Transcript
Conor Fowler: Welcome. ah Welcome, everyone. This evening, we bring a very, very special guest, friend of the program, devilishly dashing, dynamic debonair, and never dapper, Darren Johnston, who just is I don't know, like probably one of the best Instagram pages on the internet.
Conor Fowler: I mean, very, very, very, ah like I, that word aspiration was annoying to me.
matt: ah Agreed. Agreed.
Darren: Thank you.
Conor Fowler: ah just like curatorial.
Darren: ah ah
matt: Yeah, the your archiving of ah publications and things, Darren, is fucking unrivaled. Especially...
Conor Fowler: Well, yeah, who else is doing that even?
matt: Yeah, like in this, like in the the vintage, you know, workwear, Americana, for lack of a better word, space, like it's it's done more. But I feel like very few people these days are doing anything for like, you know, tailored clothing, hashtag menswear, or whatever the fuck you want to call it at this point.
matt: So, yeah, thank you for the work that you do.
Darren: ah Thank you.
Conor Fowler: Well, and there's an element of forecasting too, like which I think is like, man, that's that is that is needed because there is a lot of ah there's a lot of bad advice out there, I think, or a lot of advice that I wouldn't give, and not that my advice should be taken, you know?
matt: yeah totally, totally.
matt: that
matt: yeah
matt: so So this isn't this isn't anything that we thought of for this interview prior, um but the thought that I just had, ah because Connor did mention forecasting, like, Darren, you're you know you're an aficionado, you're
Darren: Hmm.
matt: a historian of sorts of like the space that, you know, that we're all, or this like weird pocket of the fashion world that we're all a part of. Like, do you, do you, you know, kind of see um just from your, you know, you're digging through old stuff, like the actual kind of like cyclical nature of trends and and things that are cool?
Darren: That's a good question. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so much recycling going on in terms of menswear today, you know, ah just bringing back like, that's why I started like really digging into like some of the old GQs and some of the old yearbooks, because a lot of the stuff that people are just going gaga about is just recycling the same stuff that, you know, mens menswear has been, you know, doing for for decades.
Darren: I mean, there's,
matt: Right. Right.
Darren: Yeah, i mean, and it's cool, but at the same time, you know, it's it's without the proper context, right? Because you're just recycling and you're just sort of like imitating like some of these modes that you've seen already. But you' there's no context to go along with it. Right. You're just pulling out the pleated pants because you think that's that's the cool thing. That's the next thing.
matt: right
Darren: But, you know. Delving into why these guys were wearing the stuff to begin with is probably far more interesting than just trying to just take it and just imitate it, you know, in mass without having disrupt this point of rest reference or point of view.
Darren: You know, these guys didn't wear pleated pants because they were trying to get a fit off. They wore it because it was part of who they were, you know
matt: Right.
Darren: they They wore it because it was comfortable. It made sense in their daily lives. um And it spoke to them. You know, there was some kind of precedent for it. Instead of just adopting a trend, you know, just because it's a trend, you know, they they had an impetus for it, a reason for it, you know.
Conor Fowler: It was military, right? I mean, it was like...
Darren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of like adopting a uniform, Connor. I mean, in a lot of ways, you know, you take it, you make it part of who you are. Right. And after a while, what happens is or what should happen to me is that the the guy sort of like the closer fade back a little bit and the guy comes forth or the man or whoever comes forth.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, sure.
Darren: ah clothes anymore. You're seeing the guy who happens to be wearing these particular set of garments. And then that's how think your style sort of like manifests itself. It's not like, you know, you you take a bunch of stuff and throw it up in there and you put it on. I mean, a lot of guys can do that, but it's more predicated on the clothes speaking to who the person is, their circumstance in life, their age, and all these kinds of things sort of mesh together.
Darren: And that makes, to me, true style. Not, you know, just grabbing a bunch of shit, excuse my language. So, you know, Right.
matt: No, no, no.
Conor Fowler: we won' We won't be doing any editing ah since there's a lot of censorship happening.
matt: I mean, like...
Conor Fowler: We are not a part of it.
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: yeah
matt: Right. Yeah, like, something I think a lot about, you know, in both what I wear and what I'm into is, like, the utility functions of it.
Darren: Right.
Darren: Mm-hmm.
matt: Like, it's got a you know, I have probably said that I destroy every garment that I own. And, like, I don't see that as a bad thing. That means that, like, I wear my fucking clothes. There's nothing that I own that, like, doesn't actually get worn. Unless it's too small and I haven't gotten rid of it yet.
matt: But, you know, like, what you're saying kind of plays into that, too. Like, it what makes sense for the wearer is why they pick the clothes they do.
Darren: Right, right. They pick it for a utility, Matt. That's a good point, too. I mean, that's a beautiful thing when they when the clothes wear into the point where, you know, these little... idiosyncrasies and rips and tears become part of the garment because then it becomes uniquely yours, you know?
matt: Yeah.
Darren: And that's sort of why i like I'm starting to wear like a lot of like spoke stuff. Like if I can find it, like this is a bespoke jacket that I'm wearing from like Henry in England.
matt: Oh,
Conor Fowler: Oh, yeah.
matt: hell yeah.
Darren: And it's really, I mean, this thing is, like, you would think, like, English tailoring is really, like, stiff. This thing is so soft, and it becomes more, like, broken in and more, like, comfortable the more you wear this thing.
Darren: And also, it's got some rip it's got some rips in here, too. Like, the sleeve is fucking coming out, and, I mean, it's torn in here. I
Conor Fowler: oh yeah Hell yeah.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: See, i'm I'm not alone in this.
Darren: yeah
matt: No, no. I back it. I back it.
Darren: ah I'm not probably not going to fix it anytime soon. I'm just going to keep wearing it until have to fix the sleeve, you know?
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I just have such a, I just worry. I'm just like, it's gonna it's going to fall apart, so you have to fix it
Darren: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: but I feel like you probably don't.
Darren: Right.
Conor Fowler: I wanted to discuss what we were talking about before we started recording, which was like the, the seasonal confusion of dressing, like, which I think is such a big deal and really is universal.
Darren: right
Conor Fowler: Like, of course it's like a trope, right? Like, do I need a rain jacket? You don't wear the rain jacket. You are in a rainstorm, right? Like whatever.
Conor Fowler: it's annoying and you never quite get it right.
Darren: Right, right. I mean, it's it has to, again, it might play into utility a bit. And also, like, what what do you like?
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Darren: Do you like to wear coats? If you don't like to wear coats, if you don't like to wear coats, you can actually have, you know, you have options. You can wear a short coat.
Conor Fowler: Who doesn't like to wear coats?
Darren: Yeah, but I like to wear coats. I like traditional clothes. Yeah. Traditional sort of like modes of dress. So i I like that. So I'll throw on a light unlined raincoat, you know, with the zip out lining. I'll throw that on or whatever.
Darren: um I probably wouldn't wear a linen jacket until
Darren: maybe May or June. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: But it's so arbitrary.
Darren: yeah Yeah, I know you do it, Connor.
Conor Fowler: It's so arbitrary. It's like,
Darren: And it looks great.
Conor Fowler: ah listen, listen, I think it's time. I mean, it's time right now because it's fucking hot.
Darren: Yeah, like if it's 70, and I was telling Matt, if it's 70 or 65, 68 degrees, and you have like a heavier linen garment, of course, throw it on, of course.
Conor Fowler: Well, what am I going to do?
Darren: You know.
Conor Fowler: Freeze to death?
Darren: No, not.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: and
Conor Fowler: I don't know. I mean, it's kind of like, uh, it's like the, it's like the white after labor day thing.
Darren: but
Darren: Yeah, yeah, it's all arbitrary.
Conor Fowler: People decided this a long time ago.
Darren: Throw it Yeah, yeah. It's not a hard and fast rule ah at any – it's just me and my particular, like, old school hangups.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Darren: Like, okay, I'm going to wait until blah, blah, blah, and then I'm going to put this this thing on or I'm going to wear this or I'm going to ease into, you know, these seasons and stuff, you
Conor Fowler: Well, where does this, where does this come from? i mean, like, where do you, uh, where do you think that these like rules, I guess.
Darren: high level rules come from? Probably, like I don't know, i I think because I'm kind of anal in a lot of ways.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: You know, my girl recently moved in and we were we had the biggest problem because she wouldn't like arrange things the way that I would, you know, have them before she got there, right?
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us all this time.
Darren: yeah She'd get up off the couch. It wouldn't fold like the blanket back, you know, because I have blankets on the couch, you know, in case it gets cold. She wouldn't fold it back the way I said, no, it's a twofold. And then you fold it over like this and you put it over eat like this, you know, it's really, really um a bit of control freak probably in a lot of ways, man.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Darren: And that, yeah. And again, those rules are, You know, just arbitrary. You know, it's up to the individual. It's up to the weather. And, um yeah, if it makes.
Conor Fowler: Well, I mean, like when you were growing up, was there someone telling you like, and you can't wear linen before June?
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: You know, like, because I feel like that that is that is like the way that people talk about some of these kind of things, right? It's like, this is codified. This is forever, right?
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: Yeah, it was probably, well, my dad a bit, you know, he wouldn't. Matter of fact, I don't think he owned a linen garment at all. He would wear like a lot of lightweight wools and Brooks Brothers Oxfords.
matt: Go dad.
Darren: And he would.
Conor Fowler: Because linen is kind of like, and people are not people were not wearing that ah in that way, certainly.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: Go dad.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: Yeah, I'm going to go on the record that um and that unless it's a blend, I really just don't like wearing linen.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: Like, I'll take a wool silk linen blend or like a linen cotton or something all day long. But a straight up linen garment, I just i don't find it anywhere remotely cooler than lightweight cotton or ah like a ah tropical wool.
Darren: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: I think it's about the, it's about the like,
Darren: yeah
Darren: The Nosh Maltz. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: yeah, it's about the wrinkling. Really. It's about the like, um,
matt: Yeah, but I don't iron shit anyway, so everything I own is rank-only.
Conor Fowler: yeah. Well,
Darren: That's the best way to do it, man.
Conor Fowler: ah
Darren: But yeah, I mean, it depends. I mean, on what kind of blend you get, you know, what kind of weight. You know, that linen.
Conor Fowler: That's Chris's thing right now, right?
Darren: Hmm.
Conor Fowler: The made to wrinkle?
Darren: Oh, yeah. That's Ralph.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, no. ah Our um guest Chris recently launched this thing too with Substack um about that. I guess it's like, has like a sort of selling point of ah certain clothing.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Darren: Mm-hmm.
matt: Ralph definitely had a guaranteed to wrinkle, like the guaranteed to bleed Madras tag back in the day.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Right, right, right. No, and that's featured. I mean, that's featured in the first post.
matt: Hell yeah.
Darren: Oh, cool. That's so cool. But yeah, I mean, again, a circumstance, right? Because you can't, I don't know. I mean, if you're going to see your accountant and he shows up in some baggy linen suit, right?
Darren: And, you know, are you going to really, are you going have the same reaction? Are you going to feel, you know, because linen is just inherently casual, right?
matt: Yeah, totally.
Darren: You know feels like so, so loush and so laid back. You know, I work at a 150 year old institution and where I, when I wear linen in here, I mean, every, or seersucker, everybody was like, what the hell? They, don't say it.
Darren: Look, they're like, what are you doing?
Conor Fowler: well it's i mean it's a it's a class thing right it's like who would wear linen working in like the coal mines
Darren: Yeah.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: You know, it doesn't, i it doesn't exactly float in that way.
Darren: ah
Conor Fowler: Like, and I feel to a certain extent, like linen tailoring, I'm kind of talking out of my ass, but like linen tailoring is ah product of imperialism.
Darren: Totally.
Conor Fowler: You know, like how did exactly we come by these ah super tailored linen garments, right? I would imagine that a colonizer was sweating too much.
matt: Thank you.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: You know, it seems... It's like the gin and tonic, like, they made because of the quinine tasting bad. Like, they just put gin into it.
Darren: who
Conor Fowler: so Ingenuity, the mother of invention, whatever.
Darren: Exactly. Yeah. A lot of those modes of dress are from certain questionable origins. Right. And we sort of divorce them from those. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Well, like, the Gurkha short, right?
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: Like, even that, it's like...
matt: Oh, yeah.
Conor Fowler: You know, not like you shouldn't wear it, but it still is like to go back to before. I mean, it's about acknowledging the context of what you are doing, which sir certainly people do not always do.
Darren: Which it was. Yeah. yeah
Darren: Right. I mean, you have to understand not only how to put clothes together, but what gave the impetus for the creation of that particular garment. Or you should, in my, because that'll help you dress even better, right? Because then you can subvert or really, like, embrace those those those clothes, right? So if you're wearing a seersucker suit and you're wearing the whole bow tie and the straw hat and the white bucks, I mean...
Darren: it look doesn't look like you anymore. It looks like, you know, ah Colonel...
matt: Colonel Sanders. to
Conor Fowler: Yeah, yeah, you're wearing a costume.
Darren: What?
Conor Fowler: I was 20 and I was arrested in New Orleans wearing a seersucker suit.
Darren: what
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I have the mugshot even um on my computer saved as hell.jpg, which is me and my friend Leon in the Orleans Parish ah like drunk tank, basically.
Conor Fowler: it was 20 again.
Darren: Dude, totally send that to me so I can see. that
Conor Fowler: I will. Yeah, we can post it. I mean, it's like, why? i don't think I was wearing a straw hat.
Darren: But you have
Conor Fowler: But if I had access to one, I would have been.
Darren: to.
matt: no one No one should be wearing a straw hat, please.
Darren: That.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, no, that's, that's, that is a sign of something.
Darren: Again, other loaded thing.
Conor Fowler: I don't know exactly what it is. feel like there's a picture of Bob Dole wearing a, wearing a straw hat like that, you know, like one of those electioneering type hats.
Darren: Yeah.
Darren: Yeah. I mean, those straw boaters are like, I only know one guy, a friend of mine who can really pull that off and look, not look like he's wearing a costume, but um yeah, everybody else should probably see it.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Darren: Like this drinking a mint julep on the veranda, you know,
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Yeah, there's a couple of famous pictures that I think Elliot Landy took of Bob Dylan wearing a boater hat, but he's also wearing flip-flops or no shoes and chinos and a you know ah a casual button-down shirt, so I'll forgive that one.
Darren: Dude, i totally get I totally know which picture you're talking about. This is that visual usual a reference thing you were you we were talking about.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Darren: That's after, I think, he has this motorcycle accident. And then he goes to his little farm.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: And then he sort of of, like, I think he started to you know recreate himself for the 15th time or whatever it was. and he
matt: Right. Yeah. that That's around.
Darren: ah
matt: I want to say that's around the time that he and the band got together for the basement tapes.
Darren: yeah Yeah, the band had started Basement Tapes. I think that's around the time. But, yeah, he looks totally natural. All right. Because now he's not even he's wearing the straw hat and he's wearing like a white shirt and he's wearing some slim cotton pants or something and flip flops.
Darren: And it looks so, so cool.
matt: Yep.
Darren: Right.
matt: sort the The type of cool that if I tried to wear that you know at any point in my life, I would feel like a total goober.
Darren: Right.
Conor Fowler: It's very hard to it's very hard to look cool in flip-flops. I've owned one pair of flip-flops in my entire life.
matt: Yeah, I am anti-flip-lop slash sandal for myself. so
Darren: Yeah, me too.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, it was al Pacino Scarface flip-flops that I got in the Ocean City, Maryland, what?
Darren: I'm totally...
matt: this is I'm pretty sure this is not the first time you've mentioned those flip-lops.
Conor Fowler: No, I'm sure.
matt: yeah
Conor Fowler: now I have a picture of those, too.
matt: probably not not even the fourth time that you've mentioned this.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, because they're like, who would ever create such a thing? like yeah Intellectual property aside, like what is the even the point? There's a man with a gun on the flip-flop.
Darren: yeah I had a bad experience in a pair of flip-flops. Oh, my gosh. I went to Brazil. And I had the flip-flops on. And we were staying at somebody's house, right? And I um was walking. And then it was like this incline or step up, right? And I flip-flop caught part of my my heel or something. Oh, my gosh. I think I tore something in my foot as a result of that. It was months before I was better.
Darren: And after that, no more flip-flops.
matt: Yeah, yeah. Fuck that shit.
Darren: ah
Conor Fowler: Yeah, you definitely don't want to injure yourself because you're wearing flip-flops. That's like...
Darren: Yeah, no, not at all.
matt: Yeah. Well, aside from the animus against flip-flops, which I think all three of us have, um New Year, we're, you know, two and a half months in.
matt: ah Darren, what is your opinion on the state of menswear that we're currently embodying?
Darren: Oh.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Darren: Wow, wow. Well, i I think what's happening is there is this very, very clear delineation happening now in menswear.
Darren: um There's these high level influencers who are trying to tell people but what to wear, what to dress and how to go about doing things. And they have these silly little videos like telling turning, like putting on a belt with a jacket and making it short or some kind of craziness I saw the other day.
Darren: And then you have the more informed and more knowledgeable menswear, um, crowd who really have been with it for a long time, like, you know, 15, 20 years or something.
Darren: And they're really like sort of leading, leading the pack and sort of directing and moving it forward a bit. I mean, what I don't like is the crash personalization and the monetization of a lot of, you know, accounts who are like, okay, if you follow me, you'll get 50% off on proper cloth or whatever.
Darren: I mean,
matt: ah Right, right.
Darren: I mean, why? We all know what proper cloth is. We can go there ourselves and they'll probably get the same discount. I mean, it's not not not that I have anything against it. I just feel like, I don't know, sometimes a little disingenuous.
Darren: I mean, you don't have
Conor Fowler: It's like Joseph A.
matt: Totally. Totally.
Conor Fowler: Bank marketing type.
Darren: Yeah, yeah.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Darren: Yes.
matt: I mean, I think Derek has written about this and how like fashion writers, you know, at least mainstream fashion writers, um it almost seems like they're in on the take in a little bit ah more of a way than they once were.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: Right.
matt: And like, I don't know.
Conor Fowler: For sure.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: It seems like almost, it seems almost completely transparent.
matt: Yeah,
Conor Fowler: Like you should buy this shit because like, I am going to somehow make, uh, whatever off of it.
matt: yeah yeah definitely. Definitely.
matt: Which, like, you know, it in certain ways, um yeah not not the writers particularly, but, like, my friends' brands that get covered and, you know, it bumps their sales.
Darren: may
Conor Fowler: you
Darren: right
matt: Like, I'm stoked about that in a GQ or Esquire or whatever. But, like, the the writers themselves doing a lot of the stuff, especially for, like, bigger brands.
matt: Yeah, like, disingenuous is a perfect word for it.
Darren: Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, if you have a brand like your friend and you're trying to that and it's an obvious thing that, hey, I'm here to sell stuff. Well, you know, and then but, you know, and then you have other guys say, hey, blah, blah, blah. And by the way, I'm supporting or they're tagging brands in their in their feed. And it's obvious that, you know, they're getting something for it.
Darren: So it's like I don't want to be i don't want to be. Led by the nose. I come on Instagram sort of like to meet guys like you and just hang out and, you know, talk about the silly kind of silly, you know, hobby that we're all into.
matt: 100% Right. Yeah, yeah.
Darren: but But I don't want to be, you know, there's there's enough commercialization, our daily lives, right? We're inundated with this thing all day. You know, I can't even talk about, you know, a particular song and have my phone off.
Darren: And then when I go to YouTube, the damn song is right there. You know, they're trying to bombard me and tell me what to think and what to do.
matt: right
Darren: You know, come on, you know, the gram and just have a good time, you know?
matt: yeah yeah
Conor Fowler: I just don't want to be pitched all the time.
Darren: but yeah
matt: yeah Also, i don't know about y'all, but I get ads for the worst looking shit I've ever seen in my fucking life all the time.
Darren: Right.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Like clothing related all the time. Like i have no idea. Maybe I clicked on something or or like, you know, thought something was really funny and wanted to look at their profile.
matt: And then I get a million ads for it. Like, yo, I'm just doing this to fucking laugh. Like, I don't want to see more of this shit.
Darren: Right. Right. I don't want to see that. Like if I do have something to sell and Connor knows this, you know, Hey, I'm either going to give it, I'm going to give it away to you or I'll, um you know, I'll sell it for a very cheap price and I'll be like, I wanted to go somewhere to someone who will appreciate and not the landfill.
matt: yeah
Darren: You know, I'm not going to say, you know, Hey, here's my, here's my Brooks Brothers Oxford. These are $65 and blah, blah, blah, blah. Or whatever. You know?
matt: Right, right. I mean, that's ah I sell old shit for my living.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: Like, that's what I do. But I have like i would never care to advertise and like do a sponsored post on Instagram. like I don't fault people in my realm that do, or like small brands, but...
matt: You know, there's just, there's, there's so much like wheat that you got to get out of the chaff in that respect.
Darren: Right. Right.
Darren: right Yeah, and I'm not hating on anybody who makes their living doing that, right? And what I'm I don't...
matt: Yeah, totally. Totally. But, you but, you know, it's like Instagram sadly and, and like a lot of online clothing world culture or whatever you want to call it. Like it's, it is way more, um,
matt: way more about making money, it seems, than, like, actually building connections with people that are into the same shit. And, like, that's why i use Instagram.
Darren: right
matt: i want to see i want to see stuff from people that I think are cool and, like, friends.
Darren: right yeah that's exactly why why i'm on there you know to exchange information to learn about you know what whoever's doing and you know to to build community because you don't when when you're into this this hobby and this thing man you don't really have a lot of it's not like i can go next door hey what do you think about this t tweet jack you know people going to
matt: Totally.
matt: right
Darren: great So you have to find a light community and that community is often dispersed over a wide area. So.
matt: Yeah, it's it's very much decentralized now compared to like even, you know, five or six years ago.
Darren: ah
Darren: Yeah, yeah, totally.
matt: like
Darren: Totally. So yeah, that that's my whole rationale. And that's that's where I think the state of menswear is pretty much. It's this weird stri striation between you know this big commercial band and then you have these smaller non-influencer people who are really the really sort of driving the whole thing forward in a way. And I'm not including myself, obviously, in this, but...
Darren: I think a lot of people who who don't have huge followings are much more interesting and much more stylish than, you know, a lot of people who have 300 or 500,000 followers. know what mean? Yeah.
matt: Right.
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: And that's sort of how it is, I guess. like That's like coolness, really. like To a certain extent, like the cooler you get, like the less cool you are.
Darren: yeah
matt: mr Just side note, can you guys, either of you, imagine having that many followers?
Darren: yeah
matt: like i get Like, I get stressed out having three unread messages. Like, I can't even imagine having that many followers that are legitimate, not paid for, you know, or whatever.
matt: And just, like, yeah, the amount of, like, interacting that i would have to do would just wear me the fuck out.
Conor Fowler: You'd have to hire someone, I think.
Darren: Yeah, yeah, it's like a full-time job, you know.
matt: Seriously.
Darren: I think I'm closing it for fourth hour.
Conor Fowler: And it feels like a fucking job already. Like,
Darren: Yeah. I have like 4,000, almost 4,000 followers now, 3,500 or something like that. And I'm starting to like, oh my gosh, how am I going to? And then, you know, if I don't follow back, sometimes I feel like, oh my gosh, I should be following.
matt: Yeah, yeah, I can't i can't do that.
Darren: it
matt: i will get overwhelmed with how many, like, random-ass people that I'm following.
Darren: Yeah. so um but
Darren: Right. You know, what I would.
matt: No offense to anyone if they follow me, but, yeah.
Darren: Yeah, I mean, if you, I can't follow everyone back, obviously, now, because I'm starting to feel, like, guilty about that, like I said, but I will answer your DMs and interact and do it.
matt: Yeah, totally, totally. i mean, that's part of that's part of what makes social media fun, is, like, the interaction.
Darren: Yeah, totally.
Conor Fowler: I think it's getting pretty like,
Darren: Totally.
Conor Fowler: a
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: like, I don't know. Like I was scrolling the Instagram feed yesterday, which I consciously thought like, I have not done this in a pretty long time.
Conor Fowler: And just a lot of ads, basically just a lot of ads, you know, and I'm sure
matt: Yeah. Lots of ads.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: like
Conor Fowler: we're never going back from this point. Like there will only ever be more ads, more intrusive ads.
matt: No, no.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: And like, that's just the way of the world.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: Yeah. When I get a when I get a, are you interested or not? Uh, prompt. I'm, I'm always so happy to hit not interested.
Darren: yeah
matt: Like, but i don't need to I don't need to see...
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: yeah
matt: i know what Don Dishliquid is. i don't need to see a fucking ad for Don Dishliquid.
Conor Fowler: Wow.
matt: good it's the It's the little things.
Conor Fowler: Dude, you gotta, it's the little things in life, ultimately. Wow. yeah
matt: It's the same as blocking every single ad I see on Twitter. like i get it I get a little hit of dopamine. you know the The most the minute hit of dopamine, but it's still fun every single time.
Darren: oh yeah.
Conor Fowler: wow
Darren: That's the... You know why? Because the choice your choice is being restored to you, right? Now you...
matt: Right, right, yeah.
Darren: out You know, but when you're constantly bombarded and you have no say so, right, it's sort of and whether you wanted to or not.
matt: Yeah.
matt: It's like, yeah, it's like every time you look at a news organization website and you've got 19 different pop-ups so you've got to block before you can read the fucking article.
Darren: Oh, my God.
matt: Yeah, it's it's got kind of like that. like that That is dystopian as fuck.
Darren: Oh, for sure. For sure, man.
Conor Fowler: We like don't really have any more of those, do we?
Darren: Yeah.
matt: if
Conor Fowler: I mean, the Washington Post doesn't really exist in a legitimate way anymore. And neither has the New York Times for a long time.
matt: Yeah, I guess I'm, I think I'm, I guess maybe it's, it's like smaller news organizations and like local stuff.
Conor Fowler: Like Ariana Huffington.
matt: Like the AJC, the Atlanta General Constitution, like anytime I want to read an article, if it's not behind a paywall, um it's like, oh cool.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Okay, get three, you know, three words into it. 16 pop-ups. All right, go fuck yourself.
Conor Fowler: yeah I mean, the one extant paper in Baltimore, the banner, they're paid all the way.
Darren: Right. Right.
Conor Fowler: Like, you can't really, like, read it at all.
matt: Oh, yeah.
Conor Fowler: And I don't, I mean, it makes sense because they're, like, a small outfit. Like, they're competing with the Baltimore Sun, which is, like, owned by ah right-wing billionaire.
matt: Right, right.
Darren: hey
matt: Yeah.
Darren: right
Conor Fowler: So it's, like, just dreadful.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: They're giving us no choice in a lot of ways, man. And if you really want to know what's going on, you, it's almost like you, you'll have to really seek it out and compartmentalize and take little bits of things to really find out the real story.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: Plus,
matt: I mean, honestly, that's part of the reason I'm still on Twitter. um ah You know, it's ah it's a way to connect with, like, people that aren't paid assholes that actually report news and various things.
Darren: Yeah, yeah, that's what that's what's good about it.
matt: Yeah. why Why should I leave when Elon's the one that sucks? I was here first. Fuck you. Yeah.
Darren: ye Don't get me started on him.
matt: Oh, I know. I know. We could do we should just do like a round table of trashing Elon for an episode. I think that'd be hell of fun and very cathartic for all of us.
Darren: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Listen, I'm trying to be I'm trying to be charged as a domestic terrorist. So I've been I've been waiting that moniker for a long time.
matt: Yeah, I
Darren: but
Conor Fowler: Local, I guess local domestic terrorist is a little ah redundant, but you know what I mean?
matt: got, I got
Darren: Yeah.
matt: I got it. Uh,
Darren: Yeah.
matt: um
Darren: Let
matt: Darren, what have you been shopping for lately? Any any cool pickups?
Darren: me see. What did I get lately? um I did find a suit from a bespoke maker in England, Fallon and Harvey, which I don't...
matt: Oh, nice.
Darren: this Yeah, it's a gray suit, gray pinstripe.
matt: nothing
Darren: Yeah. like a lighter gray. um And I think no belt loops that they can sell high-waisted. pleats either, which is weird, but um double vented. It's a really nice suit. I think I found it for 300 bucks.
Darren: this like
matt: Oh, that's sick. Yeah.
Darren: Yeah,
matt: right Are you on?
Darren: yeah
Conor Fowler: And you can got it on eBay.
matt: like
Darren: yeah that was the one one of the few times eBay has really started to build up some stuff. I can't find good stuff on eBay any longer. I mean, it's very rare.
Conor Fowler: I, yeah, I've been having a fucking terrible time.
matt: It's hard, man. It's really hard.
Conor Fowler: Like I haven't even been able to buy anything. What a crime.
Darren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's dried up completely. Can't find any vintage Brooks Brothers really any longer. Can't find any shirts, USA made shirts anymore.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: You know, so.
matt: It sounds like you're off.
Conor Fowler: It's bizarre.
matt: Are you on a Savile Row kick right now? and
Darren: Uh,
matt: Henry Bull and Fallon and Harvey mentions already.
Darren: Yeah, yeah. I'm on a Sour Roll kick only because of the Ivy stuff. It's sort of like, can't find it any longer.
matt: Right, right.
Darren: Can't find it. And it, you know, I like the Sour Roll stuff. It sort of like fits into the whole thing anyway, because Ivy is just Sour Roll English style's little brother anyway, right?
matt: Right. right
Darren: of like, you know, versus this English style. And then, you know, probably students went over and at some point and saw, you know, how, you know, those guys dressed, brought it back to America, the tweed jackets, the flannel pants and all that stuff.
Darren: And that's sort of how the whole thing started to develop probably back in the 20s, 1910s or whatever. um
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: But always been this
Conor Fowler: Well, the I mean, the Ivy League institutions are like copies of the.
Darren: of the British public but our school system or whatever they call it.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Oxford and what have you.
Darren: Yeah. Yeah. Cambridge and all those places. Yeah, totally. Totally. So not only did they still sort of copy those institutions, but also the Mojo dress that went along with those things, you know, so, which is interesting, but um yeah, so I've been on that for a while.
Darren: um Yeah. What was I going to say about the, I went to England recently and,
Conor Fowler: Sure.
matt: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. That's in the questions too.
Darren: That was a lot of fun. I really liked the English guys, sort of older English guys in particular over there, um like put their clothes together.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: Like it's very colorful. It's very kind of eccentric in a lot of ways, man. I saw some guys wearing some stuff that I would be, I was like, what the hell?
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Darren: You know?
matt: I feel like Dandy kind of like Dandy is still very much a thing for older English gentlemen.
Darren: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I want to get that guy Paul Stafford on the show, who is like a hair he's like a hair stylist, but he's like wearing 30s shit all the time. He's like really, in the way you describe, like eccentric and colorful.
Darren: Yeah, yeah. I sort of like that. So that's cool.
Conor Fowler: Me too. I mean, I think it's a very like, ah I don't know, like it's a very way, it's a good way of like disarming the whole style, you know, like to bring it down to earth, like I'm not taking myself too seriously.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: i don't want to like take away your rights. um um
Darren: Right. Right.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, and I think that's important.
Darren: It feels important. It feels more individual and not so regimented. Because that's the problem with, I think, Ivy now is that it's just this mode and it's just this thing. And we sort of forget that Ivy was a youth.
Darren: It was about rebellion. It wasn't about conformity.
matt: Right.
Darren: Right? These kids like, hey, I'm not going to dress like my dad. I'm gonna wear an Oxford shirt. going wear it on top. i'll wear with some jeans or, you know, some wheat jeans or some high-waisted whatever and da-da-da-da. I'm going to do my own thing.
Darren: You know? But then, of course, it got... codified or whatever and adopted. And then it became this, you know, thing that it is now, which is being embraced by the far right their like calling card, a lot of them.
Darren: But it didn't start out like that. It's if, you know, conservative thing, this is a act of rebellion from these kids.
matt: right
Darren: You know, and that would probably follow through from the 20s too. You know, they were wearing their raccoon coats and big Oxford bags and whatever else they were like doing back then. It was trying to deviate from the norm.
Darren: But then, of course, it gets, once it is adopted, that's it. You know, people told me you're mistaking this thing for something that it isn't.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Well, yeah, that's...
matt: it
matt: To me, it like, Ivy has always been, like, not not synonymous, but similar to, like, American GIs returning from the war, starting motorcycle clubs, and, like, you know, wearing chinos, which is where, you know, the the whole thing fucking originated, from the army and the...
Darren: You know,
matt: 20s to 40s.
Darren: but
matt: It's kind of like using what what's at your disposal to make ah like a countercultural argument.
Darren: Right.
Conor Fowler: DIY, like...
matt: Yeah, totally, totally.
Darren: Yeah, totally. Yeah. You know, the first guy who wore chinos on campus and and white socks probably was looked at like he was came from Mars, probably.
matt: Right, right.
Darren: ah
matt: Yeah. Like some, yeah, like, it like both, you know, all of the shit that we're into is based on subversion of, you know, the thing at hand, whether it's like music or style and clothing, like anything that, you know, we're all into is based on this shit.
Conor Fowler: worse.
matt: It's based on that, that principle.
Darren: Totally.
Darren: Yeah, totally. Totally. I totally agree with that.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: sir
Conor Fowler: And it's complicated because it's like, uh, what is the next thing?
matt: Right. I guess this whole this whole episode has kind of been about context and putting things into a certain context.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: and I don't think this is all that dissimilar.
Darren: Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, one of the things that people have to understand and in enclosed systems, things do not grow. I mean, you can't say that, okay, this is the way you're going to wear these clothes and that's not going to change at all, right?
Conor Fowler: Right.
Darren: The framework and you keep it in a way that can be identified as such, but you can incorporate things that are individual to you. I mean, that's the beauty of it, right? That's why I like...
Darren: ivy clothes and then you know of course to me there's like tears like there's the british stuff which is the more structured formal stuff you know and i'll wear that when i really want to get dressed up the ivy stuff is sort of like my middle middle ground right i wear that more probably the most every day it's it feels comfortable yeah it makes the most sense in my context where i work and at my age level you know and
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: It's utilitarian.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: yeah
Darren: you know It was good, but in order I have to bring myself into it too. I have to bring elements of you know my individual likes and needs into the clothes.
Conor Fowler: Cause you have so much cool stuff. One and two, you are like secretly able to do, ah sewing stuff, which like, that's very impressive.
Conor Fowler: So like, good for you, man.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I mean, that's like, Darren is always like taking shoulder pads out of stuff and like re-stitching linings.
Darren: Yeah, thanks.
Conor Fowler: Who can even do such a thing?
Darren: Dude, i as soon as I get a jacket, I determine if I'm like, does this have too much padding? I'll take the shoulder pads out. I'll take the inner lining out. I'll i'll do all kinds of stuff. Now, in a garment like this, of course, I wouldn't try, even attempt to do it.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, you wouldn't dare.
Darren: Yeah, I'm not i'm not English Savile Row ready, but you know what?
Conor Fowler: Right.
Darren: um jacket You know, a lot of them are made in Canada. um And they date they sort of outsource it there and they give them the specifics. So it has the has the look of the older Brooks Brothers jackets and Southwake and all those other guys.
Darren: But the structure itself, it's very stiff. It's very heavy. It doesn't feel the same. It doesn't wear the same.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: You know, it's not the same thing any longer. Right. It's totally different. It looks like it, but it's not. you know, what the stuff that we we actively look for, right? So I'll just like take that thing apart. I'll take the linings out, take shoulder pads out until it becomes something that, you know, I can live with.
Darren: And of course, you don't see those changes, but I do. And I know now it's a totally that different thing. ah
Conor Fowler: Well, because this Madras jacket, Darren sent me this Madras jacket and like it, it must weigh like, I don't know, it weighs almost nothing. And it's like, it just is like a little, it's like a t-shirt, but like stuff was removed from it to make it, to make it that way.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren: Yeah. yeah
Conor Fowler: Right. And that's like, I don't know, that's advanced DIY at the very least.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: yeah
Darren: Yeah. I got in there um and I just get a seamer and I'll take it up, open up at the shoulder first, right? That's where you get into the jacket and the shoulder pads are pretty easy to get out.
Darren: A lot. They're just stitched. Sometimes they're stitched to the sleeve itself. So you got to be careful because you cut wrong, you'll cut the sleeve off or you cut up.
Conor Fowler: right right and see what happened to me i would cut the sleeve off
Darren: wait You take that out. there you can sort of like dig into the guts of it and you can remove the inner yeah the horse hair and all that stuff that's in there and just take it out then you have a thing that's totally unique it's unique already because you're not going to yeah yeah for sure
Conor Fowler: wow i would have something unique because i would have a sleeveless jacket
Darren: yeah
matt: You can join the ska band.
Conor Fowler: i' fight Right, exactly.
Darren: the ah like it for sure So, but yeah.
Conor Fowler: We were talking, i guess, about um inspirations earlier a little bit.
Darren: Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: Like... so we see your inspirations like probably better than anyone else's inspirations, right? In the, in the way of these GQ magazine photographs and the like, but are there people that you in your life, in your history, you've been like, man, I really like, that's like a person I really look up to style.
Darren: Mm-hmm.
Darren: o Does it have to be like someone I know or just like anyone?
Conor Fowler: no, no. no
Darren: I think Gordon Parks probably.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Darren: ah
matt: Good call
Darren: Gordon Parks, he was just a very unique.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: and I mean, when you say Renaissance Man and you open it up the book, you should probably see his face there. in terms of what he accomplished, you know, I mean, he was shooting photographs for Life magazine and think in the late forties as an African-American guy, which is unique in itself.
Darren: um
Conor Fowler: he was the first, right?
Darren: Yeah. He's probably, the he is the first, yeah. To do, to do that work. um And then, you know, he, of course he did that for a while. He documented some stuff in the South and, you know, he's a really underrated photographer, but then he's amazing.
Conor Fowler: his photography is astounding to like, real, really just like, how do you, I feel like that's the takeaway from like a really good photographer. Like, how did you even do this?
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Like, it's a lot of images like that.
Darren: How did you?
Conor Fowler: Like, how did you manage? How were you at the exact right spot?
Darren: Right. Yeah. A lot of it. And you know what makes him unique as an artist, too, is the stuff that he captures. has an inherent political commentary, right?
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: Like he didn't just take a whole bunch of pictures. He really knew and he really understood the context of how, of what he wanted to shoot. um He has this particular, this black guy coming out of this manhole cover and it's just his head is sticking out the top.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Darren: Right. and And you're like, what the hell? Why would he? You know, but he's making a commentary about how, you know, what's going on in that dark and black community is not being seen.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Darren: And you have this guy raising his head up trying to be right. It's just it's just mind blowing. But anyway, I could talk about Garden Parks a lot, but I'll go back to his clothes. But in the 70s, started to film making.
Darren: So not always like a snap dresser. He definitely wore like the trench coats and the other classic clothes. Right. ah But then he starts to like incorporate stuff that just makes sense for him in his situation, which we were talking about before, you know, the cowboy hats, the denim um jeans and jackets. And he's just totally underrated as a style icon. Like I totally look up to him, you know.
Conor Fowler: tell you Excellent answer. Yeah, we'll have to put up some pictures of him because he, of course, is in Black Ivy. And so there are images there, but tons and tons and tons of images because he was recently he recently had an exhibition in D.C., I think that I was like trying to go to, but I just never made it.
Darren: yeah
Darren: yeah yeah i would have loved to see it i have a couple of books on course i have his autobiography but yeah it's just just amazing um who else do i look up to in terms of style um There's an English actor I really like since I've been getting into the whole English style stuff.
Darren: ah Ralph Richardson. ah He was a actor in the late 30s into the 40s, 50s. Of course, classically trained Shakespearean actor.
Darren: Again, another renecologist. Not only was he a fantastic actor, right? But he into his 70s, he was riding his BMW motorcycle. You know, he did his thing.
Conor Fowler: Hell yeah.
Darren: You know, he had a pet parakeet that he had on a leash. He's just a weird, weird guy.
Conor Fowler: He's a he's a pipe he's a pipe sm smoker.
Darren: but
Conor Fowler: he's like...
Darren: pipe smoker, hat wearer, you know, total English gentleman, but at the same time, this absolute weirdo. You know, I just love that stuff because you think of, you know, Englishmen from that time period of being these stiffs, crumpets and tea and what have you, but he's this whole other thing, which I think is just so cool.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Darren: So those are two of my...
Conor Fowler: Yeah, this guy's a kooky, ah kooky individual.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: He's wearing a yellow waistcoat in this picture, which that's kind of cool.
Darren: Yeah, yeah. yeah Just totally, totally, totally, totally weird. But yeah, those are my two. As I get older, those are my big and big influences.
Darren: Not to mention James Baldwin and some other writers who i really like.
matt: Could
Conor Fowler: Well, you are like, you consume a ton of media. You consume like way more than i i don't know. It's like, how do you watch all the movies and read all the books?
Darren: Yeah, it takes a very regimented. See, this goes back to, what again, what we talking about in terms of being very regimented, right?
Conor Fowler: Do you have like movie time? Do you have like reading time?
Darren: Yeah, yeah. Seriously, I do. On Sundays, I'm like, I tell my girlfriend, don't bother me. I'm watching Pernaclap from this time to this time. Then, you know, we can...
Conor Fowler: Well, you got to tell us what the hours are then. I mean, are we talking like from 8 a.m. until like 5 p.m. or? Yeah.
Darren: Yeah, probably from about 11 to maybe 3.30, 4 o'clock. I'll try and watch two or three movies. Um...
Conor Fowler: yeah
Darren: You know, just get them in and just try to absorb not only the ah the great stories, but that you can also see how people sort of lived and how they dressed, which is 100% interesting to me.
Darren: You know, like wearing a suit wasn't a big deal. These guys just went out and just that's who they were. And that was just part of what they did. And they just went out and did not for a fit pig, not for a photo op, you know, it's just I, hey, I'm wearing this three piece suit.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, right.
Conor Fowler: Well, they were like, they were like constrained by society to wear a suit.
Darren: Right.
Conor Fowler: You know, like, it's not like they were like, yeah, I'll just put on my suit.
Darren: Right.
Conor Fowler: It's so comfortable. They were like, if I don't wear a suit, I won't get bread or whatever other thing.
Darren: Right.
Darren: Yeah.
Darren: yeah Yeah, but I do that. watch my movies back that time. Usually I read books. I'm reading... What am I reading now?
Darren: The real history of the United States, I think. think Oliver Stone had a special on Netflix like ah two years ago about this.
Conor Fowler: sure you
Darren: You know, and it's just the history of the country from, I think World War I, I think. And then it just goes up until the present day and all this chicanery, I'll use that word.
Conor Fowler: but
matt: ah
Darren: ah age dance You know, it just makes it clear that, you know, you're stating one thing, but you're doing another. so it's just, you know, but again, we'll do another show on politics, but it's just interesting.
Conor Fowler: That's the shell game the shell game of American foreign policy.
Darren: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that reading that book, and i have my TCM from this time, this time. And I make like lists of magazines that I consume that I really like recommend.
Darren: Like if you're into men's work, have these. um I guess maybe 1960s GQs are ah fantastic resource.
Darren: If you're in Ivy classic stuff.
Conor Fowler: Absolutely.
Darren: um If you're into more modern, what we're starting to get into with the looser fits and the pleated pants and all this other stuff, 80s GQs on rivals, and eighty s and so mid 90s GQs, fantastic visual resources, incredible stuff in there.
Darren: ah Esquire, not so much more for the articles because they don't have like huge fashion spreads. um What else do I use? Vintage yearbooks. Sometimes I'll i'll buy... like I have like a stack here.
Darren: like From the mid to late 60s is the sweet spot to me in terms of... Ivy classic, whatever, close 1965 to 1969, 70, even 71, you know, regardless of what certain pundits have told us in the past, that, um, Ivy sort of like just died automatically in 1967 is, is a lie. It can,
matt: Yeah.
Darren: a
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: ah but Like, as soon as the hippies came along, icccc oh it was all over. No, no. It actually wasn't.
matt: No, no.
Darren: It continued right into the 70s and then sort of, like, went an underground a bit and then reemerges in the 80s as, you know, more of a prep thing outdoors.
matt: Yeah. it If anything ever came close to killing Ivy, it was Armani in the early 80s. Because, ah you know, all of the, like,
Darren: Oh, that.
matt: All of the Hickey Freemans and Southwicks of the world and Brooks Brothers of the world just, like, tried to make their own version of that. And that was ascendant for, you know, the first two decades of my lifetime, essentially.
Darren: Right. Yeah, that that's just a good point, Matt. That's sort of like you know it's sort of like what happened with the whole short and tight thing, right, in 2010, 2007, right? no One guy comes out with this motor dress, and it's super successful.
Darren: And then everybody sort of says, okay, this is what we need to do. Instead of saying, okay, maybe people don't want that. Maybe
matt: Right.
Darren: people who white want something else. Let's take a risk and do this this way and that in direct opposition to that. But they don't do that. and Right. They jump on it wholesale.
Darren: Right. It becomes like this mass, almost this huge, like unstoppable thing. Like you can't buy pants anymore unless they're flat front and they're super tight for you for years.
matt: right yep
Darren: but Just coming out of that.
matt: Yeah. And I think the mainstream is still very firmly in that. So, you know, it's only it's only the fringe that's like starting to to get it and like, oh, OK, yeah, this was not comfortable or are not as comfortable as it could have been.
Darren: yeah Yeah.
Conor Fowler: it one
matt: And yeah.
Darren: Right. Yeah, totally. I mean, there's certain brands which I won't – well, a certain brand which I won't name because I don't want to disparage anybody. But they make their whole – that's their whole thing about the whole slim cut, tight, short pants, um short jackets.
Darren: And number one, not every guy is built like that. I know I can't go in there and buy rack probably.
Darren: Maybe a shirt or something. But you know as far as the rest of their stuff, it's not for everyone, number one.
matt: No, totally.
Darren: And, you know, you've embraced it because it's, it's you think you're going to be commercially successful. So that's not really a true point of view to me.
matt: Yeah. Yeah. The one person that still holds true is Tom Brown. and no And basically Tom Brown is just a 60s fit.
Darren: Yeah.
matt: it's not It's not a J.
Darren: Right.
matt: Crew fit. It's not an off-the-rack Macy's suit. type of slim. It's, it is a vision, and he's stuck through it, and like, power to that, dude.
Darren: Right.
Darren: Yeah, yeah. Oh, much power to Tom Brown. I mean, his clothes are, it's an abstraction. It's an artistic creation. It's a reimagining of like a 60s suit, which is, I thought, really brilliant.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Darren: I owned ah i own a black fleece suit at one point.
matt: Oh, they were so sick.
Darren: Yeah, I had to get like the largest size because it didn't come in standard size.
matt: Right.
Darren: It came one to five. And that was the five.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: So I got one. I think I got a gray flannel one. And that thing was built like, I mean, it was a really beautiful garment.
matt: It was.
Darren: It really.
matt: that That was Southwick at their best.
Darren: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, for sure. For sure. but yeah. so But Tom Brown's an artist. he He really is. That that guy is like has a vision. and He just sticks with it. and that I respect that.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: What I don't expect is somebody then saying, okay, this guy's successful.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: i don't have a clear idea of my own. I'm just going to do what I think is going to make me money.
matt: Yep. Yep.
Darren: yeah
matt: Well, Darren, as always, this has been a ah pleasure that is all ours. ah
Darren: Oh, man.
matt: Yeah. Always fun to have you on and and just shoot the shit and talk about whatever comes up.
Darren: Yeah, man. This is a lot of fun. thanks Thank you so much for having me back.
matt: Of course.
Darren: ah ah
matt: Of course. It will not be the last time.
Darren: Yeah, we had to get our schedules together, but it's it's always fun talking to you guys
matt: so Totally. Totally. Well, ah yeah. Shout out your Instagram account and whatever else you'd like to. And yeah, well.
Darren: Oh. same shameless self-promotion, Darren J. 201 on Instagram. Follow if you feel like it. i appreciate it. Send me a DM.
Conor Fowler: Follow, do follow it.
Darren: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Do follow it.
matt: Yeah.
Darren: Become a friend.
matt: Highly, highly recommended.
Darren: Yeah. ah Thanks, guys. I appreciate that.
Conor Fowler: Well, dude, it's like every day you post like 20 fucking things, which is like more than we deserve, really. you know, that's like, that's like, so because you mechanically, it's a lot of work
Darren: Yeah, it is. But, you know, and it's sort of like my my under underscored desire to create a like a magazine. Yeah,
Conor Fowler: Dammit, we didn't even ask about Parsons. I guess we'll do it next time.
Darren: yeah, we'll do it next time. We'll have a part three if you guys are up for it.
matt: We surely will. We surely will.
Conor Fowler: Definitely.
matt: Well, everyone, thank you for listening. I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues.
Conor Fowler: And I Connor Flower at Connor Flower.
matt: We are at Apocalypse Studs on Instagram. ApocalypseDuds gmail.com if you've got anything to tell us via email. ah But yeah, thanks for listening, and we will see you next week.
Conor Fowler: Toodaloo.
Darren: Later.
