Transcript
matt: Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Apocalypse Duds. I am your co-host, Matt Smith.
Conor Fowler: and i'm the other co-host connor flower
matt: And today we've got a I don't want to call him a legend, but I mean, kind of, you know, one of the dudes that's been around for a very fucking long time. Author of The Mangle Stripe.
matt: um One of, in my opinion, the most stylish people that I've known through the internet menswear scene. a man with great taste, Nico Mazzaro.
matt: ah Welcome to the show, Nico.
Nico: Thanks for having me, guys.
matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been, a yeah. like we we i don't know why i hadn't thought about, like, oh shit, Nico should come on. But happy to make this happen. How's it going today?
Nico: Good. I'll say, like, you know, I've been around for a while, but i don't feel like I've been the most opinionated or outspoken person. So I totally understand it.
matt: Yeah, for sure.
Conor Fowler: Listen, when I was a young buck in Baltimore and I was like trying to figure out the scene, right?
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: There were people in New York who sort of had it figured out. And you were one of those people, ah Chris Fenimore, among some others, you know, young people ah that were like doing stuff that like had bylines and stuff like that.
Nico: ah yeah
Conor Fowler: So that was tight. And here you are still working.
Nico: Thank you. Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm sure we'll get into this, but ah when when something like this is your passion, it comes easily and like you naturally gravitate towards it.
Nico: And I think that's why I've been in it so long as, you know, I've always loved it and I still love it and hopefully I always will love it. So yeah.
matt: Yeah, totally. Totally.
Nico: That's what makes it fun.
matt: Fuck yeah. So Nico, where are you from and where are you now?
Nico: I'm from a small town about an hour north of New York city called Bedford. Uh, it's right on the border of Connecticut.
matt: Okay, gotcha.
Nico: It's really small town. Uh, if you know, if you watch like any like preppy movie or like, uh, like 1970 movie love story.
Conor Fowler: And
Nico: It's very much like that kind of world is is what I grew up in.
matt: okay
Nico: and I wasn't necessarily a part of that.
matt: Right, right.
Nico: Yeah, I went to public school, both my parents were working class. ah Yeah, I did that, moved to New York for a little bit to the city, lived there until 2020, one of those pandemic breakups where I moved all my stuff in with my parents and was like trying to figure out like what do I
matt: Oh God, yeah.
Nico: And I was like, I just want, you know, Better weather, sunshine, the ability like go outside and breathe fresh air not be cooped up. And California was the next logical place, uh, besides New York and especially with like working in men's fashion, ah Los Angeles is really like the only other city it seemed viable to live in at the time.
matt: Totally.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: And so I moved out here in 2020 and I've been living in Silver Lake for the past few years, which is great because it's probably the closest to like parts of Brooklyn in a way where it's like semi walkable where I live at least like there's a lot of cafes and coffee shops, bars.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Nico: And if you get like smaller men's rooms, like Mohawk is technically Mohawk General Store is technically walking distance from me.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Nico: There's this small Japanese shop, Anonymousism. You might know them for their socks, which are great, but they have a shop here that they carry a bunch other like Japanese brands.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Nico: And think they have Parabute and some other more like not avant-garde, but like weird technical shoes and that kind of stuff. So, uh, it's nice.
Conor Fowler: sure
matt: Right.
Nico: It's nice to be around like something loosely menswear related.
matt: rightot Right, right.
Nico: There's not much of that out here.
matt: Do you have a car?
Nico: I do. I share it with my partner Ruby.
matt: Okay.
Nico: We're getting married and next May. We're going that in Staten Island. But yes yeah, she was working in entertainment when I met her.
matt: Congratulations.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, congrats.
Nico: She was working for seth Meyers production company a and It was a pandemic, so everyone was picking up hobbies and she was like, let me get back into sewing. Like my grandma taught me how to sew.
Nico: There's like the style of dress I want to try to make. And she made a few for herself and posted it on social media and then friends and random people were asking if she can make them dresses.
Nico: And she kind of slowly built that into a brand and quit her job and was just
matt: Oh shit.
Conor Fowler: Wow. So that's like the dream.
matt: That's sick.
Nico: Yeah, and she's since sort of wrapped that up like that is, if you guys know anything about that, like building a business and running ah a
Conor Fowler: we we've We've struggled, sort of.
matt: Oh my God. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: but
Nico: Amazingly, she like broke even the first couple of years, which is great, like to even do that, not go into debt.
Conor Fowler: Oh, yeah.
Nico: Uh, but yeah, she was like, I just need something so I can like not be working, you know, 16 hour days every day.
Conor Fowler: right
Nico: No breaks. Like you rain, like, even if you're like clocking out or whatever, you're not checking your email, you're still thinking about things.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: it's the dream but it's complicated and hard definitely
matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been, I've been doing vintage full time for eight years and like, it's, I also, the past couple of years haven't put in nearly enough effort and as much effort because it, it fucking drains you.
Nico: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, it's totally soul-sucking. Because it's like busy work, basically. It's like all the shit that you need to do to maintain an online presence is busy work.
matt: Yeah,
Conor Fowler: in
Nico: Yeah, it's it's a lot of menial, like tedium, like just like little little like editing a caption or like copy or like snippeting.
Conor Fowler: Wrote. wrote
Conor Fowler: Writing the fucking copy. All that stuff is so, like like, do Matt and I enjoy writing the copy for the fucking show?
Nico: Yeah.
matt: yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Absolutely not. but We still have to do it every week.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: you know, and try to make it as fun as you can.
matt: Plus, you know, plus we bitched about this before, but the the moving from like a photo type social media thing to a video. Like it's, it's so much.
Conor Fowler: so much work, it adds like so many different levels of work.
matt: Yeah. And like, I, I'm not, I'm not a fucking photographer, but I'm certainly not a videographer.
Conor Fowler: Right?
Nico: Yeah, I kind of avoided it for as long as I could. And then up until ah really like this year, was like, yeah let me just, let me just start doing it.
Conor Fowler: This year was the year I think.
Nico: Let me just start figuring out, like I can start small. Uh, I don't have to show it to people. I can kind of just like start recording videos of myself and see what I like, what I don't like.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: Uh, but yeah, it's a lot, a lot more work than just snapping a photo and posting it.
matt: Right. Yeah. And personally, i don't really, i enjoy funny videos or like animal videos, but if someone is talking about clothes, I could really give a shit.
Conor Fowler: I would rather read it
matt: Yeah. I'd much rather read it.
Conor Fowler: I always rather read it.
Nico: Yeah, it's easier to
Conor Fowler: And it's like, yeah, and it's like, addd insertion is like the seemingly the main motive behind them, the pivot to video is like, they can just serve you more ads in that way.
Nico: totally. Yeah. I mean, uh, yeah, we can probably talk more about like the capitalists overtones on everything, but it is, yeah, it's detrimental to creativity and to actual, like,
matt: Oh, yeah. Yeah. yeah
Nico: exploration i think like naturally finding good shit is
Conor Fowler: It's so killer. Cause like, we want to be doing this stuff that we'd like to be doing, you know, which is basically like talking to people, uh, and like editing the show is a pain in the ass and like marketing the show is a pain in the ass. So it's just like, you do the thing that you love, I guess.
Nico: yeah i mean as long as the you know the main part of what you're doing is what you love like The other stuff sucks, but it's kind of just like a thorn in your side. It's not like, it's not as soul sucking as like clocking into nine to five that you hate.
matt: Yeah, if I had to respond to emails in like a fucking office environment every day, I might actually kill myself. Like that sounds like the worst possible. And I know i know people do it to get by or some people actually enjoy it.
matt: But like that shit just ain't for me.
Nico: yeah I think it's a personality.
Conor Fowler: It's very boring. It's extremely boring. It's like if you can't just like make your focus really, really small and do exactly what you're asked to do, you're like, fuck, you're like twiddling your thumbs and then whatever HR person is like breathing down your neck.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: It's really a dream. ah
Nico: Yeah.
matt: So, Nico, you've been in the menswear industry for ah fucking while now. um Could you give us kind of but like a quick CV rundown?
Nico: Yeah. Yeah. I always tend to go long winded with this stuff. So let me stick to the CV. Uh, yeah, I mean, really like my first ever shot I got in the industry was through, Lawrence Slossman who does this podcast, but he was on Tumblr, uh,
Nico: technically like a year after I got on there. So I was on there first, but ah yeah, we were, we became friends through Tumblr and then I found out he had a blog and we, you know, when I was out of college, we met in New York and he helped me get an internship at this PR agency called BPMW.
matt: Yes, yes.
Nico: they were representing, you know, like Mark McNary had the tree torn sneakers that were the cool thing at the time.
Conor Fowler: right
Nico: And Ed Stussy and some other like big names.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Nico: ah I think like, don't know, some streetwear stuff as well. But I, that was like my first real like foot in the door in the industry. And it was really just thanks to him giving me a cosign and telling them you should hire this kid, sight unseen.
matt: Right.
Nico: and ah that was a lot of like menial like email list building and that kind of stuff like really not fun at all but i was like i'm in it like i'm in the scene like i'm part of this thing that like they were putting on the capsule trade show that had like our legacy and
Conor Fowler: Sure. Admin. Right.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: ah I mean, the Ovadia brothers who I met through that, ah that became my next job. But I also did some retail for Save Khaki at actually like pay the bills.
Conor Fowler: Mm.
Nico: But I was living with my parents, I couldn't afford anything. We were getting like $5 Chipotle for lunch and saving half of it for the the train ride home as much.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Nico: ah Yeah, and so i did that for maybe six months. And then Lawrence and another friend of mine, Justin Chung, were doing a photo shoot with this brand of Audion Sons.
Nico: And the two brothers who were running that mentioned that they needed some help. They were kind of doing everything themselves at the time. yeah And both Lawrence and Justin vouched for me and said, know, he's looking for something full time and he's willing to do whatever you need.
Nico: And he like to their credit, like they, they thought I had, you know, the taste level and the eye, but the attention to detail to get things right. And so that became my first real job in the industry. i was like,
Nico: technically special projects coordinator for them. and That was my title, but I was the sole employee. So I did literally I i was like getting fabrics, watches and samples.
Conor Fowler: So
matt: Yeah, yeah. yeah
Nico: And then when we place an order, we would, I would go down and pick up the rolls of fabric in the garment district and haul them over to the factory or to the showroom.
Nico: And yeah, I was doing all the like the actual heavy lifting metaphoric.
Conor Fowler: so it was like the mechanicals of the brand to like.
Nico: Yeah. Yeah. And I would put together, you know, I do fittings and models and put together looks for the look books. And, uh, they did a couple runway shows and, uh, you know, a few years in they pivoted to athleisure entirely.
Nico: And, uh, a lot of like derivatives of like,
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: Right, right.
Nico: runway fashion, ah you know, like high fashion brands, just like doing like knock their knockoff version of something that was trendy.
matt: Right.
Nico: ah i stayed a little longer than I probably needed to, but I think it goes back to that personality difference of like people who want to clock into a safe nine to five job. I was like, at least I have this, it's secure.
Nico: it kind of sucks now but like maybe they'll they'll change their mind and they'll get back to the tailoring roots they started with which never happened
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: Right. Yeah. That honestly, that shift is one of the most like stark things that I think I've seen from like a modern brand in such a weird way.
Nico: yeah a lot of people A lot of people who are there to experience that, you know, it's like a cautionary tale of like everything you shouldn't do as a brand.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Nico: if But ah yeah, in the meantime, I was, you know, the whole reason I got any work in the industry was being a part of the mentor community.
Nico: And a lot of that was just like showing up, showing up to events, going to your favorite shops, hanging out.
matt: Yeah,
Nico: You Matt, I met you at Epilet when you were there and would just hang out there with like you and Jacob Gallagher and whoever else, you know, Chris Fenimore, that whole crew just talking about everything out.
matt: yeah yeah, totally.
matt: Yeah, yeah. Those were some fucking fun times, too.
Nico: Yeah, I remember Gian de Leon too, like he and I, he'd be like, yo what are you doing today? Like I'm going to Gentry and just go to the shop and like hang out for like a few hours ah and then get like gelato or get pizza or something.
matt: Right, right.
Nico: And that was like our day.
matt: Right.
Nico: So yeah, I was still doing that stuff in my downtime and i was doing a photo shoot with CHTM. I was helping him style a shoot in his hometown. He had just sweet to the owner of CHTM shop. He was...
Nico: I think it's Nyack, New York. i He was living there at the time.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Nico: We did a photo shoot out there and I was kind of venting to him about work and he was telling me, ah there's this like jewelry shop next door or like down the street, you should interview with them. And at the time I had really long hair, i was kind of in a more exploratory phase of my life.
Nico: style journey and i had an interview with these guys and they're telling me well you know you might we might need you to cut your hair at least like have it tied back in a ponytail and also you can't hate rich people you don't hate rich people right and
Conor Fowler: you
matt: Ha ha ha ha
Conor Fowler: Ha!
Nico: There were just like so much so many like little things here and there that I was like, this is this is not like this is going down a bad road. like This is how the conversations are starting. like It's not going to get any better from here.
Nico: So i was feeling a little disillusioned and like maybe I should just stick around at this job that I hate. And my friend, Jake Metzer, who I also met through Tumblr, he ah mentioned to me, we got a coffee and he was telling me, hey I'm working with this new startup.
Nico: It's a men's or a marketplace. You might've heard of it It's called Grailed.
matt: oh
Conor Fowler: Can you hear me?
Nico: how you I was like, oh, dude, yeah, I saw like I saw what you guys are doing. It's really cool. And he said, well, we're looking for someone to answer emails like we don't have anyone who can answer these emails professionally.
Nico: And I know you're connected in the industry like you probably know someone. Right. And ah immediately I was like, dude, just hire me like I'll do it like I'll quit my job today and start next week.
Nico: Just let me know.
matt: Right.
Nico: And he asked me what I wanted to get paid. And he kind of laughed at what I asked and said, dude, we can pay you more than that.
matt: Oh, fuck yes.
Nico: Oh, wait. ah Wow. This is like a real, like,
Nico: This is actually happening. And, uh, yeah, it was more of like a tech company than a fashion company, but Jake, uh, had brought, helped bring Lawrence on, ah this guy, Eric Poon, who is kind of the creative director in a way.
Nico: a few other people from the scene, were brought in, you know, Gian DeLeon was like, well, it's like a consultant early on. And they had Virgil Abloh coming to the office.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Nico: And so I was part of that, like, how do we get more fashion people to be a part of the team and
Nico: incorporate their expertise into this product we're building as a tech company. And so while I was answering emails, I was also helping build out the blog with Lawrence and Jake and figuring out, you know, what are some of the topics we should cover? who are the brands we should highlight?
Nico: They're doing the grilled 100, which was a hundred of like the coolest stuff you could find on Grailed.
matt: Right.
Nico: And, you know, they were getting stuff from these Japanese brands like Number Nine and Undercover and mixing that with Helmut Lang and Raf Simmons. And I had these DRO boots that I sold the company that i really regret selling because they were my favorite boots.
Conor Fowler: Mm-mm.
Nico: They're like these side zip motorcycle boots that fit me perfectly. They kind of went with like everything I was into at the time, but I was so excited to like be a part of this really cool thing. I was like, these are the best boots I know of. Like we got to put these in the collection.
Nico: yeah, I got rid of those, but there's been a lot of stuff along the way like that, that I'm like, man, I wish I still had that.
matt: Oh, don't we all, don't we all have these?
Nico: Uh, yeah, but anyway, that was, you know, those are the early days of Grailed. I was like the 10th person there and built out, built out a team under myself. Uh, I want to say like, it was around like eight people when I left.
Nico: Uh, but the whole company like, you know, blossomed into like ah company of like 200 plus people.
Nico: Yeah, really big growth in seven years I was there and then they sold to Goat Group, which was kind of my sign that it was probably time to leave.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Oh, yeah.
matt: Understandable.
Nico: But yeah, it was, you that happened in October of 2022. And then i was sticking around and they were like figuring out the restructuring and they're like, okay, we need you to like help, uh, integrate our community team with goats and whatever. And I was just like, man, I like,
Nico: I really don't want to like do this. Like I, I didn't, it wasn't exciting to me and it was kind of like another pivotal moment. Like when I was at Oavadi where I was like, do I stay in something that's comfortable or do I actually like take a risk on something that might be more rewarding? And, uh,
Nico: it was kind of kismet that like at that same time, this headhunter reached out to me. was the first time I've been like poached for anything ever, but he told me he was working with Buck Mason and they were looking for someone to help with brand storytelling, which I didn't really understand what they needed or what they wanted from me, but i was like, sure.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: Like, yeah, I can do that. Like I basically helped build, uh, the brand of grailed into what it was and same thing with ovadia like i was the sole like contact for p for pr and for marketing needs so i had more than enough experience and i was like yeah let me give this a shot like it'll be cool to work for another up-and-coming brand but they didn't give me a job description
matt: Right.
Nico: or ah any sort of like structure around what I would be doing day to day, which is kind of how the company is. It's very entrepreneurial, which can be beneficial in some ways, but I found it really challenging to, know, do my best work in that kind of environment.
matt: Right, right.
Nico: was two years, you know, two years of kind of figuring that out there and and did a lot of stuff I was proud of but ultimately it was becoming more and more challenging to get everyone on the same page about the work I was doing and feeling good about it and kind of came to a mutual agreement that uh
matt: Right.
Nico: it would be better for me to just like move on and move past that so i left buck mason in december of last year and for the past you know eight or nine months now i've been full-time freelance kind of just doing contract work and doing my substack
Conor Fowler: which is tight. I mean, Substack is like, I don't know, it's kind of, it's kind of miraculous that someone didn't come up with it before.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Nico: Yeah, it feels to me like an extension of both the blog spot and WordPress and that era of blogs and where and Twitter, like even like, you know, it's got the notes feed, which is very similar to threads and Twitter and all that kind of stuff.
matt: Right. Right.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: So it combines a lot of like, it's, it's, they're kind of trying to become like a full package social media service. But what I like about it is the long form content. And the fact is if there's a thread you want to pull on, you can fully explore that.
matt: Yeah, the long form, it like long form writing has such a, such a feel all to it and can like really show you the bigger picture. And I miss that about social media. Like that's part of the reason I like Tumblr or, or blogspot whatever.
Nico: Yeah, I think it's it's like crucial to... So the way I view personal style and like fashion as a whole is ah like anything else, it's a journey. And I think there's an important part of that journey, ah which is exploration.
Nico: And that never really goes away. Like I'm still exploring, I'm still learning stuff every day. But it's definitely harder to explore things on most forms of social media because of the algorithms and because everything is kind of, you know, flashes in the pan that are really exciting for
matt: Right.
Nico: five seconds, 30 seconds, whatever it is. And then, ah and then people move on from it and you can kind of you can kind of see that with trends nowadays where things are moving so fast that nothing's actually really sticking.
Nico: And I don't think people are forming an identity around their clothing the way they used to.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: right Yeah. And then you also have like, you have the lingering trends from 10, 15 years ago that like are now mainstream.
matt: And it's ah it's an interesting like dichotomy between the two.
Nico: Yeah. And I think the lingering stuff too, it's kind of taken for granted and
Nico: there's less, there's less curiosity about that. I think people are curious, you know, I don't want to like discredit anything, but I do feel like
Nico: that social media has basically like the brain rot from that has kind of made it hard for people to think as critically or as deeply about things. It's all gotta be like served to you on a silver platter. Otherwise you don't have the patience for it.
matt: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I can see that indeed as I scroll through Instagram Explorer for hours on fucking end every day for no real reason.
Nico: ah yeah. and
Conor Fowler: Which it's sad, but like, i mean, not even not even to talk about yesterday's events, but like that... event is like a flash in the pan too.
Conor Fowler: Like you would think that like a public execution would be like, I don't know, people would be like, Oh my God, this is horrible.
matt: Right. Right.
Conor Fowler: ah
Nico: Thank
Conor Fowler: but you know, it's just going as it, as it has been.
matt: It'll be forgotten in two weeks by the vast majority of people.
Conor Fowler: Right. Right. Exactly.
matt: If that. If two weeks.
Conor Fowler: If, if two weeks, two weeks is a long time.
Nico: Yeah. I mean, i don't know how deeply I want to get into all this, but like you look at the civil rights movement, right. And there were like, even, okay, like let's relate this back to style, like that era of style, there were real figures.
Nico: There were real icons of style from the fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, even up until like the early two thousands and
matt: Yeah.
Nico: in recent years, there are people, yeah like, I like how like, uh, Austin Butler dresses sometimes.
Nico: I liked, you know, Shia LaBeouf style, like a while back was like, well, there's people like that nowadays, but there's not as much, uh, consensus.
Conor Fowler: he
Conor Fowler: The guy from the bear, right?
Nico: Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't know if I agree with that, but I guess that
Conor Fowler: What that he's if that he's like a popular guy, he's a super popular guy.
Nico: ah yeah
matt: Wait.
Conor Fowler: People want his t-shirt.
Nico: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I guess we're talking about Zeitgeist. Yeah, he is like in the Zeitgeist as icon.
matt: Wait, Jeremy Allen White? I don't watch The Bear.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I don't watch the bear either, but the point is people like his t-shirt.
matt: Okay.
matt: He is playing Bruce Springsteen and looks fucking fantastic in the biopic trailer, so I'm going give him that one.
Nico: Yeah, I mean, that's cool. Yeah, I guess, yeah
Nico: But that's like relevant now. I don't know if he'll be relevant five, 10, 15 years right.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: No, and I'm not saying he's like a Martin Luther King Malcolm X. Like, they they he's a flash in the pan, too, for sure.
Nico: right
matt: Yeah, I mean...
Conor Fowler: And that kind of, I see what you're saying. Like, it really is um significantly reduced expectations or something.
matt: yeah Yeah, I think about the fuck the red carpet pics of Colman Domingo, what, two years ago now? That like, I think about it here and there, you know, or like, I'll see a picture, but it was literally like a one week conversation and about how cool he looked.
matt: And like Derek, I talked about it a lot, you know, and then was gone.
Nico: Yeah, I'll say ah sort of yeah the positive side of that is that these things are flashes in the pan because ah there is so much exposure and sometimes you could argue it's overexposure, but I think that's beneficial to the active exploration and learning and growing and developing
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: For sure. For sure.
Nico: your ideas of style and all that. And Derek is actually like a perfect example of that because he, he's able to command that attention.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Nico: He's found ways to use traditional social media to promote more critical thinking, longer form sort concepts and exploring those.
matt: yeah
Nico: Yeah. yeah And I think that, you know, if there were a million Steve McQueen's back in the day, We wouldn't all be like going back to the mood boards of like this one guy who was like actually kind of a piece of shit and not a great human being.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Nico: And we would find ah million other guys who dressed really well and had photos taken of them. is It just like, that just wasn't the case back then. It was like, unless you're a movie star, no one's taking these like glamorous photos of you.
Nico: So I think that's a big part of it.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Nico: ah But yeah, I mean, nowadays, i think most of my inspiration comes from ah my friends and my like real world sort of application of like, what do I actually want to wear today? And ah think A good thing about living in l LA is like the weather is kind of always the same, so I can kind of wear whatever.
Nico: Like I don't have to dress for the weather as much here.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Nico: And a lot of what I've been getting into is a little bit going back to my roots in a way and like settling into the things I like. ah So I guess this is like contrasting with all that exploration and kind of whittling it down into like yeah i've tried I've tried that that stuff and like maybe some of it's for me, some of it's not for me.
matt: right Right.
Nico: And taking the stuff that is for you and just wearing it into the ground. I mean, back in the day, like that's what part of hashtag menswear, the first iteration of it was supposed to be all about was like,
Nico: you buy the one shirt, the one like perfect Oxford shirt, the perfect pair of jeans, perfect sneakers, and then you wear them into the ground. And like you were looking for things with longevity because, uh, that's the stuff that you can wear forever and theory.
Nico: And, you know, shoes that can be resold and that look better.
matt: right Right. The buy less, buy better mentality.
Nico: Yeah.
matt: Which, like, I'm not mad about as misguided as it could be in some ways.
Nico: Yeah.
matt: But, like, yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, it's principally a good idea.
matt: On principle, it's it's a fantastic idea. And, like, I destroy clothing. So I, like, you know, pretty much always have five or six things that I wear all the time until I break them and then I repair what I can and et cetera.
Nico: Yeah, it's a little bit like politics or like as an ideology, it's admirable. But in practice, there's always going to be flaws. And that's part of that's just like part of the human experience, too.
Nico: Like there's things I love, but like, I don't know, ah there's always going to be little flaws with things like nothing's ever perfect. And that's part of the beauty of it.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: Can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.
Nico: Yeah. And as much as like, I have so many clothes that I love, like I'm always looking for that next piece. Like that's never, that itch is never going to go away. And it's kind of annoying because like in the back of my mind, I'm like, I have nice stuff.
matt: Totally.
Nico: Like I wish I could just enjoy this and not be like, Oh, but that other thing is also really nice. And I wish I had that too. Yeah. yeah And maybe like, I don't know.
Nico: I feel like people always talk about like, you know, getting off social media or like, taking a break from like reading or like comparing yourself to others or anything like that. But like, I don't know if it's that, I think it's just like, if you really love clothes, like you're always going to be excited about things you haven't tried yet or things that like, maybe you want to revisit.
Nico: So yeah, that's where I'm at right now. ideologically and
Conor Fowler: Hmm.
Nico: it's fun. Honestly, like i feel like this is a good, I'm enjoying aging into style because I know so much of what I like that it's, it's created a foundation, like a baseline where like I can kind of riff on that and enjoy what I enjoy and then try little things here and there. Like there'll be like one little element I'll tweak on any given day and be like, I wonder if I did this instead.
Nico: And sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't, it's not like the end of the world. it's not like I'm like, questioning like, why did I buy this thing or whatever? Like, it's kind of like, ah
Nico: it impacts me less either way, which is kind of nice. The baseline right there.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Nico: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Have you ever encountered Positively Kathy?
matt: And that's it.
Nico: No.
Conor Fowler: She is a TikTok star. We're going to try to get her on the show because she is like batshit. But she does videos of her outfits and she'll like tweak a little element of it and then cut and then do another thing and tweak a little element of it and then cut.
Conor Fowler: She's a carnivore also. i watched a video of her making a beef tongue. She just like... the The point is the little, like she pops her collar all the time.
Conor Fowler: She's like, and then now I'm going to pop my collar for a little added flair. She's from the South. She's like, really, i don't know.
matt: Oh.
Conor Fowler: She has like millions of followers.
Nico: ah yeah.
matt: this
Nico: I feel like that's what's like missing nowadays is like little affectations that are like, I mean, people, people
Conor Fowler: That's what I'm saying.
Nico: I don't know. Yeah. Maybe it's a risk taking thing, but yeah, I wish there was more of that. Like, I wish there was more just like quirky people like Bill Cunningham became an icon.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Nico: Blue tour quotes became a thing because he was just like, I'm going to take this thing that like these like laborers in France or wherever he was are wearing. And I'm just going to wear that cause it's cheap and easy.
Nico: And like, I can buy 10 them.
Conor Fowler: And it's functional, right? Like I'm a photographer and it has a ton of pockets.
Nico: Yeah. And it's like kind of like a high visibility color. So I'm not going to get like a car in theory.
Conor Fowler: Exactly. Right.
matt: right
Conor Fowler: Right. And that's, that's, that's like the whole point of clothing kind of is like the functionality is at the root of it. um
matt: Yeah, I think that's
Conor Fowler: when we talk about clothing as a need, ah which it isn't considered a need, although it is one, right? Like you need to have clothes, even if you have a shelter, you need to have clothes.
Nico: Yeah, totally. And it's, it's interesting to like, explore the difference between need and want in that context and be like, what, what do I actually need to like express myself?
Conor Fowler: Then what do you need? Right. Right.
Nico: And how much do I want to express myself? Like, do i actually want to do that? Do I want to, and like, what do I actually want to say about myself through what I wear? ah Because it's unavoidable, like,
Nico: Even if you wore nothing that would communicate something.
Conor Fowler: right
Nico: so
matt: Right.
Nico: you have to think about it to some extent.
Conor Fowler: Cause it is like nonverbal communication. It's like probably the most, maybe, maybe the most important or the most influential nonverbal, the most universal nonverbal communication.
Nico: It's a first impression to everyone who observes it. So whether you talk to them or not, whether you get chance to talk to them or not, like they're going to judge you based on that.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Nico: And yeah, that first impression, like if you're meeting someone for the first time and you haven't said any words to them yet, but they see what you're wearing, they're already making a ah judgment of you based on what you're wearing, some kind of assessment, initial assessment.
Conor Fowler: Right?
Nico: And like, from that point, ah everything can either be easier for them to understand about you or ah you might create a challenge for yourself where you're then having to explain, no, like I'm just wearing this because I went to the gym earlier and like I just wanted to be comfortable for the rest of the day or whatever it is. Like,
Conor Fowler: No, I'm wearing a bow tie because I think that it's fashionable.
Nico: yeah, I mean, maybe.
Conor Fowler: Right. ah Yeah, exactly. It's like umpteen reasons for everything. But like, i don't know, when you get to the root of it,
Nico: Yeah. And I also like, I understand like,
Nico: You can also overthink things and over project and overanalyze and like maybe you wear some like niche, like vintage watch that you think everyone's going to be like, oh, wow, he's got that watch.
Nico: He knows so much about watches. And then, yeah, then someone, someone might walk down the street and be like, why are you wearing that old watch?
matt: but
Nico: And another person will be like, oh, that watch like isn't even anything special. Like this other watch is actually better in my opinion
Conor Fowler: Right.
Nico: yeah there's always going to be someone who thinks they're above you and someone who doesn't even care so i mean yeah you can get caught up in that as well and
matt: Yeah. At the end of the day, were we're wearing and appreciating clothes. We're not saving lives.
Nico: yeah yeah and ultimately like if you're actually appreciating the clothes like that is entirely about you and your own enjoyment of it.
matt: Totally. Totally.
Nico: And so, yeah, i think it's important to like make that the focus. And I think what we're probably circling around right now is the idea that like social media takes away from that, uh, especially the short form kind.
matt: right Right.
Conor Fowler: And it's hard too, because we all know the positives of social media, right? Like the relationship building and all like ah knowledge kind of siloing, you know, like communities like Reddit, like have tons of information, you know, that people who are experts have compiled.
Nico: Yeah. and discovery
Nico: Totally. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think it's kind of,
Nico: I'm trying to like figure out how to say this. There are notable drawbacks to it, but it's also the best thing we have right now for the good stuff.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: Right, right.
Nico: So it's kind of like the double, you know,
Conor Fowler: Yeah, good enough for government work. It's like...
matt: but So you've been doing the bagel stripe for 15 years. You started in 2010. Okay.
Nico: yeah, technically i I started on blogspot and I did it for maybe two, two and a half years.
matt: okay
Nico: and And then I kind of took a very long hiatus and I brought it back in 2020 to on Substack.
matt: Okay.
Nico: So I didn't, I wasn't actually like writing it. I was doing other work here and there. Like I was still writing just not, uh, for myself, I guess.
matt: Right, right.
Nico: And in 2022 I realized Substack was kind of like just becoming a bigger thing and similar to when i got into tumblr and even just menswear blogging in the first place i realized like oh there's actually no one who has the knowledge and context that i have that's doing this yet and this is a chance for me to sort of get in on the ground floor again and kind of plant my flag and
Nico: start sharing what I love uh in a medium that I love and see if it works or not and it's kind of like I've i've been like I was on Twitter in 2007 when it like first started I've always been like early on a lot of uh adoption of like new formats and stuff I didn't do that with TikTok just because ah like we were saying it's like
Conor Fowler: he
Nico: very high lift to create a video. But with Substack, was like, Oh, this is like an easy way for me to like, get back into what I love and and do it for myself.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Nico: Because at the time I was still at Grails. And I wasn't like super active on social media. But I wanted to find a way to get back into
Nico: sharing more of myself and my experience and what I love about clothes with other people in a way that like didn't feel to like self-aggrandizing or too like look at me and I think writing is a great way to do that because if you're good at that you're able to find universal themes that keep people engaged and aren't necessarily just about your experience but about you know the underlying values or lessons you've learned through that experience.
Nico: And that was and still is very much the focus of like anything I do. It's how do I take all this stuff I have learned and like share it with people in a way that's relatable and maybe somewhat aspirational, but also like something practical that they can take into their everyday life and use it to inform their relationship with clothes.
Nico: and yeah i've enjoyed doing that like the past few years i've been slowly doing that and then when i left buck mason in december i decided i'm just gonna like go full throttle on this and see where it goes and uh i've been lucky that yeah the the list of subscribers is slowly growing steadily like the all the graphs on like uh following and engagement and traffic and all that kind of stuff. It's like a steady creep up every, every day, every week, every month.
Nico: And it's nice to have a, you know, slow, steady organic growth. That's something else I learned, uh, working at grails and working at just working in any business.
Nico: It's like, that's the kind of stuff that is sustainable and the virality and
matt: yeah
Nico: taking big shots and big risks, like, yeah, there can be payoff, but unless you have a plan on maintaining that, it's, there's no longevity behind it.
matt: yep
Nico: So, yeah.
Conor Fowler: So why we're doing what we're doing, which is, you know, little.
Nico: Yeah. But there's a beauty in that too. And I think, you know, a lot of the stuff I've, I've grown to love over the years, like even outside of clothes, like you know, going back to indie music and ah even brands and like, you know, anyone who's doing interesting stuff, it's always a smaller, smaller person doing it for themselves.
Nico: And it's never the big corporate behemoth.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Totally. Totally. I mean, you know, we we talk a lot on the show about like subcultures and impact on like above clothing or like, you know, just style influence and things like that.
Nico: Yeah.
matt: And like all the shit that Connor and I both love came out of nothing. And then ah it established itself and was like done by normal ass people.
Nico: Yeah. And then that's, you know, it's, uh, you can look at that mainstreamification of things and be embedded, but it's also, that's part of the beauty of it too, is like, if something, something is a good idea and it catches on, it catches on and like, there's no harm in that.
matt: Right. Yeah.
Nico: And there's, uh,
Nico: there can be beauty in that too. And I think that's where I've kind of let go of that sort of like gatekeepiness and like, you know, trying to like,
Nico: preserve the purity of things and I think you know it's really interesting to see how this like next generation who is learning everything through TikTok is exploring fashion i think there's there's some interesting stuff coming out of it I don't I won't discredit entirely ah yeah I think there's some beauty in that as well
matt: right yeah
matt: Oh, God, yeah.
matt: Yeah, same.
matt: It's fucking hilarious to me that, like, hardcore bands or, like, you know, metal, extreme music, whatever bands are, like, going viral on and TikTok, and then their, you know, their next tour has...
matt: but fucking thousands of like people that had never heard them before six months ago but like props to them dude because most of them put in the fucking work
Conor Fowler: I know this young woman, she's obsessed with Allison chains.
matt: wow
Conor Fowler: She's like 22. She's like a black woman from Baltimore. She has like never left the city. She loves Allison chains. She discovered them somewhat recently. And it's like their music is immortal, but I don't know. It's amazing that, that things have this kind of longevity.
matt: Right. I was thinking more like Knocked Loose and Turnstile, just from the hardcore world.
Conor Fowler: No, I know, i know, I know.
matt: like
Conor Fowler: But I'm saying even more broadly than that, like grunge bands are on the way back.
matt: Yeah. Right.
Conor Fowler: Like we' we're talking about the Pixies.
matt: Yeah. Yeah, we're we're we're about to the point, well, we are at the point where there's going to be you know fake AI songs from these seminal bands, which is great.
Nico: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: We got to hear some AI hardcore. That's like what we're doing.
matt: Oh, Jesus fucking Christ.
Conor Fowler: So to lead us out, we have the AI hardcore band. I don't know what we would call them. We could come up with something good though, I'm sure.
matt: Probably, probably. Uh, so turning point that well, turning point was turning, turning point was also a great hardcore band from the eighties, but I digress.
Nico: yeah
Conor Fowler: turning point. Topical topical.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I'm sure.
matt: Uh, so coming from New York, um, you know, and and the just style and kind of like fashion sense that the city emanates, um,
matt: what's what's the scene like in LA? Like, I know there's a lot of vintage, you know, Rose Bowl, et cetera, but what's your take on the LA style fashion scene?
Nico: Yeah.
Nico: I think it's very disjointed. So it's hard to, it's hard for anyone to come to a consensus on it.
matt: Right. Right.
Nico: Uh, there's a lot of like the,
Nico: ERD kind of stuff like, uh, that's, uh, or whatever, like, kind like the, like posts, like St. Laurent kind of like grungy version of that look.
Conor Fowler: rocker type
Nico: Yeah, like rock star kind of stuff. There's a little bit of that still. ah I don't see much of like the brunch hat and like butt wipe tee kind of look at it anymore, which is good.
Nico: But ah yeah, it's a lot of vintage, which is great. A lot of guys that I know who are just like regular guys and not even into clothes. ah yeah California, there's a sort of rich history of design movements out here, especially in architecture and graphic design that I think pervade culture still, like a lot of our favorite
Nico: places to go are like old diners and dive bars and tiki bars. And I think a lot of that trickles into what people wear out here and the vintage they gravitate towards.
Nico: And even the new stuff, like the stuff that Buck Nason is doing, ah you know, a lot of it's like classic, simple, basic stuff, but they also will do like a crazy, you know,
Nico: I don't even know if like Hawaiian prints the right kind of shirt, but like, uh, full art or some kind of like rayon.
Conor Fowler: Batik.
Nico: Yeah. Batik, like some kind of like, like a fun shirt, I think is a easy thing.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Nico: And that's always like any guy in any city or like, you know, even, ah you know, used to be like a going out shirt, right?
Conor Fowler: a
matt: Right, right.
Nico: Like the striped, like Abercrombie or like American Eagle shirt. Uh, Oh man.
Conor Fowler: Express.
Nico: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Oh yes.
matt: Please no, please no.
Nico: Uh, so it's like the, the modern, uh, yeah, there's some of that going on, which is fine.
Conor Fowler: Like a black dress shirt. Okay.
Nico: Uh, my favorite stuff is the vintage stuff though. And I think there's a ah really strong community out here of vintage enthusiasts.
matt: Yeah, it seems like it. ah know you Steven have become like friends and kind of like you work together and shit.
Nico: Yeah.
matt: Uh, world's worst snow shop dude rules.
Nico: yeah
Nico: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, there's also a lot of guys who are starting to get into tailoring now,
matt: Oh shit.
Nico: little and little stuff here and there. you know i think vintage shooting is like ubiquitous because that was what you in the 1930s and 40s, what most people were wearing on a daily basis.
Nico: ah So that's the excuse. And even the 50s, the 50s was actually like peak for like California tailoring.
matt: Right, right. right
Nico: So there's a lot of that stuff floating around. I mean, it's mostly outside of LA, but you can find some good stuff here every once in a while. And even new tailoring stuff, you know, Buck Mason does great stuff.
Nico: I know people who work at Seed Supply, even like Ralph Lauren and, you know, mainstream brands like that that are like, have some kind of tailoring offering.
Nico: think a lot of that stuff's starting to like come back and maybe it's my age and my generation and even the kids who are younger than me, like we're going a lot of weddings and doing a lot of like,
matt: Right, right.
Nico: Uh, fancy, you know, there's really nice, uh, restaurants and stuff out here and the kind of like cocktail bars where you want to dress up to go to them.
Nico: So I think a lot of people are finding enjoyment in dressing up for things here. through occasion-based dressing and through nightlife. I think that's great. And I think it's ah it's fun to see how people are starting to dip their tone to that here.
Nico: And I'm hoping, yeah, hoping and praying for for more of that because
Nico: it's not that exciting otherwise, honestly.
Conor Fowler: um Occasion-based dressing. I like that. I haven't heard about that before.
matt: Yeah, that's a good phrase. Great phrase.
Conor Fowler: I was going to say, i think my theory with the suiting, at least so in 2009, 2010, 2008, whatever, the economy was horrible.
Conor Fowler: And so people were cutthroat about job applications, basically. And so it's like, what differentiates you from the person next to you, probably is your clothing.
Conor Fowler: And so I think people were more interested in tailoring because of that. And I think, you know, with the unemployment rate that we have now, you know, a similar thing is happening too.
Nico: Oh yeah. It's funny in LA too is, uh, everything, there's a higher friction to doing anything out here already. So similar to the economy, like,
Nico: life in general here, it's more challenging to make friends. It's more challenging date people like there's just more competition. ah more expensive. It's harder, like hard to get a reservation anywhere. You're gonna have to sit in like an hour of traffic.
Nico: Uh, there's just like so much, friction against anything that like you want to put your best foot forward and whatever you're doing. And ah big part of that is how you dress and, ah yeah, you're able to stand out more. Like he said if you you put a little more effort into it,
Conor Fowler: Yeah, because we're not talking like ah coattails, you know, but i do think that
Nico: It's pretty simple. it's It's amazing what like, even just putting a ah sport coat on or wearing a button down shirt.
Conor Fowler: just like having pants that don't look like shit.
Nico: instead sure
Nico: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: However, you want to define that.
Nico: It's. are spoken
Conor Fowler: Yeah, exactly.
matt: So i guess to kinda kind of round things out, um you mentioned earlier that you're you know always on the hunt for something. guess to kind of palip cleanse to end the conversation, are there some things that you're actively looking for? Or how do you go about like, oh, I to buy this?
matt: oh i'm hanit but
Nico: Yeah, I'm, I do a lot of buying and selling. I always have like, even on the forums and even on Grailed when I work there. but I've been doing a lot of D pop lately and the stuff I'm gravitating towards on there. Like I have a lot of military stuff from, uh, my buddy will world's worth shift shop.
matt: Yeah.
Nico: And so I'm like covered on that that front and I love that stuff. And I, I actually wear that stuff all the time. Uh,
matt: Also, apologies to Will for saying Steven. I know he doesn't always use the name Steven. So.
Nico: Yeah, uh, no worries. We can maybe edit that out, but, uh, yeah.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Nico: So have some military stuff from Will at World's Risk Surf Shop that I love, but on Depop, I've been looking at heavyweight flannels. I've been looking at more like fifties, sixties, seventies, like mostly like polyester blend shirts with like bigger collars, but, uh, occasionally you can find one that's like a hundred percent cotton ring on.
Nico: And yeah, I think shirts are an easy thing for me. You never have enough shirts. Like I know listeners can't see this, but Connor's backdrop is his closet full of ah shirts and every possible shape size and color and um'm i'm i'm gonna cosign that because uh i love shirts and like that's an easy thing like you can wear the same outfit every day and if you change up the shirt it's basically a new outfit
Conor Fowler: What, you got a new outfit? Oh, that's amazing.
Nico: so yeah that's so i'm like gravitating towards on depop lately and ah
Nico: Yeah, maybe some sweaters too. We'll see. But
matt: Yeah, LA is not really a sweater weather type of place for the most part.
Nico: ah
Nico: not, yeah, not till like January really, if that.
matt: Right.
Nico: So we'll see. I got some time.
matt: Well, fuck yeah, that was a solid answer. And dude, thank you so much for coming on. And yeah, we we only got through like half the question template that we had.
matt: So we'll have you back on some point the next, i don't know, year or so.
Nico: Cool, yeah, I'll be happy to come back.
matt: Okay. Okay.
Nico: Thanks for having me.
matt: Yeah, dude. Um, so, uh, shout out your, you know, your various accounts and things and anything you would like to just before we wrap up.
Nico: Yeah, you can follow me at nickel cobalt, like the ah elements on the periodic table of elements or the Bengal stripe on Instagram and Substack.
matt: Yeah, definitely definitely follow. Nico's been at the the long form riding game a long time and is is pretty fucking up there.
Conor Fowler: uh well thank you all for listening as always uh nico thanks for coming in and if you want to email us you could do that at apocalypse duds at gmail.com if you want to find us we're apocalypse duds basically everywhere um and i'm connor flower
matt: And I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues, and we will see you next week.
