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At the Edge of Bad Taste with Dr. Evan Thomas Woods
0 Plays3 seconds ago
“What if you took the idea about go to hell pants and expanded it to every part of your life?” Our next guest, Dr. Evan Thomas Woods, Senior Lecturer at The Ohio State University, posed this very question on our program this week. Listen up, Dr. Woods is maybe the third or fourth PhD who we have coerced into appearing here, and we got pretty cerebral.
We pondered Columbus, Ohio, “value theory,” ethics and aesthetics, the “need to be systematized,” the ups and downs of veganism, “Standing up against a world that’s becoming flat and conformist,” “use it or lose it” creativity, HIS TRIPLE DIGIT COLLECTION OF JACKETS, fuck you jackets, go to hell pants, pulling inspiration from old paintings, “pattern maximalism,” fit pic philosophy, “school picture day smile,” Ivy brands: J. Press, J. Crew, Ralph Lauren, Chipp, etc, collecting, collections, so throw caution to the wind, and check it out!
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Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Evan Thomas Woods
00:00:02
Conor Fowler
What ho. Today we are joined by the indomitable Dr. Evan Thomas Woods, philosopher, vegan, and in his own words, a clothes horse.
00:00:15
Conor Fowler
His work and presence online are a quiet rebellion against cruelty, against carelessness, against the idea that you have to pick between doing good and looking good. Evan, welcome.
00:00:25
Evan
Yeah, ah thanks for for having me on here. um
00:00:28
matt
yeah
00:00:29
Evan
I realized that I listened to this podcast at like multiple speed or whatever, so hearing you do the the sort of like slow podcaster voice is actually very disconcerting.
00:00:41
Conor Fowler
See, that's got to be an eclipse.
00:00:42
Evan
so I'll try to slow down.
00:00:43
Conor Fowler
That's good. That's good. i like that. ah Well, it's funny. mean, because I know that so many people do listen to podcasts at like X times, right?
00:00:55
Conor Fowler
So the voices are distorted anyway, but I still find it fun to obviously, because like am an indulgent prick. And so do what I do I do what do best.
00:01:07
matt
I mean, i I'm going to share my, you know, my just non-knowledge of tech and say that I didn't know you could speed up podcasts to listen That makes a lot of sense.
00:01:18
Conor Fowler
that. ah
00:01:19
Evan
yeah think Yeah, think about how much time you can save and how much content you can consume.
00:01:23
matt
Yeah, like like, I've been...
00:01:24
Conor Fowler
Because if these idiots would just speak a little faster, my god.
00:01:28
Evan
but
00:01:28
matt
Right. Like I've been listening to, there's a podcast called Hard War that's like a hardcore punk based, you know, podcast. And they had, ah they did a two episode, like almost four and a half hour long interview with Davey Havoc from AFI. And like, I've listened to about three hours of it. And then I was just like, I have to turn this off for right now.
00:01:51
matt
Man, that that would have made that so much, so much better.
00:01:53
Evan
Yeah, you could have been done in two hours and 15 minutes.
00:01:56
matt
Right, right. here I will say, to be fair, he's got a very soothing voice to listen to.
00:02:02
Evan
Okay.
00:02:02
matt
But yeah, maybe I'll start doing that.
00:02:04
Evan
Yeah, otherwise he'll sound like the the the little people in The Wizard of Oz.
00:02:04
matt
Anyway.
00:02:09
matt
Right, right.
00:02:10
Conor Fowler
Right. Who who do represent actually, I'm the representative for the lollipop guild.
00:02:11
matt
ah
00:02:17
Conor Fowler
And that is not the first time that that joke has been made on this program, if you can believe it.
00:02:22
Evan
Oh, no, I can believe it.
00:02:22
Conor Fowler
So is a little bit, yes.
00:02:23
Evan
It's low-hanging fruit.
00:02:24
matt
It's true. It's true.
00:02:26
Conor Fowler
Oh yes. And
Evan's Background and Life in Columbus
00:02:27
matt
ah So so just to you know just to get started, Evan, where are you from and where are you now?
00:02:27
Conor Fowler
that's what we're all about here.
00:02:35
Conor Fowler
Speaking of low hanging fruit.
00:02:37
Evan
Yeah, good. um I guess I'm always curious how much I should be comfortable sharing about myself online, but I'm to throw caution to the wind. I'm originally from Lyonsville, Pennsylvania, a small town, whole dimension less interesting than Squaresville.
00:02:54
Evan
Yeah. um Then I moved to Columbus, Ohio for grad school, where I did ah a PhD at a, here I'll be discreet and say, a large Midwestern university
00:03:07
matt
uh... right right
00:03:08
Conor Fowler
Right, right.
00:03:11
Evan
in philosophy. And I've been there ever since. that was 2012, and I guess it's 2025 now, so 13 Yeah, right.
00:03:17
matt
that's awesome classes act
00:03:17
Evan
one
00:03:18
Conor Fowler
Because you went there and now you are there.
00:03:21
Evan
yeah right i
00:03:22
matt
yeah
00:03:22
Conor Fowler
which is pretty, which is pretty tight. I mean, it's not like you are at a fly by night university. We won't name it, but you know.
00:03:29
Evan
Oh, oh, sorry. Oh, yeah. But, I mean, truth be told, I'm sort of a glorified adjunct um rather than like tenure track or anything. ah
00:03:38
Conor Fowler
Sure, but you still are a professor, which is the point.
00:03:39
Evan
But... Cool. Yeah. No, that's that's true.
00:03:44
matt
Yeah, cool Columbus is also a cool city. Like, I have friends there.
00:03:47
Evan
Yeah.
00:03:48
matt
I've spent ah played there a couple of times when I was in bands years ago. And, like, it's, I don't know, it's got, like, obviously the college football sports things is massive.
00:03:58
Evan
Right.
00:04:00
matt
But, like, it's got some really cool people and, like, you know, little holes in the wall and things that, especially vegan restaurants, too.
00:04:07
Evan
Right, right.
00:04:07
matt
Like, super good.
00:04:08
Evan
Yeah, I love Columbus. it's it's It's great. I actually ran into one of your friends there a few years ago who recognized me from stuff being shared on the podcast.
00:04:18
matt
Oh, really?
00:04:18
Evan
or whatever Yeah. yeah ah Rachel?
00:04:20
matt
Wait, who who did you run into? Oh, Rachel Ryan. Yes, yes.
00:04:23
Evan
Yeah.
00:04:24
matt
She's a one of my best friends. And I came up in 2021, I think, to like hang out for a few days.
00:04:31
Evan
Okay.
00:04:34
matt
And, you know, she lived right on... um like right, you know, kind of in the in the one of the cool parts at that point.
00:04:42
Evan
Right, right.
00:04:43
matt
So, yeah, it was fun.
00:04:44
Evan
Yeah, cool.
00:04:45
matt
That's really funny.
00:04:46
Evan
Yeah.
00:04:46
matt
ah Anyway. um
00:04:49
Conor Fowler
just It's it's small world though. And that's, you know.
00:04:51
matt
Yeah, it really is.
00:04:51
Evan
Yeah, right, right.
00:04:52
matt
Yeah, like, I mean, I guess that's a pretty big distillation of how, like, small the clothing world actually can be, especially, like, the you know, the online clothing world and niche.
00:05:00
Evan
Right.
00:05:03
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:05:05
matt
um But, hey, ah do you want to give us a ah rundown of what you're wearing today?
Unique Style and Fashion Philosophy
00:05:10
matt
That jacket looks sick as fuck.
00:05:11
Evan
Oh yeah, thank you. This is this is new to me. um It's from ah Clubmen Satyrs in San Antonio, Texas.
00:05:18
Conor Fowler
Hmm.
00:05:20
Evan
The union tag puts it between 1968 and 1976.
00:05:24
matt
Man, yes, yes.
00:05:26
Evan
hey what i people pointed out this out before but in a ah podcast about clothing it's kind of weird so people can't see it except for the two of you but it's this like crazy ah orange and red and burgundy and like ah cyan blue paisley thing just huge um and then just like yeah
00:05:46
Conor Fowler
It's amazing. That's usually reserved for like women's wear, right? I mean, I feel like whenever I see something like that at the thrift store, I'm like, that's going to be like a size eight woman's blazer.
00:05:53
Evan
yeah
00:05:58
Evan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, it's, it's the it's you know, the buttons are um men.
00:05:59
Conor Fowler
You know what I mean?
00:06:02
Evan
yeah I mean, yeah, anyway.
00:06:03
Conor Fowler
No, I'm not doubting you. I'm just saying like that they made it in that pattern is unusual.
00:06:06
Evan
Yeah.
00:06:09
Conor Fowler
Uh, especially at the time, I think.
00:06:09
Evan
Well, maybe for ties, right? There's still a lot of paisley ties.
00:06:14
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:06:15
Evan
I listened to another...
00:06:16
Conor Fowler
But that's like a rare area of men's expression where like you can do whatever you want.
00:06:22
Evan
Right, right.
00:06:22
matt
Yeah, I mean, I'm super into like the you know mid to late 60s, like the batik and paisley and whatever, are just like kind of fuck you jackets, I guess, for lack of a better word.
00:06:33
Evan
writing Right, right, right, right.
00:06:35
matt
But like ah personally, i would never wear one because that's just not that's just not how I dress.
00:06:35
Evan
Yeah.
00:06:40
matt
But like on other people, I think they look sick as hell.
00:06:41
Evan
Yeah.
00:06:43
Evan
Yeah. I mean, I think um this is one of those things where you can kind of get away with it if you always wear loud things.
00:06:50
matt
Right, right.
00:06:50
Evan
But you if I'm just like always walking around in like a gray suit or something, and then I like rocked up wearing this and you know I have shorts on as well, it would look absurd.
00:06:57
matt
Yeah.
00:06:59
Evan
Right.
00:06:59
matt
Right,
00:07:00
Evan
I think it only works because I, you know, to the extent that it does work. I think it only works ah because I like do it all the time.
00:07:05
matt
Totally.
00:07:06
Evan
There's just this like consistency about it.
00:07:06
matt
right right totally
00:07:09
Conor Fowler
You must have like a wardrobe of white shirts. I was looking.
00:07:13
Evan
Yeah, well, I do laundry a lot. um
00:07:16
Conor Fowler
Sure, sure.
00:07:17
Evan
So, yeah.
00:07:17
Conor Fowler
No, I'm not going to call you out in that way.
00:07:18
Evan
um
00:07:19
Conor Fowler
I just think like when I went to college, i brought like eight H&M point collar white shirts.
00:07:26
Evan
Right.
00:07:27
Conor Fowler
Dreadful. But what are you wearing? I mean, what's the idea of the white shirt for you?
00:07:32
Evan
um Well, usually i'm just wearing a white shirt because the pattern on the jacket is so loud.
00:07:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah, no, that's what I mean.
00:07:38
matt
Right.
00:07:39
Conor Fowler
It's like, your that's like part of your uniform is to wear the white shirt and the busy tie and the busy jacket.
00:07:40
Evan
Yeah.
00:07:43
Evan
Right, right. Right. um Yeah, I have a few striped ones. I usually end up not wearing those. um Partly, I mean, in the the summer or when it's hot out, right, I have a limited number of short sleeve shirts. Two of them happen to be white and one of them is yellow.
00:08:02
Evan
ah So, you know, limited limited options there.
00:08:02
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:08:05
Evan
And the yellow one might even photograph as white. um
00:08:08
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:08:09
Evan
So, yeah, necessity i sort of demands that I end up wearing these like white shirts or whatever. And I hate buying the things new, so I'm sort of just constrained um by what I can find in in stores or like on eBay or whatever.
00:08:25
Conor Fowler
Well, I didn't know if you had one that you were like, oh, well, this is the shirt that I, i guess the archetype of what you wanted.
00:08:34
Evan
Yeah, so this is just ah this is a J-Press with the the flap.
00:08:38
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:08:40
Evan
Flap, ah whatever the word I'm looking for here is, pocket. um I like the collar roll on it. um I like that it's soft.
00:08:48
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:08:48
Evan
um I don't really wear non-button-down collars, except maybe with black tie, just because they they feel like they're like too far out and I feel like I'm flying away or something.
00:09:01
Evan
um
00:09:01
Conor Fowler
Yeah, they can be odd.
00:09:03
Evan
yeah But that you know that's just my sort of preference. But yeah.
00:09:08
Conor Fowler
I think we're a button down. Well, Matt, I mean, can speak for Matt, but the button down color for me has been like the, it just this sort of, it's like almost obvious.
00:09:21
Evan
Well, and it's nice you have the option to leave it unbuttoned as well, right?
00:09:24
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:09:25
Evan
ah
00:09:25
Conor Fowler
Right. Exactly.
00:09:26
Evan
Whereas, yeah, if you don't have a buttoned uncolor, you don't have the option anymore.
00:09:26
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:09:30
matt
ah look A little spreczatura, you know. Yeah, for me, like, I i like a button-down collar for sure, especially, like, super soft, you know, good roll, you know, great three and a half or so point, a three and a half or so inch point.
00:09:45
matt
um
00:09:46
Evan
Oh, man. Okay, yeah.
00:09:46
matt
But, yeah
00:09:47
Evan
You're really, really particular. I have no idea what the... i i
00:09:49
matt
yeah, yeah, i am I am particular way, in way, way too many ways, but that's just who I am.
00:09:52
Evan
and
00:09:57
Conor Fowler
Well, it just means big, right?
00:09:59
matt
What?
00:10:00
Conor Fowler
It just means big, right?
00:10:01
matt
Yeah, i like ah I like a substantial collar.
00:10:02
Conor Fowler
Like if it's at 3.5 inches, then it means, yeah, then it's, which a lot of shirts are really doomed by the collars, I think.
00:10:02
Evan
Right. Okay, yeah.
00:10:05
matt
You know, like...
00:10:06
Evan
Yeah.
00:10:11
matt
Oh, 100%. Especially, like, more modern stuff, for the most part.
00:10:12
Evan
running Right, right.
00:10:15
matt
Like, you know, you don't...
00:10:15
Conor Fowler
When you started pointing that out, I started seeing it and I was like, damn, that's too small.
00:10:18
matt
You don't want a baby collar.
00:10:20
Evan
Yeah, right. I was sort of trying to to clean out my closet, which, um no surprise, is very difficult.
00:10:20
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:10:21
matt
Yeah.
00:10:28
Evan
But I found all these like just post-2008 J.Crew shirts. And yeah, the collars are like these little tiny Peter Pan collars almost that just button down.
00:10:36
Conor Fowler
yeah and that was like the style at the time i mean bizarre mm-hmm
00:10:36
matt
Yeah, I have no idea why. Right. I mean, you know it it definitely complements the skinny-ass ties that were also very popular at that point. but
00:10:47
Evan
Well, one thing i've I remember or maybe remember reading about is sort of speculating about how clothing got sort of like tighter after the financial crisis.
00:10:58
matt
Yep.
00:10:58
Evan
just Yeah. um So you know maybe it's it's it's part of that.
00:11:02
matt
Yeah, I think so. yeah For me, like if i'm if I'm wearing a tie, it all my dress shirts, or dress, quote unquote, are oxford cloth, unlined cutaway collars, and unlined cuffs, popovers.
00:11:11
Evan
Yeah.
00:11:15
Evan
Yeah.
00:11:16
matt
So that's my preference, personally.
00:11:17
Evan
Yeah. Yeah. Good.
00:11:21
Conor Fowler
So back to your Instagram.
00:11:26
Conor Fowler
You describe yourself as a vegan clothes horse, which is an amazing set of descriptors. ah So I'm wondering, dot, dot. dot When did those two parts of your identity, ethics and aesthetics, start to feel inseparable?
00:11:43
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:11:45
Evan
Yeah. Um, So ah i'm gonna I'm going to start off by doing a little bit of philosophy, I guess. um
00:11:52
Conor Fowler
Please.
00:11:53
Evan
Yeah, so ah I guess these are both things in like value theory, right the the part of philosophy that asks and tries to answer questions like what's the nature of value, what's valuable, and what kind of values are there.
00:12:10
Evan
um So that last question, so here are some examples of what I think are are some different kinds of values. So there's like ethical values, ah right, wrong, justice, ah those sorts of notions, right?
00:12:24
Conor Fowler
Yeah, no, I appreciate this very much.
00:12:26
Evan
Yeah, there are like the lethic values, right, having to do with like truth and knowledge or justification.
00:12:26
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:12:31
Evan
um and then there are like aesthetic values, right? ah Beauty, creativity, originality, style, these sorts of things. um
00:12:43
Evan
So I guess I introduced this because um kind of think of our life as having like various projects in it. ah So we have like our ethical projects.
00:12:54
Evan
right These are the things, like the ethical issues and concerns and commitments that we find compelling, great um and the ethical principles that we accept or reject and use to like guide our our thought and life and action.
00:13:09
Evan
And we also have aesthetic projects. um Things like the aesthetic issues or media or experiences and ongoing commitments to things like creativity or originality or style that we find like compelling and engaging and that speak to us and that we use to like speak about ourselves to other people.
00:13:17
matt
Thank you.
00:13:32
Evan
um And I think, so, okay, we have these sort of projects, great. You can think about in your own case, what those projects look like for you, write your ethical projects, aesthetic projects.
00:13:41
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:13:41
Evan
um And I think when we engage in these projects, we're engaging with you know valuable things. right We're engaging with those ethical values or those aesthetic values. Or you know if you have other sorts of projects, right those alethic values like truth or knowledge.
00:13:55
Evan
um And in doing this, ah we express ourselves, but I also think that we like engage in this ongoing sort of like process of creating ourselves. um Now, given the nature of these values, I think that they are related in various ways.
00:14:12
Evan
right um And I think that as a result, the projects are or connected in various ways.
00:14:13
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:14:18
Evan
So a quick example, but many of us care about like the ethics of the art that we consume or like the ethics of the artist who's creating the art that we consume. but So this might be a place where your ethical your ethical projects and your aesthetic projects sort of interlink.
00:14:34
Evan
um Or we might care about like the political stances of the music ah that we engage with, or maybe something like the ethics of the food that we consume.
00:14:42
Conor Fowler
sure
00:14:44
Evan
So when i reflect on my own projects, um maybe I just have this like need to systematize. But it's important to me that the the values sort of like align and be internally coherent, right that they not be out of whack or out of sync with one another.
00:14:59
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:15:03
Evan
um So thinking about like being vegan, um I think if you ah seriously like commit to taking you know seriously commit to veganism or you're familiar with the arguments, um it makes you aware of a lot of unquestioned assumptions.
00:15:24
Evan
um at least in wider society. right Obviously, vegans and other people are are questioning some of these assumptions. So things I have in mind here, um there are like assumptions about the nature of human and non-human animals, um about the nature of food, about workers and workers' rights, about about the value of life.
00:15:40
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Right.
00:15:43
Evan
um And then there are some like really explicit connections that we can make with aesthetic values. right So um when we think about veganism, there are these sort of ethical issues about consumption.
00:15:54
Evan
um about the environmental and ethical costs of our choices, and about the things that we think are like appropriate objects of gustatory experience. right Things that it's like appropriate to eat and that we take aesthetic pleasure in eating.
00:16:08
Conor Fowler
right minutes
00:16:11
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:16:12
Evan
um And I think when you start thinking about these things, you you realize like how ingrained in society and the food we eat and in the products and attitudes, or sorry, in the products that we have and the attitudes that we have toward other humans and non-human animals, um that once you're aware of these sorts of things, you can't help um but see sort of the inseparability of i you know sort of your ethical projects and your aesthetic projects.
00:16:40
Evan
right So here's a really straightforward example. right We all have to eat. right um And you know given how often we eat, eating is an important source of like aesthetic experience.
00:16:56
Evan
um So as someone who doesn't you know eat animals, right um my sort of like aesthetic projects when it comes to like creating food and I love cooking, I just don't share it on Instagram because, you know, food photography all makes it look like shit.
00:17:11
Conor Fowler
Well,
00:17:11
Evan
well I love cooking and I cook all the time. um But my my sort of aesthetic project when it comes to food is constrained in various ways, right? So for example, there's no chicken.
00:17:22
Evan
right um But I think that i these sorts of constraints, um once you sort of like put them all together right into this like inseparable amalgam, right can make your sort of ethical projects and your aesthetic projects much deeper and interesting.
00:17:40
Evan
and Yeah. So anyway, I guess the the short answer of all that is, like look, if you just sort of think about these values, it seems really weird for me to be for them to be like insulated from one another right because of
00:17:54
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
Journey to Veganism and Philosophy's Influence
00:17:55
Evan
the way that these sort of values interact with one another.
00:17:58
Evan
um So I guess they've always been inseparable insofar as I've cared about these things or had these sorts of projects. um But I guess what i what I've been trying to do is give you like some reasons why that is.
00:18:11
matt
Yeah, honestly, you just described... the reason that I am vegan to a T and I'd never even like put together. Actually, you described a lot of my my entire life, like being being into clothes and being vegan and like you know sustainability, selling vintage.
00:18:23
Evan
Oh, cool. Yeah.
00:18:26
Evan
Yeah.
00:18:29
matt
like i've
00:18:29
Evan
Great.
00:18:30
matt
I don't remember the last time I bought something new clothing-wise. And wow, yeah.
00:18:35
Evan
Yeah.
00:18:36
matt
that I'd never never really thought about it in that way. But like philosophically, it is it is spot the fuck on.
00:18:43
Evan
Yeah, that's awesome. i'm glad and I'm glad that it speaks to you.
00:18:46
matt
Yeah, yeah, totally. how How long have you been vegan?
00:18:48
Conor Fowler
I knew when Matt wasn't talking, I was like, ah, the ideas is percolate.
00:18:53
Evan
i Yeah. ah How long?
00:18:57
matt
Yeah.
00:18:57
Evan
um So it it it has been sort of like a process. So I first started um dabbling, I guess, in veganism, like becoming vegan, I guess, ah when I was in college.
00:19:10
Evan
So this would have been like 2008. And eight I did that for a couple of years.
00:19:12
matt
Okay.
00:19:13
Evan
And then I like backslid into vegetarianism. And then I backslid even more. And then, you know, think about eight or nine years at this point.
00:19:18
Conor Fowler
you were pretty much, you
00:19:19
matt
Yeah.
00:19:22
matt
Okay, yeah.
00:19:22
Evan
I think the end, yeah.
00:19:23
matt
About the... Yeah, I'm at like eight and a half, I think.
00:19:26
Evan
Yeah.
00:19:26
matt
And it just, like, I was vegetarian for a long time, then I wasn't, and...
00:19:30
Evan
Yeah.
00:19:32
matt
I don't know, then meat started really grossing me out, which is also also funny because my partner at the time was vegan, and then she started eating meat right when I became vegan.
00:19:34
Evan
Yeah.
00:19:42
matt
And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah's yeah, it's nothing that I care about.
00:19:42
Evan
I don't know. Yeah.
00:19:46
Evan
Yeah.
00:19:48
matt
But I was just like like, it just happened one day. like I'd started...
00:19:51
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:19:53
matt
kind of becoming grossed out with meat and like the texture. I mean, I like the texture of like some fake meats.
00:19:57
Evan
Right.
00:19:58
matt
I try not to eat processed bullshit fake meat a lot, but like, you know, there's still something about that or like a a very well cooked tofu can kind of, you know, mimic that.
00:20:01
Evan
Right. Right.
00:20:08
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:20:08
matt
But like a friend and I went thrifting. He was vegan. He had been for a while and we were just talking and we went to, uh, this vegetarian spot that is sadly closed in Athens, Georgia, and um just started and ate a vegan meal and just haven't eaten meat since.
00:20:27
Evan
Yeah, no, I mean, given, um like, there there there's like a sort of explanation here, maybe for like, why it sticks sometimes and why it doesn't, right? Like, I was talking about these sort of projects and these sort of values that you find like compelling or that speak to you, right? And maybe I think the first time that I, you know, went vegan or vegetarian or whatever, i had this sort of like feeling that it was the right thing to do, but I hadn't like really...
00:20:53
Evan
thought hard enough about the values and like why they were important to me.
00:20:57
matt
Right.
00:20:57
Evan
right Whereas the second time, right you know something has clicked and now you know the values really speak to me. um
00:21:03
matt
he
00:21:04
Conor Fowler
Can I ask, like, because what I was trying to say before, you're kind of peerless, I guess, as a vegan in, what year did you say, 2008, Ohio?
00:21:05
Evan
yeah ah Yeah.
00:21:18
Evan
Yeah. Pennsylvania at that time.
00:21:19
Conor Fowler
Like, how many, well, even even still, like, how many people, did you have a lot of vegan friends back then?
00:21:21
Evan
Yeah.
00:21:25
Conor Fowler
Were you going at it alone?
00:21:25
Evan
No, right.
00:21:27
Conor Fowler
Did people make fun of you all the time?
00:21:29
Evan
ah No. um So ah I was at a small liberal arts college, so you know vegans are a dime a dozen there.
00:21:37
Evan
oh yeah ah So you know there were like options in the food halls.
00:21:37
Conor Fowler
ice I see, I see, I see, I see.
00:21:40
matt
but
00:21:42
Evan
They were terrible, but you know there were options.
00:21:44
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:21:44
Evan
um I don't think I've ever really been made fun of, at least to my face, ah about being vegan.
00:21:51
Conor Fowler
Really? That's so funny. Like the vegans I know, dude, have been like Billy, who Matt knows. People still to this day, Billy is 35 people make fun of Billy for being a vegan.
00:22:01
Conor Fowler
and It's fucking crazy.
00:22:02
Evan
Really?
00:22:02
matt
it's It's fucking 2025.
00:22:04
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:22:05
matt
Who the hell...
00:22:05
Evan
Yeah, I don't even know, like, what what is the, you know, what's the, like, but but you know, what's the joke, right?
00:22:10
Conor Fowler
tofu eater you suck whatever eat see eat so many vegetables
00:22:14
Evan
Yeah, like Soy Boy or something. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
00:22:18
Conor Fowler
it'd be hard it's hard it's a hard uh case to make i guess but people are still people are still super weirded out by it my brother's a vegan my brother catches shit from my family all the time like why can't you just why can't you just eat the fucking meat it's like what's the problem
00:22:26
Evan
Right.
00:22:29
matt
That's so weird.
00:22:34
matt
Right, like I might get you know a little joke from a close friend here and there, but like no one has ever made fun of me for not eating animal products.
00:22:41
Evan
Right. Yeah. I mean, I guess the other sort of, you know, I come from this, like, I'm i'm very lucky at the moment that I'm in this sort of like rarefied atmosphere of like philosophers and tons of philosophers are vegan.
00:22:56
Evan
Right.
00:22:57
matt
yeah
00:22:58
Evan
So it's, it you know, I don't find myself.
00:22:58
Conor Fowler
and why And it's like, and why do you think that is?
00:23:00
Evan
in yeah Yeah. I don't find myself having to go, you know, with my friends to the the local barbecue spot or something and being the odd one out.
00:23:07
matt
Right, right.
00:23:11
Evan
So, yeah.
00:23:13
matt
Yeah, if man if we had like a southern barbecue vegan spot in Atlanta, I would be there all the fucking time.
00:23:21
Evan
I'm surprised there isn't. Yeah.
00:23:22
matt
Yeah, me too. there There is a really good, or yes, there there are a lot of really, really good restaurants here that have like amazing vegan options.
00:23:31
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:23:34
Evan
yeah
00:23:34
matt
I have to shout out Harmony, ah Chinese in Chambly, which has been in business for like 40 years or something, but like still still one of the best vegan Chinese spots I've ever had in my life.
00:23:46
Evan
Okay, yeah.
00:23:47
matt
But yeah, that...
00:23:47
Evan
I made a note of it if I find myself in Atlanta area.
00:23:50
matt
Oh, yeah, dude.
00:23:50
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:23:51
matt
there's There's kind of always been that here. We also have Soul Vegetarian, which is all vegan, and it's like...
00:23:57
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:23:58
matt
I think there used to be one, maybe in like DC or something, but um it's black owned and there, I can't remember what, there's there's some sort of religion ah behind it, like kind of in you know the way that like Krishna is a big you know proponent of vegan and vegetarianism and had restaurants over the years, but like you know there Atlanta's kind of always had that.
00:24:19
Evan
Right.
00:24:24
Evan
Right.
00:24:25
matt
that scene locked down. So yeah, if you ever find yourself down here, holler at me and I'll give you some good recs and we can grab a meal.
00:24:28
Evan
Yeah, that'd awesome. Cool. Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to that.
00:24:36
matt
um
00:24:36
Conor Fowler
No, dude, people used to make fun of Billy because Billy would always say, like, let's have a communal vegan meal.
00:24:42
matt
Right, right, which is...
00:24:43
Conor Fowler
And people would be like, you fucking dork.
00:24:46
Evan
yeah
00:24:47
Conor Fowler
And it's like yeah it's like, this is what they did to the hippies, right?
00:24:47
matt
I mean, honestly,
00:24:51
Conor Fowler
They just, like, fucked them up for being nice.
00:24:51
Evan
Yeah, right.
00:24:53
matt
But honestly, like how, you know and I don't want to like go off on a tangent too much about this, but like how is that any different from like having a big potluck that's a crawfish boil?
00:25:04
matt
Or like whatever, like the only difference is there's no
00:25:04
Evan
Right, right, yeah.
00:25:06
Conor Fowler
It's because it's different from my life.
00:25:09
matt
yeah there's no animal products, but but ah beyond that, it's not really that fucking weird.
00:25:11
Evan
okay
00:25:15
Conor Fowler
It's not like there's a there's like baby sacrifice or whatever.
00:25:15
Evan
Yeah, right, right.
00:25:19
Evan
Yeah.
00:25:19
matt
Right, right, yeah, yeah, which would which would kind of not be vegan, you know? like
00:25:23
Evan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, so i I was under the impression that Clothes Horse is just a name for like the thing that you put clothes on.
00:25:24
Conor Fowler
Exactly. Well, and I was going to say, how is a clothes horse vegan?
00:25:38
Conor Fowler
I do believe like a saddle horse, yes, but I'm just saying it's a horse.
00:25:40
Evan
Yeah. i I never put together that there was this like odd potentially odd juxtaposition.
00:25:43
Conor Fowler
It's a horse, of course.
00:25:47
Evan
um
00:25:48
Conor Fowler
Well, that's what this show is about.
00:25:50
Evan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:50
Conor Fowler
And I'll juxtaposition
00:25:53
Evan
But yeah, I don't know. um That's all I have to say about that, I guess.
00:26:00
Conor Fowler
That's succinct enough.
00:26:00
Evan
Right.
00:26:01
Conor Fowler
The next question, ah and this is obvious, you've got a background in philosophy, dot, dot, dot.
00:26:03
Evan
um
00:26:07
Evan
right
00:26:08
Conor Fowler
and How does that shape the way you ah think about getting dressed, consumption, or even beauty itself? Who wrote this shit?
00:26:16
Evan
Yeah, ah the the beauty part is really hard.
00:26:16
Conor Fowler
this shit?
00:26:18
Evan
um i don't think I spend much time thinking about beauty, um but I can say a few things. ah
00:26:26
Conor Fowler
Steve Bautista, Beauty broad there's that a beautiful is that a beautiful jacket it's a it's a beautiful jacket.
00:26:27
Evan
Yeah, yeah leaving yeah okay. Yeah, I think, I guess, um
00:26:36
Evan
yeah, there what am I trying to say? ah you know When you think about philosophy, when you think about like truth and beauty, all these things have like capital letters.
00:26:48
Conor Fowler
Bautista, Mm
00:26:48
Evan
um I don't spend too much time thinking about beauty with a a capital B. um But yeah, I can talk about like getting dressed and maybe just like aesthetic value.
00:26:57
Conor Fowler
Please. Yeah, please.
00:27:00
Evan
um So one sort of issue that I'm like increasingly interested in is like creativity.
00:27:05
matt
Thank you.
00:27:10
Evan
um What is creativity and why is it valuable? um I think we all can agree that it's valuable. right um Here's like the really quick argument. We could just imagine a life where you don't have any opportunity to like be creative.
00:27:24
Conor Fowler
Well, that's what they want.
00:27:26
Evan
Well, right. that's it yeah it turns out we might be getting close to that.
00:27:29
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:27:29
Evan
But it seems terrible. right No one would want to live like that.
00:27:31
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:27:32
Evan
Or I hope no one would want to live like that.
00:27:33
Conor Fowler
Well, it's like that's a North Korean existence.
00:27:34
Evan
Although, yeah, right. great um Although, what? Their Juche symbol does have a paintbrush. But anyway, not to not sorry not to be like the North Korean apologist on the podcast at the moment.
00:27:45
Conor Fowler
Right. yeah
00:27:50
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:27:50
Evan
that' don't Don't take this the wrong way, whoever's listening.
00:27:53
Conor Fowler
It's not what it looks like.
00:27:54
Evan
um I am not not a wrong thinker. um but ah So anyway, um when I think about like getting dressed, right um the way that I see it is just like an opportunity to be creative.
00:28:08
Evan
um to like exercise this capacity. um And now it's going to sound like maybe be kind of ridiculous, but I think there's some truth to it. Like it's an opportunity to like stand up against a world that's becoming like increasingly flat and conformist.
00:28:23
Evan
um
00:28:24
Conor Fowler
Nail on the head.
00:28:24
Evan
So, oh, sorry.
00:28:26
Conor Fowler
I said, nail on the head.
00:28:28
Evan
Yeah, right. um So like thinking about creativity and like the fact that it is important, like one thing that I think is really disheartening is to see like people sort of outsourcing their opportunities to be creative.
00:28:41
Evan
um So you know in the beginning,
00:28:44
matt
AI has entered the chat.
00:28:45
Evan
Right, yeah, right. So in the in the context of teaching, right the obvious example is like chat GPT.
00:28:49
matt
ah
00:28:51
Evan
And maybe there are responsible ways to use this. and That's what my university tells me. And that's what we're supposed to like maybe try to teach students.
00:28:58
matt
Yeah.
00:29:00
Evan
OK, maybe there are things that aren't cheating, but it still seems like a huge waste. Right? um When you're in school, right, this is maybe one of the last times that you're going have the like opportunity to figure out what you think for yourself and then have someone actually read it, right, or listen to it.
00:29:19
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:29:19
Evan
um So it's just like mind-boggling to me that students would be willing to like not take this opportunity to do that and just outsource everything.
00:29:27
Conor Fowler
Do you find lot? Is that like, because I'm sure that's lot. There's a lot of that happening, right?
00:29:34
Evan
Yeah, there's supposed to be ways to try to like avoid it, like making students do work in class. um That has its own drawbacks, but that's kind of increasingly what I've been trying to do, rather than having them like go home and quote unquote write an essay.
00:29:50
Evan
um
00:29:52
Conor Fowler
Right. Right.
00:29:52
Evan
yeah um Another sort of like way that people outsource creativity, like I feel like I'm probably preaching to the choir here, is like trends. right um you know I was out walking around this morning, and you know every other guy I saw was wearing one of those like vest things.
00:30:09
matt
Oh God, yeah.
00:30:10
Evan
is just like the the uniform, right? um And you can't tell me that people are wearing this because they like it, right? Or if they do like it, it's because it's like trendy, right? I think this is just so weird that like,
00:30:19
matt
Right. Yeah.
00:30:20
Conor Fowler
right
00:30:22
Evan
grown adults who maybe otherwise do proclaim that they like value their freedom and like their individuality are willing to just sort of ah do whatever the crowd is telling them to do.
00:30:36
Evan
I find that just so odd.
00:30:36
matt
yeah
00:30:38
Evan
So anyway, we have so few opportunities to be creative. um I think our lives are going to be richer. right My own life is richer if you take the opportunity to like exercise your creative capacities. And I kind of think it's like a use it or lose it type thing.
00:30:51
Evan
Right? Yeah. So anyway, that's how I think about getting dressed and like why I take like pleasure in it and you know part of what I'm trying to do when I'm getting dressed.
00:30:56
matt
Thank you.
00:31:01
Evan
um When it comes to like aesthetic experiences more broadly, I'm thinking about things like reading a book or a short story or watching a movie or listening to music or just like going for a walk and seeing what people are wearing, you know all these sorts of things.
00:31:16
Evan
I think um philosophy has helped me develop analytical skills right to engage with the world around them more deeply.
00:31:17
matt
<unk>aries should
00:31:26
Evan
right um You can really think philosophically about anything, I think. um And having this sort background allows to talk with people about, don't like background allows me to like talk with people about and now um
00:31:43
Evan
themes in film, or I really enjoy like tiki. So like the ethics of enjoying tiki, like, or what's going on with tiki is a cultural appropriation, these sorts of things.
00:31:52
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:31:53
Evan
um The metaphysics of cocktails, right? Or like things like the connection, if there is any between ethics and style, or the aesthetics of fascism, right? I was interested in that for a while.
00:32:06
Evan
um Or there was like the thing making...
00:32:06
Conor Fowler
Do you have any, do you have any, uh, I don't know, Cliff's notes on that? I feel like that's, that's in the crosshairs of this show. Certainly.
00:32:15
Evan
Yeah, I mean, the thing everyone should you know check out if you are interested in this is the Susan Sontag. um God, what is the name of the the piece?
00:32:28
Evan
It's escaping me at the moment, but it's a ah review of like Lenny Riefenstahl's work. um
00:32:34
Conor Fowler
I see.
00:32:35
Evan
Oh, Fascinating Fascism, right, is the name of the piece.
00:32:38
Conor Fowler
There it is
00:32:39
Evan
It's great. I can send it to you you folks if you want to read it.
00:32:41
Conor Fowler
Oh, please, yeah.
00:32:41
Evan
um But yeah, ah there's that. There's a new documentary out on Riefenstahl. I haven't seen it yet because I had to teach during, you know, when it was like being brought or, you know, being played at the... ah the movie theater, but I'm looking forward to that too.
00:32:56
Evan
um But yeah, there's there's ah people writing on this. Worth checking out. But yeah, i' I don't have like a ah quick sort of version of it, at least prepared.
00:33:07
matt
Well, I mean, you know, if we think about it in like modern terms, ah modern being the past, i don't know, decade of American politics in particular, like, you know, a lot of, and especially this year with everything going on, like one of the biggest like complaints from the liberals and who are the quote unquote opposition party is that like,
00:33:07
Conor Fowler
No, no.
00:33:15
Evan
Yeah.
00:33:22
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:33:30
Evan
Right.
00:33:34
matt
you you know, the the inhumane shit that is being done is not attractive the way that it was under Obama or or Biden or whatever.
00:33:38
Evan
Right. right Yeah, where you just didn't see it.
00:33:44
matt
Yeah, like, like their their whole complaint is that, like, it's stupid and ugly.
00:33:45
Evan
Right. Yeah.
00:33:49
matt
And it's like, no, that's not the fucking point. The fucking point is that it's fascist.
00:33:52
Evan
Right. Yeah, it's wrong.
00:33:54
matt
It's like, yeah, like, it is not something any human should be doing to any other human being.
00:33:55
Evan
Right, yeah.
00:34:00
matt
Like, it doesn't matter how it's fucking dressed.
00:34:03
Evan
Yeah, right. So yeah, i I think fascism delights in the the sort of spectacle of the inhumanity.
00:34:12
matt
Agree.
00:34:12
Evan
ah
00:34:13
matt
Agree.
00:34:14
Evan
So, okay, is the opposition party fascist? I don't want to touch that question.
00:34:19
matt
Yeah, that's fine.
00:34:20
Evan
Yes, right.
00:34:20
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:20
matt
That's right.
00:34:21
Evan
At least they're not as openly fascist.
00:34:24
matt
Right. Right.
00:34:25
Evan
But yeah, I hasten to add that all opinions expressed here are my own and not that of any of my employers.
00:34:26
matt
Yeah.
00:34:34
Conor Fowler
No, we don't, um, yeah, we don't certainly don't pretend that we know anything here. So
00:34:42
Evan
ah Yeah, all that we know is that we know nothing.
00:34:44
matt
Yeah, admit
00:34:44
Evan
This is our philosophy reference.
00:34:46
matt
maybe maybe, what's the, ah ah I don't wanna linger on this too much longer, but you know the when when fascism comes to America, it'll be you know holding a Bible, yeah, i wrapped in a flag and holding a Bible.
00:34:47
Conor Fowler
yeah.
00:34:58
Evan
Oh yeah, wrapped in a flag and carrying a barbell. Yeah.
00:35:02
matt
It'll also be wearing dress sneakers.
00:35:02
Evan
yeah Yeah, right, right, right.
00:35:04
matt
So that that that is what's brought us to this current moment.
00:35:05
Conor Fowler
Right. We wearing a hybrid. Yeah, dude, for sure.
00:35:09
Evan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:10
Conor Fowler
Well, because I always malign the tactical boat shoe, you know, which is like
00:35:16
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:35:18
Conor Fowler
ah
00:35:20
Conor Fowler
just despicable. It's like, why does it have that new balance sort of?
00:35:25
Evan
Yeah, these neither fish nor fowl sort of footwear. Yeah.
00:35:29
Conor Fowler
Exactly.
Wardrobe Collection and Fashion Ethics
00:35:30
Conor Fowler
It's like make a choice, be in one game for another game.
00:35:31
Evan
Yeah.
00:35:32
Conor Fowler
Except for my
00:35:33
Evan
yeah ah
00:35:34
Conor Fowler
being mocks, which I love very much, which are really in, they're kind of in every camp.
00:35:42
Evan
Yeah. ah Yeah, you'll have to you have to reflect on what that tells you about yourself.
00:35:48
Conor Fowler
I know what it tells me about myself. I'm aware and I love it. I've got to say, I mean, cause I can go wherever I want in those things.
00:35:58
Evan
Yeah, right. Okay, okay.
00:35:59
Conor Fowler
Wherever I'm still, wherever I'm still welcome.
00:36:00
Evan
I guess we're loafers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. No, I guess what?
00:36:07
Conor Fowler
I do a... Mm-hmm.
00:36:08
Evan
there There are other sort of like... There was that thing making the rounds about like MagaFace earlier in the year.
00:36:15
Conor Fowler
will
00:36:15
Evan
If you were sort of familiar with this, the sort of like... ah Very particularly like Botoxed, bleached, flowing locks of hair, sort of like look for women.
00:36:26
Evan
And then the sort of like super quote unquote masculine view, or like ah Pete Higseth or whatever the fuck his name is. sort of thing.
00:36:36
Evan
um And you know I think the sort of connection there with fascist ideology is pretty clear, right? The role of women, ah sort of like glorification of strength, respectively.
00:36:50
Evan
Yeah.
00:36:51
matt
Right, which is really funny.
00:36:52
Conor Fowler
All the good checkboxes that were like.
00:36:54
Evan
Yeah, right, right.
00:36:56
matt
Which is, it's also particularly funny to me because, like, all these dudes are wearing the world's tightest suits with the world's worst shoes.
00:37:03
Evan
Right.
00:37:04
matt
And i know Derek Guy has talked about this, you know, at length or whatever, but, like, those are the same people that were making fun of anyone that was, like, into clothing back in the day.
00:37:05
Evan
Right.
00:37:15
Evan
Right, right.
00:37:16
matt
So it's like, yeah.
00:37:16
Evan
yeah no they're Yeah, they're like 10, 15, 20 years behind at this point.
00:37:20
matt
Right, right, yeah.
00:37:20
Conor Fowler
that's the real that's the real like i don't know irony of it all is the whatever um so i guess this is a perfect segue like if your wardrobe were an argument what would it be arguing for see is that an annoying question i don't know if that's an annoying question because i feel like you have a good answer for it yeah well i'm a cute guy
00:37:21
Evan
Yeah.
00:37:25
Evan
Yeah.
00:37:35
Evan
Yeah.
00:37:39
Evan
it's Well, it's ah it's a cute question. um
00:37:42
matt
Ha ha ha ha.
00:37:43
Evan
Take that how you will. um So I did think about this. So thank you for sending me the questions beforehand. I did think about this question, um but i and I didn't come up with much.
00:37:51
Conor Fowler
God, yeah.
00:37:56
Evan
Or at least what I came up with, okay, it's not like an argument.
00:37:57
Conor Fowler
but
00:38:00
Evan
um I guess the way that I like tried to approach the question is like, what sort of things might I'd be trying to communicate with my my wardrobe.
00:38:09
Conor Fowler
Yeah. it With your creative act of dressing.
00:38:11
Evan
right
00:38:14
Evan
Yeah. um Yeah. So um just sort of thinking about like what's in my wardrobe, which is there's a lot of it. um So you know I occasionally find things I forgot I had.
00:38:25
Conor Fowler
cause how many jackets do you have? Do you know?
00:38:27
Evan
I don't know. i'm i didn't count. and Sorry, excuse me. um I recently figured out how to store my ties with those little plastic ah things that you you buy ties on at the at the store or whatever.
00:38:41
Conor Fowler
Uh-huh.
00:38:43
Evan
so I got a pack of 200 of those, thinking for sure that would be enough. um But it it wasn't.
00:38:48
Conor Fowler
So you have in excess of 200 ties.
00:38:50
Evan
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:51
Conor Fowler
And then, so you must have a double digit number at least of jackets, right?
00:38:56
Evan
Yeah, I know that it's at least, well, yeah, of course it's at least double digit.
00:39:01
Conor Fowler
That's what the fuck I'm talking about.
00:39:02
Evan
yeah
00:39:02
Conor Fowler
So that's impressive shit.
00:39:04
Evan
triple Triple digit. It's probably triple digit, honestly. um
00:39:09
Conor Fowler
you really think you have triple digits of jackets?
00:39:11
Evan
I am certain that I do because a few years ago I counted and I had in the 90s.
00:39:16
Conor Fowler
Wow, what the fuck? Dude, I thought you had like 30.
00:39:20
Evan
No, look at the look at the grid, right?
00:39:22
Evan
right
00:39:22
Conor Fowler
and um
00:39:23
Conor Fowler
see the grid. I looked at it this morning and I was like, wow, that's really a lot of stuff.
00:39:28
Evan
Yeah.
00:39:28
Conor Fowler
Because you were like, well, so what's his deal? I mean, why are you having him on the show? And it's like, well, you have to look at the grid. Like it's just this its isn't a stunning array of both jackets and ties in combination.
00:39:43
Evan
Yeah. um Yeah. So hopeful hopefully it's not just like because there's just so much of it that it's interesting.
00:39:50
matt
Thank you.
00:39:50
Conor Fowler
No, no, it's artful.
00:39:50
Evan
But anyway.
00:39:52
Conor Fowler
It's artful.
00:39:52
Evan
Yeah. Yeah, we we anyway. ah So um what what is the you know what what's being communicated by all this? Or what could one like gather from it? um So I think one thing that sort of becomes apparent is um a lot of it is like really fun and colorful.
00:40:13
Evan
um And a lot of it is from the 70s. And it just seems so like the you were mentioning this jacket that I'm wearing today. It just seems that like men's clothing in particular was like much more fun, much more colorful, much more interesting than it is now.
00:40:28
matt
hundredter hundred percent
00:40:30
Evan
um So, you know, this goes back to that sort of like general flattening. um Now, this isn't to say that everyone was wearing like colorful, you know, rainbow madras every day or something.
00:40:43
Evan
ah But sort of think about like consumption habits in the 60s and 70s, right? People had considerably less, right? All you have to do is like look at a closet in a house from the 60s or 70s and there are these tiny little, you know, um yeah, like a broom closet, right? But they're in your your bedroom or whatever.
00:41:01
Evan
Okay, so we've got a lot less stuff.
00:41:02
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:41:05
Evan
um So what this sort of like communicates to me is that the people who were buying this, right they had generally less. um Many of these things seem to have been custom made, given the the tags inside with like the information.
00:41:18
Evan
but So people were buying these things because they really meant something to them. They wanted like this particular piece, right and they're limited like real estate the closet or like how expensive clothing was at the time compared to like the yeah how sort of cheap you can get clothing for today comparatively. like
00:41:34
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:41:34
Evan
Right. So I think that's really interesting. um i think it's something that I need to do a better job sort of thinking about when I'm like getting things right. Like, why is this piece like special to me or why does it speak to me?
00:41:51
Evan
ah Why does it deserve deserve the sort of like limited space in my closet? um I think, you know, um maybe people already do this.
00:41:56
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:42:00
Evan
I certainly don't, right? I kind of impulse by a lot of things because I think, oh my god, it's the only one. I'm never going to see it again. and if I don't get it, I'm going to regret it. um
00:42:10
Conor Fowler
But like, isn't that kind of true?
00:42:13
Evan
Yeah, actually.
00:42:13
Conor Fowler
How many, how many of those, how many of that jacket are still extant, you know?
00:42:14
Evan
a
00:42:18
Evan
Right, right.
00:42:20
matt
Right.
00:42:20
Evan
I occasionally see like you know doubles of something, um you know something I already have, and I thought, like oh, this is the only only one I'm ever going to see, but is' it's very rare.
00:42:27
Conor Fowler
i feel like I've only, I accidentally bought two of the same Gantt shirt on eBay.
00:42:34
Evan
Really?
00:42:36
Conor Fowler
Yes.
00:42:36
Evan
Is it because you forgot who had the one?
00:42:37
Conor Fowler
Okay. I don't know what happened, man.
00:42:40
Evan
Okay.
00:42:40
Conor Fowler
i mean, it was just, uh, no, no. I bought them like in succession.
00:42:45
Evan
oh
00:42:46
Conor Fowler
and hello
00:42:47
matt
so
00:42:47
Conor Fowler
And so, I had them, I mean, I'm notorious for that thing among many other things.
00:42:48
Evan
ah
00:42:54
matt
Thank you.
00:42:54
Conor Fowler
Um, but aside from that, like, no, I haven't seen very much. Uh, and I, and I'm not, I don't think as much in the shit as you guys are for sure. But like, um, It's so insane that there used to be all these little men's stores.
00:43:09
Conor Fowler
And we talk about all of fucking time, like that, that had their own logos. I mean, talk about creativity, like talk about an opportunity for creativity, even that just doesn't exist at all anymore.
00:43:16
Evan
Right, right.
00:43:19
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:43:22
Conor Fowler
Period.
00:43:23
matt
Well, and and part of that too, um you know aside from you know wages not keeping up with the you know cost of living and inflation and all that, but like you know pretty much anything –
00:43:23
Evan
Right.
00:43:31
Evan
Right.
00:43:38
matt
mid 70s and prior was like made in the states for the most part it was union uh labor making it and it you know it was it was kind of affordable for like the average joe and the working class like that's you know if if you want something now that's nice and you know made ethically and whatever like it costs through the nose but part part of that is because you know
00:43:42
Evan
Right.
00:43:47
Evan
right
00:43:56
Evan
Right. That's a good point. Yeah.
00:44:04
Evan
Right.
00:44:04
Conor Fowler
It's insane.
00:44:05
Evan
Right.
00:44:06
Conor Fowler
It's fucking insane.
00:44:08
matt
labor costs are so high for anywhere that's like, you know, not a sweatshop for the most part and you know, it's not even Yeah, yeah
00:44:14
Evan
Right.
00:44:15
Conor Fowler
Derek just did a thing about the cost of a shirt. The cost of a domestically produced shirt is like $220. There's really no way around it.
00:44:24
matt
Yeah, and like, you know, if you think about it and I've thought about this a lot over my years in the clothing industry like if if your average person that was, you know bartending or like, do you know, working construction or whatever like you know If they were paid what they should be paid at this point, if everyone was, $2.25 or whatever it costs to make a shirt or buy a shirt retail in the U.S.
00:44:49
matt
would not be that weird.
00:44:51
Evan
Right. Yeah, that's a good point.
00:44:52
matt
you know It's kind of like...
00:44:53
Conor Fowler
Well, because they they don't have to keep up with one another necessarily.
00:44:57
matt
Right, right. and like you know a lot of this is by design because the JCPenney's, the Sears, the Walmarts...
00:45:05
Conor Fowler
Montgomery wards.
00:45:07
matt
Like, the Walmartification and and and now Amazonification of society has, like, has necessitated this because nobody can afford fucking shit that, like, actually, you know, is good and lasts.
00:45:16
Evan
Right.
00:45:18
matt
And i'm I'm not even just talking about American-made, but, like, you know, higher-end, like, Chinese stuff. Like, you know, Japanese.
00:45:25
Conor Fowler
Do you know the tyranny of the boot?
00:45:25
Evan
Right.
00:45:28
Evan
What is it?
00:45:29
Conor Fowler
The tyranny of the boot, I think, or the tragedy of the boot?
00:45:30
Evan
Oh, yeah, the what, Terry Pratchett. Sorry, is this what we're thinking of?
00:45:36
Conor Fowler
No, it's like, it's a socialist tract that is like the boot, and you use the boot as an example, right?
00:45:39
matt
Oh, the... the the
00:45:44
Evan
Oh, no, I'm going to have to...
00:45:49
Conor Fowler
So if you're a poor worker, you can only ever afford the shitty boot.
00:45:53
Evan
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
00:45:54
matt
Right.
00:45:54
Conor Fowler
You know, if you're a rich person, you buy the nice boot, you resole it, whatever.
00:45:54
matt
Yeah.
00:45:58
Evan
Right.
00:46:00
matt
Yeah, I mean, that that is kind of like what, um you know, American society and has become at this point, like.
00:46:00
Conor Fowler
Yes.
00:46:01
Evan
Yeah.
00:46:07
Evan
Yeah, right. And you know after the point is made, what? After a year or whatever, your cheap boots fall apart and you have to buy another one. And then in the long run, the suggestion is you're going to spend more on boots than you know the the nicely made one.
00:46:16
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:46:20
Evan
But upfront cost is prohibitive.
00:46:22
matt
but Right, right. And and there you know there are definitely certain points of the quote-unquote buy less, buy better thing that are like completely absurd for most people.
00:46:31
Evan
Right.
00:46:32
matt
you know like it It is not at this point like you know that philosophy is great in a lot of ways, but like buying secondhand is also a part of it.
00:46:38
Evan
Yeah.
00:46:40
matt
And
00:46:41
Evan
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:42
matt
You know, like...
00:46:42
Evan
No, I, yeah, the second hand stuff.
00:46:43
Conor Fowler
Just not buying from Sheen.
00:46:45
Evan
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:46
matt
yeah. yeah or Yeah, Jesus Christ. Sheen, any piece of clothing that I touch, like, in a thrift store that feels, you know, like, bit like viscerally terrible is 99%
00:46:57
Conor Fowler
Radioactive.
00:47:00
Evan
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:03
matt
Sheen. And it, like, makes me dry.
00:47:04
Evan
Yeah.
00:47:05
matt
Like, I've literally dry-heed touching Mm-hmm.
00:47:07
Evan
Yeah. Well, it's, I mean, one thing to sort of, like, think about, I guess, is, like, it's crazy how quickly it got there, right?
00:47:13
matt
Yeah, 100%.
00:47:14
Evan
Like, and when it gets there, probably only has one or two more wares left in it.
00:47:17
Conor Fowler
That's fast fashion.
00:47:19
Evan
Yeah.
00:47:19
matt
Right, right. Oh, i so I saw a Taylor Swift Arras tour shirt the other day in a thrift, and I was like, oh, wow, yeah, she's she's the biggest you know biggest musical artist on the planet, but it's already made it to a thrift.
00:47:23
Evan
Right, right.
00:47:30
Evan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:35
Evan
Yeah.
00:47:35
Conor Fowler
Just astonishing.
00:47:35
Evan
No, but I mean, yeah, if you if you are serious about wanting high quality things and you don't want to spend a lot of money, just go go to a thrift store, right? Or get on eBay or hell, go to a vintage store, right?
00:47:47
matt
Right, right.
00:47:47
Evan
um
00:47:48
matt
Yeah.
00:47:49
Evan
Yeah, there's just so much good stuff out there. Sure, it's consumption, but it's like not the same thing as buying like a brand new thing. um
00:47:59
matt
Right.
00:48:00
Evan
Yeah, the the money, you know depending on where you're shopping, is going to stay local and all these other sort of things that you might care about.
00:48:08
matt
Totally.
00:48:10
Evan
yeah Yeah, so support your local vintage dealer.
00:48:12
matt
Yes, please, please. we need We need all the help we can get at this point.
00:48:16
Conor Fowler
Oh.
00:48:16
Evan
Yeah.
00:48:17
matt
ah So Evan, like where does your style inspiration come from? like are there you know Is people? Is eras, textures? you know Where do you stand on that?
00:48:27
Evan
Yeah. um that's ah That's a really hard question. um
00:48:35
matt
Yeah, it could be as broad as you want to you know want to answer it to.
00:48:36
Evan
Yeah. um I mean, you mentioned the but sort of like fuck you jacket at the beginning. um i was going to put it in terms of like go to hell pants.
00:48:46
matt
Okay, yeah, yeah.
00:48:47
Evan
So the the idea, you know, these sort of you know things that ah men would wear on the weekend when they didn't have to wear a suit. And it was like some constrained way for them to express some sort of individuality.
00:49:00
Evan
Usually they're kind of like garishly colored or they're patchwork or embroidered or like all three at once. um So I think, so maybe I need to back up.
00:49:12
Evan
So um maybe I need to say something about like style or what I think of as style. So I think style is a lot broader than just like clothing. um So I've been, so there's this paper by a philosopher at University of San Diego, Nick Riggle, and he writes about style, right?
00:49:29
Conor Fowler
okay
00:49:31
Evan
And his idea is that personal style is something like expressing one's ideals. um And you do this in, you know or you can do this in all parts of your life, not only the way that you dress, but the way that you sort of act and conduct yourself, the sort of friendships that you have.
00:49:46
Evan
um So yeah, so this is the way I think about style. OK, and now I've introduced the idea of like Go to Hell Pants. And the way I think about like my own style, um the the clothing choices that I have, the aesthetic projects that I have, the ethical projects that I have, is something like, OK, what if you took the idea of like Go to Hell Pants and you just like applied it across the board?
00:50:08
matt
um That's great.
00:50:10
Conor Fowler
Good health outfit.
00:50:10
Evan
um So, you you know, I exuberant love for life, um andapologeically ah unapologetically liking the things that I like um and getting trying to get other people excited about the things that they like or like sharing the things that I like with other people.
Creative Expression Through Clothing
00:50:29
Evan
In a way that, you know in the same way that you can't look away from the the garish go to hell pants, right I'm hoping that people can't look away ah from like my style right as an expression of my ideals.
00:50:42
Evan
um So that's like the overarching idea. ah When it comes to clothing, um I guess, yeah, it's again the the go to hell pants thing. But you know if you look at the the Instagram or whatever, I'm really into like bright stuff, bright plaids, madras, tartan.
00:50:56
Conor Fowler
right
00:50:57
Evan
ah Things embroidered, you know ties embroidered with like unusual like bad taste motifs, patchwork pants and sports coats, short shorts with sports coats, loafers without socks.
00:51:02
matt
will
00:51:10
Evan
I wear tassel loafers without socks with black tie um in the summer.
00:51:15
matt
Hell yeah!
00:51:15
Conor Fowler
How long?
00:51:16
Evan
special
00:51:16
matt
Hell yeah!
00:51:17
Evan
The craziest sort of like ah fashion middle finger to anyone who knows you know anything about this.
00:51:23
matt
I was gonna say, when you mention not wearing a button-down with black tie, that you should fucking do that.
00:51:27
Evan
Yeah.
00:51:29
Conor Fowler
That's why, yeah, why I never wear socks.
00:51:29
Evan
yeah mean I really like the feeling of the ruffles, though.
00:51:33
matt
Yeah, I feel it.
00:51:33
Evan
um
00:51:33
matt
I feel it. I've never in my life worn black tie, but I love seeing seeing people like my buddy chris but buddy Chris Roy, who comes up on this fucking show all the time.
00:51:38
Evan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:43
Evan
Yeah.
00:51:44
matt
He bought ah a corduroy tuxedo from J.Crew a couple years ago.
00:51:49
Evan
Oh, wow. Yeah.
00:51:50
Conor Fowler
Oh, man.
00:51:50
Evan
Yeah.
00:51:51
matt
Yeah, and his ah his daughter is an actor, like, getting big.
00:51:55
Evan
Mm-hmm.
00:51:56
matt
She's, like, nine years old, but ah she was in a film that premiered at Sundance, and he was going to wear that with some Belgian lopers, a white button-down shirt, a black knit tie, and his wife vetoed it.
00:51:58
Evan
yeah
00:52:08
matt
I was like,
00:52:09
Evan
Yeah.
00:52:09
matt
so Yeah, totally, totally.
00:52:11
Evan
Well, why not? I feel like the the corduroy at Sundance would be like a lot of fun, right Because it does have this sort of like rugged westernness to it. i don't know about the Nittad.
00:52:20
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:52:21
matt
Yeah.
00:52:21
Conor Fowler
Did you see that Peter Zatolo corduroy suit that he was just wearing the other day we posted on the show's stories?
00:52:21
Evan
and know
00:52:29
Conor Fowler
Really, really i amazing.
00:52:31
Evan
Yeah. um So yeah, so there's all these like ah different you know bright things that I like. and I guess it's like some intersection across the year of like Trad and Ivy and Preppy and TPP.
00:52:44
matt
you
00:52:45
Evan
right? Maybe that's like all the things sort of coming together. um So a lot of these things, I think, in the ways that I combine them are at the edge of bad taste, right? Either right up against the line of bad taste or over the line.
00:52:56
Conor Fowler
Perhaps.
00:52:59
Evan
um And I love that, right? So what? ah John Waters has that sort of like quotation about bad taste, right?
00:53:09
matt
oh yeah
00:53:09
Evan
Like,
00:53:09
Conor Fowler
Yes.
00:53:09
Evan
there's There's bad, bad taste and there's good, bad taste and good, bad taste is something like knowing the rules and like intentionally breaking them. Like that that's the sort of like thing that I'm trying to go for.
00:53:17
matt
right
00:53:21
Evan
um Again, you know, it's this like go to hell idea where like I like the things that I like and I'm being my own person unapologetically and, you know, it's loud and maybe kind of obnoxious, but it's me.
00:53:21
Conor Fowler
We got to get John on the show.
00:53:34
Evan
I love it. Yeah.
00:53:34
matt
Right, right. And and just from you know this interview, i don't think that in life you were neither loud nor obnoxious. thats As a human being, like you like that's that's just your way of expressing those inner thoughts because you don't present yourself that
00:53:44
Evan
Well, okay, okay, okay.
00:53:49
Evan
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:51
matt
ah you don't present yourself that way
00:53:54
Evan
Yeah, yeah. um Yeah. ah So I guess what? there's There's like a big shift in my clothing style throughout the year. I don't really post in the summer because I'm just wearing shorts and shorts and
00:54:09
matt
Yeah, because it's 9,000 degrees outside.
00:54:11
Evan
Right. But even then, i'm i'm wearing a lot of, like, you know, 60s, 50s tiki rayon shirts and stuff.
00:54:19
Conor Fowler
That's good.
00:54:20
Evan
It just doesn't, you know, it doesn't make the the grid or whatever. um And then, yeah, someone, one of my friends said i remind them of, like, a retiree in Florida in the summer and then, like, college professor in the in the winter.
00:54:34
matt
Right.
00:54:34
Evan
Yeah,
00:54:35
matt
you
00:54:35
Conor Fowler
that's good
00:54:36
matt
The only difference is you're not wearing a ta of but yeah Tommy Bahama shirt.
00:54:39
Evan
yeah right, right, you're right, right.
00:54:40
matt
like You're wearing cool shit, even if it kind of looks like the the shit that is that these brands mimic.
00:54:43
Evan
Yeah.
00:54:46
Evan
Yeah. Yeah. um I think the ah the other, OK, so we're coming up. I plan outfits pretty far in advance. We're coming up into the holiday season. Every holiday season, I just absolutely love tartan. I'm sure it's just like some holdover from my childhood and you know having these like tartan ties or whatever that my my mother would dress me in.
00:55:10
Evan
um But yeah, so looking at like really old paintings of people wearing tartan, I think it's really interesting. In particular, what I think is really interesting about it is the way that they're wearing like multiple tartans at once.
00:55:24
Evan
right And they're like clashing.
00:55:25
Conor Fowler
Yes.
00:55:26
Evan
i just love that. So that that's something I do around the holidays. right i'm going to have like one tartan like trouser and a jacket and a tie and probably like a fair isle sweater on there. So it's just like pattern maximalism.
00:55:40
Evan
um And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. like I have you know some theories about like what makes it work and what doesn't. but
00:55:47
Conor Fowler
Let's hear it. Because I'm curious, because I have some theories as well, but I would like to hear your theories.
00:55:51
Evan
Yeah, I mean, like the the really easy thing is like they can't be the same size.
00:55:55
Conor Fowler
Yes.
00:55:56
Evan
right um And they can't even be too close to the same size, so they have to be pretty dramatically different when it comes to size. um I think you can wear tartan jacket and tartan tie.
00:56:06
Evan
I hate the matchy-matchy same jacket, tartan, same tie.
00:56:10
Conor Fowler
Yeah, the cummerbund and the, yeah.
00:56:12
Evan
um You can mix them, um and they can maybe be the same size, although I think it looks better when one's bigger and one's smaller. But you can get away with a lot more if you're wearing a a sweater with a tie under it, because you just get like the little knot and maybe some of the some of the tie there.
00:56:33
Evan
So it's not enough to like really clash, and it's like broken up with the sweater. um Yeah, so those are like some general thoughts. I'll have to think about it more when I start like laying out the 12 Days of Christmas bits or whatever. Yeah.
00:56:50
matt
So i feel like that transitions well into this, but you were almost peerless in your dedication to your FitPic. Like I was looking at your your grid a few days ago and I was like, literally every picture or like the first picture looks, you know, it's the same background, the same like pose, which I think is phenomenal.
00:57:10
Evan
Yeah,
00:57:14
matt
Like it's, you know, it's a really cool way to like, you know, kind of, I don't know, showcase just how dedicated you are, but like, do you have a philosophy about it?
00:57:22
Evan
yeah thanks.
00:57:25
matt
Did...
00:57:26
Evan
Yeah, right. um So for me, it's it's about balancing something like consistency but also creativity.
00:57:32
matt
Okay.
00:57:33
Evan
right so
00:57:34
matt
Seems to be a ah general theme in this show interview.
00:57:36
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:57:36
Evan
Yeah, right. So consistency, right? Like it's almost, as you point out, it's almost always the same location. um Not always, but almost always this sort of like brick wall with weeds growing up ah in my backyard.
00:57:51
Evan
um The post format is almost exactly the same. right It's like the sort of closer view and then the lapel of the jacket, if there's a jacket, and then the tie.
00:57:57
matt
Right. Right.
00:58:00
Evan
um And then like the last slide is going to be like the whole outfit. um The same sunglasses, right except there's a few photos where i don't have sunglasses. um So the consistency is important to me, i think, because it you know once you have like the full effect or whatever, the there's like the the emphasis should be on the clothing.
00:58:11
Conor Fowler
Where are the sunglasses?
00:58:17
matt
right
00:58:22
matt
right
00:58:22
Evan
right Or if there's like an interesting caption, which there isn't always, but if there's an interesting caption, the interesting caption rather than like the cool shit in the background. um So, okay, that's like some of the consistency.
00:58:35
Evan
It's also, i think, easier for me to like not have to try to find you know cool new backgrounds all the time or whatever.
00:58:41
matt
Right. I mean, the brick the brick wall is phenomenal.
00:58:42
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:58:45
Evan
Okay, yeah.
00:58:45
matt
it A brick wall never doesn't look good in the phone.
00:58:48
Evan
Yeah, I like how you sometimes they'll like line up perfectly, right? And it just looks like three of me standing next to one another.
00:58:52
matt
Right.
00:58:56
Evan
um But yeah. ah Yeah, and then creativity, right? So my goal, right, is not to repeat combinations.
00:59:05
matt
Right.
00:59:06
Evan
um but Given like the sheer number, i think it's really unlikely that any particular combination I land on, even if it looks good, is going to be like the best possible combination.
00:59:16
matt
Right.
00:59:16
Evan
Right? um So I'm always trying to like experiment with new combinations. Also, like I said, um like what i really enjoy about getting dressed is creativity.
00:59:28
Evan
right So if I'm like repeating outfits, I'm depriving myself of like this opportunity to be creative. right Perhaps one of the only like opportunities I'm going have that day.
00:59:38
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:59:38
Evan
great So yeah, I just want to start the day off ah doing something that I enjoy, something that i love, and you know that's getting dressed. And thank God, right, because I have to do it every day.
00:59:49
matt
Right, right. Yeah, so that's the the peril of being a human being is you have to get dressed every day. ah Wait, just out of curiosity, to do the sunglasses, like, is there a particular reason you're always wearing sunglasses?
01:00:04
Evan
there's There's a practical reason. um
01:00:06
matt
Other than the fact that it's sunny, you know.
01:00:08
Evan
Yeah, right. The practical reason is that it's sunny. That's about it.
01:00:11
matt
Okay, gotcha.
01:00:11
Evan
um Also, I did it for a while, and then I'm like, well, I can't stop doing it now. It's like the same reason it's the brick wall.
01:00:18
matt
Right, right.
01:00:18
Evan
I could have chosen a different brick wall, but you know that's the brick wall I chose, so that's the one I have to be going with.
01:00:23
matt
I respect it.
01:00:23
Conor Fowler
I don't like the kids to see my eyes the morning.
01:00:24
Evan
Yeah.
01:00:27
matt
Yeah, I make the world's worst like ah deer in headlights eyes in any photo that I've ever taken.
01:00:32
Evan
Right, right. Yeah.
01:00:33
matt
So I prefer like either a shadow on my you know above my glasses or sunglasses or something like that.
01:00:34
Evan
Yeah.
01:00:39
Evan
Yeah. i I think also I have this like school picture day smile in all these, like this very aggressive. And like my eyes will get really squinty, and it just looks, you know I think the sunglasses kind of get rid of that.
01:00:54
Evan
Also, it you know when I do take photos, I seem to always like blink sort of halfway through.
01:00:55
Conor Fowler
They make almost everyone look better.
01:00:59
matt
right
01:01:00
Evan
um So you know I don't have to worry about whether my eyes are open or or anything like that. So yeah.
01:01:04
matt
yeah totally totally yeah yeah i gotta say you've given us i i think maybe the the most number of quotes in this show that we've ever had like there's on on our on our google
01:01:06
Conor Fowler
Practical.
01:01:16
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:01:16
Evan
Did I talk the most?
01:01:18
Conor Fowler
Matt and I have been they batting, beating the shit out of the keyboard here,
01:01:18
Evan
but
01:01:23
matt
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:23
Evan
Oh, oh, you're okay, you're typing things.
01:01:25
matt
Yeah, just like like things that you say that like we put in quotation marks in our notes.
01:01:25
Evan
yeah
01:01:29
Evan
I see.
01:01:29
matt
You know, it's been, yeah, it's been it's been really...
01:01:31
Conor Fowler
Like for but um but these episode titles, just like for copy whatever.
01:01:32
Evan
Okay. Cool.
01:01:36
Evan
Yeah.
01:01:36
matt
yeah yeah, it's great.
01:01:36
Evan
Mm-hmm.
01:01:37
matt
It's great.
01:01:37
Conor Fowler
This has been awesome. So to round it out, ah I have a question that is a little bit about me, of course.
01:01:45
Evan
Okay. Yeah, no. Mm-hmm.
01:01:47
Conor Fowler
So I have a large collection of American political memorabilia with a special emphasis on criminals and scoundrels. I bought another JFK thing, like a bath mat. My girlfriend asked me, when does the collection end?
01:02:04
Conor Fowler
And I think you'll agree with me, it never ends. So what started it? I mean, what's the first thing that you bought? Then when you saw it, oh my God, I'm having a collection of this now. I guess it must been have been the second thing.
01:02:18
Evan
Yeah. um So think I think I was probably primed to do this from like a very early age.
01:02:24
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
01:02:25
Evan
but you know Possibly there's like some genetic component, I guess.
01:02:27
Conor Fowler
Did you go to private school?
01:02:29
Evan
I did, actually. um My parents sent me to a place called Calvary Baptist Christian Academy.
01:02:35
matt
Oh, wow.
01:02:35
Conor Fowler
Jesus Christ. ah You're one of them.
01:02:37
matt
All right.
01:02:39
Conor Fowler
I should have known. That's awesome, dude.
01:02:41
Evan
um This isn't what I was referring to, but it is I guess, part of the story. So ah my grandparents collected, I guess is the the polite term for it, a lot of things. um No particular thing ah that they collected, just a lot.
01:02:55
Evan
um And then my parents are like antiquers and resellers, they, you know furniture and, you knickknacks and, you know, the tools, this sort of stuff. So I grew up like going to auctions and seeing all this like cool old stuff.
01:03:10
Evan
um And at the time, I don't think I like realized how cool it was, but you know, i was constantly around it. um Then you know I got to to to private school and there were restrictions on what I could wear. couldn't wear jeans.
01:03:22
Evan
I had to wear a collared shirt. um So I got used to like dressing you know with a tucked in shirt and yeah trousers and all this. um And you know I started playing around with like making it my own. I'd wear ties or jackets or whatever, right whereas everyone else was was not doing this.
01:03:40
Evan
And I found that I really enjoyed it. um Around this time, I guess the the sort of thing that seemed big to me, although I don't know if it actually was, and I don't know exactly what was attractive to me about it, was sort of like J. Crew, Ralph Lauren, you know, this sort of stuff. I remember like actually looking at the J Press website at the time, which, believe it or not, was even worse than it is now.
01:04:02
matt
Oh, wow. that's That's fucking saying something.
01:04:05
Evan
No, it's gotten better. It's gotten better. um But yeah. ah uh and you know trying to like i remember looking at this stuff in like feeling that i sort of had an idea of what was going on and i would like try to do it on my own with like the the materials that i had um anyway i i don't know that it was like terribly successful but anyway i was trying um
01:04:29
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:04:30
Evan
So I think the other sort of thing that I'm, well, anyway, so, okay, ah there's all this, right? um Then, ah you know, I'd go to like thrift stores or whatever when I got to grad school and finally had like a real, you know, and don't want to say substantial, but, you know, a a regular paycheck, right? Rather than just like summer work or like working on campus or whatever.
01:04:52
Evan
um go to thrift stores, vintage shops, these sorts of things, and like collect some things. But you know there wasn't always you know there wasn't always something there. um And then my friend, Scott, another philosopher, introduced me to eBay when he was wearing a of Madras jacket. And I just told him how much I loved it. And it was so great because I you know i knew what it was. He's like, oh, yeah, well, there's all this stuff on eBay.
01:05:16
Evan
And then this was... God, sometime in grad school. I don't really remember when now. But it's it's just been like a terrible addiction ever since, I guess. um
01:05:27
matt
There are a worse addictions.
01:05:28
Conor Fowler
that yeah.
01:05:28
Evan
Yeah.
01:05:28
matt
There are worse addictions.
01:05:29
Conor Fowler
yeah
01:05:29
Evan
Oh, OK, yes. Yeah. um But yeah. i So the the first one I bought, um it is this sort of like dark pink and blue and dark yellow mattress jacket.
01:05:45
Evan
um
01:05:48
Evan
It's somewhere on the on the Instagram. And I just loved it. I thought it was so cool. It had a wide lapel. um It was so neat to see that it was like actually from a place, right? Because yeah you you mentioned the sort of like individual logo or labels and stuff.
01:06:03
Evan
And I just sort of like got hooked on this idea that like these things come from somewhere in some time. Someone wore it and maybe had like really great times in it.
01:06:11
Conor Fowler
Yeah, all that stuff.
01:06:13
Evan
i just
01:06:13
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:06:15
Evan
Yeah, this is like one of the real pleasures of like looking through this stuff, even if you don't buy it.
The Art of Collecting Unique Ties
01:06:20
Evan
right Just like seeing this thing and knowing that someone chose this, they loved it, and they had you know hopefully good times in it.
01:06:21
Conor Fowler
Yeah. It's alive.
01:06:31
Conor Fowler
Right.
01:06:31
Evan
um So yeah, I and don't feel bad for your partner. with all your political memorabilia. I will say, though, that there's no shortage of scoundrels in American political life.
01:06:43
Evan
So, yeah, your collection will definitely not end.
01:06:43
Conor Fowler
Yeah. whats
01:06:45
matt
to To be fair, I have like ah have three things that I've been sitting on for Connor that I will send him eventually.
01:06:46
Evan
true
01:06:46
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Practically anyone.
01:06:52
matt
it just, you know.
01:06:53
Evan
Yeah. i have I have one I'll show you a picture of. It's a tie I'll never, ever wear ah from Chip.
01:06:59
Conor Fowler
Oh, tell me about it.
01:07:00
Evan
um But I don't know if it's like... I don't know when it was made. It's from Chip. It's the flags of Southern states.
01:07:10
Conor Fowler
ah
01:07:10
Evan
And maybe also the stars and bars.
01:07:10
Conor Fowler
Oh,
01:07:11
matt
Oh! Of course, of course.
01:07:14
Conor Fowler
Yeah, I got one.
01:07:14
Evan
um So anyway, I bought it when I saw it because it was like $5 or whatever.
01:07:18
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:20
Evan
ah But would never wear it. And i you know i don't even I can't believe I'm telling you. Anyway, I have this you know cursed tie. um
01:07:31
Conor Fowler
Do you saw my Raytheon tie, right? Which I feel like yeah I did not know that it was real.
01:07:33
Evan
Yeah, yeah yeah that one that one's even wilder. But it's still cool!
01:07:39
Conor Fowler
But like, what is so disturbing is that they are like scale representations of missiles that they make.
01:07:48
Evan
Yeah, wow.
01:07:50
Conor Fowler
Just amazing.
01:07:50
Evan
Do you think it was like an office Christmas party gift or something? Yeah, just really odd.
01:07:54
matt
It's got to be.
01:07:54
Conor Fowler
Something like that. Yeah.
01:07:56
matt
Yeah, yeah.
01:07:57
Conor Fowler
Everybody got one for a year.
01:07:57
Evan
yeah just really odd
01:08:00
matt
do you have
01:08:00
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:08:01
matt
Do you have a favorite chip tie? Because i like I fucking love chip ties. I've worked with them, you know, years ago.
01:08:09
Evan
Yeah, that's tough. um
01:08:15
Evan
I'm going to the thing that parents do and say that I love them all equally.
01:08:20
matt
i got you.
01:08:21
Conor Fowler
Thank you.
01:08:21
matt
i got you.
01:08:21
Evan
I think some are like more interesting than others in that they're like, ah you know many of them are like in very bad taste or you know kind of bad taste.
01:08:22
matt
that...
01:08:29
matt
Right, of course. Yeah.
01:08:32
Evan
so
01:08:32
matt
do you Do you have the Santa mooning tie that they've been...
01:08:34
Evan
Yeah, I have the one where he's peeing down the chimney.
01:08:35
matt
Okay.
01:08:38
matt
Those are some of my fucking favorites.
01:08:38
Evan
i have one where he's flipping you off. um Yeah, just ah just some some wild ones. There's one another one i don't even know when I would ever wear it.
01:08:49
Evan
It's a ah guy with a cat on his head. You can you know try to figure out what the pun there is. There's one with like...
01:08:54
matt
Yes, yes. Ha ha ha ha ha.
01:08:57
Evan
there's one with ah like ah two frogs on like a lily pad and it's Y-P-O-M, your pad or mine. would never wear this one to teach.
01:09:11
matt
Right, yeah, yeah.
01:09:11
Evan
ah
01:09:12
matt
Maybe a night out, you know.
01:09:13
Evan
Yeah.
01:09:13
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
01:09:14
matt
Yeah.
01:09:14
Evan
ah But, you know, the the colors in are just so good. I will have to wear at some point.
01:09:17
matt
Right, right. Yeah.
01:09:19
Evan
But yeah, they're just like these weird, i but they're fun to collect because they're just so some of them.
01:09:26
matt
Yeah, there's they're so bizarre. I think the the Fuck You one that they've been making since the dawn of time is is one that I've always wanted and somehow just never bought.
01:09:31
Evan
Yeah.
01:09:35
matt
i don't know why.
01:09:36
Evan
Really? Oh, well, I'll keep an eye out.
01:09:37
matt
Yeah, yeah.
01:09:38
Evan
Yeah. um Because I see those ones come up fairly often.
01:09:44
matt
Yeah, totally.
01:09:44
Evan
I have one in like Burgundy, I think. No? Yeah.
01:09:49
matt
Anyway, Evan, man, this has been super fucking fun.
Podcast Listening Habits
01:09:52
Evan
Yeah, no.
01:09:52
matt
And yeah, very clothing heavy, but also with the connotations of clothing heavy, which is kind of what we're about.
01:09:58
Evan
Mm-hmm.
01:09:59
matt
So thank you.
01:10:00
Evan
Yeah, no, I'm really happy that I finally got to meet you. I can't tell you how many hours I've listened to both of you. Although if I didn't play it at double speed, it would be quite the waiting hour.
01:10:09
matt
Right, it would be more hours.
01:10:11
Evan
Sorry. I'd call back to the beginning before we started.
01:10:13
matt
Yeah, and I got to say, shout out for that tip because now I'm going to have to, I just switched to Apple Music and Podcasts a few months ago and haven't figured out how to do the the faster speed yet.
01:10:17
Evan
Yeah.
01:10:20
Evan
Ah, OK, yeah.
01:10:25
matt
So maybe maybe I'll look into that.
01:10:26
Evan
Yeah, cool.
01:10:27
matt
But anyway, yes, thank you.
01:10:29
Conor Fowler
Matt, I'll tell you how to do it when we get off the air.
01:10:31
matt
Thank you.
01:10:32
Evan
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:32
Conor Fowler
have
01:10:32
matt
um Anyway, Evan, dude, thank you again for coming on. Shout out your account, you know, whatever you would like to just kind of round us out.
01:10:41
Evan
Oh, um I think it's at Evan Thomas Woods. um Just one word. um Yeah. ah Anyway, yeah, follow me or don't. um
01:10:54
matt
You should, you should follow.
01:10:54
Evan
Again, because you know this is all about go to hell, right?
01:10:55
Conor Fowler
Nah,
01:10:57
Evan
I'm just being myself. You can you can you don't have to. ah But yeah, anyway, I enjoy interacting with people, although I'm terrible at it, as Connor can attest.
01:11:08
matt
Yeah.
01:11:08
Evan
um But anyway, yeah, so you know drop me a line, whatever.
01:11:10
Conor Fowler
we won't let you get that. you've been ah You've been very charming and you've handled all of the questions admirably, none of which were written by ChatGPT.
01:11:14
Evan
i mean thank
AI Skepticism and Conclusion
01:11:21
matt
Yeah. yeah Yeah, yeah, we we didn't we will never use AI on this program, thank you.
01:11:28
Evan
Excellent. Yeah. No, I think i think that's the... ah Yeah, we we just have to like build those sort of like attitudes into ourselves, right? Even though i kind of feel like we're yelling at the tide, telling it to go back, but, you
01:11:43
Conor Fowler
Oh yeah, baby.
01:11:44
matt
Yeah, well, if the when the bubble burst, we're gonna we're gonna be on the right side of history and be like, yeah, we told you so, motherfuckers, so.
01:11:45
Conor Fowler
and that's so true.
01:11:51
Evan
know. Yeah, and we'll still have skills, right?
01:11:52
Conor Fowler
for those fans of the show, we will have AI summaries ready for you as soon as we publish in this episode. That's right.
01:12:02
Evan
Yeah.
01:12:02
matt
ah
01:12:02
Conor Fowler
ah machine will have to listen to us instead. Even worse.
01:12:06
matt
ah Anyway, um everyone, thank you for listening. ah We are apocalypsestuds at gmail.com. If you want to send us something, ah send us a fuck AI meme.
01:12:19
matt
Come on.
01:12:20
Conor Fowler
yeah Yeah, send us, please.
01:12:21
matt
Just something.
01:12:21
Evan
Yeah.
01:12:23
matt
I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues.
01:12:27
Conor Fowler
And I am Connor Flower at Connor Flower.
01:12:30
matt
and we will see you next week.