Transcript
1852media: Hello, hello, and welcome to For Book's Sake. I'm Heather Roberts.
Veronica: I am Veronica Adams and we are 1852 Media.
1852media: And the sound, our opening song just wanted to start immediately this time. Usually we get like a two second delay.
Veronica: Yes, apparently it knows it's Friday.
1852media: um So if it was cut off, meh.
Veronica: It's time to jam. It's ah an interesting week.
1852media: Yes.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And Veronica is joining us from sunny Florida.
Veronica: Yes, I am currently on St. Pete Beach attending Nink as an industry guest, learning a lot, meeting lots of new people, having a great time.
1852media: Yeah, so getting out there, we love it.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And thank you for, you know, fitting this in to your schedule down there because we could have skipped, but Veronica said, no, no, we're going to do this.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: i I did. I am committed to the podcast. Also, we're recording during the lunch break and it's a Mexican buffet and I am currently on a restrictive diet that Mexican food is not compatible with.
1852media: Yes.
Veronica: So it's ah easier for me to be recording the podcast than it is watching people eat enchiladas.
1852media: That makes total sense, because that would be hard to resist.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Very hard to resist.
Veronica: 100%.
1852media: So, well, we appreciate your dedication on all accounts.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Of course, of course, wouldn't miss it for anything.
1852media: um
Veronica: he Oh, Lord, have mercy.
1852media: Today, we are on part two of Cockygate. So, yeah, if you've not been to, yeah, and this is once again, yeah,
Veronica: ah heather Heather with her printouts from Pacer.
1852media: this is, oh, hold on. We have the, we have the actual transcript too. So, um, yeah, I can't help it. It's just, it's a thing. Okay.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: Um, the paper gets recycled. Calm down. Um, but yeah, if you didn't listen to part one, go back and listen to it. It'll lead up to where we are picking up today.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah you you don't want to dive into this shit show without listening to part one.
1852media: Um, very brief
1852media: Yeah. I mean, that gives the whole background on who the players are and everything, what the environment was like.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Um, but the short, short version for those who are refusing to go back and listen, um, is that Felina Hopkins through hop hop productions, Inc, which we still agree is an adorable name for a company.
Veronica: Yes, that just absolutely absolutely nailed it.
1852media: Yeah. It's great. Yeah, really good. um Through Hop Hop Productions sued three individuals for violation of two of her trademarks that she had that trademarked the term cocky for use in romance novels.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: That's right.
1852media: And one was a word mark, one was a specific mark of how it looked on the cover of her romance books.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Um, and she sued Kevin Nupper. I don't know if I'm saying his last name, right? I apologize if I'm not, but I believe there's a silent case.
Veronica: Probably.
1852media: So Kevin Nupper, uh, he's an attorney and author who, uh, filed a, uh, petition to, uh, basically challenge the trade.
Veronica: Challenge the trademark.
1852media: Yeah. Thank you.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah.
1852media: Uh, to challenge the trademark. My brain stopped braining for a moment.
Veronica: It's Friday.
1852media: Um, um And then Jennifer Watson, who was the publicist of Cocktails, a cocky anthology um that was put together from all of the authors in the industry, a lot of large named authors who wanted to essentially raise money to help you know ensure that creative expression ah still exists.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: Yes. that The money specifically, I think, was to be donated to the Authors Guild and RWA in their legal battle over v the the trademark itself.
1852media: Yes. and And creative expression. That was like their big thing.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: um And then Tara Crescent, who is an author and has released many books, the ones in which are mentioned here have Cocky in the title. So
Veronica: Yes. Misfortune of using this same trend at the same time as Felina's trademark registration being approved.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And so here we are in the United States District Court in the Southern District of New York. um Just as a note.
Veronica: Seems like it's where everything happens, by the way.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Can I just, you know.
1852media: They don't play like they do not play. And this case is a shit show um from the beginning.
Veronica: From the beginning, for like from the outset, it's just an absolute, it's a roller coaster ride.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Quick disclaimer, Veronica and I are attorneys. We're not your attorneys. This is for entertainment purposes only and commentary.
Veronica: That's right. Yes.
1852media: This is our legal opinions. Go get your own legal opinion.
Veronica: That's right.
1852media: um oh
Veronica: We yeah absolutely not dispensing advice here, just editorializing.
1852media: Yeah. 100%. I'm going to editorialize a lot because this case, holy shit.
Veronica: yeah
1852media: Okay.
Veronica: hey
1852media: It was filed on May 25th, 2018.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: If I recall, isn't that a holiday weekend? and i I need to go back and look.
Veronica: Memorial Day, it's it's Memorial Day adjacent.
1852media: I believe it's Memorial Day weekend.
Veronica: If it's not the weekend, it is adjacent to it for sure.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: I think it was filed on net. We're going to have to.
Veronica: Do we do we have a calendar we can pull up very quickly to just confirm?
1852media: ah Yeah, I'm swinging back through. I believe it was Memorial Day weekend, and I'm just interested in what day of the week that was.
Veronica: 2018.
1852media: May 25th, 2000. That was a Friday.
Veronica: Oh, what a bitch move. The Friday before Memorial Day?
1852media: Yeah, and I'm pulling this up. Yeah, Memorial Day.
Veronica: that That is, that's some hateful fucking practice of law.
1852media: It was Monday.
Veronica: I'm sorry. Excuse my language.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: There's just like and
1852media: I'm just double checking. Yeah. Monday was.
Veronica: This is the kind of shit that gives plaintiffs' bars a bad reputation.
1852media: who Yeah. So it was filed on Friday. They requested a temporary, this is Felina who's filing. Okay.
Veronica: Yes, her attorneys filed a lawsuit to to proceed against the three defendants.
1852media: And yes.
1852media: So they filed a complaint, which normal. Okay. You file a standard.
Veronica: Standard, yeah.
1852media: If they just want to file the complaint on the Friday before Memorial Day weekend, fine. Okay. You did whatever. You file that whenever the hell you want to file it.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: But they also filed a um preliminary injunction and temporary restraining order.
Veronica: Mm -hmm.
1852media: And the court initially grants that for like two seconds, like literally, I think it was like less than 24 hours, grants it on its face.
Veronica: Yep.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: And then after reading the defendant's petition for cancellation before the trademark board um and reading the plaintiff's motion and supporting papers, they quickly decided to dissolve the preliminary injunction
Veronica: Yes. yes
Veronica: and set an evidentiary hearing.
1852media: Yes, instead of an evidentiary hearing for June 1st, okay.
Veronica: So literally just a week after the complaint is filed. So this is a lot of action in a lawsuit at first, especially in federal court.
1852media: Yes.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: um this is This is a judge who is taking this very seriously.
1852media: Yeah. And, you know, when you're filing a preliminary injunction, ah you're basically saying, Hey, judge, I have an emergency here.
Veronica: That's right.
1852media: We are going to be harmed, like unbelievably.
Veronica: if you don't prevent this thing from happening or or compel this thing to happen.
1852media: So if you don't, yes.
Veronica: Sometimes it's ah compulsion rather than restriction with the injunctions and the and the TROs and stuff.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: So, yeah.
1852media: And the court is oftentimes very you know receptive to that and they're they're very respectful of that. Okay, this is an emergency situation, okay?
Veronica: Okay.
1852media: um So they initially granted that and said, okay, you can't basically, it was to prevent the publication of cocktails, let's be honest.
Veronica: Right.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: That's why it was filed when it was filed.
Veronica: Right. Yes.
1852media: Cocktails was scheduled to be released, I believe it was the Tuesday. So that would have been May 29th.
Veronica: The 29th.
1852media: And, um, the court, you know, granted the temporary injunction. And so originally they thought that they were going to have to halt the the release of cocktails.
Veronica: Right. Right.
1852media: Um, but then on the 29th they rescinded that. So, um, yeah, here we go.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: So, and then cocktails was released.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: and we know what happened there. The court seemed, I'm just going to, the court seemed a little annoyed by cocktails, just a little, a little annoyed by cocktails.
Veronica: Just a little.
1852media: he did He did not think it was really in good faith um that cocktails was done.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: But let's be honest,
Veronica: Well, but the allegation there is that Jennifer Watson somehow compelled or solicited infringements of Folina's trademark in putting in in promoting the anthology, which really is all she did.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: She's not responsible for organizing it or publishing it or
1852media: Now.
Veronica: having any of the stories in it written.
1852media: Correct.
Veronica: um But on the basis of the facts alleged in the complaint and the petition for the injunction, the judge is looking at her in a very, very negative light, as though she's some sort of instigator or intellectual property infringer.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: That was how she was, you know, made to painted.
Veronica: Painted, yeah, by Folina's attorneys, yep.
1852media: Yeah, made to appear. Yeah, which was really unfortunate in a variety of ways. And the judge has a quote in the transcript, which I do not appreciate at all as a publicist.
Veronica: ah she's This has gotten under her skin so bad, you guys.
1852media: Oh, my God. The judge, I mean, I have moments where I like the judge and other, but I mean, but that makes him a good judge, right?
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: But we'll get into that. We'll get into the transcript. But so where we're at now is that the TRO has been lifted, cocktails is released, and we have a hearing in a week.
Veronica: yes
1852media: So now the question is, you know, notice they have to serve, right? The plaintiff still has to serve the complaint on the defendants.
Veronica: Yes. Yeah. For anybody who's really unfamiliar with the legal system, in civil lawsuits, when somebody sues you, a process server has to deliver a copy of the lawsuit to you.
Veronica: Or you are otherwise required to receive some sort of notice that you're being sued so that you can respond.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: And there are all sorts of deadlines that are associated with that process. And so ah the obligation to answer a lawsuit doesn't even It doesn't attach or it doesn't the clock doesn't start ticking on that until you have been served or have received the notice that's required.
1852media: Right. And for service of process, you can technically know about the lawsuit, but not have been served, and the clock does not start so ticking until you are properly served.
Veronica: Yes. Yes.
Veronica: You can have actual knowledge and and as long as the service hasn't been accomplished because it's a very different thing.
1852media: So, yes. Yeah.
1852media: yeah
Veronica: um in in most jurisdictions and in this one in particular. ah Yeah, you you can evade responding to the lawsuit um indefinitely.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: ah yeah I had the misfortune of practicing as an associate underneath a sole partner who ultimately lost his license for helping people evade service of process, among other things.
1852media: Hmm.
Veronica: um
1852media: Right. I mean, you shouldn't evade service of process, but you could, you should not.
Veronica: no
Veronica: No, you should, you should not.
1852media: Um, but you can have actual knowledge that something was filed against you, right?
Veronica: Uh -huh.
1852media: But not have been served properly and therefore you don't have to respond until you actually have been served properly.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Right. Right.
1852media: But so here's, there's service is different than notice, as we're saying, okay?
Veronica: Yes. Yeah.
1852media: So there has to be notice of this hearing um that's happening on June 1st go out, right?
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: And so everybody eventually does get notice of the hearing, but good freaking golly.
Veronica: yeah
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Does the attorney for Felina make a big fucking deal about trying to say that Tara Crescent and Jennifer Watson are evading service, a process?
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Sir, it has been like four fucking days.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Calm yourself.
Veronica: Right?
1852media: Calm yourself.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah, the way he tried to throw defense counsel and and Tara and Jennifer under the bus during the the evidentiary hearing for the the issues with notice and service on their parts, like my guy, it hasn't even been 10 business days.
1852media: Right. Like I just found that completely unprofessional to try to make this big deal about service when it's been ah they're on a holiday weekend.
Veronica: Yes. Uh -huh.
1852media: So we are now, yeah.
Veronica: no less and two parties who are completely outside the jurisdiction of this court but for the fact that there's a federal question involved in this litigation which is why we're in the southern district of New York rather than ah where Jennifer lives or where Tara lives or where you know anyone else lives for that matter right
1852media: Right.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Correct. Yeah.
Veronica: So you got to get process servers in every location, coordinate, get them the documents they need, and then they have to track these people down, right?
1852media: Right.
Veronica: And actually make sure that the paperwork's delivered to them.
1852media: So, yeah. So, they filed this on on a Friday before a holiday weekend. So, i'm I'm guessing also Friday afternoon.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: I don't have, you know, guests, I don't have exact... moment of that
Veronica: I know, don't you wish the docket was time stamped?
1852media: I wish it was timestamped, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Friday afternoon, okay? So they, yeah, they file this.
Veronica: Three o 'clock.
1852media: I doubt it was at 9 a .m., right? Because when you're when you're playing fuck fuck games as an attorney, you really, you go for, you go for gold, right?
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Yeah, that's what this is.
Veronica: No, you're you're not wrong. like You were 100 % correct.
1852media: This is...
Veronica: i just I don't think I've ever heard you use that term of phrase. I don't think I've heard heard anyone call it that before, but it's such a brilliant way to label it. it is it's It's one big screw you game, yeah.
1852media: It's what it is. Yeah. And this is really one of the, part of the reasons why I hated being an attorney because this is common practice. This is not like an attorney would be like, you know, you, that attorney Cardillo, I believe is the Felina's attorney.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: He would be looked at at his peers and be like, Oh, you gave it to them on a holiday weekend on a Friday. Like good for you. Like,
Veronica: Yeah, there's the practice of law and then there's the mind fuck that happens between attorneys, right?
1852media: You know?
Veronica: Like and the power struggles and the this culture of
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: 100%.
Veronica: the bar is on the floor and my professional responsibility and obligations to you as opposing counsel are just marginally above that bar because I'm trying to zealously represent my client by another bar standards up here.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: So there is a lot of this psychological shit that happens in the practice of law, which makes it completely unbearable for anybody with actual morals or some sort of ethical compass.
1852media: Tons, yeah.
1852media: Yeah, to to do litigation, it is very challenging ah to do litigation.
Veronica: God, the worst.
1852media: other a and Other aspects of the law are not as egregious with this, but litigating litigating attorneys, oh my God, this is common.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: this is of course he Of course he did.
Veronica: Yes. like Right.
1852media: Of course.
Veronica: I am an asshole, but I am not the right kind of asshole to be a litigator.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: And I found that out after seven years of practice, right?
1852media: Right.
1852media: Yeah, same.
Veronica: like I am absolutely an asshole, but I am not that kind of an asshole. So here we are.
1852media: Right. It's just, and they can enjoyment out of this. They're like, Oh, yeah, right before, you know, holiday weekend, like, you know, Oh, he's gonna get the notice on his, you know, phone or whatever in his email.
Veronica: Yes. Yeah. yeah
Veronica: Yeah. and and And fuck these authors and this publicist and this an anthology. like we're We're going to screw everything up.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: yeah
Veronica: And you know we're going to show them that we have some sort of leverage or power here using the legal system.
1852media: It's psychological warfare is what it is. And there's a lot of that in here that they try to do.
Veronica: fire Oh, God.
1852media: And we, I don't worry.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: I'll highlight it. Um, but so anyway, they file this Friday, right? And so Monday the courts closed.
Veronica: Oh.
1852media: So now we have Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, because the June 1st was a Friday, right? Am I, am I correct in that?
Veronica: Yes, yes. The hearing is the Friday after the file the first filing.
1852media: Yeah. And so there's a letter filed by the the Council for Terracrescent.
Veronica: Okay.
1852media: um she there they believe is now it is he He files this letter to the court on May 29th, which is that Tuesday, right?
Veronica: Um, yeah.
1852media: Tuesday, the court's now open, first day of business.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: um And he files a letter to the court and basically says, you know, we represent Tara Crescent where we're writing jointly on behalf of her and the other named defendants, Kevin and Jennifer.
1852media: right? So one, one letter for all defendants, much appreciated. Um, and basically says, you know, nobody's been served with this complaint. Um, you know, we were notified, um, last Friday afternoon
Veronica: There it is.
1852media: But there it is. Before the complaint and motion were filed, um you know, plaintiff's counsel attempted to notify the other two defendants prior to the retention of counsel.
Veronica: from
1852media: um You know, they're scrambling to get attorneys, right? Because they hear that a...
Veronica: Because they get sued on a Friday afternoon before a three -day holiday weekend.
1852media: Yes, yes. So... The undersigned, who is Tara's attorney, appeared before Judge Ramos on Friday along with plaintiff's counsel to oppose on the day of the complaint was filed on May 25th to oppose plaintiff's request for a temporary restraining order.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: And Judge Ramos denied plaintiff's emergency motion in light of plaintiff's significant delay in seeking judicial recourse. So here's the thing. um Felina was coming into the court and saying, this is an emergency.
1852media: right And they went in for this temporary restraining order.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And the defendant, Tara's lawyers, pointed out like um she's known about this for seven months.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah.
1852media: There's no emotion.
Veronica: She waited until less than a week before the publication of this anthology to try and stop the publication of this anthology.
1852media: Yeah, but she's known about Tara's books, the only one who has who's named here who has even potential of alleged infringement.
Veronica: Right, right. Well, because she's the first person, I think, to publish anything with Kaki in the title after Felina filed her to register her trademark, right?
1852media: um
1852media: Right.
1852media: I believe so, yeah.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah. And that all happened about eight to nine months prior to this lawsuit being filed. It was the fall of 2017 when all of that went down and Tara ends up in the crosshairs of Felina and her attorneys.
1852media: Right.
1852media: And yeah, so Tara's attorneys goes in there and they're like, you know, plaintiff has known about defendants use of the word cocky and romance to novels title since at least August of 2017.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: We are standing in May of 2018.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: This is not a fucking emergency in in legal terms.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: That's what they were saying.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And the court agreed and said, yeah, no, that's when they lifted the the temporary restraining order and they set the hearing for Friday.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Um, and so the defendants are saying, you know, like we think that Friday's too soon, that this is obviously not an emergency. Like we don't need to, you know, rush this.
1852media: There's no chance for, yeah.
Veronica: We still have an issue with service, like there's actual knowledge, but there has not been proper formal legal service of process, like ah procedural hiccups here, things that have to be addressed according to the, I mean, federal rules of civil procedure at a minimum.
1852media: Right.
1852media: And, you know, they're like, we would like some limited discovery. we want We want to do some stuff before we get to actually coming in for a hearing.
Veronica: Yep.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And so then it becomes a letter war. Okay, now we're in a letter war because
Veronica: Which, by the way, I have never seen such a shit show of correspondence between counsel and the court.
1852media: Never seen this. No, no.
Veronica: I mean, this, like, at least it was an ex parte, right?
1852media: Never, never.
Veronica: Like, which, for those who don't know, is when someone tries to communicate with the judge privately, um in a way that would maybe prejudice the opposing party, right?
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: um But still,
1852media: Yeah, there are very limited circumstances when you could privately speak to a judge in an ongoing court case.
Veronica: Yes, yes, absolutely. And there are a whole bunch of rules and case law out there about what is and isn't proper and and how that actually can be accomplished without being considered some sort of reversible error or appealable issue.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: um Yeah, I just, I don't think in all of my years practicing, I saw anything like this in terms of the flurry of letters rather than pleadings, you know, nope, right.
1852media: i Never.
1852media: Motions, right. no There's no pleadings.
Veronica: Motions and memoranda, sure, right?
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Complaints and answers and affirmative defenses, absolutely. But just like, on firm letterhead correspondence between counsel and the court.
1852media: Letters?
1852media: In a federal case, no less.
Veronica: And it's like, right. Well, and the judge isn't necessarily responding to these correspondences on the docket, but like,
1852media: Right.
Veronica: one attorney sends a letter, and then the next attorney sends a letter responding to that letter, and it's all part of the record. And it's just a very unusual approach to getting this case resolved, you know?
1852media: Truly, truly unusual. It is so odd. i I'm glad you had the same takeaway because I saw this and I was like, we're in a letter war?
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: What the hell?
Veronica: Literally, I was like, what what the fuck are they doing?
1852media: What is
1852media: Yeah, I was like, what why aren't why isn't this an emotion? Like emotion to delay hearing or whatever.
Veronica: Right?
1852media: What is happening?
Veronica: and Maybe there's Southern District specific rules about this that we just aren't aware of.
1852media: That is possible.
Veronica: That's the only explanation. a but The only explanation I can come up with is that this is some sort of local rule. And if anybody out there is listening who's ever practiced in the Southern District of New York, you know, you want to enlighten us, feel free.
1852media: oh to
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: But that's the only thing I can think of because this is just so not standard in most other places as far as I know.
1852media: It was it was odd.
1852media: Yeah. So to explain to some people, there are the civil rules, right? Like there are, there are different rules.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: There's the standard rules that you learn that you're forced to learn in law school.
Veronica: Ace of promo.
1852media: I think you hope you learn, but then, you know, yes it bro Um, but then when you join, you have to be admitted to a federal court, like you need a sponsor to come with you to federal court.
1852media: When you become an attorney, you're a state attorney. You are like within your state, you can go and appear in front of state courts.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: But if you would like to go and appear in front of a federal court,
Veronica: Right.
Veronica: You have to be admitted to do that as well separately.
1852media: yes, that's separate. And so like I had a sponsor and he like sponsored me and I'm sure you did too. And there's a whole ceremony and I have ah i have a thing I have like, I don't know, it's somewhere around here.
Veronica: Yep. Yes. You take a completely separate oath ah to uphold the constitution and to abide by the the rules, both local and federal for this particular federal district court.
1852media: Yes. And when you are admitted to that court, you are informed that there are local rules of that court and you're expected to follow these rules and they have to do with usually like the way that they do things, right?
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Like for pleading requirements, you have to do it in this way and that way. It's like how they run things.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: So what Ron is saying is it very well could be a very normal practice in the Southern District of New York to file these letters that that's how they prefer that this information be passed about.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: But that is not something that I had seen previously either.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Girl, let's see. How many federal courts have I been admitted to? Just the Middle District of Florida and the 11th Circuit. Oh, no. ah Northern Indiana, Pro Hawk, Vichay one time.
1852media: Oh, look at you.
Veronica: Never. I know, right?
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: um Yeah, that's I think that's it. Never. OK, so my sample size is really low, right? But like there's enough variety there right between the two of us in our experiences that like this is, yeah, no, not at all.
1852media: Well, I'm in the Maryland, you know, one and... Yeah.
1852media: I've not seen it. I've not seen it. So very interesting. Anyway, so there's a letter then written back from Folina's attorneys, um basically,
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: basically saying that defendants are attempting, you know, their efforts by the defendants to thwart service.
Veronica: Mm -hmm.
1852media: Um, okay. he Sir, sir.
Veronica: Swart service!
1852media: He says, despite what I believe to be efforts by the defendant's support service, on Sunday, May 27th, 2018, I overnighted Federal Express, a complete and accurate copy of the OCS to Kevin Watson and Mr.
Veronica: now
1852media: Shoulder's firm on behalf of his clients, since they refused to provide me her contact information.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Because Tara's in Canada, and Tara also, we later find out, and it's presumed, honestly, from anybody who's in the romance industry for two seconds, that it's ah a pseudonym, it's a pen name.
Veronica: Yeah, it's a pun name. Yeah.
1852media: And so they're searching for Tara, Tara crescent to serve. They're not going to find Tara crescent to serve.
Veronica: I love how they went out of their way to geographically survey the area in which they think she lives.
1852media: Okay.
Veronica: And they came up with a street on a in a town near Ontario, Canada.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: And they're like, this is the only record of Tara Crescent we can find. And it's an actual street in this city in Canada. Like, okay.
1852media: Okay. But bro has been, I usually do not, you know, disparage attorneys in this way.
1852media: At least I try not to. Um, you know, but bro has, uh, he's earned it with the, with these pleadings.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: He literally is like saying that they're trying to duck service. It has been three days. Okay.
Veronica: but Literally.
1852media: literally actually three days over a holiday weekend and he's like saying they're trying to thwart service.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: You don't get to say that somebody's trying to duck service until like you have you have made so substantial efforts to try to serve them and then you have like documented proof of them like moving from location to location.
1852media: Like it it takes like a couple months to say that you they have abated service.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: Like come on, come the fuck on.
Veronica: Yeah. Minimum.
1852media: Yeah. Um, he also, you know, goes behind and says that, you know, Watson is the force behind cocktails.
Veronica: The force.
1852media: Um, the force behind it that she played a key role in a juggernaut attack on her on Felina's trademarks. Um, and that since her cl, since Felina has been the victim of anti intellectual property crusade, there has been an onslaught of books published that purposefully infringe on her trademark.
1852media: I laughed so hard at that line because I forgot about that.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: I forgot that people went and changed their book titles.
Veronica: the There was a window of time where everybody was publishing a cocky book.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: It was cocky something or something cocky, like.
1852media: And during during this whole thing, literally thousands of romance authors went onto Amazon and added, I know some authors added to their actual books that are already in existence, like the word cocky somewhere, and just just out of protest.
Veronica: Yes. Yeah.
1852media: um And that made me laugh really hard that it was, he he's, right.
Veronica: Yeah. was The collective industry -wide fuck you to Felina for overstepping. you know I mean, maybe her heart was in the right place and her intentions were good.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: She says that she was ah acting on business advice from a trusted business acquaintance or friend. And that may very well be true, but what she actually did
1852media: Right. It was bad advice. That's what it was.
Veronica: It was.
1852media: It was bad advice.
Veronica: It was. Or the way her attorneys executed it for her maybe was an overreach. I don't know that she necessarily had the lay of the land in terms of what can and can't be trademarked.
1852media: Wow.
1852media: Right. i This definitely, is he zealously representing his client? Yes. But is this an overreach?
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Yes. Also, yes, massively.
Veronica: Happens all the time.
1852media: Happens all the time. But it's, you know, he's using the words like, you know, because of the flagrant attempt by Crescent and Watson to avoid service. Sir, it has been.
Veronica: The best part is they they they they allege that there's an address for Watson.
1852media: Freeze!
Veronica: And then her attorneys come back and they're like, yeah, she's never lived there. That's not an address ever that has ever been associated with her.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: like Dude's got his facts wrong and then is complaining that these people are not, you know, doing their due diligence and just submitting themselves to service a process.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Like, my guy, how long you been practicing? That's a you problem, not a them problem.
1852media: yeah Exactly, exactly. um So you know then the defendants actually file a opposition to plaintiff's order to show cause the day before the hearing.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: So they filed that on May 31st, and it it basically has all the legal arguments in it.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: I mean, there's a variety of things. that One thing they they say, you know Kevin shouldn't even be here. like Kevin shouldn't be here.
Veronica: Yeah, like but this man has done nothing to Felina except for petition the Patent and Trademark Office to dissolve her registered mark.
1852media: he if they
1852media: Right. And so this is just an attempt to, you know, almost retaliation to include him in this.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And also try to bring that case into this court's jurisdiction and like that don't play.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Like that's not appropriate to do.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: If you want to fight that case, go over to the US Patent and Trademark Office and fight that case.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Right. um And then they say, you know, what we've talked said about ah Jennifer before, you know, she is she she was just the publicist here.
1852media: She was just promoting and marketing the book. She did not create the book. She didn't write any of the stories. She had nothing to do with it.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And she was doing it for free.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: And then for Tara, they say essentially that Felina knew about Tara's books for months. And she actually admitted that she didn't think it was going to be a problem, that there was no issue like in messages to Tara.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: So Tara's like, all right, we're all good. And then she goes in, you know, files this lawsuit, so.
Veronica: Right. And that despite the use of the the same word in book titles, that there's no confusion, that consumers know exactly, you know, a bunch of other ah things that are in the legal test for whether or not we have a cause of action here on the allegations that Felina has made.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Yeah. And the court goes through the test you know at the hearing as well for for that.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: But in order to see if there's something that they should go, I'm trying to think if there's any ah anything else in here that specifically I wanted to to pull out
Veronica: To highlight from the the ah the memorandum and in opposition.
1852media: That's a highlight.
1852media: Yeah. I mean, I highlighted, but the question is, do you care?
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um yeah i mean think
Veronica: Only only for the juiciest stuff.
1852media: I know. They brought up good points though. You know, like no one person should be able to claim a monopoly on such a commonly used word for book titles and a genre to do.
Veronica: in Yep.
1852media: So here would be like an author claiming trademark rights and the word death on a series title for murder series and mysteries and suing anyone who uses that word in their crime stories. It's yes, that 100 % is very true.
Veronica: Mm
1852media: um And, you know, cocky is commonly used in terms of romance novels.
Veronica: hmm.
1852media: I like that this was actually written in a pleading. Like, I just had to take a step back and be like, this is an illegal pleading. um Cocky is commonly used in terms of titles of romance novels, in part because of its double entendre as a sexual innuendo that references part of the male anatomy and a synonym for being arrogant or a bad boy, both of which are relevant themes in these types of stories.
Veronica: Yeah. After reading the transcript of the mo the the evidentiary hearing and emotion arguments, I will never look at the phrase male prowess the same.
1852media: Yeah, very, very true. They did also, they brought up Cockygate as well in in their opposition and, um you know, called it a confluence of events that have turned into hashtag Cockygate.
Veronica: Of course. Yes.
Veronica: Someone, someone started a fire and now it's out of control.
1852media: And yeah, um And they also say that cocktails is essentially a parody.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And I thought that that was a really clever and fun argument for it, because it it essentially is.
Veronica: Parodies, fair use.
1852media: Parodies Fair Use, and they used a case with Barbie Girl, the song from Aqua.
Veronica: Okay, he's a shitty human being, but Judge Kaczynski, that's a nerd thing for me.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: I love that fucking case, okay?
1852media: It's a great case.
Veronica: all The parties are advised to chill.
1852media: Yeah, it's a great case.
Veronica: oh
1852media: And they came out and said that, you know, just Barbie Girl is a song about the values, Danish musical artists, a quack, associated with Barbie dolls.
Veronica: and Yeah, mattel mattel Mattel sued Aqua yeah for infringement and the Ninth Circuit held that it was fair use because it was parody.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: it was parody. And so I thought it was clever that they brought that in here and said, listen, it's parody.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: It has a large rooster on the cover.
Veronica: Uh -huh.
1852media: And, um you know, they're essentially just that the stories themselves occasionally reference chickens and roosters. And like it, the point was to show how ridiculous this is.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: And anyway, I thought that that was important to highlight as well with cocktails specifically.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um And then they go through, let's see, yeah, they go through the test and basically knock down every single thing in the test.
Veronica: Yeah. they they um There are certain things that the court has to analyze in its fact -finding mission um to determine whether or not
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Salinas complaint can proceed and, you know, are are we going to litigate this and go through summary judgment and maybe have a trial on it eventually? Or are we going to likely dismiss it because there just isn't, you know, there aren't enough merits here, right?
1852media: know
Veronica: um And so there's this whole legal analysis. It's like eight steps, right, or eight factors.
1852media: Oh, yeah. And the Rogers test, I believe.
Veronica: it's It's pretty, yeah, yeah it's layered. It's like an onion. You peel one layer back, then you got to look at another one.
1852media: Yep.
Veronica: You just go all the way through it. um And they address all of those so in their opposition memorandum, and then that is something that they discuss in depth during the hearing.
1852media: Yeah. I did like, so one of the one of those steps is to determine whether um limiting the use is in the public interest or not, right?
1852media: Like um whether the trademark preliminary junction, excuse me.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: limiting the use of the trademark would be in the public interest. And I thought it was really funny in the opposition.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: The last line, this is how they end their opposition, right? No public interest would be served by delaying adjudication of Kevin's cancellation proceeding on the merits. To the contrary, considering the fervor that has propelled cocktails to number 25 on the USA Today best -selling books list, it appears that there is a strong public interest in permitting that cancellation proceeding to move forward so that fundamental issues of registerability underlying Cockygate could be meaningfully resolved.
1852media: They're basically saying that like if you want to look at public interest, the public has spoken. It's at 25. The public is saying, we don't support this.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: So that's clearly in our favor.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And I thought that was a nice way to end that.
Veronica: Absolutely.
1852media: Then we have the hearing.
Veronica: The good old days when you could put together an indie anthology and hit the list.
1852media: Right? I know. Let's have a moment of silence for that.
Veronica: pour Yeah, pour pour one out for the original USA Today bestseller list.
1852media: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Okay, so now we're at the hearing, right?
Veronica: Yes, yes.
1852media: And literally, I think we're in two pages in the hearing. I mean, it's a little further than that, but yeah,
Veronica: We're already having a pissing match about service again.
1852media: but Kevin, Kevin gets removed in like two seconds.
Veronica: Yeah, like like, luckiest man involved in this case right now is Kevin.
1852media: I know. But the court is just basically like, what what the fuck are you doing? Like, I don't have jurisdiction on that. Like, you want to go fight that?
Veronica: Yeah, this is this is not an issue I can hear. this This is not a thing I can decide.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: I do not have any sort of jurisdiction over this man or his petition to remove the registration, to cancel the registration, like get him out of here.
1852media: Yeah. He literally said, the court says, I'm not going to say proceedings before the evidence.
Veronica: And so they do.
1852media: You go ahead. what Whoever wants to wants to go and do whatever you wanted to go do there. It's not my jurisdiction. You go ahead. I'm not staying. And the attorney for Felina says, certainly your honor.
1852media: And the court says, how could you bring in the person who filed it? And Felina's attorney says, we believe because he filed a petition without standing. In other words, he claims in his petition. And the court says, that's the defense you make there.
1852media: It is not going to be a reason to bring in somebody else.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah.
1852media: And then they say, OK.
Veronica: here's Here's a defense we can file in the USPTO courts, right? But like, ah we're just gonna ask you, random federal district court judge, to go ahead and deal with this for us, even though completely completely outside of your constitutional purview.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: So like on page six of the transcript, it's, uh, okay, Your Honor, we'll withdraw that to Mr.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Nupper and the court says he's out of the case, like Mr. Nuppers out of the case. So page six, he's out of the case. So his attorneys that have appeared and actually who helped prepare some of this stuff and we're planning to argue now can't speak.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: They're now out of the case. And that actually becomes it.
Veronica: Yeah, their client's done. they have like They literally have no more dogs in the fight, so to speak.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Right. But it actually became a little bit of a problem, I think, because he did prepare a lot of this. And then one of the other attorneys had to step up and do the argument.
Veronica: hu
1852media: And she wasn't as prepared. Not that she did a bad job.
Veronica: This is Tara's attorney, right?
1852media: I thought she did a fine job. But you could tell like she was not yeah she was not as prepared or necessarily was the one that was planning to speak on behalf of everybody.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Right, right.
1852media: um But yeah, the judge basically is like, what what are you doing about this service thing? he makes The judge is like, you know um are you going the attorneys are here.
1852media: like Basically, they get through the whole like service stuff. And then the judge is like, well, you're here.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Can you accept a a service on behalf of your client?
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And most of them are, you know, Jen's attorney was like, yeah, you know, I can. And Tara's attorney, I understand why they were hesitant because Tara's in Canada and there's potentially a jurisdiction issue there of her being even.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: So if the attorneys accept service, they're essentially saying that like, we're good to go.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Like we're sort of waving that, right?
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: So there was a a potential, it wasn't them being assholes. It was them trying to see if, you know, yeah.
Veronica: No, she eventually capitulates to it and agrees to accept service on Tara's behalf. But I think the reluctance to do so, to your point, is about the requirement to get things procedurally correct, right?
Veronica: So when you're thinking about how you're going to prosecute or defend any sort of litigation, at least on the civil side, every single step is an opportunity for you to preserve some sort of appealable issue.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: In case you lose, you can go to the next court and say, hey, we shouldn't have lost because of all of these things that happened in the lower court. And it starts with service to process. And with an international defendant, you know and that's that's a complication that you know maybe as a fuck you to Felina and her attorneys, you want to force them to go out of their way to figure out how to serve this person who is across an international border.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: um
1852media: Because there are extra steps.
Veronica: you know
1852media: I've had to serve somebody internationally before. It is not super easy.
Veronica: I believe that. That's an experience I never had, but I'm sure it's very complicated.
1852media: It is very complicated.
Veronica: and
1852media: You have to contact the appropriate and law enforcement you know people over there.
Veronica: Mm -hmm.
1852media: You have to make sure that you have the right people. yeah Everything has to be certified. like it is not
Veronica: Oh, God. So we're getting like the RCMP involved now. We got the guys in they're red the red suits with their, you know.
1852media: depending upon where you are, right? Like, so different countries may have different requirements.
Veronica: Yeah, right. Yeah.
1852media: They have to sign off on different things. It's a whole thing. it is So I can understand why her attorneys are like, I don't really want to make it that easy for you.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: You have not made it.
Veronica: I'm not obligated to do that.
1852media: Just remember, yeah.
Veronica: I'm not obligated.
1852media: i Yeah.
Veronica: The rules say you have to do this. And since you're filing lawsuits on a Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend, maybe maybe we just say, fuck you right back.
1852media: That's my point, right?
Veronica: And we force you to find a way to execute service in Canada. Like, get bent.
1852media: Yeah, ah right. So like, you're not doing us any favors. Why am I gonna do you a favor and just accept service?
Veronica: Exactly.
1852media: So it was not so much like, I give the same energy as I get.
Veronica: Exactly.
1852media: And so that's, yeah.
Veronica: Girl same.
1852media: So that's the energy that they were they were having there. They were like, they were matching energy and they were just like, yeah, we're not gonna make this simple.
Veronica: Yeah. Mm hmm. Right.
1852media: But so we get through all that and the court's like, well, you're here. All right, you have noticed for this hearing, like let's start talking about this. So jen's Jennifer's attorney is like, we have she has nothing to do with this.
1852media: Because Kevin, you have to remember, two seconds ago, Kevin is knocked out of this case.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Jen's attorney speaks up and is like, hey, I would also like for my client to not be here because my client shouldn't have to be here.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Court does not agree.
Veronica: my My client is a publicist and a publicist only and is not responsible for any of the actual infringement if there has in fact been some sort of infringement.
1852media: Right. What drove me batty was this court said, as a publicist, she has a responsibility not to inffriend infringe. If this is a protectable mark, she infringed on it.
1852media: Sir, no.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: No, that is not accurate. I respectfully disagree.
Veronica: I dissent.
1852media: um What?
Veronica: I said, I dissent.
1852media: Oh yeah, 100%.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: I also don't think that that if that would have gotten to that far, I do not think that that would have held up as a statement of of new law.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um No.
Veronica: Yeah. ah In some situation where we end up with actual case law in the Federal Register over this particular conflict, I i don't think that that stands.
1852media: because you
1852media: No, there's no way because as a publicist, you don't have knowledge of where your clients are getting certain things from. You are literally engaged to perform a specific task, which is you know outreach or creating graphics or you know whatever.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah.
1852media: You're helping with the marketing of the book. You have absolutely no control over the creation of it.
Veronica: ah You were connecting the publishers of the book.
1852media: you
Veronica: it In this case, a a group of authors who've gotten together to do it with media and influencers and you are coordinating press releases and other promotional postings online or advertising.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: And ah in no way, shape or form does any of that relate back to the generation of the content itself or how it might or might not relate to someone else's intellectual property protections.
1852media: Right.
1852media: Right. I just thought that was absolutely wild of him to make that statement.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And yeah, I did not think it would hold up. i also That is also, though, why we have a clause in our contracts that basically is indemnifies us for any sort of thing like that.
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: And if people want to know why does that exist?
Veronica: i Yeah.
1852media: Because a judge said that in a real thing. And we saw that and said, oh, hell no.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: We need to protect ourselves just in case.
Veronica: Absolutely.
1852media: um
Veronica: And and it it goes deeper than that too. I mean, we we've had a handful of experiences over the years where authors have misrepresented the nature of their work or ah there other things associated to their businesses.
1852media: Yeah?
Veronica: um We want nothing to do with being on the hook for that.
1852media: Yeah. We only know what you tell us. And if you are misrepresenting something as an author, how are we liable for that?
Veronica: Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: So we needed to ensure that we would not be dumb.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: But yeah, wild, wild. So that's that. That was my annoyance. One of my annoyances.
Veronica: one of One of many that come out of this hearing, unfortunately.
1852media: Yeah. I mean, you have to remember the court is not in romance, Landia. The the judge is not reading.
Veronica: Maybe he should be.
1852media: Maybe he should be. I agree. But unfortunately, and I've seen a variety of these cases, oftentimes the court is not well versed in the community um in publishing.
Veronica: So, yes, especially self -publishing, indie publishing.
1852media: um especially self -publishing, they're used to, when they have publishing issues, it's usually between publishers, larger publishers, and they when they dabble in this stuff, um they sometimes can't see the forest from the trees, and it can get very frustrating.
Veronica: yeah
1852media: um Anyway, next thing up, they eventually decide that Tara's name will be submitted under seal because
Veronica: Yes, yeah, they're they're going to disclose her true identity and keep it out of the public record of the lawsuit.
1852media: You know?
1852media: Yeah. So then they start talking about the trademark itself. And the court asks the question that is on everyone's mind, how can you trademark the word cocky?
1852media: Sir, we are wondering.
Veronica: Oh, inducing my male prowess vomit response.
1852media: um Oh, my God. Yeah. So, you know, he goes into the hole. It identifies the book. It's a source identifier, which is a buzzword that you need to say.
Veronica: Okay.
1852media: Like, that's the whole thing.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um And they go back and forth in regard to this. And then, you know, they're talking about if I was buying a book.
Veronica: But there's this whole discussion between about, like, Cocker brothers, Cocker family versus the use of the word cocky, right? Like, and and distinguishing the the the very knife -edged thin line on which the argument between the parties really exists, so right?
1852media: Yeah, yeah.
1852media: Right. Yeah.
Veronica: Yeah. yeah
1852media: When they talk about, you know, how cocky, so for example, one of the book titles is cocky Mother's Day, and how Mother's Day is obvious.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: I know. Mother's Day is obviously a descriptor of the content of the books. It's about Mother's Day.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And cocky is arguably, they're also a descriptive of the book about the male prowess of you know whatever.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And the court is really confused as to how you can have a cocky Mother's Day. um And so thus,
Veronica: Yes. The court does not understand romance readers.
1852media: Correct, correct, and that's very obvious. but um Yeah. So they're they're talking about the differences between an adjective and a title versus a trademark source identifier.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Like if you were to say the Twilight series, for example.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: But this is why titles cannot be trademarked because titles are essentially adjectives or descriptive of the contents of the books.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: They are not source identifiers of a specific thing.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: um They also talk about how on the cover, the main identifier is the author's name and how that is a big you know thing.
Veronica: Mmhmm.
1852media: The court then goes and he said he's looking at the Polaroid factors, which is what he's looking at during this hearing.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Mmhmm.
1852media: And Polaroid is a name of a case. And he says, it seems to me at this stage in litigation, it's a weak mark at best.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: So you know that we're looking up. We're looking up. We still have another 20 pages worth of hearing, but things are looking up.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: That's because lawyers love to talk.
1852media: um Right.
Veronica: as is evidence about this podcast.
1852media: um
1852media: ah True. I did love that they handed him up the cocktails book.
Veronica: Oh my God. Yes.
1852media: They handed him up a copy of the paperback of cocktails, and he the judge says, I am not going to keep the book.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: any the The dirty says, that's quite all right. And the court says, I'll consider the title. Do you have a you know do you have a color picture? And then he starts talking about this is a deliberate parody, um et cetera, et cetera.
1852media: Oh, one funny thing. Don't make jokes, by the way, to a federal court judge. They don't land. No one's going to laugh.
Veronica: You you like have to really know the judge. like like Like you're members of the same bench and bar social organization, or you've appeared before this judge like a lot.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Because the attorney, yeah.
Veronica: but there's a reason there There's a reason the idiom is sober as a judge, right? like
1852media: The attorney for Terra, basically, they were talking about the cock the the titles.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Cocky Doctor was one of them.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And she makes like
Veronica: Her cocky firefighters.
1852media: Yeah. And she makes this, they're describing, they're literally describing what that is on the cover of these books.
Veronica: Uh -huh. Yeah.
1852media: And her attorney basically says like, well, he doesn't look like my doctor. And I can only imagine the crickets that were in the courtroom.
Veronica: Well, and she's the only female in the it speaking in this hearing, right?
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: The other attorneys are men and the judge is a man.
1852media: Yeah. And it did not land. The joke did not land.
Veronica: Oh my God.
1852media: um They just moved on to something else. It was it was cringy as I read that.
Veronica: a What, what?
1852media: It really was. um i i was a The other thing is that one of the issues in the test is confusion.
Veronica: Oh, yes.
1852media: okay
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: and
Veronica: yeah how like How likely are consumers to be confused by the the alleged infringing product?
1852media: Yeah, so Felina had put forth these three like screenshots of these like three alleged instances of confusion, supposed confusion between her books and some other book.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And the only one that had a title in it was Cocky Chef, right? That you know the someone was confusing Cocky Chef with that Felina had written it.
1852media: and Then Tara's attorneys are like, well, cocky chefs isn't my client. My client has never written cocky chefs.
1852media: So like none of these alleged instances of confusion are even related to my client's books.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: And you know it's not even clear what these people were confused about. And so the court's like, if it relates to someone else that has published a book with the title cocky in it, and um their attorneys are like, well, that party's not here.
1852media: And the court's like, well, Felina's attorney, like, how do we know this refers to the defendant's books?
Veronica: Right. like I'm done.
1852media: And the attorney has to admit, Your Honor, I can't represent to the court that we can make the connection to these three defendants. So basically has to admit that there might be no,
Veronica: I never show up in that judge's courtroom again. I'm sorry. like that you could not There is no amount of of fringe benefits, salary or partnership, equity, nothing that could make me set foot in that man's courtroom again after having to say that out loud as part of the argument on the record.
1852media: no,
1852media: No.
Veronica: Oh my God.
1852media: That yeah, people are confused, but not with these defendants because the Oh my god, I was so mortified. I was like, Oh, yeah.
Veronica: I know. but the The cringe, right? like o No. No.
1852media: Yeah. Yes. So the court's like, they're not in the case.
Veronica: No.
1852media: And, uh, Felina's attorney says they are not in the case, Your Honor. That's correct. So the court says, I can't.
Veronica: why Why not, Felina's attorney? Why not?
1852media: Why not?
Veronica: you're You're literally using them as evidence in support of your claim against these other people. So why aren't these people in the lawsuit too?
1852media: Right. um And so the court says I can't credit this as indicating actual confusion. The other instance that is mentioned is a reference on a webpage or criticism.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: It's unreliable. No one knows who place it placed it.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: No one knows who sent it nor the purpose. um
Veronica: Anonymous hearsay more than anything else.
1852media: Yeah. So then they go into sort of the title and the layout and they're trying to say that Tara is, ah was acting in bad faith because of how she presented the title on her book.
Veronica: Block font.
1852media: Yeah. And what's really annoying is that, and the court, the Tara's attorneys try to bring this up and they're like, that's literally just how romance books look. Like that this is just how it is.
Veronica: Yeah. You just go to Amazon Kindle and just take a survey of every romance novel in the top like 500.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: But the court doesn't really understand that. um they They don't really get that.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: So that was frustrating. and But the court does find that they're going that the issue can't be resolved on a preliminary injunction, that there needs to be more facts, that there needs to be more information.
Veronica: Yes, there needs to be discovery. There needs to be an answer to the complaint.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Like the the Felina is not entitled to stop anybody from doing anything. If actually what I really appreciated about the analysis by the court was that if anything, actually granting the injunction would hurt Tara.
1852media: Right, because she would be forced to change everything.
Veronica: you know in a way that Tara could not be made whole for after the fact.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Whereas the harm alleged to be happening to Folina can actually be compensated appropriately through damages, through an actual mathematical calculation at some point in the litigation process.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: And so the court decides correctly, in my opinion, that it's best not to harm Tara in a way that can't be
1852media: I agree.
Veronica: repaired and to risk harming Felina in a way that can be repaired by not granting the injunction.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: So, um, yeah, I think so too.
1852media: No, it was the right move. It was the right move on that.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: I like did the other funny quotes from this hearing and then we'll move on because obviously we could, there's this moments. They're talking about the quality is one of the factors, excuse me.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: And um the attorney for terror says, I think this is a neutral factor. Oh, sorry. Before that, ah the court says seventh is the seventh factor that we're looking at is the quality of defendant's product as compared to plaintiffs. They are pretty much the same, aren't they? And Felina's attorney says, Your Honor, I would say that my client has 600 ,000 books sold as of today's date or approximately 600 ,000. And the court says that doesn't prove quality.
Veronica: That paired with the other thing the court said about romance books in general is like, it is just so stereotypical, like, snooty old dude.
1852media: i right I was just like, what the fuck, bro? Yeah. He said that, yeah, the the court then says that the readers here is very specific to the genre books, which I would call cheap romance novels.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And so know what is going on and are not fooled particularly. So like, he calls them intelligent, but also insults them in the same sentence. It was...
Veronica: Well, yeah, so, okay, but like as a matter of actual fact, Felina was charging $2 .99 in ebook at this point in time, right?
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: It's 2017, 2018, and that's kind of what the market commanded at that time.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: That was a very conventional price point.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: um I think it's a fucking steal if I'm being perfectly honest, even then it was a steal. But 600 ,000 copies at $2 .99 minus a 30 % a royalty split with Amazon, assuming we're exclusive.
1852media: yeah
Veronica: You're talking about, what, like over a million still.
1852media: Yeah, still still good money to be had.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um but so And so it's very possible that the court was looking at it from a price point wise, but it just coupled with other things.
Veronica: yeah
1852media: I don't know. I didn't get a stone from the transcript.
Veronica: No. it it It harkens back to the days when, and and this still happens now as well, ah because it's something that women enjoy.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Society has less use or tolerance for it and is all too happy to thumb the nose or look down on because it's a woman's interest kind of thing.
1852media: Correct.
1852media: Yeah, 100%.
Veronica: So cheap romance novels.
1852media: Yeah. So the hearing is done. The temporary restraining order is no more. Now we are just in the regular case.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: So now the the question is, are they going, so well, both attorneys who are still in it say we're going to be filing a motion to dismiss, which you do prior to an answer instead of an answer.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Yes. Yes.
1852media: um So
Veronica: Yeah, don't make that mistake. answer If you answer before moving to dismiss, you're done trying to get rid of the case.
1852media: Yeah, you're done though. You're going to have to file a motion for summary judgment, which is as a different standard.
Veronica: Yep, totally.
1852media: You don't want to do that. So you have to file a motion to dismiss, and they both say that they're going to be doing that instead of answering. So the court sets a date in which they have to do that by.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: um They do not.
Veronica: And they also set deadlines for the discovery process and talk about that being an expedited thing rather than taking the usual amount of time.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: um Yeah, we're in the procedural weeds at this point, right?
1852media: Correct. But instead of filing a motion to dismiss or an answer, um the court, we go back to letter wars.
Veronica: We get letter practice again.
1852media: Yeah. um We're now in July, so the time frame has passed for filing a motion to dismiss.
Veronica: if Yes. Yes. Yeah. we We have the hearing the first day of June and the order denying the the injunction is docketed like the fifth day of June.
Veronica: And then we get into the weeds on this letters, the letter exchange.
1852media: Yeah. Well, so they would have they would have had to file a motion to dismiss on June 22nd for the court's order.
Veronica: um
Veronica: Yes. Yes.
1852media: Right. So there was a letter to the court on June 22nd on that day saying that settlement had been reached and they were working out the deal.
Veronica: That's right.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: Which basically, you know, tells the court this is why you're not getting motions to dismiss. And should settlement fall apart, likely the court would have allowed for motion to dismiss to be filed.
Veronica: Right. Absolutely.
1852media: um But
Veronica: Although, again, maybe procedural discrepancies from one district to the next. I'm still unclear on why one would not go ahead and file the motion to dismiss and then just continue with the settlement proceedings and then file a notice of voluntary dismissal once the settlement has been reduced to writing and everyone's bound to the terms.
1852media: hundred percent
Veronica: Like, that's what I was thinking.
1852media: Usually that's what happened. So that's why I was a little surprised here that that did not happen.
Veronica: Well, you know, apparently the Southern District is Narnia and you can just, instead of doing motion practice, write letters to the court all day and litigate your case on letterhead.
1852media: um Because you want to.
1852media: Yeah, evidently so. um So Felina's attorney on July 12th writes a letter to the court and says that a you know it appeared that a settlement had been reached.
1852media: While that's still the case, finalizing a stipulation of settlement seems not to be possible. So he's now asking that the case be restored so that you know we can we can proceed.
Veronica: Yes. We got so close, we got so close, Judge, but we just couldn't get it done. Can we reopen the case?
1852media: Yeah. So then same day, another letter. This time from the firm representing Tara Crescent and Jennifer Watson.
1852media: So now they they've now consolidated attorneys.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: that There's been a little shuffle shuffle.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: um So the original settlement contained five essential terms, right? It was outlined in an email exchange.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um The defendants alleged that Folina expressly accept these terms and authorize the defendants to advise the court of the settlement in principle, rather than have the defendants file counterclaims and a motion to dismiss.
1852media: The next day, and for an unknown number of days thereafter, plaintiff breached one of the terms before plaintiff's counsel left the country for a one -week vacation. Upon plaintiff's counsel's return, defendants sought to resolve the breach as well as finalize settlement.
1852media: Plaintiffs have further resisted all reasonable efforts to finalize settlement and provide relief against further breaches. Defendants respectfully request judicial intervention to, among other things, enforce the terms of the settlement.
1852media: And they go on, yes.
Veronica: This is what we call poor client control on Felina's attorney's part, right? Like, ah I assume, and I could, of course, I'm taking a big risk by doing that, right?
1852media: yeah
1852media: Mm hmm.
Veronica: And I could wind up showing my whole ass here, but I assume No one explained to her that what she did the day after they reached the settlement agreement would be a violation of the settlement agreement because why else would she have done it?
1852media: Right. and You would think, I don't know. So well then defense counsel, they continue on and they say, well, we'll talk about what she did. But defense counsel says that they've been unly unable to meet and confer with Tara's attorneys because um despite his filing with the court that day, um that day he told defense counsel that he was upstate with limited phone coverage.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: And just so that he, while he was happy to settle along original terms, um he, you know, right.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Does not have the technological access that's required to actually finalize it. So it it's like it's what I imagine having more than one child is like when they're arguing about so like, honestly, you know.
1852media: Yeah, this is really like mommy, mommy, this is, you know, he came for me.
Veronica: He kicked me, she hit me, yeah, like.
1852media: Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica: it's it It's really petulance is what it is.
1852media: So, Felina's attorney writes back. Same day, another letter basically saying there are numerous inaccuracies and omissions, most importantly, defense counsel made it very clear that plaintiffs agreed to undiscussed and inequitable terms.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: For example, gag orders running solely to the benefits of defendants as well as a non -disparagement and gag order running to the benefit of the Cocktails Collective, a non -party, and that no settlement would be attainable his exact words where the remaining issue is still a deal breaker. So basically if they, if she didn't agree to that, that it would be a deal breaker.
1852media: um And that he was adamant if settlement under his terms couldn't be reached, he would be filing a very aggressive motion to dismiss and other third parties would seek to plead. You know, obviously. And then he says that to address his other points, plaintiffs haven't breached any of the theoretical settlement terms.
1852media: um Then he says that while I was away in Central Asia on an urgent family matter, not a vacation, I did inform imp opposing counsel that I could be reached by email, but my ability to make calls would be limited.
1852media: Like who gives a shit? Like this is this is literally mommy and daddy shit, right?
Veronica: hu
1852media: um And he also says,
Veronica: this This is asking a judge to make decisions about the lack of love like the lack of standard level of professionalism here between these attorneys.
1852media: Yeah. but
Veronica: This is shit that does not have any sort of bearing on the outcome of the case. It's like, let me just make you look as bad as I can to the judge. Oh, OK, thanks for throwing me under the bus.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Now I'm going to throw you under the bus. And it's it's just a nonstop finger pointing
1852media: Yeah, it's going back and forth like, you know, oh, we've been infrequent and meaningful and productive and dare I say friendly settlement negotiation since the first court hearing. Oh, come on, bro. Come on.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: um Anyway, so and then he says that I am in the mountains, a geographical location I prefer over the city with limit if any cellular service and I do not have a house phone.
Veronica: I loved that.
1852media: That's why I can't talk on the phone.
Veronica: yeah yeah but Still got a paralegal in the city filing all this paperwork for him though.
1852media: Okay, so then there's another letter.
1852media: Yeah, yeah, email works just fine.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: So there's another letter from the defendants this time, um when they basically blast him for putting their settlement negotiations in writing in the record.
Veronica: The record. Yeah. Yeah.
1852media: And the fifth
Veronica: That's usually a big no -no.
1852media: Yeah, the fifth and final term of the settlement agreement, because this is the only time we're ever going to find out what's in the settlement agreement, right? Like, because that's usually not, well, you would think, um that's usually not something that you ever see, though, in court cases, you just see that it's settled, you don't know what's
Veronica: I mean.
Veronica: Yes. Yes. Almost always they're confidential. Almost always.
1852media: Yeah. So the fact that we actually find out what's in the settlement agreement here is like interesting.
Veronica: Yeah. yes
1852media: So the term that's at issue here is that the parties will execute a written agreement that in addition to the usual boilerplate provides for general releases and non -disparagement provisions for Felina, Tara, Kevin, and Jennifer.
1852media: That's standard. I don't know what the big deal is about this. um The issue though that defendants take and I'm like, why are they so mad? Because there's actually really good reason because the day after that settlement took place, like that the initial agreement was made, that was on a Friday.
Veronica: really good reason actually.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: um on saturday On Saturday, she gives an interview to the Daily Mail
Veronica: Bad things happen on Fridays.
Veronica: Uh -huh.
1852media: um and talks about the entire case.
Veronica: Mm -hmm.
1852media: And she asked...
Veronica: About how Tara, Tara and Jen in the Cocky Collective and Kevin were all out to get her.
1852media: Yeah. um it was She said it was a deliberate attack against her. So, you know, like, and done in malice.
Veronica: Yes.
Veronica: That sounds like disparagement to me.
1852media: I mean, I don't know about you.
Veronica: I don't know about you. Sounds like disparagement to me.
1852media: She then releases in the article more information about what are the terms of the settlement agreement. So we know that this happened after the settlement agreement was reached because she tells us what was in there, which was that neither side will pay either any money and that Hopkins will give up her trademark in a gesture of good faith and Tara, present, will change her book covers to an all block font.
Veronica: you
Veronica: client control is like so important when you litigate.
1852media: Unbelievable.
Veronica: i
1852media: I can't cannot express it enough. um So then the, since then Felina's attorney is super mad that they put issue, like some of this stuff in writing and asked for it to be stricken from the record.
1852media: It, by the way, it wasn't. um So yeah.
Veronica: It doesn't matter anyway.
1852media: So the court then on, I don't know what date this was, 717. So this is like five days later.
Veronica: Yes. Yes.
1852media: The court, it doesn't even like write an order. He writes, and you can see, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it up here. This is the court's order right here.
1852media: If you can hand write a note.
Veronica: Handwritten note on the printout. Yeah.
1852media: of one of the letterheads. And it says, I'm going to work on this, by July 27th, 2018, defendant shall something that a binding and enforceable contract was made. A plaintiff shall have until August 3rd, 2018 to oppose. So I guess shall File shall plead shall...
1852media: i'm um I'm unclear what that scribble is. I'm usually really good with the county scribble, but...
Veronica: that This is why we usually have an actual proper typed up order of some kind.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Like the the casualness with which these papers are filed on this docket is just boom.
1852media: So crazy.
Veronica: I mean, my mind is blown.
1852media: It's... Yeah. It's wild. So then on July 19th,
Veronica: but you And you can't even read the whole order because it's handwritten. Like, 19, 1918, not 2018.
1852media: yeah i know
Veronica: Like, come on now.
1852media: It's crazy. So there's a couple more things that they weren't really relevant. And then on July 23rd, the final, final piece of this case, Felina's attorney writes and says, I'm happy to inform the court that the parties have executed a settlement agreement.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: As such, I would draw my motion dismissed without prejudice and now request dismissal with prejudice. Defendants do not oppose this motion. And the court grants that.
1852media: In another little hand right knee, handwritten thing down there.
Veronica: wild.
1852media: Wild. So then what happened was per the terms of the agreement that we know now because they told us.
Veronica: They were fully disclosed by someone to the media.
1852media: in Yeah, Felina withdrew her trademarks.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: ah Tara changed the cover of her books and press the font.
Veronica: Just the thought though, right?
1852media: Yeah, I think it was just the font. and um that That was all she wrote. And we didn't hear from, to, Felina, you know, kept publishing books and she is under Felina Hopkins on Amazon.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: You can go and download her books.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: You can see them.
Veronica: Has published in the Cocker Brothers series as recently as last month, actually.
1852media: Yes.
Veronica: So those books are still alive and well, and she's still writing them.
1852media: um She did appear back in the news in, um
Veronica: Oh, yeah.
1852media: in twenty twenty three in early 2023.
Veronica: That's right.
1852media: Yeah, she had two incidents um in which she had, it looks like a mental health crisis.
Veronica: Probably. Yeah.
1852media: Um, and I think one was January 27th. Oh yeah, both cases occurred the same day, January 27th. Uh, the first incidents happened at Yellowstone park at 9 52 AM when park dispatchers received a call that Hopkins car was stuck in the snow in a closed area.
1852media: Um, and officers went to site her for driving in an area that was meant only for over snow vehicles, such as like snowmobiles and slides and stuff.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: Um, so the park ranger, she goes stuck. So the park rangers towed her vehicle behind a, um, snow groomer, which they allege was a significant effort on the park services part, which let's be honest. That's true. I mean, normally you would have to call a tow truck and stuff. So the.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: The fact that Park Rangers did that you know was kind. um And then the second case occurred 90 minutes later in Grand Teton National Park when Rangers saw her parked in a road at Jackson Lake Junction and contacted her to move her car. She fled for 24 miles, reaching speeds of 90 miles per hour as Rangers pursued.
1852media: um she She led them on a high speed chase. And they ultimately blocked off the highway and deployed spike strips to deflate her tires north of Moose. um Officers said on the scene that they found no evidence of substance abuse or mental illness.
1852media: um you know Who knows? and so um
Veronica: I mean, and some some people hide their substance abuse and or their mental illness very well.
1852media: Right, exactly. um Hopkins said that she thought that the road closed sign between Grand Teton and Yellowstone referred to only an evening closure and um she was unprepared for the snowstorm.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um She's from California and she wasn't used to it and all of that.
Veronica: What's she doing in the Rockies in January then?
1852media: um
1852media: i It was unclear why she was there. um She was praying
Veronica: Because that's as big as big as the mountains get. like The Grand Tetons, there're like that that's the American Rocky Mountains. you know like California girl.
1852media: So she was, yeah, she was preying on her hands and knees outside of her car when she was found and like when she was approached by the ranger.
Veronica: OK.
1852media: um So I don't know. I don't know.
Veronica: in some kind of crisis, personal or otherwise mental health, some some sort of issue, right?
1852media: Correct.
Veronica: Like she's having a very bad day.
1852media: very bad day. um She spent four days in jail. I mean, they because they were not pleased with her, you know, she didn't want a high speed chase.
Veronica: Well, I mean, she took him on a high speed chase.
1852media: um And her sister said that she was having some mental breakdowns, right?
Veronica: Okay.
1852media: um And so that's what it looks like. That's what was happening. Then she got out of jail.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: from that incident and then went missing for two weeks.
Veronica: See, this is what I remember. I remember there being a call on social media about not like her sister being just absolutely in a panic because they couldn't find her and they hadn't heard from her.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Her phone was either off or she wasn't answering it or something.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Like they just, right.
1852media: They couldn't find her. And I do want to say, to the credit of romance landia, people did not make jokes. People took this very seriously. People wished for her safe return.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: People were not mean and malicious.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: They were actually like, have you seen Felina?
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Or like, do you know how to get in contact with her?
Veronica: Right. Like, yeah.
1852media: Like, it was right.
Veronica: Do you guys remember Felina? Like, if you haven't been reading her all these years, I think most of us recall the cocky gate thing. Well, she's in trouble. We need to come together and find her. Like, yeah.
1852media: Yeah, it was actually very heartwarming to see. And a reason why this community is not atrocious, they hold people accountable for their actions, but at the same time, they they don't wish ill will, right?
Veronica: Yeah, super supportive, lift each other up, come together, I mean, for all kinds of things.
1852media: Like, yeah.
1852media: Yeah. And that that was my recollection of that time.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um She was then found, they they found her in Hawaii. So,
Veronica: A big change from from Wyoming and Montana.
1852media: Yeah, she left her vehicle and her dog behind. So that's why like people were really concerned.
Veronica: She left a dog behind?
1852media: And they could not. She left her dog behind. um Yeah.
Veronica: That's heartbreaking.
1852media: So her family did go, you know her family did take care of the dog and and all of that.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: But I know.
Veronica: Right. But still, like, you know, I mean, what it doesn't matter. We're not here to speculate on what somebody is going through. But like, gosh, you feel for somebody who who needs to just like whatever that was.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: leave.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: Wow.
1852media: So she was located in Hawaii after they were able to use cell phone tracking apparently eventually. I think she had it off for a while and then she probably turned it back on.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: They were able to ping it. So, excuse me, in December of 2023, she pled no contest to three misdemeanor charges of eluding a police officer, unsafe operation of a motor vehicle, and having a vehicle where only over snow vehicles are permitted.
1852media: She was fined $2 ,340 in restitution and was to be put on unsupervised probation until those fines are paid. So all in all, not a bad, you know, that's a,
Veronica: That's a ah very mild slap on the wrist for everything that went down.
1852media: Very mild. Yeah, I have to think that the court realized that there were other factors in play.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: She was going through something. Yeah.
1852media: Yeah, because that was, you know, out yeah.
Veronica: a Atypical behavior on her. Partisanally, she had a long standing history of being on the law's radar, so to speak.
1852media: Right. And it appears that she is still publishing, as Veronica said.
Veronica: yeah Yep.
1852media: So she's publishing books as recently as August of last month.
Veronica: Yep.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: And they have great reviews. um you know She has fallen, I don't want to say like, she's not she's not as engaged in romance landia anymore, I would say.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Yeah, take maybe has taken a step back in terms of being front and center with other top brands and authors.
1852media: you know Yeah.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: I think she got some bad business advice and she ran with it because she thought that she was doing something in in this community and that she, listen, she was selling 600 ,000 books or had sold 600 ,000 books.
Veronica: Yeah.
Veronica: Yep.
Veronica: Yep.
1852media: She felt that she was rising to be a ah bigger named author, right? And she thought that she was going to protect herself like others do, got some bad advice.
1852media: And in instead of, for whatever reason, instead of realizing that, oh, maybe this isn't the best move and getting different advice, um that she doubled down and tried to take it as far as she could and alienated a lot of people along the way.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: um
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: And it's sad, it's sad. I mean, and that's the thing. You gotta be careful who you take advice from and don't be afraid to listen to the other side and other opinions.
Veronica: For sure. Get a second opinion.
1852media: Yeah. And if literally the entire community is rising up against you, maybe question if you are in the right, like for real.
Veronica: Like for real.
1852media: And like, even if you legally are in the right, which she wasn't, but even if even if by chance she was, is it in your best interest to do something that's so alienating within the community that doesn't benefit the community as a whole when you're trying to be this, you know, this person.
Veronica: Yeah, for sure.
1852media: But that is the story of Cockygate.
Veronica: What a story it is too.
1852media: and all it's, I know. And we did this in total between the two episodes and two hours, right?
Veronica: Not bad.
1852media: That apparently seems to be our timeframe for discussing cases.
Veronica: Not bad.
1852media: Not bad at all because we lived this over several months timeframe ah timef frameme and it was it was a thing.
Veronica: Oh, Lord. Yeah. It was it was a riot in real time, but it's ah very interesting to reminisce and revisit.
1852media: It is and it brings up really interesting issues of trademark. And you can start to see how like in the PIPA case, there was a very clear, you know, a trademark issue there.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: They were stewing the correct defendant, number one, who had allegedly infringed upon
Veronica: Absolutely.
1852media: Pippa Grant's mark. Whereas here, they were suing you know three different people, only one of which had had actually potentially even maybe a lead or infringed and then couldn't provide the exact proof of where the infringement even occurred.
1852media: So it was, or where the confusion occurred or any of that. So you just really need to have these cases tighten up.
Veronica: yes
1852media: And when you start to stack them next to each other, it's you know you start to see
Veronica: You can see the disparity between the two.
1852media: Right.
Veronica: I mean, the right.
1852media: Why one wins, why one doesn't.
Veronica: Right.
1852media: Yeah.
Veronica: I mean, how much tighter and and ah how the facts supported Pippa's case way better than the floppy, I guess, allegations here in Felita's case.
1852media: Yeah.
1852media: Absolutely.
Veronica: Just a night and night and day difference for sure.
1852media: Total, total difference.
Veronica: Yeah.
1852media: So. Oh, so I'll take a breath.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: And we will find a new case to talk about next week.
Veronica: like Yes. well we'll We'll let go of Cockygate and find something else scandalous to talk about next week.
1852media: Yes. We wish you all peace. We wish everyone peace and happiness and all parties involved. Hopefully you've moved on from this and are feeling better about life now.
Veronica: Yes.
1852media: um and Because at the end of the day, we're all just trying to to do the thing, right?
Veronica: Yeah, now Kevin and Jennifer and Tara have a really awesome party story to tell.
1852media: That is true. That is true. Remember that time.
1852media: And until next time, this is for book's sake.
