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Episode 24 - Increasing PRICE POINT & the Ethics of doing so (w/ Jack Thomas)
1.2k Plays21 days ago
Do you want to earn more money for your work? Do you struggle to set prices and get nervous thinking about asking for more money? When you do charge more, do you feel ok about it? Today we discuss the many ways one can RAISE PRICE POINT as an artist and then have a short but spirirted session of WIB's DEBATE CLUB where Erik and I debate the ethical and moral implications of doing so. Joining us for this episode is the amazing fine artist, educator, and documentarian JACK THOMAS! She'S smart, witty, experienced, and hilarious and adds a wonderful piece to this conversation.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Icebreaker
00:00:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Welcome to the first time Mary has ever danced during the intro music ever. If you have the video feed, you need to see this.
00:00:23
E dolla dolla
We got her.
Meet Paul Jasper: Scientist and Woodworker
00:00:26
E dolla dolla
That's the most I've ever seen Mary dance ever.
00:00:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast, all about creativity, art, and the philosophy behind design. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined with Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator, and Mary Tisai, contemporary furniture maker by night, and UX designer
Special Guest: Jack Thomas
00:00:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
by day. Today, we have a very special guest,
00:00:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Joining us on today's episode, her name's Jack Thomas. Jack is an artist, a fellow artist, also very clearly an educator, a multimedia documentarian, and a creativity coach. And underlying you know everything she's done in her career and everything I can tell about Jack, and she's got a bachelor's and a master's of fine art, and she's in this uncomfortable position of listening to me brag about her while while we stare at each other through the video.
00:01:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um ah underlying all of her, I think, efforts, and if I could be so bold is to give my opinion, is number one, a deep, deep love of art. That goes without saying, you know, that goes without question. And number two, I've noticed a huge curiosity.
00:01:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a curiosity to understand art, to understand what art is capable of, to understand what governs our perceptions of art and how art intersects with society in the most unpredictable and brilliant
Art vs Craft: Jack's Reaction Videos
00:02:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ways. And Jack, I think, you know, everything I've heard from you, you know, tells the story better than I can talk about it. So let me tell you how we met Jack. Okay. So, uh,
00:02:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In our third episode, I think it was, art versus craft, or it was early on, early, early on, we did an episode of art versus craft.
00:02:18
E dolla dolla
Yeah, I think so.
00:02:19
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:02:20
E dolla dolla
Might've been second.
00:02:21
Jack Thomas
Second maybe?
00:02:22
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:02:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:02:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you know the three of us, you know we do the best we can, like we just bring it you know every week. and you know you know none None of us are educators in like you know the art ah field, and and we just you know bring these topics up and and speak to them as best we can.
00:02:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Jack was sufficiently moved about this topic that she's like, I love this. And she did a series of reaction videos to our episode and she published them on Instagram.
00:02:51
E dolla dolla
and put us to shame.
00:02:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
she yeah that with They were amazing. She published them on Instagram. There are six of them. And I've sent them to many, many people. Her reaction videos were better than the episode. Okay.
00:03:02
E dolla dolla
Oh yeah, i've sent I've sent those videos to people and be like, don't even listen to our episode.
00:03:02
Jack Thomas
No!
00:03:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:03:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, basically.
00:03:07
Jack Thomas
Oh my gosh, you guys, no way.
00:03:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Jack, you know we were so blown away at your your deep thinking and you're you're the breadth which you thought about these topics and the the the history that you brought to them to speak.
00:03:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like We were so blown away that we were like from that day, ah we're you know we're like, we have to have her on an episode. And that was it. So by the way, for any listeners out there who want to make reaction dates to our episodes, that's all it takes to get on it.
00:03:34
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:03:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have to be brilliant.
00:03:36
E dolla dolla
Don't encourage that, Paul. Don't encourage that.
00:03:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have to be brilliant and give a series of amazing reaction videos better than the episode itself. No no small task. So Jack, thank you for being on tonight's episode. We really appreciate having you.
00:03:49
Jack Thomas
Oh, thanks so much for having me and thank you in advance for ah writing the ah the book jacket description for my memoir. I really appreciate that.
00:03:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah your
00:04:00
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:04:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you're welcome. I only charge a little bit, but I'm hoping to increase the price point, which brings up
Main Topic: Increasing Price Points
00:04:07
Jack Thomas
You better.
00:04:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
today's topic.
00:04:07
E dolla dolla
Oh, what a transition. Oh my God.
00:04:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Was that smooth?
00:04:11
E dolla dolla
You know what makes the transition smooth is when you acknowledge how smooth the transition was.
00:04:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Pew pew. Pew pew.
00:04:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the little pistoles after, yeah.
00:04:19
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:04:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so as everyone knows, we always lead with a question. And we thought Jack could speak to this topic wonderfully. So, you know, think of Jack today as a fourth host who's going to like push and prod and tear the fabric of everything we discussed.
00:04:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Today, I think applies to pretty much everyone who sells anything.
00:04:38
Jack Thomas
Pew pew.
00:04:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that is how do you increase your price point? And what are the moral and ethical implications of doing so? So we're going to take this in two pieces.
00:04:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're going to say, well, first, how do you establish price point? How do you increase price point? What are some ways you've used to increase your price point and have they worked?
Career Journey: Jack's Path to Art
00:05:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then that's going to be the body of, I think what we discussed.
00:05:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then towards the end, Eric and I are going to have a little wibs debate club about whether it's ethical to do so.
00:05:08
E dolla dolla
We bringing it back, baby.
00:05:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but Let's hope there's no long standing grudges.
00:05:11
E dolla dolla
So can, uh, Can I ask right off the jump, Jack, when you went to art school, art education school, like art school, so so was your intention from the beginning to be a full-time artist?
00:05:22
Jack Thomas
Art school. Yeah.
00:05:29
Jack Thomas
No.
00:05:30
E dolla dolla
Or like 20-year-old Jack, like what was the dream?
00:05:34
Jack Thomas
ah Do any 20 year olds have dreams that really follow through? I guess kids do these days. I don't know.
00:05:37
E dolla dolla
i Thought you were gonna say to any 20 year olds have dreams, and I was a little sad for you ah Yeah
00:05:42
Jack Thomas
oh
00:05:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:05:44
Jack Thomas
Let us not tease our young friends so hard.
00:05:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're dreaming. They're dreaming, but it's not about art, Eric.
00:05:48
Jack Thomas
Yes, no, no, no. No, I i went to um i went to ah a liberal art school for undergrad, not a fine art school, and I had no clue what I was going to do.
00:05:58
Jack Thomas
um I ended up in a first year program with this really famous photographer named Pradeep Malday, and it just made such an impression on me that I declared a major for art and and went in that direction it was not really the intention to begin with i was actually going to go to military school yeah yeah yeah
00:06:13
E dolla dolla
Oh, wow. Interesting. We have to dive into that at some point.
00:06:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:06:17
E dolla dolla
Uh, but, but yeah, Ooh, that is an after
00:06:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
After show, okay.
Pricing Challenges in Woodworking and Printmaking
00:06:20
E dolla dolla
show seg.
00:06:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh-huh, got it.
00:06:21
E dolla dolla
But so I guess I'm curious if we're talking about pricing, like I know all three of us have struggled with pricing, um, many a times. This is a conversation we still regularly have.
00:06:32
E dolla dolla
We'll still like Paul and I will still be like, how much do I fucking charge for this box?
00:06:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep, just two weeks ago.
00:06:36
E dolla dolla
Like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
00:06:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:06:39
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:06:39
E dolla dolla
So I guess um to my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, you're not making and selling a lot of work at this point in your career.
00:06:47
Jack Thomas
that is correct my day job uh has taken over because i launched a business this year as an instructional designer designing online courses for fancy influencers like you guys and health care people and things like that so not a lot of art right now my printing press is laying pretty fallow um but when i was regularly making work i was really really privileged because printmakers kind of have a pricing formula and you guys don't have that i think oh yeah oh man wow i mean it
00:06:57
E dolla dolla
Amazing.
00:07:10
E dolla dolla
Oh, really?
00:07:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's what's that?
00:07:12
E dolla dolla
No, it's the Wild West out here.
00:07:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:07:13
E dolla dolla
Yeah. How do you figure that out? Square inch?
00:07:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell us the formula.
00:07:16
Jack Thomas
No, no, no. So here's the here's the formula for printmakers. And I told all my students this, it and it it works out until you get famous enough to to break the mold. So you take your the cost of your materials. You multiply it by 2.
00:07:30
Jack Thomas
Then you decide what your hourly rate is, how much you want to get paid per hour. You pay yourself that much per hour for however many hours it takes you to make this print, whether you're carving a wood block and then printing on the paper and drying the edition and signing things, whatever. And then you add those numbers together. So you have materials times two plus your hourly rate times the number of hours that you worked. Then you take that number and divide it by the number of prints that you have in an edition. And that's the price per print. But that only works with addition to work.
00:08:01
E dolla dolla
So let me get this straight.
00:08:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um,
00:08:03
E dolla dolla
So if Jack leaves the train station headed East at eight miles an hour, i i so wasn't that was, was, that was, yeah, no, that was very much.
00:08:05
Jack Thomas
Exactly, exactly. 17 apples, 17 apples.
00:08:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, Eric, Eric, that's, that's a calculus problem you were just giving.
00:08:11
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:08:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's like a derivative. It is. I'm not even joking. Uh,
00:08:18
E dolla dolla
So the, the way I learned, so but is that the the formula you followed when you started making things and you were like, this is coming to figure out what my price point is.
00:08:27
Jack Thomas
Yeah, because that's what my professors told me and
Evolution of Pricing with Audience Growth
00:08:29
Jack Thomas
so I followed it. But then once you once you kind of grow up and you get famous a little bit even, you can charge more than that.
00:08:30
E dolla dolla
Hmm.
00:08:35
Jack Thomas
and It also depends on where you're selling.
00:08:35
E dolla dolla
is that a Is that a formula only because you're creating a lot of one thing?
00:08:41
Jack Thomas
Yeah, exactly exactly.
00:08:42
E dolla dolla
that's Okay, gotcha.
00:08:43
Jack Thomas
That's why I don't envy you guys.
00:08:43
E dolla dolla
so
00:08:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i've I've heard similar formulas for woodworking is like you know materials times your hourly rate times some profit margin, you know something like some formula like that, but not divided by the number of prints, obviously.
00:08:48
Jack Thomas
so
00:08:54
E dolla dolla
there There are formulas. Yeah, there are forms like in cabinetry, there is a formula per linear foot and everybody has a different number, but like, you know, whatever, say a person is charging $1,500 a linear foot and you're like, okay, like how long is the cabinet?
00:09:08
E dolla dolla
How many, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Done. Um, in the furniture world, what I was taught for individual objects is if you, if the price of materials is more than 25% of the final cost of the object, you're losing money.
00:09:21
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:09:23
E dolla dolla
If it's around 10%, that's ideal.
00:09:26
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:09:26
E dolla dolla
And usually it ends up being somewhere around 15 to 20%.
00:09:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's interesting, Eric.
00:09:31
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:09:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've never thought of it that way.
00:09:31
E dolla dolla
Yeah, no, it's a terrible way to price things out because like you could make a thing. so I know we're going to get into this later, but like the scale of objects matters in that case.
00:09:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
00:09:41
E dolla dolla
All right, all right, all right.
00:09:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, all right, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:09:42
E dolla dolla
Shut up, Eric.
00:09:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Come on now, come on, come on.
00:09:44
E dolla dolla
You said shut up.
00:09:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so, so, question. So Jack, you had a formula for pricing. Like, Mary, when you first sold your first thing, how did you price it?
00:09:54
E dolla dolla
Hmm, really poorly. I think i honestly, I think I went on like Etsy and saw around average what was there.
00:10:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:10:01
E dolla dolla
And then because I lived in the Bay Area, I was like, I'm gonna jack that up a little bit. I could have jacked it up like four times and it would have been fine.
00:10:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:10:08
E dolla dolla
But I jacked it up a little bit because it's well to do people. But it was like, you know, seeing online comparing what's what year was that?
00:10:15
Jack Thomas
Well, hey, hold on now, what was that?
00:10:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That that's ah interesting.
00:10:18
E dolla dolla
What?
00:10:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary say that again, because it was well to do people, which brings up the ethics and moral considerations of how we price.
00:10:20
E dolla dolla
Yes.
00:10:23
E dolla dolla
yes
00:10:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like if you know who your audience is, like, all right, we're we'll get to that.
00:10:27
E dolla dolla
Yeah. Oh.
00:10:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary Mary's already it' skating on.
00:10:33
E dolla dolla
yeah Yeah, she's chopping it a bit.
00:10:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Okay. So ah for me, it's okay.
00:10:36
E dolla dolla
Wait, what was your question? Well, I was wondering, sorry, Paul, hold on. I was wondering what year that was because like, the first object that I made that I charged somebody for, I'm pretty sure Etsy didn't exist yet. So and I, I'm sure there were ways to figure out what the market was, but I didn't have those um resources that I would look at first nowadays. The first time I ever had like a formal commission and not just for a friend or family was 2017. Okay.
00:11:06
E dolla dolla
Okay. Sorry, Paul, go on.
00:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, for me. So I didn't know how to price things originally and I made a series of six tea boxes. I'll never forget this. And they were highly, they were, they were, you know, highly decorative on the inside.
00:11:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They had like, you know, checkerboard dividers and all this stuff. And I put the first one for sale.
00:11:26
E dolla dolla
Oh, I remember those.
00:11:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you remember?
00:11:29
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:11:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I put the first one for sale on Instagram.
00:11:29
E dolla dolla
Those were the first ones you ever put up.
00:11:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I put the first one for sale on Instagram at $400.
00:11:33
E dolla dolla
Man.
00:11:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's sold instantly in like two, two minutes. There was ah someone who's like, I'll take it. And I was like, Ooh, maybe I underpriced that. I don't know. Okay.
00:11:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the second one I put for 450. also sold in under five minutes. And I'm like, oh, geez, you know, economic principles would tell you that they should not sell instantly.
00:11:51
E dolla dolla
Mmm.
00:11:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Then I put the third one at 550. So it's 400, 450. I put it up to 550. It took about a week. And I was like, OK, I think we're reaching kind of the tipping point of of my particular audience, what they'll accept.
00:12:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then I put the next one for 650. And it's set for a month or more. And I eventually sold it to a previous customer for 450 after a month or two. And that was my first, you know, it sort of dipping the toe into this idea of making multiples of something and just kind of experimenting with price point to see what the market will bear.
00:12:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's how I, you know, and and for me, it's always been an evolution. I start, I start with a particular price point based on my other objects now. but If you don't have other objects, where do you start?
00:12:40
E dolla dolla
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know That's sort of what we're talking about.
00:12:42
E dolla dolla
That's the tricky part.
00:12:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like now now I have a ah body of work that I i know like I could start here, and I see how well it does. And if it if it doesn't sell for two years, I might drop the price.
00:12:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or if it Or I might just let it sit.
00:12:53
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:12:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or if it sells immediately, I might think, oh, that's interesting. Anyway, that that that was my approach. so Now, Jack, when we were circulating notes about today's show, you wrote something very specific.
00:13:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I want to address this.
00:13:09
Jack Thomas
ah
00:13:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so And I'm going to let you speak to it now. I'm going to read it first, and I'm going to let you speak to it. A warning or a plea to hobbyists and to folks who are just starting to be you know being skilled enough to sell their work, do not sell your work at cut-throat-low prices.
00:13:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We know it feels good. and to get those sales and to fill that validation.
00:13:30
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:13:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But when you do that, you devalue the whole market.
00:13:34
Jack Thomas
Oh.
00:13:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Jack, why don't you tell us, you know, what that is about.
00:13:39
Jack Thomas
Yeah, for sure. Because you know up until this point, I feel like we've been having you know sort of like academic math speak about things. But really, ah the way that I feel about this is just 100% fucking attitude. um like it is It is a matter of of how good you are and where you're going to sell, what the venue is that you're selling in, what the prices are like in that venue. like you know to To your point, Mary, like you go on Etsy, you look and you see what the what the sort of median for something is and how much you think you can get for it.
00:14:06
Jack Thomas
But if you're one of those folks that's just starting out and you're a hobbyist, um you know it it is very it's important for you to get validation. You need that to go on, right? We all we all need that to keep going, you know even at ah past the beginner points of our careers.
00:14:16
E dolla dolla
Mmhmm.
00:14:20
Jack Thomas
But let's say that you are um you're a new woodworker, you're a hobbyist. and you join like one of these sort of member craft galleries. so Maybe the average price for, let's say, a tee box in there is $450. If you're like, oh, you know, I'm just a hobbyist and my work's not quite as good, I'm going to price this for $200. Screw you. You have just brought down the entire value, the whole vibe of the work that's in that gallery because
The Art Community and Pricing Ethics
00:14:49
Jack Thomas
now people are looking at your work going, oh, well, this is $200. This jerk over here prices for $450.
00:14:54
Jack Thomas
Right? And the quality will speak for itself sometimes, but you you don't want to do that. it's It's also devaluing yourself, frankly. If you're not ready to charge big boy prices, then do not go to big boy venues to sell.
00:15:05
E dolla dolla
Well, that, that I think is the key point, right? Because early on, like, I'll tell you, the first piece I ever got commissioned to do was a bookshelf. It was my senior year of college, it was 2008, and I charged him $200 for like a sizable bookshelf.
00:15:23
E dolla dolla
And I ended up spending about $250 on wood, and then had to buy the router in the tools and everything else to do the thing and the finish.
00:15:33
Jack Thomas
I wish people could hear my face right now.
00:15:34
E dolla dolla
And ah we heard the exhale. um But but like that, I had no idea I didn't know what it would cost. So I just like threw out a number. And there's also the emotional aspect of I'm terrified to ask you for more money, because Money is expensive. ah you know like There's a t-shirt in there. But like there's there is the thing of like I couldn't comprehend spending $200 on a bookshelf. like I was just getting free shit off of like Facebook Marketplace, even though it didn't exist yet. you know Craigslist at the time. um So to ask for that amount of money for a thing was um not even like anxiety is not the right word. like I felt guilty about it.
00:16:17
E dolla dolla
And consequently, like to your point, there was no chance in hell I was gonna submit my work to a gallery to to get laughed out of that fucking room.
00:16:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:16:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:16:27
E dolla dolla
No way that was gonna happen. So I understand what you're saying that like, if you're gonna if you're gonna try to get into the room with the big boys, the big girls, then you need to be you need to have an understanding of how or at least a baseline understanding of how that economy works so that you're not devaluing other people's work because it is a communal effort, but there's no way to know that without fucking it up first.
00:16:53
Jack Thomas
Oh, you will. Everybody does, for sure.
00:16:55
E dolla dolla
Right.
00:16:56
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:16:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Yeah, Eric, I was following where you were. It's like when you first start out, you don't know that you just want to sell a thing and you don't care about the community and devaluing because you're not part of it.
00:17:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're just some schmo like making shit for the first time thinking, would someone pay for this?
00:17:09
E dolla dolla
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:17:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you're just happy that it's sold.
00:17:15
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:17:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You didn't even care about the money sometimes.
00:17:20
E dolla dolla
A lot of the time.
00:17:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:17:20
E dolla dolla
Yeah. It's just, oh, somebody covered the materials for this piece and I got to learn a thing.
00:17:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Jack, i do now that I'm in the field, I do know what you're talking about. And I think it's that vantage point takes years to to feel, to be in the community and see, oh, I see what you're talking about now. But when you're first starting out, I didn't see it. So it's it's sort of a developmental cycle.
00:17:46
Jack Thomas
Yeah, and sometimes hopefully, you know, you have people who are ah kind enough to like nudge you in the right direction without, you know, really calling you out too hard.
00:17:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:17:51
E dolla dolla
Mm.
00:17:54
Jack Thomas
um So yeah, I wish that for everybody.
00:17:55
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:17:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the funny you say about people you know in the community who help you. So we're now gonna switch gears to how do we increase, we talked already about how you set the initial price point and there's a variety of methods like whether it's eBay or comparison or you ask people or you guess or you fuck it up like Eric did. and ah or Or you have a formula, um there's plenty of ways, but how do we increase, this is the crux of today's episode, how do we increase the price point of what we sell?
00:18:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm going to start by saying the first thing that came to my mind was better marketing. The size of the audience, the bigger your audience, the more people who want to buy your shit, the more you can ask for it. Because as you ask more and more money, you whittle down the buying market smaller and smaller.
00:18:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So obviously it's a numbers game. If you start at a hundred people and you whittle it down versus if you start at a million people and you whittle it down. So I'm going to start by saying better marketing, sales, marketing, reputation, prestige, higher visibility, better photography and videos, like everything, social media, you know, that that's, that was my first. That was the first thing that occurred to me.
00:19:18
E dolla dolla
I agree with everything you just said with the caveat that everything that you just said takes time to develop those skills or gather the resources to pay people who have those skills.
00:19:32
E dolla dolla
And I think this is, this is a dangerous thing, right?
00:19:32
Jack Thomas
Bingo.
00:19:35
E dolla dolla
Because we can come on here and we go, just make better shit. And then like, how by how, you know, or like, just, just pay somebody to photograph your work better, or just pay $10,000 to get into, you know, New York home builder show, and then you'll have people.
00:19:50
E dolla dolla
Yeah, of course you will. but if you if you don't have that capital to expand to grow like it's an incremental process. You know i think that's an important thing to know.
00:19:59
Jack Thomas
Eric, um um right now, i'm I'm picturing you wearing that t-shirt that Paris Hilton wore that said, stop being poor. And also, it's like way too small for you.
00:20:09
E dolla dolla
i I did not know where you were going with that, but I appreciate how you closed it out.
00:20:10
Jack Thomas
Because that's what this sounds like, right? No. Yes, just Eric.
00:20:15
E dolla dolla
You do you do have a close resemblance to Paris Lord.
00:20:18
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:18
E dolla dolla
You do say that's hot all the time.
00:20:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You do, actually. yeah
00:20:24
Jack Thomas
But yeah, i mean it's it's that's what it that's what it can feel like. you know And i even from my perspective, I'm looking at you guys you know going, your audiences are huge. The amount of money that you can spend to have have teams to work on these things, this is massive. How does somebody who is beyond the hobbyist level, but not quite there yet, help raise their own prices when they don't have access to these like you know teams of influence or quality of videographers and things like that?
00:20:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Eric, how do you afford your your videographer?
00:20:55
E dolla dolla
Well, so I guess this, this was my point. So I was coming from the perspective of, uh, I, I can't, so I have to have, I've developed those skills over the years. Like it's, it's been, I went, I made the decision to be a professional woodworker in 2008, maybe 2007. And I, I think some folks would consider me successful within the last couple of years.
00:21:24
E dolla dolla
So it's 15, 18 years of learning how to make things, learning how to design things. Then I had to learn how to photograph those things. Then I had to learn how social media works. Then I had to learn how to make videos so that more people would engage with my videos on social media so that more people would see my work. And at the same time, I'm expending capital out of my own pockets, slowly growing a business over years, going to trade shows, ah going to art shows.
00:21:53
E dolla dolla
going to do residencies so that I can meet other very successful artists who can teach me how to be better at the thing that I need to know. um So it it it takes a long time to develop those skills.
00:22:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:22:06
E dolla dolla
Some people are lucky enough to have the resources to invest in their business up front. I think the majority of us have um not zero resources, but limited resources realistically.
00:22:19
E dolla dolla
And like the economy, like shit is expensive now.
00:22:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I.
00:22:22
E dolla dolla
Like you're not spending all of your spare money on your woodworking habit because like groceries cost twice as much as they did four
00:22:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
Costs and Social Media Marketing
00:22:29
E dolla dolla
years ago.
00:22:29
E dolla dolla
That's the reality of it.
00:22:30
Jack Thomas
But the eggs!
00:22:31
E dolla dolla
The fucking eggs.
00:22:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The a it's the eggs. My eggs are free, except for the food. I have to provide the chickens fair enough. It's like $60 an egg. Uh, but besides that, uh, Eric, Eric, Mary and I, I Jack, I think are all like, we had to figure it out ourselves.
00:22:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Cause obviously we don't have that.
00:22:49
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:22:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We don't have that kind of infrastructure.
00:22:52
Jack Thomas
Well, that's amazing. You guys, you make it look like you, you make it look like you have an entire team.
00:22:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All of us.
00:22:57
Jack Thomas
You know, I think that that's the perception that maybe some folks have.
00:22:58
E dolla dolla
That's the social media.
00:22:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you're You're meeting three entire teams right now.
00:23:00
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:23:00
E dolla dolla
What? What? What I wouldn't give to have a team.
00:23:03
Jack Thomas
i I love to see behind the veil. I mean, this is great. I think that it probably is going to make everybody listening feel better too, because you guys do look like you like you have it so polished and so figured out.
00:23:13
Jack Thomas
And so the the question of like how to raise your prices and how to charge more, you know, some people before this moment in the show might've been scoffing and going, well, you just have a teen. like Eric has.
00:23:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:23:23
E dolla dolla
That dick has a whole Netflix show team. Yeah, I got a whole team on Netflix.
00:23:26
Jack Thomas
That guy. Yeah, exactly.
00:23:28
E dolla dolla
That that team that team spent 14 hours ah on Friday with me editing next week's YouTube video. So you know like that's just how it goes.
00:23:39
E dolla dolla
you know yeah like You're running a small business.
00:23:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:23:41
E dolla dolla
You have to do the thing. This is why, ah i mean coming back to price point and selling things, like i My clients sometimes get, I don't want to say frustrated. They are incredibly patient with me, but they, they, I think they're understanding dwindles from time to time. Um, because like the client I'm currently working with, this piece is very nearly finished. I'm hoping to deliver other just before or just after Christmas. And they've been waiting on this piece, uh, for a year and a half now, a little more than a year and a half.
00:24:13
E dolla dolla
And yeah it's just like, I don't know what to tell you.
00:24:14
Jack Thomas
Wow.
00:24:16
E dolla dolla
like I do everything. So it's going to take that amount of time.
00:24:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:24:20
E dolla dolla
you know and also And also, the reality is um making objects is not the most profitable part of my business at this point.
00:24:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Interesting. Yep.
00:24:27
E dolla dolla
So like I got to pay my bills. If I charged you five times as much, then I would be able to prioritize this piece more.
00:24:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:24:36
Jack Thomas
I think we all wish we could price things as though our clients knew how fucking hard it is to make this stuff, but they don't.
00:24:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair.
00:24:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, they don't.
00:24:44
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:24:45
Jack Thomas
They don't. That was a big wake up call for me. ah They can appreciate it and see how beautiful it is, but they don't place the same sentimental value on what it took to make it as we do.
00:24:48
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:24:54
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:24:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, I'm wondering if that's a failure on our parts to show them.
00:24:55
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:24:58
Jack Thomas
No, they don't care.
00:24:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, they don't care.
00:24:59
Jack Thomas
They don't care.
00:25:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know.
00:25:00
Jack Thomas
i
00:25:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, you you're right.
00:25:01
E dolla dolla
I love I love how fast you were with that answer.
00:25:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Some people don't.
00:25:04
E dolla dolla
Because it's true.
00:25:04
Jack Thomas
No, it's it's true. It is true. um and And Paul, i I don't mean to I don't want to like totally, you know, railroad railroad your opinion on that. I think that there are.
00:25:11
E dolla dolla
No, please do.
00:25:15
Jack Thomas
Eric, do not encourage me. Do not encourage me.
00:25:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
00:25:19
Jack Thomas
I don't need it.
00:25:22
Jack Thomas
um I think that there are clients who care about the the heirloom nature of a given process. And they care about the sort of sexiness of woodworking and you know the the the finer points of it.
00:25:36
Jack Thomas
But they they don't care. OK, I have got to ah you know cut this dovetail joint exactly perfectly. I'm using this. you know Japanese saw to like shave this off and blah. They don't care about those things. And those are the things that take time and time is money. They can only care so much because they only know so much.
00:25:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like it. I like it. Even, when even when you shut me down, I like it. That's great. Um, so you know, you know what, what actually plays to a lot of hobbyist strengths is skill sets in other areas. Like Mary, you have an incredible skill set in video editing, video record, you know, like you, you are armed to the teeth in that because of your day job. So that, I mean, in theory, you can pivot to those things around your woodworking life and do them well. Yeah.
00:26:24
E dolla dolla
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And.
00:26:25
E dolla dolla
I mean, that's like a a very fortunate position to be in, which I think the majority of folks can't, unfortunately, relate to. But yeah, I mean, I get to play around with cameras and lenses.
00:26:38
E dolla dolla
And I think I have a pretty good eye because I'm a designer. And and i will like when I curate my page, actually, I've gotten a lot of comments recently from folks like, oh, yeah, your page stands out because it's like a very specific brand of you and like the kind of thing that you post.
00:26:51
E dolla dolla
It's very, you can tell it's like, specifically curated. So, I mean, that's, I don't know, not everyone can do that. It's a lot of time and effort and it is expensive. Learning, ah like, both but both money and time wise, it takes so much time to learn what good video is or, you know,
00:27:11
E dolla dolla
You look like you're about to say something to me. It is expensive. You're exactly right. Like, I'm not going to argue that, but my point was going to be, well, woodworking is fucking expensive. Yeah, it's all expensive and so much time to learn.
00:27:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And all of it, all of it's expensive.
00:27:21
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:27:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then you realize making the object is only a small part of the whole sales cycle story. Then there's the marketing and the sales and the the branding and the logo and the customer relations and yeah.
00:27:29
E dolla dolla
Yep. Yep.
00:27:33
E dolla dolla
and And again, like the the exorbitant amount that you spend to go to shows to get yourself in front of that audience, or that, again, you're you're going the social media route. Okay, so now I'm going to decide to ah invest in Instagram and YouTube. Those are the two most marketable places. TikTok Shore, but it's a younger audience, and so we're talking about people who have expendable income who can buy your art. so Now I have to buy a new phone to make sure my phone has the the highest quality image possible.
00:27:59
E dolla dolla
I have to buy equipment and lighting so that I can learn how to photograph, probably buy in a DSLR. Now I got to buy a higher end DSLR so that I can make video on it. So I'm already five grand deep in just equipment before I even know how to fucking use it.
00:28:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:28:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:28:12
E dolla dolla
So what's the difference between that and spending that money on say a $10,000 booth at the New York craft show.
00:28:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I hear ya.
00:28:20
Jack Thomas
I mean, for people who aren't in your position.
00:28:21
E dolla dolla
Can I
00:28:22
Jack Thomas
Oh, sorry, go ahead, Mary.
00:28:23
E dolla dolla
Well, I was just gonna ask, for the people who, your clients who you also make the video of the piece, do they, does that add at all to the value? Like, do they- It doesn't add to what I charge, but it definitely like- But do they like the fact that there's a video that- Oh, the majority of my clients find me through social media at this point. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. But like, do you think that, so you wouldn't charge more if you didn't make a video?
00:28:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or church less.
00:28:50
E dolla dolla
I wouldn't charge money. Oh, sorry, yes. Yeah, yeah. ah No, the video, like so I admit that I'm odd in that like the the money aspect of it is not the most important aspect of it to me. And that's not, I'm very aware of how that sounds like coming out of my mouth, but it's not it's not from a perspective of I have money so I don't have to care because even when I like really, really didn't have money,
00:29:18
E dolla dolla
It was, um, I care more about the object and I will figure out how to pay my bills. I would rather have a job and be able to make the best object I can. And, uh, so part of the reason I stopped and am stopping taking commissions is because, uh, the limitations they're now placing on me and the stress they're placing on me because I haven't increased my prices substantially.
00:29:41
E dolla dolla
Um, is, is starting to be a drain. i see okay Um, but even like before I was making videos, I like the videos are just the thing that pays the bill that allows me to make objects. They are vehicle to an end.
Pricing Strategy and Selling Venues
00:29:55
E dolla dolla
Gotcha. Okay.
00:29:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So I wanted to get through this. That's super interesting, Eric. I'm not cutting you off by any means, but how do we increase price point? I want to come back, come back to that. Cause we've been spiraling, you know, all over the place. So better marketing size of audience. If you can grow a big audience, you can ask a lot of money for it. Period. Right. Number two, uh, Jack that you contributed this one. Does it matter where you sell? Can you talk about where, how that impacts this?
00:30:24
Jack Thomas
Yeah, absolutely. I think it does matter where you sell and social media has kind of turned things upside down with that.
00:30:30
E dolla dolla
Mm hmm.
00:30:31
Jack Thomas
But if we think about if we think about mostly like IRL, you know, in in- person selling for just a second. um If you are selling like, let's say at a seasonal craft market, you know, Black Friday is upon us and and Christmas markets are are nigh, right? So people are gonna be selling tons of things at craft markets with pop-up easy-up tents. But then there are also people who are selling out of ah collective craft and makers markets, like the one that we talked about earlier. You had to join a gallery, you're part of a gallery with other artists. That's a different tier of pricing and definitely higher, I would argue. um And then ah if you have a physical shop, if someone comes into your physical shop, that carries a certain authority and psychologically they understand that you have this overhead.
00:31:13
Jack Thomas
that allows you to charge more for something and then way way way up there is selling in a gallery and this I think would go for woodworking as much as anything that I I do or teach um if you're selling in a gallery things are going to be extra high not just for the prestige of being in the gallery but also because the gallerist is taking a cut you know of that thing and then at least for me uh Eric it sounds like this might not be the case for you but when I do a commission I charge the
00:31:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:31:39
Jack Thomas
fuck out of it because I do not like doing them and they're usually for very, very rich people who I know can afford it, you know? And so I think it does matter where you're selling and there is a tier structure to that and you have to pay attention to what the prices are in those places.
00:31:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, Jack. Is this like, how do you...
00:32:01
E dolla dolla
That's called knowledge and experience right there is what that is.
00:32:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jesus Christ, like the way you rattle that off so effortlessly.
00:32:04
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:32:07
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:32:07
Jack Thomas
Look, i i spent I spent a long time teaching really, really ah meek college kids to sack up and have the confidence that they deserve to have.
00:32:17
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:32:17
Jack Thomas
ah So that's half the job of being a college professor.
00:32:18
E dolla dolla
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:20
Jack Thomas
It's half technical instruction and half existential therapy.
00:32:20
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:32:22
Jack Thomas
so
00:32:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Awesome.
00:32:23
E dolla dolla
That's ah so so I mean, to that point, exactly when there's a ah blanket chest that I made when I was in school and the first show I ever did.
00:32:23
Jack Thomas
you know
00:32:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Awesome.
00:32:33
E dolla dolla
And this is directly related to not only like being a college professor and teaching people how to stack up. I did. That's her quote, not mine.
00:32:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was just, Erica was just laughing about that.
00:32:42
E dolla dolla
and ah
00:32:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was trying to muffle my laugh. I just kept saying sack up in the back of my head and then you said it again.
00:32:45
E dolla dolla
Is that.
00:32:51
E dolla dolla
That's, guys, there's so many t-shirts already this episode.
00:32:52
Jack Thomas
oh I wear a size small.
00:32:54
E dolla dolla
um So, but but but but also to the point of ah like your audience matters, right? the that I made a blanket chest when I was in school and I still have it.
00:33:08
E dolla dolla
and The first i went back there I like how you looked over your shoulder. you have one Yeah, it's that one back there.
00:33:14
Jack Thomas
Aww.
00:33:15
E dolla dolla
ah But like that room is dark. You can't see it anyway. and see ah So um I took that to the first show I ever did after school. And i it was it was a craft show, right?
00:33:27
E dolla dolla
It's like outdoors, intense. People are selling spoons and cutting boards and and leather you know goods and whatnot. And I priced it at $3,000.
00:33:38
E dolla dolla
and ah nobody was interested. One person asked how much it costs. And I told him the price and he literally laughed in my face like audibly was like, ha. And I was like, well, cool, bro. ah Maybe a year later, no, it was a real dick move. like A year later, or so I did the Philly furniture show. And in the meantime, I had spoken to ah my teacher And he basically reamed me out for charging $3,000.
00:34:06
E dolla dolla
He was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:07
Jack Thomas
reaped you out.
00:34:10
E dolla dolla
He told me to sack the fuck up. um And he he was like, no less than $4,500.
00:34:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
up.
00:34:17
E dolla dolla
And so that's what I listed it at at the show. And multiple people were genuinely interested. And I don't think it's the increase in the price point. It was just a different clientele in the context of a craft show. That piece made no sense because people were going there expecting to spend 20, 50, a hundred dollars. And then somebody's like, give me $3,000 for a giant oak blanket chest. And they were like, why what? And then in the context of the Philly furniture show.
00:34:45
E dolla dolla
where people are selling pieces for five, 10, $20,000 and they're selling home goods that you're investing in and bringing into your house for the next 50 years, it made complete sense.
00:34:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so we have better marketing sizes. Grow your audience. Number one, where you sell. Number two, that's clear. Eric, you're in and don't really put the the exclamation point on that.
00:35:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's excellent.
00:35:08
Jack Thomas
It's better product.
00:35:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, number three, make a better product. How about that? uh improve your skills improve your skills sack up make a better more make a better product with more complexity or build things you know have a better price point you know a dining room table has a better price point than an end table or you know a built-in for some reason because it's part of the house
00:35:14
E dolla dolla
Yeah, don't suck.
00:35:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
has a higher price point than something that can be you know moved. So build a better product.
Skill Improvement and Market Perception
00:35:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know have Have you done that in your in your journeys, trying to increase increase price point?
00:35:49
Jack Thomas
Now, but when we say better, do we do we really mean better or do we just mean more expensive?
00:35:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, yeah yeah now you get, oh, Mary loves this.
00:35:52
E dolla dolla
Oh, that's a good question. That's a good question.
00:35:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How do you define better?
00:36:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like for me, my early tea boxes were a little bit crude.
00:36:01
E dolla dolla
Yes, that's true.
00:36:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And since then they've become more refined. Like the the proportions have been nicer. The wood is nicer than what is a bit more.
00:36:11
E dolla dolla
But are they better?
00:36:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it depends i on either the holder. Sure. Let's, you know, but I mean, we could argue.
00:36:19
E dolla dolla
Sure, when she says it, you're like, that's a great point. But when I say it,
00:36:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, no, no. No, no, no. I mean, yeah, yeah build a product that has more appeal to the masses is what I guess I'm trying to say.
00:36:29
E dolla dolla
But is it so, so is this, is this the build a better mousetrap argument?
00:36:30
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:36:33
E dolla dolla
You know, like, what do you mean?
00:36:35
Jack Thomas
Well, yeah, what does that what does that mean?
00:36:35
E dolla dolla
The, the, you know, the saying build a better mousetrap and they'll, they'll beat a path to your door. I do not.
00:36:42
Jack Thomas
No, no.
00:36:42
E dolla dolla
You don't know that. Paul, do you know that? This is like parting the kimono.
00:36:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've heard it.
00:36:46
E dolla dolla
This is don't fuck it this is not a kimono moment, OK?
00:36:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Are we parting the kimono now?
00:36:49
E dolla dolla
This is not a moment.
00:36:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh shit.
00:36:51
E dolla dolla
The saying is, if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door, meaning that, like I don't remember who said it, um but it was an inventor in the maybe turn of the 20th century.
00:37:02
E dolla dolla
And the idea is, if you build a better product, the marketing will happen, which is complete fucking horseshit, because marketing is half the goddamn battle.
00:37:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:37:11
E dolla dolla
right like you can't you can't like this is the fallacy of like the woodworker in their shop looking out over the cherry tree is the sunsets and he's just you know toiling away with a hand play like nobody gives a fuck to Jack's point nobody's paying you to have a shop overlooking a cherry tree in a sunset like nobody cares your job is to make a product yeah but your
00:37:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:37:33
E dolla dolla
Yes, you care because that that's the life that you live, but the people who are paying you to make an object don't give a shit what your shop looks like. They care about the thing that they're going to interact with, which is why like people still pay like Damien Hirst, even though he's a fucking asshole.
00:37:48
Jack Thomas
Uh.
00:37:49
E dolla dolla
you know like is That wild.
00:37:50
Jack Thomas
Uh.
00:37:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:37:51
Jack Thomas
Buh-huh-huh.
00:37:55
Jack Thomas
I hope he hears this. ah
00:37:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. All right. but but But come on. Let's not get caught up in the in the defining a better product, but building better shit does allow you to raise your price point.
00:38:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Come on. It does.
00:38:08
E dolla dolla
I would say, uh, yes.
00:38:09
Jack Thomas
It does.
00:38:11
E dolla dolla
Uh, yeah, sure. In general. But for me, I don't know if I would have said like better per se, but I knew my clients more. So I specifically changed my design style to fit a specific kind of client.
00:38:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:38:27
E dolla dolla
And for me that You sold yourself.
00:38:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's smart.
00:38:27
Jack Thomas
Oh, is that smart?
00:38:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's smart. so It depends what your goals are.
00:38:32
E dolla dolla
Well, I mean, I wanted to explore that kind of style.
00:38:33
Jack Thomas
o
00:38:35
E dolla dolla
like in I mean, my stuff in that right now is pretty contemporary. California loves that stuff. That is 100% what's in interior design. like That clientele, it worked.
00:38:47
E dolla dolla
So I mean, in Philly, it might be different. I don't know. I don't think I'm going to take commissions right now.
00:38:49
Jack Thomas
But do you love making it?
00:38:51
E dolla dolla
Yeah, I loved it. I mean, I love exploring different styles.
00:38:52
Jack Thomas
Okay, okay.
00:38:55
E dolla dolla
And right now, I'm stuck in one kind, but I don't know. I'm also open to explore in different styles. It's just, I think that was something that I recognized that if I wanted to take on more commission work, that was a very easy avenue for me to do because I expand my portfolio to say like, like, this is all stuff that kind of matches your aesthetic, you should buy from me.
00:39:17
E dolla dolla
But right now, I don't know.
00:39:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, this brings up a point that Jack brought up, which is, do you build think do you increase price point by building things that are trendy?
00:39:19
E dolla dolla
Oh, yeah.
00:39:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, yeah that was one of your your your points you brought up.
00:39:30
E dolla dolla
How much can you get for a river table?
00:39:32
Jack Thomas
i I knew you were going to say River Table, and I'm so excited that you did. I'm so excited that you did. um I mean, no shade on people who make River Tables, I guess, maybe sort of kind of, no shade.
00:39:41
E dolla dolla
Shade.
00:39:42
Jack Thomas
Maybe a little...
00:39:42
E dolla dolla
There's a lot of shade on this on this podcast.
00:39:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Lots of shade. There's a lot of shade.
00:39:44
Jack Thomas
Oh, whew!
00:39:44
E dolla dolla
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
00:39:45
Jack Thomas
Okay, okay. Total shade on people who make River Tables.
00:39:46
E dolla dolla
No, we're growing fucking oak trees on this podcast.
00:39:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, okay.
00:39:49
Jack Thomas
Amazing. Yeah, i I think that there are two questions here that are that are interrelated. and And Mary, I hope you didn't take any offense to me being like, is that smart? Because we're coming from two different paradigms, I think.
00:40:00
Jack Thomas
like In the world of fine art, if you if you change something, if you change your style to suit what you think potential clients might be, you're an absolute sellout. right And such is not necessarily the case in craft.
00:40:12
Jack Thomas
But I think there's a fine line. even And again, art versus crafting, we could go on that all day.
00:40:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or design, design.
00:40:16
Jack Thomas
But yeah.
00:40:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
mary Mary's thinking design, like I needed to fit their space.
00:40:19
Jack Thomas
Yeah. right yeah yeah yeah so if you um you know if you are making things that are trendy i mean if you enjoy making them i i guess it's fine but trends come and go and i think that one thing is certain whether it's art design craft if you want to have a dedicated clientele you have to have a dedicated style
00:40:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like she's trying to solve their problem. Mary, am I speaking for you correctly?
00:40:24
E dolla dolla
Yeah. Yes, that's correct.
00:40:45
Jack Thomas
If you are constantly changing your style, even if it's for the sake of, you know, discovering something new or evolving, at some point it will just look like you're addicted to novelty. If you do it too much, people need to be able to know what they can get from you, what to expect from you.
00:41:00
E dolla dolla
addicted to novelty.
00:41:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, Jack, stop it!
00:41:01
E dolla dolla
God damn.
00:41:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have me thinking like...
00:41:03
E dolla dolla
She's just out here. see that We have so many names for this episode right now.
00:41:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, you had me...
00:41:09
E dolla dolla
ah
00:41:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
cause like I change my shit all the time because i'm i'm I'm constantly learning and I want to try this and I want to try that. But people say I have an overlying style, so I guess...
00:41:17
E dolla dolla
Well, so yes, yes.
00:41:18
Jack Thomas
Mm hmm.
00:41:19
E dolla dolla
And that that's a thing that like, is fascinating to me.
00:41:21
Jack Thomas
I would agree.
00:41:22
E dolla dolla
This this piece I'm currently making on Elise and Larissa have both at separate points in separate conversations, just been like, ah such an Eric piece. And I'm like, well, I don't what is it about it?
00:41:34
E dolla dolla
Like, I don't know what it is about this thing that you're identifying as like, this is a stylistic choice that I employ often the current cabinet.
00:41:40
Jack Thomas
There's a really fine line.
00:41:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's Wow.
00:41:41
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:41:42
Jack Thomas
There's a really fine line here. You want people to say, oh, of course that was made by Eric Curtis. But you don't want people to say, oh, of course Eric Curtis made that.
00:41:54
Jack Thomas
There is a difference.
00:41:54
E dolla dolla
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:55
Jack Thomas
you know You want to be able to keep your style fresh by introducing small evolutions of styles, small evolutions of new techniques, but don't go whole hog into you know fucking river tables or something.
00:42:06
Jack Thomas
Please don't do that. um I will lose all my faith in humanity.
00:42:08
E dolla dolla
I'm going to make a river table for you, Jack.
00:42:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, uh, Jack, Jack, Jack, there's only one person sitting.
00:42:12
Jack Thomas
Please, Eric, don't.
00:42:15
E dolla dolla
You're going to get three river tables on our way to you.
00:42:19
Jack Thomas
No, please.
00:42:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, there's, there's only one person here who has made a river table that I know of.
00:42:24
Jack Thomas
Who? Is it Eric?
00:42:28
E dolla dolla
Listen, I put a boat, I put a boat in it.
00:42:28
Jack Thomas
It's you. Is it you, Paul? What?
00:42:31
E dolla dolla
i
00:42:31
Jack Thomas
Are you kidding? OK, we're going to go way off topic here again if we can.
00:42:33
E dolla dolla
Uh, here's, here's the thing.
00:42:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Oh my God.
00:42:36
E dolla dolla
Here's the thing.
00:42:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're Eric.
00:42:39
E dolla dolla
All right. All right. We can come back. That's another after show topic.
00:42:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:42:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:42:42
E dolla dolla
Here's what I, here's what I want to do real quick, because, um, I like the idea of asking how do we increase our price as we get better, but we haven't given any practical application whatsoever.
00:42:53
E dolla dolla
So, uh, rather than like dancing around, like, as you get better, you should ask for more money.
00:42:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:42:59
E dolla dolla
Here's what I do. It was a very practical thing. I've done it multiple times. I make a piece. I go, okay, that's pretty good. I'm never going to make that same piece for another client. Right. But clients do often see a piece and they go, I want you to make that.
00:43:14
E dolla dolla
And I go, no, but I will make you something very similar. And they go, great. How much is it? And I charge twice as much as the last table.
00:43:21
Jack Thomas
That is bold and I love it.
00:43:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's called the fuck it price.
00:43:23
E dolla dolla
Well, that is, it is because I've already explored that idea.
00:43:25
Jack Thomas
love
00:43:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:43:27
E dolla dolla
And I don't want to, like, if I, if I have to get back into that head space to figure out what new thing I can explore, then it's going to be twice as much. But also, I also know that like, number one, there's a point of diminishing returns like that, that can't continue to compound at that, that rate.
00:43:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:43:42
E dolla dolla
But also I have for a large chunk of my career undercharged.
00:43:46
Jack Thomas
Love
00:43:48
E dolla dolla
So like.
00:43:50
Jack Thomas
it.
00:43:50
E dolla dolla
You know, like that's just an easy way for me to be like, okay, last time I severely undercharged, if I double it, I feel like not only am I probably going to get closer to where it should be, but also like I'm better than I was three years ago when I made that piece.
00:43:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:44:04
E dolla dolla
So I should be charging more money.
00:44:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:44:06
Jack Thomas
i think I think there's a really important ah really important observation here is that ah one way to increase the price point of what you sell is to increase the fucking price and just do it.
00:44:07
E dolla dolla
Just fucking double it.
00:44:16
Jack Thomas
ah you know i mean like
00:44:18
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:44:18
Jack Thomas
and and it's and it's the the But the important thing here, and i and I think Mary understands this all too well from architecture as well, sometimes the the more elite something is is perceived to be via its price, the more people want it.
00:44:19
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:44:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:44:31
E dolla dolla
all the time
00:44:32
Jack Thomas
You're sighing, and I know I hate it too, but it is the case.
00:44:32
E dolla dolla
but
00:44:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That psychology hurts me, but it's true.
00:44:37
Jack Thomas
It hurts me too. It really is.
00:44:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:44:38
Jack Thomas
I have i have more clients now that I charge $175 an hour than I did when I charged $100 an hour. And I'm enjoying the work more. And I think that the thing, that that thing has to hold true as well for people who are working in art,
Strategic Pricing and Market Trends
00:44:51
Jack Thomas
craft, and design.
00:44:51
Jack Thomas
If you want to make more money, but put a higher price on it. People will buy it.
00:44:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:44:56
Jack Thomas
You will find the right audience for it.
00:44:58
E dolla dolla
if if in this is a major asterisk, if you're good at what you do. Yeah, yeah if it's like, like, that is because because what happens so often is in in like, I think we're all guilty of this at some point early on in our career, we're not good enough.
00:45:03
Jack Thomas
Major asterisk.
00:45:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If, yeah, that's true, Eric.
00:45:05
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:45:15
E dolla dolla
to see what we're not good at, but we have enough experience to know that we're better than we're used than we used to be. So we think, oh, let me just charge $175 an hour, and then people laugh in your face at a craft show.
00:45:31
E dolla dolla
You know?
00:45:31
Jack Thomas
But you learn, right? And then you you come back down a little bit.
00:45:33
E dolla dolla
You did, yeah.
00:45:34
Jack Thomas
you know it's I think there's a back and forth there.
00:45:35
E dolla dolla
Yeah, and you go, you go go oh, my sack, okay.
00:45:38
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Oh, I sacked up too hard. like yeah
00:45:42
E dolla dolla
i saed I sacked too hard.
00:45:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He parted the kimono and the sack was too large. yeah that's a That's a real problem, Eric. um So, we all right, we've talked about, let's recap, because we've talked we've covered a lot of gun, better marketing, ah bigger audience, doesn't matter where, yes, it matters where, do make a better product or a different type of product that you know sells at a higher price point, just sack up and charge more. And that falls under the guise of,
00:46:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ask, talk to your friends. Like I was talking to keith Keith Johnson today and I'm like, how did you get to charging more? He's like, I don't know. I just talked to my friends and they told me to do it. And that's basically what Jack is saying.
00:46:20
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:46:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Just fucking charge more.
00:46:22
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:46:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like you're undercharging, change it. Okay. It's that simple. Uh, now there's a few other smaller pieces that I'd like to touch on briefly, which we haven't, which is scale. How big is the piece?
00:46:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Little things versus large things or valuable materials being integrated.
00:46:42
E dolla dolla
Yeah, both of those things matter hugely.
00:46:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i I have noticed artists who do things at very large scale seem to ask ah like a lot of money because the scale introduces logistical issues and material issues that inhibit most people from even trying it.
00:46:57
E dolla dolla
What logistical issues for sure, but I think there's also the like, there's an off factor there that doesn't exist like there's there's a.
00:47:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's an impression.
00:47:13
E dolla dolla
It's, it's, it's, it's like seeing a model of a cathedral and walking into a cathedral, you know, like, you're like, this is super cool when it's this big.
00:47:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right, right, right.
00:47:21
E dolla dolla
And then when it's, you know, Notre Dame, you're like, holy, how the fuck did they do this?
00:47:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:47:26
E dolla dolla
Right? There is, there is a a raw, awe inspiring factor to it.
00:47:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so totally.
00:47:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so.
00:47:31
E dolla dolla
And then. Go ahead.
00:47:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, so scale. Absolutely, Eric. like In person, you feel the scale issue. So if you see it in front of you, a big piece of sculpture or whatever it is, like sure. But also better materials. like One of my engraving mentors, Jeff Park, uses 24 karat gold, 18 karat gold, and he mixes it with copper and brass and and and silver and he inlays all these precious gems and like that that increases you know vastly the price point of what he can ask because it's loaded with gold and diamonds and and but but ah but for us it would be highly figured woods that that would be the equivalent for us yeah
00:48:05
E dolla dolla
That's wild. i Yes. I built a pure gold. Yeah. What if we did a gold river table? Wait. And put gems in it.
00:48:15
Jack Thomas
Ship it.
00:48:17
E dolla dolla
Oh my god. yeah like the The reality is...
00:48:22
E dolla dolla
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and And the reality is like, yes, those those um very expensive materials, regardless of what media they exist in, like those increase the value linearly of a piece.
00:48:37
E dolla dolla
But the person who has the skill to manipulate those highly valuable materials increases the value exponentially.
00:48:46
Jack Thomas
That's the caveat.
00:48:46
E dolla dolla
So, right.
00:48:48
Jack Thomas
That's the asterisk that I wanted to add because it's like I can imagine some people who are listening right now are going, Oh, okay.
00:48:49
E dolla dolla
what
00:48:54
E dolla dolla
yeah
00:48:54
Jack Thomas
I'm going to go like get some, I don't know, Ebony or something and, and, you know, make some, if you do not, if you don't have this skill.
00:49:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah, that's true.
00:49:03
Jack Thomas
if you don't have If you don't have the skill to apply to the materials or the scale, it's it's going to flop. I mean, one of the first things that I always teach my students is start working with humble materials and scale.
00:49:14
Jack Thomas
And there's an important reason for that. If you're working with shit that's too precious, then you're not going to experiment. You're not going to push the boundary. You're not going to go further because everything feels so dang precious, right? but So if you have the skill, yeah, add the add the precious material and it means something.
00:49:23
E dolla dolla
Yep.
00:49:28
Jack Thomas
Add the scale and it can mean something if people want it. But without the skill, none it doesn't matter.
00:49:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's cool. Good point.
00:49:33
E dolla dolla
Yeah, this is this is the figured what is argument, right?
00:49:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is.
00:49:36
E dolla dolla
Like that's what that is.
00:49:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Jack, what do you think, you know, cause we started the episode about Prince. What do you think about scarcity increasing price out in point? Like if you're saying this is a limited edition, only five exists. What do you think about that?
00:49:49
Jack Thomas
there's There's a reason that people think of painting as a primary art form, and printmaking is something that painters also do. ah you know instead of Instead of being a thing in its own right, which, I mean, that's a whole other you know podcast episode for a different podcast that's not about woodworking. It's like it's super frustrating.
00:50:06
Jack Thomas
I think that I don't. um I think that you guys don't suffer the same way that I suffer there because people sort of know that ah prints like hand pulled prints even copper etchings, you know, I make super detailed copper etchings and woodblock carvings, but people know that I have one matrix, that piece of copper, that piece of what's called a matrix, I have one, and then I pull multiple sheets of paper, you know multiple prints from that one thing.
00:50:32
Jack Thomas
When you guys make an addition of something, you are making three completely separate things right with no ah no matrix to just like copy off of as easily.
00:50:42
Jack Thomas
So scarcity means something different for you guys than it means for me, but at the same time, if I know that there are three of something exactly the same,
00:50:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:50:51
Jack Thomas
it's not going to feel quite as precious to me as if I know that there's only one of them, whether it was made by commission or not.
00:50:59
E dolla dolla
I'm trying to figure out like, I hear what you're saying that the, the process of making multiples is different for us because the like,
00:51:11
E dolla dolla
just the nature of the materials, but I'm also, there's something in me, I'm debating with the idea that most people who walk, let's, again, let's just, we'll put ourselves in a craft show, because I was just at the PMA, and um people walk into these booths and they see these pieces of furniture, and most of them that are at a furniture show like that, not all, but most, are um production pieces.
00:51:36
E dolla dolla
but they're high-end production pieces. And most people who walk into that booth can't tell if that's the only object like that that's ever been made or if it's a production piece. And I think what that does is it raises the value of the production piece and lowers the value of the one-off pieces.
00:51:53
E dolla dolla
So we have this weird thing of like, people know that prints are made in multiples. They just know that inherently. And that obviously has its cons for you.
00:52:00
Jack Thomas
And then, obviously, that's the topic.
00:52:02
E dolla dolla
In our world, when you're surrounded, like if there are three booths of woodworkers and somebody walks into one guy's booth and they go, well, you know, this is a one ah of a kind table because this piece of wood is the only piece of wood that's ever existed like that, but it's a production piece.
00:52:03
Jack Thomas
There's more world with your surroundings.
00:52:18
E dolla dolla
And then they walk into my booth next door and I'm charging three times as much because I go, I've only ever made this table once. They're like, well, what that's what that guy just said too.
00:52:29
Jack Thomas
i think I think maybe none of us is rich enough to be in the right mindset to answer these questions.
00:52:29
E dolla dolla
So like the prices.
00:52:34
Jack Thomas
you know Because i and I know that rich people inherently think differently, right? like my My husband is an architect, and he he has ah client had a client who ah who said to him, Greg, anyone can build a $10 million dollars mountain house.
00:52:49
Jack Thomas
How are you going to make mine special, right?
00:52:51
E dolla dolla
i I love this guy's voice and I want you to do the rest of the episode in that voice.
00:52:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but You have to speak Jack, you have to speak in that voice the rest of the talk.
00:52:57
Jack Thomas
Absolutely not. I can't do it. I can't do it. I'm so sorry.
00:53:02
E dolla dolla
If you could put a monocle on for me, that would be ideal. yeah
00:53:07
Jack Thomas
Yeah, exactly. But but there are there are people out there who will who will say, well, how many of these have you made? you know Or or good could i could I have you?
00:53:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow.
00:53:15
E dolla dolla
Sure.
00:53:17
Jack Thomas
I love this production piece that you have, but but I want it customized with some inlay. Could you put some inlay on this? you know And they they ask for modifications of things you've already made. and None of us is fucking rich enough to think like that.
00:53:29
Jack Thomas
um and i And I don't know that um you know there aren't that many people like that.
00:53:29
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:53:33
Jack Thomas
So I don't think that we have to cater to selling to them. We can raise our price points in other ways rather than at the very highest echelon of the price spectrum. you know
00:53:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So I think we're running long in the tooth. We still have another segment, which is what are the ethics and morality of raising price point. But before we do, I want to review some of the things we've talked about, about raising price point, uh, better marketing, where you're selling, make a better thing, suck up, uh, sack up.
00:54:04
Jack Thomas
Sack up, sir.
00:54:05
E dolla dolla
Suck it. Yeah, I was gonna say suck up.
00:54:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, that was separate. ah Sack up and charge more, and maybe talking to your friends will convince you of that.
00:54:08
E dolla dolla
Ah.
00:54:13
E dolla dolla
position
00:54:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Scale. Size does play with this. Materials used does play with this. Whether you make things that are trendy or not is a decision whether you enjoy making those things or not.
00:54:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Scarcity, do you make it a limited edition? Do you customize it for the customer? Obviously, customizing costs more money. If you monogram it or make it exactly to their specifications, you know you can raise the price point.
Collaborations and Expanding Visibility
00:54:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In fact, some of the boxes I've made, have it the price point has doubled because of certain modifications that the customer asked for.
00:54:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um and One last thing, collaboration. Often if you collaborate with it with someone who has a very large audience and a social media audience and you collaborate on a piece together and you both cross post the hell out of it, you're suddenly introduced to 50,000 people who never saw you before.
00:55:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Duh, who wouldn't want to do that? You know, like it doesn't take a genius to know that that is good for you in terms of marketing and introducing yourself instantly to a whole host of new buyers.
00:55:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So friends, please asterisk go away.
00:55:22
E dolla dolla
Eric's now worried that he's going to get a lot better. I do want to put one asterisk on that. which is like well like people and i'm not I'm not saying this from me. like I'm just saying in general, people know when you want to collaborate with them because it would be a really fun time and experience and you can learn and grow and be friends together versus when you're trying to use their audience.
00:55:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. Or they're trying to use you. Yep.
00:55:50
E dolla dolla
Right.
00:55:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:55:50
E dolla dolla
So that, that is a thing like just um listen, we've said it before on this podcast.
00:55:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:55:55
E dolla dolla
We'll say it again. Just don't be a dick, you know?
00:55:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I mean, have authentic, you know, desire to collaborate.
00:56:01
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:56:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And by the way, if it introduces you to their audience, wonderful, obviously.
00:56:02
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
00:56:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
asterisk man. So Eric, Eric, now that you and I are already in the adversarial roles, I thought maybe we could transition to Web's debate club.
00:56:14
Jack Thomas
Oh!
00:56:15
E dolla dolla
Uh-oh.
00:56:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is, woodworking is bullshit.
00:56:21
E dolla dolla
I'm trying to come up trying to come over with a theme song.
00:56:26
E dolla dolla
I feel like you should do it in your Southern accent, though.
00:56:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah That was cut Eric, that was Carmichaelian by Culture Club, which you just fucking sang.
00:56:28
Jack Thomas
Yes!
00:56:29
E dolla dolla
Jack.
00:56:34
E dolla dolla
No, I know. but copyrighted Copyright issues.
00:56:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no.
00:56:38
E dolla dolla
I'm aware.
00:56:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was terrible. Okay.
00:56:42
E dolla dolla
You're welcome.
00:56:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So we thought we would have an episode of Whibs Debate Club. ah And the question is, well, we talked about all the ways you can increase price points.
00:56:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Should you? Are there any moral or ethical considerations with charging people rich people more?
00:57:01
Jack Thomas
Rich people more.
00:57:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you charge rich people more?
00:57:03
Jack Thomas
Can you charge rich people more?
00:57:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes or no? ah What about non-rich people? You know, people who just average, you know, middle America, do you charge them or what about raising price point?
00:57:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What if your whole customer base is nothing but people with tons of disposable income? Does that present ah moral a moral or ethical dilemma to you? So the way we're gonna run the Wibbs Debate Club is Eric's bad cop, yes.
00:57:31
E dolla dolla
You son of a bitch.
00:57:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric is bad cop, yes.
00:57:34
E dolla dolla
i want I want to put another asterisk on here and say everything I'm about to say is not the opinion of me or this podcast. To be honest, I don't necessarily think it's bad cop in this scenario.
00:57:45
E dolla dolla
Oh, you just wait till I say what I say.
00:57:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, maybe Mary is bad cop.
00:57:46
Jack Thomas
Oh! oh
00:57:48
E dolla dolla
oh well think okay I think Mary is the closest to a sociopath out of the four of us. so
00:57:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Mary is truly bad cop and I will play good cop. And I, again, Eric and I do not necessarily hold these positions. We're just pretending we're role-playing.
00:58:04
E dolla dolla
I never regret saying that because I don't know your perspective that you're going to be taking.
00:58:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:58:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Eric. Eric, are there any moral or ethical considerations about raising price point? Please present your first argument. Why not?
00:58:20
E dolla dolla
Paul. Do you have a family?
00:58:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do at the moment.
00:58:24
E dolla dolla
You have a wife?
00:58:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:58:26
E dolla dolla
Yeah, you have a child. You have a house.
00:58:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do. Uh-huh.
00:58:30
E dolla dolla
Do you like food?
00:58:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you
00:58:31
E dolla dolla
Jesus Christ. Do you like eating? How's healthcare care in this country right now? How are we doing with that? How's our social safety net? Is it doing pretty great? The eggs. So how are the eggs? You just but you pay $60 an egg?
00:58:43
E dolla dolla
So here's the thing.
00:58:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
$60.
00:58:45
E dolla dolla
Here's the thing. You have developed a skill set. I have developed a skill set over years, decades to the point where we are exceptional at our craft. We are masters of our design.
00:58:56
E dolla dolla
We are masters of the the material that we work in and we know how to market ourselves. And the reality is, I have a mortgage to pay at the end of the month. And ah I need some rich people to understand that they need to support the fucking craft. And it takes me hours upon hours to make an object. And so I don't have an issue raising the price point for somebody who has that type of expendable income when there are people who don't have that type of expendable income, who also deserve to have beautiful objects. And I am of the opinion, Bernie Sanders style, that the rich people need to pull their fucking weight in this country so that we can actually make beautiful objects.
Balancing Accessibility and High Pricing
00:59:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm. Mmm. Oh wow.
00:59:38
Jack Thomas
vermont Vermont represent.
00:59:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Take, take it easy. 55 year old Mike Tyson or whatever the hell he was.
00:59:44
E dolla dolla
go ahead He's 58 and that was sad.
00:59:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, okay.
00:59:46
E dolla dolla
Carry on.
00:59:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. ah You're rich, right? Uh, rich people. Yeah. Let's yeah. Why, how did they get rich by taking from the environment indiscriminately polluting our natural resources to their betterment of their checkbook?
01:00:00
E dolla dolla
So far you're making my point.
01:00:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, And um by the way, let me ask this, do you like breathing?
01:00:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do do you like not stuff you like not suffocating sometimes?
01:00:10
E dolla dolla
so Sometimes.
01:00:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's not get into that.
01:00:15
E dolla dolla
no
01:00:16
Jack Thomas
but Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't know you guys that well yet.
01:00:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you like breathing, Eric, you would realize that in particular for our particular form of art, and maybe you know Jack obviously is is is doing a different, but for us in particular,
01:00:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wood is a natural resource. And we like to pretend that it belongs to you. It belongs to me. It's on my land. where Where'd you get that land? You probably stole it from some indigenous person you know ah a century or two ago. But let's let's let's let's say that's the case. So it's on your land, but it contributes oxygen to the entire envirosphere. Yeah?
01:00:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're all breathing it, but you're going to cut it down. It's my, it's my wood and I'm going to charge so much for it that only the richest people can enjoy what came of that natural resource that belongs to all of us, motherfucker. So, you know, I think there is a moment to just say, maybe we should make some things that are not accessible to only the super wealthy.
01:01:16
E dolla dolla
That's a fair point, Paul. I see where you're going with that. Let me ask you this. Oh my God. You know that tree that you just cut down?
01:01:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
er
01:01:24
E dolla dolla
It's one of one, baby. It's one of one. So you're gonna tell me that the fields of New Zealand pine that they're they're raking And just chopping up and and throwing in the Home Depot slab section, just turning it into two by fours. That's equally as valuable as that bit of a curly Clara walnut that you just chopped down on a brother Hemsworth's tree on his field. And, uh, you're going to just slab that up and just sell it for for two 50 for a two by four.
01:01:53
E dolla dolla
because you believe in some kind of ah social structure that just devalues all meaning. How are you going to charge anything for your work if you think that that one species is the same as the next species?
01:02:05
E dolla dolla
that That this board is as equal as that board? That Jack who's been making things for 20 years is ah no more or less valuable than fucking Joe Schmo who just started making cutting boards last week.
01:02:16
E dolla dolla
How are you going to price that out, brother?
01:02:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah I'm sorry, last time I checked all trees ah produce roughly the same oxygen potential. I don't really know. I'll have to look that up.
01:02:24
E dolla dolla
What does oxygen have to do? We're talking about resources, baby.
01:02:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But anyway, uh, you know, speaking of resources, have you noticed how much an egg costs? At least in our house, it costs $60 because I raised them from chickens myself. But have you noticed how prices have gone lately?
01:02:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You motherfucker. Uh, people don't have a ton of expendable income to afford.
01:02:42
E dolla dolla
Which is exactly why rich people should support us so that we can then allow more beautiful objects to be in the hands of people who don't have that expendable income.
01:02:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:02:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, oh, yes, yes, I'm sure your little trickle down economics theory is going to work out wonderfully. But um the truth is, you know, and many people have written this, whether it's Plato, that everyone needs art in their life to be better themselves and form a better society. And by you pricing it so fucking high that no one can afford it, you're really cutting 80%, 90, 95% of society out of owning beautiful objects made by experienced artists. Okay, enough of this. Oh my God, Eric.
01:03:22
E dolla dolla
See that? He was losing, so he tapped out. This man was like, Mike Tyson on the ropes out here.
01:03:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah it's It's so hard playing.
01:03:28
E dolla dolla
I think i think that makes me Logan Paul, though, so I take that back.
01:03:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's
01:03:31
E dolla dolla
I should say, I don't think you want that comparison.
01:03:31
Jack Thomas
Oh.
01:03:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's It's so hard taking one side only, right? Because I always see multiple sides.
01:03:35
E dolla dolla
I know.
01:03:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Jack, ah Mary, how do you feel about some of the points that were raised? Do you want to react to any of them?
01:03:46
Jack Thomas
I think that you can have it both ways. like i i I own a table that Keith Johnson made. I only have that table because he gave it to me, um not because I could pay for it. But I also have these tiny little spoons ah made by another woodworker, these little teaspoons. And I use them every day. And they are so incredibly precious to me and so heirloom. And you know I think that Keith said that that table, if if I had had to purchase it, would have been like and maybe $4,500 or something like that.
01:04:18
Jack Thomas
um But the spoon was $3 and I bought several of them. And I find them just as precious as that table that that Keith gave me. Keith, don't be offended by that if you're listening.
01:04:29
Jack Thomas
um
01:04:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Keith, ah in fact, Keith told me about that table today when I was talking to him.
01:04:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's like, oh yeah, I gave her a table after our we recorded ah the ah the instruction.
01:04:33
Jack Thomas
Oh, yeah.
01:04:36
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:04:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What was it called? and Teachable, that's what, yeah.
01:04:40
Jack Thomas
Oh, for Teachable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I think that we don't have to choose, right? Like we can we can make gorgeous ah tables with, you know, miter dovetails or you know whatever the hell, ah fancy, fancy and insert fancy term here, but then we can also like make tiny little spoons, you know? And we we don't have to choose. We can support people who are at both ends of the spectrum of ah art by buying ability while also supporting ourselves.
01:05:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you market at multiple price points? All three, all four of us. Have you made things that cross many price points?
01:05:16
E dolla dolla
Yes.
01:05:16
Jack Thomas
Yeah, not the same object at different prices ever, but different objects at different prices.
01:05:20
E dolla dolla
Yeah, but yeah.
01:05:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, yeah me too.
01:05:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, me too.
01:05:21
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:05:23
E dolla dolla
What what I've ah so I haven't made small batch runs of things in a long time. And what I've taken to doing ah recently is i'll I'll still make small objects. And those objects I try to sell to, um you know, the people on Instagram or or my patrons for far less than I would like at a craft show, you know, something something that feels affordable.
01:05:47
E dolla dolla
And it's still a one-off object, but I don't those are play things and I'm not worried about what the you know Like people deserve to have beautiful objects and that is a throwaway object for me. So that's the thing that like What can you afford kind of kind of
Sam Maloof's Community Approach
01:06:01
E dolla dolla
thing?
01:06:01
E dolla dolla
You know, that that was a thing that i I, this might be apocryphal, but I've always kind of held onto it as like a goal in life is Sam Maloof towards the end of his career once he was Sam Maloof and was charging, you know, tens of thousands of dollars per rocking chair um would always leave kind of like one slot open of like the whatever you can afford to pay me kind of thing. And, you know,
01:06:29
E dolla dolla
that person could pay whatever they had, and he would make that chair. And then, you know, next year, he would do another one for somebody. So that that like concept of I'm I have enough. And this is the small way in which that I can re contribute. Whatever that way looks like for you, I think is an important thing to to maintain.
01:06:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I think all of us gave the answer the answers, yes. Like me, I definitely sell you know boxes throughout the year that are high priced, but then once a year, I don't know why, and it always falls around the holidays around October, November. I get this little thing in my belly, like I you know i have all this wood, all this natural resource that used to produce oxygen, Eric.
01:07:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and um And I feel like I need to put it in the hands of more people. And how can I do that? How can I make something quick that can get a lot of beautiful stuff out to a lot of people and it doesn't trash their finances.
01:07:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know what I mean? And that happens to me every year. And this year I am doing the same. And sure, I'm not making much money on it. And every day I do it, I think this will make a lot of people happy.
01:07:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And is that stupid? Is that smart? It depends on your financial situation. I'm a scientist.
01:07:40
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
01:07:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have a job. I have a JOB. It pays my bills. So I can afford to like take a moment and be like, okay, this will make a lot of people happy. Great. You know, I'll do it.
01:07:49
E dolla dolla
There's, there's also, um, not for nothing. There's also the opposite approach, which is around this time of year, a lot of people are making things for that same reason. Go to a craft show, go to an art show and have a budget, like whatever your reasonable budget is.
01:08:04
E dolla dolla
Hey, I'm going to spend, I've got $200 to spend on three gifts for, for family and friends and support people who are making things, you know?
01:08:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. I like it. All right, kids. Well, that's an hour and eight minutes. Boy, that went fast. And I feel like we skirted a bunch of issues, but there's more waiting for us.
01:08:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, Christmas creep has, as Eric,
01:08:26
E dolla dolla
Oh, speaking of the holidays, baby. For the active show, we talking to Christmas Creek.
01:08:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric has come up.
01:08:33
E dolla dolla
What I wanna know, what I wanna know is what have you guys
01:08:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
01:08:38
E dolla dolla
made?
01:08:38
E dolla dolla
Like we've all made things to sell around the holidays in the past. What have you made that you were like, this thing is gonna fucking slay? And it tanked, it tanked so hard.
01:08:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but Jack is covering her face, by the way, for a minute there. um Okay.
01:08:55
Jack Thomas
I don't want to talk about it.
01:08:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh we're Oh, we're going to talk about it, but it's going to be in the after show.
01:08:58
E dolla dolla
Are we talking about it?
01:09:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So thanks, everyone, you know, for tuning in today. Jack, thank you so much for the salient points you brought up today. I will definitely be re-listening to the show and thinking through some of the the points you raised because I can't absorb it all on the fly in the moment.
01:09:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I often listen back to the show and like reflect upon it. I'm sure Mary, you listen to the show after we record it, too.
01:09:22
E dolla dolla
Yeah, totally.
01:09:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
By the way, Mary hates hearing her own voice. That's why I asked.
01:09:28
E dolla dolla
She loves it.
01:09:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Jack, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And for those of you who want to hear more, um we have the Christmas creep and all and her military her military school background.
01:09:34
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
01:09:39
E dolla dolla
Oh, wait, wait, wait. We got to tell people about her. heard No, no, no, no, no.
01:09:45
Jack Thomas
oh oh
01:09:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah.
01:09:46
E dolla dolla
Her her survey, her thing.
01:09:48
E dolla dolla
Yeah.
01:09:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, sorry.
01:09:49
Jack Thomas
yeah okay sure um so in 2022 i published a book called artist therapy 26 secrets for studio success
01:09:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's only after show Christmas creep and Jack's foray into military school that that didn't work out.
01:09:55
E dolla dolla
Jack's military background.
01:09:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Jack, tell tell people what you're working on now, please.
01:10:08
Jack Thomas
And it's based on this like studio manual from when I taught at Georgia state university, my students felt like it was really valuable. It had kind of a cult following. They made these like unauthorized zines of it and traded it with all their friends and stuff like that.
01:10:19
Jack Thomas
So, you know, when teenagers are poaching your shit, very flattering, obviously good stuff.
01:10:19
E dolla dolla
Nice.
01:10:24
Jack Thomas
High praise, right? So um I published the book. the book has ah you know The book has some attention on it, not as much as I would like because I suck at marketing. um But i am I'm designing a year-long workshop that's based on the book. um And um I have a survey that you guys are, I guess, going to be awesome enough to share. Thank you for that. um To see like what people think to the point of what things should cost. How much do people think this should cost?
01:10:50
Jack Thomas
uh for a year-long course that has professional quality videos and you know knowing that i design courses for folks like keith at teachable and things like that um not at teachable anymore but um so i want to get people's feedback on that because ah to your point paul like i do have the means to not have to charge out the wazoo for this you know i can i can charge something that's fair and so i want to know what that is so that's what that survey is about yeah it's a lot of secrets
01:11:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. All right.
01:11:15
E dolla dolla
Hell yeah. yeah
01:11:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'll be interesting.
01:11:16
E dolla dolla
and
01:11:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
26 secrets. That's a lot of secrets.
01:11:19
E dolla dolla
That's one for every letter of the alphabet, baby.
01:11:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:11:21
Jack Thomas
Well, you you actually, you you heard you heard one of them in here.
01:11:21
E dolla dolla
That's quick math. and oh Go to military school, I believe.
01:11:24
Jack Thomas
So one of them is nested in this episode. Yeah.
01:11:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah yeah
01:11:29
E dolla dolla
its i ah Hold on.
01:11:29
Jack Thomas
Don't know. No, no, no. Decide not to. Decide not to is the...
01:11:34
E dolla dolla
oh that is that is One of them is sack up, right? One of them is sack up.
01:11:37
Jack Thomas
Oh, yeah, sack up, definitely.
01:11:39
E dolla dolla
ah what is Is the book still available for people to purchase?
01:11:43
Jack Thomas
Yeah, the e-book is available. um I have it on my website, jackthomas.art. the The book has its own whole like sub page, web page on that.
01:11:52
E dolla dolla
Let's go blow it up, let's go make it a best seller on Amazon, y'all.
01:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, Jack, Jack's now is the time to double the price real quick.
01:11:54
Jack Thomas
Aw, thanks guys.
01:11:58
E dolla dolla
100%, they'll never know.
01:11:59
Jack Thomas
I don't know.
01:11:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Double. All right.
01:12:02
Jack Thomas
It's a digital thing. and it I don't have to work on it. you know it's just ah It's just out there.
01:12:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Excellent.
01:12:06
E dolla dolla
Triple the price, that sounds great to me, I don't know.
01:12:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah All Thanks again, Jack. We appreciate you.
01:12:11
Jack Thomas
Thanks so much for having me.
01:12:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. We'll see you in the after show. For those of you who want to hear the after show, just subscribe to our Patreon. It's that easy. We'll see you next time.
01:12:18
E dolla dolla
Jingle jingle, bitches, Christmas creep.
01:12:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.