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Contextual Subversion with Darren Johnston
108 Plays3 days ago
Our dear friend, Darren Johnston, returns to the show once more to drop knowledge, drip swagger, discuss influence, and more. We talk recycling of menswear but without context, utility, seasonal dressing confusion, check it out!
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Transcript
00:00:15
Conor Fowler
Welcome.
Introduction to Darren Johnston's Fashion Influence
00:00:17
Conor Fowler
ah Welcome, everyone. This evening, we bring a very, very special guest, friend of the program, devilishly dashing, dynamic debonair, and never dapper, Darren Johnston, who just is I don't know, like probably one of the best Instagram pages on the internet.
00:00:42
Conor Fowler
I mean, very, very, very, ah like I, that word aspiration was annoying to me.
00:00:42
matt
ah Agreed. Agreed.
00:00:44
Darren
Thank you.
00:00:52
Conor Fowler
ah just like curatorial.
00:00:55
Darren
ah ah
00:00:56
matt
Yeah, the your archiving of ah publications and things, Darren, is fucking unrivaled. Especially...
00:01:03
Conor Fowler
Well, yeah, who else is doing that even?
00:01:04
matt
Yeah, like in this, like in the the vintage, you know, workwear, Americana, for lack of a better word, space, like it's it's done more. But I feel like very few people these days are doing anything for like, you know, tailored clothing, hashtag menswear, or whatever the fuck you want to call it at this point.
00:01:24
matt
So, yeah, thank you for the work that you do.
00:01:27
Darren
ah Thank you.
00:01:27
Conor Fowler
Well, and there's an element of forecasting too, like which I think is like, man, that's that is that is needed because there is a lot of ah there's a lot of bad advice out there, I think, or a lot of advice that I wouldn't give, and not that my advice should be taken, you know?
00:01:30
matt
yeah totally, totally.
00:01:36
matt
that
00:01:41
matt
yeah
00:01:46
matt
so So this isn't this isn't anything that we thought of for this interview prior, um but the thought that I just had, ah because Connor did mention forecasting, like, Darren, you're you know you're an aficionado, you're
00:01:59
Darren
Hmm.
Menswear Trends and Historical Context
00:02:00
matt
a historian of sorts of like the space that, you know, that we're all, or this like weird pocket of the fashion world that we're all a part of. Like, do you, do you, you know, kind of see um just from your, you know, you're digging through old stuff, like the actual kind of like cyclical nature of trends and and things that are cool?
00:02:25
Darren
That's a good question. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so much recycling going on in terms of menswear today, you know, ah just bringing back like, that's why I started like really digging into like some of the old GQs and some of the old yearbooks, because a lot of the stuff that people are just going gaga about is just recycling the same stuff that, you know, mens menswear has been, you know, doing for for decades.
00:02:51
Darren
I mean, there's,
00:02:52
matt
Right. Right.
00:02:53
Darren
Yeah, i mean, and it's cool, but at the same time, you know, it's it's without the proper context, right? Because you're just recycling and you're just sort of like imitating like some of these modes that you've seen already. But you' there's no context to go along with it. Right. You're just pulling out the pleated pants because you think that's that's the cool thing. That's the next thing.
00:03:12
Darren
But, you know. Delving into why these guys were wearing the stuff to begin with is probably far more interesting than just trying to just take it and just imitate it, you know, in mass without having disrupt this point of rest reference or point of view.
00:03:12
matt
right
Purpose and Utility in Clothing Choices
00:03:28
Darren
You know, these guys didn't wear pleated pants because they were trying to get a fit off. They wore it because it was part of who they were, you know
00:03:35
matt
Right.
00:03:36
Darren
they They wore it because it was comfortable. It made sense in their daily lives. um And it spoke to them. You know, there was some kind of precedent for it. Instead of just adopting a trend, you know, just because it's a trend, you know, they they had an impetus for it, a reason for it, you know.
00:03:54
Conor Fowler
It was military, right? I mean, it was like...
00:03:56
Darren
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of like adopting a uniform, Connor. I mean, in a lot of ways, you know, you take it, you make it part of who you are. Right. And after a while, what happens is or what should happen to me is that the the guy sort of like the closer fade back a little bit and the guy comes forth or the man or whoever comes forth.
00:04:18
Conor Fowler
Yeah, sure.
00:04:19
Darren
ah clothes anymore. You're seeing the guy who happens to be wearing these particular set of garments. And then that's how think your style sort of like manifests itself. It's not like, you know, you you take a bunch of stuff and throw it up in there and you put it on. I mean, a lot of guys can do that, but it's more predicated on the clothes speaking to who the person is, their circumstance in life, their age, and all these kinds of things sort of mesh together.
00:04:44
Darren
And that makes, to me, true style. Not, you know, just grabbing a bunch of shit, excuse my language. So, you know, Right.
00:04:51
matt
No, no, no.
00:04:53
Conor Fowler
we won' We won't be doing any editing ah since there's a lot of censorship happening.
00:04:53
matt
I mean, like...
00:04:59
Conor Fowler
We are not a part of it.
00:05:01
Darren
yeah
00:05:02
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:05:02
matt
Right. Yeah, like, something I think a lot about, you know, in both what I wear and what I'm into is, like, the utility functions of it.
00:05:02
Darren
Right.
00:05:12
Darren
Mm-hmm.
00:05:12
matt
Like, it's got a you know, I have probably said that I destroy every garment that I own. And, like, I don't see that as a bad thing. That means that, like, I wear my fucking clothes. There's nothing that I own that, like, doesn't actually get worn. Unless it's too small and I haven't gotten rid of it yet.
00:05:29
matt
But, you know, like, what you're saying kind of plays into that, too. Like, it what makes sense for the wearer is why they pick the clothes they do.
00:05:40
Darren
Right, right. They pick it for a utility, Matt. That's a good point, too. I mean, that's a beautiful thing when they when the clothes wear into the point where, you know, these little... idiosyncrasies and rips and tears become part of the garment because then it becomes uniquely yours, you know?
00:05:56
matt
Yeah.
00:05:56
Darren
And that's sort of why i like I'm starting to wear like a lot of like spoke stuff. Like if I can find it, like this is a bespoke jacket that I'm wearing from like Henry in England.
00:06:04
matt
Oh,
00:06:04
Conor Fowler
Oh, yeah.
00:06:06
matt
hell yeah.
00:06:06
Darren
And it's really, I mean, this thing is, like, you would think, like, English tailoring is really, like, stiff. This thing is so soft, and it becomes more, like, broken in and more, like, comfortable the more you wear this thing.
00:06:19
Darren
And also, it's got some rip it's got some rips in here, too. Like, the sleeve is fucking coming out, and, I mean, it's torn in here. I
00:06:26
Conor Fowler
oh yeah Hell yeah.
00:06:26
matt
Yeah.
00:06:27
Conor Fowler
See, i'm I'm not alone in this.
00:06:29
Darren
yeah
00:06:30
matt
No, no. I back it. I back it.
00:06:31
Darren
ah I'm not probably not going to fix it anytime soon. I'm just going to keep wearing it until have to fix the sleeve, you know?
00:06:39
matt
Yeah.
00:06:39
Conor Fowler
I just have such a, I just worry. I'm just like, it's gonna it's going to fall apart, so you have to fix it
00:06:46
Darren
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:46
Conor Fowler
but I feel like you probably don't.
00:06:47
Darren
Right.
Seasonal Dressing Challenges
00:06:48
Conor Fowler
I wanted to discuss what we were talking about before we started recording, which was like the, the seasonal confusion of dressing, like, which I think is such a big deal and really is universal.
00:06:59
Darren
right
00:07:03
Conor Fowler
Like, of course it's like a trope, right? Like, do I need a rain jacket? You don't wear the rain jacket. You are in a rainstorm, right? Like whatever.
00:07:14
Conor Fowler
it's annoying and you never quite get it right.
00:07:18
Darren
Right, right. I mean, it's it has to, again, it might play into utility a bit. And also, like, what what do you like?
00:07:25
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:07:25
Darren
Do you like to wear coats? If you don't like to wear coats, if you don't like to wear coats, you can actually have, you know, you have options. You can wear a short coat.
00:07:32
Conor Fowler
Who doesn't like to wear coats?
00:07:33
Darren
Yeah, but I like to wear coats. I like traditional clothes. Yeah. Traditional sort of like modes of dress. So i I like that. So I'll throw on a light unlined raincoat, you know, with the zip out lining. I'll throw that on or whatever.
00:07:46
Darren
um I probably wouldn't wear a linen jacket until
00:07:52
Darren
maybe May or June. Yeah.
00:07:54
Conor Fowler
But it's so arbitrary.
00:07:56
Darren
yeah Yeah, I know you do it, Connor.
00:07:56
Conor Fowler
It's so arbitrary. It's like,
00:08:00
Darren
And it looks great.
00:08:00
Conor Fowler
ah listen, listen, I think it's time. I mean, it's time right now because it's fucking hot.
00:08:06
Darren
Yeah, like if it's 70, and I was telling Matt, if it's 70 or 65, 68 degrees, and you have like a heavier linen garment, of course, throw it on, of course.
00:08:16
Conor Fowler
Well, what am I going to do?
00:08:16
Darren
You know.
00:08:17
Conor Fowler
Freeze to death?
00:08:21
Darren
No, not.
00:08:21
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:08:22
Darren
and
00:08:22
Conor Fowler
I don't know. I mean, it's kind of like, uh, it's like the, it's like the white after labor day thing.
00:08:23
Darren
but
00:08:28
Darren
Yeah, yeah, it's all arbitrary.
00:08:29
Conor Fowler
People decided this a long time ago.
00:08:29
Darren
Throw it Yeah, yeah. It's not a hard and fast rule ah at any – it's just me and my particular, like, old school hangups.
00:08:33
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:08:39
Darren
Like, okay, I'm going to wait until blah, blah, blah, and then I'm going to put this this thing on or I'm going to wear this or I'm going to ease into, you know, these seasons and stuff, you
00:08:48
Conor Fowler
Well, where does this, where does this come from? i mean, like, where do you, uh, where do you think that these like rules, I guess.
00:08:57
Darren
high level rules come from?
Origins of Fashion Rules and Personal Preferences
00:08:59
Darren
Probably, like I don't know, i I think because I'm kind of anal in a lot of ways.
00:09:00
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:09:05
Darren
You know, my girl recently moved in and we were we had the biggest problem because she wouldn't like arrange things the way that I would, you know, have them before she got there, right?
00:09:05
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:09:16
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us all this time.
00:09:19
Darren
yeah She'd get up off the couch. It wouldn't fold like the blanket back, you know, because I have blankets on the couch, you know, in case it gets cold. She wouldn't fold it back the way I said, no, it's a twofold. And then you fold it over like this and you put it over eat like this, you know, it's really, really um a bit of control freak probably in a lot of ways, man.
00:09:40
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:09:40
Darren
And that, yeah. And again, those rules are, You know, just arbitrary. You know, it's up to the individual. It's up to the weather. And, um yeah, if it makes.
00:09:51
Conor Fowler
Well, I mean, like when you were growing up, was there someone telling you like, and you can't wear linen before June?
00:09:58
Darren
Yeah.
00:09:59
Conor Fowler
You know, like, because I feel like that that is that is like the way that people talk about some of these kind of things, right? It's like, this is codified. This is forever, right?
00:10:08
Darren
yeah
00:10:09
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:10:11
Darren
Yeah, it was probably, well, my dad a bit, you know, he wouldn't. Matter of fact, I don't think he owned a linen garment at all. He would wear like a lot of lightweight wools and Brooks Brothers Oxfords.
00:10:23
Darren
And he would.
00:10:23
matt
Go dad.
00:10:24
Conor Fowler
Because linen is kind of like, and people are not people were not wearing that ah in that way, certainly.
00:10:24
Darren
Yeah.
00:10:25
matt
Go dad.
00:10:28
Darren
Yeah.
00:10:31
matt
Yeah, I'm going to go on the record that um and that unless it's a blend, I really just don't like wearing linen.
00:10:31
Darren
Yeah.
00:10:38
matt
Like, I'll take a wool silk linen blend or like a linen cotton or something all day long. But a straight up linen garment, I just i don't find it anywhere remotely cooler than lightweight cotton or ah like a ah tropical wool.
00:10:53
Darren
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:54
Conor Fowler
I think it's about the, it's about the like,
00:10:54
Darren
yeah
00:10:58
Darren
The Nosh Maltz. Yeah.
00:11:00
Conor Fowler
yeah, it's about the wrinkling. Really. It's about the like, um,
00:11:05
matt
Yeah, but I don't iron shit anyway, so everything I own is rank-only.
00:11:08
Conor Fowler
yeah. Well,
00:11:11
Darren
That's the best way to do it, man.
00:11:11
Conor Fowler
ah
00:11:13
Darren
But yeah, I mean, it depends. I mean, on what kind of blend you get, you know, what kind of weight. You know, that linen.
00:11:20
Conor Fowler
That's Chris's thing right now, right?
00:11:20
Darren
Hmm.
00:11:21
Conor Fowler
The made to wrinkle?
00:11:25
Darren
Oh, yeah. That's Ralph.
00:11:27
Conor Fowler
Yeah, no. ah Our um guest Chris recently launched this thing too with Substack um about that. I guess it's like, has like a sort of selling point of ah certain clothing.
00:11:47
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:47
Darren
Mm-hmm.
00:11:47
matt
Ralph definitely had a guaranteed to wrinkle, like the guaranteed to bleed Madras tag back in the day.
00:11:52
Darren
Yeah.
00:11:53
Conor Fowler
Right, right, right. No, and that's featured. I mean, that's featured in the first post.
00:11:57
matt
Hell yeah.
00:11:58
Darren
Oh, cool. That's so cool. But yeah, I mean, again, a circumstance, right? Because you can't, I don't know. I mean, if you're going to see your accountant and he shows up in some baggy linen suit, right?
00:12:10
Darren
And, you know, are you going to really, are you going have the same reaction? Are you going to feel, you know, because linen is just inherently casual, right?
00:12:19
matt
Yeah, totally.
00:12:19
Darren
You know feels like so, so loush and so laid back. You know, I work at a 150 year old institution and where I, when I wear linen in here, I mean, every, or seersucker, everybody was like, what the hell? They, don't say it.
00:12:35
Darren
Look, they're like, what are you doing?
00:12:37
Conor Fowler
well it's i mean it's a it's a class thing right it's like who would wear linen working in like the coal mines
00:12:37
Darren
Yeah.
00:12:43
Darren
Yeah.
00:12:44
Conor Fowler
You know, it doesn't, i it doesn't exactly float in that way.
00:12:46
Darren
ah
00:12:50
Conor Fowler
Like, and I feel to a certain extent, like linen tailoring, I'm kind of talking out of my ass, but like linen tailoring is ah product of imperialism.
00:13:01
Darren
Totally.
00:13:02
Conor Fowler
You know, like how did exactly we come by these ah super tailored linen garments, right? I would imagine that a colonizer was sweating too much.
00:13:14
matt
Thank you.
00:13:16
Darren
Yeah.
00:13:16
Conor Fowler
You know, it seems... It's like the gin and tonic, like, they made because of the quinine tasting bad. Like, they just put gin into it.
00:13:26
Darren
who
00:13:26
Conor Fowler
so Ingenuity, the mother of invention, whatever.
00:13:32
Darren
Exactly. Yeah. A lot of those modes of dress are from certain questionable origins. Right. And we sort of divorce them from those. Yeah.
00:13:41
Conor Fowler
Well, like, the Gurkha short, right?
00:13:42
Darren
yeah
00:13:43
Conor Fowler
Like, even that, it's like...
00:13:44
matt
Oh, yeah.
00:13:46
Conor Fowler
You know, not like you shouldn't wear it, but it still is like to go back to before. I mean, it's about acknowledging the context of what you are doing, which sir certainly people do not always do.
00:13:57
Darren
Which it was. Yeah. yeah
00:14:02
Darren
Right. I mean, you have to understand not only how to put clothes together, but what gave the impetus for the creation of that particular garment. Or you should, in my, because that'll help you dress even better, right? Because then you can subvert or really, like, embrace those those those clothes, right? So if you're wearing a seersucker suit and you're wearing the whole bow tie and the straw hat and the white bucks, I mean...
00:14:30
Darren
it look doesn't look like you anymore. It looks like, you know, ah Colonel...
00:14:33
matt
Colonel Sanders. to
00:14:34
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, you're wearing a costume.
00:14:35
Darren
What?
00:14:37
Conor Fowler
I was 20 and I was arrested in New Orleans wearing a seersucker suit.
00:14:42
Darren
what
00:14:43
Conor Fowler
Yeah, I have the mugshot even um on my computer saved as hell.jpg, which is me and my friend Leon in the Orleans Parish ah like drunk tank, basically.
00:14:59
Conor Fowler
it was 20 again.
00:15:03
Darren
Dude, totally send that to me so I can see. that
00:15:05
Conor Fowler
I will. Yeah, we can post it. I mean, it's like, why? i don't think I was wearing a straw hat.
00:15:13
Darren
But you have
00:15:13
Conor Fowler
But if I had access to one, I would have been.
00:15:16
Darren
to.
00:15:18
matt
no one No one should be wearing a straw hat, please.
00:15:18
Darren
That.
00:15:22
Conor Fowler
Yeah, no, that's, that's, that is a sign of something.
00:15:23
Darren
Again, other loaded thing.
00:15:26
Conor Fowler
I don't know exactly what it is. feel like there's a picture of Bob Dole wearing a, wearing a straw hat like that, you know, like one of those electioneering type hats.
00:15:34
Darren
Yeah.
00:15:37
Darren
Yeah. I mean, those straw boaters are like, I only know one guy, a friend of mine who can really pull that off and look, not look like he's wearing a costume, but um yeah, everybody else should probably see it.
00:15:49
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:50
Darren
Like this drinking a mint julep on the veranda, you know,
00:15:58
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:15:58
matt
Yeah, there's a couple of famous pictures that I think Elliot Landy took of Bob Dylan wearing a boater hat, but he's also wearing flip-flops or no shoes and chinos and a you know ah a casual button-down shirt, so I'll forgive that one.
00:16:15
Darren
Dude, i totally get I totally know which picture you're talking about. This is that visual usual a reference thing you were you we were talking about.
00:16:17
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:21
Darren
That's after, I think, he has this motorcycle accident. And then he goes to his little farm.
00:16:24
matt
Yeah.
00:16:27
Darren
And then he sort of of, like, I think he started to you know recreate himself for the 15th time or whatever it was. and he
00:16:33
matt
Right. Yeah. that That's around.
00:16:34
Darren
ah
00:16:34
matt
I want to say that's around the time that he and the band got together for the basement tapes.
00:16:37
Darren
yeah Yeah, the band had started Basement Tapes. I think that's around the time. But, yeah, he looks totally natural. All right. Because now he's not even he's wearing the straw hat and he's wearing like a white shirt and he's wearing some slim cotton pants or something and flip flops.
00:16:53
Darren
And it looks so, so cool.
00:16:54
matt
Yep.
00:16:56
Darren
Right.
00:16:56
matt
sort the The type of cool that if I tried to wear that you know at any point in my life, I would feel like a total goober.
00:17:03
Darren
Right.
00:17:03
Conor Fowler
It's very hard to it's very hard to look cool in flip-flops. I've owned one pair of flip-flops in my entire life.
00:17:09
matt
Yeah, I am anti-flip-lop slash sandal for myself. so
00:17:13
Darren
Yeah, me too.
00:17:14
Conor Fowler
Yeah, it was al Pacino Scarface flip-flops that I got in the Ocean City, Maryland, what?
00:17:14
Darren
I'm totally...
00:17:21
matt
this is I'm pretty sure this is not the first time you've mentioned those flip-lops.
00:17:25
Conor Fowler
No, I'm sure.
00:17:26
matt
yeah
00:17:26
Conor Fowler
now I have a picture of those, too.
00:17:26
matt
probably not not even the fourth time that you've mentioned this.
00:17:29
Conor Fowler
Yeah, because they're like, who would ever create such a thing? like yeah Intellectual property aside, like what is the even the point? There's a man with a gun on the flip-flop.
00:17:41
Darren
yeah I had a bad experience in a pair of flip-flops. Oh, my gosh. I went to Brazil. And I had the flip-flops on. And we were staying at somebody's house, right? And I um was walking. And then it was like this incline or step up, right? And I flip-flop caught part of my my heel or something. Oh, my gosh. I think I tore something in my foot as a result of that. It was months before I was better.
00:18:04
Darren
And after that, no more flip-flops.
00:18:06
matt
Yeah, yeah. Fuck that shit.
00:18:06
Darren
ah
00:18:08
Conor Fowler
Yeah, you definitely don't want to injure yourself because you're wearing flip-flops. That's like...
00:18:13
Darren
Yeah, no, not at all.
00:18:14
matt
Yeah. Well, aside from the animus against flip-flops, which I think all three of us have, um New Year, we're, you know, two and a half months in.
Menswear Divide: Influencers vs Enthusiasts
00:18:25
matt
ah Darren, what is your opinion on the state of menswear that we're currently embodying?
00:18:30
Darren
Oh.
00:18:31
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:18:33
Darren
Wow, wow. Well, i I think what's happening is there is this very, very clear delineation happening now in menswear.
00:18:46
Darren
um There's these high level influencers who are trying to tell people but what to wear, what to dress and how to go about doing things. And they have these silly little videos like telling turning, like putting on a belt with a jacket and making it short or some kind of craziness I saw the other day.
00:19:02
Darren
And then you have the more informed and more knowledgeable menswear, um, crowd who really have been with it for a long time, like, you know, 15, 20 years or something.
00:19:14
Darren
And they're really like sort of leading, leading the pack and sort of directing and moving it forward a bit. I mean, what I don't like is the crash personalization and the monetization of a lot of, you know, accounts who are like, okay, if you follow me, you'll get 50% off on proper cloth or whatever.
00:19:34
Darren
I mean,
00:19:34
matt
ah Right, right.
00:19:35
Darren
I mean, why? We all know what proper cloth is. We can go there ourselves and they'll probably get the same discount. I mean, it's not not not that I have anything against it. I just feel like, I don't know, sometimes a little disingenuous.
00:19:49
Darren
I mean, you don't have
00:19:50
Conor Fowler
It's like Joseph A.
00:19:51
matt
Totally. Totally.
00:19:51
Conor Fowler
Bank marketing type.
00:19:51
Darren
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:52
matt
Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:53
Darren
Yes.
00:19:53
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:19:53
matt
I mean, I think Derek has written about this and how like fashion writers, you know, at least mainstream fashion writers, um it almost seems like they're in on the take in a little bit ah more of a way than they once were.
00:19:53
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:20:06
Darren
Right.
00:20:08
matt
And like, I don't know.
00:20:09
Conor Fowler
For sure.
00:20:10
matt
Yeah.
00:20:10
Conor Fowler
It seems like almost, it seems almost completely transparent.
00:20:10
matt
Yeah,
00:20:14
Conor Fowler
Like you should buy this shit because like, I am going to somehow make, uh, whatever off of it.
00:20:14
matt
yeah yeah definitely. Definitely.
00:20:21
matt
Which, like, you know, it in certain ways, um yeah not not the writers particularly, but, like, my friends' brands that get covered and, you know, it bumps their sales.
00:20:21
Darren
may
00:20:21
Conor Fowler
you
00:20:22
Darren
right
00:20:32
matt
Like, I'm stoked about that in a GQ or Esquire or whatever. But, like, the the writers themselves doing a lot of the stuff, especially for, like, bigger brands.
00:20:43
matt
Yeah, like, disingenuous is a perfect word for it.
00:20:47
Darren
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, if you have a brand like your friend and you're trying to that and it's an obvious thing that, hey, I'm here to sell stuff. Well, you know, and then but, you know, and then you have other guys say, hey, blah, blah, blah. And by the way, I'm supporting or they're tagging brands in their in their feed. And it's obvious that, you know, they're getting something for it.
00:21:08
Darren
So it's like I don't want to be i don't want to be. Led by the nose. I come on Instagram sort of like to meet guys like you and just hang out and, you know, talk about the silly kind of silly, you know, hobby that we're all into.
00:21:21
matt
100% Right. Yeah, yeah.
00:21:22
Darren
but But I don't want to be, you know, there's there's enough commercialization, our daily lives, right? We're inundated with this thing all day. You know, I can't even talk about, you know, a particular song and have my phone off.
00:21:36
Darren
And then when I go to YouTube, the damn song is right there. You know, they're trying to bombard me and tell me what to think and what to do.
00:21:40
matt
right
00:21:44
Darren
You know, come on, you know, the gram and just have a good time, you know?
00:21:48
matt
yeah yeah
00:21:49
Conor Fowler
I just don't want to be pitched all the time.
00:21:50
Darren
but yeah
00:21:51
matt
yeah Also, i don't know about y'all, but I get ads for the worst looking shit I've ever seen in my fucking life all the time.
00:21:58
Darren
Right.
00:21:59
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:21:59
matt
Like clothing related all the time. Like i have no idea. Maybe I clicked on something or or like, you know, thought something was really funny and wanted to look at their profile.
00:22:10
matt
And then I get a million ads for it. Like, yo, I'm just doing this to fucking laugh. Like, I don't want to see more of this shit.
00:22:19
Darren
Right. Right. I don't want to see that. Like if I do have something to sell and Connor knows this, you know, Hey, I'm either going to give it, I'm going to give it away to you or I'll, um you know, I'll sell it for a very cheap price and I'll be like, I wanted to go somewhere to someone who will appreciate and not the landfill.
00:22:35
Darren
You know, I'm not going to say, you know, Hey, here's my, here's my Brooks Brothers Oxford. These are $65 and blah, blah, blah, blah. Or whatever. You know?
00:22:35
matt
yeah
00:22:43
matt
Right, right. I mean, that's ah I sell old shit for my living.
00:22:44
Darren
Yeah.
00:22:46
matt
Like, that's what I do. But I have like i would never care to advertise and like do a sponsored post on Instagram. like I don't fault people in my realm that do, or like small brands, but...
00:23:02
matt
You know, there's just, there's, there's so much like wheat that you got to get out of the chaff in that respect.
00:23:02
Darren
Right. Right.
00:23:10
Darren
right Yeah, and I'm not hating on anybody who makes their living doing that, right? And what I'm I don't...
00:23:14
matt
Yeah, totally. Totally. But, you but, you know, it's like Instagram sadly and, and like a lot of online clothing world culture or whatever you want to call it. Like it's, it is way more, um,
00:23:30
matt
way more about making money, it seems, than, like, actually building connections with people that are into the same shit. And, like, that's why i use Instagram.
00:23:37
Darren
right
00:23:39
matt
i want to see i want to see stuff from people that I think are cool and, like, friends.
00:23:43
Darren
right yeah that's exactly why why i'm on there you know to exchange information to learn about you know what whoever's doing and you know to to build community because you don't when when you're into this this hobby and this thing man you don't really have a lot of it's not like i can go next door hey what do you think about this t tweet jack you know people going to
00:23:53
matt
Totally.
00:24:04
matt
right
00:24:05
Darren
great So you have to find a light community and that community is often dispersed over a wide area. So.
00:24:11
matt
Yeah, it's it's very much decentralized now compared to like even, you know, five or six years ago.
00:24:11
Darren
ah
00:24:17
Darren
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:24:17
matt
like
00:24:20
Darren
Totally. So yeah, that that's my whole rationale. And that's that's where I think the state of menswear is pretty much.
The Role of Smaller Fashion Communities
00:24:26
Darren
It's this weird stri striation between you know this big commercial band and then you have these smaller non-influencer people who are really the really sort of driving the whole thing forward in a way. And I'm not including myself, obviously, in this, but...
00:24:47
Darren
I think a lot of people who who don't have huge followings are much more interesting and much more stylish than, you know, a lot of people who have 300 or 500,000 followers. know what mean? Yeah.
00:24:58
matt
Right.
00:25:00
Darren
yeah
00:25:01
Conor Fowler
And that's sort of how it is, I guess. like That's like coolness, really. like To a certain extent, like the cooler you get, like the less cool you are.
00:25:14
Darren
yeah
00:25:14
matt
mr Just side note, can you guys, either of you, imagine having that many followers?
00:25:15
Darren
yeah
00:25:21
matt
like i get Like, I get stressed out having three unread messages. Like, I can't even imagine having that many followers that are legitimate, not paid for, you know, or whatever.
00:25:33
matt
And just, like, yeah, the amount of, like, interacting that i would have to do would just wear me the fuck out.
00:25:33
Conor Fowler
You'd have to hire someone, I think.
00:25:41
Darren
Yeah, yeah, it's like a full-time job, you know.
00:25:44
matt
Seriously.
00:25:45
Darren
I think I'm closing it for fourth hour.
00:25:46
Conor Fowler
And it feels like a fucking job already. Like,
00:25:50
Darren
Yeah. I have like 4,000, almost 4,000 followers now, 3,500 or something like that. And I'm starting to like, oh my gosh, how am I going to? And then, you know, if I don't follow back, sometimes I feel like, oh my gosh, I should be following.
00:26:01
matt
Yeah, yeah, I can't i can't do that.
00:26:01
Darren
it
00:26:03
matt
i will get overwhelmed with how many, like, random-ass people that I'm following.
00:26:05
Darren
Yeah. so um but
00:26:08
Darren
Right. You know, what I would.
00:26:09
matt
No offense to anyone if they follow me, but, yeah.
00:26:11
Darren
Yeah, I mean, if you, I can't follow everyone back, obviously, now, because I'm starting to feel, like, guilty about that, like I said, but I will answer your DMs and interact and do it.
00:26:20
matt
Yeah, totally, totally. i mean, that's part of that's part of what makes social media fun, is, like, the interaction.
00:26:26
Darren
Yeah, totally.
00:26:28
Conor Fowler
I think it's getting pretty like,
00:26:28
Darren
Totally.
00:26:31
Conor Fowler
a
00:26:34
Darren
yeah
00:26:34
Conor Fowler
like, I don't know. Like I was scrolling the Instagram feed yesterday, which I consciously thought like, I have not done this in a pretty long time.
00:26:46
Conor Fowler
And just a lot of ads, basically just a lot of ads, you know, and I'm sure
00:26:51
matt
Yeah. Lots of ads.
00:26:52
Darren
Yeah.
00:26:55
Conor Fowler
like
00:26:58
Conor Fowler
we're never going back from this point. Like there will only ever be more ads, more intrusive ads.
00:27:00
matt
No, no.
00:27:01
Darren
Yeah.
00:27:06
Conor Fowler
And like, that's just the way of the world.
00:27:09
matt
Yeah.
00:27:09
Darren
Yeah.
00:27:10
matt
Yeah. When I get a when I get a, are you interested or not? Uh, prompt. I'm, I'm always so happy to hit not interested.
00:27:18
Darren
yeah
00:27:18
matt
Like, but i don't need to I don't need to see...
00:27:20
Darren
yeah
00:27:20
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:27:23
matt
i know what Don Dishliquid is. i don't need to see a fucking ad for Don Dishliquid.
00:27:29
Conor Fowler
Wow.
00:27:30
matt
good it's the It's the little things.
00:27:31
Conor Fowler
Dude, you gotta, it's the little things in life, ultimately. Wow. yeah
00:27:35
matt
It's the same as blocking every single ad I see on Twitter. like i get it I get a little hit of dopamine. you know the The most the minute hit of dopamine, but it's still fun every single time.
00:27:48
Darren
oh yeah.
00:27:48
Conor Fowler
wow
00:27:48
Darren
That's the... You know why? Because the choice your choice is being restored to you, right? Now you...
00:27:53
matt
Right, right, yeah.
00:27:54
Darren
out You know, but when you're constantly bombarded and you have no say so, right, it's sort of and whether you wanted to or not.
00:28:02
matt
Yeah.
00:28:05
matt
It's like, yeah, it's like every time you look at a news organization website and you've got 19 different pop-ups so you've got to block before you can read the fucking article.
00:28:14
Darren
Oh, my God.
00:28:14
matt
Yeah, it's it's got kind of like that. like that That is dystopian as fuck.
00:28:19
Darren
Oh, for sure. For sure, man.
00:28:21
Conor Fowler
We like don't really have any more of those, do we?
00:28:21
Darren
Yeah.
00:28:22
matt
if
00:28:24
Conor Fowler
I mean, the Washington Post doesn't really exist in a legitimate way anymore. And neither has the New York Times for a long time.
00:28:31
matt
Yeah, I guess I'm, I think I'm, I guess maybe it's, it's like smaller news organizations and like local stuff.
00:28:40
Conor Fowler
Like Ariana Huffington.
00:28:40
matt
Like the AJC, the Atlanta General Constitution, like anytime I want to read an article, if it's not behind a paywall, um it's like, oh cool.
00:28:42
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:28:49
matt
Okay, get three, you know, three words into it. 16 pop-ups. All right, go fuck yourself.
00:28:54
Conor Fowler
yeah I mean, the one extant paper in Baltimore, the banner, they're paid all the way.
00:28:55
Darren
Right. Right.
00:29:02
Conor Fowler
Like, you can't really, like, read it at all.
00:29:02
matt
Oh, yeah.
00:29:04
Conor Fowler
And I don't, I mean, it makes sense because they're, like, a small outfit. Like, they're competing with the Baltimore Sun, which is, like, owned by ah right-wing billionaire.
00:29:12
matt
Right, right.
00:29:13
Darren
hey
00:29:13
matt
Yeah.
00:29:13
Darren
right
00:29:14
Conor Fowler
So it's, like, just dreadful.
00:29:18
Darren
They're giving us no choice in a lot of ways, man. And if you really want to know what's going on, you, it's almost like you, you'll have to really seek it out and compartmentalize and take little bits of things to really find out the real story.
00:29:18
matt
Yeah.
00:29:34
matt
Yeah.
00:29:34
Darren
Plus,
00:29:34
matt
I mean, honestly, that's part of the reason I'm still on Twitter. um ah You know, it's ah it's a way to connect with, like, people that aren't paid assholes that actually report news and various things.
00:29:48
Darren
Yeah, yeah, that's what that's what's good about it.
00:29:51
matt
Yeah. why Why should I leave when Elon's the one that sucks? I was here first. Fuck you. Yeah.
00:29:58
Darren
ye Don't get me started on him.
00:30:01
matt
Oh, I know. I know. We could do we should just do like a round table of trashing Elon for an episode. I think that'd be hell of fun and very cathartic for all of us.
00:30:11
Darren
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:11
Conor Fowler
Listen, I'm trying to be I'm trying to be charged as a domestic terrorist. So I've been I've been waiting that moniker for a long time.
00:30:16
matt
Yeah, I
00:30:20
Darren
but
00:30:20
Conor Fowler
Local, I guess local domestic terrorist is a little ah redundant, but you know what I mean?
00:30:26
matt
got, I got
00:30:26
Darren
Yeah.
00:30:27
matt
I got it. Uh,
00:30:28
Darren
Yeah.
00:30:29
matt
um
00:30:29
Darren
Let
00:30:30
matt
Darren, what have you been shopping for lately? Any any cool pickups?
00:30:36
Darren
me see. What did I get lately? um I did find a suit from a bespoke maker in England, Fallon and Harvey, which I don't...
00:30:47
matt
Oh, nice.
00:30:47
Darren
this Yeah, it's a gray suit, gray pinstripe.
00:30:48
matt
nothing
00:30:54
Darren
Yeah. like a lighter gray. um And I think no belt loops that they can sell high-waisted. pleats either, which is weird, but um double vented. It's a really nice suit. I think I found it for 300 bucks.
00:31:09
Darren
this like
00:31:09
matt
Oh, that's sick. Yeah.
00:31:11
Darren
Yeah,
00:31:11
matt
right Are you on?
00:31:12
Darren
yeah
00:31:12
Conor Fowler
And you can got it on eBay.
00:31:13
matt
like
00:31:14
Darren
yeah that was the one one of the few times eBay has really started to build up some stuff. I can't find good stuff on eBay any longer. I mean, it's very rare.
00:31:21
Conor Fowler
I, yeah, I've been having a fucking terrible time.
00:31:22
matt
It's hard, man. It's really hard.
00:31:25
Conor Fowler
Like I haven't even been able to buy anything. What a crime.
00:31:29
Darren
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's dried up completely. Can't find any vintage Brooks Brothers really any longer. Can't find any shirts, USA made shirts anymore.
00:31:42
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:31:43
Darren
You know, so.
00:31:44
matt
It sounds like you're off.
00:31:44
Conor Fowler
It's bizarre.
00:31:45
matt
Are you on a Savile Row kick right now? and
00:31:48
Darren
Uh,
00:31:49
matt
Henry Bull and Fallon and Harvey mentions already.
00:31:51
Darren
Yeah, yeah. I'm on a Sour Roll kick only because of the Ivy stuff. It's sort of like, can't find it any longer.
00:31:58
matt
Right, right.
00:31:58
Darren
Can't find it. And it, you know, I like the Sour Roll stuff. It sort of like fits into the whole thing anyway, because Ivy is just Sour Roll English style's little brother anyway, right?
00:32:10
matt
Right. right
00:32:11
Darren
of like, you know, versus this English style. And then, you know, probably students went over and at some point and saw, you know, how, you know, those guys dressed, brought it back to America, the tweed jackets, the flannel pants and all that stuff.
00:32:24
Darren
And that's sort of how the whole thing started to develop probably back in the 20s, 1910s or whatever. um
00:32:31
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:32:31
Darren
But always been this
00:32:32
Conor Fowler
Well, the I mean, the Ivy League institutions are like copies of the.
00:32:37
Darren
of the British public but our school system or whatever they call it.
00:32:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Oxford and what have you.
00:32:41
Darren
Yeah. Yeah. Cambridge and all those places. Yeah, totally. Totally. So not only did they still sort of copy those institutions, but also the Mojo dress that went along with those things, you know, so, which is interesting, but um yeah, so I've been on that for a while.
00:32:58
Darren
um Yeah. What was I going to say about the, I went to England recently and,
00:33:04
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:33:04
matt
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:33:05
Conor Fowler
Yeah. That's in the questions too.
00:33:06
Darren
That was a lot of fun. I really liked the English guys, sort of older English guys in particular over there, um like put their clothes together.
00:33:08
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:33:15
Darren
Like it's very colorful. It's very kind of eccentric in a lot of ways, man. I saw some guys wearing some stuff that I would be, I was like, what the hell?
00:33:24
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:24
Darren
You know?
00:33:24
Darren
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:24
matt
I feel like Dandy kind of like Dandy is still very much a thing for older English gentlemen.
00:33:31
Darren
Yeah.
00:33:31
Conor Fowler
Yeah, I want to get that guy Paul Stafford on the show, who is like a hair he's like a hair stylist, but he's like wearing 30s shit all the time. He's like really, in the way you describe, like eccentric and colorful.
00:33:44
Darren
Yeah, yeah. I sort of like that. So that's cool.
00:33:47
Conor Fowler
Me too. I mean, I think it's a very like, ah I don't know, like it's a very way, it's a good way of like disarming the whole style, you know, like to bring it down to earth, like I'm not taking myself too seriously.
00:34:00
Darren
Yeah.
00:34:03
Conor Fowler
i don't want to like take away your rights. um um
00:34:06
Darren
Right. Right.
00:34:08
Conor Fowler
Yeah, and I think that's important.
00:34:08
Darren
It feels important. It feels more individual and not so regimented. Because that's the problem with, I think, Ivy now is that it's just this mode and it's just this thing. And we sort of forget that Ivy was a youth.
00:34:23
Darren
It was about rebellion. It wasn't about conformity.
00:34:26
matt
Right.
00:34:26
Darren
Right? These kids like, hey, I'm not going to dress like my dad. I'm gonna wear an Oxford shirt. going wear it on top. i'll wear with some jeans or, you know, some wheat jeans or some high-waisted whatever and da-da-da-da. I'm going to do my own thing.
00:34:37
Darren
You know? But then, of course, it got... codified or whatever and adopted. And then it became this, you know, thing that it is now, which is being embraced by the far right their like calling card, a lot of them.
00:34:51
Darren
But it didn't start out like that. It's if, you know, conservative thing, this is a act of rebellion from these kids.
00:34:52
matt
right
00:34:59
Darren
You know, and that would probably follow through from the 20s too. You know, they were wearing their raccoon coats and big Oxford bags and whatever else they were like doing back then. It was trying to deviate from the norm.
00:35:12
Darren
But then, of course, it gets, once it is adopted, that's it. You know, people told me you're mistaking this thing for something that it isn't.
00:35:16
matt
Yeah.
00:35:16
Conor Fowler
Well, yeah, that's...
00:35:17
matt
it
00:35:20
matt
To me, it like, Ivy has always been, like, not not synonymous, but similar to, like, American GIs returning from the war, starting motorcycle clubs, and, like, you know, wearing chinos, which is where, you know, the the whole thing fucking originated, from the army and the...
00:35:21
Darren
You know,
00:35:41
Darren
but
00:35:41
matt
20s to 40s.
00:35:43
matt
It's kind of like using what what's at your disposal to make ah like a countercultural argument.
00:35:52
Darren
Right.
00:35:52
Conor Fowler
DIY, like...
00:35:53
matt
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:35:54
Darren
Yeah, totally. Yeah. You know, the first guy who wore chinos on campus and and white socks probably was looked at like he was came from Mars, probably.
00:36:03
matt
Right, right.
Influence of Subversion and Counterculture
00:36:04
Darren
ah
00:36:05
matt
Yeah. Like some, yeah, like, it like both, you know, all of the shit that we're into is based on subversion of, you know, the thing at hand, whether it's like music or style and clothing, like anything that, you know, we're all into is based on this shit.
00:36:05
Conor Fowler
worse.
00:36:26
matt
It's based on that, that principle.
00:36:26
Darren
Totally.
00:36:29
Darren
Yeah, totally. Totally. I totally agree with that.
00:36:33
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:36:33
Darren
sir
00:36:33
Conor Fowler
And it's complicated because it's like, uh, what is the next thing?
00:36:40
matt
Right. I guess this whole this whole episode has kind of been about context and putting things into a certain context.
00:36:41
Darren
Yeah.
00:36:47
matt
and I don't think this is all that dissimilar.
00:36:50
Darren
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, one of the things that people have to understand and in enclosed systems, things do not grow. I mean, you can't say that, okay, this is the way you're going to wear these clothes and that's not going to change at all, right?
00:37:04
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:37:05
Darren
The framework and you keep it in a way that can be identified as such, but you can incorporate things that are individual to you. I mean, that's the beauty of it, right? That's why I like...
00:37:16
Darren
ivy clothes and then you know of course to me there's like tears like there's the british stuff which is the more structured formal stuff you know and i'll wear that when i really want to get dressed up the ivy stuff is sort of like my middle middle ground right i wear that more probably the most every day it's it feels comfortable yeah it makes the most sense in my context where i work and at my age level you know and
00:37:32
matt
Yeah.
00:37:33
Conor Fowler
It's utilitarian.
00:37:39
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:37:39
matt
yeah
00:37:39
Darren
you know It was good, but in order I have to bring myself into it too. I have to bring elements of you know my individual likes and needs into the clothes.
00:37:52
Conor Fowler
Cause you have so much cool stuff. One and two, you are like secretly able to do, ah sewing stuff, which like, that's very impressive.
00:38:04
Conor Fowler
So like, good for you, man.
00:38:05
Darren
Yeah.
00:38:06
Conor Fowler
I mean, that's like, Darren is always like taking shoulder pads out of stuff and like re-stitching linings.
00:38:07
Darren
Yeah, thanks.
00:38:13
Conor Fowler
Who can even do such a thing?
00:38:15
Darren
Dude, i as soon as I get a jacket, I determine if I'm like, does this have too much padding? I'll take the shoulder pads out. I'll take the inner lining out. I'll i'll do all kinds of stuff. Now, in a garment like this, of course, I wouldn't try, even attempt to do it.
00:38:29
Conor Fowler
Yeah, you wouldn't dare.
00:38:31
Darren
Yeah, I'm not i'm not English Savile Row ready, but you know what?
00:38:34
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:38:35
Darren
um jacket You know, a lot of them are made in Canada. um And they date they sort of outsource it there and they give them the specifics. So it has the has the look of the older Brooks Brothers jackets and Southwake and all those other guys.
00:38:51
Darren
But the structure itself, it's very stiff. It's very heavy. It doesn't feel the same. It doesn't wear the same.
00:38:57
matt
Yeah.
00:38:57
Darren
You know, it's not the same thing any longer. Right. It's totally different. It looks like it, but it's not. you know, what the stuff that we we actively look for, right? So I'll just like take that thing apart. I'll take the linings out, take shoulder pads out until it becomes something that, you know, I can live with.
00:39:15
Darren
And of course, you don't see those changes, but I do. And I know now it's a totally that different thing. ah
00:39:21
Conor Fowler
Well, because this Madras jacket, Darren sent me this Madras jacket and like it, it must weigh like, I don't know, it weighs almost nothing. And it's like, it just is like a little, it's like a t-shirt, but like stuff was removed from it to make it, to make it that way.
00:39:34
matt
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:34
Darren
Yeah. yeah
00:39:38
Conor Fowler
Right. And that's like, I don't know, that's advanced DIY at the very least.
00:39:43
Darren
Yeah.
00:39:43
Darren
Yeah. I got in there um and I just get a seamer and I'll take it up, open up at the shoulder first, right? That's where you get into the jacket and the shoulder pads are pretty easy to get out.
00:39:43
matt
yeah
00:39:55
Darren
A lot. They're just stitched. Sometimes they're stitched to the sleeve itself. So you got to be careful because you cut wrong, you'll cut the sleeve off or you cut up.
00:40:01
Conor Fowler
right right and see what happened to me i would cut the sleeve off
00:40:02
Darren
wait You take that out. there you can sort of like dig into the guts of it and you can remove the inner yeah the horse hair and all that stuff that's in there and just take it out then you have a thing that's totally unique it's unique already because you're not going to yeah yeah for sure
00:40:15
Conor Fowler
wow i would have something unique because i would have a sleeveless jacket
00:40:26
Darren
yeah
00:40:27
matt
You can join the ska band.
00:40:29
Conor Fowler
i' fight Right, exactly.
00:40:31
Darren
the ah like it for sure So, but yeah.
00:40:39
Conor Fowler
We were talking, i guess, about um inspirations earlier a little bit.
Style Inspirations: Gordon Parks and Ralph Richardson
00:40:45
Darren
Mm-hmm.
00:40:46
Conor Fowler
Like... so we see your inspirations like probably better than anyone else's inspirations, right? In the, in the way of these GQ magazine photographs and the like, but are there people that you in your life, in your history, you've been like, man, I really like, that's like a person I really look up to style.
00:41:01
Darren
Mm-hmm.
00:41:11
Darren
o Does it have to be like someone I know or just like anyone?
00:41:15
Conor Fowler
no, no. no
00:41:19
Darren
I think Gordon Parks probably.
00:41:21
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:41:22
Darren
ah
00:41:23
matt
Good call
00:41:24
Darren
Gordon Parks, he was just a very unique.
00:41:24
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:41:29
Darren
and I mean, when you say Renaissance Man and you open it up the book, you should probably see his face there. in terms of what he accomplished, you know, I mean, he was shooting photographs for Life magazine and think in the late forties as an African-American guy, which is unique in itself.
00:41:46
Darren
um
00:41:46
Conor Fowler
he was the first, right?
00:41:47
Darren
Yeah. He's probably, the he is the first, yeah. To do, to do that work. um And then, you know, he, of course he did that for a while. He documented some stuff in the South and, you know, he's a really underrated photographer, but then he's amazing.
00:42:00
Conor Fowler
his photography is astounding to like, real, really just like, how do you, I feel like that's the takeaway from like a really good photographer. Like, how did you even do this?
00:42:10
Darren
Yeah.
00:42:11
Conor Fowler
Like, it's a lot of images like that.
00:42:11
Darren
How did you?
00:42:13
Conor Fowler
Like, how did you manage? How were you at the exact right spot?
00:42:17
Darren
Right. Yeah. A lot of it. And you know what makes him unique as an artist, too, is the stuff that he captures. has an inherent political commentary, right?
00:42:27
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:42:28
Darren
Like he didn't just take a whole bunch of pictures. He really knew and he really understood the context of how, of what he wanted to shoot. um He has this particular, this black guy coming out of this manhole cover and it's just his head is sticking out the top.
00:42:37
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:42:44
Darren
Right. and And you're like, what the hell? Why would he? You know, but he's making a commentary about how, you know, what's going on in that dark and black community is not being seen.
00:42:49
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:42:54
Darren
And you have this guy raising his head up trying to be right. It's just it's just mind blowing. But anyway, I could talk about Garden Parks a lot, but I'll go back to his clothes. But in the 70s, started to film making.
00:43:09
Darren
So not always like a snap dresser. He definitely wore like the trench coats and the other classic clothes. Right. ah But then he starts to like incorporate stuff that just makes sense for him in his situation, which we were talking about before, you know, the cowboy hats, the denim um jeans and jackets. And he's just totally underrated as a style icon. Like I totally look up to him, you know.
00:43:36
Conor Fowler
tell you Excellent answer. Yeah, we'll have to put up some pictures of him because he, of course, is in Black Ivy. And so there are images there, but tons and tons and tons of images because he was recently he recently had an exhibition in D.C., I think that I was like trying to go to, but I just never made it.
00:43:55
Darren
yeah
00:43:58
Darren
yeah yeah i would have loved to see it i have a couple of books on course i have his autobiography but yeah it's just just amazing um who else do i look up to in terms of style um There's an English actor I really like since I've been getting into the whole English style stuff.
00:44:18
Darren
ah Ralph Richardson. ah He was a actor in the late 30s into the 40s, 50s. Of course, classically trained Shakespearean actor.
00:44:31
Darren
Again, another renecologist. Not only was he a fantastic actor, right? But he into his 70s, he was riding his BMW motorcycle. You know, he did his thing.
00:44:41
Conor Fowler
Hell yeah.
00:44:42
Darren
You know, he had a pet parakeet that he had on a leash. He's just a weird, weird guy.
00:44:46
Conor Fowler
He's a he's a pipe he's a pipe sm smoker.
00:44:49
Darren
but
00:44:50
Conor Fowler
he's like...
00:44:50
Darren
pipe smoker, hat wearer, you know, total English gentleman, but at the same time, this absolute weirdo. You know, I just love that stuff because you think of, you know, Englishmen from that time period of being these stiffs, crumpets and tea and what have you, but he's this whole other thing, which I think is just so cool.
00:45:06
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:45:10
Darren
So those are two of my...
00:45:11
Conor Fowler
Yeah, this guy's a kooky, ah kooky individual.
00:45:13
Darren
Yeah.
00:45:14
Conor Fowler
He's wearing a yellow waistcoat in this picture, which that's kind of cool.
00:45:17
Darren
Yeah, yeah. yeah Just totally, totally, totally, totally weird. But yeah, those are my two. As I get older, those are my big and big influences.
00:45:30
Darren
Not to mention James Baldwin and some other writers who i really like.
00:45:30
matt
Could
00:45:35
Conor Fowler
Well, you are like, you consume a ton of media. You consume like way more than i i don't know. It's like, how do you watch all the movies and read all the books?
00:45:49
Darren
Yeah, it takes a very regimented. See, this goes back to, what again, what we talking about in terms of being very regimented, right?
00:45:57
Conor Fowler
Do you have like movie time? Do you have like reading time?
00:46:00
Darren
Yeah, yeah. Seriously, I do. On Sundays, I'm like, I tell my girlfriend, don't bother me. I'm watching Pernaclap from this time to this time. Then, you know, we can...
00:46:08
Conor Fowler
Well, you got to tell us what the hours are then. I mean, are we talking like from 8 a.m. until like 5 p.m. or? Yeah.
00:46:15
Darren
Yeah, probably from about 11 to maybe 3.30, 4 o'clock. I'll try and watch two or three movies. Um...
00:46:23
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:46:24
Darren
You know, just get them in and just try to absorb not only the ah the great stories, but that you can also see how people sort of lived and how they dressed, which is 100% interesting to me.
00:46:35
Darren
You know, like wearing a suit wasn't a big deal. These guys just went out and just that's who they were. And that was just part of what they did. And they just went out and did not for a fit pig, not for a photo op, you know, it's just I, hey, I'm wearing this three piece suit.
00:46:47
Conor Fowler
Yeah, right.
00:46:50
Conor Fowler
Well, they were like, they were like constrained by society to wear a suit.
00:46:57
Darren
Right.
00:46:58
Conor Fowler
You know, like, it's not like they were like, yeah, I'll just put on my suit.
00:46:58
Darren
Right.
00:47:02
Conor Fowler
It's so comfortable. They were like, if I don't wear a suit, I won't get bread or whatever other thing.
00:47:04
Darren
Right.
00:47:09
Darren
Yeah.
00:47:13
Darren
yeah Yeah, but I do that. watch my movies back that time. Usually I read books. I'm reading... What am I reading now?
00:47:26
Darren
The real history of the United States, I think. think Oliver Stone had a special on Netflix like ah two years ago about this.
00:47:31
Conor Fowler
sure you
00:47:34
Darren
You know, and it's just the history of the country from, I think World War I, I think. And then it just goes up until the present day and all this chicanery, I'll use that word.
00:47:47
Conor Fowler
but
00:47:47
matt
ah
00:47:48
Darren
ah age dance You know, it just makes it clear that, you know, you're stating one thing, but you're doing another. so it's just, you know, but again, we'll do another show on politics, but it's just interesting.
00:48:01
Conor Fowler
That's the shell game the shell game of American foreign policy.
00:48:05
Darren
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that reading that book, and i have my TCM from this time, this time. And I make like lists of magazines that I consume that I really like recommend.
00:48:19
Darren
Like if you're into men's work, have these.
Sources of Fashion Inspiration
00:48:22
Darren
um I guess maybe 1960s GQs are ah fantastic resource.
00:48:30
Darren
If you're in Ivy classic stuff.
00:48:30
Conor Fowler
Absolutely.
00:48:33
Darren
um If you're into more modern, what we're starting to get into with the looser fits and the pleated pants and all this other stuff, 80s GQs on rivals, and eighty s and so mid 90s GQs, fantastic visual resources, incredible stuff in there.
00:48:52
Darren
ah Esquire, not so much more for the articles because they don't have like huge fashion spreads. um What else do I use? Vintage yearbooks. Sometimes I'll i'll buy... like I have like a stack here.
00:49:05
Darren
like From the mid to late 60s is the sweet spot to me in terms of... Ivy classic, whatever, close 1965 to 1969, 70, even 71, you know, regardless of what certain pundits have told us in the past, that, um, Ivy sort of like just died automatically in 1967 is, is a lie. It can,
00:49:29
matt
Yeah.
00:49:29
Darren
a
00:49:29
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:49:30
matt
Yeah.
00:49:30
Darren
ah but Like, as soon as the hippies came along, icccc oh it was all over. No, no. It actually wasn't.
00:49:36
matt
No, no.
00:49:37
Darren
It continued right into the 70s and then sort of, like, went an underground a bit and then reemerges in the 80s as, you know, more of a prep thing outdoors.
00:49:45
matt
Yeah. it If anything ever came close to killing Ivy, it was Armani in the early 80s. Because, ah you know, all of the, like,
00:49:55
Darren
Oh, that.
00:49:58
matt
All of the Hickey Freemans and Southwicks of the world and Brooks Brothers of the world just, like, tried to make their own version of that. And that was ascendant for, you know, the first two decades of my lifetime, essentially.
00:50:12
Darren
Right. Yeah, that that's just a good point, Matt. That's sort of like you know it's sort of like what happened with the whole short and tight thing, right, in 2010, 2007, right? no One guy comes out with this motor dress, and it's super successful.
00:50:29
Darren
And then everybody sort of says, okay, this is what we need to do. Instead of saying, okay, maybe people don't want that. Maybe
00:50:37
matt
Right.
00:50:37
Darren
people who white want something else. Let's take a risk and do this this way and that in direct opposition to that. But they don't do that. and Right. They jump on it wholesale.
00:50:48
Darren
Right. It becomes like this mass, almost this huge, like unstoppable thing. Like you can't buy pants anymore unless they're flat front and they're super tight for you for years.
00:50:57
matt
right yep
00:51:00
Darren
but Just coming out of that.
00:51:02
matt
Yeah. And I think the mainstream is still very firmly in that. So, you know, it's only it's only the fringe that's like starting to to get it and like, oh, OK, yeah, this was not comfortable or are not as comfortable as it could have been.
00:51:08
Darren
yeah Yeah.
00:51:21
Conor Fowler
it one
00:51:21
matt
And yeah.
00:51:22
Darren
Right. Yeah, totally. I mean, there's certain brands which I won't – well, a certain brand which I won't name because I don't want to disparage anybody. But they make their whole – that's their whole thing about the whole slim cut, tight, short pants, um short jackets.
00:51:39
Darren
And number one, not every guy is built like that. I know I can't go in there and buy rack probably.
00:51:46
Darren
Maybe a shirt or something. But you know as far as the rest of their stuff, it's not for everyone, number one.
00:51:51
matt
No, totally.
00:51:52
Darren
And, you know, you've embraced it because it's, it's you think you're going to be commercially successful. So that's not really a true point of view to me.
00:52:00
matt
Yeah. Yeah. The one person that still holds true is Tom Brown. and no And basically Tom Brown is just a 60s fit.
00:52:06
Darren
Yeah.
00:52:10
matt
it's not It's not a J.
00:52:10
Darren
Right.
00:52:12
matt
Crew fit. It's not an off-the-rack Macy's suit. type of slim. It's, it is a vision, and he's stuck through it, and like, power to that, dude.
00:52:18
Darren
Right.
00:52:23
Darren
Yeah, yeah. Oh, much power to Tom Brown. I mean, his clothes are, it's an abstraction. It's an artistic creation. It's a reimagining of like a 60s suit, which is, I thought, really brilliant.
00:52:34
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:52:36
Darren
I owned ah i own a black fleece suit at one point.
00:52:39
matt
Oh, they were so sick.
00:52:40
Darren
Yeah, I had to get like the largest size because it didn't come in standard size.
00:52:45
matt
Right.
00:52:45
Darren
It came one to five. And that was the five.
00:52:48
matt
Yeah.
00:52:50
Darren
So I got one. I think I got a gray flannel one. And that thing was built like, I mean, it was a really beautiful garment.
00:52:57
Darren
It really.
00:52:57
matt
It was.
00:52:58
matt
that That was Southwick at their best.
00:52:58
Darren
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, for sure. For sure. but yeah.
Authenticity in Fashion Design
00:53:05
Darren
so But Tom Brown's an artist. he He really is. That that guy is like has a vision. and He just sticks with it. and that I respect that.
00:53:13
matt
Yeah.
00:53:13
Darren
What I don't expect is somebody then saying, okay, this guy's successful.
00:53:13
matt
Yeah.
00:53:17
Darren
i don't have a clear idea of my own. I'm just going to do what I think is going to make me money.
00:53:23
matt
Yep. Yep.
00:53:25
Darren
yeah
00:53:28
matt
Well, Darren, as always, this has been a ah pleasure that is all ours. ah
00:53:35
Darren
Oh, man.
00:53:35
matt
Yeah. Always fun to have you on and and just shoot the shit and talk about whatever comes up.
00:53:44
Darren
Yeah, man. This is a lot of fun. thanks Thank you so much for having me back.
00:53:47
matt
Of course.
00:53:47
Darren
ah ah
00:53:47
matt
Of course. It will not be the last time.
00:53:50
Darren
Yeah, we had to get our schedules together, but it's it's always fun talking to you guys
00:53:53
matt
so Totally. Totally. Well, ah yeah. Shout out your Instagram account and whatever else you'd like to. And yeah, well.
00:54:00
Darren
Oh. same shameless self-promotion, Darren J. 201 on Instagram. Follow if you feel like it. i appreciate it. Send me a DM.
00:54:11
Conor Fowler
Follow, do follow it.
00:54:13
Darren
Yeah.
00:54:13
Conor Fowler
Do follow it.
00:54:13
matt
Yeah.
00:54:14
Darren
Become a friend.
00:54:14
matt
Highly, highly recommended.
00:54:17
Darren
Yeah. ah Thanks, guys. I appreciate that.
00:54:18
Conor Fowler
Well, dude, it's like every day you post like 20 fucking things, which is like more than we deserve, really. you know, that's like, that's like, so because you mechanically, it's a lot of work
00:54:33
Darren
Yeah, it is. But, you know, and it's sort of like my my under underscored desire to create a like a magazine. Yeah,
00:54:40
Conor Fowler
Dammit, we didn't even ask about Parsons. I guess we'll do it next time.
00:54:44
Darren
yeah, we'll do it next time. We'll have a part three if you guys are up for it.
00:54:48
matt
We surely will. We surely will.
00:54:49
Conor Fowler
Definitely.
00:54:51
matt
Well, everyone, thank you for listening. I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues.
00:54:57
Conor Fowler
And I Connor Flower at Connor Flower.
00:55:00
matt
We are at Apocalypse Studs on Instagram. ApocalypseDuds gmail.com if you've got anything to tell us via email. ah But yeah, thanks for listening, and we will see you next week.
00:55:17
Conor Fowler
Toodaloo.
00:55:18
Darren
Later.