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Art Is A Shield with Bob Dale
107 Plays9 days ago
This week, we had Oklahoman thrift legend, artist, and all around rad dude @bobdale in the studio. We talked shopping at department stores, pop art, Warhol, uniforms, the aroma and etiquette of thrifting, the inspirations and aspirations of his art, clowns, living in the Central Time Zone, the Tulsa music scene, and much more!
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Apocalypse Duds. Woo! Woo! Yay! I am Matt Smith. And I am Connor Flower. And we are delighted ah to have...
00:00:15
Speaker
a fucking really old friend of mine, ah that I have known and somehow never met since like, I don't know, 2007, but, he's a great dude He is a bodacious dad.
00:00:32
Speaker
um he is a legend and, ah one of the few people that I love being in a group chat with, which is kinda, you know, not my thing.
00:00:47
Speaker
yeah without further ado uh we've got and we welcome robbie quote-unquote bob dale fraser hey guys what's going on man how are you i'm i'm good i'm i'm really excited um I was looking
Origins in Denim Enthusiasm
00:01:06
Speaker
forward to it. I'm glad we were able to kind of work out the technology.
00:01:09
Speaker
And like, I, it's so rare. I like hear your actual voice. i know, I know. um I know how much you love talking on the telephone. So this is. Yeah. yeah Robbie and I met on super denim, the super future sub forum for denim heads.
00:01:28
Speaker
I think it was 07, right? Like somewhere around there. We lived in Omaha. And I was talking to Lauren about it, and i'm like or my my partner Lauren, and I'm like, yeah, I feel like it was Omaha.
00:01:41
Speaker
um So it would have been like probably 2007-ish.
Thrifting Insights and Etiquette
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah, something like that. Maybe. like And I think, because you definitely lived in New York still, and I think you were...
00:01:54
Speaker
uh, you were at like peak Matt menswear. Like, uh, yeah, it was, it was before I moved to New York for sure. Um, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like but Like, uh, at least, at least, at least 15 years, but right but probably more than that.
00:02:10
Speaker
It's been a fucking long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. We're somehow we're, we're still similar people. So somehow it's great. some Like, yeah.
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah. All right this time and I still dress like shit. a Same here. Same here. I feel like I've heard it. I don't even think that that's true.
00:02:32
Speaker
no i not don't either. Yeah. I mean, I feel like you have a, ah Robbie, you have like a very well established style.
00:02:44
Speaker
um And we were just talking about your thrifting prowess, you know? It's like, I haven't found that kind of shit. Like a new barber jacket. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:54
Speaker
I like, I think it's, I'm extremely lucky. And I think like, but, but Matt knows this, like I thrift basically every day, but Saturday and I,
00:03:05
Speaker
For every really great thing I find, I find like a I'm in ship shape, you know, T-shirt like every day and survive and survive the like, you know, hearing Boston for the like 30th time on a single day.
00:03:22
Speaker
There is a certain horror about it. Like there is a very like distinct... almost creeping horror about the thrift store with the like soundtrack and the like grimy fingertips like oh like just it's not dirty it's not a thrift store and like i live for that like yeah yeah no i'm not dog i'm not dogging and i'm saying like there is a very It is a very sensory experience. If yeah the store doesn't smell like urine, you're probably not really thrifting. So i I'm going to end this thing. like
00:03:59
Speaker
I've heard people on come on the show and talk about thrifting on eBay, and i that's cute, but it's not thrifting.
00:04:09
Speaker
ah One of the chains here, Value Village, which I think is also owned by, or it is owned by Savers, I don't think. Um, is that true? So they've got almost all of it now. Yeah. Yeah. And like, uh, so over the years I've been, I've been going to value village since I was like a teenager. Like they've just always been around somehow.
00:04:31
Speaker
Um, nearly every store, even a fucking brand new one that opened up years ago, uh, one side of the speakers don't work properly. And so a joke between me and some friends, my friend, my best friend, Eleanor in particular has become like, you know, California dreaming by the mamas and the papas comes on.
00:04:57
Speaker
And it's like, it's like, you know, you hear all the leaves are, and then you hear da because the other side kicks in and you're just like what where the fuck am i that's i mean that's that's actually i would enjoy that because i'm here in the prong of the belt of the bible but i'm in the prong of the buckle of the bible belt so it's like the same uh like DC talk song.
00:05:27
Speaker
Like, yeah. And, and, you know, you know, uh, you, it's no, it's, it's nothing for me to go to Salvation Army and be there for like 45 minutes to an hour. So the CD just starts coming over again.
00:05:40
Speaker
um and I can't, I can't do the headphone thing. i thought about it. Like, and I think, What do you mean? what do you mean? Why can't you do the headphones?
00:05:52
Speaker
i it It throws me off. It throws me off, and it's also like i need to be aware of the people around me because my biggest pet peeve is when people – aren't aware of where they are in the thrift and where I am. so And they're like, they, they crowd a thrift or they're not paying attention or they're like in the middle of an aisle. you can go down the a stuff I'm trying to find.
00:06:16
Speaker
Right. And they're just parked on their phone. Um, I mean, like, I don't know. Like, I think that there's a lot of etiquette and that it all got lost during the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. I hate a fucking rack jacker, too.
00:06:29
Speaker
like Yes. If there's someone looking at a rack that I want to go to and and they're like you know working their way through it, I'm not going to go jump ahead of them. and b I have a standard question. like I will ask, like hey, which way are you going? Are you going this are you going this way?
00:06:46
Speaker
Are you going out that way? I try not to talk to anybody. and I try not to talk to anybody, and and it's usually like there's an age limit. If they look like they're under... 35 i don't make eye contact i don't talk to them um right if they have a perm i just go to the other side of the side of the thrift store like if i hear like bet or um any like youth slang i momentarily turn into clint eastwood and then i text matt and
00:07:17
Speaker
da la la It's true. These guys, like, they're ruining it for me. and and And then it turns into, like, you know, delay. And then, oh my gosh, look at what I just found.
00:07:31
Speaker
Or is this anything? Or, you know, the the tropes of thrifting. I think there are people that that that, like, thrift for fun. And I think, like, for me, it's it's literally, like, a balm for my sanity.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah,
The Meditative Art of Thrifting
00:07:48
Speaker
yeah. so Because I'm not thinking um'm not thinking when I thrift. Like, i I am, but I'm not. I'm in this weird flow state. um and It's like street photographers talk about, like, getting in the whatever. They're, like, in the... I think that it, like...
00:08:08
Speaker
it's, it's, it's somewhat evolutionary, you know like we had hunters and gatherers and we had people that like knew where all the good stuff was. They knew where to find like the, the mushrooms and the berries and, and this stuff. And it's like, I can distinctly remember like spots in thrift stores where I found things like, totally.
00:08:29
Speaker
like I can remember like exactly where I was standing, like the time of day, I mean, like one of my best finds ever is in a thrift store in Tulsa. I got a pair of like Levi's 503s for 99 cents.
00:08:42
Speaker
So these are like, they weren't jerky tag, but they were like, they put them in with the work wear. ah they were in tagged They were tagged $1.98. I got them for $0.99.
00:08:53
Speaker
And I could go, i could get in my car right now and drive to the spot and like stand in the spot. Like it's still there. like Do you ever just go back and stand in the spot where you found them? I try to like hone it sometimes, like, ah but it never works. You're manifest. yeah it's all It's all dumb luck. it's it's It's really all just dumb luck. It really is. Yeah.
00:09:14
Speaker
Like there's there's a certain level of skill to it. Like, you know... you know ah like Personally, I thrift and and like pick mostly by sight. 100%. Totally. you know I'm not going to be one of those people flipping through every single fucking thing.
00:09:33
Speaker
Because I know that I've done it long enough that I can i can see the t-shirt collar. And know, oh, that's 70s, that's that's 80s or
00:09:44
Speaker
It's all, and I think like, and I don't really thrift to sell anymore, but when I did, it's like, all of this is is homogenous. Like, I'm looking for the things that break that up. like Yeah, totally, totally. Like, and like...
00:09:59
Speaker
No, go ahead. You can you can tell. i think what what really bothers me is like when a particular brand gets really good, like Gap got really good at jackets and jeans.
00:10:10
Speaker
And like the one really good, that that toddler jacket that I found for Chet, like I saw it across and I'm like, this is to be Gap. It's going to be Gap. There's no weight.
00:10:21
Speaker
And then you find it. But it's like... I mean, it's like, I've never like looked for pearls in an oyster, but it's gotta to be like the ratios have gotta be the same where you're just like shucking and shucking and shucking and finding nothing like, yeah.
00:10:35
Speaker
Right. And I don't know. I think people lament what's there. And I really think there's so much still out there. Like, that's why I keep going. Like, yeah, totally.
00:10:46
Speaker
Totally. Uh, I mean, as, as we've talked about before, like it is kind of a finite resource, but, uh, There's, you know, there are things that were made in the tens of millions.
00:10:59
Speaker
So chances are, like, there's still, you know, especially military shit. there's There's so much that's still just, like, sitting in someone's house.
00:11:10
Speaker
Yeah. like i I've only recently kind of gotten into, like, the quote trad stuff just because... But like it's always been there. And I think back to like the stuff that like I would have been stoked about now that I was seeing 10, 15, 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Right. like And it's like, I mean, I didn't look at pants until... looked at jeans...
00:11:36
Speaker
Jackets, t-shirts, bric-a-brac. Like I didn't look at pants. I didn't look at collared shirts. I didn't look at jackets or ties, like probably until.
00:11:46
Speaker
I still don't look at pants. and Five to seven years ago. And now like you just figure out all these little tricks and I'm not going to go into it. But like, I think once you once you've thrifted three times, three to five times, like if you, if you are actually thrifting, like you,
00:12:02
Speaker
and you find something like you take that little bit and then you just keep looking for that and then you slowly start to see things it's like oh this is what 100 cotton t-shirt looks like this is what this is what a ah brooks oxford looks like um yeah we're not giving to away secrets on this program well i mean like i'm not going to give away secrets at all but No. And two, you can see like, i don't know, one of the things that Giuseppe talks about or talked about on an affordable wardrobe was like, if you see one nice thing, like it is almost for certain there will be other stuff around it somewhere, right?
Robbie's Background and Musical Influences
00:12:43
Speaker
it's like You want to think that?
00:12:44
Speaker
You want to think that? and Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, like in your experience, if I'm wrong, but like for me, I'll see like a really nice jacket and no pants or like, I'll see like part of like a military grouping.
00:12:57
Speaker
Like, Oh, hundred percent. Yeah. I'm saying mostly like, two out of like 12 pieces. if You see, you see like one nice, a sport coat, what have you, chances are there are others lurking from the same side. Like, i think that like, or there's pants that are like from the same donation. And you know, like,
00:13:16
Speaker
ah Like Robbie said, a lot of it is just pure luck because you don't know when the shit got processed. You don't know how much of it got processed. Well, if you live in a city with two with two with like two of the same chain store, like the pants might go to the North store and the jacket might go to the East store. And that's definitely happened.
00:13:38
Speaker
like Certainly. um Yeah. Lost lost forever. Well, ah yeah, that was that was a great way to get into this. But Robbie, where are you from and where are you now?
00:13:53
Speaker
I grew up in Oklahoma City um and I kind of lived all over, but I'm in Tulsa now. um Lived here since 2012. twenty twelve ah Yes,
00:14:04
Speaker
we had another Oklahoman. is Is that the demonym? Yeah. hunter sal Hunter Salad. Hotel Salads, Hunter Saunders. I just started following him Yeah, he lives and think he yeah yeah i I don't know him, but I need to to reach out to him. seems I lived in the city with him, yeah, I would know that guy for sure.
00:14:29
Speaker
Yeah, so you've been kind of Midwest for the most part, right? Like in your life? i know like um own I've only lived in in the central time zone. yeah like ah ruin I think the farthest east I've been is like basically the border of Georgia and North Carolina or Tennessee kind of.
00:14:49
Speaker
right and then Have you been to the like New England-ish area? mean like last year and the year before I flew to D.C. as what right Yeah, but i've I've never been to New York. I've not been to the to that. i think There's huge portions of of the U.S. that I've never been to.
00:15:10
Speaker
Huh. well which just know Which is kind funny because I work for an airline. so like right Right. And that's so funny too, dude. Because you could just... you could But it's like... Yeah.
00:15:23
Speaker
yeah You would want to go with your kids, right? Yeah. Or just like... I mean... like i'm not i'm not affluent and I'm not poor. But like you you have to have the time and the resources to travel. Right.
00:15:37
Speaker
yeah So i go. But I also just like... you know the ability to just get my car and go. I know, I know. yeah Like just getting in a car and going, having a little more control.
00:15:50
Speaker
yeah, a hundred to percent. I mean, I've driven to Tulsa a few times in my life. So yeah, I've driven all over the, the eastern half of the United States, like eastern being Texas and central to the east coast.
00:16:07
Speaker
Yeah, I've, I mean, like, i i grew up in Oklahoma City, I went to boarding school in Arkansas, I went to college in Nebraska and Texas, moved back to Nebraska, lived in Omaha, lived in Lincoln, lived in western Nebraska, but it's all kind of been in that, like, central time zone.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, I don't love Omaha, Lincoln fucking rules. Lincoln is really ah great town and there are pockets of Omaha, like Omaha, um, like thrifting in Omaha was amazing just because of the sheer sprawl there.
00:16:41
Speaker
Um, it's just a huge, it's huge. Same with Oklahoma city. Like, a like there's not as many people, but like Oklahoma city covers 600 square miles. I think that's where, I think that's where Hunter lives.
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah, he's probably in the Oklahoma City area. like And then you have like you know like San Francisco covers... like I don't know. it's It's way less. So it's it's just sprawl.
00:17:05
Speaker
um But Omaha... I didn't live there long enough. and like i was I lived there from the time I was 20 until I was 23. um But like really good scene. like So much music. like I saw the Black Lips there twice. I saw...
00:17:23
Speaker
think King Kong the barbecue show. I saw built a spill. Like so many bands go through there. Yeah. Well, I mean, like Saddle Creek is based there. Like it is right bright eyes. Yeah. i I'm blanking on the other like big bands.
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Cursive was the one I was thinking of. Yeah.
00:17:44
Speaker
So yeah, I, I, that's, I've, I've lived those places. But I, I, Oklahoma is home for me and, um i really i
00:17:57
Speaker
warts and all i love i love tulsa fuck it yeah tulsa is a cool place too like from my experience this is man this is matt's question but ah what is the weather like and what are you wearing It, let's see, my phone buzzed at me right before we got on with a UV warning.
00:18:20
Speaker
So the UV warning is nine. It was like 96 when I left work. Jesus Christ. And I think that the humidity was like up there. i So it's an inside day.
00:18:34
Speaker
It's an inside day. And I'm wearing yeah black 501s. um This is a Gitman vintage ah blue and white stripe. And then I wore Purcells and then just a ball cap today.
Fashion Style and Influences
00:18:50
Speaker
But see, that is your like... that's like right in line with what I know you to be wearing. I feel like that's your, that's your outfit. That's, that's sort of my uniform. Like, I mean, I have really, i have a lot of really nice things, like nice, nicer jeans. And I'm always probably gonna, I revert to like kind of beater 501s just cause the fit is consistently good.
00:19:14
Speaker
Yeah. And they're like classics. Yeah. Yeah. Especially the black ones. Like you just don't see good black jeans very often. I like ah you, you toe the line of like looking in white trash. Like you really had, like if you wear them with like the wrong t-shirt, you just, it's norm core, but like, it's not norm core. It's like white trash. Like, right. Right.
00:19:37
Speaker
Like, and and it's weird because like black Levi's somehow, I don't know if it's the way they're dyed. like they work, but like black wrestlers or black wranglers. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:48
Speaker
They just get that weird gray twinge and you're just like, I'm gonna see y'all down at the trailer park for NASCAR rice. i'm sure Right. oh Robbie, do you remember like kind of one of the first clothing things that, that sticks with you? Like when did you start thrifting? When did you start getting interested in clothing?
00:20:08
Speaker
Oh, uh, like first clothing memory. Uh, I remember second grade, uh, my mom and I went to Shepler's, which is like a Western wear store. Like a huge, I found plenty of Shepler's button downs over the years. yes I think it's like boot barn now, but we went and I got, this was like, you know, I grew up in Oklahoma city. So this was like peak Garth Brooks, like probably 93. And bought a, uh, some off brand cotton, like, you know, kind of print Western shirt, uh,
00:20:44
Speaker
And I think I got like some green green or like weird colored Levi's and a bolo tie. And like that was what I wore for like my – it was either like first or second grade. Somewhere in their like 90s. Like just yeah yeah straight up looked like I could have been in like – like on TNN, you know, like I remember that.
00:21:06
Speaker
and And then I remember like, and it ah sadly, i think it closed, but there was a really awesome thrift store in Oklahoma City. And I remember like probably being six or seven and going like school shopping there and then like going there in high school.
00:21:25
Speaker
Uh, and then going there, like, I remember like when I was in my big, like trying to dress up the strokes, like there was this amazing suit and my mom was like, no, we're not going to buy you that suit. We're going to take you to, the mall. And then I got this suit that I wore exactly one time.
00:21:42
Speaker
I was so bummed. Um, but like, i think really like the thrifting started, um, there was a movie theater. And so my dad would drop me off at a movie theater and then,
00:21:54
Speaker
Like while I was waiting for him to pick me up on Sundays after like seeing a double feature or a movie, I would thrift. um And it was just like, um I definitely started thrifting out of necessity just because like I couldn't find, you know, cool t-shirts or jeans.
00:22:14
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Like I saw this thing before the show, sorry to interrupt you, but before, before the show started, you and I were talking about the challenges sort of of living in a not major city, basically. yeah I mean like, and, and I think like, um you know, this is like pre-internet, but like you would look at like a magazine and you would see, you know, in the nineties, like <unk> I'd say like thrift style was kind of, you know, like ironic t-shirts or like,
00:22:45
Speaker
um, like Levi's five 17s or like, uh, like the twill Dickies and just things that were like just old enough to be at a thrift store, but not like super old.
00:22:56
Speaker
Um, Like Doc Martens somehow. Like when I wanted Doc Martens, like I was able to find them for like, you know, they were accessible. Like my parents could give me like $40 for school clothes and I could get enough school clothes for like the year, you know, like a couple pairs of jeans and some shirts on like, you know, 30, 40 bucks. Yeah.
00:23:19
Speaker
and be set you know and then i had to wear like uniforms but um i definitely like did you did you go to because was your boarding school uniform school oh not at all like and and people hear boarding school and i think they think like your traditional like military school and this was just like it was like a religious school yeah it was basically just a high school that i lived at him or really it it was like most people's experience with, with college only. I was like 14.
00:23:48
Speaker
Right. Right. one So you were before then, right? What now? Sorry. No, mean you were, ah
00:24:02
Speaker
dressing that way in a uniform. Like, Oh yeah. So like middle school and stuff. And like, before I went to the Academy, uh, we had like uniforms, like polos. I looked like I worked at like an apartment store or like target i low and khakis, you know, and like,
00:24:20
Speaker
uh i think they kind of loosened it and it was like shirts with a collar so i remember like it's it's really weird it's like a it surprises me but i told my dad i was like hey can you go to the thrift store and get me some shirts and he bought me this like he bought me a whole bunch of shirts like two or three were like manhattan and then i got this like purple and i was really surprised my dad bought me a purple oxford cloth button down but it was like by this brand called Stuart Glead, I think, out of New York. And it was like, I had it forever.
00:24:51
Speaker
Like, I mean, I have... yeah I have like two. I love them. I'm wearing a purple shirt right now. I mean, I think it's like... I've really, you know, slowly started to get into to color. um And it's weird, like, I'm wearing black jeans, but like, probably...
00:25:07
Speaker
I mean, like when Matt met me, I didn't own a single piece of black clothing like at all. I mean, the other stuff. And I worked at Abercrombie and like somehow they drilled into my brain that like black was bad.
00:25:18
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know how I ever liked it. Well, that's like a, that's like a rule of like Ivy style too, right? Like don't wear any black stuff. Yeah. I didn't know that.
00:25:29
Speaker
That's, that's interesting. I don't, it's, I mean, it's like how hard and fast are these things, but it's like generally speaking, Brown leather looks better than black leather.
00:25:40
Speaker
If it is aged, i guess that makes sense. That's kind of, I guess that makes sense. But I don't know. I mean, i don't really fuck with it cause I'd rather be wearing something colorful.
Artistic Journey and Process
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i i love blue and red. I think i think of like, I remember telling somebody that I thought gray was a color and they just laughed at me. ah Yeah, like a don't know I don't have very much gray either. It's like, I don't know, I'd rather it be brown.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:14
Speaker
It's richer. It's like softer in some ways. I get that.
00:26:21
Speaker
Um, well, so I guess we should dive into your art. Cool. Let's do it.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I have been following you, I guess, ah three- ish three-ish years or something. um And I have watched with glee as you have like kind of figured you're kind of gotten into your stride, right? like I feel like you were doing lots of different um lots of different types of things and you have like sharpened your vision.
00:26:59
Speaker
So I guess I was wondering.
00:27:03
Speaker
I guess I was wondering about your process. Like I'm never writing basically. You're never writing. Yeah. And I should be writing all the fucking time, but I'm never writing. So I wonder how do you get, how do you get into it?
00:27:20
Speaker
Like, I definitely, i have moments where I i like, either feel like I want to make something or I feel like I need to make something. and i think more often than not, like, um, I'm just so neurotic and not in like the cute green day way. Like I just am constantly thinking and Mac can attest to that. Like I'll just bombard the group chat with like many crises that aren't really that important, but like, I just am thinking so much. And so like, just like I said, I'll thrift it.
00:27:53
Speaker
Like just so that I'm, that I like for a pause in the thinking, like I will just start. Um, and God, it's so nice. I just, and I, I, I'm, I'm very privileged. i have a job that, um, I, I, I have to be at a desk and I, it's more reactionary than it's more reactive than proactive. So I have a lot of time where I can,
00:28:19
Speaker
And i would it started off with just like doodling just to fill time. um And I found that like if I'm staring at my phone to kill time, like I just get depressed or I feel like, man, i can link together like I could be reading a book or I could be listening to something.
00:28:37
Speaker
And it's like – And I would like, I would try to listen to a book, like, you know, an audio book and I get interrupted because I'm at work. And so it's like, how, how am I going to, how am I going to be responsible to my job, but also not go crazy.
00:28:51
Speaker
And so like, I just, I found paper, you know, and I'm like, let me make something out of this. And then it's like, oh, I found like or pencils or like found all the stuff. And so like, really that's what it,
00:29:02
Speaker
grew out of like the the stuff that you see but i've always kind of like done collage um for a long time the collages are weirdly like the thing that i always thought was like the best like i thought the collages were fucking cool um because you don't see that you know i i did collage and i think like um like I think the worst thing for me as an artist is Instagram and the best thing for me as an artist is Instagram because you can see it's, I mean, and it's that way with thrifting too, because like you can see ah everybody's highlights when you're in the middle of like your low period, but like it, it's nice to, it's also really nice just because of the social component.
Social Media's Impact on Art
00:29:45
Speaker
Like um you can do like collage challenges and,
00:29:51
Speaker
you know, prompts. Like, I think that that was the thing that I did. I got bumped to seconds. And so like, I just, I was at my desk and I would, I would be like, Hey, um, Instagram, like, give me some drawing prompts.
00:30:04
Speaker
And most of the time they were really funny, but the drawings were not very good. Um, and so like, I guess that was appealing in a way, but I thought that was so cool too. Like, i don't know. it was like interactive. It was like in in, it's really fun. It's really fun. And I think like, um, and you're putting yourself like sort and not like at risk in a real way, but you're like putting yourself out there, like stump me basically.
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah. I mean like, and, and sometimes it's really like some, I mean, like, i don't know. Uh, so Sometimes people people give like really challenging prompts to that. like I'm still working on one that somebody said, like draw two things you like tessellated. And I'm like, after I Googled what tessellated me, I'm like, I'm going to get back to you on that. I'm going work on it.
00:30:57
Speaker
um and you know And then you get like you know people like Carla that are like, you know, a clown eating a hot dog to mess with me. right Right. Favorite things.
00:31:10
Speaker
My my act like a clown drinking a Pepsi eating a Coke. or Sorry, i'm I'm tired. I've been awake since so ah you know, a clown eating a hot dog drinking a Pepsi. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:22
Speaker
That's that's right. It's hard to even say that. You're anti clown. i i I have colorophobia. Nobody is that happy, first of all.
00:31:36
Speaker
Nobody. And anybody that is that handy with a balloon is creepy. And like like, yeah, I'm anti-clown. They're creepy, but it's like clowns are a lot of stuff. Like clowns are ever present. Clowns have been present throughout. Are you trying to make me terrified for the rest of this by talking about clowns? No, I'm just defending my brethren. i am 100% on Ravi's side with this. I fucking hate clowns.
00:32:08
Speaker
I understand. like So people in my life like them. And I think that like if they bring you joy, awesome. um Have you seen the show Baskets? Probably not. I have.
00:32:21
Speaker
You have? And the thing about that is like, there's not clowns in it. Like, I mean, there is, but there There are no clowns. Rodeo clowns are different.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, they are. So nobody likes a, like, here's a dog. Like, nobody likes that type of clown. But there I'm just saying there are many types of clowns and they are some of them worthwhile.
00:32:50
Speaker
I think rodeo clowns are athletes. um and they're stylish and they're not scary like and yeah yeah they're not they're not they're not from the movie fucking it there you go and it's not it's not synthetic like i don't want superficial synthetic so it's the artifice very much so like i gotcha see in that case because that is unnerving like who yeah agreed You know, when I lived in New York and like would go to Times Square just to walk around for no particular reason, like it's kind of like the the people that dress up Elmo.
00:33:30
Speaker
And it's like it's the same principle totally for me tourists are giving these, you know, their kids. Like, to these people that they don't know in a costume letting them take pictures. I mean, I guess you could say the same about, like, going to the mall and sitting on sandwich. That's dinner with Ho-Ho. Yeah, like, that shit's creepy in retrospect. Well, there's so much about childhood that is creepy. I mean, I feel like you should do it. With the clowns, like, with the clowns, it's it's really just the, like... I mean, it's... I think it's my own personal, like...
00:34:07
Speaker
and So sounds so melodramatic to say personal darkness. Like, um, like like um you know, like if, if you're self-aware, like if you're a self-aware child and you're like mildly depressed, like you just realize like no adult that, that any adult that's that like excited about something is full of it.
00:34:31
Speaker
Like they're not. Absolutely. I co-sign this a hundred percent. Like, and so it's like, i like even if like like i don't There's just a level of like you don't make any sense. like We're alive on planet Earth. like you What are you that happy about?
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. And we always reach... new territory. We do. We do. That's kind of our thing. Yeah. So, robb Robbie, this question is going to be two parts, but okay um when did you start making art?
00:35:07
Speaker
Like, around what, you know, what age? And also, what are what are some of the inspirations you have? um
00:35:17
Speaker
Like, i'm an only child, and so, like, I would have never guessed that. ah Yeah, same. i was in you yeah you don't you I was in church every week. And so like, I remember being given paper and a pen or pencil like at probably five or six.
00:35:35
Speaker
um And like, they didn't have quiet bags for my generation. i wasn't an iPad kid. Yeah, right. I remember like, my mom was part of this thing called Desk and Derek. And so like,
00:35:46
Speaker
you know we were We were not poor, but we like my parents couldn't afford daycare or childcare, so like my mom would have to go to these like networking meetings, and I would literally just be like at a booth in a restaurant like drawing, just because it's like something to do, be quiet and...
00:36:02
Speaker
like to be quiet and and and entertained like it was one of the many ways that I entertained myself so probably like once I started school so probably like around six or seven like I was drawing something um and then I think like the collage started in middle school like uh in sixth grade I was on yearbook and we like the end pages of our yearbook we did collage because we just had all these leftover pictures and so we did collage um
00:36:34
Speaker
this This kid I went to school with, he did a page and I was like, i was like this is so cool. um And I'd never really seen collage. And then it's like, at some point, I got this massive stack of National Geographic's.
00:36:50
Speaker
um good M.O. for sure. So I had like National Geographics from probably like the 40s to the 60s and the Kodachromes in it were just so good.
00:37:01
Speaker
And then you just start to like see, you just start to see collage like um and um I don't know like specifically like what I would have been seeing. um I definitely think that like a lot of the postmodern graphic design of the 90s involved collage. And so I think I just gravitated towards it and then like you know the irony like it was a way to be um like I don't I don't think I had it in me to be intentionally subversive but like I could I could just put things that that were funny you know like make and make myself laugh um and and entertain myself so like the collage probably started like middle school and then
00:37:52
Speaker
Yeah. Did I answer, did I answer it? Uh, you did. And then what are your, what are your some here like influences? Oh, um, i really love, um, like it's such a huge umbrella term, but like pop art.
00:38:15
Speaker
And I think like, um, um
00:38:19
Speaker
like Andy Warhol is kind of like a con artist, but like at the core of like his stuff is like egalitarianism. And I think like all artists, con artists to a degree. Uh, sure.
00:38:34
Speaker
um yeah, i like, but I think like an inspiration for me, like I really love the Eameses and I think it was them or or their contemporaries that like came up with like the best for the most or the best for the
00:38:50
Speaker
the best for the least for the most or something to that effect. We're like, they're taking like basic stuff and elevating it. So like, I really love like, and I've often like kind of wanted to challenge myself, like go someplace I've never been like a city I've never been to get coffee.
00:39:08
Speaker
Like drive. Like and when I say go to no city, like just drive like an hour in any direction and then like go into any store and just buy the basic stuff you can buy in like stationary. So like, and make art out of it.
00:39:19
Speaker
Like, I think just trying to, that's not an influence. Um, I, I just think like, kind of is though sort of like egalitarianism or like everyday things or, um, everyday experiences.
Artistic Influences and Philosophy
00:39:41
Speaker
um I really, there's ah there's an artist that I really love, Julie, and I'm going to butcher this, but I think it's Maritu. And she makes these massive, massive paintings.
00:39:55
Speaker
um And they're kind of like, some of them are just huge in scale. Probably my favorite artwork is um of hers, they have it at Crystal Bridges in Arkansas.
00:40:09
Speaker
And it is, I mean, it's massive. It's probably like six feet tall by 12 feet wide, something like that. It's just massive. Um, I'll have to like, I'm spacing on the, on the title and I don't want to get it wrong, but I'll, um, I'll, I'll message it to you guys after.
00:40:27
Speaker
and that's like probably one of my favorite things. And I also just love like repetition. Um, I love things that are like unlimited edition. Um, you know, I'm a huge, like Andy Warhol, like I already mentioned him, Andy Warhol,
00:40:45
Speaker
um fanboy. I really love um Roy Lichtenstein. I love Ed Ruscha. um Very much like mid-century pop art.
00:41:00
Speaker
I'm not as educated on like the British pop artists as I could or should be, um but like I really love like American pop art, I think is what I like. And then I think it's like jazz, like jazz like you you see something and you're like, oh man, that person painted it and then you're like, oh, this person was friends with that person or this person showed with this person. Right. Right. And you just, you just kind of like, I, I, I don't,
00:41:32
Speaker
I think like there's, I could be influenced by stuff I find at the thrift store and incorporating that into the art. um Totally. or just one I think that that, to back up a second, your idea to go to a new place and like just, if I'm understanding this correctly, get like a gas station level of art supplies. oh Totally.
00:41:56
Speaker
Totally. And I think that would be really fun. and jealous like i think That's really like experiential. Yeah. And it's like, um, and I've done that. Like, I mean, like for a while I was really trying to like mess with like the Avery dot labels.
00:42:10
Speaker
Um, and they're pretty ubiquitous as far as like art supplies go. Um, ah you know, like I'm not, um I'm only slowly like getting better at like drawing, but like, and I'm really intimidated by markers and things like that.
00:42:29
Speaker
um But definitely getting better. i mean, I feel like... Yeah, and I mean i think that's that that's that whole like talent, if I even have any. It's pursuit of interest.
00:42:40
Speaker
And that goes for like music or thrifting or anything. Right. right and And it's like, you know the one thing I know I'm good at or that I feel satisfied is thrifting. And I definitely have my like Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours.
00:42:54
Speaker
um no i like I maybe have spent 10,000 hours making... ten thousand hours making art because they're you know and i sure um but i gotta go to the warhol museum i have wanted to like um i i really it was pretty wild i mean it's like seven stories and it's like all his stuff i mean like i i went to moma in san francisco he probably in 2017, 2018. And I went into this room and it was all, it was, it was just full of like Alexander Calder mobiles. And like, I, I was like crying.
00:43:36
Speaker
Like I was just so awestruck by the beauty and like, I mean, like i i like I was happy, but I was like crying.
00:43:48
Speaker
That's the shit. yeah that's like That's what art does for people. People don't get it And it was just like, this is this is like, you know, like I personally believe in God, but like I can understand why people like feel that same spiritual connection to like seeing a piece of art. And I know like for me, like sometimes I really struggle emotionally and I get in my car and I drive and a piece of music gets me to that same spot.
00:44:11
Speaker
you know like i think that there's like i don't mean like divine but like there's some there's divinity in like art and i think that like totally totally it um it's connection seeking for me to make art it's attention seeking it's validation seeking um but it's also like tapping into like truth sometimes like and i was talking to math about this mad about this yeah it's like i can't i can't conversate what i'm trying to conversate like i can't say what i'm trying to say um all right all right like i'm i'm overwhelmed by thoughts or like anxiety or like um like i've i've done a lot of like work and i i definitely don't have the panic attacks i used to have but like
00:45:03
Speaker
I think it's like having an art practice, be it like for myself or for other people, like it's, it's a way to find and achieve mindfulness, um, where you just get yeah your head.
00:45:15
Speaker
Um, I think like, like an influence is like my own experience that like I've been able to get out of my head to be out of my head.
00:45:29
Speaker
And it's like therapeutic, right? Very much. And like, I, I, I'd be lying if I said I, I wasn't trying to get validation from other people, but like, I think as, as I have done more work, like the amount of stuff that I'm not showing people that I'm proud of that I just do for myself is like, is growing, you know, like um file and you know, like i
00:45:59
Speaker
I'm slowly taking what I do a little more seriously. And I like, i guess I'm being like honest, like I'm very flattered that you guys are talking to me like I'm an artist and it isn't that I don't take it seriously. It's just kind of, but you are an artist. You are an artist. Yeah. I mean, not even by like a generous definition.
00:46:18
Speaker
You just are an artist. Yeah. In the same way that like me making music, whether anyone hears or not, Other than like handful close friends.
00:46:29
Speaker
Like, I think, I think it's just like, and again, like not to like send myself in a spiral or or take this off, off the rails. But like, I think like it's that it's like, there's a weird level of like, like nobody wants to see art from somebody that isn't mildly self-deprecating.
00:46:49
Speaker
Like, If you're arrogant, if you think you're the best, like, I don't care if you are the best. Like, I don't want to see art made by a jerk. Like, I don't want to listen to music by, well, I can't say that.
00:47:01
Speaker
Because there's a lot of jerks that make really good music. It's tough you start going down that road. It's really tough. Yeah, but but but I mean, like, and i think there's also just just the level of, like,
00:47:14
Speaker
I don't even, I lost my thought there, but like, um, it's connected. Like, I think, you know, my influence is like connection seeking, like, um, and that I think is a good answer. Like that's,
00:47:30
Speaker
how you and i know each other. Like you now have drawn a picture of me that my grandmother thought was very amusing. Like that's like... was so fun. Like that whole, that process like was like make a funny face and you like nailed it.
00:47:45
Speaker
And it was so fun and like just challenging enough without being like insanely challenging to draw. It was so fun. Like, and I... it really kind of like stretched my abilities. Like it was really, it was really, really fun.
00:48:00
Speaker
I was, I was trying to do one thing and it didn't end up doing it, but I was like going to try to make a fake album cover. Like I just, I was listening to revolver by the Beatles, like on repeat. Like, I think I probably had listened to it like nine times in a row. And I was just like, the cover of this is just amazing.
00:48:15
Speaker
Um, you know i so So I asked like four people and then I was going to try to like have four people and then do all the little, but I was like, that's so much detail. And I just kind of probably had like a squirrel like and started messaging Matt about what people were doing at the thrift store that pissed me off.
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's worth, it's worthwhile to vent about. Cause it's like, to I mean, talk about connection seeking, right? Like everybody, yeah everybody can relate to the, like the asshole who is going down the aisle the wrong way. Yeah.
00:48:50
Speaker
Or just crap. Yeah. Just, just all that stuff for sure.
00:48:56
Speaker
um So I guess in that vein, like, do you find yourself blocked by like your creativity? You have like a writer's block. You have like an artist block, something like that. I don't know that i have like writer's block, but there are times when I sit down and I can tell that like, I'm trying to force it.
00:49:20
Speaker
Like, like sometimes something really great happens and then it's like, the The whatever is there isn't there. And like I don't believe in inspiration. like i I think you just have to do it.
00:49:32
Speaker
And like for every every halfway decent thing I make, like there's nine or ten things that are just garbage. um But like last night I sat down and Lauren and I were watching TV. And so I just had like paper and and some pencils. And I i couldn't...
00:49:51
Speaker
i couldn't I couldn't get to that like mindfulness place that I was trying to get. and it's like, I will push up against that. And if I run into that and I feel that way for a bit of time, I just stop. Because I'm like, this is... It's not worth it. like I'm just going to get frustrated. or It's like the adage's adage. you know like Love is like a fart. If you have to force it, it's probably poop. It's kind like that. I try to force...
00:50:17
Speaker
if i if i try to force a drawing out, it's I'm going to tell that it's just not not what i'm not what I want to make. right But I don't don't have like so-called writer's block.
00:50:31
Speaker
And I think like if i if I can't think of something to draw like there's or make, like there's just so many... like so many so there's too many too many things to there's so much visual stimuli um like you could just type anything into google and that's ah oftentimes what i do or ask people like i think that's a good exercise or just finding things and i i am not silly enough but trying to embrace silly like like i did with that drawing of you like connor make a silly face and i'm gonna try to draw it like and i really am trying to have fun and i think like
00:51:07
Speaker
the play aspect of it and like not taking it too seriously. um so that if it, when it starts to feel like I'm making myself do it, um, I just stop. I don't know if that answers the question or not.
00:51:20
Speaker
No, I think that's a great answer. And it kind of leads into like, have you gotten criticism for your work? Like have people, I feel like generally, you know, I know you very well,
00:51:34
Speaker
The people you connect with and and i mean online are like, they're pretty supportive. but has anyone I think that there's support. I think that like there's like just like um certain memes I'm only going to send to people that I know are at least going to take it like a joke. Like maybe it doesn't resonate with them. but like And I think there's certain things where it's like um I'm – I'm definitely going to turn comments off if I post certain things.
00:52:01
Speaker
Right. Right. I'm definitely only going to say, yeah. And it's like all that want to say I've said, so we're not going to have a dialogue about this.
00:52:13
Speaker
Um, and I think like, I think like I, ah for me, it's never really been criticism. I definitely think that there's people that I have wanted to get a particular thing or be as excited about a particular thing as I am.
00:52:29
Speaker
And you get the kind of like, Oh, that's cool. Which is always kind of like, it isn't criticism, but like, yeah, I feel like I think like early, earlier in me making stuff like,
00:52:42
Speaker
when I was doing it for validation, like you're not going to get that from another person. So it's like, I gotta, I gotta find a place where it's like, I like this. And if I like it, I, it's awesome if you like it too, but if you don't like it, like I don't care.
00:52:57
Speaker
And that's one of the only, it's one of the only times where it's like, I don't care. Like I care so much about what other people think that I think like the therapeutic nature of my art, it's like this probably, maybe this isn't for you and that's cool.
00:53:11
Speaker
um Yeah, yeah. I feel like that as kind of like an underground type of artist is totally common. You know? Yeah. Like, I know a lot of people that make like really rad fucking art and it's not for everybody. And that's by design.
00:53:27
Speaker
Yeah. And I think like it really, when I'm making the the stuff that I like the most, that I have the most fun doing, it's it's play. And I don't even...
00:53:40
Speaker
i'm I'm sure, Matt, you've gotten in this when you're playing. like you You know that you're playing, but you it's like you're almost like watching yourself do the thing you're doing. like You're just having a sort of out-of-body experience, or like you you wake up in the middle of, like I guess, jamming. like i can't play ah can't even play the radio, barely.
00:54:01
Speaker
But like you know you you get into it, and you're just in this in this flow state, like and um
00:54:13
Speaker
it's like you and whatever art you're making, like, and you really feel
00:54:19
Speaker
like, I don't know. I've never done drugs, so I have no idea what you're talking about. You just feel really good. I had someone a couple of days ago, um and a very old friend that I've connected with, or reconnected with.
00:54:35
Speaker
It was like, when do you feel the most yourself? And I don't care if it's like, me with my guitar and my shit little practice amp or on stage in particularly like I'm I am myself when I have my guitar in my hands and I am I'm doing whatever it doesn't matter if I'm just riffing or if I'm like performing it's just that like to me it sounds like your art is kind of the same way
00:55:08
Speaker
like Yeah, totally. It's holy i think like you being you and feeling and or it's likeing yourself and being yourself. um And it doesn't fucking matter.
00:55:19
Speaker
I'm not a control freak. but i And ah and so to like say, oh, I have control over it. like I think as adults, and the more adult you become, it's just like, I don't.
Art as Protest and Personal Satisfaction
00:55:32
Speaker
all I have is, is, is my voice in my little sphere of influence. And it's like, yeah this particular thing is bothering me personally, or it's bothering us corporately, or it's, um, bothering us, you know, like, and, um, like sometimes I think there's things that like you, that i want to make art about.
00:55:54
Speaker
And I'm like, I don't, I don't know how, I don't know how, you know, like with with the really terrifying things happening. It's like, um
00:56:07
Speaker
I'm not making art specifically about that, but it's like, I'm taking a break from that terrifying stuff in the art. Sort of like that art is in dedication to, or or in protest without being like,
00:56:24
Speaker
directly in protest, but it's like my own little mini protest of like, everything is bleak, but I just need some dopamine. So I'm going to create my own. Totally. Totally.
00:56:35
Speaker
I mean, that kind of leads into one of the last questions, which is like in 2025, what do you think the role of an artist is in society?
00:56:45
Speaker
Like the current hellscape that we're fucking living with. I, I think that,
00:56:53
Speaker
like art art can be anything and I think like it doesn't have to mean anything it doesn't have to it can it can mean all sorts of things and I really think that like what I said in the last for the last question like it it's it's an individual tapping into something that creates dopamine for them and then if they're lucky like that resonates with other people and if it doesn't they still got that that little bit of dopamine. yeah there's so many if so killers
00:57:28
Speaker
There's so many joy killers that like, and it's, it's kind of like that song. i don't know if you guys sing about like this little light of mine, I'm going let it shine. Oh yeah yeah. That's what I'm going to do. Like I can only, I, I, I don't have to change the world. Like I, I just have to change my own mind and I have to wake up each day and change my own mind.
00:57:44
Speaker
And if I can draw something or write something like that changes my own mind, maybe I can show it to Connor or Matt and like, you know, it, it, it gets them thinking like, I don't even have to necessarily say words, but like they can see something and think something.
00:58:02
Speaker
Um, and my art isn't really doing that yet. Um, or all the time rather, like, I don't, I don't think that I have a lot of like, messaging.
00:58:13
Speaker
I admire artists that do. um i admire I admire artists that have something to say. i think um
00:58:24
Speaker
we live in 2025, like the world is so um
00:58:31
Speaker
I mean this in terms of like the ability to create and people see your stuff, it's democratic. Like never before have have there been so many eyes, you know, like the entire internet is a gallery. Like you don't, it's it's it's like barriers have been broken. So like, I think the role of an artist in 2025 is to figure out, to keep to keep working.
00:58:55
Speaker
Like there's no such thing as bad art. So just just the role of the artist is just to make art
00:59:02
Speaker
as often as they can. Like, I mean, it's, it's sort of like art is a shield from the gloom, you know, like, Oh, holy shit. Like let it, yeah let it, let it shield you. And if you can build a big enough shield, let it shield other people too.
00:59:19
Speaker
Wow. You know, that's that dude. I've known to you a fucking long time. And that's one of the most profound things I've ever heard you say. Holy fuck. Yeah.
00:59:29
Speaker
And this is why we can't do clips of the show. I know. I know. I know. Cause it's like, we have nuggets of value in here. Um, but dude, I mean, I feel like we have to end on that. Like that's like, uh, yeah, that's, that's perfectly a perfectly tidy ending. Yeah.
00:59:54
Speaker
Cool. Well, it's been like a real pleasure. Like I was really excited. I was a little bit nervous. um I can't decide if I'm going to want to like, listen back to this or not, but see where you flattered big <unk> I'm going to be honest.
01:00:08
Speaker
This is Connor, our 89th episode, right? Something 83rd. a third Okay. Yeah. It's been three years and the amount of shows I've listened back to in full are like,
01:00:23
Speaker
not even a full hand. So yeah, I, yeah, I like, again, it's been a pleasure. I'm i'm very flattered and I feel like I'm joining like,
01:00:37
Speaker
the ranks of a lot of people I admire, including you guys. So, so thanks for the the honor and privilege of of getting to talk for. you we're just We're so happy you came on and they're like, and we got it working.
01:00:49
Speaker
This happened it's been so long. and So thank you. So great. Thank you guys so much. Have a good evening guys. Well, hang on just a second. Why don't you shout out your Instagram and whatever else you want for our audience?
01:01:06
Speaker
It is. Okay. So my Instagram is at Bob Dale. Um, My favorite internet person besides Matt is Anthony, and he's at Form Follows Function.
01:01:18
Speaker
Yes! I've been trying to get Anthony to come on for so long. and anthony thank you I get why he doesn't want to. i know, I know. But he's he's one of my favorite people that I've known. He's now so great. I really...
01:01:35
Speaker
um Another person I think that like, if you like this and you like clothes, like you should follow stack alley on Instagram, which Ali, Ali Asha. And I'm going to mess it up, but stack alley.
01:01:47
Speaker
Um, o ah um, I don't know. Like, I think that you should follow your local newspaper. Uh,
01:02:01
Speaker
Really? And you should give money to NPR. um Right. That's what I'm going that's what I'm going to yell out. All right. Hell yeah.
01:02:11
Speaker
Well, we are honored to have Connor in the show. So yes. Fucking go. for Uh, everyone, you know us, this is apocalypse duds. It's at apocalypse duds on Instagram. We have an email. Please send us an email. Still. No one has sent us an email. We've had like two. We've had like two. Yeah.
01:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, since we've been saying recently to send us an email. I know John at Gula Rama said he would send us obscene emails, which we haven't received a single email, obscene or otherwise.
01:02:46
Speaker
John, get on your shit. But I just got this email. I think I'm employed. So. Fuck yes. Very good. And thank you so much. I'm glad that we can make this work. Thank your son for the laptop.
01:03:03
Speaker
which I guess you probably provided. So thank you too.
01:03:09
Speaker
Thanks guys. All right. I am, I am Matt Smith at rebels rogues and I am Connor flower at Connor flower. And we will see you next week.
01:03:22
Speaker
Ta-ta.