Transcript
Conor Fowler: What ho. Today we are joined by the indomitable Dr. Evan Thomas Woods, philosopher, vegan, and in his own words, a clothes horse.
Conor Fowler: His work and presence online are a quiet rebellion against cruelty, against carelessness, against the idea that you have to pick between doing good and looking good. Evan, welcome.
Evan: Yeah, ah thanks for for having me on here. um
matt: yeah
Evan: I realized that I listened to this podcast at like multiple speed or whatever, so hearing you do the the sort of like slow podcaster voice is actually very disconcerting.
Conor Fowler: See, that's got to be an eclipse.
Evan: so I'll try to slow down.
Conor Fowler: That's good. That's good. i like that. ah Well, it's funny. mean, because I know that so many people do listen to podcasts at like X times, right?
Conor Fowler: So the voices are distorted anyway, but I still find it fun to obviously, because like am an indulgent prick. And so do what I do I do what do best.
matt: I mean, i I'm going to share my, you know, my just non-knowledge of tech and say that I didn't know you could speed up podcasts to listen That makes a lot of sense.
Conor Fowler: that. ah
Evan: yeah think Yeah, think about how much time you can save and how much content you can consume.
matt: Yeah, like like, I've been...
Conor Fowler: Because if these idiots would just speak a little faster, my god.
Evan: but
matt: Right. Like I've been listening to, there's a podcast called Hard War that's like a hardcore punk based, you know, podcast. And they had, ah they did a two episode, like almost four and a half hour long interview with Davey Havoc from AFI. And like, I've listened to about three hours of it. And then I was just like, I have to turn this off for right now.
matt: Man, that that would have made that so much, so much better.
Evan: Yeah, you could have been done in two hours and 15 minutes.
matt: Right, right. here I will say, to be fair, he's got a very soothing voice to listen to.
Evan: Okay.
matt: But yeah, maybe I'll start doing that.
Evan: Yeah, otherwise he'll sound like the the the little people in The Wizard of Oz.
matt: Anyway.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: Right. Who who do represent actually, I'm the representative for the lollipop guild.
matt: ah
Conor Fowler: And that is not the first time that that joke has been made on this program, if you can believe it.
Evan: Oh, no, I can believe it.
Conor Fowler: So is a little bit, yes.
Evan: It's low-hanging fruit.
matt: It's true. It's true.
Conor Fowler: Oh yes. And that's what we're all about here.
matt: ah So so just to you know just to get started, Evan, where are you from and where are you now?
Conor Fowler: Speaking of low hanging fruit.
Evan: Yeah, good. um I guess I'm always curious how much I should be comfortable sharing about myself online, but I'm to throw caution to the wind. I'm originally from Lyonsville, Pennsylvania, a small town, whole dimension less interesting than Squaresville.
Evan: Yeah. um Then I moved to Columbus, Ohio for grad school, where I did ah a PhD at a, here I'll be discreet and say, a large Midwestern university
matt: uh... right right
Conor Fowler: Right, right.
Evan: in philosophy. And I've been there ever since. that was 2012, and I guess it's 2025 now, so 13 Yeah, right.
matt: that's awesome classes act
Evan: one
Conor Fowler: Because you went there and now you are there.
Evan: yeah right i
matt: yeah
Conor Fowler: which is pretty, which is pretty tight. I mean, it's not like you are at a fly by night university. We won't name it, but you know.
Evan: Oh, oh, sorry. Oh, yeah. But, I mean, truth be told, I'm sort of a glorified adjunct um rather than like tenure track or anything. ah
Conor Fowler: Sure, but you still are a professor, which is the point.
Evan: But... Cool. Yeah. No, that's that's true.
matt: Yeah, cool Columbus is also a cool city. Like, I have friends there.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: I've spent ah played there a couple of times when I was in bands years ago. And, like, it's, I don't know, it's got, like, obviously the college football sports things is massive.
Evan: Right.
matt: But, like, it's got some really cool people and, like, you know, little holes in the wall and things that, especially vegan restaurants, too.
Evan: Right, right.
matt: Like, super good.
Evan: Yeah, I love Columbus. it's it's It's great. I actually ran into one of your friends there a few years ago who recognized me from stuff being shared on the podcast.
matt: Oh, really?
Evan: or whatever Yeah. yeah ah Rachel?
matt: Wait, who who did you run into? Oh, Rachel Ryan. Yes, yes.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: She's a one of my best friends. And I came up in 2021, I think, to like hang out for a few days.
Evan: Okay.
matt: And, you know, she lived right on... um like right, you know, kind of in the in the one of the cool parts at that point.
Evan: Right, right.
matt: So, yeah, it was fun.
Evan: Yeah, cool.
matt: That's really funny.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: ah Anyway. um
Conor Fowler: just It's it's small world though. And that's, you know.
matt: Yeah, it really is.
Evan: Yeah, right, right.
matt: Yeah, like, I mean, I guess that's a pretty big distillation of how, like, small the clothing world actually can be, especially, like, the you know, the online clothing world and niche.
Evan: Right.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: um But, hey, ah do you want to give us a ah rundown of what you're wearing today? That jacket looks sick as fuck.
Evan: Oh yeah, thank you. This is this is new to me. um It's from ah Clubmen Satyrs in San Antonio, Texas.
Conor Fowler: Hmm.
Evan: The union tag puts it between 1968 and 1976.
matt: Man, yes, yes.
Evan: hey what i people pointed out this out before but in a ah podcast about clothing it's kind of weird so people can't see it except for the two of you but it's this like crazy ah orange and red and burgundy and like ah cyan blue paisley thing just huge um and then just like yeah
Conor Fowler: It's amazing. That's usually reserved for like women's wear, right? I mean, I feel like whenever I see something like that at the thrift store, I'm like, that's going to be like a size eight woman's blazer.
Evan: yeah
Evan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, it's, it's the it's you know, the buttons are um men.
Conor Fowler: You know what I mean?
Evan: yeah I mean, yeah, anyway.
Conor Fowler: No, I'm not doubting you. I'm just saying like that they made it in that pattern is unusual.
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Uh, especially at the time, I think.
Evan: Well, maybe for ties, right? There's still a lot of paisley ties.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Evan: I listened to another...
Conor Fowler: But that's like a rare area of men's expression where like you can do whatever you want.
Evan: Right, right.
matt: Yeah, I mean, I'm super into like the you know mid to late 60s, like the batik and paisley and whatever, are just like kind of fuck you jackets, I guess, for lack of a better word.
Evan: writing Right, right, right, right.
matt: But like ah personally, i would never wear one because that's just not that's just not how I dress.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: But like on other people, I think they look sick as hell.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah. I mean, I think um this is one of those things where you can kind of get away with it if you always wear loud things.
matt: Right, right.
Evan: But you if I'm just like always walking around in like a gray suit or something, and then I like rocked up wearing this and you know I have shorts on as well, it would look absurd.
matt: Yeah.
Evan: Right.
matt: Right,
Evan: I think it only works because I, you know, to the extent that it does work. I think it only works ah because I like do it all the time.
matt: Totally.
Evan: There's just this like consistency about it.
matt: right right totally
Conor Fowler: You must have like a wardrobe of white shirts. I was looking.
Evan: Yeah, well, I do laundry a lot. um
Conor Fowler: Sure, sure.
Evan: So, yeah.
Conor Fowler: No, I'm not going to call you out in that way.
Evan: um
Conor Fowler: I just think like when I went to college, i brought like eight H&M point collar white shirts.
Evan: Right.
Conor Fowler: Dreadful. But what are you wearing? I mean, what's the idea of the white shirt for you?
Evan: um Well, usually i'm just wearing a white shirt because the pattern on the jacket is so loud.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, no, that's what I mean.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: It's like, your that's like part of your uniform is to wear the white shirt and the busy tie and the busy jacket.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Right, right. Right. um Yeah, I have a few striped ones. I usually end up not wearing those. um Partly, I mean, in the the summer or when it's hot out, right, I have a limited number of short sleeve shirts. Two of them happen to be white and one of them is yellow.
Evan: ah So, you know, limited limited options there.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: And the yellow one might even photograph as white. um
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: So, yeah, necessity i sort of demands that I end up wearing these like white shirts or whatever. And I hate buying the things new, so I'm sort of just constrained um by what I can find in in stores or like on eBay or whatever.
Conor Fowler: Well, I didn't know if you had one that you were like, oh, well, this is the shirt that I, i guess the archetype of what you wanted.
Evan: Yeah, so this is just ah this is a J-Press with the the flap.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Evan: Flap, ah whatever the word I'm looking for here is, pocket. um I like the collar roll on it. um I like that it's soft.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: um I don't really wear non-button-down collars, except maybe with black tie, just because they they feel like they're like too far out and I feel like I'm flying away or something.
Evan: um
Conor Fowler: Yeah, they can be odd.
Evan: yeah But that you know that's just my sort of preference. But yeah.
Conor Fowler: I think we're a button down. Well, Matt, I mean, can speak for Matt, but the button down color for me has been like the, it just this sort of, it's like almost obvious.
Evan: Well, and it's nice you have the option to leave it unbuttoned as well, right?
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: ah
Conor Fowler: Right. Exactly.
Evan: Whereas, yeah, if you don't have a buttoned uncolor, you don't have the option anymore.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: ah look A little spreczatura, you know. Yeah, for me, like, I i like a button-down collar for sure, especially, like, super soft, you know, good roll, you know, great three and a half or so point, a three and a half or so inch point.
matt: um
Evan: Oh, man. Okay, yeah.
matt: But, yeah
Evan: You're really, really particular. I have no idea what the... i i
matt: yeah, yeah, i am I am particular way, in way, way too many ways, but that's just who I am.
Evan: and
Conor Fowler: Well, it just means big, right?
matt: What?
Conor Fowler: It just means big, right?
matt: Yeah, i like ah I like a substantial collar.
Conor Fowler: Like if it's at 3.5 inches, then it means, yeah, then it's, which a lot of shirts are really doomed by the collars, I think.
Evan: Right. Okay, yeah.
matt: You know, like...
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Oh, 100%. Especially, like, more modern stuff, for the most part.
Evan: running Right, right.
matt: Like, you know, you don't...
Conor Fowler: When you started pointing that out, I started seeing it and I was like, damn, that's too small.
matt: You don't want a baby collar.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: Yeah, right. I was sort of trying to to clean out my closet, which, um no surprise, is very difficult.
matt: Yeah.
Evan: But I found all these like just post-2008 J.Crew shirts. And yeah, the collars are like these little tiny Peter Pan collars almost that just button down.
Conor Fowler: yeah and that was like the style at the time i mean bizarre mm-hmm
matt: Yeah, I have no idea why. Right. I mean, you know it it definitely complements the skinny-ass ties that were also very popular at that point. but
Evan: Well, one thing i've I remember or maybe remember reading about is sort of speculating about how clothing got sort of like tighter after the financial crisis.
matt: Yep.
Evan: just Yeah. um So you know maybe it's it's it's part of that.
matt: Yeah, I think so. yeah For me, like if i'm if I'm wearing a tie, it all my dress shirts, or dress, quote unquote, are oxford cloth, unlined cutaway collars, and unlined cuffs, popovers.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: So that's my preference, personally.
Evan: Yeah. Yeah. Good.
Conor Fowler: So back to your Instagram.
Conor Fowler: You describe yourself as a vegan clothes horse, which is an amazing set of descriptors. ah So I'm wondering, dot, dot. dot When did those two parts of your identity, ethics and aesthetics, start to feel inseparable?
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah. Um, So ah i'm gonna I'm going to start off by doing a little bit of philosophy, I guess. um
Conor Fowler: Please.
Evan: Yeah, so ah I guess these are both things in like value theory, right the the part of philosophy that asks and tries to answer questions like what's the nature of value, what's valuable, and what kind of values are there.
Evan: um So that last question, so here are some examples of what I think are are some different kinds of values. So there's like ethical values, ah right, wrong, justice, ah those sorts of notions, right?
Conor Fowler: Yeah, no, I appreciate this very much.
Evan: Yeah, there are like the lethic values, right, having to do with like truth and knowledge or justification.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: um and then there are like aesthetic values, right? ah Beauty, creativity, originality, style, these sorts of things. um
Evan: So I guess I introduced this because um kind of think of our life as having like various projects in it. ah So we have like our ethical projects.
Evan: right These are the things, like the ethical issues and concerns and commitments that we find compelling, great um and the ethical principles that we accept or reject and use to like guide our our thought and life and action.
Evan: And we also have aesthetic projects. um Things like the aesthetic issues or media or experiences and ongoing commitments to things like creativity or originality or style that we find like compelling and engaging and that speak to us and that we use to like speak about ourselves to other people.
matt: Thank you.
Evan: um And I think, so, okay, we have these sort of projects, great. You can think about in your own case, what those projects look like for you, write your ethical projects, aesthetic projects.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: um And I think when we engage in these projects, we're engaging with you know valuable things. right We're engaging with those ethical values or those aesthetic values. Or you know if you have other sorts of projects, right those alethic values like truth or knowledge.
Evan: um And in doing this, ah we express ourselves, but I also think that we like engage in this ongoing sort of like process of creating ourselves. um Now, given the nature of these values, I think that they are related in various ways.
Evan: right um And I think that as a result, the projects are or connected in various ways.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Evan: So a quick example, but many of us care about like the ethics of the art that we consume or like the ethics of the artist who's creating the art that we consume. but So this might be a place where your ethical your ethical projects and your aesthetic projects sort of interlink.
Evan: um Or we might care about like the political stances of the music ah that we engage with, or maybe something like the ethics of the food that we consume.
Conor Fowler: sure
Evan: So when i reflect on my own projects, um maybe I just have this like need to systematize. But it's important to me that the the values sort of like align and be internally coherent, right that they not be out of whack or out of sync with one another.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: um So thinking about like being vegan, um I think if you ah seriously like commit to taking you know seriously commit to veganism or you're familiar with the arguments, um it makes you aware of a lot of unquestioned assumptions.
Evan: um at least in wider society. right Obviously, vegans and other people are are questioning some of these assumptions. So things I have in mind here, um there are like assumptions about the nature of human and non-human animals, um about the nature of food, about workers and workers' rights, about about the value of life.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Right.
Evan: um And then there are some like really explicit connections that we can make with aesthetic values. right So um when we think about veganism, there are these sort of ethical issues about consumption.
Evan: um about the environmental and ethical costs of our choices, and about the things that we think are like appropriate objects of gustatory experience. right Things that it's like appropriate to eat and that we take aesthetic pleasure in eating.
Conor Fowler: right minutes
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: um And I think when you start thinking about these things, you you realize like how ingrained in society and the food we eat and in the products and attitudes, or sorry, in the products that we have and the attitudes that we have toward other humans and non-human animals, um that once you're aware of these sorts of things, you can't help um but see sort of the inseparability of i you know sort of your ethical projects and your aesthetic projects.
Evan: right So here's a really straightforward example. right We all have to eat. right um And you know given how often we eat, eating is an important source of like aesthetic experience.
Evan: um So as someone who doesn't you know eat animals, right um my sort of like aesthetic projects when it comes to like creating food and I love cooking, I just don't share it on Instagram because, you know, food photography all makes it look like shit.
Conor Fowler: Well,
Evan: well I love cooking and I cook all the time. um But my my sort of aesthetic project when it comes to food is constrained in various ways, right? So for example, there's no chicken.
Evan: right um But I think that i these sorts of constraints, um once you sort of like put them all together right into this like inseparable amalgam, right can make your sort of ethical projects and your aesthetic projects much deeper and interesting.
Evan: and Yeah. So anyway, I guess the the short answer of all that is, like look, if you just sort of think about these values, it seems really weird for me to be for them to be like insulated from one another right because of the way that these sort of values interact with one another.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: um So I guess they've always been inseparable insofar as I've cared about these things or had these sorts of projects. um But I guess what i what I've been trying to do is give you like some reasons why that is.
matt: Yeah, honestly, you just described... the reason that I am vegan to a T and I'd never even like put together. Actually, you described a lot of my my entire life, like being being into clothes and being vegan and like you know sustainability, selling vintage.
Evan: Oh, cool. Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: like i've
Evan: Great.
matt: I don't remember the last time I bought something new clothing-wise. And wow, yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: that I'd never never really thought about it in that way. But like philosophically, it is it is spot the fuck on.
Evan: Yeah, that's awesome. i'm glad and I'm glad that it speaks to you.
matt: Yeah, yeah, totally. how How long have you been vegan?
Conor Fowler: I knew when Matt wasn't talking, I was like, ah, the ideas is percolate.
Evan: i Yeah. ah How long?
matt: Yeah.
Evan: um So it it it has been sort of like a process. So I first started um dabbling, I guess, in veganism, like becoming vegan, I guess, ah when I was in college.
Evan: So this would have been like 2008. And eight I did that for a couple of years.
matt: Okay.
Evan: And then I like backslid into vegetarianism. And then I backslid even more. And then, you know, think about eight or nine years at this point.
Conor Fowler: you were pretty much, you
matt: Yeah.
matt: Okay, yeah.
Evan: I think the end, yeah.
matt: About the... Yeah, I'm at like eight and a half, I think.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: And it just, like, I was vegetarian for a long time, then I wasn't, and...
Evan: Yeah.
matt: I don't know, then meat started really grossing me out, which is also also funny because my partner at the time was vegan, and then she started eating meat right when I became vegan.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah's yeah, it's nothing that I care about.
Evan: I don't know. Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: But I was just like like, it just happened one day. like I'd started...
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: kind of becoming grossed out with meat and like the texture. I mean, I like the texture of like some fake meats.
Evan: Right.
matt: I try not to eat processed bullshit fake meat a lot, but like, you know, there's still something about that or like a a very well cooked tofu can kind of, you know, mimic that.
Evan: Right. Right.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: But like a friend and I went thrifting. He was vegan. He had been for a while and we were just talking and we went to, uh, this vegetarian spot that is sadly closed in Athens, Georgia, and um just started and ate a vegan meal and just haven't eaten meat since.
Evan: Yeah, no, I mean, given, um like, there there there's like a sort of explanation here, maybe for like, why it sticks sometimes and why it doesn't, right? Like, I was talking about these sort of projects and these sort of values that you find like compelling or that speak to you, right? And maybe I think the first time that I, you know, went vegan or vegetarian or whatever, i had this sort of like feeling that it was the right thing to do, but I hadn't like really...
Evan: thought hard enough about the values and like why they were important to me.
matt: Right.
Evan: right Whereas the second time, right you know something has clicked and now you know the values really speak to me. um
matt: he
Conor Fowler: Can I ask, like, because what I was trying to say before, you're kind of peerless, I guess, as a vegan in, what year did you say, 2008, Ohio?
Evan: yeah ah Yeah.
Evan: Yeah. Pennsylvania at that time.
Conor Fowler: Like, how many, well, even even still, like, how many people, did you have a lot of vegan friends back then?
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Were you going at it alone?
Evan: No, right.
Conor Fowler: Did people make fun of you all the time?
Evan: ah No. um So ah I was at a small liberal arts college, so you know vegans are a dime a dozen there.
Conor Fowler: ice I see, I see, I see, I see.
Evan: oh yeah ah So you know there were like options in the food halls.
matt: but
Evan: They were terrible, but you know there were options.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: um I don't think I've ever really been made fun of, at least to my face, ah about being vegan.
Conor Fowler: Really? That's so funny. Like the vegans I know, dude, have been like Billy, who Matt knows. People still to this day, Billy is 35 people make fun of Billy for being a vegan.
Conor Fowler: and It's fucking crazy.
Evan: Really?
matt: it's It's fucking 2025.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: Who the hell...
Evan: Yeah, I don't even know, like, what what is the, you know, what's the, like, but but you know, what's the joke, right?
Conor Fowler: tofu eater you suck whatever eat see eat so many vegetables
Evan: Yeah, like Soy Boy or something. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Conor Fowler: it'd be hard it's hard it's a hard uh case to make i guess but people are still people are still super weirded out by it my brother's a vegan my brother catches shit from my family all the time like why can't you just why can't you just eat the fucking meat it's like what's the problem
Evan: Right.
matt: That's so weird.
matt: Right, like I might get you know a little joke from a close friend here and there, but like no one has ever made fun of me for not eating animal products.
Evan: Right. Yeah. I mean, I guess the other sort of, you know, I come from this, like, I'm i'm very lucky at the moment that I'm in this sort of like rarefied atmosphere of like philosophers and tons of philosophers are vegan.
Evan: Right.
matt: yeah
Evan: So it's, it you know, I don't find myself.
Conor Fowler: and why And it's like, and why do you think that is?
Evan: in yeah Yeah. I don't find myself having to go, you know, with my friends to the the local barbecue spot or something and being the odd one out.
matt: Right, right.
Evan: So, yeah.
matt: Yeah, if man if we had like a southern barbecue vegan spot in Atlanta, I would be there all the fucking time.
Evan: I'm surprised there isn't. Yeah.
matt: Yeah, me too. there There is a really good, or yes, there there are a lot of really, really good restaurants here that have like amazing vegan options.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
Evan: yeah
matt: I have to shout out Harmony, ah Chinese in Chambly, which has been in business for like 40 years or something, but like still still one of the best vegan Chinese spots I've ever had in my life.
Evan: Okay, yeah.
matt: But yeah, that...
Evan: I made a note of it if I find myself in Atlanta area.
matt: Oh, yeah, dude.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: there's There's kind of always been that here. We also have Soul Vegetarian, which is all vegan, and it's like...
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: I think there used to be one, maybe in like DC or something, but um it's black owned and there, I can't remember what, there's there's some sort of religion ah behind it, like kind of in you know the way that like Krishna is a big you know proponent of vegan and vegetarianism and had restaurants over the years, but like you know there Atlanta's kind of always had that.
Evan: Right.
Evan: Right.
matt: that scene locked down. So yeah, if you ever find yourself down here, holler at me and I'll give you some good recs and we can grab a meal.
Evan: Yeah, that'd awesome. Cool. Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to that.
matt: um
Conor Fowler: No, dude, people used to make fun of Billy because Billy would always say, like, let's have a communal vegan meal.
matt: Right, right, which is...
Conor Fowler: And people would be like, you fucking dork.
Evan: yeah
Conor Fowler: And it's like yeah it's like, this is what they did to the hippies, right?
matt: I mean, honestly,
Conor Fowler: They just, like, fucked them up for being nice.
Evan: Yeah, right.
matt: But honestly, like how, you know and I don't want to like go off on a tangent too much about this, but like how is that any different from like having a big potluck that's a crawfish boil?
matt: Or like whatever, like the only difference is there's no
Evan: Right, right, yeah.
Conor Fowler: It's because it's different from my life.
matt: yeah there's no animal products, but but ah beyond that, it's not really that fucking weird.
Evan: okay
Conor Fowler: It's not like there's a there's like baby sacrifice or whatever.
Evan: Yeah, right, right.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Right, right, yeah, yeah, which would which would kind of not be vegan, you know? like
Evan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, so i I was under the impression that Clothes Horse is just a name for like the thing that you put clothes on.
Conor Fowler: Exactly. Well, and I was going to say, how is a clothes horse vegan?
Conor Fowler: I do believe like a saddle horse, yes, but I'm just saying it's a horse.
Evan: Yeah. i I never put together that there was this like odd potentially odd juxtaposition.
Conor Fowler: It's a horse, of course.
Evan: um
Conor Fowler: Well, that's what this show is about.
Evan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: And I'll juxtaposition
Evan: But yeah, I don't know. um That's all I have to say about that, I guess.
Conor Fowler: That's succinct enough.
Evan: Right.
Conor Fowler: The next question, ah and this is obvious, you've got a background in philosophy, dot, dot, dot.
Evan: um
Evan: right
Conor Fowler: and How does that shape the way you ah think about getting dressed, consumption, or even beauty itself? Who wrote this shit?
Evan: Yeah, ah the the beauty part is really hard.
Conor Fowler: this shit?
Evan: um i don't think I spend much time thinking about beauty, um but I can say a few things. ah
Conor Fowler: Steve Bautista, Beauty broad there's that a beautiful is that a beautiful jacket it's a it's a beautiful jacket.
Evan: Yeah, yeah leaving yeah okay. Yeah, I think, I guess, um
Evan: yeah, there what am I trying to say? ah you know When you think about philosophy, when you think about like truth and beauty, all these things have like capital letters.
Conor Fowler: Bautista, Mm
Evan: um I don't spend too much time thinking about beauty with a a capital B. um But yeah, I can talk about like getting dressed and maybe just like aesthetic value.
Conor Fowler: Please. Yeah, please.
Evan: um So one sort of issue that I'm like increasingly interested in is like creativity.
matt: Thank you.
Evan: um What is creativity and why is it valuable? um I think we all can agree that it's valuable. right um Here's like the really quick argument. We could just imagine a life where you don't have any opportunity to like be creative.
Conor Fowler: Well, that's what they want.
Evan: Well, right. that's it yeah it turns out we might be getting close to that.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: But it seems terrible. right No one would want to live like that.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: Or I hope no one would want to live like that.
Conor Fowler: Well, it's like that's a North Korean existence.
Evan: Although, yeah, right. great um Although, what? Their Juche symbol does have a paintbrush. But anyway, not to not sorry not to be like the North Korean apologist on the podcast at the moment.
Conor Fowler: Right. yeah
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: that' don't Don't take this the wrong way, whoever's listening.
Conor Fowler: It's not what it looks like.
Evan: um I am not not a wrong thinker. um but ah So anyway, um when I think about like getting dressed, right um the way that I see it is just like an opportunity to be creative.
Evan: um to like exercise this capacity. um And now it's going to sound like maybe be kind of ridiculous, but I think there's some truth to it. Like it's an opportunity to like stand up against a world that's becoming like increasingly flat and conformist.
Evan: um
Conor Fowler: Nail on the head.
Evan: So, oh, sorry.
Conor Fowler: I said, nail on the head.
Evan: Yeah, right. um So like thinking about creativity and like the fact that it is important, like one thing that I think is really disheartening is to see like people sort of outsourcing their opportunities to be creative.
Evan: um So you know in the beginning,
matt: AI has entered the chat.
Evan: Right, yeah, right. So in the in the context of teaching, right the obvious example is like chat GPT.
matt: ah
Evan: And maybe there are responsible ways to use this. and That's what my university tells me. And that's what we're supposed to like maybe try to teach students.
matt: Yeah.
Evan: OK, maybe there are things that aren't cheating, but it still seems like a huge waste. Right? um When you're in school, right, this is maybe one of the last times that you're going have the like opportunity to figure out what you think for yourself and then have someone actually read it, right, or listen to it.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: um So it's just like mind-boggling to me that students would be willing to like not take this opportunity to do that and just outsource everything.
Conor Fowler: Do you find lot? Is that like, because I'm sure that's lot. There's a lot of that happening, right?
Evan: Yeah, there's supposed to be ways to try to like avoid it, like making students do work in class. um That has its own drawbacks, but that's kind of increasingly what I've been trying to do, rather than having them like go home and quote unquote write an essay.
Evan: um
Conor Fowler: Right. Right.
Evan: yeah um Another sort of like way that people outsource creativity, like I feel like I'm probably preaching to the choir here, is like trends. right um you know I was out walking around this morning, and you know every other guy I saw was wearing one of those like vest things.
matt: Oh God, yeah.
Evan: is just like the the uniform, right? um And you can't tell me that people are wearing this because they like it, right? Or if they do like it, it's because it's like trendy, right? I think this is just so weird that like,
matt: Right. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: right
Evan: grown adults who maybe otherwise do proclaim that they like value their freedom and like their individuality are willing to just sort of ah do whatever the crowd is telling them to do.
Evan: I find that just so odd.
matt: yeah
Evan: So anyway, we have so few opportunities to be creative. um I think our lives are going to be richer. right My own life is richer if you take the opportunity to like exercise your creative capacities. And I kind of think it's like a use it or lose it type thing.
Evan: Right? Yeah. So anyway, that's how I think about getting dressed and like why I take like pleasure in it and you know part of what I'm trying to do when I'm getting dressed.
matt: Thank you.
Evan: um When it comes to like aesthetic experiences more broadly, I'm thinking about things like reading a book or a short story or watching a movie or listening to music or just like going for a walk and seeing what people are wearing, you know all these sorts of things.
Evan: I think um philosophy has helped me develop analytical skills right to engage with the world around them more deeply.
matt: <unk>aries should
Evan: right um You can really think philosophically about anything, I think. um And having this sort background allows to talk with people about, don't like background allows me to like talk with people about and now um
Evan: themes in film, or I really enjoy like tiki. So like the ethics of enjoying tiki, like, or what's going on with tiki is a cultural appropriation, these sorts of things.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: um The metaphysics of cocktails, right? Or like things like the connection, if there is any between ethics and style, or the aesthetics of fascism, right? I was interested in that for a while.
Evan: um Or there was like the thing making...
Conor Fowler: Do you have any, do you have any, uh, I don't know, Cliff's notes on that? I feel like that's, that's in the crosshairs of this show. Certainly.
Evan: Yeah, I mean, the thing everyone should you know check out if you are interested in this is the Susan Sontag. um God, what is the name of the the piece?
Evan: It's escaping me at the moment, but it's a ah review of like Lenny Riefenstahl's work. um
Conor Fowler: I see.
Evan: Oh, Fascinating Fascism, right, is the name of the piece.
Conor Fowler: There it is
Evan: It's great. I can send it to you you folks if you want to read it.
Conor Fowler: Oh, please, yeah.
Evan: um But yeah, ah there's that. There's a new documentary out on Riefenstahl. I haven't seen it yet because I had to teach during, you know, when it was like being brought or, you know, being played at the... ah the movie theater, but I'm looking forward to that too.
Evan: um But yeah, there's there's ah people writing on this. Worth checking out. But yeah, i' I don't have like a ah quick sort of version of it, at least prepared.
matt: Well, I mean, you know, if we think about it in like modern terms, ah modern being the past, i don't know, decade of American politics in particular, like, you know, a lot of, and especially this year with everything going on, like one of the biggest like complaints from the liberals and who are the quote unquote opposition party is that like,
Conor Fowler: No, no.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
Evan: Right.
matt: you you know, the the inhumane shit that is being done is not attractive the way that it was under Obama or or Biden or whatever.
Evan: Right. right Yeah, where you just didn't see it.
matt: Yeah, like, like their their whole complaint is that, like, it's stupid and ugly.
Evan: Right. Yeah.
matt: And it's like, no, that's not the fucking point. The fucking point is that it's fascist.
Evan: Right. Yeah, it's wrong.
matt: It's like, yeah, like, it is not something any human should be doing to any other human being.
Evan: Right, yeah.
matt: Like, it doesn't matter how it's fucking dressed.
Evan: Yeah, right. So yeah, i I think fascism delights in the the sort of spectacle of the inhumanity.
matt: Agree.
Evan: ah
matt: Agree.
Evan: So, okay, is the opposition party fascist? I don't want to touch that question.
matt: Yeah, that's fine.
Evan: Yes, right.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, yeah.
matt: That's right.
Evan: At least they're not as openly fascist.
matt: Right. Right.
Evan: But yeah, I hasten to add that all opinions expressed here are my own and not that of any of my employers.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: No, we don't, um, yeah, we don't certainly don't pretend that we know anything here. So
Evan: ah Yeah, all that we know is that we know nothing.
matt: Yeah, admit
Evan: This is our philosophy reference.
matt: maybe maybe, what's the, ah ah I don't wanna linger on this too much longer, but you know the when when fascism comes to America, it'll be you know holding a Bible, yeah, i wrapped in a flag and holding a Bible.
Conor Fowler: yeah.
Evan: Oh yeah, wrapped in a flag and carrying a barbell. Yeah.
matt: It'll also be wearing dress sneakers.
Evan: yeah Yeah, right, right, right.
matt: So that that that is what's brought us to this current moment.
Conor Fowler: Right. We wearing a hybrid. Yeah, dude, for sure.
Evan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Well, because I always malign the tactical boat shoe, you know, which is like
Evan: Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: ah
Conor Fowler: just despicable. It's like, why does it have that new balance sort of?
Evan: Yeah, these neither fish nor fowl sort of footwear. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Exactly. It's like make a choice, be in one game for another game.
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Except for my
Evan: yeah ah
Conor Fowler: being mocks, which I love very much, which are really in, they're kind of in every camp.
Evan: Yeah. ah Yeah, you'll have to you have to reflect on what that tells you about yourself.
Conor Fowler: I know what it tells me about myself. I'm aware and I love it. I've got to say, I mean, cause I can go wherever I want in those things.
Evan: Yeah, right. Okay, okay.
Conor Fowler: Wherever I'm still, wherever I'm still welcome.
Evan: I guess we're loafers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. No, I guess what?
Conor Fowler: I do a... Mm-hmm.
Evan: there There are other sort of like... There was that thing making the rounds about like MagaFace earlier in the year.
Conor Fowler: will
Evan: If you were sort of familiar with this, the sort of like... ah Very particularly like Botoxed, bleached, flowing locks of hair, sort of like look for women.
Evan: And then the sort of like super quote unquote masculine view, or like ah Pete Higseth or whatever the fuck his name is. sort of thing.
Evan: um And you know I think the sort of connection there with fascist ideology is pretty clear, right? The role of women, ah sort of like glorification of strength, respectively.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Right, which is really funny.
Conor Fowler: All the good checkboxes that were like.
Evan: Yeah, right, right.
matt: Which is, it's also particularly funny to me because, like, all these dudes are wearing the world's tightest suits with the world's worst shoes.
Evan: Right.
matt: And i know Derek Guy has talked about this, you know, at length or whatever, but, like, those are the same people that were making fun of anyone that was, like, into clothing back in the day.
Evan: Right.
Evan: Right, right.
matt: So it's like, yeah.
Evan: yeah no they're Yeah, they're like 10, 15, 20 years behind at this point.
matt: Right, right, yeah.
Conor Fowler: that's the real that's the real like i don't know irony of it all is the whatever um so i guess this is a perfect segue like if your wardrobe were an argument what would it be arguing for see is that an annoying question i don't know if that's an annoying question because i feel like you have a good answer for it yeah well i'm a cute guy
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: it's Well, it's ah it's a cute question. um
matt: Ha ha ha ha.
Evan: Take that how you will. um So I did think about this. So thank you for sending me the questions beforehand. I did think about this question, um but i and I didn't come up with much.
Conor Fowler: God, yeah.
Evan: Or at least what I came up with, okay, it's not like an argument.
Conor Fowler: but
Evan: um I guess the way that I like tried to approach the question is like, what sort of things might I'd be trying to communicate with my my wardrobe.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. it With your creative act of dressing.
Evan: right
Evan: Yeah. um Yeah. So um just sort of thinking about like what's in my wardrobe, which is there's a lot of it. um So you know I occasionally find things I forgot I had.
Conor Fowler: cause how many jackets do you have? Do you know?
Evan: I don't know. i'm i didn't count. and Sorry, excuse me. um I recently figured out how to store my ties with those little plastic ah things that you you buy ties on at the at the store or whatever.
Conor Fowler: Uh-huh.
Evan: so I got a pack of 200 of those, thinking for sure that would be enough. um But it it wasn't.
Conor Fowler: So you have in excess of 200 ties.
Evan: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: And then, so you must have a double digit number at least of jackets, right?
Evan: Yeah, I know that it's at least, well, yeah, of course it's at least double digit.
Conor Fowler: That's what the fuck I'm talking about.
Evan: yeah
Conor Fowler: So that's impressive shit.
Evan: triple Triple digit. It's probably triple digit, honestly. um
Conor Fowler: you really think you have triple digits of jackets?
Evan: I am certain that I do because a few years ago I counted and I had in the 90s.
Conor Fowler: Wow, what the fuck? Dude, I thought you had like 30.
Evan: No, look at the look at the grid, right?
Conor Fowler: and um
Evan: right
Conor Fowler: see the grid. I looked at it this morning and I was like, wow, that's really a lot of stuff.
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Because you were like, well, so what's his deal? I mean, why are you having him on the show? And it's like, well, you have to look at the grid. Like it's just this its isn't a stunning array of both jackets and ties in combination.
Evan: Yeah. um Yeah. So hopeful hopefully it's not just like because there's just so much of it that it's interesting.
matt: Thank you.
Conor Fowler: No, no, it's artful.
Evan: But anyway.
Conor Fowler: It's artful.
Evan: Yeah. Yeah, we we anyway. ah So um what what is the you know what what's being communicated by all this? Or what could one like gather from it? um So I think one thing that sort of becomes apparent is um a lot of it is like really fun and colorful.
Evan: um And a lot of it is from the 70s. And it just seems so like the you were mentioning this jacket that I'm wearing today. It just seems that like men's clothing in particular was like much more fun, much more colorful, much more interesting than it is now.
matt: hundredter hundred percent
Evan: um So, you know, this goes back to that sort of like general flattening. um Now, this isn't to say that everyone was wearing like colorful, you know, rainbow madras every day or something.
Evan: ah But sort of think about like consumption habits in the 60s and 70s, right? People had considerably less, right? All you have to do is like look at a closet in a house from the 60s or 70s and there are these tiny little, you know, um yeah, like a broom closet, right? But they're in your your bedroom or whatever.
Evan: Okay, so we've got a lot less stuff.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: um So what this sort of like communicates to me is that the people who were buying this, right they had generally less. um Many of these things seem to have been custom made, given the the tags inside with like the information.
Evan: but So people were buying these things because they really meant something to them. They wanted like this particular piece, right and they're limited like real estate the closet or like how expensive clothing was at the time compared to like the yeah how sort of cheap you can get clothing for today comparatively. like
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: Right. So I think that's really interesting. um i think it's something that I need to do a better job sort of thinking about when I'm like getting things right. Like, why is this piece like special to me or why does it speak to me?
Evan: ah Why does it deserve deserve the sort of like limited space in my closet? um I think, you know, um maybe people already do this.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Evan: I certainly don't, right? I kind of impulse by a lot of things because I think, oh my god, it's the only one. I'm never going to see it again. and if I don't get it, I'm going to regret it. um
Conor Fowler: But like, isn't that kind of true?
Evan: Yeah, actually.
Conor Fowler: How many, how many of those, how many of that jacket are still extant, you know?
Evan: a
Evan: Right, right.
matt: Right.
Evan: I occasionally see like you know doubles of something, um you know something I already have, and I thought, like oh, this is the only only one I'm ever going to see, but is' it's very rare.
Conor Fowler: i feel like I've only, I accidentally bought two of the same Gantt shirt on eBay.
Evan: Really?
Conor Fowler: Yes.
Evan: Is it because you forgot who had the one?
Conor Fowler: Okay. I don't know what happened, man.
Evan: Okay.
Conor Fowler: i mean, it was just, uh, no, no. I bought them like in succession.
Evan: oh
Conor Fowler: and hello
matt: so
Conor Fowler: And so, I had them, I mean, I'm notorious for that thing among many other things.
Evan: ah
matt: Thank you.
Conor Fowler: Um, but aside from that, like, no, I haven't seen very much. Uh, and I, and I'm not, I don't think as much in the shit as you guys are for sure. But like, um, It's so insane that there used to be all these little men's stores.
Conor Fowler: And we talk about all of fucking time, like that, that had their own logos. I mean, talk about creativity, like talk about an opportunity for creativity, even that just doesn't exist at all anymore.
Evan: Right, right.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: Period.
matt: Well, and and part of that too, um you know aside from you know wages not keeping up with the you know cost of living and inflation and all that, but like you know pretty much anything –
Evan: Right.
Evan: Right.
matt: mid 70s and prior was like made in the states for the most part it was union uh labor making it and it you know it was it was kind of affordable for like the average joe and the working class like that's you know if if you want something now that's nice and you know made ethically and whatever like it costs through the nose but part part of that is because you know
Evan: Right.
Evan: right
Evan: Right. That's a good point. Yeah.
Evan: Right.
Conor Fowler: It's insane.
Evan: Right.
Conor Fowler: It's fucking insane.
matt: labor costs are so high for anywhere that's like, you know, not a sweatshop for the most part and you know, it's not even Yeah, yeah
Evan: Right.
Conor Fowler: Derek just did a thing about the cost of a shirt. The cost of a domestically produced shirt is like $220. There's really no way around it.
matt: Yeah, and like, you know, if you think about it and I've thought about this a lot over my years in the clothing industry like if if your average person that was, you know bartending or like, do you know, working construction or whatever like you know If they were paid what they should be paid at this point, if everyone was, $2.25 or whatever it costs to make a shirt or buy a shirt retail in the U.S.
matt: would not be that weird.
Evan: Right. Yeah, that's a good point.
matt: you know It's kind of like...
Conor Fowler: Well, because they they don't have to keep up with one another necessarily.
matt: Right, right. and like you know a lot of this is by design because the JCPenney's, the Sears, the Walmarts...
Conor Fowler: Montgomery wards.
matt: Like, the Walmartification and and and now Amazonification of society has, like, has necessitated this because nobody can afford fucking shit that, like, actually, you know, is good and lasts.
Evan: Right.
matt: And i'm I'm not even just talking about American-made, but, like, you know, higher-end, like, Chinese stuff. Like, you know, Japanese.
Conor Fowler: Do you know the tyranny of the boot?
Evan: Right.
Evan: What is it?
Conor Fowler: The tyranny of the boot, I think, or the tragedy of the boot?
Evan: Oh, yeah, the what, Terry Pratchett. Sorry, is this what we're thinking of?
Conor Fowler: No, it's like, it's a socialist tract that is like the boot, and you use the boot as an example, right?
matt: Oh, the... the the
Evan: Oh, no, I'm going to have to...
Conor Fowler: So if you're a poor worker, you can only ever afford the shitty boot.
Evan: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: You know, if you're a rich person, you buy the nice boot, you resole it, whatever.
matt: Yeah.
Evan: Right.
matt: Yeah, I mean, that that is kind of like what, um you know, American society and has become at this point, like.
Conor Fowler: Yes.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah, right. And you know after the point is made, what? After a year or whatever, your cheap boots fall apart and you have to buy another one. And then in the long run, the suggestion is you're going to spend more on boots than you know the the nicely made one.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Evan: But upfront cost is prohibitive.
matt: but Right, right. And and there you know there are definitely certain points of the quote-unquote buy less, buy better thing that are like completely absurd for most people.
Evan: Right.
matt: you know like it It is not at this point like you know that philosophy is great in a lot of ways, but like buying secondhand is also a part of it.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: And
Evan: Yeah, yeah.
matt: You know, like...
Evan: No, I, yeah, the second hand stuff.
Conor Fowler: Just not buying from Sheen.
Evan: Yeah, yeah.
matt: yeah. yeah or Yeah, Jesus Christ. Sheen, any piece of clothing that I touch, like, in a thrift store that feels, you know, like, bit like viscerally terrible is 99%
Conor Fowler: Radioactive.
Evan: Yeah, yeah.
matt: Sheen. And it, like, makes me dry.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Like, I've literally dry-heed touching Mm-hmm.
Evan: Yeah. Well, it's, I mean, one thing to sort of, like, think about, I guess, is, like, it's crazy how quickly it got there, right?
matt: Yeah, 100%.
Evan: Like, and when it gets there, probably only has one or two more wares left in it.
Conor Fowler: That's fast fashion.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Right, right. Oh, i so I saw a Taylor Swift Arras tour shirt the other day in a thrift, and I was like, oh, wow, yeah, she's she's the biggest you know biggest musical artist on the planet, but it's already made it to a thrift.
Evan: Right, right.
Evan: Yeah. Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Just astonishing.
Evan: No, but I mean, yeah, if you if you are serious about wanting high quality things and you don't want to spend a lot of money, just go go to a thrift store, right? Or get on eBay or hell, go to a vintage store, right?
matt: Right, right.
Evan: um
matt: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah, there's just so much good stuff out there. Sure, it's consumption, but it's like not the same thing as buying like a brand new thing. um
matt: Right.
Evan: Yeah, the the money, you know depending on where you're shopping, is going to stay local and all these other sort of things that you might care about.
matt: Totally.
Evan: yeah Yeah, so support your local vintage dealer.
matt: Yes, please, please. we need We need all the help we can get at this point.
Conor Fowler: Oh.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: ah So Evan, like where does your style inspiration come from? like are there you know Is people? Is eras, textures? you know Where do you stand on that?
Evan: Yeah. um that's ah That's a really hard question. um
matt: Yeah, it could be as broad as you want to you know want to answer it to.
Evan: Yeah. um I mean, you mentioned the but sort of like fuck you jacket at the beginning. um i was going to put it in terms of like go to hell pants.
matt: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Evan: So the the idea, you know, these sort of you know things that ah men would wear on the weekend when they didn't have to wear a suit. And it was like some constrained way for them to express some sort of individuality.
Evan: Usually they're kind of like garishly colored or they're patchwork or embroidered or like all three at once. um So I think, so maybe I need to back up.
Evan: So um maybe I need to say something about like style or what I think of as style. So I think style is a lot broader than just like clothing. um So I've been, so there's this paper by a philosopher at University of San Diego, Nick Riggle, and he writes about style, right?
Conor Fowler: okay
Evan: And his idea is that personal style is something like expressing one's ideals. um And you do this in, you know or you can do this in all parts of your life, not only the way that you dress, but the way that you sort of act and conduct yourself, the sort of friendships that you have.
Evan: um So yeah, so this is the way I think about style. OK, and now I've introduced the idea of like Go to Hell Pants. And the way I think about like my own style, um the the clothing choices that I have, the aesthetic projects that I have, the ethical projects that I have, is something like, OK, what if you took the idea of like Go to Hell Pants and you just like applied it across the board?
matt: um That's great.
Conor Fowler: Good health outfit.
Evan: um So, you you know, I exuberant love for life, um andapologeically ah unapologetically liking the things that I like um and getting trying to get other people excited about the things that they like or like sharing the things that I like with other people.
Evan: In a way that, you know in the same way that you can't look away from the the garish go to hell pants, right I'm hoping that people can't look away ah from like my style right as an expression of my ideals.
Evan: um So that's like the overarching idea. ah When it comes to clothing, um I guess, yeah, it's again the the go to hell pants thing. But you know if you look at the the Instagram or whatever, I'm really into like bright stuff, bright plaids, madras, tartan.
Conor Fowler: right
Evan: ah Things embroidered, you know ties embroidered with like unusual like bad taste motifs, patchwork pants and sports coats, short shorts with sports coats, loafers without socks.
matt: will
Evan: I wear tassel loafers without socks with black tie um in the summer.
matt: Hell yeah!
Conor Fowler: How long?
Evan: special
matt: Hell yeah!
Evan: The craziest sort of like ah fashion middle finger to anyone who knows you know anything about this.
matt: I was gonna say, when you mention not wearing a button-down with black tie, that you should fucking do that.
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: That's why, yeah, why I never wear socks.
Evan: yeah mean I really like the feeling of the ruffles, though.
matt: Yeah, I feel it.
Evan: um
matt: I feel it. I've never in my life worn black tie, but I love seeing seeing people like my buddy chris but buddy Chris Roy, who comes up on this fucking show all the time.
Evan: Yeah. Yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: He bought ah a corduroy tuxedo from J.Crew a couple years ago.
Evan: Oh, wow. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Oh, man.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Yeah, and his ah his daughter is an actor, like, getting big.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: She's, like, nine years old, but ah she was in a film that premiered at Sundance, and he was going to wear that with some Belgian lopers, a white button-down shirt, a black knit tie, and his wife vetoed it.
Evan: yeah
matt: I was like,
Evan: Yeah.
matt: so Yeah, totally, totally.
Evan: Well, why not? I feel like the the corduroy at Sundance would be like a lot of fun, right Because it does have this sort of like rugged westernness to it. i don't know about the Nittad.
Conor Fowler: yeah
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Did you see that Peter Zatolo corduroy suit that he was just wearing the other day we posted on the show's stories?
Evan: and know
Conor Fowler: Really, really i amazing.
Evan: Yeah. um So yeah, so there's all these like ah different you know bright things that I like. and I guess it's like some intersection across the year of like Trad and Ivy and Preppy and TPP.
matt: you
Evan: right? Maybe that's like all the things sort of coming together. um So a lot of these things, I think, in the ways that I combine them are at the edge of bad taste, right? Either right up against the line of bad taste or over the line.
Conor Fowler: Perhaps.
Evan: um And I love that, right? So what? ah John Waters has that sort of like quotation about bad taste, right?
matt: oh yeah
Evan: Like,
Conor Fowler: Yes.
Evan: there's There's bad, bad taste and there's good, bad taste and good, bad taste is something like knowing the rules and like intentionally breaking them. Like that that's the sort of like thing that I'm trying to go for.
matt: right
Evan: um Again, you know, it's this like go to hell idea where like I like the things that I like and I'm being my own person unapologetically and, you know, it's loud and maybe kind of obnoxious, but it's me.
Conor Fowler: We got to get John on the show.
Evan: I love it. Yeah.
matt: Right, right. And and just from you know this interview, i don't think that in life you were neither loud nor obnoxious. thats As a human being, like you like that's that's just your way of expressing those inner thoughts because you don't present yourself that
Evan: Well, okay, okay, okay.
Evan: Yeah, yeah.
matt: ah you don't present yourself that way
Evan: Yeah, yeah. um Yeah. ah So I guess what? there's There's like a big shift in my clothing style throughout the year. I don't really post in the summer because I'm just wearing shorts and shorts and
matt: Yeah, because it's 9,000 degrees outside.
Evan: Right. But even then, i'm i'm wearing a lot of, like, you know, 60s, 50s tiki rayon shirts and stuff.
Conor Fowler: That's good.
Evan: It just doesn't, you know, it doesn't make the the grid or whatever. um And then, yeah, someone, one of my friends said i remind them of, like, a retiree in Florida in the summer and then, like, college professor in the in the winter.
matt: Right.
Evan: Yeah,
matt: you
Conor Fowler: that's good
matt: The only difference is you're not wearing a ta of but yeah Tommy Bahama shirt.
Evan: yeah right, right, you're right, right.
matt: like You're wearing cool shit, even if it kind of looks like the the shit that is that these brands mimic.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah. Yeah. um I think the ah the other, OK, so we're coming up. I plan outfits pretty far in advance. We're coming up into the holiday season. Every holiday season, I just absolutely love tartan. I'm sure it's just like some holdover from my childhood and you know having these like tartan ties or whatever that my my mother would dress me in.
Evan: um But yeah, so looking at like really old paintings of people wearing tartan, I think it's really interesting. In particular, what I think is really interesting about it is the way that they're wearing like multiple tartans at once.
Evan: right And they're like clashing.
Conor Fowler: Yes.
Evan: i just love that. So that that's something I do around the holidays. right i'm going to have like one tartan like trouser and a jacket and a tie and probably like a fair isle sweater on there. So it's just like pattern maximalism.
Evan: um And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. like I have you know some theories about like what makes it work and what doesn't. but
Conor Fowler: Let's hear it. Because I'm curious, because I have some theories as well, but I would like to hear your theories.
Evan: Yeah, I mean, like the the really easy thing is like they can't be the same size.
Conor Fowler: Yes.
Evan: right um And they can't even be too close to the same size, so they have to be pretty dramatically different when it comes to size. um I think you can wear tartan jacket and tartan tie.
Evan: I hate the matchy-matchy same jacket, tartan, same tie.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, the cummerbund and the, yeah.
Evan: um You can mix them, um and they can maybe be the same size, although I think it looks better when one's bigger and one's smaller. But you can get away with a lot more if you're wearing a a sweater with a tie under it, because you just get like the little knot and maybe some of the some of the tie there.
Evan: So it's not enough to like really clash, and it's like broken up with the sweater. um Yeah, so those are like some general thoughts. I'll have to think about it more when I start like laying out the 12 Days of Christmas bits or whatever. Yeah.
matt: So i feel like that transitions well into this, but you were almost peerless in your dedication to your FitPic. Like I was looking at your your grid a few days ago and I was like, literally every picture or like the first picture looks, you know, it's the same background, the same like pose, which I think is phenomenal.
Evan: Yeah,
matt: Like it's, you know, it's a really cool way to like, you know, kind of, I don't know, showcase just how dedicated you are, but like, do you have a philosophy about it?
Evan: yeah thanks.
matt: Did...
Evan: Yeah, right. um So for me, it's it's about balancing something like consistency but also creativity.
matt: Okay.
Evan: right so
matt: Seems to be a ah general theme in this show interview.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: Yeah, right. So consistency, right? Like it's almost, as you point out, it's almost always the same location. um Not always, but almost always this sort of like brick wall with weeds growing up ah in my backyard.
Evan: um The post format is almost exactly the same. right It's like the sort of closer view and then the lapel of the jacket, if there's a jacket, and then the tie.
matt: Right. Right.
Evan: um And then like the last slide is going to be like the whole outfit. um The same sunglasses, right except there's a few photos where i don't have sunglasses. um So the consistency is important to me, i think, because it you know once you have like the full effect or whatever, the there's like the the emphasis should be on the clothing.
Conor Fowler: Where are the sunglasses?
matt: right
matt: right
Evan: right Or if there's like an interesting caption, which there isn't always, but if there's an interesting caption, the interesting caption rather than like the cool shit in the background. um So, okay, that's like some of the consistency.
Evan: It's also, i think, easier for me to like not have to try to find you know cool new backgrounds all the time or whatever.
matt: Right. I mean, the brick the brick wall is phenomenal.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: Okay, yeah.
matt: it A brick wall never doesn't look good in the phone.
Evan: Yeah, I like how you sometimes they'll like line up perfectly, right? And it just looks like three of me standing next to one another.
matt: Right.
Evan: um But yeah. ah Yeah, and then creativity, right? So my goal, right, is not to repeat combinations.
matt: Right.
Evan: um but Given like the sheer number, i think it's really unlikely that any particular combination I land on, even if it looks good, is going to be like the best possible combination.
matt: Right.
Evan: Right? um So I'm always trying to like experiment with new combinations. Also, like I said, um like what i really enjoy about getting dressed is creativity.
Evan: right So if I'm like repeating outfits, I'm depriving myself of like this opportunity to be creative. right Perhaps one of the only like opportunities I'm going have that day.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: great So yeah, I just want to start the day off ah doing something that I enjoy, something that i love, and you know that's getting dressed. And thank God, right, because I have to do it every day.
matt: Right, right. Yeah, so that's the the peril of being a human being is you have to get dressed every day. ah Wait, just out of curiosity, to do the sunglasses, like, is there a particular reason you're always wearing sunglasses?
Evan: there's There's a practical reason. um
matt: Other than the fact that it's sunny, you know.
Evan: Yeah, right. The practical reason is that it's sunny. That's about it.
matt: Okay, gotcha.
Evan: um Also, I did it for a while, and then I'm like, well, I can't stop doing it now. It's like the same reason it's the brick wall.
matt: Right, right.
Evan: I could have chosen a different brick wall, but you know that's the brick wall I chose, so that's the one I have to be going with.
matt: I respect it.
Conor Fowler: I don't like the kids to see my eyes the morning.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: Yeah, I make the world's worst like ah deer in headlights eyes in any photo that I've ever taken.
Evan: Right, right. Yeah.
matt: So I prefer like either a shadow on my you know above my glasses or sunglasses or something like that.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah. i I think also I have this like school picture day smile in all these, like this very aggressive. And like my eyes will get really squinty, and it just looks, you know I think the sunglasses kind of get rid of that.
Evan: Also, it you know when I do take photos, I seem to always like blink sort of halfway through.
Conor Fowler: They make almost everyone look better.
matt: right
Evan: um So you know I don't have to worry about whether my eyes are open or or anything like that. So yeah.
matt: yeah totally totally yeah yeah i gotta say you've given us i i think maybe the the most number of quotes in this show that we've ever had like there's on on our on our google
Conor Fowler: Practical.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: Did I talk the most?
Conor Fowler: Matt and I have been they batting, beating the shit out of the keyboard here,
Evan: but
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Evan: Oh, oh, you're okay, you're typing things.
matt: Yeah, just like like things that you say that like we put in quotation marks in our notes.
Evan: yeah
Evan: I see.
matt: You know, it's been, yeah, it's been it's been really...
Conor Fowler: Like for but um but these episode titles, just like for copy whatever.
Evan: Okay. Cool.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: yeah yeah, it's great.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: It's great.
Conor Fowler: This has been awesome. So to round it out, ah I have a question that is a little bit about me, of course.
Evan: Okay. Yeah, no. Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: So I have a large collection of American political memorabilia with a special emphasis on criminals and scoundrels. I bought another JFK thing, like a bath mat. My girlfriend asked me, when does the collection end?
Conor Fowler: And I think you'll agree with me, it never ends. So what started it? I mean, what's the first thing that you bought? Then when you saw it, oh my God, I'm having a collection of this now. I guess it must been have been the second thing.
Evan: Yeah. um So think I think I was probably primed to do this from like a very early age.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Evan: but you know Possibly there's like some genetic component, I guess.
Conor Fowler: Did you go to private school?
Evan: I did, actually. um My parents sent me to a place called Calvary Baptist Christian Academy.
matt: Oh, wow.
Conor Fowler: Jesus Christ. ah You're one of them.
matt: All right.
Conor Fowler: I should have known. That's awesome, dude.
Evan: um This isn't what I was referring to, but it is I guess, part of the story. So ah my grandparents collected, I guess is the the polite term for it, a lot of things. um No particular thing ah that they collected, just a lot.
Evan: um And then my parents are like antiquers and resellers, they, you know furniture and, you knickknacks and, you know, the tools, this sort of stuff. So I grew up like going to auctions and seeing all this like cool old stuff.
Evan: um And at the time, I don't think I like realized how cool it was, but you know, i was constantly around it. um Then you know I got to to to private school and there were restrictions on what I could wear. couldn't wear jeans.
Evan: I had to wear a collared shirt. um So I got used to like dressing you know with a tucked in shirt and yeah trousers and all this. um And you know I started playing around with like making it my own. I'd wear ties or jackets or whatever, right whereas everyone else was was not doing this.
Evan: And I found that I really enjoyed it. um Around this time, I guess the the sort of thing that seemed big to me, although I don't know if it actually was, and I don't know exactly what was attractive to me about it, was sort of like J. Crew, Ralph Lauren, you know, this sort of stuff. I remember like actually looking at the J Press website at the time, which, believe it or not, was even worse than it is now.
matt: Oh, wow. that's That's fucking saying something.
Evan: No, it's gotten better. It's gotten better. um But yeah. ah uh and you know trying to like i remember looking at this stuff in like feeling that i sort of had an idea of what was going on and i would like try to do it on my own with like the the materials that i had um anyway i i don't know that it was like terribly successful but anyway i was trying um
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: So I think the other sort of thing that I'm, well, anyway, so, okay, ah there's all this, right? um Then, ah you know, I'd go to like thrift stores or whatever when I got to grad school and finally had like a real, you know, and don't want to say substantial, but, you know, a a regular paycheck, right? Rather than just like summer work or like working on campus or whatever.
Evan: um go to thrift stores, vintage shops, these sorts of things, and like collect some things. But you know there wasn't always you know there wasn't always something there. um And then my friend, Scott, another philosopher, introduced me to eBay when he was wearing a of Madras jacket. And I just told him how much I loved it. And it was so great because I you know i knew what it was. He's like, oh, yeah, well, there's all this stuff on eBay.
Evan: And then this was... God, sometime in grad school. I don't really remember when now. But it's it's just been like a terrible addiction ever since, I guess. um
matt: There are a worse addictions.
Conor Fowler: that yeah.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: There are worse addictions.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Evan: Oh, OK, yes. Yeah. um But yeah. i So the the first one I bought, um it is this sort of like dark pink and blue and dark yellow mattress jacket.
Evan: um
Evan: It's somewhere on the on the Instagram. And I just loved it. I thought it was so cool. It had a wide lapel. um It was so neat to see that it was like actually from a place, right? Because yeah you you mentioned the sort of like individual logo or labels and stuff.
Evan: And I just sort of like got hooked on this idea that like these things come from somewhere in some time. Someone wore it and maybe had like really great times in it.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, all that stuff.
Evan: i just
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Evan: Yeah, this is like one of the real pleasures of like looking through this stuff, even if you don't buy it. right Just like seeing this thing and knowing that someone chose this, they loved it, and they had you know hopefully good times in it.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. It's alive.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Evan: um So yeah, I and don't feel bad for your partner. with all your political memorabilia. I will say, though, that there's no shortage of scoundrels in American political life.
Evan: So, yeah, your collection will definitely not end.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. whats
matt: to To be fair, I have like ah have three things that I've been sitting on for Connor that I will send him eventually.
Evan: true
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Practically anyone.
matt: it just, you know.
Evan: Yeah. i have I have one I'll show you a picture of. It's a tie I'll never, ever wear ah from Chip.
Conor Fowler: Oh, tell me about it.
Evan: um But I don't know if it's like... I don't know when it was made. It's from Chip. It's the flags of Southern states.
Conor Fowler: ah
Evan: And maybe also the stars and bars.
Conor Fowler: Oh,
matt: Oh! Of course, of course.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I got one.
Evan: um So anyway, I bought it when I saw it because it was like $5 or whatever.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Evan: ah But would never wear it. And i you know i don't even I can't believe I'm telling you. Anyway, I have this you know cursed tie. um
Conor Fowler: Do you saw my Raytheon tie, right? Which I feel like yeah I did not know that it was real.
Evan: Yeah, yeah yeah that one that one's even wilder. But it's still cool!
Conor Fowler: But like, what is so disturbing is that they are like scale representations of missiles that they make.
Evan: Yeah, wow.
Conor Fowler: Just amazing.
Evan: Do you think it was like an office Christmas party gift or something? Yeah, just really odd.
matt: It's got to be.
Conor Fowler: Something like that. Yeah.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Everybody got one for a year.
Evan: yeah just really odd
matt: do you have
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Do you have a favorite chip tie? Because i like I fucking love chip ties. I've worked with them, you know, years ago.
Evan: Yeah, that's tough. um
Evan: I'm going to the thing that parents do and say that I love them all equally.
matt: i got you.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
matt: i got you.
Evan: I think some are like more interesting than others in that they're like, ah you know many of them are like in very bad taste or you know kind of bad taste.
matt: that...
matt: Right, of course. Yeah.
Evan: so
matt: do you Do you have the Santa mooning tie that they've been...
Evan: Yeah, I have the one where he's peeing down the chimney.
matt: Okay.
matt: Those are some of my fucking favorites.
Evan: i have one where he's flipping you off. um Yeah, just ah just some some wild ones. There's one another one i don't even know when I would ever wear it.
Evan: It's a ah guy with a cat on his head. You can you know try to figure out what the pun there is. There's one with like...
matt: Yes, yes. Ha ha ha ha ha.
Evan: there's one with ah like ah two frogs on like a lily pad and it's Y-P-O-M, your pad or mine. would never wear this one to teach.
matt: Right, yeah, yeah.
Evan: ah
matt: Maybe a night out, you know.
Evan: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: Yeah.
Evan: ah But, you know, the the colors in are just so good. I will have to wear at some point.
matt: Right, right. Yeah.
Evan: But yeah, they're just like these weird, i but they're fun to collect because they're just so some of them.
matt: Yeah, there's they're so bizarre. I think the the Fuck You one that they've been making since the dawn of time is is one that I've always wanted and somehow just never bought.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: i don't know why.
Evan: Really? Oh, well, I'll keep an eye out.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Evan: Yeah. um Because I see those ones come up fairly often.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Evan: I have one in like Burgundy, I think. No? Yeah.
matt: Anyway, Evan, man, this has been super fucking fun.
Evan: Yeah, no.
matt: And yeah, very clothing heavy, but also with the connotations of clothing heavy, which is kind of what we're about.
Evan: Mm-hmm.
matt: So thank you.
Evan: Yeah, no, I'm really happy that I finally got to meet you. I can't tell you how many hours I've listened to both of you. Although if I didn't play it at double speed, it would be quite the waiting hour.
matt: Right, it would be more hours.
Evan: Sorry. I'd call back to the beginning before we started.
matt: Yeah, and I got to say, shout out for that tip because now I'm going to have to, I just switched to Apple Music and Podcasts a few months ago and haven't figured out how to do the the faster speed yet.
Evan: Yeah.
Evan: Ah, OK, yeah.
matt: So maybe maybe I'll look into that.
Evan: Yeah, cool.
matt: But anyway, yes, thank you.
Conor Fowler: Matt, I'll tell you how to do it when we get off the air.
matt: Thank you.
Evan: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: have
matt: um Anyway, Evan, dude, thank you again for coming on. Shout out your account, you know, whatever you would like to just kind of round us out.
Evan: Oh, um I think it's at Evan Thomas Woods. um Just one word. um Yeah. ah Anyway, yeah, follow me or don't. um
matt: You should, you should follow.
Evan: Again, because you know this is all about go to hell, right?
Conor Fowler: Nah,
Evan: I'm just being myself. You can you can you don't have to. ah But yeah, anyway, I enjoy interacting with people, although I'm terrible at it, as Connor can attest.
matt: Yeah.
Evan: um But anyway, yeah, so you know drop me a line, whatever.
Conor Fowler: we won't let you get that. you've been ah You've been very charming and you've handled all of the questions admirably, none of which were written by ChatGPT.
Evan: i mean thank
matt: Yeah. yeah Yeah, yeah, we we didn't we will never use AI on this program, thank you.
Evan: Excellent. Yeah. No, I think i think that's the... ah Yeah, we we just have to like build those sort of like attitudes into ourselves, right? Even though i kind of feel like we're yelling at the tide, telling it to go back, but, you
Conor Fowler: Oh yeah, baby.
matt: Yeah, well, if the when the bubble burst, we're gonna we're gonna be on the right side of history and be like, yeah, we told you so, motherfuckers, so.
Conor Fowler: and that's so true.
Evan: know. Yeah, and we'll still have skills, right?
Conor Fowler: for those fans of the show, we will have AI summaries ready for you as soon as we publish in this episode. That's right.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: ah
Conor Fowler: ah machine will have to listen to us instead. Even worse.
matt: ah Anyway, um everyone, thank you for listening. ah We are apocalypsestuds at gmail.com. If you want to send us something, ah send us a fuck AI meme.
matt: Come on.
Conor Fowler: yeah Yeah, send us, please.
matt: Just something.
Evan: Yeah.
matt: I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues.
Conor Fowler: And I am Connor Flower at Connor Flower.
matt: and we will see you next week.
