Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Trench Coat Struggles with Sven de Lance
135 Plays13 days ago
Yet another overqualified guest! In the studio this week, after much evading, we have, dear friend, Sven de Lance. Aside from his great street style blog @coup_de_lance, we talk about Brazil, Germany, Berlin from a few angles, skating, August Sanders, Yohji Yamamoto, lived in clothing, the “Poppers,” trench coats, Colombo, and more, on Apocalypse Duds!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another episode of Apocalypse Duds. I am your co-host Connor Flower. and I am Matt Smith. we have a ah We have a new guest in the studio today.
Guest's Instagram and Relationship with Hosts
00:00:17
Speaker
that would be then friend of mine. a long while and we have been talking on Instagram. I think that our friendship predates the show actually.
00:00:30
Speaker
And so um we finally wrangled him onto the show. he has a great Instagram with amazing street style and other photography generally around Berlin and Bologna. So I'm very happy to have him on.
00:00:50
Speaker
Welcome. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, yeah. How's, how, uh, wait, what time is it, uh, where you are right now? Um, it's quarter past 10 in Berlin.
00:01:04
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I thought. So yeah. Thank you for, thank you for staying up late for us. And, uh, yeah. Stoked to have you on the show. Thank you so much.
00:01:15
Speaker
Of course. Of course.
Cultural Identity and Citizenship Choices
00:01:16
Speaker
So, uh, you're in Germany, wait Where are you from originally and and where do you reside now? I was born in Brazil. My parents lived there in the in the late 70s, but I didn't grow up there, unfortunately. So my four parents went back to You say unfortunately. Unfortunately.
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it would have been a nice experience to learn the language and grow up in and a warmer country. That didn't happen. Oh, for a certain. Yeah.
00:01:52
Speaker
Have you been to Brazil like in your lifetime, though? No, i haven't I haven't been there yet. Gotcha, gotcha. I have lately been considering getting the citizenship again because oh I had to give that up at a certain point when I turned 18. Is that a german is that a German law? yeah that used to be a German ah german sing that you cannot have a duel
00:02:23
Speaker
citizenship And I think that recently they have gotten rid of that. But when I was growing up, it was still obligatory to kind of make a decision when you turn 18, which passport you want to keep. And so, yeah, recently I've been thinking if I should
Fashion Influences and Personal Style Evolution
00:02:44
Speaker
get back that um Brazilian citizenship just as a safety deposit in case the war escalates in Europe and
00:02:55
Speaker
You want to get your country. oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah And it wouldn't be the first German to go in that direction. Um, yeah
00:03:07
Speaker
so where did you, did you grow up around Germany? I mean, I grew up in a small town, Northern Germany. Um, and then when I, uh, when it was time to take up studies, I went to Berlin.
00:03:27
Speaker
And is that kind of a path like is that kind of the a path in Germany? Like people people are all trying to go to Berlin because it's like – I know that Munich is quite large as well, but ah the, I guess, capital that the youth want to go to?
00:03:46
Speaker
not sure. I mean, it it was when I when i was 18, 19 – eighteen nineteen It was, um, it was a good choice to go to Berlin because at that time it wasn't an interesting, a city where the rents were cheap and things were happening.
00:04:03
Speaker
I see. Right. I'm not sure that's still the same situation today. Um, there are several universities cities in Germany, so people can also go to different, uh, different cities.
00:04:19
Speaker
Um, so yeah.
00:04:23
Speaker
So what kind of style did you see growing up like ah around Germany and I guess also in Berlin as a young person? ah and so ah from my from my childhood, I remember ah seeing farmer people, farmers dressed in sort of a British, British style.
00:04:49
Speaker
That was still, that was still, um, a normal way to dress for farmers in, in the 80s. Like a kind of, uh, British country, like barber jacket, tweed style farmer. Yeah. That, that sort would like flat cap and, um,
00:05:08
Speaker
tweets Sort of aristocratic farming. Yeah, maybe more more rugged, not not too aristocratic, but yeah. it it was At that time, it was still um it was still a ah look that you would see quite often in the countryside.
00:05:26
Speaker
um
00:05:29
Speaker
And then i when i was a teenager, I started with skateboarding and listening to punk and hardcore music. So I guess that was a completely different
00:05:47
Speaker
style that I discovered there. I also, oh yeah, that's also an interesting thing that remember. There was a British military base in my in my hometown where I grew up. So I saw British soldiers very early on. And maybe that was also and and and an interesting style to discover as ah as a young boy. Yeah, yeah. that I feel like the ripple effects of like...
00:06:18
Speaker
seeing, you know, military kind of stuff early on, like camouflage. um And then also, you know, there's a lot of crossover with punk and hardcore and skateboarding. So like, I don't know, in like, even if you don't realize it at the time, I feel like it just infiltrates your brain and kind of becomes like an influence you might not even have known you had, you know, back then.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, know absolutely. And then, of course, also movies had an impact on me from early on. I remember that when I got home from school, pretty much every day I ended up in front of the TV for two or three hours watching...
00:07:06
Speaker
uh serious and film noir um this was uh this was a thing that at that time if you were watching in the afternoon one of the three tv channels that you had um there was always uh, film noir ah playing in like a loop.
00:07:27
Speaker
yeah Like there were, Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. That's really. Cause like, I think I don't, I don't know that Turner classic movies even exists anymore. Like, I don't know where you would go to find that.
00:07:39
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. Um, the TV stations at that time, they, Apparently they had a better taste than they do today. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:51
Speaker
Well, we we got soap operas and like marginally good cartoons for the most part. so I feel like film noir wins that one out for sure. For sure.
00:08:02
Speaker
I wanted to return to the soldiers quickly. like What was your attitude towards them, I guess? I don't know.
00:08:14
Speaker
Not like it was adversarial, but I just mean like in America, there's this idea that soldiers are like superheroes basically.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, so I was maybe... ah This was when I was between six and 12 years old, something like that.
00:08:39
Speaker
So there was not too much um contact between the the German population and the British soldiers, unless you were working in a shop or in a restaurant or had some kind of business with them.
00:08:55
Speaker
um They lived in a and a separate part of the of the town. We would sometimes see them as schoolboys when when they when we were using the swimming pool and they were there and they were all tattooed.
00:09:11
Speaker
so he So this is what that I'm talking about. Yeah. So it's like they have kind of come and they've delivered this – to you, I guess, like the tattoos and the uniforms.
00:09:24
Speaker
It just is a, I don't know. It's like, it is sort of an invasion, right? But it's not ah as such. who They're occupied, right? Occupation.
00:09:36
Speaker
ah Just out of curiosity, like, were there were there British kids that you, like, were in your classes at school or did they have their own shit on on base? Yeah. Yeah, I think they had their own schools. I don't remember.
00:09:49
Speaker
um i don't remember meeting ah ah a British kid in my school. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Probably for the best.
00:09:59
Speaker
um This is a big question, but I i have asked a number of our other German guests this.
Historical and Cultural Fashion Influences
00:10:07
Speaker
What is German style if there is such a thing?
00:10:12
Speaker
There is no such thing. I don't think that exists. i I mean, as a as a historian, one could say, um take take the photographs of August Sanders, for example, um famous photographer ah from the I believe. made twenty s thirty s i believe so he made this um book where he would photograph people real people in their work clothing so the whole the whole class society of the
00:10:56
Speaker
of Germany of the early 20th century. He would take photos of the the working people, the soldiers, the intellectuals, even the ah revolutionaries. There's an interesting photo of Erich Mühsam, an anarchist of the time.
00:11:17
Speaker
um Also the advocates, um the capitalists and and so on. he He would take photos of um the different classes and how they dress and how they look in their clothing.
00:11:33
Speaker
as ah as a photographic um representation of the ah class society of the early 20th century. And so this is, in in my recollection, the closest um to
00:11:53
Speaker
finding documents where you see a German style, which is distinct from from other nations' styles. They're really cool photos.
00:12:06
Speaker
I'm looking at them right now. I'm looking at some of them in any event. And yeah they really have a lot of like swagger. Yeah. Like there's this, there's this boy with ah like a vest and a newsboy cap on. And he has like, like a pallet of bricks over his shoulder.
00:12:28
Speaker
oh shit. That is a great photo. Yeah, there's some really, really, really, really great work in here. And so I think, I don't know, I mean, maybe this hasn't continued in, or it has to have continued right into the present day Germany, just in terms of inspiration. There's this, um I don't know if you have seen it as this film by Wim Wenders about Yoji Yamamoto.
00:12:54
Speaker
And in in the film, Yoji,
00:12:59
Speaker
is also carrying with him this ah photo book by Sanders when he goes on into the studio to um to work on clothing with his team.
00:13:13
Speaker
And some interesting things he he says about it and and why it's so inspirational to him. Oh, that's really cool. And I don't know if I can ah remember it word by word, but I guess the meaning is that the the photos they show people in clothing that they lived in, you know, it's not, um, it's not fashion. It's not, uh, style. It is, um, clothing that define the identity of people in the, in their class.
00:13:48
Speaker
Um, and it's really clothing that people lived in every day. And this is something that you can also, see very clearly from from the photos, you know, they are.
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And they're all it looks like they're almost all all of them I see are in black and white, like they're really striking. They're amazing portraits.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good photo book. Yes. And I see you talking about it. um The men of the 20th century
00:14:29
Speaker
So we we have also heard whispers of something ah Frederick Wetzel called German, quote unquote, German Ivy. um to do you Do you have any thoughts on that? Do you see that? Or, ah you know, don't don't dispute the claim, but yeah, give us your take.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah. Honestly, I haven't thought about it before and i and I hear this for the first time. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, so like, what's the school and what's the, what's the Harvard of Germany?
00:15:05
Speaker
Um, the Harvard of Germany. Um, well, I guess it can't, it's sort of, yeah, I guess that's complicated. I mean, I have no idea if we have that kind of Ivy school system in Germany.
00:15:20
Speaker
um I guess there are business schools where the elite goes to, um, I don't even know their names and I don't want to know them. Um,
00:15:34
Speaker
and it's just, I mean, um, uh, there's I remember in the 80s, there was this youth culture called poppers um and they were kind of the um the antonym of ah punks.
00:15:52
Speaker
So um they were like dressed nicely, kind of like yuppies with Lacoste shirts and they would listen to poppy synth music and um behave, behave upper class.
00:16:09
Speaker
Poppers? Poppers and punks. Like they're interested in the pops? No, like they were listening to pop music, you know? Yeah. yeah yeah So, um, I mean, this doesn't answer your question, but this is, um, uh, maybe, maybe, uh, it's a different, it's a different structure. Yeah.
00:16:32
Speaker
And like, there are there, are there private schools in Germany? Like, are there enormous private education institutions? Yeah. Uh, like on, on a university level, I'm not sure.
00:16:46
Speaker
Yeah. then Yeah. I guess they exist. There is, for example, yeah. This in Berlin is a private school for, for economy. Um, it does exist. Yeah.
00:16:59
Speaker
Um, I, I, had to work in one of them for, for some shifts when I was working in, um, I was,
00:17:10
Speaker
jobbing and culture services jobs. And I had to make some shifts in one of those schools. And so this is something I can i can think of that comes close to um private private schools for upper class. Yeah.
00:17:29
Speaker
But yeah, I don't think there's a distinct way that they dress or at least it's not it's not interesting. It's not a good style. Right.
00:17:42
Speaker
right do I mean, how much, you know, how much Taylor? I guess when I when i think of, I mean, I'm not an expert, but when I think of Ivy, I think of this you know, the the the peak time of Ivy, the 50s to 70s, a style that was developed in American universities, also in a way to um subvert standards, following standards, but at the same time subverting them.
00:18:13
Speaker
And I don't think that the standards have existed in such a strict way and in Germany, as far as like I know. so Maybe that's one of the reasons why there was not ah
00:18:27
Speaker
a youth take on a convention of dressing. guess, yeah, that that makes sense. Especially like post-war in you know the 50s and 60s when Ivy was really in its heyday. you know that like Germany was was rebuilding and restructuring and all of this.
00:18:47
Speaker
so it It kind of makes sense. I guess, yeah. Yeah. Do you see, I mean, like on it any given day in Berlin um or Bologna, do you see, um you know, good tailored stuff or, you know, is it kind of like gone the way of things in the States where...
00:19:11
Speaker
you dress or whatever dress casual you know the polo shirt and ah a fleece vest is is kind of the norm well I guess ah you see tailored stuff more often in in Italy than you do in Germany um I'm I guess yeah in What's been really popular in Northern Italy was the influence of imported British clothing. So this has been um to the 90s, I think it has been very much a uniform for people with taste, people with a certain age that they would dress.
00:20:05
Speaker
Shetlands, tweed, duffel coats, you know the whole British uniform. um Because the weather is similar in and northern Italy, it's quite wet.
00:20:23
Speaker
Used to be swamps in that area. So you can still have that humid, cold climate in the winter months. And there has been an import of a British knitwear and British fabrics from early on. And so in in every northern Italian city of a certain size, you had ah an old England store until, ah well, until maybe 15, 20 years ago. This was totally, it was totally normal.
00:21:01
Speaker
And um And this is something that you still kind of, um, there's still an echo of that culture today when you, um, visit Northern Italian cities, um, in the colder months, you can still see a lot of, um, older men dressed very, very well in a British way.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah. That sounds, sounds fantastic. Yeah, and it was also kind of a very, very interesting thing for me to see when I and i lived in Italy for two years. um That's about seven years ago, i think it was. um i i hadn't i hadn't seen the density of well dressed men.
00:21:51
Speaker
in that way and in in Germany. So this was a revelation for me. And and I think this ignited also my interest in class classic clothing, casual classic clothing.
00:22:08
Speaker
Hell yeah. I mean, Berlin has to be a pretty fashionable city, right? they have a There is a Berlin Fashion Week. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, is it just... Is it more of, like, a niche thing and you just don't see, you know, don't see people out and about wearing, like, cool shit all the time?
00:22:33
Speaker
yeah I mean... In Berlin, it's very it's very street style, I think. um yeah I imagine lots of black. and I don't know why, but Berlin has always struck me as like a ah very like electronic music-based city, which I've never been there.
Street Style and Seasonal Escapes
00:22:51
Speaker
Could and'd be very wrong about that. But I feel like there there was a big electronic scene you know for a very long time in Germany, and Berlin in particular. so um'm I'm imagining Matrix-type shit.
00:23:05
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah For better or worse. For better. I mean, that's like timeless. I feel and a way. i mean Also Yochi Yamamoto.
00:23:17
Speaker
Like, you know, I could, I could see people rocking Yochi stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That certainly that exists. Yeah.
00:23:27
Speaker
yeah It seems like from your photos, you're a lot of times driven and like inspired by like older people dressing in in a little bit more of a, I hate to use the word classic, but a classic kind of way.
00:23:44
Speaker
and yeah, like i I guess, yeah, you're not really seeing that type of stuff in in Berlin nearly as often.
00:23:55
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there's a few shops that kind of um sell it, but I think it's very much a West Berliner upper class thing to dress British.
00:24:10
Speaker
Gotcha. Yeah. And so in the area where I live, it's not it's not a very common way. to to dress up and tweet.
00:24:21
Speaker
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's not at all common here, like in Baltimore. i don't really ever see anyone um wearing a tie even. Yeah.
00:24:39
Speaker
I mean, I don't I don't wear a tie either. And I don't wear I don't wear tweet other than for very, very special days where I feel very brave.
00:24:50
Speaker
Um, a well, it's like, it's an old person thing. And so when I do see that kind of style, I see it on old dudes.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, I guess old women as well have, have like wool jackets. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
00:25:13
Speaker
knitwear i i mean i go i go all the way i wear knitwear all winter and i love it you do you're very you're a big lairer yeah am i but it's like you have to be right it's fucking cold yeah yeah Yeah, it is cold.
00:25:35
Speaker
That's why I usually um escape during winter and I go to Italy because it's not just cold in Berlin. It's also very gray and you get this, you get this lack of vitamin B because there's no light. so you get depressed.
00:25:53
Speaker
Oh yeah. If you can, you, you better leave the city during the winter months. It's unbearable. Sounds right. Yeah. I mean, considering it's like 9,000 degrees outside right now, that sounds pretty wonderful.
00:26:07
Speaker
But yeah, the the grayness of it would definitely not be fun. No, that's not. How's Baltimore instead? How's the winter there? It's, I don't know, it's unpredictable. Maryland has like, because it's a coastal state, is has unpredictable weather. So occasionally we'll get lots of snow and occasionally we'll get nothing at all.
00:26:31
Speaker
Hmm. I was going to say, i remember you get you trying on all the trench coats. Is that right? You had a you had it you were on a trench coat mission? Yeah. um a and just I just get excited when I see them on other people, especially on older guys.
00:26:52
Speaker
And I guess it's the most challenging. common most often worn classic piece today that you see in the street. And that's a good observation. I think that's right.
00:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, and i mean, I've seen some that were so good and it just struck me as such a classic and amazing piece because it totally changes the silhouette of a of a guy.
00:27:24
Speaker
And it doesn't matter what kind of body you have. If you don't need to have a perfect body, you will still look amazing in ah in a trench coat as long as it is not too small.
00:27:37
Speaker
It should not be too small. when it It gives that kind of sculpture-like quality to um to a silhouette because you have the drape you know and the, what do you call them? the Okay, I don't know the word.
00:27:58
Speaker
um But yeah, it's, I mean, this is great. I guess, okay. It's great variety of Burberry coats, especially in Italy. And it's, I just get excited every time I see one and I take a photo and I'm happy.
00:28:17
Speaker
think it The Matrix has already come up, right? Like the Matrix is was famous or infamous for the trench coats. um And that extends to the Columbine and mass shootings in America. Like the trench coat is a very, very, very ah diverse garment, let's say.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, especially and and especially in leather or vinyl, what whatever you want to call it. Right. Or in snakeskin, as is seen. Or snakeskin. Yes. Yes.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah. and Yeah. It's also such a such a movie, ah so such a piece of clothing that has so many references and in good movies. and Think of Columbo. Oh, sure.
00:29:07
Speaker
Oh, Columbo. Yes. Yeah.
00:29:10
Speaker
and yeah okay um
00:29:17
Speaker
on yeah i'm just i have to collect my thoughts about columbia i i will say it's been like decades since i've watched it but a a good friend of mine that's like one of his top three TV shows to go back and rewatch all the time. we have written People have written pieces about his style too. Oh yeah, 100%.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. it ah I never read anything about his style. I seem to remember a piece of at least about the trench. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure that Derek I on Put This On or something has written about Kulimba's style at some point.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, that's part of his of the um of of his character that he deceits people. and He deceits them by the way he dresses.
00:30:13
Speaker
So there's several episodes where... people will call him a clochar and they will, they will not take him serious because he's dressed like a homeless person in a dirty trench coat.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, true. And, and that's, and that's how he tricks them. You know, how he, um, Um, he will, he will let them think he is stupid and, uh, just an old, uh, dirty guy in a trench coat. And in the end he will, uh, he will,
00:30:49
Speaker
um
00:30:52
Speaker
he will win the end. Right. That's his man or whatever. Yeah. So I, I have a, I have a photography section on here. um which I think is the, is kind of how we met, right? Like you, uh, you and your coop to Lance blog, ah how long have you been taking photos for?
00:31:16
Speaker
ah probably not much longer than we know each other. Um, so I, so that's even more impressive. Thank you.
00:31:27
Speaker
So I was very much for a long time. I i only had a stupid phone. So I was very, i didn't jump on the smartphone wagon until I believe that until I think two, two and a half years ago, maybe um I had to get it for some stupid reason for a job.
00:31:50
Speaker
you know And then I thought, okay, I would like to, I had already played with the idea of taking photos. So I thought, okay, let's, let's get a phone with a decent camera and then I can play around with that. And, um,
00:32:10
Speaker
then I was in Bologna. So I started taking photos of, um, old man, which was always something that I, that I wanted to document because i I was never sure of that style would disappear completely because most of the guys are old. So you never know how long they are still there.
00:32:33
Speaker
And originally I had the, um, I had the, the idea of making a book, a photographic book about it.
00:32:46
Speaker
But I think there's no way I could talk to these guys and ask for their permission, which is something I wouldn't need if I wanted to publish. Man, we've got to team up then, because I'll ask these motherfuckers. I mean, it's great. I think it's so good. And you call them oldies, which I think is so charming. Yeah.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yeah. I think if you ask them, I mean, you you can try, but I think they they wouldn't even understand what you're talking about. like They wouldn't understand why somebody would want to take photos of them and put them in a book, I guess. well That's the big barrier. One of the big barriers to the to that whole thing is like approaching someone and convincing them that it's worth it, you know, that it like makes any sense at all.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you're good at convincing people, I think I have a I have a job for you. the Well, I guess we'll see. I mean, I would go back to Berlin in a heartbeat. I think that's like one of the best cities that I have ever been to.
00:33:50
Speaker
ah So I think that, yeah, nice. One of the things that, I'm sorry, one of the things that I noticed when I was there was a diversity of style.
Authentic Versus Styled Fashion
00:34:00
Speaker
Like there really were like, I don't know, people people doing all kinds of stuff with clothing. And I thought that was amazing.
00:34:11
Speaker
When were you in Berlin the linda last time? I guess in 2011. 2011. Mm-hmm. two thousand eleven two thousand and So a while ago, like,
00:34:24
Speaker
yeah it was like there, someone was hosting a YouTube viral video film festival. And I feel like that's like, that's like totally kind of the sign of the times, but that was ah Berlin experience. Definitely.
00:34:43
Speaker
and what do you remember about the, the style building? What stroke you? Well, just thought, and i thought this in Rome too, like these people have places to go, you know? And maybe that's the great myth is that all of these guys in Rome ah eating gelato at, you know, one o'clock are not really, they're not returning to the office.
00:35:10
Speaker
oh They're just out kind of ah dressed.
00:35:16
Speaker
And I thought that, I don't know. I thought that about Berlin too. It was like people were like the Sanders book from earlier. Like people were in there.
00:35:27
Speaker
People were really wearing their clothing. ah
00:35:34
Speaker
I did not think Munich was the same at all. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
Cause I mean, I was at least made to understand that there is like sort of a forced, uh, there's a forced comparison between the two cities of Berlin and Munich because they are like the, the dual capitals of Germany, even though not really.
00:35:59
Speaker
Yeah. I don't, I mean, I don't, personally remember this style and Berlin to be very interesting. Um, not 10 years ago and not now.
00:36:13
Speaker
Um, so it's interesting to hear that observation from someone from the outside. Um, well, if you see it all the time, then it's like, you, you don't see it, I guess.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's, um, probably going to a different country and oh looking at it from the outside. some That makes a difference.
00:36:41
Speaker
That was probably my my experience in Italy when I went there for the first time and I discovered all these different typologies of oldies. right right see that's the book psychologies of oldies yeah i mean there's really this this um one could probably classify them there's some people who dress very um like fishermen sort of they have this um they have this kind of bucket hat on top of the head
00:37:17
Speaker
yeah They wear huge wax jackets. um ah yeah they they They're the kind of the fisherman type.
00:37:30
Speaker
you got Do you have you have pictures of these? Yeah, I'm sure there's a couple of pictures in my Insta. We'll have to collect some of those for promotional purposes. Yeah.
00:37:48
Speaker
And then there's the testim more posh cost dressing Italian oldie who goes for a cafe at Cafe Zanarini to show off his best clothes.
00:38:05
Speaker
um
00:38:08
Speaker
There's... Let me think, what else do we have? I should probably... I don't have my and photos in front of me, so...
00:38:19
Speaker
Take a look at them. That makes it easier too. I've only been to Italy once. I went to Petit in summer of 2013, which if you're thinking about going to Petit, the summer one is not that fun.
00:38:32
Speaker
know it's It's hot as a motherfucker. but like I was definitely struck with you know, going out at night and like seeing, seeing just the general population and a lot of like, you know, just cool fucking unassuming looking old dudes, just like, you know, wearing in a jacket they've had for 40 years.
00:38:54
Speaker
ah No big deal. You know, eating at a cafe or or whatever and like drinking some wine and just like, Totally nonchalant. You know, the stuff that, like, i don't I feel like menswear nerds salivate over and it's just, like, some random dude on the street.
00:39:11
Speaker
So you also thought that the random guys on the street were more interesting than the peacocks? Oh, 100%. Not even a question. i mean, you know, it's cool seeing, like,
00:39:26
Speaker
seeing the dudes that have been going to Petit since they were, you know, 15 or 16 or whatever. Like, yeah, there's definitely some like old, old cool looking dudes, but you know, like, uh, just seeing a random guy on the street that looked as cool as Luciano by Piero, who I think is maybe the epitome of Italian style for me. Like it was just, I don't know. was a super interesting experience.
00:39:50
Speaker
And yeah, You know, like you see that kind of shit in, in certain places in the States, I guess, like New York, you know, Boston occasionally, like you'll see it. And a person of a certain age that just is, is themselves and they're wearing just something that's super cool without any like, you know, pretension whatsoever. But I don't know. i feel like, uh, Europe and and certain places get that way more. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a very, very good observation. you know, it's the difference between um guys who dress ah in a way that they have seen on social media or um and guys who who live in their clothes, you know, and and their clothes, the way they are, um the way the clothes fit, the way they pick their clothes, it has different criteria. It has to be functional.
00:40:55
Speaker
it has to last long um you know when they go to ham the pants they shouldn't be too short because in winter the pants must be warm and there should not come the cold wind from underneath them so they have to have a proper length um No high walkers. When they buy a coat, there needs to be a room for extra layers under it. So coat's going to be big.
00:41:26
Speaker
um Same with the shoes. They are going to be big because maybe you want to wear some extra socks in them. Right. You need many pockets for your nose rack.
00:41:38
Speaker
Many, many pockets. It's very important for your nose rack, your tobacco, your pipe, your keys, your telephone.
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's exactly exactly right. And um yeah, so so this is a mindset that is completely different from the you know from the guy who spends half of his lifetime on social media. Right, right. I also like going back to um to the photographer, like in certain ways, like I love workwear and I think like, you know,
00:42:20
Speaker
just work where Taylor clothing, any clothing really should be worn. And like, uh, it should, it should suit your life. Like we're talking about, but like, you know, it it, this kind of thing, like is not that dissimilar from seeing some dude in the middle of fucking Kentucky wearing a pair of overalls, a chore jacket and boots.
00:42:43
Speaker
Cause you know, he was working in that shit today. Like it's kind of like it's all utilitarian depending on how you, you know, how you live your life or how you need to live your life. And like, yeah, the the social media type of dressing is not always that.
00:43:03
Speaker
And I think that's like that for me is has always been one of the parts that's missing.
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah. And that's the nicest way to say that, too. Yeah, I mean, and I try not to be an asshole. but Yeah. you know You know, but like, yeah, like I live in my clothes.
00:43:20
Speaker
Like everything, almost everything I have has a hole or two in it and like, you know, some stains because I, fuck if I know. But like I destroy clothing and clothing has to be able to like hold up.
00:43:37
Speaker
for me. And that that's across the board, whether it's a pair of like jeans or canvas pants or like, you know, hopsack suit.
00:43:48
Speaker
You're here. um So you're going to hate this question, I'm sure. But what is the connection between, dare I say, fine art and the street style that you do?
Photography Process and Artistic Instinct
00:44:03
Speaker
You mean in In terms of photography style or? Yeah. I mean, your work, like the, the, your body of work, is there a connection between that and fine art?
00:44:16
Speaker
I, I haven't, thought about it i haven't theorized it um i just follow my instincts and i just like to take photos of stuff did i finance interesting that i that think uh i feel something in my in my soul you know that touches me um and i think that I like the hunt. i like the the the mode of perception that you get into when you do street photography in a wider sense, when you um ah roam the streets and you just look for something interesting that you can that you can take a photo of. and um
00:45:01
Speaker
So I really don't don't think about any art criteria or any art theoretical context. um this is not This is not something that's important for me.
00:45:18
Speaker
I mean, that's ah in my opinion, that's a pretty punk rock way to view it.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah, i thought I mean, I wasn't, I was sort of driving at something annoying. Like,
00:45:33
Speaker
I think that it's, yeah, I mean, it is art. It's like that, those little
00:45:44
Speaker
vignettes, snapshots, whatever, they're,
00:45:49
Speaker
they're, they're, they're saying more than they say, just with the photo, like people are extracting a lot of meaning from them. ah hu Yeah. Um, did you have, uh, something like you have a specific photo in mind? it's it's So it's stupid. Like you have your three pin images, right? And there's this one on the right, which is a great picture of this, uh, holiday resort.
00:46:18
Speaker
ariaic c See, that's not even a person. But then there's this guy ah with the gray, i guess, anorak on the really old guy with the wild hair and the traffic light with all the stickers on it.
00:46:34
Speaker
It's just no it's a different it's a view into your life, which is amazing. You know, i think that that's like, okay.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. let Let me just open my Insta. Then have it in front of me. And it's not just pictures of old men either. Like it's pictures of young men and women and all kinds of people.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I, I know what, what you mean, I guess. Yeah. I mean, there was a Clearly, there's an interest that I have in particular types and particular motives.
00:47:15
Speaker
And with some of these motives, I think you can also bring notions and ideas into play. um Although i very often, I think that my experience with photography is in the in the moment when you shoot, you are not completely conscious about what you're shooting.
00:47:38
Speaker
um I've heard this also ah from other street photographers that they say um the perception that they have in the moment of taking the photo is completely different from when you when you look at the photos afterwards, you know, it's it's only afterwards that you realize that your subconsciousness has has played a big role in making the decisions of taking the photo and um understanding the situation very quickly and taking a photo.
00:48:18
Speaker
And so this is something, yeah, I've i've i've often... experience that afterwards when i when I look at the photos, I kind of realize that they they have an analogy with something else I've seen with paintings or with other photos, with ideas and concepts.
00:48:45
Speaker
um but But it's really in the moment of taking the photo, you're not thinking about it, And this is one of the things I enjoy very much about photography, that you are free from conscious thoughts and from, yeah, from rational thinking.
00:49:10
Speaker
um But Then afterwards you, you are surprised about the results. It's a very,
00:49:21
Speaker
very amazing, surprising thing when that happens. So it's so funny, like I'm looking through, I'm looking through the page right now, right?
00:49:32
Speaker
And I found one March 26, 2023, which I said, this is amazing because it is really amazing. It's just this picture of this great green jacket. The guy's wearing a yellow scarf, like a pattern Paisley scarf.
00:49:49
Speaker
It looks like there's some kind of knit under the jacket. there's like this orange box of some kind in the pocket. Like the guy's using the pockets. He's using all the pockets and that's just tight. You know, you just, you just find this stuff and it is a, I don't know. It is an unrecognized
00:50:13
Speaker
thing, I guess by most. I think what, what you were just describing, like kind of, you know, kind of like, uh, really underlines the artistic nature of, of photography in general, but also like how do you see things.
00:50:33
Speaker
Um, you know, you're not trying to like, you're not trying to, to have your photo consciously, have, have something else about it other than the photo itself.
00:50:47
Speaker
But in looking back, you're like, Oh shit, I created this. And it makes you think of like three or four other things or whatever. Like, yeah, it's just, that was a beautiful way to describe kind of what the, the what your process is like.
00:51:03
Speaker
Yeah. It's also, I mean, if you have a, um, and a visual, um, memory i mean everybody has but if you like other visual media you like to watch movies for example um you have recollections from your childhood and it's and it's interesting how that influences your, the the process of making decisions in a totally very subconscious way.
00:51:35
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. I don't think that anything we experience, you know, that, that really adds to who we are as people ever goes away.
00:51:47
Speaker
It's always buried. There's always like some subconscious, area that like a certain thing might evoke where that that memory or that influence comes back to the surface and yeah it's I feel like that's that's one of the coolest parts about being human is like if you're of a certain ilk you know, you might remember this like random weird thing that was like really impactful at a certain time. And then something triggers that later on that like makes you re-remember that. And you're like, Oh fuck.
00:52:24
Speaker
That's, that's part of why I am who I am. Well, not to get too deep. Well said, but yeah, man, this has been a hell of fun.
00:52:36
Speaker
Um, chatting and just kind of hearing about hearing about your experience.
Photography Journey and Future Plans
00:52:41
Speaker
And if you had said that you were taking photographs since you were like a kid, I totally but would have believed you. But it's yeah, it's fucking rad that you're that you're doing it. And it just kind of, you know, has become a passion.
00:52:57
Speaker
And I hope you start posting more. Yeah, get back to it. Yeah, I will. I run social media accounts for my band, my own personal shit, Apocalypse Duds, Halfway, and then you know some a couple of other things. like and It's soul-sucking. It can be soul-sucking.
00:53:18
Speaker
It totally is. yeah it's a cho It can become a chore. it's ah But it's also, you know i get it. like You connect with people that you might not connect with otherwise. I think, all in all, it's a It's a winner, but yeah, it just, it gets to be a drag sometimes, but I hope you get back to to posting some your gnarly ass photos.
00:53:39
Speaker
Oh yeah, I will. um I will be back in Italy in winter, I think. And then I'm going hunting again. Hell yeah. Lucky duck. Yeah. if we If we can all make it to winter, i will be very happy.
00:53:52
Speaker
ah um But yeah, we um always like to give our guests a chance to shout out their accounts and whatever else i would like to. So go for it. um Yeah.
00:54:06
Speaker
I mean, you could write my account in india and the credits, I guess. Yeah, we will. Easier than spelling it out. um anyway Can you say it? I feel like it will sound better if you say it than if either of us says it.
00:54:22
Speaker
Well, I don't know why I picked a French account name. I guess I just didn't. Because it's hardcore. it It's so cool. What's the translation of this?
Conclusion and Social Media Sharing
00:54:33
Speaker
um So in French, it's coup de lance.
00:54:36
Speaker
And it means, well, it's actually a thing from, from iconography. It's the, when when Christ gets, uh, pierced with the lens.
00:54:48
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Okay. Right. Wild. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Yeah. Yes. and Everyone should follow. Yeah.
00:55:01
Speaker
Piercing the piercing style of oldies. And some youngies. yeah Yes, yes. Well, everyone, thank you for listening. um We are at ApocalypseDuds on Instagram.
00:55:15
Speaker
ApocalypseDuds at gmail.com if you want to send us a fucking email. ah We have one that came in like a month and a half ago that I just haven't been responding to. I'm sorry. Love you. Thank you for the email.
00:55:27
Speaker
um I am Matt Smith at RebelsRogues. And I'm Connor Flower at Connor Flower. And we will see you next week.
00:55:41
Speaker
Thank you so much, guys. Bye-bye. Thank you, Sven.