Transcript
1852media: Hello, hello. Welcome back to For Book's Sake. I'm Heather Roberts.
Veronica Adams: I am Veronica Adams and we are 1852 Media.
1852media: Indeed. And today we are going to be talking about book banning. And I know there's, oh, there's a big legal case going on right now that we should all be paying attention to.
Veronica Adams: Ugh. Ugh.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: And so that's, we are here to make you pay attention to it.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, in in full disclosure, I have a decal on the back of my car that says read band books. So like, you know, but that's what you're going to get from me today.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Let me just put that out there now.
1852media: 100%. Right. I mean, ah we are we are in the book publishing industry. We take free speech and you know freedom of expression very seriously and believe pretty much that you should be able to do what you want um with your freedom of expression and writing.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Absolutely.
1852media: You know, there are certain circumstances where it might be, you know, that that there should be regulations put on obviously we don't want, you know, retailers we understand retailers risk boundaries regarding certain types of literature, if you will, if you won't even call that.
1852media: um But these book bands, as we're calling them, that that we're not talking about extreme situations here where your mind just went.
Veronica Adams: No.
1852media: We're not talking about that.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: um You know, in this particular case, we're talking about books being in school districts being available for being checked out.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: So we're not like forcing anyone to read these books. They're just on the shelves available for a circulation.
Veronica Adams: That's right.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: No one's going to school and getting assigned these books as mandatory reading. They're just part of the public library collection.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Yes. That you can check out as a student.
Veronica Adams: Well, not in Escambia County, Florida, you can't.
1852media: I mean, depending on your name. No, not a degree, not a quarter, you can't. And that is the subject of this lawsuit.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: So this is a Pan America Center, Inc., et al., which et al., for those that don't know, means and others. um
Veronica Adams: Including Penguin Random House.
1852media: Yes, um versus the Escambia County School Board.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: It is a federal case and it was filed in the Northern District of Florida, Pensacola Division. It was filed back in 2023, I believe.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: um Let me go back to the factual background.
Veronica Adams: That sounds right.
1852media: Yeah, May 17th, 2023.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: in response to the board's actions to remove and restrict access to library books based on hostility to the ideas that they express and or their authors um or themes.
Veronica Adams: It's discrimination.
1852media: So, right.
Veronica Adams: Let's just call it what it is. It is discrimination.
1852media: So, we're talking about books like Toni Morrison's books or, you know, is is there a listing here?
Veronica Adams: Books with a point of view or by authors who belong to the alphabet or authors of color or stories about people of color, indigenous people.
1852media: Yes, yes.
1852media: Well, the the argument is that the board's restrictions and removals have disproportionately targeted books by or about people of color and or LGBTQ plus people.
Veronica Adams: Yes. Yes.
1852media: I mean, that's the allegation. Not a lot has been done to dispute that allegation. The board's response is essentially, well, it has such sexual content in it, and so we're removing it.
Veronica Adams: Well, that's a Hail Mary based on a Florida statute that was passed after the cause of action.
Veronica Adams: was created or existed in this case, right? So originally, I believe the statement of fact says that the Escambia County School Board started pulling all of these books and banning them or restricting access to them.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: And after that process started, a new state law in Florida was passed ah specific to books with sexual content in them. and the process for conducting a review of those books once they're challenged.
1852media: Right.
Veronica Adams: So it's kind of and a layered cause of action here insofar as a collection of books, about 150 of them are at issue here, were originally pulled and banned or restricted.
Veronica Adams: And then now the question is, First and foremost, is that a First Amendment violation? And secondly, does the Florida statute that has been passed since this lawsuit was filed ah give the school board the right to continue banning a smaller collection of the books that are in question based on sexual content?
1852media: Right.
Veronica Adams: And is the board in violation of the statute for not following the review policy? Because allegedly, they have done nothing to review the books that have been banned.
1852media: That's the biggest issue of the amended complaint that was just recently filed 14 days ago.
Veronica Adams: Uh -huh. That's right.
1852media: And the the plaintiffs are alleging that the school board has essentially in the school district has done nothing in the review process, that it's just a stalemate, that they're just sitting on this and they've they've made no actionable, you know,
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: movement towards the review process of any of these books to either, you know, officially ban them or to put them back on the shelves.
Veronica Adams: Great.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: And I will add one one thing to what you said is that it's also about age range and age group or grade level for which reading would be inappropriate or unsuitable.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: And that does not, if there is an age range where it's unsuitable, that doesn't mean that the book is taken out of the library entirely. It simply means that the, you know, that age range isn't allowed to check it out.
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: So, and that would make sense. There are a certain books that might not be appropriate for a first grader, right?
Veronica Adams: Of course, of course.
1852media: I mean, I think we all reasonable people can realize that certain books, ah shouldn't you know ah parents also should have the the ability to say, I want my kid reading that, I don't want my kid reading that, especially at a you know certain age.
Veronica Adams: Absolutely. Absolutely.
1852media: That's fine. the The problem is when parents are saying, I don't want your kid reading that, that's the issue.
Veronica Adams: That's right.
1852media: um And kids read, kids are, if you've ever been around them or have them.
Veronica Adams: Raise your hand if you were ever a kid who read age inappropriate material.
1852media: Yeah, right, right.
Veronica Adams: Like, come on now. If you, if you've been a reader, chances are at some point you were reading ah up above your age and maturity levels.
1852media: Correct.
Veronica Adams: Especially, I mean, those of us who were raised by less involved parents, right?
1852media: And that's what I was going to say. I mean, it it it varies by child, right?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: Some children may be able to handle more mature content.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
1852media: Some children might not be able to handle more mature content.
Veronica Adams: Sure. Yeah.
1852media: Oftentimes the ones that are not able to handle more mature content aren't also actively seeking it out.
Veronica Adams: True.
1852media: So let's be honest there. um You know, I was a very voracious reader.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: I always read above my age level. I always, I was reading in the crib when my brother was napping. Like my mom likes to tell this story.
Veronica Adams: What a sweet story.
1852media: It's just, I never napped as a toddler and whatnot. Apparently I didn't need it, but my brother needed it. And so my mom would put us both down and she would just put some books in with me and I would sit there and read while my brother slept.
1852media: And that has been indicative of our lives. um But I will just say, I don't know.
Veronica Adams: The ultimate foreshadowing.
1852media: Yeah, all of you are more shadowy. But truly, so, you know, kids are different. Kids are different. And let me tell you, my brother, was not actively seeking out books that were above his age range.
Veronica Adams: Right. Right.
1852media: It just wasn't something that interested him. So, you know, you're you're dealing with different kids with different levels here.
Veronica Adams: Sure. Sure.
1852media: And who should be deciding that, right? The government just putting a blanket statement over any book, or maybe the people who are actually actively involved in that child's life can determine that, that their guardians, perhaps.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Veronica Adams: Right. Well, and and does does a public school board ah have the authority to restrict the content that's available to all students based on viewpoint discrimination or content discrimination?
1852media: Right.
Veronica Adams: um Probably not viewpoint maybe content. I don't know. I mean they're they're litigating it right we'll find out what what the judges in the Northern District of Florida have to say and maybe eventually the 11th Circuit and maybe after that SCOTUS but like um Yeah, I mean, do you as a parent have to say have the right to say, take that book out of the school completely, I don't want my child or anybody else's child, regardless of their level of maturity, or their parents' rights to allow them to have access to things that they consent to their children accessing?
1852media: Right.
1852media: Mm -hmm.
Veronica Adams: um you know You making those decisions for other people, for your friends and neighbors?
1852media: Yeah, are we doing that? Well, the other.
Veronica Adams: I mean, yeah, they they are doing that all over Florida.
1852media: are going Right.
Veronica Adams: That's the whole point.
1852media: Well, the way that the board interpreted the bill, the The plaintiff also argues that it and that they did so in an unnecessarily burdensome way, that the way that they interpreted the bill was that they required a preemptive review of every single book in the county public school library to determine if the book contains descriptions or depictions of sexual conduct as defined by Florida law.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yes. Right.
1852media: That is wild. That is why, I don't know if you if people remember, but you saw all books were being removed from circulation.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: That's why they did that, because of the interpretation,
Veronica Adams: Yep. Yes.
1852media: um which is just absolutely... ah but Think about this logistically. What a process. You are taking every single book. We're thousands of a books.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: Who's reading them? Who's going through? Now you have come down to a subjective interpretation because if we're just going by words alone, that's so many books, right?
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: Like, and what words that are we putting together? Is it make love? Is that inappropriate? Are we talking about only descriptive on on -page action?
Veronica Adams: Right. Right.
1852media: Do we know that, you know, so that,
Veronica Adams: ah ah Do we consider biological and medically appropriate descriptions of body parts or of the the myriad of ways the body can be used in sexual situations to also qualify for censorship and and banning here, you know?
1852media: Yes.
1852media: And is it the person's interpretation?
Veronica Adams: And I mean, of course the answer, the answer there is yes, right? Like in terms of what has actually been carried out.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: And it it ends up being I'll tell you how it ends up being it ends up being the person's interpretation. of that book, who reads the book, that person is likely, and that that's what's been happening, coming into it with a bias already, who is like missile actively seeking out to ban books.
Veronica Adams: Yep. Right.
1852media: So they're not coming into it with an objective perspective of this one's right, this one's out and whatever.
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: They're going in trying to seek to eliminate.
Veronica Adams: Yep.
1852media: So there's a level of confirmation bias that is going on.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: by the person or persons who are reading these books, and are they really reading them for the content?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: Are they just looking for words that they don't like? And that's really what the lawsuit's about, let's be honest.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: I mean, because that what has happened is that the books that are being not put back on the circulation shelves if they even do a review, are overwhelmingly books about people of color or by people of color or about the LGBT community or by people from the lg that have LGBTQ themes.
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: And that is not coincidental. That's the argument. and i don't it is It is a wild, wild, twisty road to get around saying that it is somehow coincidental.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: in my honest opinion.
Veronica Adams: It's a racist projection of cultural superiority based on a specific religious worldview.
1852media: Correct.
Veronica Adams: Period.
1852media: So this this lawsuit, it's a big one. I mean, because here's the thing. If there is a precedent set in one school district, we know from our history, other places will use it as a model.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Of course.
1852media: So they'll say, oh, look, it was done there. This is what happened.
Veronica Adams: But that's the entire point of return it to the states.
1852media: Correct. Yeah. So.
Veronica Adams: It's a 50 state lab experiment on what you can and can't do in various places and what the people in your community and in your geographic distinct location will and won't tolerate
1852media: Yeah. And so they tried in these small counties where they think they can get away with it.
Veronica Adams: I mean, Escambia is not really all that small.
1852media: and
Veronica Adams: They just, you know,
1852media: Well, you know, in ah in a smaller test case compared to, you know, ah ah doing it multiple places at once.
Veronica Adams: Sure. Yeah.
1852media: um But yeah, but this is how they do it. They try it in these one singular circumstances.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: Yeah, excuse me, it's not like that small of a county. I didn't mean to do that.
Veronica Adams: No. This is the city of Pensacola. There's a Naval Air Station there. like There's a lot of people in Escambia County.
1852media: Yeah. A lot of people.
Veronica Adams: ah It's a big public school system. It's not the biggest one in Florida, but it's probably moderate size compared to...
1852media: Mm -hmm.
Veronica Adams: But yeah, but that's...
1852media: I'm sure anything compared to up here where I, let's be honest.
Veronica Adams: Well, or or where I currently reside as well. But yeah, I mean, it's small in the from the perspective that it's a single case, right?
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: It's a single jurisdiction.
1852media: Yes, that's what I meant.
Veronica Adams: It's a single school board. Yeah, we're not consolidating multiple causes of action across the state here.
1852media: Right.
Veronica Adams: and Not that this isn't happening in other locations.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: this is just This is just the situation where the lawyers were like, yep, this is the one we're going to take on and tackle.
1852media: Correct.
Veronica Adams: This is the case. and lawyers do that on both sides.
1852media: Oh, yeah.
Veronica Adams: test Test cases exist for a reason.
1852media: Absolutely. I mean, that we could talk about some certain test cases that happened that went all the way up to the Supreme Court that were hypothetical situations that I wanted to rip my law degree off the wall and throw out the window because and set it on fire because literally we One of the first things you learn in law school is that hypothetical such circumstances don't get to the Supreme Court.
Veronica Adams: It's true.
1852media: That they throw out hypothetical circumstances because unless there's a real harm that has occurred, we're not in the business of speculating.
Veronica Adams: It's true.
Veronica Adams: Unless you are in Texas, Northern District, Western, Western District of Texas.
1852media: why
1852media: Where was that graphic design lady? I don't know.
Veronica Adams: um
Veronica Adams: you you can sometimes You can sometimes get into the federal court system without standing. Eventually a district court may tell you that you don't have standing, but yeah.
1852media: Right. But so these situations where things harm has actually occurred, that is when the facts are there, that's nice for attorneys, um when you don't have to, you know, argue on hypotheticals because
Veronica Adams: Yes.
1852media: it can actually go somewhere if you don't get the actual result that you're hoping for.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: um And in my opinion, the the correct result, but my opinion. um But yeah, we're going to watch this case. We're going to go through the arguments.
1852media: It's layered. um We wanted to talk about it today and just sort of bring up the the general facts as to what's going on and let you know that for the next, you know, couple episodes, we're going to dive into some book banning and talk about what's happening in different locations.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, for sure.
1852media: This particularly.
Veronica Adams: Give you a lay of the land on this case and then maybe also talk about a few places, a few other places in Florida and elsewhere where this has been a recurring theme for a handful of years now.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Right, because it's very concerning. um And even if, ah you know, the election doesn't change things, right, we're still going to have these, like, even if it doesn't go downward into further abyss after this election, this for presidential election, um we're still going to have these challenges on a local the level.
Veronica Adams: Of course.
1852media: The local level is still going to have these these levels of challenges. So it's important
Veronica Adams: um This is why it's so important to pay attention to local politics and to be plugged into what's going on in your community and to attend if you're if if you pay taxes or have a child in public schools in your area to attend school board meetings and to find out what's going on.
1852media: No.
Veronica Adams: and
1852media: Great.
Veronica Adams: and
Veronica Adams: I mean, if you support it, fine. you know I mean, that's your prerogative. You're entitled to your opinion if if the school board banning books is right up your alley. Why are you listening to Heather and I?
1852media: Why are you listening to us?
Veronica Adams: But also, um yeah just being involved locally and paying attention to what's happening. it
1852media: Yeah, these types of things are not going away.
Veronica Adams: there just There just isn't a way for it to trickle down from the very top. Like federal elections are great. They're exciting. You know, it's what you see on social media and the news and everything, right?
1852media: Yes.
Veronica Adams: But um and um everybody's got an opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
1852media: Now.
Veronica Adams: But beyond that, it's what's happening in your own backyard that's probably the most important to you and your family.
1852media: All politics are local.
Veronica Adams: That's right.
1852media: And so you need to pay attention to what's going on locally.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: And I guess my point being is these cases are not going away. Types of things like this, where we're going to continue to deal with this type of push and pull.
Veronica Adams: No.
1852media: There's not going to be some sort of panacea that comes all over the country and just eases everybody into being respectful and civil with one another as much as it may have happened.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Not, not unless that, that superior worldview, that superior cultural worldview dies, its it's dying breath and disappears, which is not likely to happen.
1852media: Correct.
Veronica Adams: So
1852media: Very unlikely. So we need to continue to look at these cases and see what, you know, see what to look out for. um You know, how are these cases even getting, how are these laws getting passed?
1852media: what What's the buzzwords? What are people saying? How are they convincing people, right? So we need to dive into this. It's very relevant to publishing because guess what, if they're banning their books, they might be banning your books next.
Veronica Adams: Listen, if you've got if you've got excessive or, or any adult content, and it doesn't even have to be sex just violence right or um you write about characters who are not
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: in the culturally superior group, right?
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Like if if your characters are minorities or are people of non -traditional, and I'm using your quotes here because who whose tradition are we even applying here?
1852media: All right.
Veronica Adams: Identities, right? Like, I mean, yes.
1852media: the quote unquote nuclear family, if you don't have that, you know, antiquated nuclear family vision in your books, is that going to be something that is, right.
Veronica Adams: Mm -hmm.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, it's it's a culture war, unfortunately. And it it could, if unchecked, hurt a lot of people, especially in publishing.
1852media: And it's, very Right. I mean, it's it's affected public libraries as well, not just school libraries.
Veronica Adams: Absolutely.
1852media: So that's something that we want to talk about as well, because public community libraries are being affected.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: And for accessibility to information, that is, ah ah ah the library is the heart of the community.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Veronica Adams: I know.
Veronica Adams: And you know, there there is a there is a backlash to that as well. i I live in, as far as I know, the only state in the union now that has um legislated protections against public library content exclusions and book bans.
1852media: Oh, wow.
Veronica Adams: If um public library is found to be banning books from its collection, it is ineligible for state funding here in Illinois.
1852media: That's amazing.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, yep, it was a recent development.
1852media: I didn't know that.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: But um yeah, so it's not bleak everywhere, but you know, you get it you gotta know what's happening.
1852media: It's not.
1852media: Well, and I think especially in states that are, quote unquote, considered safe, right? Like, I live in Vermont. People consider Vermont a, quote unquote, safe state.
Veronica Adams: for For books or just for like,
1852media: and heart for for
Veronica Adams: intellectual ideas and values.
1852media: Oh, it's a state, you know, we were one of the first if not the first state to put the constitutional amendment in for a reproductive rights in our state constitution.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: ah You know, we've been considered we have a lot of laws on the books that protect those, you know, transgender members of our community and um other groups that are oftentimes marginalized.
Veronica Adams: marginalized. Yeah.
1852media: Yeah. So, we as a state are are very tolerant and very you know open to civil discourse. This is the place that I'm telling you I have never had such civil civil discourse in my entire life up here.
1852media: People are extremely respectful of one another even when they don't agree with each other. It is it is a wild, weird,
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: when you come from a different place where that did not happen, it is jarring.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: But also, we need to remember, even in places that are like that, it may not always stay like that, right?
Veronica Adams: Right.
1852media: And so you have to safeguard to ensure that your communities are like that. You can't just get complacent and say, oh, well, it's not like that here, so it's fine.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: You know, it could be like that here in 10 years.
Veronica Adams: Well, all all it has to do is come to your doorstep, and then it's close enough that it's a possibility.
1852media: Right.
Veronica Adams: You can say, that'll never happen here, we're not like that. But the whole point of what's happening behind the scenes with all of this is to literally spread it as far and wide as possible on the local level to ensure that the local policies, procedures, and practices identify more with one specific agenda that will absolutely restrict what you have access to in your public libraries.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: So we are trying to bring awareness to this and talk about this case because it is an interesting case. And um the amended complaint that was just filed in 14 days ago, as I said, and the specific reason it was being amended is because of the delay in action by the board to review those books.
1852media: So as we were talking about the review process.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: And the argument is essentially that there has just been no movement there, and it's ah it's um a stonewalling on purpose.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Well, the the the new statute in the state of Florida combined with the discovery process that brought to light the fact that there the book review was not taking place at all has led to the need for the complaint to be amended.
1852media: It's an intentional stonewalling.
Veronica Adams: So that's the whole shebang there procedurally.
1852media: Correct.
1852media: Yeah, so we'll get into it a little bit more.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: you know It's a little convoluted, right? So we don't want to get too much in the weeds of the convolution, but I think it's important to know what's going on.
1852media: What are they fighting about? Just like in some of these other lawsuits that we've talked about where the issue, the reason that the lawsuit was filed is not really what they're fighting about in the lawsuit.
Veronica Adams: hey Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
1852media: It's always funny how that happens, right?
Veronica Adams: yeah
1852media: um But it's important to know how these things are going through the courts as well.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, yeah, we're not here to teach a CLE on First Amendment law, but we are definitely here to rep your right to read or write what you want to read or write.
1852media: We will get you to that.
1852media: Exactly.
Veronica Adams: It's fundamental.
1852media: Absolutely. So until next time, come back and we will get into it. Go read a book. Go read a band book.
Veronica Adams: Read a banned book.
1852media: Read a banned book and support literacy in your community.
Veronica Adams: Yes, absolutely.
1852media: So I'll talk soon.
