Transcript
Heather Roberts: Hi, I'm Heather Roberts.
Veronica Adams: And I am Veronica Adams. Together we are 1852 Yes.
Heather Roberts: Let's go.
Heather Roberts: Oh my God. Welcome back everyone. it has been a lovely break for the summer. Veronica and I took off for the summer from for book's sake in order to pursue other things, AKA hang out with our families and just really be at home and work on other projects.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Veronica Adams: yes
Veronica Adams: Yep.
Heather Roberts: Um, I launched
Veronica Adams: A couple of side quests here and there.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, yeah. But we are back now. It was absolutely lovely. And we're happy to be back. And what a time, i mean,
Veronica Adams: Well, yes, I'm happy to be back on the podcast. I'm not sure I'm happy about what we're going to discuss today.
Heather Roberts: yeah I was just going to say, what a time and to be back.
Veronica Adams: You aren't kidding.
Heather Roberts: Because, wow, what has happened this week in publishing in in our lovely little industry?
Veronica Adams: And Romancelandia specifically.
Heather Roberts: And yes, I mean, there's As if you've listened to us for any period of time, you know that there is always some type of drama within Romance Landing.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Yes. yes
Heather Roberts: But this one it's not great. It's not great at all. So we are talking about the Sinners and Stardust book signing event. I will say straight out the gate, from all accounts, the actual event itself was run fantastically.
Veronica Adams: Yes, yes.
Heather Roberts: that The organizers did an amazing job. All of the authors were really happy with, you know, the people that came out. Everything was run smoothly from that side of things, from the professional side of things.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Everything was great.
Veronica Adams: However.
Heather Roberts: The problem, yes, the problem was the readers. And I think it is about time to start talking about this a lot more openly.
Veronica Adams: Absolutely, yes.
Heather Roberts: This has been a problem in our industry for the entire decade that I have been a part of it.
Veronica Adams: from from the dawn of these romance specific or romance exclusive book signing events yes absolutely yeah
Heather Roberts: Yes. And it is, i'm I'm really glad that events are starting to put measures in place to protect the authors and the models and those professionals who are attending the event.
Heather Roberts: in a professional capacity because this has been absolutely batshit fucking crazy. It's been the wild, wild west for a decade and it's just wrong. So what happened at Sinners and Stardust is sexual assault is what happened.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And this has happened at a lot of events over the years and it's just not really been talked about openly.
Veronica Adams: Unfortunately.
Heather Roberts: But specifically with the models at the event, There were several entertainers and models walking around dressed up cosplaying as characters from some of these books.
Veronica Adams: Yes. Yes.
Heather Roberts: And certain authors brought them you know though from their books.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm. that's That's typically what happens. An author will sponsor the attendance of a cover model or someone else who, you know, has the appearance of ah a lead character or something like that.
Veronica Adams: So, yeah.
Heather Roberts: Right, right. And so they're usually, they're dressed as the character.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: And oftentimes that means they're shirtless or wearing something that is evocative.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: However, they're playing a part, they are acting.
Veronica Adams: They're playing a part. They're playing a part.
Heather Roberts: This is not them personally, they are acting.
Veronica Adams: Correct.
Heather Roberts: And unfortunately, a lot of women, I don't know, if something snaps in their brains with these readers
Veronica Adams: Well, so let's, but like, let's set the table here because Sinners and Stardust is like, it's not just a regular romance book signing.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. Yes.
Veronica Adams: And I don't mean to blame shift in any way toward the organizers of this event because it's not really about them.
Heather Roberts: no
Veronica Adams: Although there are some people who have some fair criticisms about how they handled some of these allegations and incidents. Yeah. And we can get into that in a little bit, but it's a, it's a dark romance book signing. And so we're talking about ah group of people getting together and celebrating things that are ah ah steeped dubious consent themes, non-consensual themes.
Heather Roberts: ah bill
Veronica Adams: Like these are books that are about things like rape fantasies and consent issues and
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: the readers The readers took it too far.
Heather Roberts: It puts.
Veronica Adams: They took it to heart.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: They they got carried away with themselves or they're just terrible people.
Heather Roberts: Right. And so what would happen is readers would go up to these models and one in particular that was talked about, but i'm um there was others there as well, multiple incidents um and would, you know, grope them essentially.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Yes. Multiple incidents.
Veronica Adams: Hmm.
Heather Roberts: ah one tried to, or at least one, ah tried to stick her hand down his pants.
Veronica Adams: God, can you imagine? Can you imagine having the audacity to just grope someone's genitals under their clothes upon first meeting in a public forum surrounded by a whole bunch of other people?
Heather Roberts: Right?
Heather Roberts: In a public forum.
Heather Roberts: It's unbelievable. it's It's disgusting.
Veronica Adams: And what would this community be doing to a man who did that to a woman at an event?
Heather Roberts: Well, of course. Of course. And listen, it's just, oh, it's disgusting.
Veronica Adams: It is.
Heather Roberts: And this has been happening for years. For years at book signing events.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: now Maybe not as blatant as this.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: This was extremely blatant. um one of the readers at this event put an air tag on this gentleman and essentially stalked him throughout the event and I'm assuming to find out where he was
Veronica Adams: Yes, there's some allegations that the air tag was used to identify his hotel room and to follow him back to that location.
Heather Roberts: which is just gives me the shivers
Veronica Adams: And like, I get it. You're there to like get the collective vibes and hang out with other people who like stalker books like you do, but you're not actually allowed to stalk people because you're at a dark romance book signing.
Heather Roberts: I mean, this is like you're at a, you know, you can compare this to a variety of different situations, right?
Veronica Adams: What the actual fuck?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Let's say, i mean, it's not that because I think this is very different than say a strip club, right?
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Heather Roberts: You're going to a strip club. I've been to strip clubs with, with male performers and it is, they are shaking their stuff all up in your face But at no time did was I like, I am going to grab their genitals.
Heather Roberts: Because I knew, that if you know you know, not that I would want to anyway, but you know you know that the second you would go to do something like that, your ass is going to be outside on the ground and you are going to be banned from that function because that is not appropriate.
Veronica Adams: yes
Veronica Adams: yes yes
Heather Roberts: So my point is, even at a strip club, When the expectation is very sexual, right? And the expectation is that there is going to be penis in face.
Heather Roberts: At no point are you even allowed to touch that genitalia. Oftentimes you can touch their abs. You can, you know, do other things that are.
Veronica Adams: And there are usually invitations for you to do so as part of the burlesque performance or whatever. You're usually that you get some sort of signal from the performer that it's okay to do this or you're invited to do that or...
Heather Roberts: Correct.
Heather Roberts: or they'll take your hand and put it somewhere.
Veronica Adams: Exactly, exactly.
Heather Roberts: It is part of the...
Veronica Adams: i've I've been to one you know where where audience members are invited up on stage and they're actually active participants in the show. And there is some touching happening, but it's not non-consensual and it's not this extreme.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Heather Roberts: Correct. This is a situation. And so I compare to that because I think it might be the closest that we can get um to this type of an event where and a a performer is standing there.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: He is there as the character. He wants to have that feeling. He wants to evoke that type of excitement, right? From it's the readers.
Veronica Adams: Yes, yes.
Heather Roberts: That is the point of his presentation. That is why he is there so they can see him in the flesh. And so, you know, he may take their hand and put it on his abs. Then he may take their hand or, you know, allow them to run their hands up and down his arms.
Veronica Adams: o Yeah.
Heather Roberts: He has consented to those types of physical touches, but at no time and at no point did he say, put your hands down my pants and grab my dick.
Heather Roberts: That didn't happen.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: And so when someone crosses that line, You know, like, and people are like, oh, but it was no, no, no, no. no Oh, but it no. Because that in my back my mind is, oh, well, she asked for it.
Heather Roberts: She was wearing this.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: And so this is.
Veronica Adams: you If your response to this is a yes, but then you are making excuses and justifications and you are you are literally doing that exact same thing. You are, okay, well, what was he wearing?
Veronica Adams: yeah What the character required. Because he was he was performing.
Heather Roberts: Correct.
Veronica Adams: He was literally doing his job.
Heather Roberts: He was performing. And at no point did he ask be sexually assaulted.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. That's right.
Heather Roberts: At no point whatsoever. And i don't care if he was walking around naked.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: At no point was there an invitation to be touching on his general.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: If he didn't consent to it, you are not allowed to do it.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: I don't know how these same women who in normal everyday society, when they're at Home Depot, will ask to pet someone's dog go up to a man happy the convention and grab for his dick without asking.
Veronica Adams: Right. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: What the fuck?
Heather Roberts: it It blows my mind.
Veronica Adams: Well, and this is just one of many incidents that allegedly happened at the signing.
Heather Roberts: And so...
Veronica Adams: I mean, there there are accounts that someone in attendance who was actually an event volunteer was walking around wearing a strap on under their outfit
Heather Roberts: oh yeah, yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yes, yeah. yeah
Veronica Adams: and flashing people at random and apparently had someone following them around taking photos of people's shocked reactions upon seeing the units, if you will.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: um There was something about an artist or performer in body paint who was groped so frequently and so thoroughly that most of the body paint was rubbed off by the end of the signing.
Heather Roberts: Right. Yeah. I heard about that.
Veronica Adams: It just so many like
Veronica Adams: So many people taking the atmosphere and running with it and using it as an excuse or a justification to just be absolutely disgusting and to literally sexually assault people.
Heather Roberts: Right. I mean, I'll tell you, so my husband used to you know, but for the listeners,
Veronica Adams: I do. I do, but the audience doesn't.
Heather Roberts: my my husband used to write books under the name Mikey Lee. And he stopped writing books for a variety of reasons that we won't get into. But ah one of them most certainly being is when we went to book signing events, he was very uncomfortable with a lot of the attention that he received.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: in the way in which he received it.
Veronica Adams: Yes. yes
Heather Roberts: um I mean, he had a woman at one point in time give him a crocheted. I don't even know it's what to call it. What you call it? It's a, it's for your ball and your balls and your penis.
Heather Roberts: um And it was crocheted. And she like presented it to him at his table, had him open it. And then was like, you know, is it too big? Is it too small? Like, you know,
Heather Roberts: and wanted to want a commentary on his genitalia. Yeah.
Veronica Adams: I cannot. i don't know how I don't know how we've been working together this long and I've never heard this story.
Heather Roberts: yeah
Veronica Adams: Or maybe I've heard it and I've just forgotten about it in in the years since it's happened.
Heather Roberts: yeah
Veronica Adams: Because it's been a while since he's been in in the community writing actively.
Heather Roberts: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a minute. It's been a minute. Um, yeah.
Veronica Adams: Oh my god.
Heather Roberts: I mean, they would just go up and touch him. You know, I'd be standing right there and they just go up and touch him because he was a cover model as well at the time.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: So he was doing shoots and things like that. Just super weird. I will say all of the models he worked with entirely professional, all of the photographers he worked with 1000% professional.
Veronica Adams: Sure. Sure. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: I was on many a shoots where, you know, he's in a compromised position, if you will, with the female model And at no time did I feel uncomfortable, you know, as his wife ah being there watching it because it was a performance, right?
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: And this is what you're doing.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: And he was entirely professional. They were entirely professional. It was great.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: But when you get to the readers, that's when things got weird. I mean, I remember pulling up to one book signing event. There was a reader. um we were We were just pulling up in the, you know, outside And a reader came like running up to our car door and was like, oh my God, you're here, you're here, or you're here.
Heather Roberts: Like he was just going to drop me off at the front door to go like go check in to our hotel room.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And she was like, so on top of our, she's like, where are you staying? You know, like asking all of these really invasive questions to the point where we were like, oh, well, we're just going to go and park and whatever.
Heather Roberts: We ended up parking and then going in the back door and trying to avoid her and going into
Veronica Adams: Right.
Veronica Adams: Like celebrities ducking the paparazzi.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, it was it was an out-of-body experience um because we didn't want run into her there because it made us that uncomfortable.
Veronica Adams: Unreal.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: But authors deal with this every single day. And I use my husband's experience as an example because I was present during those experiences.
Veronica Adams: Yes. Yes.
Heather Roberts: um But authors deal with these types of situations all the time.
Veronica Adams: Well, and I think any any man, to be perfectly frank, any man who is who writes romance or is a professional adjacent to the romance community,
Veronica Adams: is more likely to be sexualized in an unwanted way than any woman. And ah there there are some, there are a lot of reasons for that. We we can get into that too if you want.
Veronica Adams: But, and you know, cover models, narrators, photographers, it's not just the guys who write.
Heather Roberts: No.
Veronica Adams: um They all receive a lot of attention that I'm sure that they don't necessarily want.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. And so what I think is they're doing at these signings now, what has been proposed to be done, least at Centers and Stardust going forward, is to create a separate, a separation between the readers and the authors and entertainers.
Veronica Adams: hmm yeah.
Veronica Adams: yeah.
Heather Roberts: So like if you were to go to Comic-Con, for example, you can stand in line, you go see your person, right? You see the entertainer there, there's security. People are watching to make sure everything's copacetic and then you move on.
Veronica Adams: Yes. ah Attend, attendees have one level of access and then the talent, the talent has a completely separate.
Heather Roberts: And then authors. Yes.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Right. And then so authors and talent, you know, all the talent.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: will have their own, you know, availability, their own VIP section at, say, a ball or something like that, where they can actually go and have fun with one another and not worry about saying something or doing something that's going to be perceived by your reader as whatever, because that happens all the time, too.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Heather Roberts: You know, you can't put your guard down.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Heather Roberts: You are at a work event. essentially. i mean, that's what, not essentially, that's what you're doing. You are at work event.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: It's supposed to be a fun work event, but you're at a work event. And this will give authors and entertainers the opportunity to go and mingle with one another and a way that makes them more comfortable without having to worry about, you know, being accosted, essentially.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: I'm sorry.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: i got all worked up and...
Veronica Adams: It's all good. It's all good.
Heather Roberts: getting
Veronica Adams: Yeah. this This is, you know, to to get to the root of it all, though, this is just another example of a pervasive double standard in our community, the the romance industry specifically, i that's that's very pervasive.
Veronica Adams: There are a lot of women who feel entitled to behave in a way that they would be unwilling to accept men behaving in the same exact way.
Heather Roberts: Right. Yeah. And they my my other point, they wouldn't be ah behaving like this in any other environment.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: It's like they come into this environment and lose every brain cell that they ever had.
Veronica Adams: yeah yeah.
Heather Roberts: which really does not do much in so so support our arguments that we are constantly trying to make about the romance industry being empowering for women and all of that.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: It's just feeding into every single stereotype that, you know, conservative media, I'll throw it out there, but places upon our industry.
Veronica Adams: Sure. Yeah. and just it Right. So now there's more damaging narrative out there about how sex-crazed women are assaulting a variety of people, not just not just models, but also other event attendees.
Heather Roberts: Right. Right.
Veronica Adams: There was an author who had their boundaries violated in a bathroom, allegedly. like There were all kinds of incidents.
Heather Roberts: And this happens all the time. I mean, it's not even of a sexual nature.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: It's of a creepy, weird nature that happens all the time.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Like, for example, that girl running up to the car and, you know, crossing us in that way.
Veronica Adams: Right. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: it's It's the parasocial relationship that that bleeds over to people thinking that you're actually friends when, you
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: you're not, ah you're just not. And, um, you know, I think about Rebecca Yaros having to move.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: She literally had to move because readers found out her location and started sending her, i don't care if they were nice things, but sending things to her house.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: That's weird. Don't do that. What are you doing?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: like, Oh, I know this author. I want to be best friends with her. So I'm going to stalk her Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Also, when when you become public facing in any way, ah there is an inherent risk that you are going to attract a few crazies, right?
Veronica Adams: Like that means there are some people out there who are ah mentally ill, unstable. They don't understand boundaries. They are awkward. They, what whatever, you know, and they will take things too far.
Heather Roberts: yeah
Veronica Adams: They will do things and pay attention that is unwanted in in a variety of different ways, not just sexually assaulting people or, you know, being generally gross. Yeah. So that's the risk you take, I think, by becoming an author, perhaps, or a cover model or a narrator.
Heather Roberts: Sure. I mean, figure. Yeah.
Veronica Adams: But, you know, it's also possible to really, really, really appreciate someone's body of work and not be an absolute creep about it.
Veronica Adams: i
Heather Roberts: um
Veronica Adams: The majority of people do it every day, you know?
Heather Roberts: yeah
Veronica Adams: Um, and we have got to come up with ways to hold everyone in the community accountable. And I think that's one of the other things that people are outraged about is that the response from Sinners and Stardust to some of this stuff was a little watered down and maybe not as
Heather Roberts: off the Off the bat, I only saw their later replies.
Veronica Adams: yeah, yeah, the initial response to all of this.
Heather Roberts: I didn't see like the earlier stuff that was happening.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. and There's a lot of criticism circulating in the community right now about how it was initially handled and what was allowed to continue happening. And, you know, but the first line of responses to the complaints and stuff.
Veronica Adams: But yeah, I mean, it's it's a total double standard because, listen, your husband did a brave thing by daring to write romance in the first place, because this is an industry that's not very welcoming to men unless you are allowing yourself to be sexualized for some purpose.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: I mean, that bottom line.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Heather Roberts: And no doubt it feels good at first. Right. Of course, you're getting attention.
Veronica Adams: Sure. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It's like, oh, this is amazing.
Veronica Adams: It's validating.
Heather Roberts: It's validating. This is so fun, but it can quickly turn. And then and if you do something wrong, then suddenly people are turning against you or doing whatever, me trying to whatever, you know.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: it it's it's fuzzy. It can get very fuzzy very quickly.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: and um it's not always a comfortable place to be.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, I agree.
Heather Roberts: So I think authors, you need to protect yourself. You know, of course, I'm always telling people like, put yourself out there, right? Put yourself out there.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: But in the same way, you need to have boundaries and you need to communicate those boundaries and absolutely allow access to your readers in ways that you are comfortable with.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: I think about it as you know you're you're dealing with a toddler, right? You don't give a toddler a million choices.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: You know don't let them decide what the next course of action is going to be.
Veronica Adams: Correct.
Heather Roberts: You do you want X or Y? And X or Y are both acceptable to you as the parent, but it's giving that feeling of choice to the toddler.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It's making them feel like they have the freedom there to choose whatever.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: But you don't care what they choose because X or Y are both acceptable to you.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: That is what you need to do as an author to your readers.
Veronica Adams: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. But as a collective community, what what are what are we going to do about this this hypocrisy, these double standards, the the the interwoven misandry?
Heather Roberts: You need parent them.
Heather Roberts: I wish... All
Veronica Adams: you know i mean, we men are objects to be sexualized and, I guess, taken advantage of and used for
Heather Roberts: right.
Veronica Adams: all sorts of pleasure and fantasy fulfillment and, and readers behaving badly. But if men were to do that at any reader events, the backlash would be swift and severe.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. one hundred percent And i I do feel that, you know, it's a little, I mean, I feel like it's a little different, you know, if he's consenting to a certain part of it, right?
Heather Roberts: He's consenting to a certain...
Veronica Adams: to To be visually consumed? Absolutely.
Heather Roberts: Yes. To be visually consumed and maybe me even some touching.
Veronica Adams: No question. Yeah, of course.
Heather Roberts: He is consenting to a portion of it.
Veronica Adams: The same way a stripper consents to being, you know.
Heather Roberts: But my...
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: Right. But the crossing of the line is the problem. And I wish that I could say that this is going to suddenly have some sort of magical change in hearts and minds.
Veronica Adams: No.
Heather Roberts: No.
Veronica Adams: No, this is a pervasive, long standing issue that no one has really ever pushed anyone to resolve or that.
Heather Roberts: No, it's not. But
Heather Roberts: it's not.
Veronica Adams: I don't know. ah Maybe it's endemic within the population of romance readers. You know what I mean? Maybe it's the kind of thing that just comes with the territory.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: I don't know.
Heather Roberts: But I, I do think that having some side, some type of line would be nice.
Veronica Adams: hmm.
Heather Roberts: Um, I know i do not, I'm going to say this, I I'm going, I'm going to say this, but I want to preface it with a caveat because then all my words to be twisted. Okay. I am one of those people that do not believe romance books are porn.
Heather Roberts: They are not porn. It is very different than porn.
Veronica Adams: Agree.
Veronica Adams: I hate the term smut.
Heather Roberts: Um,
Veronica Adams: I hate it.
Heather Roberts: keep The term smut, hate it, hate it, ada hate it, hate it. We are not porn. It is very different. However, if we are going to like, and again, we're not stripping, we're we're not strip strippers either.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um But we just compare it to strippers. But if we're talking about an industry that has a sexualized nature to it, right? Certainly porn does that.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: was that
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Porn has conventions. you know what porn doesn't do with those conventions? Invite their viewers.
Veronica Adams: true.
Heather Roberts: And why don't they invite their viewers? Probably because a lot of them have a problem with being able to differentiate reality from fiction.
Veronica Adams: That's right. 100%.
Heather Roberts: Because porn is fiction, guys. it is It is scripted. I hate to tell you, it is your favorite naked reality show. It's scripted. Okay. Don't care.
Heather Roberts: Even OnlyFans. It's scripted.
Veronica Adams: hundred percent
Heather Roberts: So it's wild. It is a job to these people that are doing it. Some do it exceptionally well. And good for them. But so to the same degree, they're not inviting scores and scores of viewers to come and meet them in a unregulated environment.
Veronica Adams: That's right.
Heather Roberts: They might do meet and greets. They might have some type of signing event, right? This is a very similar thing, but they are not allowing a unfettered access situation to them, which is what we are doing at these romance novels of ah um signing events.
Veronica Adams: That's right. That's right.
Veronica Adams: It's true.
Heather Roberts: And unfortunately, people have the inability to think clearly. I don't know if they're in a sexual haze. i don't understand what goes on in people's brains, but we need to create some lines of demarcation and provide some security and access.
Veronica Adams: Yes. And in encourage people to touch grass and remember that this is a fantasy event and not a free for all.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. I mean, you think about other events that were not, so it wasn't sexualized in nature, but people are fist fighting over books.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Bro, what?
Veronica Adams: Yes. Another example of readers behaving badly.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, but this is my point.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: like It's not just, this is an example of, it's not just the sexualized portion of it.
Veronica Adams: no
Heather Roberts: That's the the the part that gets talked about the most because obviously it's terrible and criminal, but people are,
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Veronica Adams: But it's, it's like different, right? Because we're talking about consumerism versus some sort of parasocial fantasy, sexualization and entitlement, right?
Veronica Adams: Like it's, you know, the, the fist fighting over books, those are the people that would have been like, you know, the cops would have been called on them at 3am outside of Best Buy on Black Friday, 15 years ago.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, no, it's true. It's another example of...
Veronica Adams: You know what I mean? Like,
Heather Roberts: Well, and this is why we're not allowed to have those events anymore either.
Veronica Adams: Right, right.
Heather Roberts: Because people have lost their damn minds.
Veronica Adams: People getting trampled at Walmart at midnight. Right, exactly. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Which is why I'm telling you this is not going to be a solvable problem to get the behavior to stop.
Veronica Adams: You're right. It's probably not. It's probably not. But the event organizers across the board, all events, not not just Sinners and Stardust, but all events, they can put protocols into place to put a little bit more separation between the talent and the attendees.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Heather Roberts: That's what I'm saying. we We can't just, you know, say, oh, stop the behavior.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yes, of course we can say that. Is it going to stop though? Probably not.
Veronica Adams: Right, right.
Heather Roberts: So what we need to do is put systems in place that stop the behavior but without, you know, trusting that people are going to be on their best behavior.
Veronica Adams: Exactly.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: which is why i never understood. i mean, this is getting a little philosophical, but when people say, you know, oh, well, you know, people should just have, ah everybody should have personal responsibility and that they should do, you know, X, Y, Z for, for pro pick, pick a political topic, right.
Heather Roberts: Pick any social topic.
Veronica Adams: Sir.
Heather Roberts: um You know, people should have personal responsibility. And my response is, well, what if they don't, what do we do with them?
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: As a society, what do you do with somebody who doesn't follow the rules? What do you do with them? If it's not a criminal thing, right?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Obviously, we put them in jail. We have no problem doing that in this country. But if they don't behave in ah in a way that is appropriate or whatever, what do you do with them?
Veronica Adams: That's true.
Veronica Adams: Right. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: They're, you know, you can't just ignore the problem. You have to create systems in place to either hope. I think of drug use for an example, right? People are like, oh, well you shouldn't do drugs. Okay. No, you shouldn't do drugs.
Heather Roberts: I agree. But what do you do with the people who are suffering from drug abuse and can't get help?
Veronica Adams: right
Heather Roberts: Oh, well they should just really have personal responsibility. Well, that's great. But what, what do you do with them?
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: And it goes around in this is a circle.
Veronica Adams: but you're right. They should have personal responsibility, but here's the thing. They don't.
Heather Roberts: They don't.
Veronica Adams: So what do we do about the fact that they don't?
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: And then we have to evaluate, are they harming themselves? Are they harming other people?
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: You know, is, is the drug use, not just something that's bad for them physically and mentally, but also something that's bad for our society or their community or their families? Yeah. there needs to be some sort of intervention in those situations.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: And also it's really just not a great idea morally or ethically to let people abuse something to their own detriment either.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: So then we have, you know, further conversations about personal choices and, and rights versus privileges in a society.
Heather Roberts: I
Veronica Adams: And like, You know, we we could peel so many layers, so many layers off this onion, right?
Heather Roberts: know. I told you this stuff. I told you this stuff was topical.
Veronica Adams: But at the end of the day, there has to be some sort of intervention to protect people that are being harmed by this unwanted behavior.
Heather Roberts: I told you.
Heather Roberts: Yes. And you can't just remove...
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: ah The people, like, you know, I think about homeless encampments being just removed from certain areas.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Just removing them does not fix the problem.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It doesn't make it go away.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: You have to create up systems that will help individuals fix the problem.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: And in the same way, know I just took a leap, but in the same way, we need to create systems at events like this to prevent people
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: problems from happening.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. yeah
Heather Roberts: And I don't know, I'd love if we could get some type of ah educational awareness program. Maybe that's what we're doing right now. Educational awareness for readers. How not to act at a book signing event.
Heather Roberts: This is not appropriate. I don't know what else to say. So much.
Veronica Adams: Well, and there's no, there's no like industry standard or, or some sort of professional organization where event organizers and planners have their own like trade union or something, right?
Veronica Adams: Where they're all the part of the same, you and I by education and practice and for some crazy fucking reason, desire at one point in both of our lives are lawyers.
Heather Roberts: Right. Yes. Right.
Veronica Adams: And we're both members of different bar associations. There is no similar trade organization for book signing event planners. Maybe there should be.
Heather Roberts: Maybe they should.
Veronica Adams: Maybe they should all have their own little whisper network where they're like, all right, this person is banned from all of our events going forward because of these allegations or this behavior, you know, and they don't do that.
Heather Roberts: yeah
Heather Roberts: right
Veronica Adams: Maybe they should.
Heather Roberts: and thisha Yeah, that that could prevent at least these these people from coming into these spaces and wreaking havoc in ah in a way that is unproductive.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Absolutely. And you are welcome to come. We want you here. We want to continue having community and interaction. And this is this is as good for the authors as it is fun for the readers. Like, it's not like it needs to end.
Veronica Adams: It's just there needs to be more protections and some sort of guardrails for how we deal with folks who, you know, I don't know, do we need a three strikes rule?
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: Right?
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Like...
Heather Roberts: I miss RT. I mean, RT didn't from, I've not heard any terrible stories about RT.
Veronica Adams: The good old days.
Heather Roberts: They perfected that by the end of it. And they gave no fucks. They, if you, if you stepped over the line, you were out.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. I've seen some mumbles about how there were some issues with RT in the beginning. So like way back, but by the end, before they shut it down, you're right.
Heather Roberts: um Oh, I'm sure. That's what I'm talking about.
Veronica Adams: It was, it was a well-oiled machine.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. Like it was very well oiled and, um, they were, they didn't play.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: And I mean, we, we once didn't even have tickets to RT, but went just to be at the bar, just to be in the hotel, you know, get network work because it was such an amazing networking opportunity.
Veronica Adams: a Yep. Yep. Yeah. Meet people, shake hands, share your business card, talk to folks.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Heather Roberts: Um, That was, yeah, way back in the day. hi I mean, our team is amazing.
Veronica Adams: I once met a very popular and very attractive cover model at RT and did not assault him.
Heather Roberts: Amazing.
Veronica Adams: So, you know, it's possible.
Heather Roberts: Amazing. Yeah. It's totally possible. ah I just don't know. People's psychological makeups are what they are.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, know. I know.
Heather Roberts: And while we can try to educate.
Veronica Adams: Well, and that's that's why I think that like the setting of this particular event played some sort of psychological part here because these readers aren't just getting together for romance in general. They're getting together and celebrating the really dark stuff.
Heather Roberts: Sure. Yeah. And it put them in a different mindset.
Veronica Adams: Uh-huh. And I think that's an event where for better or worse, more guardrails are probably required.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. You put them up just to, just to make everyone safe and yeah.
Veronica Adams: Mm-hmm. Yeah. that masked man stalker fantasy coming to life. um Maybe not with people who aren't openly and actively consenting to it.
Veronica Adams: Like who puts an air tag on a stranger? does that?
Heather Roberts: crazy stalkery people that's who does that like this is not your this goes back to people thinking they're the main character in their own you know novel essentially I know and they're fine with it somehow if they're doing it there's a lot about human psychology I don't understand that I would be up there
Veronica Adams: I know, but so many so many women have been victims of that kind of behavior. In their private lives.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, me either. Me either.
Heather Roberts: But yeah, so I think guardrails being put in place, huge help, huge help.
Veronica Adams: Agree.
Heather Roberts: And that's something that other event organizers should really consider because yeah.
Veronica Adams: Along with your own trade organization. Cause like, damn. damn
Heather Roberts: I also think having some type of a trade organization for event organizers would be lovely too, because it would vet new event or organizers coming in and could create some type of a mentorship process.
Veronica Adams: for sure.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: And would help cut down.
Veronica Adams: Accredit accreditation so readers can trust new events, right?
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Like, yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yes. That's, that's the whole thing. Because there's so many, you know, how many million lies have we seen over the years? A lot.
Veronica Adams: how many, like, how many people have we seen get taken?
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: They pay table fees and they're like, I'm so excited to support this event.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: And then, excuse me, the event organizer absconds with the funds or just doesn't follow through.
Heather Roberts: time
Veronica Adams: and it you know,
Heather Roberts: So many times over the years. So many times.
Veronica Adams: that the ball in Baltimore earlier this year, what was that event? God, that's it.
Heather Roberts: There's the Million Lies Festival. a Million Lies.
Veronica Adams: Thank you.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: The fire festival of books.
Heather Roberts: Yes. Yes. But that's not an uncommon event, unfortunately.
Veronica Adams: yeah Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Heather Roberts: I mean, I've been to signings where there have been absolute crickets. Like you're hanging out in a room. there's You're like, how many actual book sales or event tickets were made here? And no, I won't even go to a book signing event if the ah tickets are free in any way. Absolutely the fuck not.
Veronica Adams: That's probably a smart choice.
Heather Roberts: Because i have found in my experience, if the tickets are free, people have no skin in the game. So they might accept a ticket or buy a ticket and they just decide not to come because they.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Veronica Adams: Right. You're inviting people to take tickets and then not show up.
Heather Roberts: three Right. So you can be like, oh, I gave out 3000 tickets, but nobody shows up because nobody has any type of skin in the game.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: So having an actual price point, yeah, I think that's helpful.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Heather Roberts: But then you need to make sure that you're putting on an event that is, you know, worth that price point.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. the The publicity for the event is also super important.
Heather Roberts: Yes. Just throwing it up on Facebook is not enough, friends.
Veronica Adams: No, no
Heather Roberts: It's not enough.
Veronica Adams: no. Newsletter marketing, advertising, important stuff.
Heather Roberts: Actual local news, advertising, all that sort of stuff.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Hire somebody to help.
Heather Roberts: Anyway, well, I would be remiss if we didn't talk briefly about the new courses that I just put together and part of the reason why I was off for a couple of months.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: shameless plug.
Heather Roberts: It has to be. You know, I put a lot. Why? Because I put lot.
Veronica Adams: We don't this for our health. we i mean, you and I could sit on the phone and bitch about shit all day long.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Like that.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, we do that privately all the time anyway.
Veronica Adams: we We've been friends for 20. You told me earlier this week, 21 years.
Heather Roberts: twenty Well, 21 years since we've been sisters.
Veronica Adams: Jesus.
Heather Roberts: We met in, yeah we met in 2020 or 2020, 2003.
Veronica Adams: We've been friends more than that. 2003.
Heather Roberts: 22 years.
Veronica Adams: two thousand three
Heather Roberts: my husband. Yeah. You've been around long before.
Veronica Adams: the fastest 22 years of my life love
Heather Roberts: Right. i now i've known you longer than i've known my husband
Veronica Adams: indeed indeed yeah no we we could do this privately but you you we are doing this for a reason a variety of reasons that that serve for book's sake that serve 1852 media that serve literary
Heather Roberts: oh yeah you been around long before
Heather Roberts: like
Heather Roberts: variety of reasons, one of them.
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: and yeah so plug it let's
Heather Roberts: And serve you as the listener.
Veronica Adams: That's right. That's right. So plug it.
Heather Roberts: and
Veronica Adams: Let's hear all about the courses you've been working on.
Heather Roberts: okay. So I created something as part of 1852 Media and it is called The Publishing Store.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: It is a group of six courses that are really encased in the fundamentals of how to publish a book.
Veronica Adams: Which love.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: If you do not know where to start, you've thought about writing, if you've always wanted do jazz,
Veronica Adams: You've got finished manuscripts, but you've just never hit publish.
Heather Roberts: You can go, the bundle is the best value because of course it is, but you can go and buy any of these courses individually.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: If you think that that's something that you you just need that one course. ah The first course is ah Mastering Your Author Brand. That is currently on sale right now for $33.
Heather Roberts: It is usually So it's a massive discount of for our opening
Veronica Adams: And not going to lie, there are some really long time experienced authors who could benefit from that too. That's not just a, that's not necessarily just a beginner course.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: That's that's like,
Heather Roberts: i Correct. I break it down to a granular level for the purpose of those coming in without any type of knowledge, but there is information in these courses that an author at any level could really find value in.
Veronica Adams: Brand new. Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Absolutely.
Heather Roberts: You get a slide deck, you get workbooks, you get checkbooks, you get and me talking to you for however long the course is.
Veronica Adams: She thought of everything you guys. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, they're comprehensive and you can't find them anywhere else because I created them. This is not one of those, you know, oh, I bought a course and I'm selling you a course. No, this has actual information in it.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: They, uh, valuable information. I'm also, I've created a YouTube channel as well called the publishing store. So once you subscribe to this one, if you haven't already subscribed to for book sake, go and subscribe to the publishing store.
Veronica Adams: Please. Yes.
Heather Roberts: I'm putting up, uh, information tips and tricks, uh, from those courses in there. And I really created it because, you know, not everybody can afford to hire Veronica and i to personally consult them.
Veronica Adams: yep
Heather Roberts: And we recognize that. We know that times are tough out there and we still want to be able to help as many authors as we possibly can. So this is a lot of great information at a lower price point that you can come in and work through it at your own pace.
Veronica Adams: yes
Heather Roberts: ah you can
Veronica Adams: Which is, I think, maybe the best part of it because you can self-pace it.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: You don't have one of us in your ear going, why haven't you done this yet?
Heather Roberts: Yes, exactly.
Veronica Adams: Send me the shit I need to get this done for you. Where have you been? what are you doing?
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: Get off of TikTok and write your damn book. like You get to control the whole pace of this, which is great.
Heather Roberts: Yes, a whole piece. And there's great courses in there. There's one about traditional publishing. So if you ever thought about what does it take for traditional publishing, you don't understand how it works.
Heather Roberts: You don't understand the agent author relationship.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: You don't understand your relationship with the publisher, what that would look like. you don't know even know how to write a query letter, this will help you. It gives you the elements of a query letter, it gives you examples of what a bad, okay, and good query letter are so that you can really see the nitty-gritty of what makes a query letter good.
Veronica Adams: indeed
Heather Roberts: And it tells you where to find agents as well. I mean, this is not, this is all information or at least a lot of it. Some of it's my opinion that, you know, you can't find anywhere else, but you could go and Google some of this stuff, but you, I've curated it all for you in a lovely little lesson.
Veronica Adams: Right. Well, and you have to sort through all of the like sponsored results in the Google search and the the AI summary that's not always completely accurate or cites someone who's out there doing something for profit, like a vanity press who will, yeah, yeah, for better or worse, may or may
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Right. Right.
Heather Roberts: which we talk about in there as well. Yeah.
Veronica Adams: have more of their own bottom line interests in heart rather than the quality of the support you get publishing your book with them. yeah.
Heather Roberts: yeah And then we have self-publishing success, which talks about you being your own boss and everything, everything that comes with that.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: From filing legal paperwork with your state to you know time management opportunities and things that you can do to help that, as well as what you really need to do to be successful as your own publishing house.
Veronica Adams: Okay.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Then there's understanding book marketing, which is exactly what it sounds like, and really breaks down all of the different types of author marketing for authors, gives you content pillars.
Heather Roberts: It's really intensive there. And then we have advertising strategy for authors, which is and a really great overview course of all of the opportunities that you have for advertising.
Heather Roberts: And then finally, we have building a powerful review network.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: And that is about getting reviews for your books. So I think it's really comprehensive. I think it's great. I think everybody should benefit from it. But anyway, run and go check it out.
Heather Roberts: It's thepublishingstore.com.
Veronica Adams: yeah Yes.
Heather Roberts: And I really appreciate it. I put a ah lot of blood, sweat, and tears into those courses. So I love them to help people.
Veronica Adams: that That was the primary Summerside quest, let's be real.
Heather Roberts: Yes. Yeah. That was the primary one. I couldn't do that and this at the same time. It was too much.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It was too much.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And to the other, you know, and work.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. It's all good. I mean, summer vacation is over here. We are back in school full time. This is, it's all good.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, I think this was really nice. It was ah it was a good break.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And we're excited to bring on some new people to talk with in the future.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: So if you are interested in coming on for book's sake, please reach out and let us know.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: We'd be happy to chat with you and and see if you're a good fit for us.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Find out what it is you'd like to talk about. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. So please reach out. Admin at 1852 Media. Check us out. So, yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yep.
Heather Roberts: so But I think that is it for the day. I think it's a that's enough.
Veronica Adams: Awesome.
Heather Roberts: And moral of today's, know, moral of today's story, don't be an asshole.
Veronica Adams: It'll never, it'll never be enough.
Veronica Adams: Don't, yeah. Don't, don't, don't be a sexual assaulter. Don't be a creep or a stalker.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, I think you summed it up great there. And think about your actions and go try to help someone today.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Help someone, be a kind human.
Veronica Adams: I love that.
Heather Roberts: yeah
Veronica Adams: What a great way to end.
Heather Roberts: All right.
