Transcript
Conor Fowler: Welcome, welcome. Good afternoon. Today we have in the studio really a terrific writer who if you don't know about at this moment, you will probably know about in the future ah because I think that they show some serious promise, I guess, ah from what I have seen in the event.
Conor Fowler: So Julia Z. Kiesip, welcome.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's great to be here.
Conor Fowler: How do you do?
matt: Yeah, thanks thanks for coming on. how How's your Thursday going so far? Nice.
Julia Z. Caisip: um It's going well, yeah. I just got out of class, so.
matt: Nice.
Conor Fowler: ah How in class are you? Like, are you like from 8 a.m. to like 7 p.m. in class or are you like pretty well not in class?
Julia Z. Caisip: I have my schedule figured out for this semester such that um I actually have Fridays off entirely.
matt: Oh, shit.
Conor Fowler: Ooh, that's very good.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
matt: Yeah, good call.
Julia Z. Caisip: But yeah. Yeah. But like, my class, it's it starts at like 10 and ends at 2.
Conor Fowler: so that's not too bad.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: i was doing dumb shit. Like I was always taking 7.10 to 9.40 PM class.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, man.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Yeah, what why would you do that?
Conor Fowler: And it was just, I don't know i because I didn't, because ah because it made it so I didn't have to wake up early.
Julia Z. Caisip: Why would they let you do that?
Julia Z. Caisip: I guess.
Conor Fowler: It was just real Sophie's choice. And so I would have to be in the classroom just like into the dark. It was really terrible.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, man.
Conor Fowler: So I can't recommend that. But I wouldn't recommend doing anything that I did as a student if you want to be successful.
matt: ah So to ah to get into it, Julia, where are you from and where are you now?
Julia Z. Caisip: I am from Chicago. i consider myself a Chicagoan because I grew up here, but technically i was born in Glendale, California, which was a suburb of LA.
matt: Fuck yeah.
matt: okay
Julia Z. Caisip: But that has like no bearing on like my current personhood.
matt: Right, right. And yeah, Chicago is a fantastic fucking city. It's been a long time since I've been there, but I ah years ago, I thought about moving there for ah like very seriously.
Julia Z. Caisip: awesome. It's, yeah.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I only been one time. i think I would really like to go back. It's a hot dog city, which ah really appeals to me.
matt: Also, there's a pretty there's a pretty big Polish population there, too.
Julia Z. Caisip: We have great hot dogs.
matt: Right. I remember eating a lot of pierogi.
Julia Z. Caisip: yeah Yeah, definitely up on the north side. lot of Polish ah diaspora. um
matt: yeah That's cool.
Julia Z. Caisip: I went to, I will i went to, like, ah Junior high, i think you would call it. Junior high.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: um In like a high school on the north side where it was predominantly like Polish. so
Conor Fowler: Interesting.
Julia Z. Caisip: I feel like... yes i like I've like gone to like two or three different high schools like all around Chicago like for some reason like that I think had to do with my having an IEP, but I'm not 100% on that.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: But I've gotten a little bit of a sense of like the culture on all sides.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: That's cool.
Julia Z. Caisip: so
Conor Fowler: Yeah, that's like, ah I don't know, the purpose of the journey is not ideal, but it's probably rewarding.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: um
Julia Z. Caisip: Very much so.
Conor Fowler: Because I had a Polish professor, his name was Peter Gwiazda, and he introduced me to all kinds of stuff, really including like to writing as a legitimate ah pursuit, I guess.
Conor Fowler: So I always, and my mother's a writer, she's very fond of Sezla Milos, another great Polish writer. And so I think that there is much,
Conor Fowler: um I guess about like, I guess about like sadness in Poland that has created an amazing literary tradition.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, absolutely. i'm i I love... ah
Julia Z. Caisip: Speaking Eastern European like fiction, I i love Czech literature in translation.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: Like Rossum's Universal Robots. I believe like Kafka.
Conor Fowler: the
Julia Z. Caisip: um the or Or like the like classic picaresque novel. like that I keep coming back to this genre of picaresque, but the definitive one for chacha or Czech Republic would be The Good Soldier's Fake.
Julia Z. Caisip: I don't know if I pronounced that correctly, but yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, well, that's like the, that's like a, one of the main archetypes of that kind of narrative writing, right?
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: So, no, go on.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's, yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's very much... I read something about how, like, the Czech literary tradition had to be, like, created almost from the ground up in, like, the 19th century because, like, the language of the intelligentsia and the literati in those times was French or German or, like, ah
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: foreign language. So, in developing, like, like, in in developing, like, a unique, like, voice of their own, they had to, like, go back to the go back to the roots, go back to, like, the folk traditions that were present in, like, the farmlands and, like, the rural areas.
Julia Z. Caisip: So, like, you can see, like, um, my, like, my favorite, like, Czech opera is, like, The Cunning Little Vixen by Leo Skanecek, which is, like, a very, very provincial, like, opera that deals in, like, fabulism and, like for like, the oral tradition more so than, like, its contemporary, like, than its contemporaries would.
Conor Fowler: Hmm. Interesting.
Conor Fowler: Sure. So like less opera-y, I guess.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes. Definitely. That's kind of um so that's kind of the mindset that I'm trying to cultivate is like writing from like writing up, if that makes sense, like writing from like my own perspective upwards towards like a greater audience.
matt: Right.
matt: That's a cool way to to describe it. I guess I've never really like never really thought about that type of, you know, type of like language for something like that.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, that's like, it's a very, it's a very academic ah lens, I guess, which we, i don't know, sort of, sort of shy away from, I guess, but we kind of deal with it also.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I mean, it's sort of in a, it's sort of unavoidable when you're talking about clothing um
Conor Fowler: to be more. So I guess we're here now ah I met you as like an Ivy darling. I think you described yourself as an Ivy League darling.
Conor Fowler: ah
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
Conor Fowler: And so I'm wondering what drew you initially to that style of dressing, though you are not really super there anymore. um But how did that start?
Julia Z. Caisip: Definitely, um... It's, okay, it's to some degree the fact that it's, like, a very rigorous, like, system of dressing with, like, you know, correct, like, outfits and, and like, styles for, like, almost, like, every, like...
Julia Z. Caisip: Occasion or event or circumstance. Even now. Like i I feel like that's. Kind of an ethos that I've. Like developed with my wardrobe. Is to have. Like.
Julia Z. Caisip: I like to think I have like a cartoon character.
matt: you
Julia Z. Caisip: Mindset of dressing. In that I have. I dress almost the same way. From day to day. But then I have extremely specific outfits. For extremely specific circumstances. Like I still have my like.
Julia Z. Caisip: prom tuxedo, for instance, but okay, it was the system, it was the systematic nature of that. It was also because, um, like New new England is the literary heart of American letters, like John Cheever et al., and that, which is where I,
Conor Fowler: Right. Yeah, John Cheever has come up before on this program. So anyway, continue.
Julia Z. Caisip: yes, I'm not, I'm not surprised.
Conor Fowler: That's great.
Julia Z. Caisip: Um, it's just, And I think, like, there there has to be, like, there's, like, traditionally, like, you have to be, like, there's an expectation to be irreverent of, like, oh, why do we have to study old white men in English class?
Julia Z. Caisip: But I think that if you if you, like, that, like, that's, like, another part of my writing is, like, understanding, like, the tradition that you're working in without necessarily...
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: Having to like. Follow it. Rules by rules. But. the Like.
Conor Fowler: And that's kind of what you learn, right? I mean, that's what you learn as you get better at dressing.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
Conor Fowler: is is as And as has been said a million times, like you learn the rules to break them.
Julia Z. Caisip: Absolutely. It's just.
Julia Z. Caisip: I think. I'm more willing now to say. Like that. but That like I initially came to like. Ivy style in sort of a crisis of identity when I was like searching for like a more concrete sense of self.
Conor Fowler: e Well,
Julia Z. Caisip: um And i didn't, and like, if you were queer at that time, you were going to dress some flavor of like alternative, like punk or goth or what have you. So I, but I settled on like,
Conor Fowler: is that one hundred percent true
Julia Z. Caisip: it's, not it's It's not, but like like like the circles in which I operate i operated in back then, that's seen that was the dominant mode. And I was like, I'm going to like work against that.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: I'm going to try and like to some degree make myself respectable in a way that's still irreverent to the modern, to like the mainstream like way of dress.
Julia Z. Caisip: Like showing up in this like a suit and tie. Or something. Not... Like, partly because... Like, I am a pretentious asshole. But, like...
matt: hey the The best of us can admit that. You gotta be at some point.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes. You gotta to be. If you're not pretentious...
Conor Fowler: Well, pretentious just means choosy.
Julia Z. Caisip: Literally.
matt: Yeah, yeah. like
Conor Fowler: And there's nothing wrong with that.
Julia Z. Caisip: so
matt: yeah I understand that people use it as a pejorative, but I feel like the majority of people that do that have no understanding of what the word actually fucking means.
Julia Z. Caisip: Literally. it's it's It's like, at this point, it's like an anti-intellectual canard. Like this thing with performative male.
matt: Right. Right.
Conor Fowler: Hell yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
matt: I gotta say, yeah're you're giving us some amazing quotes and very early into this interview.
Conor Fowler: Hell yeah.
Conor Fowler: right Seriously.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
Conor Fowler: Seriously. Well, the writing, i mean, when I read, i don't know if I can talk about this. I mean, you sent me that thing I read. i just like was amazing. It was like really, really amazing.
Conor Fowler: um
Julia Z. Caisip: yes Yeah, okay the that's
Conor Fowler: And that, that like, come I'm sorry, very quickly. It's comes from observation, right? It comes from like being a good writer comes from being very perceptive and you are clearly extraordinarily perceptive.
Julia Z. Caisip: okay.
Julia Z. Caisip: That's exactly the mindset um I'm trying to like bring back to like fiction. you and Because like contemporary fiction... has a way of like becoming very abstracted.
Julia Z. Caisip: And that's kind of, i guess, antithetical to like the um like the idea of like like portraying realistic circumstances or trying to portray, I guess, like a human struggle.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
Conor Fowler: We have gotten pretty far from like human subjects bizarrely.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's
Julia Z. Caisip: just bizarre... bizarre this business this bizarre, like, um,
Julia Z. Caisip: like, I had read, like, this essay by Tom Wolfe, like, the great ah social critics, ah he called Stalking the Billion-Footed Beast, he essentially argued that, like, as a manifesto, that writing should get
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: back to like reporting on like the events of the world around around you and like oh and that it owes like a greater debt to like non-fiction and like realism than and journalism yeah that was the thing I was getting to is that Wolf was a journalist before he became like an acclaimed author and while you know I obviously I like ideologically oppose him on like
Conor Fowler: Yes. And like journalism.
matt: Thank you.
Julia Z. Caisip: a lot of grounds. I do think he was he he was into right here that he's in like approaching, I guess, the subject of writing as being like a faithful reporting of imaginary circumstance.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: See, yes. Like,
Conor Fowler: so I don't want to talk about my own writing, uh, at any length, but like the point I guess is to be descriptive and to like show everyone or nearly everyone something that I have seen, which in most cases is the poverty of the education system.
Conor Fowler: And like the closeness to that, trying to relay the fact that we don't have potable drinking water in most of these schools.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, yeah. No, but I can i can speak from like the opposite perspective. I went to like a kind of prestique kind of a, I guess he was the closest thing to like a prestigious high school.
Conor Fowler: I bet you did, because you're fucking smart.
Julia Z. Caisip: like
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah. um and it would it it it was like It's so prestigious. I'm not going to mention it by name, but if you but but there's like a system in Chicago of like selective enrollment high schools called academic centers.
Julia Z. Caisip: And they're all, and everyone who's like, went to an academic center, like identifies themselves by like the school that they went to.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: By their high school, which is how it is in Baltimore.
Julia Z. Caisip: Like even years after, even what after college.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Yeah, it's weird.
Julia Z. Caisip: And if I said i was from this particular high school, everyone was like, oh okay. So you're the snooty asshole of this among the snooty assholes. But
Conor Fowler: You don't seem very snooty, though. I mean, I i hate to burst your bubble.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, I mean, like, that that was the reputation for, like, the high school I grew up in. And, like, speaking from, like, you know, the poverty of education, like, the expectation to, like, perform in a selective enrollment high school is, like, psychologically, like, devastating.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's, there are, there de have been, there have been, like, ah actual, like, there there's been, like, a mental health crisis at that school, like, almost every year since, like, I graduated, so, which is to say two years, and, um,
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: I think it, read I kind of, like, reached to it like the apex of its, like, absurdity when I enlisted in, like, the academic decathlon team for that school, which play ah regularly places top 10 nationally in, like, the most prestigious fucking, like, student competition imaginable.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: there that's the That's, like, the point where, like, yeah like every day, you had to, like, spend hours after school rote memorizing things from, like, a big Like, PDF binder covering everything about a particular subject.
Julia Z. Caisip: Like, literally just drilling it into your head, like, Huckleberry Finn hornbook style, I would say.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Right. Right. I mean, there's, there's a reason why that like, you know, the gifted kid to like depressed person or, or whatever other neurodivergence thing has became a meme.
Julia Z. Caisip: It is a meme.
matt: It's,
Julia Z. Caisip: I i i saw this like tweet or something. Someone said it's like the intellectual version of like the ah guy who would have gone pro if he didn't break if he didn't pull break his leg in college play football.
matt: yeah but but Yeah, that's a great fucking way to summarize that, that or to, you know,
Conor Fowler: A little bit, yeah.
Conor Fowler: But I think that that, like, the the guy, the pro, like, the quarterback, whatever, i don't know. I mean, I guess it it's sort of the same delusion.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes. I mean, like, I'm... I've had to come to terms with that, like, on a very personal level, that, like, I'm not here now because of... Well, like, ah because, like, obviously due to some material circumstance, but also, like...
Julia Z. Caisip: like the like Like, where I am is like, a product of material circumstance, not my own shortcomings, necessarily.
matt: Right. Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: Is what I mean to say. And that's like something that you have to, that you have to grapple with if you're like dealing with like that burnout gifted kid narrative.
matt: Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: Really.
matt: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Like the world, the world that we live in at the current time fucks every single person over, ah you know, under a certain like income level essentially.
matt: And yeah, it's, it's hard to like, it's hard to parse, you know, having quote unquote potential or whatever with like, Oh shit, everything around me is fucking falling apart.
Julia Z. Caisip: I feel like the, I was, um this this is like the interesting thing. I was only admitted into the academic decathlon dkethon program because the coach took a specific interest in me and my writing.
Julia Z. Caisip: And I always held to myself that like, somehow, like I'm not an intellectual. I'm just somebody who's like,
Julia Z. Caisip: found the right words to say and the right authors to name drop and like I somehow can trick people into thinking that I'm an intellectual like because I like like if I like if I if I said like John Cheever at your appropriate time in context and people like oh fuck you're so smart you know John Cheever yeah
matt: Right.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: I've only read John Cheever write about drinking.
Conor Fowler: That's the only Cheever I have read.
Julia Z. Caisip: I've real.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, man.
Conor Fowler: Seriously, because I think it's in... ah Kingsley Amos has this book called everyday drinking, which is what it sounds like.
Conor Fowler: It is a manual about drinking and how to drink every day and how to drink all day and like how to hide your good liquor from your guests and serve them shitty liquor, you know, like only, only.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, yeah.
matt: What, wait, what if all what if all of your liquor is shady liquor? What then?
Conor Fowler: Well, then you probably shouldn't have any guests. but but Achiever I think opens that book actually or maybe it's in like an AA thing I don't fucking remember but in any event I thought he was a great writer
Julia Z. Caisip: He is... he is... i think... was Partly responsible for, like, the... like stereotypical New England childhood that's like plagued like American fiction like ever since.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Julia Z. Caisip: like That's been beaten to death by like David Sedaris and then Jonathan Franzen.
matt: Oh, Jesus.
Julia Z. Caisip: and Et cetera. And that's still like the modality through which like yeah have to process that you you have to process a lot of things in in the context of like literature.
Julia Z. Caisip: still because that specific worldview and mindset informs so much of like the tradition of like capturing what it is to be American like you have to you have you have to like I guess understand what it's like to be like a kid growing up in New England at some at some point
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: to be able to have to be able to reconcile it at all.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes, to be able to be able to, like, I don't know, even enter into the conversational, like, literary, like, like, to to be able to enter into the conversational literary sphere at all. Like, it's, it's it's good, it feels, like, absurd.
Julia Z. Caisip: um But, yes, every goddamn story is about a summer home, or, like, in the Hamptons, or
Conor Fowler: Gotta have a summer home.
Julia Z. Caisip: is about like these idle rich that have unfulfilling sex and like go like to different like global cities just off their ads. It's just...
Julia Z. Caisip: people say like they make a distinction right between genre fiction and literary fiction, and then you look at literary fiction and it's just as like contrived and as trite, like the majority of it is contrived and as trite as like anything that you would see like outside of that world because you still have to like grapple with the idea of writing autofiction, guess.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: It's kind of, uh, it's kind of remarkable, I guess.
Conor Fowler: We talk about uniform and we talk about like donning, whatever, right. your suit of armor, some call it. There is that,
Conor Fowler: that ties from the top of the show that ties that rigid way of dressing so like you have your military stuff you have like your tailored stuff but then also i mean goth stuff seems pretty regimented as well um and so do many other subsets uh subcultures of of clothing
Julia Z. Caisip: It all... Yeah, I mean... Like... Derek Guy struck it on the head... Like when he... Said that like... Dressing is about like... Some... so It's like a social language... Like an outfit is... Of like a... Any outfit... Like even if you dress unintentionally... Is going to call to... Some... Like... Time and place...
Julia Z. Caisip: that might be your own or might be like idealized, romanticized, and like displaced long into the past.
matt: to the right.
Julia Z. Caisip: And I think that's kind of, that's like, it's, that it's that like idealism that you have to like hold like within you, if if you want to be like a pragmatic, like a pragmatic dresser, like almost like,
Julia Z. Caisip: counterun counter-intuitively. You have to have, like, some idea. so Some, like, idea of, like, you want you you want to dress this way. You have to you have to know... Essentially, I guess, yeah when if you're dr if you're, like, pragmatically want to develop a sense of fashion, you have to be able to, like, live live outside yourself to some degree and see, like, what you want to look like and why.
Julia Z. Caisip: so um i me Because
Conor Fowler: I'm with you.
Julia Z. Caisip: the way subculture operates now, it's so much different than the circumstances that have like initially created like Goth or Ivy or Prep. It's not...
Conor Fowler: Yeah, it's so and it's all like ah referential kind of.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's all referential now. And so even like In the into space like I operate in, which I would most closely call ah subculture, which is to say the DIY scene here in Chicago, like even with this like you know like concrete like cultural, like I guess, did like these these collected like values and this whole insular idea of the in-group versus the out-group, even in that space, you still you still see people dressing
Julia Z. Caisip: All kinds of different ways, like
matt: Totally, totally. Which, like, i'm I'm getting the feeling that you and I are are pretty far apart in age. i don't want to put a number on it or anything, but, ah like, I came up in the punk and hardcore scene in Atlanta, and, like, you know, it was it was a lot of yeah why but you definitely had, like, a uniform that, you know...
matt: Dickies and um the tightest black t-shirt you've ever fucking seen, which is probably not the best idea that any of us ever had. But it happened. Oh, cool. oh cool i'm ah I'm a medium, but I'm going to buy a youth XL.
matt: um But when I see... I'm still involved in and that scene to an extent now, like after taking a bunch of years off. And there's just so much more fucking diversity of literally everything in it.
matt: Like, from... From clothing to like you know genders and and things of that nature, like way more representation of of non-white people in particular. And it's like, you know like yo, this this actually is possible to so like build your little community of a bunch of different styles of varying things, not just clothes. But like the clothes in particular is super cool to see.
matt: Because it's like, yeah, were not not every show looks the exact same anymore.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh man. um Especially now, like in the, in trans culture, specifically in the transgender culture in and around Chicago, as I've observed, there is like re, there's like a re-embracing of like a queer masculinity or like a butch masculinity that I, if like you asked me about dressing Ivy style, like back when it was like my weight mode of dressing,
Julia Z. Caisip: I would have definitely said something about requeering that mode of dress, which is which honestly I don't think has like a leg to stand on now, because like like the modality a queer masculinity to me seems to be firmly rooted in a working class sensibility.
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: And this is to say, like... um
Julia Z. Caisip: you write you read a lot of, like, work about, like, being, about being trans, and there's, like, ah there are these, there's, like, this expectation that it's some, that, like, I guess traditionally, and I guess in the old guard, that we're, like, policing ourselves and policing each other to, like, be, like, feminine to some extent, or, like, to dress with some sort of
matt: Right, right.
Julia Z. Caisip: intentionality towards being feminine, but, like, now that, like, that that now that, like, you can, you can, like, say, like, not, well, you you could say that, like, 10 years ago, but now that people are, like, starting to, like, re-embrace, like, the historical, like, ways of being, like, lesbian and transsexual and, like, the resurgence of, like, leather culture and and such, and
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: yeah there's definitely like that that philosophy of like pragmatically understanding like what you want to who you want to idealize and um like echoing through the scene.
Julia Z. Caisip: because it's not Because this queer it's not like femininity where it's based off of like the model of womanhood that is active and kind of consistently like represented in in the mainstream space. It's, like, based on, like, well, like, the, it's based on a kind of masculinity that's, like, thoroughly, like, documented in, like, archival photos to, like, the same degree that, say, like, an Ivy guy might, like, refer to, like, a Princeton yearbook. You see these, like, old black and white, like, clippings from, like, on our backs,
Julia Z. Caisip: And like the zeitgeist of like 80s and 90s lesbianism that people consistently refer back to with like the ah with the understanding that this is like the um like inspiration or the place that they're dressing from.
matt: Right. Yeah. I think like, you know, not having a monoculture in any of the spaces that, you know, us weirdos said very positively occupy. Like, it doesn't matter what scene that is. Like, it's a good thing that there are more, that there are more like ah ways of being,
matt: being shown to everyone. It's like, hey, we don't have to be we don't have to just be this way because that doesn't fucking make any sense.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, it's just...
Julia Z. Caisip: Honestly...
Julia Z. Caisip: i The like the like degree of snobbrydom that I still hold on to is like like... No matter like how you dress, you still have to dress with intentionality.
matt: Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, and so and some people don't give a shit about clothing, and that's also fine.
Julia Z. Caisip: And...
matt: But it's just not...
Julia Z. Caisip: That's fine, but
matt: Yeah, like, ah not something I can do. Like...
Conor Fowler: It's probably not true.
matt: I mean...
Conor Fowler: well Like you ask these people who say like, I don't care about clothes at all. It's like, so if I gave you like plastic briefs, you wouldn't think like maybe cotton would be better.
matt: I don't mean it in that way. i mean it in the context of...
Conor Fowler: Well, I do. i mean, it's like, you can be practical about it kind of.
matt: Well, yeah. i mean and I don't really think that that's possible in any regard. like i just I mean it more in the... like You're not putting thought into what you're wearing as a whole.
matt: like you know
Conor Fowler: Sure.
matt: For example... for example
Conor Fowler: You're not arguing about an outfit.
matt: Yeah, my my dad wears like a pocket tee and the world's worst Rustler Walmart jeans and the worst white dad sneakers of all time or work boots, depending on what he's doing, like every single day.
matt: That dude has I've seen pictures of him when he was younger in the 70s. Looked fucking cool. But, you know, as as he's gotten older and I think in a lot of this is, you know,
matt: Maybe on the older side of things. But he doesn't put any fucking idea or thought into, like oh, does this look cool? Does this look good? No, that's just what he wears.
matt: Which is cool.
Conor Fowler: Are the chicks going to dig it?
matt: Yeah, yeah. But like i think I think there are a lot of you know a lot of people, the the non you know non-hobbyists of clothing, like that's, you know oh, you know I got to go to the office today.
Julia Z. Caisip: Real.
matt: I'm going to put it on a golf polo. and a pair of khakis.
Conor Fowler: No, man. But they yeah there's reason behind all that shit, too.
matt: like I mean, there there is, but it, like...
Conor Fowler: I mean, I think there's thought behind it, so you can't say i i have no thoughts of it. You know, I have no
matt: Well, I mean, i don't know. i kind of think you can, like, you can... The only real thought is, like, oh, is this appropriate for the office? It's not like, do I look good in this? It's not like, hey do these pants fit well? Are they hemmed?
matt: And that's what I mean. Like, there's obviously going to be some thought, but it's not like, it's not like any of us where...
Conor Fowler: Well, I think they would claim that they put as a point of pride that they don't care about clothing.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
Conor Fowler: And the fact is literally every person wears clothing and has some thoughts about it.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh my god, yeah.
matt: Yeah, but... i Like, I'm not trying to be pedantic with this with this thought. I'm just saying that, like, the average person that that is doing what you're saying and...
matt: you know like i don't care about clothes. like their average The average person cares very, very little about how they look most of the time.
Conor Fowler: The lay person.
Julia Z. Caisip: When somebody says, like, oh, I don't really care how I dress to me, it seems invariably to be, like, to imply that, like, because you care about how you dress, that's, so like, you're, that's, yeah, that's gay or that's, like, bad, like, vain.
Conor Fowler: Gay.
matt: Oh, yeah. hundred percent
Conor Fowler: You're gay, you're weak.
matt: 100%. Right.
Conor Fowler: Right, you're too much evil.
matt: God, yeah, yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: Not even, not even talking, not even gay, like, like, fellow, like, I get from fellow, like, queers all the time that's, like, oh, I just wear whatever, in in a way that like is is meant to put me down for being, i guess, more of a dandy than they would be.
Julia Z. Caisip: But...
matt: Right, right. which is Which is bizarre, just in general.
Julia Z. Caisip: It is absurd.
Conor Fowler: And it is put down. It's like being, having any, I don't even want to say being proud of the way you look, having any type of thought about the way that you look at least for men for a long time was like, you're gay.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's...
matt: Or you're metrosexual, which is the the world's worst term that's ever been coined.
Conor Fowler: There's no, which is worse.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's...
Conor Fowler: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: I think so whole the whole like project of like cis masculinity has just like showed its hand to be extremely...
matt: Oh, yeah, 100%. Oh,
Julia Z. Caisip: With dress sneakers.
matt: oh the a the...
Julia Z. Caisip: like I want to bring up dress sneakers.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: like Because they're...
matt: The worst fucking trend that I can personally think of.
Julia Z. Caisip: They speak to me... They're like such a perfect encapsulation of the paradox of like modern... like cis masculinity because you know there there are women who like work in an office environment and they they don't need like dress they don't need like heel sneakers they either wear heels or like pumps or sneakers like women still have like femininity is like in if if you're if you're going to say like it's artificial like
Conor Fowler: right
Julia Z. Caisip: Femininity, especially, like, recently, is like in like, embracing this kind of artifice as, like, a pragmatic means towards, like, looking a certain way. Like, especially...
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: But masculinity is, like, stuck in this limbo between having to, like, project yourself as, like, top of the totem pole, like, like, power projection, and, like, just, like,
matt: Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: using your body as, like, a utilitarian vehicle to interact with the world. And because, like, these are, like, two, like, mo modalities that you can't, that can't compromise with each other, that can't, that you have to be consistently upholding that you, like, care about how you, care about how you look and don't care about how you look at the same time.
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: That's, like, kind of, like, the mindset, I think, that that's led to, like, the creation of a dress sneaker. I i would not...
matt: yeah
Conor Fowler: Yeah, well, it's like you've got to be professional, but you can't be too professional or they'll think you're a Swede.
matt: The dress...
Julia Z. Caisip: That's...
matt: You know, i mean I'm going to go on record and say that the dress sneaker is the physical equivalent, or sorry, clothing equivalent, I guess, of the mullet back in the day.
matt: Not a fashion mullet. Fashion mullet's going to look cool. But like, the Billy Ray Cyrus Joe Dirt mullet. That's exactly what it is to me.
Julia Z. Caisip: Literally...
matt: Ha ha ha!
Conor Fowler: let's like
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh my god.
Conor Fowler: Because there is a good side of that, right?
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Like there is the kind of mule, kind of ah like the half track, for example.
matt: Party at the front?
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
matt: The what?
Conor Fowler: You know the half track, right? It's half tread, half tire.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: ah That kind of thing, i feel like is good and has led to lot of innovation, but this particular mule ah is a bad one.
matt: Oh, it can definitely work. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
matt: It's business in the front and party in the back as a shoe. And like, that that's the worst.
Julia Z. Caisip: my yeah
Conor Fowler: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: My point on the dress sneaker being that it's like that's what you get when you take intentionality out of dressing.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: Because a sneaker has intent. A dress shoe has intent. This is just like...
matt: Yeah, it's an but it's an abomination.
Julia Z. Caisip: It's ridiculous.
Conor Fowler: It's an abomination. You heard it here first.
matt: ah All right, so transition transitioning. um So we can actually talk about what you do, which is right. um what How did you get started in that?
matt: and like has Has it been something that you've always done?
Julia Z. Caisip: I've, yeah, I, yeah, I've always, I've always taken an interest in writing. I remember, um,
Julia Z. Caisip: like, writing a lot when I was young, but, like, recently I've, like, rediscovered it in this, like, it sounds, like, silly, but, like, my friend invited me to, like, this D&D Invited me to participate in this D&D campaign.
matt: okay
Julia Z. Caisip: Over Discord. And i found. Out like after creating a character. I wanted to do more with them. Than just like role play them. For like an hour every week.
Julia Z. Caisip: And I started writing like. Little backstory. Lore posts to flesh out. Their like. Development and their like. Relations to the world.
Julia Z. Caisip: And i would keep. Posting. Like, writing prolifically. Writing more and more and just, like, can just to, like, explore, like, my inherent, like, curiosity that I have about, like, this character.
Julia Z. Caisip: Which, the game itself, it's, like, a Discworld-esque, like, steampunk, but not really steampunk kind of setting.
matt: Right. Okay.
Julia Z. Caisip: And, my and My characters was like... I intended them to be like this like merchant figure. And in examin in examining that, I was like, what...
Julia Z. Caisip: Examining like why why they would be a merchant. Part of the backstory was that they would... like They're like a disgraced merchant, specifically.
Julia Z. Caisip: So part of the...
Conor Fowler: Nice, a disgrace, Merchant.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes. So I was wanted to examine, like, why were they ousted from their trading company? What is are the broader implications of, like, the idea that um mercantilism is the dominant economic mode in this world and that it would inevitably lead to, like, capitalism and then late capitalism? Like, how would they grapple with that?
Julia Z. Caisip: um And i Those aren't really questions that you ask of in speculative fiction, but like i was drawn to exploring that kind of theme in ah in a very low-stakes context.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
Julia Z. Caisip: like like This is like just for the benefit of my friends. But I wrote so much that like like completely like optional, like supplemental material for my character, like other people...
Julia Z. Caisip: started worrying that they weren't doing enough. There was like someone who's like, oh shit, I haven't written enough lore for my character.
matt: Okay.
Julia Z. Caisip: And I'm like, you don't have to, the amount of lore you have to write for your character is precisely zero. It's zero. I'm doing this for fun. but ah But, so that's kind of, that's where like I cut my teeth on like getting seriously started in writing.
Julia Z. Caisip: And in college, I was initially on a CS linguistics track, but then
matt: okay
Julia Z. Caisip: got like pissed off at the CS part, I switched to a pure major in linguistics.
Conor Fowler: That sounds right.
Julia Z. Caisip: At that point, I was like so i decided to take like a creative writing workshop, which I hadn't like done since high school. And I had to like get back into the swing of... And everybody in that workshop was had a very...
Julia Z. Caisip: very specific and peculiar mindset, which was that the teacher would assign, like, a story that has, would mention, like, sex in passing, or, like, I think there was one where that had, like, literally three, like, instances of the word porn without further exploration of that porn or, like, gratification of that, like,
Julia Z. Caisip: And they would get, like, really, like, weirdly upset about having to read this gross sex story for class. And then turn around and submit these, like, super gory, like, grimdark, like, horror, like, like, horror fantasy, like, like, blood and gore, like, short stories, like, for, like, to to be, like, reviewed and...
Julia Z. Caisip: read in class. And I was like, this is like, that's like the, like American, like mindset about like sexuality, like that you can't talk about sex, but you can talk about like um everything else, all the violence.
Conor Fowler: Right. We can talk about cutting off heads.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: We can talk about just disemboweling all this, this rating really good.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: I was just, I was pissed off and I was like, I'm going to write, which is was an early version of the story that I sent to you, like, uh, to review Connor and that you, like, praised earlier in the show, but I wrote this, like, torrid, like, like, um, sex story that did, I, I wanted to, like, justify by, like, it's, by, like, not making strictly pornography, making it about, like, the presence that sex has in, like, the,
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: ah the T4T, trans tea transfer trans hookup culture that in Chicago, from my experience. um And i while while I was developing that, and I submitted an early draft of it for a workshop, I got an email from my teacher who said, Julia, come see me after class, please.
Julia Z. Caisip: And i was mortified.
Conor Fowler: but
Julia Z. Caisip: I was just like, absolutely... i was waiting in on the edge of my seat to be, like, chewed out. Like... So, like... i come... So I come to her, like, desk after class ends.
Julia Z. Caisip: I'm, like, seeing her, like, preparing to be, like, adversarial. And then she's like, I just wanted to say, like, this is really good writing. I think you have, like, a future in this.
matt: Oh, fuck yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah. Like...
Conor Fowler: Because it is seriously, Matt, you're going to have to read it. I mean, it's just like, it's very solid.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, I could, yeah, I could send you, like, a... Yeah, I could send you both, like, um like the latest revision as it stands.
matt: Oh, hell yeah. Love to read it.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, afterwards. i i'm thinking of I'm thinking about, like, self-publishing it at some point, but I don't know if it's, like, ready for ready to be presented the world in that way, but my teacher, like, saw that, I guess, potential.
matt: Cool.
Julia Z. Caisip: She was, like... had really high praise. He was talking about pursuing an MFA after college.
matt: Oh, shit. That's great.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah. um But...
Julia Z. Caisip: Okay, so that's so that's like when I decided, okay, I'm not like having fun in linguistics. I have like this talent like that I...
Julia Z. Caisip: would be better for me to, like, develop in, like, an academic context rather than just doing my own bullshit for my own sake.
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: I decided to, like, transfer to English and but continue writing, ah like, like ah in earnest.
Julia Z. Caisip: um So, like, my goals moving forward, an MFA is, like, on the table for me, but I don't see it, but, like,
matt: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: it's very easy to, for that to be like considered like the end in itself. Right. But I think while I'm working in a genre that like heavily demands that you like have that you're, you're operating at least in like an MFA and a culture of like MFA students, like to, in order to be like six, like,
Julia Z. Caisip: have your work be read and, like, exposed and stuff. Um, I don't think that it had that, like, just having an MFA is necessarily going to be what helps me develop my writing. I i think that's kind of, like, something that I have to do, like, on my own terms.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, i think I think it's a repetition kind of thing.
Julia Z. Caisip: Uh...
Conor Fowler: It's like you do it as many times as you can and then do it even more.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, i
Conor Fowler: on. so on
Julia Z. Caisip: I have a lot of like, because um I have a lot of like projects that i've work I work on for school, but then also a lot of like abortive, like ideas that I might work on at some point in the future.
Julia Z. Caisip: And it's been like hell trying to organize them because I give them these stupid ass names on my computer.
matt: oh
matt: I know this entirely because I do the same, like writing music and like, yeah,
Conor Fowler: Song one, song two, song three.
matt: it yeah yeah. Like, like riff, you know, and today's date or whatever. And then, you know, three months later when I go, want to go back and revisit it, if I didn't make it go somewhere, i'm like, fuck, what did i name that stupid?
matt: Like, what did I name that audio file?
Conor Fowler: that's what I've been spending the past like week doing is saving all the duds episodes and their audio in tiered folders.
Conor Fowler: Uh,
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
matt: and And Connor will tell you that I am the least tech-savvy person for the most part. Like, I can do the seven things that I do on my phone and computer well, but that's about it.
matt: And I'm like, all right, how am I going to – what am I going to do? Go through all the files on my phone and rename them shit? No.
Conor Fowler: Right, right, right.
Julia Z. Caisip: Literally.
Conor Fowler: On the iPhone. Well, so i have been sort of dying to ask you this question. I think it's a little putting you on the spot, but ah what do you think makes a good story?
Julia Z. Caisip: Okay, um i've I've spoken on like tradition unlike literary tradition already, but I think a good story, like jokes or like um campfire stories or whatever, any any like mode of storytelling is going to have like an or like ah tradition in which it operates, and that tradition
Conor Fowler: Mm hmm.
Julia Z. Caisip: will have set, like, certain standards and expectations for the genre, which yearre which I think ah good any good story is, like, absolutely, like, mine like mindful of.
Julia Z. Caisip: um not not Not, like, follows reverently, but is like, mindful of that those, like... um
Julia Z. Caisip: ah But not not not to say that it would follow it reverently, but that, like, a good story just keeps it in mind, so to speak.
Julia Z. Caisip: Um...
Conor Fowler: I think that that's fair.
Julia Z. Caisip: My... Yeah. It... My experience, like, writing, um...
Julia Z. Caisip: A good story, um...
Julia Z. Caisip: I always like structure my stories into a six-part traditional like plot triangle. And every single time that I've written a story for class, it's gone like way over the page limit because I feel like I have to like fill out that outline.
Julia Z. Caisip: And some sometimes I've been chewed out, for like um especially in workshop, where I've been told, like you can't be writing this much and expecting somebody to like read it and then criticize it for you next week and like that's fair but I think um because in in in the writing community like the metric for like how much you write is like oh how many words you added like today like how many words you added on to your story today or like tomorrow
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: When writers used to work by the word, you know?
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, by the word, yeah. Or, like like, people will be keeping track of their word count as, like, a measure of productivity. And I think that's kind of not, like, a mindset that is, that is, that, like, coincides with, like, the way that writing actually works and operates.
Julia Z. Caisip: um
matt: but also That also just seems like busy work to me. Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: It is busy. If you're just putting words on the, if you're just talking about putting words on the page, I can put on,
matt: yeah
Julia Z. Caisip: a billion words on the page and they they don't have to make fucking sense or like have any coherence to them.
matt: right
Conor Fowler: what Isn't that the thing? Like, uh, 50 monkeys can type Shakespeare. This is a thought experiment, but it's like, obviously they could put countless letters onto the page, but like, who gives a shit?
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, but, but like the mindset of just like putting something on the page is good for a first draft or like a draft where like you want
matt: Yeah, totally.
Conor Fowler: You
matt: Totally.
Julia Z. Caisip: Or like in the very preliminary stages when you just have to get something on the page so it's not a blank page.
Conor Fowler: just have to get it done.
Julia Z. Caisip: But I find it so odd that like people are going to be like, yes, I reached my word count today.
Conor Fowler: which I finally have realized.
matt: Yeah.
Julia Z. Caisip: And everyone's like, oh, great job.
matt: Yeah, it's not.
Julia Z. Caisip: Like that, okay, then you have to still work on that.
Conor Fowler: Is that a thing like measuring, like measuring water? Like I've drank 50, 48 ounces of water today. like demarcated water bottle.
Julia Z. Caisip: I remember when that was the only thing with like the Hydro Flasks and everything. but yeah that It's it's not it's like not a useful metric of like writing productivity, I think.
matt: right totally
Julia Z. Caisip: A good story like because ah it has nothing to do with length. like As somebody who writes like pretty...
Conor Fowler: Of course.
Julia Z. Caisip: like um long like comparatively long stories for like the form that I'm expected to work in. um eyes I'd say it's,
Julia Z. Caisip: um
Julia Z. Caisip: does what it into what it intends to do in the like space that it provides for itself. If that makes sense. Like a medium is a message thing.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: Like the, yes.
Conor Fowler: McLuhan. McLuhan comes up on this show sometimes, too. It was just in this. Oh, I was watching this. I was and I would recommend this documentary, actually, about cop watchers.
Conor Fowler: Do you know anything about this?
Julia Z. Caisip: ah No, I'm not familiar
Conor Fowler: So, like, they just some of them just document police when they see them. They take out their phone and they're filming them. Like, how are you doing today, officer? Like, what did you eat for dinner, officer? Like, this kind of shit. Some of them are like, officer, is that alcohol that I smell on your breath?
Conor Fowler: And they go that direction.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh
Conor Fowler: So, like, some of them are really provoking. But some of them are just kind of monitoring, right? Because the police should be monitored. And so the question comes up, like, medium-sized.
Conor Fowler: what is the medium or the message like they have McLuhan. There's like a McLuhan interview that they that they sampled for the documentary. And it's the guy who made the documentary was ultimately saying the message of the cop watchers is sort of irrelevant. It's they're doing it.
Conor Fowler: That is the point. Right. And then in that case, the medium is the message.
Julia Z. Caisip: So true. So real.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: All right.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
matt: So, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, I wasn't saying anything. I just said, yeah.
matt: Oh, gotcha. So we're going to add this question to, I think, every interview going forward. Thank you, leisurely loafing John loafers for suggesting this.
Conor Fowler: e Nice.
matt: But to close out, Julia, what are you wearing in the apocalypse?
Julia Z. Caisip: In the apocalypse. Okay. I'm going to go with like a mod style quadrophenia thing of like a like a nice sharply tailored Italian suit layered with a parka on top because you need that parka
matt: Nice. Yes. Yes.
Conor Fowler: Nice, it's the park again.
matt: i I'm pretty sure the fishtail parka is in the lead with this question so far.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, fishtail parka, but then the suit, very important if you're going to be diplomatic to like all the other like wandering tribes and bandits that are like in in the apocalypse.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Conor Fowler: Right. Right.
Julia Z. Caisip: You want them to like approach you.
matt: Yeah, it's true. Yeah, you got to look your best in the apocalypse. Like when when she when shit's on fire around you, you got to be like, hey guys, I'm trustworthy.
Julia Z. Caisip: You gotta.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, and and then you still have that grit aspect with the parka. grit aspect
matt: Yeah, exactly.
Julia Z. Caisip: like with the with the park ah
matt: Sadly, I don't know if there's going to be Vespas or Lambrettas in the apocalypse, but, you know
Julia Z. Caisip: I feel like a Vespa is very well suited to an apo to apocalyptic conditions.
Conor Fowler: Well, I think with us,
matt: It is. It's true. It's true.
Conor Fowler: I think the saddest thing though is it's going to be hot.
matt: No,
Conor Fowler: Right? So like all of our like layered outfits are like going to be whatever. We're going to be wearing a fucking pocket tee.
matt: no. I don't think so. and And as I've said before, you can use the parka as like a tent shelter if you need to, because it's so fucking huge.
Conor Fowler: Well, then in that case, you wouldn't be wearing it.
matt: No, I mean, you you take it off and put it on some sticks at night, and then you put it on to survive the, I don't know, the sandstorm the next day.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: You wouldn't be sweating.
Conor Fowler: You could use pool cues, Matt, so that you'd be prepared.
matt: You could use pool cues.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
matt: God, yeah, if I've got a table in the apocalypse, I'm good to go.
Julia Z. Caisip: Oh, yeah.
matt: ah Anyway, Julia, thank you so much. This has been super fun. um Please shout out your various social media accounts, Instagram, whatever you want to.
Julia Z. Caisip: Okay, um, my Instagram.
matt: if you If you want people to follow you.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yeah, my Instagram is sartorial fantasy box. No caps, no spaces. Um, my Discord is findanegg, no caps, no spaces.
Julia Z. Caisip: Um, my Tumblr, if you care to follow me on Tumblr, is normalbow, B-E-A-U, no caps, no spaces.
Conor Fowler: Hell
Julia Z. Caisip: Um, I want to give a shout out to,
Julia Z. Caisip: um shit Okay.
Conor Fowler: yeah!
Julia Z. Caisip: Give me... Oh, and no. Yeah, I got it. I want to give a shout-out to my high school English teacher who got me into writing in the first place.
Julia Z. Caisip: but like
Conor Fowler: hello
matt: Hell yeah!
Conor Fowler: yeah
Julia Z. Caisip: Mr. Joseph Scotties. Absolute beast. I had him the last year before he retired. But that's that's ah that's like It was a major inspiration for me, major influence on my wanting to go into the humanities at all.
matt: Fuck yeah. That's one of the better shout-outs we've had on here. So...
Conor Fowler: Well, that's great. We love teachers on this program.
matt: Anyway, um everyone, thank you for listening.
Julia Z. Caisip: Yes.
matt: We are at Apocalypse Duds on Instagram, apocalypseduds at gmail.com. If you would like to shoot us an email or a meme or fucking anything.
Conor Fowler: Send us a virus.
matt: so Please don't send us a virus.
Conor Fowler: I mean. i
matt: Please don't send us a virus. Fuck you, Connor. ah if
Conor Fowler: send us some malware.
matt: Yeah, yeah. so Send us the the world's weirdest Facebook marketplace find you've seen. um There's put
Conor Fowler: That would be nice actually.
matt: There's plenty of them. Maybe we'll start a series if we get enough. Anyway, I am Matt Smith at a Rebels Rugs.
Conor Fowler: And I'm Connor flower at Connor flower.
matt: And we will see you next week.
Conor Fowler: Ta-da.
