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S3 Ep3: An Interview with PEN America
31 Plays2 months ago
Heather and Veronica discuss book banning and censorship with Sabrina Baêta, a senior program manager with Freedom to Read at PEN America. They have a lively discussion about book bans, why they occur, what you can do about them and specific examples of how you can combat them in your community. Listen to find out more about the current state of book banning and censorship in America.
A podcast from 1852 Media.
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose of the Podcast
00:00:00
Heather Roberts
Hi, I'm Heather Roberts.
00:00:02
Veronica Adams
And I'm Veronica Adams. 1852 Media.
00:00:06
Heather Roberts
And this is for book's sake.
00:00:17
Heather Roberts
All right, everyone, welcome
Understanding Book Bans: Impact and Advocacy
00:00:19
Heather Roberts
back. And you will see we have an amazing guest with us here today. Her name is Sabrina Beata. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
00:00:28
Sabrina Baêta
That's close enough.
00:00:28
Heather Roberts
Close enough. ah s Sabrina is here she from Penn America. She's a senior program manager and with the freedom to read at Penn America. She engages in research and awareness building around censorship attacks on public hate,
00:00:44
Heather Roberts
through 12 education, especially as it relates to literature, accessibility in libraries and classrooms. We are so excited to have Sabrina here with us today, and we are going to be talking about censorship and book bans, specifically in K through 12 schools, um but also how it affects us as Americans just generally.
00:01:05
Heather Roberts
um Because even though the a lot of the book bans is happening in schools and in in classrooms, These do have effects on us, even if you do not have a child in school or you are not actively in school.
00:01:19
Heather Roberts
So welcome, Sabrina.
00:01:21
Veronica Adams
Yes, welcome.
00:01:21
Heather Roberts
is there any Is there anything you'd like to add to your resume that I didn't cover? Yeah.
00:01:27
Sabrina Baêta
No, definitely the resume is long enough, but I do love this general approach to looking at book bans because um it really is, you know, a lot of what we look at our school book bans, but libraries are under attack, educational spheres, even public education as a concept is under attack.
00:01:44
Sabrina Baêta
So this absolutely affects all of us.
00:01:45
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:01:47
Sabrina Baêta
um And I think it affects our identities as Americans, you know, as free ah free expression,
00:01:51
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:01:53
Sabrina Baêta
country. um So ah happy to be able to take that general lens.
00:01:58
Heather Roberts
Awesome. Well, first let's tell us a little bit about pen America. What is the mission of pen America?
Censorship in Public Education: A Growing Concern
00:02:05
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, so, PEN America stands at the intersection of human rights and literature. and um So, we were started over a hundred years ago um by writers in New York who are looking to basically keep their their free expression rights, to be able to promote ah the right of people to write what they wanted to write, but also ah to read what they wanted to read and express themselves. And from that We've grown over those 100 years to have both domestic and international ah lenses towards free expression. And for us, looking at the Freedom to Read team specifically, we're a relatively new team within Penn. um I joined Penn three years ago now, and it took maybe another year for us to actually establish the team.
00:02:52
Sabrina Baêta
But it fits in so perfectly with what we have always stood for, um which is advocating for the rights of readers and writers.
00:03:00
Heather Roberts
No, that's amazing. um And how does the freedom to read team, like what do you guys do? What's your focus there?
00:03:06
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, so we look at censorship in K through 12 public education.
00:03:09
Heather Roberts
Okay. Yeah.
00:03:11
Sabrina Baêta
Colloquially, I call us the book ban team. um Probably call us the anti-book ban team because i would say we we're we're banning the books now.
00:03:19
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:03:22
Sabrina Baêta
But we are the book ban team because we are largely what we're looking at in censorship in K-12 are book bans. um And we're tracking some other trends now, but the movement really started with book banning. And we do a variety of public awareness activities campaign building to make people aware of this. We do research checking as to where the bans are happening, how they're happening, and then advocacy campaigns. Really, that looks like up left uplifting the grassroots groups that are already doing this work on the ground.
00:03:53
Heather Roberts
No, that's awesome. I mean, book bands specifically, I know Florida is a hotbed for book bands, but it's really happening across the United States. Would you say, I mean, i think I looked at your guys, I think I looked at the map of PEN America because you guys track, you guys are amazing trackers when it comes to book banning.
00:04:09
Heather Roberts
um And i what it's like Texas and Florida are the biggest states that have book band concerns right now. Is there anywhere that has surprised you that book bands have popped up?
00:04:21
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, so our latest report, Iowa and Florida ah were up there. um And really, lot of people think of this as a red state problem, um when it's not.
00:04:32
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:04:34
Sabrina Baêta
I'm actually seeing book bans across the country in blue and red districts and purple districts. um And it is now we have 43 states that have book banning activity over the last three years, which is obviously the majority of states.
00:04:49
Sabrina Baêta
And for the other ones, it's not even that they necessarily don't have some kind of censorship activity going on, but my tracking is completely based on public documentation, which means somebody has to be paying attention.
Strategies and Challenges in Addressing Book Censorship
00:05:01
Sabrina Baêta
Somebody has to be reporting that. I need to be getting that information for me to even be able to track
00:05:03
Heather Roberts
right
00:05:06
Sabrina Baêta
the book bans that are happening. And also, if we think about, and maybe we'll get into it, the books that are most targeted, those have to be available in the first place. you know like
00:05:15
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:05:16
Sabrina Baêta
Libraries had to have diversified their collections to better represent the full population of this country in the first place for those books to be banned.
00:05:23
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:05:24
Sabrina Baêta
So um there's a lot of different factors that can even you know impact the tracking of this, but it is absolutely happening all over the country. We're to
00:05:35
Heather Roberts
Well, yeah, let's talk a little bit about what Penn America considers a book ban to be, right? Because a lot of people are like, well, what is a book ban? i'm so It's still available to me. I can still go buy it in the stores. It wasn't banned. What does that mean?
00:05:48
Heather Roberts
Can you explain explain a little bit to our listeners who may not know what what you consider a book ban?
00:05:53
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, absolutely. I love this part because it's when I get to put my researcher hat on and talk about my methodology, which we worked really, really hard on because we knew it had to be really strong to stand up to some of the attacks that we're were going to get in reporting this.
00:05:58
Heather Roberts
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:08
Sabrina Baêta
So for us, we track school book bans specifically. That's in K through 12 public schools. And a book ban is defined um as creating any restricted or diminished access to a material that was previously available in a classroom or a library based on the content of that book.
00:06:27
Sabrina Baêta
So what we are saying, if you just decide to remove a book because that's your natural, you know, weeding process for a library that you're just doing that circulation or the book is returned to you in two pieces and you have to replace that book, then that, you know, that that's not a ban. you're You're replacing that material oftentimes with the same material.
00:06:47
Sabrina Baêta
But when there's a content, when the content of the material is the reason why you're removing it, um that is a ban.
00:06:53
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:06:54
Sabrina Baêta
And why we do restricted or diminished access um is because we believe any kind of censorship, any kind of obstacle that you're putting up to the material is creating a ban to what how it was previously accessible.
00:07:08
Sabrina Baêta
so If a book was never in a library, that does not count as a ban. I don't even know how you would start to track that. um But if a book was previously available, on let's say Toni Morrison's Bluest Eye, and now it has been removed completely from you know a high school, that means that those high schoolers no longer have access.
00:07:15
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:07:27
Sabrina Baêta
It is banned to them in that capacity. You can say, well, what if it was you know only... 18 plus that could now read it. Well, it's still banned to those who are under 18.
00:07:38
Sabrina Baêta
So that to me, we have different levels of bans that we show the severity of the ban because we do want to highlight that.
00:07:39
Heather Roberts
yeah.
00:07:46
Sabrina Baêta
um But it's still counted as a ban. And then one of the biggest questions is ban pending investigation.
00:07:52
Heather Roberts
who
00:07:53
Sabrina Baêta
And that's one of our statuses. Basically, that means, okay, we've received a challenge for this book, I'm going to remove it while it is under review to see if we're going to keep the book or not keep the book that is, you know, some people may say that's not a ban, I'm just removing it to review it.
00:08:08
Sabrina Baêta
Well, during the time when the book is removed, it is a ban. And also we've seen this used as soft kind of like silent under the table censorship.
00:08:18
Sabrina Baêta
It's like, oh, okay, we've got these removals. um We're just going to remove these 10 picture books and then it takes a year to review them. Does it take a year to review, you know, 10 picture books?
00:08:26
Heather Roberts
Right. Yeah.
00:08:29
Sabrina Baêta
we've seen that over and over again. And that really led us to clue into the trends of censorship and the different ways you can censor a book, but try. The book banners don't like the ban label. They really, they know it's not popular.
00:08:39
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:08:40
Sabrina Baêta
They know it looks bad. So they will try to do anything to not call it a ban. But it's like by all credences, by all, by the application of it, this is now a ban.
00:08:52
Heather Roberts
Yeah, you still can't read it. i mean, Veronica and I were talking about the lawsuits in Florida, specifically Ron DeSantis' laws and the the challenges. I believe PEN America is part of that lawsuit.
00:09:03
Sabrina Baêta
Thank you.
00:09:03
Heather Roberts
And um that was one of the biggest things, the soft ban, if you will, the pending the pending ban, um because the the argument there is really over the process of how they are reviewing books.
00:09:07
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:16
Heather Roberts
And the fact is that they're taking these books off the shelves without any real type of challenge. It's just... one parent who says, i don't like it. And so they take it off the book for everybody, or I'm sorry, take it off the shelf for everybody.
00:09:27
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:09:29
Heather Roberts
And then it's in this limbo for an unknown period of time, because there's no real process.
00:09:33
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:09:35
Heather Roberts
It's not like experts are reviewing these titles, librarians aren't reviewing them. There's, they they've not indicated any type of actual process to get the book put back on the shelves.
00:09:45
Veronica Adams
Yeah, the the the claim is it's just a it's a constructive ban without any sort of review process whatsoever, because the process allows those books to just sort of hang out in book purgatory while no one looks at them or evaluates them.
00:09:46
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:10:01
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:10:02
Sabrina Baêta
No.
00:10:02
Heather Roberts
And then the question also is, you know, as I was talking about before, who is
Parental Rights and Community Influence in Book Bans
00:10:06
Heather Roberts
looking at them? who
00:10:07
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:10:07
Heather Roberts
they They have no real committee of experts who are looking at these books to decide, or even lawyers, you know, like, are they obscene? is there Do they pass the legal tests to be put back on the the the shelves? Do they have um So any type of intrinsic art artistic or social value, you know, with those tests that are available through the Supreme Court currently, um we say currently,
00:10:38
Heather Roberts
um
00:10:38
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, and I think you bring up a great point with that that I really like to highlight because I'm looking specifically at school libraries. These are not, and no library can anyone just put a book on a shelf and be like, I have decided this book is now publicly available.
00:10:53
Sabrina Baêta
Public libraries don't work like that. So, but school libraries especially don't work like that.
00:10:55
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:10:59
Sabrina Baêta
They have expert librarians who oftentimes have master's degrees in this. And if you're getting a master's degree the degree in library science,
00:11:04
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:11:07
Sabrina Baêta
you're not doing it for the fame and the fortune. Like...
00:11:09
Heather Roberts
You're not.
00:11:10
Sabrina Baêta
You're doing it because and if you're going to a school for that, like you are doing it because you inherently love literature and love being able to provide that to students and being able to cultivate that kind of collection for their educational and emotional needs. Like that is why you are doing it. So those are the people who are selecting the materials. Well, those used to be the people who were selecting the materials to go into schools. So it's not, you know, none of these books fit the legal definition of obscenity.
00:11:39
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:11:40
Sabrina Baêta
um and And they, the decision making power is being pulled away from the librarians who are trained for this, who are also trained to be impartial, to be able to select the materials that we're going to have educational and emotional value to their students and be able to help them through this process of growing up, right?
00:11:50
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:11:59
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:11:59
Sabrina Baêta
And now we're putting that in the hands of, you know, one community member or parent who has ideological differences with a title. Like, you can see how that and becomes a huge problem.
00:12:10
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:12:13
Sabrina Baêta
Also, there's always been a challenge process. You could always challenge materials that were available in your library.
00:12:16
Heather Roberts
Correct.
00:12:18
Sabrina Baêta
Or if you didn't want ah your student to read something in curriculum, you could always ask for alternate assignments. But That discussion, that discourse that used to exist um between community member and parent and then the teacher and the librarian is being completely skipped over for these like big displays of, you know, obscene materials and indoctrination and all these kind of buzzwords that are really just covering up the fact that these attacks are meant to dismantle the system.
00:12:49
Sabrina Baêta
It's not just one challenge to a book. It's a hundred. It's um the policies aren't standing up because the policies weren't written for this kind of bad faith attack to be happening in freaking school libraries of all places.
00:12:52
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:12:59
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:13:01
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:13:02
Sabrina Baêta
Like the little librarian is who you're going after, but I think it's purposeful. They're going after the vulnerable in that moment and the people who had best intentions and weren't ready for an attack.
00:13:08
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:13:12
Heather Roberts
Right. And I think you make a good point. It doesn't have to be a parent who's challenging this book. doesn't have to have you know It can just be a community member who's decided that they don't like the book. They don't have to have a child in the school system.
00:13:24
Heather Roberts
So the the other side likes to talk a lot about parental rights here. And you know I'm all um a parent. Veronica's parent. I mean, we're all we all... all about parental rights.
00:13:35
Heather Roberts
But at the same time, we recognize other people also have their own parental rights. And that's the issue that's being trampled upon. um And as a community library, in so much that it's in the school, in the community, not obviously the community public library, ah you know one community member who doesn't have any sort of stake in it raising a stink about a book they haven't even read is a big problem to me um and restricting access for everyone else in that school.
00:14:08
Heather Roberts
So I appreciate you guys doing the hard work here because it's so nuanced, you know?
00:14:15
Sabrina Baêta
It is, and thank you for raising that because for parental rights, whose parental rights? Whose parental rights are we talking about?
00:14:20
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:14:23
Sabrina Baêta
There's also when people have have given the option to opt their students out of the library, in or out, the vast majority in the 90 somethings percent keep it.
00:14:34
Sabrina Baêta
Like this is not, this is a fabricated moral panic um over a problem that never actually existed um because a lot of these books too have been on shelves for years.
00:14:35
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:14:47
Sabrina Baêta
And like suddenly we're noticing that Toni Morrison is an author.
00:14:47
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:14:51
Sabrina Baêta
Suddenly we're noticing that there's more queer books on the shelf. Like where is this actually coming from?
00:14:57
Heather Roberts
Well, and I think that you bring up a point. So let's talk about the types of books that are being actually challenged here.
00:15:01
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yes. What, what is actually being challenged?
00:15:06
Sabrina Baêta
So time and time again, our research has shown that marginalized identities, particularly um ah people and characters of color within books, books about race and racism, books that feature lgbt and the LGBTQ plus community um and or have themes of it, are being targeted. In addition to that, we've also seen themes that we consider to be the human experience, themes that are sometimes difficult to be able to understand even as adults,
00:15:34
Sabrina Baêta
But also as students, things like death and grief, violence and abuse, but important topics that I always say these are topics that have, they wait for no one. Death and grief will not meet a child at 18.
00:15:44
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:15:47
Sabrina Baêta
And suddenly, you know, that's when you have to deal with that in your life. So having those books available to students who need them most is really important. Another one, and probably the one you've seen in headlines and you've seen, heard all the rhetoric is books with sex and sexual content.
00:16:02
Sabrina Baêta
The majority of these books that are being banned are being banned in high school, maybe some higher level middle school, mostly high school.
00:16:02
Heather Roberts
right
00:16:10
Sabrina Baêta
And the reality is those students and a lot of the parents of those students want materials that address sexual experiences, both positive sexual experiences, stories about consent, about self-empowerment, but then also the different violent aspects of it.
00:16:25
Sabrina Baêta
what sexual assault looks like and what sexual violence looks like so that you have the tools to be equipped to know going forward when this is likely in our society, sexual experiences are a part of the culture.
00:16:29
Heather Roberts
right
00:16:36
Sabrina Baêta
They just are. So allowing students to have an introduction to them through a book, I don't know about you, much softer introduction to any kind of topic than anything happening in real life, you know?
00:16:38
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:16:45
Heather Roberts
Much softer.
00:16:50
Sabrina Baêta
And that's one of the things, it's almost this idea that you know, it's indoctrination or this introduction is going to corrupt our students. And I'm like, you should be the people most advocating for the book introduction of this concept, you know, like, and and these are also, again, materials that were selected by librarians.
00:17:02
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:17:09
Sabrina Baêta
So this is not where most teenagers go to for sex advice, which is the internet. Um,
00:17:14
Heather Roberts
right
00:17:14
Sabrina Baêta
And I think it's a wonderful opportunity to actually invite discussion with students on these topics. You know, it's not that parents are not being shut out of the conversation by having those books available in the library. They're actually being invited in by having those materials there.
00:17:33
Sabrina Baêta
um But it does require that, you know, connection to actually happen. So one of the things I also say that I just want to plug. The point of education is critical thinking.
00:17:43
Sabrina Baêta
It's to agree and to disagree.
Combating Book Bans Locally: Strategies and Advice
00:17:45
Sabrina Baêta
It's to be exposed to a bunch of different ideas and to be able to form learn how to form your own thoughts on that because that is a learning process. So if you are somebody with an ideology that you are worried about, you know, what your student is being exposed to, that's a great opportunity for you to have that discussion, to also be able to voice why you agree or disagree.
00:17:53
Heather Roberts
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:06
Sabrina Baêta
And I say that for certain life topics. I don't say that as an excuse to impose racist or homophobic ideals. I'm sorry, gonna draw the line there. you don't have the right to decide to rewrite history and you don't have the right to decide to erase the queer community from books.
00:18:17
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:18:24
Sabrina Baêta
so That is where I'm like, all right, you know, that is what's real in society. um And because they're being, ah you know, students are being exposed to what their peers, you know, are facing and what their peers' experiences are, they as students have a right to have that information.
00:18:44
Heather Roberts
Yeah, I totally agree. And i that's exactly why books are so important, especially in school libraries, allowing kids of all ages, but especially in high school, to be able to explore different topics and do it in a safe way.
00:19:01
Heather Roberts
I mean, that's That is where so many introductions to different topics happen um for students. And listen, they're going to find things on the internet, as you brought up.
00:19:13
Heather Roberts
The internet is in their pockets. I mean, it is it's just wild to me that you're hitting the books.
00:19:16
Sabrina Baêta
Thank you.
00:19:20
Heather Roberts
I mean, they're also going after the internet now in different ways. But, you know, the internet is available. It is... prevalent. if If a child wants something, all they have to do is open up their phone and ask for it.
00:19:32
Heather Roberts
So the fact that we're going into these books that all, you know, especially like Toni Morrison and and things, actual works of literature, i don't think that's the issue.
00:19:32
Veronica Adams
Thank
00:19:43
Heather Roberts
Okay. I really don't feel like that's the problem because a person who's reading that is likely doing it for some type of introspection or enjoyment of reading or just trying to learn about a different topic um in a in a way that is, I think, more beneficial than just typing through Google.
00:20:06
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:06
Heather Roberts
But that's just me.
00:20:08
Veronica Adams
Thank you.
00:20:08
Heather Roberts
um That's my two cents. um Okay. So let's go to the next question. um what can...
00:20:19
Heather Roberts
people do to combat this in their communities.
00:20:23
Sabrina Baêta
I also love this question, mostly because when I started doing this research three years ago, the number one question I would get is, are book bans happening?
Censorship and Its Impact on Public Education
00:20:33
Sabrina Baêta
um It was, it took a while to even convince, especially I think an American audience,
00:20:38
Sabrina Baêta
that book bans were real and they were happening in our country. um And then once we, you know, once a lot of people started speaking up, started sharing their experiences, a lot of research started coming out, then the question I got is, what can I do to help?
00:20:51
Sabrina Baêta
And I'm like, that to me is like the basis of humanity is our next question is always okay. What can I, there's a problem, I want to help. um And for me, like, you know, a lot of different causes go local. um It can be very overwhelming to look at the scope of the entire movement and be like, how do I stop this on a national level?
00:21:11
Sabrina Baêta
um But there's so much you can be doing at your local um level um and community. Cluing into what's happening in your backyard um is the first step, you know, figure out what's happening. if you have a connection to schools, figure out what's happening in your school board meetings.
00:21:26
Sabrina Baêta
figure Public libraries are also being attacked right now. Figure out what's happening in your public library meetings. They have boards and elected members as well. Figure out who you're voting in. talk to your librarians. um And I always say you can find your brand of advocacy.
00:21:41
Sabrina Baêta
Writing out a speech and going to a school board may terrify you. you may If public speaking is not your thing, don't make public speaking your brand of advocacy. But maybe you are really good at baking cookies.
00:21:53
Sabrina Baêta
And like you are going to go to the local library and you're going to give your librarians cookies and say, I know it's a hard time right now, but I support you. Also, by the way, that pride display you've got going on, love that. Let's keep that up.
00:22:07
Sabrina Baêta
um One of the things I say is you can be really proactive with this because the flood of complaints often come all at once because it is an organized campaign. It's like suddenly they'll get five complaints on the same book.
00:22:19
Sabrina Baêta
um
00:22:19
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:22:20
Sabrina Baêta
Again, usually from ah host of different people who may not even be connected to the community. So you want to be proactive in saying, you know, if you just checked out a great book that you think have topics that may cause it to be banned, when you turn it back make sure you have some kind of official record, an email, a written note that says, wow, I'm so glad you made this book available.
00:22:40
Sabrina Baêta
Because when those five complaints come in, if there's seven that say, thank you so much for having this book, that's huge for a librarian. That's huge for a library.
00:22:48
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:22:49
Sabrina Baêta
You can do that for full displays. Like I mentioned the pride display, it's Black History Month. This is your time to say, okay, if there isn't a display in your library, ask for one.
00:22:54
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:22:59
Sabrina Baêta
They can put that on record too. um And oftentimes, you know librarians, these are all public servants. you know They are trying to serve the public and what the public is asking for. And sometimes we forget we need to ask for these things if we think it might just be inherent.
00:23:13
Sabrina Baêta
But we're living in a time where it's not like we have to be asking, we have to be vocal about what we want our communities to reflect. um So I would say find your brand of advocacy and start at the local level with your own community. Of course, you can also see what different organizations both, you know, there's always going to be some kind of parent or state level right to read.
00:23:33
Sabrina Baêta
reading is a right we we don't get we we get creative and don't get but we like write and read as words so google that in your state and you're likely to find some kind of group that you can get involved with um and if you don't know where to go past that ah you can always reach out to organizations like pen america at the national coalition against censorship american library association every library that are doing this work and that are always looking for support and oftentimes on their websites have some first steps of what you can do.
00:24:04
Heather Roberts
That's amazing. um i definitely, I'm thinking about my own library. i mean, we're here in Vermont and Vermont is generally one of the less I don't know.
00:24:16
Heather Roberts
We're pretty, yeah, restrictive.
00:24:16
Veronica Adams
restrictive.
00:24:17
Heather Roberts
we're We're a pretty safe state when it comes to challenges and and book bands and the thing and the like. But I also haven't been to my local library recently. So it would be a really good idea to go over there and just let them know, hey, I see you and you're doing a good job and we appreciate you.
00:24:35
Heather Roberts
because they probably don't get that very frequently. i mean, you, you think about restaurants, right? Then that it's the same sort of thing. They're only getting the bad reviews. They're hearing the bad news, not always the good news.
00:24:46
Heather Roberts
So you, we have to, as a society be better about asking for positive things and reminding people that they're doing good work when they, when they are doing so, especially in a public servant role for sure.
00:24:59
Sabrina Baêta
no absolutely
00:25:02
Heather Roberts
Um, Let's see what, how, oh, I think this is great. We talked about this a little bit, but how does censorship affect our education system and then the community as a whole?
00:25:13
Sabrina Baêta
ah Love this question too. um Education. i mean, okay, and I'm speaking as somebody who was an educator, who received a lot of education, who sought a lot of education, who's privileged enough to have it um But education is the foundation of a democratic society.
00:25:31
Sabrina Baêta
Like our democracy is built on the fact that we are not at times always successfully, but trying to offer equal education. to everyone. um And public education is under attack.
00:25:45
Sabrina Baêta
um Both, yes, book bans are almost a really kind of clear-cut example. I think that's why people grabbed onto to it um of what an attack on public ed looks like. But there are murkier examples. There are policies under attack. There's funding under attack that It's coded in a bunch of big words and you don't fully understand the connection between cutting this source of funding and how it's going to negatively impact public education.
00:26:05
Heather Roberts
Mm-hmm.
00:26:10
Sabrina Baêta
um But it is paramount to uphold those values and as a society. um to continue to support public education. We can have frustrations with it.
00:26:21
Sabrina Baêta
um We can say we can do this better. We can you know we can serve more of our students, um but the idea, we still have to fight for the idea of public education. And that's something that I think we're almost taking for granted that we're saying, okay, you know this is the United States. We're always going to have that. Well, it was also, this is the United States. We're always going to have free expression and not have book bans and not look like a 1940s. You know what? So,
00:26:45
Sabrina Baêta
Like that's not happening. Like that is no longer actually inherent um and decided on. Like
Legal and Creative Responses to Book Censorship
00:26:53
Sabrina Baêta
there are a lot of people who are actually working really hard to strip away ah the idea of public education and the idea of opportunity for all. And they're hiding hiding it within, you know, different types of language.
00:27:04
Sabrina Baêta
Voucher systems. yeah um
00:27:05
Veronica Adams
School choice.
00:27:06
Sabrina Baêta
like If you see school choice, if you see a voucher system, do your research.
00:27:08
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:27:11
Sabrina Baêta
What does that look like? School choice for whomst? Like, because it might not be who you think, or it might be exactly who you think, and you should be paying attention to that. So, um you know, as a community, to create opportunity for all, that means we have to spread out resources.
00:27:29
Sabrina Baêta
We have to be okay with that. like That means that if you have privilege and you have resources, please consider actually spreading them out and not hoarding them.
00:27:32
Heather Roberts
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:27:39
Sabrina Baêta
we do not We have enough of society that we don't have to hoard resources and materials and knowledge. We should be spreading it out. The point of having those is to spread it out. And that is an intrinsic kind of value problem.
00:27:52
Sabrina Baêta
that I think is almost separated from this idea of like the practical like voucher school choice concerns. But I think it is who we decide to be as a community and as a society.
00:28:03
Sabrina Baêta
And I like to believe in still building the America that I view we can be that that is an inherent value of who we are as a democratic society.
00:28:14
Heather Roberts
That's really good point. um Let's see. Can you give us an update on any of the lawsuits Penn America is currently engaged in
00:28:23
Sabrina Baêta
I cannot. I'm legally not allowed.
00:28:24
Heather Roberts
I figured I'd ask. I mean, you're here.
00:28:27
Sabrina Baêta
You
00:28:28
Veronica Adams
The standard litigation answer.
00:28:30
Sabrina Baêta
know, I appreciate the question. um um my legal team will get me in trouble.
00:28:37
Veronica Adams
Of course.
00:28:37
Sabrina Baêta
I will not speak to them, but I will speak to, will say I am glad that so many people are are using all the tools that they can to fight this.
00:28:49
Heather Roberts
We are too. And I will just say, ah that we are thrilled that pen America has decided to take up this cause and has been so involved in this because it is such a worthy cause.
00:29:02
Heather Roberts
And, you know, we can sit here, Veronica and I will talk about, you know, the lawsuits and we'll break them down and, ah read through them. But it's, it's just, it's nice to know that there are people out there fighting the good fight and and doing it on the ground.
00:29:15
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:29:17
Heather Roberts
Um,
00:29:17
Sabrina Baêta
No, and you bring up a great point. So many more people are actually fighting the book bans than fighting for them.
00:29:26
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:29:26
Sabrina Baêta
um But we're just on the the harder side. It's harder to keep what you have than to take away what somebody else has. It actually is. um So we need the continued support, but it's a vocal minority that are doing this.
00:29:34
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:29:39
Heather Roberts
Mm-hmm.
00:29:39
Sabrina Baêta
So always say like, it doesn't, we don't actually need that big a group of very vocal, also minority, like to to fight against it. Like we, but we have so many causes to turn our attention to rightfully um that they it ends up getting split.
00:29:51
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:29:55
Sabrina Baêta
So I'm really grateful when people decide free expression, decide books. um are going to be their cause because that is a choice.
00:30:00
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:30:03
Sabrina Baêta
You're choosing to put your resources there when there's a lot of worthy causes out there to do that with. So thank you. It's like even your podcast. Thank you for deciding to do this.
00:30:13
Heather Roberts
And thank you to our listeners who are deciding to listen to this as well.
00:30:16
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:30:17
Heather Roberts
I mean, I know we're on a little thank train right now, but truly, like, books are important.
00:30:21
Sabrina Baêta
you.
00:30:23
Heather Roberts
And a lot of our listeners are writers themselves. And, um you know, without organizations like PEN America, you know, you're...
00:30:34
Heather Roberts
ability to write could be taken away from you. Your ability to publish, you obviously you can always write, at least right now.
00:30:39
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:30:41
Heather Roberts
um a But your ability to publish and get your books out there and get your thoughts shared with others, you know that could be severely restricted. And that's a real challenge that we're dealing with now.
00:30:54
Heather Roberts
It's concerning.
00:30:54
Sabrina Baêta
Yes, and in a lot of ways has been with the soft censorship and the silence and in the self censorship, you know, especially a lot of writers who are trying to get their things kind of off the ground or trying to get more accolades and notice or try to get paid for their work so they can, you know, do this more sustainably.
00:31:10
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:31:13
Sabrina Baêta
They know what topics are not going to be so popular and publishable, you know, um But, and that's a really hard decision. That's a really hard line to walk of wanting your, you know, knowing that your work is going to be impactful if it's read.
00:31:27
Sabrina Baêta
And so trying to get it read.
00:31:28
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:31:28
Sabrina Baêta
But to that, I also say like, I more than ever, I see writers as the record keepers of this time. When our institutions are not going to document and catalog what's actually happening, who we are, who, you know, um ah the the complexity of our own identities and experiences, authors will.
00:31:49
Sabrina Baêta
um And authors have always, regardless of whether their works have ever seen the light of day or not, um they are the ones who have, tackle that issue for us as a society. So for me, in fighting, I fight for these stories, because I'm fighting for myself, I'm fighting for my identities, my community, but I'm fighting for the idea that we can continue on with that hope.
00:32:13
Sabrina Baêta
They can carry this hope forward. And from like that is like the little kernel that keeps us going in the face of like terrible, terrible attacks. And I truly believe that hope is so much more powerful than any bigotry, hatred, anything they can throw at us because that hope is never ending.
00:32:31
Sabrina Baêta
like It can never be extinguished.
00:32:32
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:32:32
Sabrina Baêta
They can never fully take it away from us. um But the more we can be vocal, the more we can write, the more we can put that information out there and say, I'm with you, i see you to different people, the more it empowers us to be able to stand up for each other.
00:32:49
Heather Roberts
Yeah, for sure. Veronica and I are both literary agents as well. So, you know, we see books that come in and we're we're always championing different titles ah to different publishers.
00:32:59
Heather Roberts
And that's been a real concern for me. And I'm sure, Veronica, you've had this concern as well.
00:33:04
Veronica Adams
course, yes.
00:33:05
Heather Roberts
um As we're going to pitch to different publishers, you know, queer stories for specifically, um is there going to be a curtailment um even by these by editors,
Maintaining Critical Thinking and Advocacy in Literature
00:33:17
Veronica Adams
yeah.
00:33:17
Heather Roberts
and even maybe not consciously, right, but subconsciously of wanting to pick up some of these titles simply because of the current state um and the climate that we're in, um which is ah that type of self censorship, as you were talking about.
00:33:32
Heather Roberts
And it's definitely a concern for both of us as we're going to pitch some of these titles, um reaching out to these publishers. And we do agree. You're agreeing, Veronica. Yeah.
00:33:43
Veronica Adams
Absolutely. And I think it goes beyond just ah the example you give of queer stories, but stories by and about um authors and characters of color, for example, people from any sort of marginalized communities as both social and political climate change.
00:33:53
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:34:00
Veronica Adams
um It's easy to fear and I think anticipate even that the minds of ah publishing professionals are is going to follow that current thought and, um you know, that there will be less risk taken on ah what would be seen, I guess, as protest pieces, right?
00:34:13
Heather Roberts
right
00:34:20
Veronica Adams
Of standing in democracy and allowing people to proudly express any sort of, um in this particular case, countercultural stance about the right of people to exist or the facts of history or self-identity and all of the tough topics that, you know, they continue to attack in schools and in some places, public libraries too.
00:34:44
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:34:45
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, and ah I'll just add, I've seen that too. I've seen that in canceled author visits. I've seen that, you know, in materials that were never bought.
00:34:51
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:34:53
Sabrina Baêta
I've had a lot of authors say, you know, my previous book was widely circulated in school libraries, and now this one refuses to to be picked up.
00:34:58
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:35:00
Sabrina Baêta
So, And I think it's really, really difficult, but part of this campaign is to create a tabooness around these topics that stories where, you know, about characters of color, even just like maybe it's about race and racism, but maybe they're just on the cover.
00:35:04
Heather Roberts
Mm hmm.
00:35:17
Sabrina Baêta
Like it's a queer story. A pride flag is now it is creating this aspect even subconsciously for us that it's taboo. And I think we have to form an inoculation against that, that we have to say like, that we really have to be critical about thinking about this as like, there's nothing, there's nothing with this story.
00:35:25
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:35:25
Veronica Adams
right
00:35:35
Sabrina Baêta
There's nothing wrong. Even if you know you're going to bring it up and somebody is going to shoot it down, You need to keep your own like, and that it's hard for me because like I, part of my job is to be able to anticipate what's going to get banned, anticipate things that are happening.
00:35:47
Heather Roberts
right
00:35:49
Sabrina Baêta
But I can't ever actually let it get internalized within me that because just because other people have an issue with this does not mean I have to adhere to any of that taboo-ness.
00:35:53
Heather Roberts
Mm-hmm.
00:36:01
Sabrina Baêta
I'm going to get a no every single time.
00:36:02
Veronica Adams
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:36:03
Sabrina Baêta
I'm going to keep bringing it up, but I don't have to be the one to self-censor. I don't have to be, if there's nothing wrong with this material,
00:36:07
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:36:10
Sabrina Baêta
If there, you know, if I see value in it, if I, even if there's, um I may be uncomfortable with it, but it is bringing truth, then it is my job to be able to stay open to that.
00:36:18
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:36:22
Sabrina Baêta
um But I think it is difficult. It's almost like ah what a lot of Americans are facing in their dinner table conversations of like, I don't want to bring up this topic. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but this friend, this parent, this whatever might bring it up, be naive, like use that, like,
00:36:30
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:36:39
Sabrina Baêta
you Use that to your advantage of being like, what do you, what do you mean? Like, you know, trans athletes should be banned from sports. That's, that's a woman like that. but shouldn't like outline your, your problems for me.
00:36:49
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:36:52
Sabrina Baêta
And I'm going to tell you why only what nine athletes in the NCAA are affected by this. Like, you know, like, get your facts ready.
00:36:58
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:36:59
Sabrina Baêta
Cause you're going to need them. But I think creating that kind of inoculation to it have in not letting it become a taboo subject is so important.
00:37:07
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:08
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:37:10
Veronica Adams
Continuing to fight the culture war, so to speak, and being willing to have a voice for what you believe is right.
00:37:10
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:37:11
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:15
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:37:16
Sabrina Baêta
Exactly.
00:37:16
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:37:16
Sabrina Baêta
You don't even have to be like, you can, I would just, I always try to do like assumed that everybody's at my level and be like confused why they're not.
00:37:24
Veronica Adams
Right. Yes.
00:37:25
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:37:27
Sabrina Baêta
Cause I'm like, this doesn't even have to be like, I'm like, it's not political.
00:37:27
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:37:27
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:37:31
Sabrina Baêta
Tell me how this is, you know, trans lives are not political.
00:37:34
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:37:35
Sabrina Baêta
They just deserve rights because they're humans going through a human experience. That is, that is it. Like we don't have to argue particulars.
00:37:40
Heather Roberts
and
00:37:42
Sabrina Baêta
We don't have to get nuanced. We don't have to, you know, I don't have to use their rhetoric against them. Like, It can be that simple.
00:37:49
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:37:50
Heather Roberts
Yeah. No, I totally agree. All right. Well, we got it. We have to wrap up, sadly. But I'm going to end on this question because I'm dying to know what is your favorite band book?
00:38:03
Sabrina Baêta
That is a really great question. um but So I am a fan. I'm queer and Brazilian. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of Brazilian lit out there that's not like by Brazilian authors, obviously, which is not getting banned because it's in Portuguese.
00:38:18
Sabrina Baêta
But uh which is not you know widely featured uh but casey mcquiston uh leaning into the queerness i love a romance book um when i was yes when i was in my straight phase as i call it which was before my awareness um i read so many romance books um by the way no amount of straight romances made me straight so no amount of queer romances are gonna make anyone queer i can
00:38:27
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:38:28
Heather Roberts
So do we.
00:38:41
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:38:45
Heather Roberts
You are so right. Yeah.
00:38:47
Sabrina Baêta
So believe me, I tried. So no.
00:38:51
Heather Roberts
Veronica and I always joke, we're like, listen, we're straight, not necessarily because we want to be. Like, if have you seen the option?
00:38:58
Veronica Adams
last i
00:38:59
Heather Roberts
Like, we...
00:39:00
Veronica Adams
I literally had this conversation with my 82-year-old father this past weekend. if If I could choose to be queer in any way, shape, or form, I would.
00:39:06
Sabrina Baêta
but
00:39:10
Veronica Adams
Because ah have you seen...
00:39:11
Sabrina Baêta
Queer is a mindset. We'll invite you in. Honorary.
00:39:14
Veronica Adams
modern men, you know, like, and of course not all men, right?
00:39:15
Sabrina Baêta
yeah
00:39:15
Heather Roberts
You're right.
00:39:18
Veronica Adams
But um yeah, like its it's an interesting divide that we're in here in cishet land, I guess.
00:39:19
Heather Roberts
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:26
Veronica Adams
And um if if I could choose another path for myself, I would because I suspect it's a little bit easier and much more comfortable behind closed doors out of out of the public eye where it's just you and your your partner or your private life.
00:39:26
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:39:26
Sabrina Baêta
Yes. That's the thing.
00:39:35
Heather Roberts
Right.
00:39:38
Veronica Adams
So yeah.
00:39:38
Sabrina Baêta
Oh yeah. Given the choice, my lesbian lifestyle, which is one of the book banners, but wanted to ban a book because it promoted the lesbian lifestyle.
00:39:39
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:39:48
Sabrina Baêta
So now I just really want a hat that says lesbian lifestyle promoter.
00:39:49
Veronica Adams
Oh.
00:39:49
Heather Roberts
no
00:39:52
Veronica Adams
Absolutely.
00:39:53
Sabrina Baêta
Like if that was a job title, I wouldn't.
00:39:56
Heather Roberts
I could make that hat
00:39:57
Sabrina Baêta
yeah That's my career right there.
Supporting the Cause: How to Get Involved
00:39:59
Heather Roberts
for you.
00:39:59
Heather Roberts
Totally. Yeah.
00:40:01
Sabrina Baêta
podcast gift Yes, please.
00:40:05
Veronica Adams
absolutely
00:40:06
Heather Roberts
um But I'm sorry. So Casey McQuiston, they're your favorite.
00:40:10
Sabrina Baêta
McQuistion is, yes, one of my favorites, particularly ah ah Who Kissed ah Sarah Wheeler. I think that's the the title of the book.
00:40:20
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Okay.
00:40:21
Sabrina Baêta
I really love that one. And then I actually have the newest one right here. um You can't see it because this is a podcast, but the pairing, by and which I think is going to be a lot of kind of, ah there's got some non-binary representation, which I am she, they pronouns.
00:40:27
Heather Roberts
But, ah, yes.
00:40:38
Sabrina Baêta
I really appreciate that. And I think it's going to be a lot of kind of like queer fun mix up like ah within it.
00:40:41
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:40:45
Heather Roberts
going to be awesome.
00:40:47
Sabrina Baêta
So um not banned yet. I'm not sure it's ever going to make it onto school shelves, um but I am in the midst of the pairing.
00:40:55
Heather Roberts
Awesome.
00:40:55
Veronica Adams
It's still so important that it's being published and championed though.
00:40:57
Sabrina Baêta
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:40:58
Heather Roberts
Yes.
00:40:58
Sabrina Baêta
oh yeah
00:40:59
Heather Roberts
Yes. We love Casey McQuiston and and um ah Veronica, do you have a favorite band book?
00:41:05
Veronica Adams
Oh God. I, okay. So, um, the way back, the importance this may be actually a cautionary tale for the other side. Uh, I found Margaret Atwood at the tender age of 14 or 15.
00:41:18
Veronica Adams
And so the handmaid's tale has been with me for two thirds of my life and,
00:41:22
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:41:24
Veronica Adams
has been and will always probably be my favorite band book.
00:41:27
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:41:28
Sabrina Baêta
I don't know.
00:41:29
Heather Roberts
I tend to also go for classics. I mean, Handmaid's Tale is definitely up there.
00:41:34
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:41:34
Heather Roberts
Catcher in the Rye. i love for some reason. i don't know why Holden, I love Holden. I know a lot of people don't, but we could.
00:41:43
Veronica Adams
you're angsty We're angsty and our teenagers like just, oh, give me all the whole bit, yeah.
00:41:46
Heather Roberts
Yes. Perks of being, perks of being a wallflower. Also a classic that really resonated with me in my teenage years. yeah, I feel like should be available for other teenagers to resonate with. And I hear is also being at the cusp bands um and really any Jodi Pico book.
00:42:10
Sabrina Baêta
Yeah.
00:42:10
Heather Roberts
So, you know, Jodi, but.
00:42:10
Sabrina Baêta
Oh, yeah.
00:42:10
Veronica Adams
Oh, Jodi.
00:42:13
Heather Roberts
who I love has been very, very actively outspoken about book bans specifically and her books, all books being banned.
00:42:24
Heather Roberts
And just the fact that she's taken this platform and her platform and really has been elevating that. ah I just can't say enough good things about her um for, for doing so ah really applaud that effort.
00:42:31
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:42:34
Sabrina Baêta
so yeah
00:42:36
Veronica Adams
More authors with her level of privilege to speak out and advocate for others in their community and for their readers too.
00:42:39
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:42:41
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:42:42
Sabrina Baêta
Jodi is a real one.
00:42:42
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:42:43
Sabrina Baêta
We get to do a lot with her at Penn, and she is she is absolutely the real deal.
00:42:44
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:42:49
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:42:49
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:42:49
Heather Roberts
um And honestly, i I hate to say it, but the reason I know how to say her name correctly is because of her outspokenness with book bands.
00:43:00
Heather Roberts
And i thank you, Jodi, for talking about it and saying your name.
00:43:03
Sabrina Baêta
yeah
00:43:05
Heather Roberts
And I think we all went through a collective, oh my God, I've been saying your name wrong forever. But so my apologies to Jodi, but here we are.
00:43:18
Heather Roberts
ah Well, thank you so much, Sabrina.
00:43:20
Veronica Adams
Yes, this is great.
00:43:20
Heather Roberts
This has been amazing. Yeah.
00:43:22
Veronica Adams
um can i Can I actually ask one light parting question?
00:43:24
Heather Roberts
ah
00:43:25
Veronica Adams
If someone wants to get involved with PEN America or support PEN America's efforts, what's the best way for them to do that?
00:43:25
Sabrina Baêta
yeah
00:43:31
Sabrina Baêta
So pen.org will get you everything you need. There's an issues area for book bands. There's an issues area for everything, free expression under the sun, essentially.
00:43:37
Veronica Adams
Awesome.
00:43:42
Sabrina Baêta
So you can get involved.
00:43:42
Veronica Adams
Great.
00:43:43
Sabrina Baêta
um There's letters you can sign. Of course, there's donations. I will plug, um there's so many local groups doing this as well. My development team is like, stop talking, please. But there's so many local groups.
00:43:55
Sabrina Baêta
Doing this as well, particularly Florida Freedom to Read Project and the Texas Freedom to Read Project um into hotbed states.
00:44:00
Veronica Adams
Super important right now. Yeah.
00:44:02
Sabrina Baêta
They also have websites and information online if you Google them um for how you can donate and how you can help. And um also look at your own state and see if there's...
00:44:15
Sabrina Baêta
ah different types of ah organizations. Usually at this point, there is a state level organization. um And look to see if you are in a state that might support um open shelves and might fight against censorship.
00:44:29
Sabrina Baêta
Check if there's any right to read legislation um and write your legislator.
00:44:33
Heather Roberts
Yeah.
00:44:34
Sabrina Baêta
Can I say that? i don't know.
00:44:35
Heather Roberts
yeah
00:44:35
Sabrina Baêta
But
00:44:35
Veronica Adams
Yeah, please.
00:44:36
Sabrina Baêta
Report right read
00:44:37
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:44:38
Sabrina Baêta
That's what I'll say. of instead ah So just be aware of what's happening in your state, but also consider, yes, consider donating to Penn or donating your time to Penn. That would be great. But please ah support those local organizations ah where that money will actually stretch even further.
00:44:55
Veronica Adams
Awesome.
00:44:55
Sabrina Baêta
ah Again, development is like, please stop talking. But I i am the absolute
00:44:59
Heather Roberts
Also donate to Penn. There you go.
00:45:00
Veronica Adams
Yes. maybe Maybe split your donation.
00:45:06
Veronica Adams
or double it for that matter, if you're in a position where you can do that.
00:45:07
Sabrina Baêta
Or no, even no. Mm-hmm.
00:45:08
Heather Roberts
i da
00:45:08
Sabrina Baêta
Mm-hmm.
00:45:09
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:45:09
Heather Roberts
there you go
00:45:10
Veronica Adams
No, thank you.
00:45:11
Heather Roberts
That's amazing.
00:45:13
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:45:13
Heather Roberts
Well, thank you so much, Sabrina. um You know, we could probably talk about this for another hour, but sadly we have to end. But truly, thank you so much for coming on. We've learned so much. We hope that the listeners have as well. And please reach out to PEN America, give them your donations. They definitely need them right now to help support the ongoing fight against censorship and book bans in America.
00:45:36
Heather Roberts
And next week, and next time, we will be back to talking about another legal issue. um And so stay updated for that. And we'll see you soon.
00:45:46
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:45:47
Heather Roberts
This has been For Book's Sake.