those need to be discussed as a community and and advanced, but controlling people who are quote too much or, you know, being quote unquote odd, according to society, that's not going to get us really far.
00:17:10
Speaker
No, for sure. And holding holding them responsible for cis people's reactions, putting it on trans-aliener people, it's it's so tough to to
Non-binary Issues and Hierarchy of Suffering
00:17:21
Speaker
handle. and But that there is something really understandable about that fear. no like Acceptance already feels so fragile. yeah I can see why...
00:17:35
Speaker
difference might start to feel super risky yeah and it's it's very like terrifying place to be when you're seeing all of this going on around world yeah and to have compassion for that person or at least i do and invite others to do the same not to excuse what they're doing but more so that this person is not likely just controlling others around them they're controlling themselves so What are they borrowing themselves from that they would like to have access to?
00:18:07
Speaker
Either small or big things, right? And so it's very unfortunate. And that, of course, shows up in cisgender people too, right? so Absolutely, yeah. But yeah, so I do have compassion for folks who who do that, even if I'm not agreeing with their actions or words.
00:18:23
Speaker
One of the things that that we see a fair amount of, whether, again, in our own comment section or ah in other peoples is this idea that there bigger issues to handle. And we've we've seen this quite a lot in, we might be talking about, um I don't know, using the right pronouns and someone will say, oh yes, that's a good, people are dying, but let's focus on pronouns. And and that can be cis people and it can be trans non-binary people. Another one might be, um another one that I saw on our own was, um
00:18:57
Speaker
I think we were talking about ah why we should hire trans people as leaders and it's like, oh, right. Yeah, this is the important thing. We shouldn't. It doesn't matter that we're losing all our rights in the States, but yeah, let's make sure someone's in middle management, you know, something like that. And it's real dismissal and that's so, um i mean, first of all, that's true of literally any problem. yeah There's always something that's, I don't know, more important than something else and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it. So I was wondering if you could go into that and where that comes from. Why is that such a thing?
00:19:32
Speaker
of a Yeah, no kidding. I mean, i yeah you're right. So many good examples from social media and just conversations, you know, I've been a part of, I'm sure you've been a part of where that comes up, where it's like, you know, ah this matter that we're talking about at the moment just gets kind of, you know, tossed off to the side, like we should be only talking about X, Y, and zd and no other things. Right. as if we can't hold two or more things at once. um Some of us really like multitasking. You can speak for yourself on that one, but yes. Okay, fair. But no, it's true.
00:20:13
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, where this comes from is that in our community and others, ah there is a hierarchy of suffering.
00:20:24
Speaker
And this is something that some people set up as a way to say, this is more important than that. And or we only focus on these things and not others. It's um usually pretty vague and either individually understood or maybe ah among a few collective folks together, they understand the same thing.
00:20:47
Speaker
But and it sometimes changes too. I've observed that where I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's different from the last time we talked. right But often what you see, if you dig a little bit deeper, is that, um,
00:21:02
Speaker
We ah want to appreciate that people have experienced these things, right, that they're bringing up and that there's real pain behind those, right? And so I think it's, um at least for me, I try to handle those very in a very sensitive way because, yes, that is whatever that's raised, whether that's a personal experience or not or something they've heard from others, that is an important thing.
00:21:29
Speaker
And we don't need to drop the other thing that we're talking about either. I think sometimes people struggle between what's this kind of system level urgency that we need to focus on and and collectively work on as part of community or with organizational support and what's kind of interpersonal dignity. Right.
00:21:53
Speaker
both levels are super, super important. If we ignore the interpersonal dignity level and only focus on the systemic stuff, we'll get a bunch of people who won't be able to enjoy the systemic successes because they're going to be you know not having a great mental health or physical health because their dignity has been worn down over time.
00:22:18
Speaker
Now, if we only focus on interpersonal dignity without the systemic stuff, we won't get anywhere, right? So yeah I think it would invite us to think about both levels. And maybe we focus more or less on one or the other, right? It can be dynamic.
00:22:36
Speaker
um But I want to hold both in frame. And maybe somebody has interest only in interpersonal dignity. Cool. Then go forth and make that happen. Do your thing. Yeah, exactly. Like we don't have to have everybody working on the same thing in the same way either.
00:22:54
Speaker
But as a whole community, I hope we can hold both. For sure. So that we can fight the big structural battles and get the small daily interactions right as well. So both at the same time.
00:23:07
Speaker
And so often those things feed into each other. The small everyday things are being added into the sort of wider tapestry of ah the the lack of inclusion for trans and non-binary people. And so we can tackle them at the
Impact of Small Gestures
00:23:25
Speaker
same time. and And I actually wanted to ask you a little bit further about this with regards to um what is it that people are missing when they treat things like names or pronouns or certain language or um how someone has spoken about it treating those things as just small insignificant things what it what it is we're actually missing
00:23:45
Speaker
nothing Yeah. Well, a few things. Sometimes when people think about these types of efforts, especially if they're unfamiliar or new to that person, they think about, oh, this is so complex and why do i have to do this extra stuff? You know, we never have to do this before, you know, yada, yada, yada.
00:24:05
Speaker
When actually it doesn't take that much extra effort. I mean, sure, there might be a little practice to begin with, depending on what it is and how long you've known that person, et cetera. But really, we're not talking about anything super duper intensive, you know?
00:24:22
Speaker
And so yeah why not do something small to help somebody and support somebody um that actually makes a big difference over time, especially in contrast to what might be happening happening with other people.
00:24:38
Speaker
They have kind of a constant struggle with others, but with you, it's really lovely and what a fresh breath of air. um So you can make a big difference in people's lives for relatively low cost, so to speak, right, from terms of effort.
00:24:57
Speaker
And just because something is low effort doesn't actually mean that it has low importance. I think sometimes people equate that. They're like, oh, what's the big deal that I did this? Like, oh, this is a freaking big deal. um That person will remember. Like we hear so many stories from trans and non-binary folks, and they're like, this one time this person did this very subtle thing, and I'm still thinking about it 10 years later, right? Mm-hmm.
00:25:22
Speaker
Like that's a big deal. And so go for those things. And, you know, they're not that big of a deal for you, but they are for the other person. And then ah certainly within organizations, there are bigger issues that they can focus on and and delve into. and certainly have likely more resources to do so, and that also have broader benefit beyond trans and non-binary folks.
00:25:52
Speaker
So yeah, those are just some additional things that are kind of behind that ah common misconception. I want to go on to talk about non-binary people here because we're obviously the most important part of this conversation. Clearly, clearly. But no, because there is just a little bit little bit more...
00:26:14
Speaker
ah pushback when it comes to to non-binary people if if that's the right way of putting it and so I kind of wanted to ask you about whether non-binary people can be sort of become the pressure point for this like that's the place where like and you mentioned this at the beginning where even some trans people will say like okay but that's too far Like you're either a man or you're a woman. And so, they yeah, I kind of wanted you to go into that. It becomes really complex when non-binary people are involved.
00:26:47
Speaker
Yes. um It's because there is... There's a lot of things happening here, but this is something that has is really kind of um a big dynamic in the trans and non-binary community. um And what people are afraid of when they're saying these kinds of things under the broader banner of this is too much, right? These are all examples, but this is a very prominent one, is um
00:27:19
Speaker
well that we're worried that supportive people have a limit. And we're worried that they're going to say, is too complicated now. um why Why aren't you just fitting in? Like, what are you doing here? You know, like this kind of commentary or they even trans binary folks can feel that themselves, right? not just about cisgender folks, but And basically the the message there is you're a burden, you're taking up too much space, you're demanding too much, you know on and on and on.
00:27:53
Speaker
And it puts this immense pressure on non-binary folks who it takes so much just to even get to understanding oneself, right? Much less than to share that with others.
00:28:08
Speaker
And then to constantly be figuring out how to be in the world, how to bring it up with people who are unfortunately making assumptions and that's either require a correction or Depending on the situation, you just let it go. But it's like constant calculus. It's so much effort. um And not because non-binary is something complicated. it isn't because we know that because kids often have no ti no struggle with this, right? If you tell them. um I mean, that's not the only test, but...
00:28:47
Speaker
yeah so But it it just it's not something complicated. But I think what is helpful to acknowledge that it is something unfamiliar to people. um And just because something's unfamiliar doesn't actually mean it's complicated. It might look that way at first glance.
00:29:05
Speaker
But once you start to kind of get into it and really look at it and be with somebody and try, you start to see it's not actually a burden. It's this opportunity to understand and expand one's emotional intelligence, social flexibility,
00:29:25
Speaker
it really allows people to exercise a muscle that we don't get to a lot because in our society, we kind of box people and categorize them and everybody's kind of in a neat neat nice nice, neat bundle that never moves.
00:29:39
Speaker
And then to really look and actually understand somebody um is a big deal and a huge gift. And so, yeah, but it does require to kind of wrestle with the discomfort of unfamiliarity to begin with. It doesn't stay that way.
00:29:59
Speaker
But so those are some of the things that I hope in kind of talking it through, we can get to the other side of, at least within the community, possibly even for cisgender folks who want to be allies. But this is a particularly unique thing among non-binary folks.
00:30:15
Speaker
I think there's that that's that kind of um dynamic between I don't understand this yet and this person is asking for too much. And those two things are not ah that just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that the person is asking for too much. And we actually had this conversation.
00:30:34
Speaker
in ah in one of our comments sections on ah the episode about no pronouns where some people will go by she ah she, her, they, them, he, him, and a whole mix of others. But some people prefer to have no pronouns at all and just use their name. And we were discussing that and I was saying how...
00:30:54
Speaker
um I can feel that that would be something that maybe I would like, but I hold back on that because I don't want to make things too difficult, like too hard for for people, which is not a good reason to not do that. And in the comment section of that specific clip, there were trans people saying, this is too much. Like you're, you're asking for too much. You're like you're going to make things difficult for everybody else by asking for that. and it was such a like ah once I got my own ego out of the way it was such a a clear like um I'm so scared like that if to me that person was just so afraid of what that will mean when we make things complicated when it's not complicated it's just um not what people expect but
00:31:44
Speaker
ah it's ultimately all of that comes down to the fear of what might happen if we accept that people are a bit more complex than we originally thought there's stuff happening for somebody who is dismissing whether it's on this topic or pretty much any other really yeah there are parallels for sure even if there's kind of unique specific aspects here it's like people are trying to as best they can to kind of keep acceptance in place, but they feel it's very fragile. So then we got to really keep on top of all the things that, you know, risk that in any way and difference being a very obvious one. I think we're very visual, very auditory for those who have these capabilities. Um,
00:32:33
Speaker
people And so as a result, that's a very easy thing to kind of hone in on it and be like, stop it, you know, don't rock the boat. You know, this is not that important. So minimizing, which what we talked we talked about just recently, and then policing, controlling somebody. yeah, that's a way to maintain what is considered to be a fragile acceptance. And right now, the truth is that acceptance is fragile, right? For sure. yeah People are leaving the support. I don't know if it was they didn't really understand what kind of support they were providing and now disagree with that support or what the, I mean, there's a lot to that um changing landscape. But if you feel like you're in quicksand,
00:33:21
Speaker
you're going to fight as hard as possible to, you know, get to secure land, right? As an analogy. And so, and that can involve other folks.
00:33:33
Speaker
The other thing in terms of, especially if it's, we're asking for too much piece is that we're often thinking about things in the abstract, right? Many people don't actually know a trans or non-binary person. And so it's really easy to be like, oh yeah, I don't get this. And so I think it's going to be hard.
00:33:50
Speaker
I was, yeah, I going to ask you about this because it's so true. this This um sort of fire that's coming against the trans and non-binary communities are so abstract because most people but have no idea. They've never met a trans person that they
Cisgender Understanding of Trans Issues
00:34:08
Speaker
know of. And so I'm so fascinated by that, like this sort of um flame that's been, what's the phrase where it's been may not ignited yes yeah it's sort of it's so um different to the way people would actually converse if they had a trans person in front of them or non-binary person in front of them and i i wanted to um ask you specifically about that and why does something like uh non-binary people or no pronouns or something that it's even smaller the community is even smaller than than that than trans people as a whole why it
00:34:48
Speaker
yeah I'm feeling like there's sort of cis people turning in on trans and non-binary people. Trans and non-binary people are turning in ah amongst themselves and it's all the same thing. yeah oh my gosh, right?
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, and you're right that it's people thinking in the abstract about some fictitious person because they don't have somebody they know and can map all kinds of things that don't get challenged. price When you're in relationship with somebody actual in front of you, all of those preconceived notions can be challenged. And I've actually had friends who have had a lot of preconceived notions, many misinformed, and been like kind of stunned and be like, wait a second, you're not this, this, and this. like i who are Who are you?
00:35:38
Speaker
And you you're not wanting that much. Okay, wow. um Maybe I have need to resort that. right So being in front of somebody and being in relationship is vastly different from you know conjuring up images, which are kind of fear-based stories. that one tells oneself. So once you get into a relationship with someone, it actually becomes much easier. It's really like this person has stated it. Thank goodness they've clarified it. I don't have to guess or wonder. They've told me. And here I am going to make my best effort. This person likely is going to be okay with some mistakes as I learn it, right? Like,
00:36:17
Speaker
it's just it's um and it's because sometimes people are like think that you know all trans people are going to be mad at one mistake you know for forever in a day it's like no that doesn't generally happen you know um and this is somebody you care about and so you're motivated um and so just i think humans are wired for that relational empathy and and it does trump this abstraction or this reasoning that we sometimes get into when we don't have a trans or non-binary person in in front of us, or if we're doing it online, right? We can get into these dynamics and it's just like, well, let's try it in front of each other and let's try to get past some of that fear-based thinking.
00:37:01
Speaker
As you were speaking, I just remembered a comment that we received on on our YouTube account that I want to read out. or I'll put it on the screen as well for those watching. but If you're listening, I'll read it out because it's such a good example of this, which is somebody said, I'm here because I Googled what to trans what do trans people think about Dave Chappelle's jokes because I've heard a lot of people not from the community giving their thoughts, including the clown comments above. ah To hear, I just wish they were more original, which is what Kai and I said, is way different to what the news says. And that's so true that there's this idea that trans and non-binary people will ah feel a certain way. And so therefore, I'm going to respond from that. And you haven't ever spoken to a trans person.
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah. And there's many different responses, most of them pretty reasonable, right? And, or I would say pretty much all of them or vast majority. And so, yeah, it's, it's really important. And that's such a good example. I'm glad you brought that forward because, you know, um and that kudos to that person for kind of fact checking it too. Most people just kind of have a thought and they're like, yeah, that's true without checking it. Yeah.
00:38:13
Speaker
with people who are themselves a part of the community, right? So, yeah. um So I have two questions that are just in my head now.
Advice for Cis People on Inter-community Conflicts
00:38:24
Speaker
If I've missed something, let me know. But the first question that I have is for cis people listening, what should they be doing when they hear or if they hear one trans person dismissing another trans person or non-binary person's needs um in this way that we've been talking about?
00:38:40
Speaker
Because that would be, I would imagine, really hard to handle. Oh, yeah. People shy away from that. They're like, that's an inter-community thing and y'all sort it out. Leave me out of it. back to me when you're done and kind of walk away. Right. And I understand that hesitation, especially if somebody is new to the discussion or the issues, you don't want to kind of get into deep waters that you're unfamiliar with. um But if somebody is saying, you know, it's one thing if people are speaking from their own experience, that's their experience. Right. And we don't need to
00:39:17
Speaker
you know, ah manage that at all, right? it's more when people start to talk about other people's experiences, especially in a negative way or in a way that's controlling of them, to be like, you know what, um I hear, you know, it's it's kind of summarizing what they're saying, not to agree with it necessarily, but more just to say you're hearing them, right? Because oftentimes,
00:39:42
Speaker
If we don't hear them, people will continue to repeat the same thing, right? Because people do want to be heard. um And we can frame it within this is a concern, right, that they're raising. um And then just to be curious, like, is there anything underneath that, that, you know, what else might be there for you? that that's at play? Like, what what are you worried about happening? And kind of get them to play out the tape. Because sometimes they can start to see, and then like they can see their own kind of like, oh yeah, that's maybe not the reality of it. Or maybe I'm overstating it.
00:40:23
Speaker
And if they don't see that, then you can say, actually, that's not my experience of the community. Even if you've had a limited one. And to be like, I've seen different things related to that. I mean, we'd have to have an example to go through it, but you know what I mean? Just getting people to to think it through. And you don't have to have all the answers either, right? But and just a counterpoint to say, actually, that's not my experience. And if you have a specific example, then to bring that into, because that kind of allows that to function as a bit of a counterpoint, a weight against where this person is headed.
00:41:00
Speaker
And you may not resolve this entirely for that person. But I think these are important seeds that get planted that then later with some additional watering and other people talking will maybe open things up for that person.
00:41:16
Speaker
For sure. My last question then is sort of on the other side of this is what would you say to someone who has like a trans or non-binary person who has been made to feel like they are too much by the very people that they hoped would understand?
Support for Marginalized Trans Individuals
00:41:33
Speaker
I mean, the thing that I want to say to them is that we we have their back, right? We're here working at Transfocus and you know with other organizations and other people in the community that this the few that do think that way are not.
00:41:53
Speaker
like There's more people than others. ah that are in support of folks than there who are looking down on them or controlling them or saying is too much, right?
00:42:04
Speaker
I know it's hard to lose sight of that because those voices can be quite loud or seem louder, especially online. But there is enough space. oh We have to widen the circle.
00:42:17
Speaker
um And we are capable of it as human beings. It might take a few steps to get there, but it is definitely not asking for too much. And in some cases, I would say we're asking for too little. Agreed. It's like but sometimes when I think about it I'm like, we're asking for very basic things.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah. Pronouns, names. Like, we're not asking that um a huge statue of gold be made of us, you know? That's next on the agenda, by the way. Yeah, exactly.
00:42:54
Speaker
a We are, you know, and we're asking for healthcare, care and you know? Et cetera. But um so I appreciate why people get nervous when they hear others respond in that way and and they can feel self-conscious and like, oh, maybe I shouldn't. um And to the degree people feel safe to ask for things, I understand that takes time too to get there. But I would invite folks to connect with people who do support them in that journey and to go for the things that they need and want in a stepwise manner that is safe for them.
00:43:32
Speaker
for sure well thank you so much Kai I think this is a really interesting one and the one that maybe cis people might not realize is at play so I think it's really important that we talked about it and thank you so much thank you it was really good to talk about it and i hope you have a good rest of your day thank you you too see you bye bye