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S2 Ep33: Things Not to Do as An Author - The PIPPA lawsuit
33 Plays8 months ago
Heather and Veronica discuss and provide their opinions on the recent lawsuit relating to the Pippa Grant v. Pippa Green pen names. They break down the issues, provide you with context and - as always - provide their opinions on the filings and rulings of the case.
Heather and Veronica are both attorneys, but are not your attorneys. This is not legal advice. Opinions are their own and are for entertainment, and commentary purposes only.
A podcast from 1852 Media.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to For Books Sake Podcast
00:00:10
1852media
Hello, hello, and welcome to For Books Sake. I am Heather Roberts.
00:00:15
Veronica Adams
I am Veronica Adams and we are 1852 Media.
00:00:19
1852media
Yes, and today we are talking about more legal and publishing issues.
Heather's Document Reading Habit
00:00:27
Veronica Adams
Yes, we are putting those lawyer hats back on.
00:00:27
1852media
um Yeah, so this is this is what we're doing today. This is what I was printing out.
00:00:34
Veronica Adams
She printed it Oh my God.
00:00:37
1852media
I printed out. I need to highlight my friends. I need to i read everything and I highlight.
00:00:41
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yeah. yeah
00:00:44
1852media
and It's just how law school for me was and, you know.
00:00:49
Veronica Adams
Oh, come on, like you weren't doing that in undergrad too.
00:00:53
1852media
Well, yeah, ah but I'm just saying specifically, I was not of the digital era ah during.
00:00:53
Veronica Adams
Don't blame it on law school.
00:00:59
Veronica Adams
No, that's true. We are dinosaurs. We were in that transitionary phase where a lot of our post-secondary education was still you know ink and paper.
00:01:01
1852media
Yeah.
00:01:08
1852media
Yeah. And so it just, I don't know, the the paper to me, I recycle it all, it goes back into, you know, so we're okay.
00:01:13
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:01:17
Veronica Adams
Yep, yeah yep, yep, yep.
Disclaimer: Entertainment, Not Legal Advice
00:01:19
1852media
But as a disclaimer from the beginning, all of this is our opinion. This is for entertainment purposes only.
00:01:27
Veronica Adams
Yes, this is not legal advice.
00:01:29
1852media
This is not legal advice. Veronica and I are both licensed attorneys. We are not your attorneys.
00:01:32
Veronica Adams
We are.
00:01:34
1852media
So if there is an issue in this episode that you relate to, we highly recommend you seek counsel in your state of record.
00:01:34
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:01:38
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. but That's right. we are We are no longer anybody's lawyers, even though we are regrettably still lawyers.
00:01:45
1852media
That's right. yeah They're recovering its ironies.
00:01:49
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:01:50
1852media
But that means we have opinions, and you're about to hear them.
00:01:54
Veronica Adams
That's right.
00:01:54
1852media
So what are we talking about today?
Case Introduction: Bang, Laugh, Love, LLC vs. Pippa Green
00:01:56
1852media
On the docket for today's episode it is the case of Bang, Laugh, Love, LLC, versus Brea, Vera, and Monique McDonald, collectively, AKA Pippa Green.
00:02:11
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:02:12
1852media
First, Bang, Pippa,
00:02:13
Veronica Adams
Shout out to Pippa Grant for Bang, Laugh, Love, right?
00:02:16
1852media
Yeah, Bang, Laugh, Love, LLC. Massive shout out there.
00:02:21
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:02:21
1852media
That is that is Chef's Kits.
00:02:22
Veronica Adams
Great, great corporate name, great LLC name, great business entity name.
00:02:25
1852media
Love it.
00:02:27
1852media
We love it. That that was so well done, Pippa Grant.
00:02:29
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yes.
00:02:32
1852media
So Pippa Grant is the pen name of Bang, Laugh, Love, LLC.
00:02:37
Veronica Adams
That's right.
00:02:39
1852media
Bang, Laugh, Love, B-L-L, as it's called then later in the pleadings.
00:02:40
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yes.
00:02:45
1852media
Or I'm just going to call it bang because, you know, that's better.
00:02:48
Veronica Adams
Perfect.
00:02:49
1852media
Um, so
Anonymity and Respecting Pen Names
00:02:50
1852media
bang is owned by the person who writes Pippa grant.
00:02:55
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:02:56
1852media
I don't, I don't want to put out her real name. I mean, it's all throughout the documents, um, because of an issue that
00:03:00
Veronica Adams
It is.
00:03:04
1852media
people talk about. um But I don't, I don't feel the name to put the need to put that out. I had to pay, you know, $50 for these documents.
00:03:15
1852media
And I was thus privy to her real name. If you are dying to know what her real name is, you too can go on to pacer, make your own account and, and buy.
00:03:22
Veronica Adams
That's right. You just need a pacer account and a credit card. You too can find out Pippa Grant's real name.
00:03:26
1852media
Yeah.
00:03:28
1852media
I just don't, i we here we're at 1852, we understand the value of pen names. We understand the value of all of that.
00:03:34
Veronica Adams
Absolutely.
00:03:35
1852media
And there is no benefit.
00:03:36
Veronica Adams
Mad respect to the anonymity that a lot of authors prefer to conduct their business under.
00:03:39
1852media
Yes.
00:03:42
Veronica Adams
Absolutely.
00:03:42
1852media
Right. um And this was not, you know, they didn't put any sort of, um you know, gag order. They didn't do anything in this document to protect her identity, which they which they could have.
00:03:51
Veronica Adams
It wasn't redacted. Yeah.
00:03:54
1852media
um However, I'm still going to just not mention it. I know that that was a long explanation, but you'll understand as we go through, um ah we'll call her something else.
00:04:02
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yes.
00:04:06
1852media
I'll just call her Pippa. No, I can't do that.
00:04:08
Veronica Adams
No, you better not.
00:04:09
1852media
I'll call her Grant. I'll call her Grant um or something of that nature to try to make sure that we understand who's who.
00:04:14
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:04:18
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:04:18
1852media
Okay.
Brand Success of Pippa Grant
00:04:19
1852media
So think yeah, the reason I can't call her just Pippa is because here's what happened. All right. Imagine that you have written a lot of books, right?
00:04:30
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:04:30
1852media
We're talking, I think like 60, 60 books.
00:04:31
Veronica Adams
You've been publishing for five or six years at this point?
00:04:34
1852media
Yeah.
00:04:35
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:04:35
1852media
um That you have now a, you've amassed a newsletter list of over a hundred thousand subscribers.
00:04:41
Veronica Adams
Oh my God, that was one of the biggest takeaways from the pleadings for me too.
00:04:43
1852media
I know, same, same. I was like, good on ya. That was, yeah,
00:04:49
Veronica Adams
Girl knocked it out of the park. 100,000 in less than a decade. That's incredible.
00:04:54
1852media
yeah amazing.
00:04:55
Veronica Adams
what Very well done. Very well done.
00:04:57
1852media
Very well done. So yeah, you've amassed over a hundred thousand subscribers.
00:05:01
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:05:02
1852media
You have ah been on Amazon bestseller lists. You have, yeah, you have written
00:05:06
Veronica Adams
USA Today.
00:05:10
1852media
Romantic comedies, a lot of them sports romance, hockey romance, and as well as some others.
00:05:14
Veronica Adams
Yep.
00:05:17
1852media
And you've written them all under the pen name Pippa Grant.
00:05:19
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:05:22
1852media
And you've amassed this amazing following. You have 42,000 Facebook followers.
00:05:27
Veronica Adams
Mm hmm.
00:05:29
1852media
You have a group of, I think she calls them Pipsqueaks, which is adorable.
00:05:30
Veronica Adams
Yep, it is.
00:05:33
1852media
um And, i you know, you have been building this brand.
Pen Name Confusion: Pippa Green
00:05:40
1852media
And then along comes someone or someones, and they release a book that is ah written by a pen name of the name Pippa Green.
00:05:54
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:05:55
1852media
And ah the hero in the debut book from Pippa Green is named Grant.
00:06:04
Veronica Adams
and
00:06:05
1852media
And then you go and you look up who these people are that you know, created Pippa Green. And you realize that at least one of the people has promoted themselves as expert as an expert in marketing and how to basically market with a specific pen name and how to market, you know, using ah the trends um to, you know, your advantage when you're creating pen names and marketing.
00:06:26
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Right.
00:06:36
1852media
And you realize that this person is essentially trying to
Pen Name Conflict Issues
00:06:40
1852media
rip off your followers and your fans, which, okay, we're going to be very clear here.
00:06:40
Veronica Adams
Yep.
00:06:46
1852media
There is nothing, the pen name sort of crossing over happens from time to time, right?
00:06:52
Veronica Adams
Sure.
00:06:52
1852media
Like there can be some confusion from time to time.
00:06:53
Veronica Adams
Sure.
00:06:57
1852media
um, depending upon what it is, there, there was a whole, I remember there was the Jennifer Armentrout situation because there was somebody writing his Jennifer Armentrout and then Jennifer Armentrout, Jennifer L Armentrout, um, became very popular and there was a whole issue.
00:07:13
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:07:15
1852media
One of them, the other Jenny Trout is now what she goes by. um She ended up changing her name because of the the confusion. The issue there is that that those were real names.
00:07:26
1852media
Those were like government document, correct.
00:07:27
Veronica Adams
Right. And you you cannot prevent someone from using their legal name if they want to, but you you just can't stop them from doing that.
00:07:33
1852media
Yes, and you both parties ended up making some, you know, trying to figure out, like Jennifer L.
00:07:37
Veronica Adams
All right.
00:07:39
1852media
Armentrout put her initial in there trying to differentiate.
00:07:42
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:07:42
1852media
um There was a whole thing there. But this is not the case of that. Nobody's real name is Pippa Grant or Pippa Green.
00:07:48
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:07:49
1852media
Okay, these are made up names.
00:07:49
Veronica Adams
These are made up names designed to provide cover and anonymity and to be a brand that is perhaps more appealing to the romance community than someone's government name, right?
00:07:58
1852media
Yes.
00:08:00
Veronica Adams
Because like, you know, that's a thing that happens in pen names. How can we make this unique or cute or fun or sexy or, you know, suspenseful, right?
00:08:04
1852media
Yeah.
00:08:11
1852media
Yeah, and certain names have different, like, feelings to them, right?
00:08:13
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:08:14
1852media
So, you know, Pippa Grant is sort of like a cutesy name. Like, it sounds rom-com. Sounds like Pippa Grant.
00:08:20
Veronica Adams
Pippa is the perfect first name for a rom-com author for someone who writes light, sweet, not necessarily clean, but like fun, flirty romances for sure.
00:08:23
1852media
Yeah. Yes.
00:08:30
1852media
It's great. It's great. um So the thing that I thought was interesting here is that the defendant, McDonald,
Intent to Confuse: Evidence Discussion
00:08:40
1852media
had been a member of the Pippa Grant Facebook fan group, the Pipp Squad, since April 5th, 2021.
00:08:44
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yes.
00:08:47
Veronica Adams
She joined the group right before they published the first Pippa Green book.
00:08:50
1852media
Yeah. Yes. And I was like, oh, that is interesting. That that does not bode well for the defendants here.
00:08:55
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah. It's a very bad look. like you know No one has admitted to wrongdoing as far as I'm aware, okay?
00:09:02
1852media
It's the bad luck.
00:09:07
1852media
Correct, correct.
00:09:08
Veronica Adams
um But like the evidence is just so damning, right? You slide right into the reader group and start hanging out, studying the brand, you're adjacent to it, while you are also emulating it basically directly.
00:09:13
1852media
definite
00:09:23
1852media
Yeah, yeah, it was, it's not a good luck.
00:09:25
Veronica Adams
That looks like an intent to commit fraud to me.
00:09:30
1852media
yeah or an intent Yeah, it's an intent for confusion, for sure.
00:09:34
Veronica Adams
For sure, for sure.
00:09:36
1852media
so So that's basically it. Well, the one thing, okay, so PIPA grant had the foresight to trademark her name.
00:09:43
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yes, she did.
00:09:47
1852media
And um good on you. So BANG filed a trademark registration for the name, ah for the mark PIPA grant.
00:09:55
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:09:56
1852media
As part, of that application
Trademark Registration Complexities
00:10:00
1852media
process. okay In order to trademark a name right of a living person, there needs to be an affidavit filed.
00:10:01
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:10:11
1852media
I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible. okay It's pretty convoluted.
00:10:13
Veronica Adams
Yeah, it's pretty, its it's kind it's convoluted for sure.
00:10:18
1852media
yeah And there's a reason I'm telling you this. I wish I wasn't, but there's a reason I'm telling you this. so there's as ah
00:10:26
Veronica Adams
Because lawsuits are stupid.
00:10:28
1852media
All suits are so stupid. So there's an affidavit that had to have been filed as part of that package. okay So BANG files the trademark registration package.
00:10:36
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:10:42
1852media
As part of that package, there's an affidavit filed by Grant, and okay but real name, Grant.
00:10:50
Veronica Adams
yeah Yes, yes, the actual person behind Pippa Grant.
00:10:51
1852media
um
00:10:54
1852media
Yes, the actual person behind Pippa Grant. And she makes a variety of statements saying that like, I control these books.
00:11:04
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:11:04
1852media
Um, I self publish these books and I, you know, I am Pippa Grant for lack of a, you know, there's more technical language.
00:11:15
1852media
You can go look it up, but that's basically what it says.
00:11:17
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:11:17
1852media
Okay. And then it's, she signs it as the applicant of the, package, okay?
00:11:25
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:11:27
1852media
This is made to be a ridiculous thing in this lawsuit. I'm not shitting you. At least 20 grand worth of legal fees went into fighting about whether the trademark registration was valid or not because real name Pippa Grant stated that she was the applicant on this
00:11:36
Veronica Adams
Yep.
00:11:51
1852media
affidavit that was attached to the trademark application that BANG filed because in order, ah BANG was the applicant, not real name PIPA grant.
00:11:52
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:11:57
Veronica Adams
Right. Yes.
00:12:05
Veronica Adams
Right, right, right.
00:12:07
1852media
So at most a slight ambiguity, which by the way, for the record, and everybody agrees to this in the record, that BANG is made up of one person and that one person is real name PIPA grant.
00:12:20
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. but like So let's back up for a second
Cease and Desist Efforts
00:12:25
Veronica Adams
and talk about procedurally why this is even important, right?
00:12:25
1852media
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
00:12:27
Veronica Adams
Because at some point after the defendants collectively Green, right?
00:12:27
1852media
yeah
00:12:36
Veronica Adams
Pippa Green, after they have been publishing under Pippa Green for some time, Pippa Grant discovers
00:12:45
1852media
Yes.
00:12:46
Veronica Adams
this brand and these books and the confusion among her readers who think that their books are her books.
00:12:52
1852media
There's a lot of confusion, yeah.
00:12:53
Veronica Adams
Yes. So her lawyers send a cease and desist letter to the two people operating the pen name green.
00:13:01
1852media
Yes.
00:13:01
Veronica Adams
um And then ultimately this lawsuit becomes necessary because the cease and desist does not accomplish everything they wanted it to.
00:13:09
1852media
Oh my God. So yeah, so this is what happened, ah at least from the documents, right?
00:13:12
Veronica Adams
Uh-huh.
00:13:15
1852media
This is what I'm reading happened.
00:13:15
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:13:17
1852media
So PIPA, there's all this confusion. Like literally there's Amazon reviews saying like, I've read other books by PIPA grant on the PIPA green reviews.
00:13:27
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yes. Reviews of Pippa Green's books referencing Pippa Grant's catalog. Like it's clear as day that there are some readers out here who do not understand that these are two different brands.
00:13:33
1852media
Yeah.
00:13:39
1852media
Correct. And different people.
00:13:40
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:13:41
1852media
um You know, when you search for Pippa Grant, your Pippa Green books are showing up on Amazon searches.
00:13:48
Veronica Adams
am Amazon be Amazon-ing.
00:13:48
1852media
Because Amazon, Amazon is thinking that you meant to search for Pippa Green because of the way that the or both are, vice versa.
00:13:57
Veronica Adams
And because there's so much crossover between those two brands, right? Because the readers are consuming them both because they're in the same genre, sub-genres.
00:14:04
1852media
Yeah, I was gonna say there they're both rom coms. They're both, yeah, they're both like hockey sports related um and all of that.
00:14:07
Veronica Adams
Substantially similar.
00:14:11
Veronica Adams
Right, right. So the algorithm on Amazon is going to serve both of them to you often in screenshots in the court documents, literally next to each other in search results.
00:14:20
1852media
Yes.
00:14:22
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:14:23
1852media
So all of these things happen.
00:14:26
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:14:27
1852media
And then a seasoned assist was sent from Pippa Grant to the Pippa Green people.
00:14:33
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:14:33
1852media
and then eight months of negotiations ensue, okay?
00:14:37
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:14:38
1852media
Eight months, I don't, I cannot even imagine why. Why was this even a fight, right? Like I did, right, right.
00:14:47
Veronica Adams
I have a question for you. ah like Do you engage in eight months of negotiations after sending a cease and desist? like Just as a legal matter, right?
00:14:59
Veronica Adams
I'm
Negotiation Failures and Lawsuit Decision
00:15:00
Veronica Adams
not sending one unless I've got the lawsuit drafted, you know what I mean?
00:15:03
1852media
A hundred percent and the lawsuits being filed like eight.
00:15:05
Veronica Adams
like I'm giving you 30, 45, maybe 60 days to respond to me in good faith, and if we are in an agreement in 90 days or less, this is this is this is going in front of a judge, period.
00:15:17
Veronica Adams
Eight months.
00:15:18
1852media
Thank you. It's yeah. PIPA grant was trying desperately not to file this lawsuit. That's how I take that.
00:15:25
Veronica Adams
I mean, and and probably for good reason too, because, you know, the the billables in a litigation situation are just out of control.
00:15:30
1852media
Yeah.
00:15:32
Veronica Adams
So you're spending a ton of money to litigate something, but seriously, eight months of negotiations. You want to talk about trying to trying to avoid the lawsuit?
00:15:38
1852media
Well, and yeah.
00:15:42
Veronica Adams
That's trying to avoid a lawsuit.
00:15:45
1852media
And I cannot understand why the Pippa Green people were so unwilling to do what was necessary because the the amount at issue, they even say that the amount at issue is less than $75,000.
00:16:02
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:16:03
1852media
and because they're talking about, you don't care. But um i just know that I know that the amount, yes,
00:16:10
Veronica Adams
The amount in controversy for pleading requirements and jurisdiction and everything else, but yeah.
00:16:15
1852media
that the amount is less than $75,000 that the green people made on these books.
00:16:18
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:16:23
1852media
And I mean, both of them, right.
00:16:25
Veronica Adams
Still has to go to federal court because it's a trademark thing, but yeah.
00:16:29
1852media
And both of these people spent definitely that. in legal fees.
00:16:34
Veronica Adams
Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure.
00:16:36
1852media
I mean, combined, you know, most likely um to get it to the point that it was getting.
00:16:38
Veronica Adams
Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:42
1852media
And so eight months worth of negotiation. So what happened in these negotiations? start Okay, let's look at the timeline. All right, so they send the C and D, okay, on September 26, 2022, PIPA grant,
00:17:01
1852media
provided defendants with the four formal notice of trademark infringement with cease and desist.
00:17:05
Veronica Adams
Right. Right.
00:17:11
1852media
As early as October 17th, 2022, so this is like a month later, right defendants rebranded the Pippa Green Mark to eat and done.
00:17:24
Veronica Adams
That's right. That's right.
00:17:26
1852media
So about a month after they get the C and&D, Green does capitulate at first and they say, okay, we're going to rebrand under the name Eden Dunn.
00:17:31
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:17:38
1852media
Okay. So on, and I'm sure Grant was like, wonderful. That's fantastic. like We can just move along and live our lives and none
00:17:47
Veronica Adams
Yes.
Pippa Green's Rebranding Issues
00:17:50
1852media
of this has to be a problem.
00:17:52
1852media
That's not what happened. so
00:17:58
1852media
So on November 1st, the Green people announced the rebrand to members of um the Pippa Green email list.
00:18:10
Veronica Adams
Yes, they have their own newsletter.
00:18:11
1852media
Yes.
00:18:12
Veronica Adams
They tell all their subscribers. They're they're no longer Pippa Green. They are now Eden Dunn.
00:18:16
1852media
We are now eat and done.
00:18:18
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:18:19
1852media
um And they used the same cover art um and the same everything.
00:18:26
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:18:26
1852media
For the Pippa Green books, they just changed the name to Eat and Done. That's literally all they did. So they then continually repeat references in their email announcements and on social media.
00:18:44
1852media
many times to that Pippa Green is now eat and done. And I'm sorry, I'm looking at notes here, but to the point, rebranding, yes.
00:18:53
Veronica Adams
Yeah. We're rebranding. We're rebranding. We're rebranding. Yeah.
00:18:59
1852media
Saying it multiple times to the point that now people know that Pippa Green is eat and done.
00:19:06
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:19:06
1852media
This is where it bites them because now they have now forever linked eat and done to Pippa Green.
00:19:13
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:19:14
1852media
And in a way, yes,
00:19:15
Veronica Adams
After already establishing a bunch of confusion among readers between Pippa Grant and Pippa Green. Yes.
00:19:21
1852media
um to the extent that in June of 2023, PIPA Grant is still receiving emails asking where to find the Minnesota read Raiders series that was written by the PIPA Green people.
00:19:34
Veronica Adams
Uh-huh. Yes.
00:19:39
1852media
So clearly their rebrand was not effective because they did not, also they didn't take down the Pippa Green yeah website or, um you know, the newsletter list, they they were still, some of the books had links to that, like in the back matter or whatever said like Pippa Green and stuff like that.
00:19:51
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah. Nor did anyone ever issue a statement ah addressing the fact that Pippa Green was not and is not and never would be Pippa Grant, that there was a differentiation between the two brands.
00:20:12
1852media
Right. Yeah. So like there was still um all throughout this time, there the Pippa Green website is still up with links to Amazon for purpechasing purchasing purchasing Pippa Green branded books that now take them to a book that says eat and done on it, but everything else is the same.
00:20:23
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:20:32
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:20:33
1852media
Um, so I think this is where the eight months comes into play, right? So, um, people Pippa grand, I'm sorry, Pippa green branded ebook, say that 10 times fast. We're available in on sale through the Pippa green website and on Amazon through October 19, 2022. And at least one Pippa green branded printed book is still on sale on Amazon as of September 3rd, 2023.
00:21:00
Veronica Adams
Right. Right.
00:21:02
1852media
So this is the problem. The problem isn't so a month after they get the C and D green people capitulate and they're like, Oh yeah, we'll, we'll change our name.
00:21:11
Veronica Adams
You'll change the name. Yeah, exactly.
00:21:13
1852media
But then they didn't do a good job of changing the name.
00:21:17
Veronica Adams
They didn't clean up the mess they made. Like eight.
00:21:18
1852media
Yeah.
00:21:19
Veronica Adams
Is that simple?
00:21:21
1852media
You, I mean, this happens from time to time, right? You are allowed to then post like a small, whatever your agreement is, right? That that could have been hashed out between the,
00:21:28
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:21:31
1852media
the two authors, you know, if you're rebranding, trying to not to avoid a lawsuit, then you should have some sort of,
Trademark Protection Strategies
00:21:40
1852media
um, a grace period in there to allow you to clean up the names of everything.
00:21:42
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:21:45
1852media
Scrub it. Right. And also like advertise in some way that you are the new, whatever.
00:21:52
Veronica Adams
Right. Right. Well, and beyond that, let's take a step back to before all of this started, right? If you're going to be this sketchy about building an author brand and basically ah imitating to the point of theft a lot of the brand elements of another more established author,
00:22:01
1852media
Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:14
Veronica Adams
Do your research and figure out whether or not someone has a registered trademark for their pen name or any of their other branding elements first, because that's ultimately what gave rise to this lawsuit, is the fact that there was a PIPA grant trademark here.
00:22:20
1852media
I know. Yeah.
00:22:28
1852media
Right.
00:22:28
Veronica Adams
and
00:22:28
1852media
if but If there wasn't a pay PIPA grant trademark, it would have been a lot harder ah for PIPA grant to win this.
00:22:34
Veronica Adams
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:22:35
1852media
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:38
Veronica Adams
So, you know, take that for what it's worth and go see an IP lawyer to find out how to best protect your brand. But like, seriously, a little bit of searching the federal register would have saved these ladies a lot of trouble.
00:22:46
1852media
yeah and well
00:22:51
1852media
Well, here's the thing, though. I think they did. I mean, they maybe didn't search the trademark portion, right? They certainly didn't do that, um which is your point.
00:22:57
Veronica Adams
Right. Right.
00:22:59
1852media
But they definitely did some searching when they were coming up with their name.
00:23:00
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:23:04
Veronica Adams
Oh. No, they did their homework from a branding perspective, like in terms of looking at the market and trying to figure out who to copy so closely without actually going over the line, right?
00:23:06
1852media
Like, oh, yeah.
00:23:15
1852media
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:23:16
Veronica Adams
um that That part's evident. But yeah, I mean, the registered trademark is really what brings us into federal court and makes this lawsuit as big as it is. Otherwise, it ends up being ah probably a state-level cause of action for you know some sort of civil claim.
00:23:28
1852media
Right.
00:23:31
1852media
So I'm sorry, or, or um common law, you know, copyright and and or common law trademark or something to that effect, um which is also valid, but not a federal lawsuit here.
00:23:34
Veronica Adams
Yep. Yep. Yep. Right.
00:23:44
1852media
um So, yeah. It, this whole, this whole case is wild. Okay. It, it's wild because this person is putting themselves, one of the green people is putting themselves out as a marketing expert.
00:23:51
Veronica Adams
Right. Yes.
00:23:59
1852media
And then this is, this is, this is what has happened. So I don't know if an expert in what I'm not sure. Um, but not in avoiding lawsuits that, that is the fact.
00:24:10
Veronica Adams
yeah Yeah.
00:24:12
1852media
So Pippa Grant is dealing with this and is trying to do their you know do her best to not file this lawsuit because for eight months, she's given them time after time after time.
00:24:21
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:24:25
1852media
And I imagine she's constantly you know having to send her attorney, having having to send another letter like, this is not proficient.
00:24:31
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:24:33
1852media
Cause they said that the negotiations were like eight months, like this was protracted.
00:24:38
Veronica Adams
Right, right.
00:24:40
1852media
Um, negotiations. And then finally they just said, fuck it. We're filing.
00:24:47
Veronica Adams
You've had, you've had enough time. We are, we have reached an impasse.
00:24:49
1852media
Yeah.
00:24:50
Veronica Adams
There's something here that needs to happen that you're refusing to do. Whatever the case may be, the complaint gets filed and the allegations are made and the, when we get the answer and affirmative defenses and counterclaims and we are off to the races.
00:24:54
1852media
Yeah.
00:24:59
1852media
This is where we are. Oh my God. So paper grant sued. the PIPA green, yeah, which is two people.
00:25:10
Veronica Adams
Pippa green. Yeah.
00:25:13
1852media
So that's why I keep saying the PIPA, the green people.
00:25:14
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:25:16
1852media
So PIPA grant ah sued the green people for trademark counterfeiting and infringement under the Lanham act.
00:25:25
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:25:25
1852media
Okay. That's count one, count two.
00:25:30
Veronica Adams
Unfair competition and false designation of origin under the federal statutes.
00:25:32
1852media
Thank you.
00:25:34
1852media
Yes. And then count three is common law trademark infringement and unfair competition under the laws of Virginia.
00:25:38
Veronica Adams
Yep.
00:25:42
1852media
So that's where they were at. So then the defendants filing answer.
00:25:51
Veronica Adams
The Green People.
00:25:52
1852media
Yeah. The green people.
00:25:53
Veronica Adams
And the answer is basically what you would expect. It's pretty much a denial of most of the allegations and some confirmations of some of the recitations of fact in the complaint. I mean, it like standard boilerplate answer to me for the most part.
00:26:03
1852media
Yeah.
00:26:07
1852media
It was mostly boilerplate. um They state that they you know stopped using Pippa Green, that they started using Eden Dunn.
00:26:15
Veronica Adams
Mm-hmm.
00:26:20
1852media
They deny that they're currently selling any books under the Pippa Green pen name. um
00:26:25
Veronica Adams
Bold denial given the Amazon screenshots attached to the complaint.
00:26:29
1852media
Sure was. I imagine though, that at the time of writing the answer that it was true, but at the time in which the complaint was filed, it was, that was awfully true.
00:26:38
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:39
1852media
I have a feeling that got taken down.
00:26:40
Veronica Adams
Clean that up before they file their answer.
00:26:42
1852media
Uh-huh. Um, and then, and then, so they found a bunch of affirmative defenses, which is what you do when you file an answer. Okay. So the affirmative, if you don't file affirmative defenses, you waive them.
00:26:54
Veronica Adams
You wave them.
00:26:56
1852media
Okay. Yeah.
00:26:57
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:26:58
1852media
So it is very normal to file and and frankly malpractice if you do not file affirmative defenses.
00:27:05
Veronica Adams
Even if they're bullshit because you have to preserve them for the record, like a judge could strike all of them in a simple, you know, in a standard hearing, motion hearing or whatever.
00:27:07
1852media
Yeah.
00:27:13
1852media
Yeah.
00:27:14
Veronica Adams
But um if you don't plead them, they're gone forever and you can't appeal based on them. Like you just, they're just not part of the record. So.
00:27:21
1852media
And sometimes things come up in discovery and you realize you have facts that can support your affirmative defense that you might not have at the time of filing the answer.
00:27:28
Veronica Adams
Uh-huh.
00:27:31
1852media
Anyway, so this you're filing the answer. They have affirmative defenses, very normal stuff, you know nothing massively objectionable.
00:27:43
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:27:43
1852media
um I did think that um the one affirmative defense ah basically talking about fraud which ends up getting stricken, ah was wild.
00:27:57
1852media
That plaintiff's registration, the trademark registration, was obtained fraudulently and not as entitled not entitled to protection.
00:28:05
Veronica Adams
yeah
00:28:05
1852media
I was like, oh, well, this will be interesting. And turns out it was in an expensive way.
00:28:12
Veronica Adams
and ah Yeah. Ended up, yes, ended up being one of the most aggravatingly interesting things about the case, honestly.
00:28:18
1852media
Yes. And then,
00:28:22
Veronica Adams
But wait, there's more!
00:28:23
1852media
No, wait, there's more. Instead of just answering the complaint, in instead of just answering the complaint and dealing with the issues and having your affirmative defenses, the defendants took it a step further and filed a counterclaim and sued PIPA Grant back.
00:28:28
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:28:42
Veronica Adams
and sued Pippa Grant back. Yes, like...
00:28:46
1852media
I do not understand the legal advice that was provided in this moment.
00:28:51
Veronica Adams
No, but now at this point procedurally, I understand the eight months of negotiations, right? Because clearly, clearly this is where the parties could not get it together, right?
00:28:56
1852media
Yeah, oh yeah.
00:29:01
Veronica Adams
So there's something that the Green people or their attorneys decided was material to resolving this outside of court.
00:29:01
1852media
Yeah.
00:29:10
Veronica Adams
And they just couldn't come to an agreement. So now we have the lawsuit and also the counter lawsuit.
00:29:17
1852media
Yeah, so the counterclaim has a few counts, okay?
00:29:22
Veronica Adams
Yes, it does.
00:29:23
1852media
The first count of the counterclaim
00:29:26
Veronica Adams
but Yeah, the green Greens suit against Grant, right.
00:29:27
1852media
is, yes. So that is a declaratory judgment of non-infringement. That's the the first counterclaim. They want to declare, okay, all right.
00:29:37
Veronica Adams
Right. They want the court to state
Pippa Green's Counterclaim
00:29:40
Veronica Adams
affirmatively that there was no infringement.
00:29:43
1852media
Correct.
00:29:44
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:29:44
1852media
And I read that and I was like, all right, sure. um The second one, second one is a cancellation of the trademark registration of PIPA grant.
00:29:56
Veronica Adams
This is where shit starts to get wild.
00:29:58
1852media
Truly, truly wild. um Yeah, okay. So they they have reasons.
00:30:06
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:30:07
1852media
ahha And then the third counterclaim is damages sustained in consequence of the false and fraudulent procurement of a federal trademark registration.
00:30:18
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah, the the audacity to claim that Pippa Grant has damaged them because, bang, falsely procured the trademark for Pippa Grant.
00:30:29
Veronica Adams
And the Green people have somehow suffered harm from that, including financial loss and or anything else that has given rise to this lawsuit.
00:30:30
1852media
Yes.
00:30:38
1852media
Right. And so they are asking for a dismissal of plaintiff's claims with prejudice, um declaring that the use of Pippa Green and or even done does not and will not infringe any trademark, um cause confusion or mistake or deceive the the public, constitute unfair competition or false designation, basically all of the the claims against them.
00:30:45
Veronica Adams
Mm hmm.
00:30:53
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:31:03
Veronica Adams
Yep. A cancellation of the trademark.
00:31:05
1852media
um Yes. And then awarding damages in favor of the defendants in an amount to be determined at trial um for the damages that they are owed because of the alleged false trademark registration.
00:31:17
Veronica Adams
Okay. Right.
00:31:22
1852media
declaring this an exceptional case and awarding defendants their reasonable costs and fees. That would be attorneys' fees and costs. That can only be granted under exceptional cases, and you have to request that um now, if that's something you're going to be asking for later.
00:31:34
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:31:39
1852media
So that's not like, for for maybe a lay person reading that, they would be like, oh my God, what the fuck? But like that's that's normal, pretty standard.
00:31:46
Veronica Adams
Pretty standard. Yeah, if you want attorney's fees, you got to get that out there almost immediately in most cases.
00:31:48
1852media
um
00:31:52
1852media
Yeah, and you're always going to put that in there because on the off chance that a court does decide.
00:31:57
Veronica Adams
I've seen some cases where it didn't happen. people
00:31:59
1852media
Oh, God.
00:32:01
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Woe be the attorney who forgot to plead for their own fees.
00:32:02
1852media
that That's.
00:32:06
1852media
Truly, truly, that is that is standard boilerplate. You plead for your own fees.
00:32:11
Veronica Adams
It really is.
00:32:12
1852media
You plead for your own fees.
00:32:12
Veronica Adams
It really is.
00:32:13
1852media
Always. If there is a statute that allows it, you put it in there.
00:32:17
Veronica Adams
Even if you're not entitled to them, ask for them anyway.
00:32:17
1852media
So.
00:32:20
Veronica Adams
That way it's in the record. If it gets stricken, it gets stricken. But, like, crazier things have happened.
00:32:23
1852media
Ask for it anyway, yeah. This is one of those, you're throwing spaghetti at the wall situations.
00:32:30
Veronica Adams
Listen, ah my my contracts professor in 1L, he literally drilled it into it. It never hurts to ask.
00:32:36
1852media
It does not, yeah.
00:32:37
Veronica Adams
It never hurts to ask. And I mean, that he was kind of, wow. That advice like to a lot of other things besides what we were learning in class, I think is what I'm trying to say, but we'll leave it there.
00:32:49
1852media
Yes, yeah. yeah But so yeah, okay, so back to this. So we have we have a situation where bang sues the green people.
00:32:59
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:33:00
1852media
um And then the green people turn around and sue bang back, saying that your trademark is not valid.
00:33:05
Veronica Adams
That's right.
00:33:09
1852media
And somehow that damages us.
00:33:11
Veronica Adams
That's right.
00:33:12
1852media
And you owe us money actually.
00:33:14
Veronica Adams
Well, of course it damages them, right? Like their theory of the case is going to be we've had to rebrand because you are now asserting rights that you don't actually legally have because your trademark registration is false.
00:33:20
1852media
Yes.
00:33:24
1852media
Right.
00:33:26
Veronica Adams
Like, you know, I mean, is it accurate?
00:33:28
1852media
That's their theory of the case. who
00:33:31
Veronica Adams
Judge and or jury would ultimately decide that. but um that Spoiler alert, that counterclaim gets stricken.
00:33:34
1852media
Well, the judge does decide that. But in this case, and yeah, yeah.
00:33:46
1852media
But yes, I think it's important to note, so from the perspective of the defendants, this is their theory of the world.
00:33:51
Veronica Adams
Yes. Right.
00:33:54
1852media
Their theory of the world is that the trademark is invalid.
00:33:59
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:33:59
1852media
And as Veronica was stating, if the trademark is invalid, that basically frees up their ability to do whatever shady shit they want to do.
00:34:08
Veronica Adams
to make less than $75,000 trying to pretend to be Pippa Grant and confuse readers.
00:34:08
1852media
um
00:34:13
1852media
Yes, basically. um But it makes them not legally liable for a lot of this stuff.
00:34:18
Veronica Adams
Right. Yes.
00:34:20
1852media
And that is the key.
00:34:20
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:34:22
1852media
That's what they're trying to get out of.
00:34:22
Veronica Adams
That's right. ah Ultimately, that's the biggest piece of the puzzle here because if they can prove this fraud with respect to the registration and the registration gets canceled and the rest of the claims that Grant has against Green pretty much go up in smoke.
00:34:39
1852media
They fall apart, yes.
00:34:40
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:34:41
1852media
so
00:34:41
Veronica Adams
Which again is why it's so important to make sure the author you're going to copy doesn't have a registered trademark.
00:34:47
1852media
right And so important why if you do build a brand that is successful, you trademark your name.
00:34:54
Veronica Adams
Maybe a trademark it anyway.
00:34:56
1852media
Yeah, they mark, yeah.
00:34:56
Veronica Adams
I mean, you know,
00:34:59
1852media
It's not incredibly expensive.
00:35:00
Veronica Adams
It's not a bad idea.
00:35:01
1852media
I mean, it's not overly expensive, okay?
00:35:05
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:35:06
1852media
It's not like it's thousands and thousands, it's less than $1,000.
00:35:08
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:35:09
1852media
So if if you're...
00:35:11
Veronica Adams
And it holds up better than trying to brand a single word or phrase associated with whatever it is you write.
00:35:11
1852media
ah some Yeah.
00:35:17
Veronica Adams
There's another case I'm sure we'll talk about eventually.
00:35:17
1852media
and
00:35:20
1852media
We will absolutely talk about that that baby.
00:35:22
Veronica Adams
Love that one.
00:35:23
1852media
That one is gonna be a long episode.
00:35:23
Veronica Adams
Love that one. Yeah, we may have to do it in multi-part.
00:35:28
1852media
Yeah. um But yes, that is absolutely correct. So trademarks are trademarks matter.
00:35:33
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:35:36
1852media
This is why trademarks matter, okay?
00:35:37
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:35:38
1852media
um So then we get into a situation where now we have like, how You saw that stack that I had.
00:35:46
Veronica Adams
yes
00:35:46
1852media
Three quarters of the fucking stack was talking about this trademark, whether it's valid or not.
00:35:52
Veronica Adams
The, the, the alleged fraud in the registration of the trademark and whether or not it's valid.
00:35:55
1852media
Okay. Yes.
00:35:56
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:35:57
1852media
Yes. And I literally had to roll my eyes when I was reading some of this because I was, oh my God, I could not believe that we, I mean, I can believe it because I used to i used to do this shit.
00:36:09
1852media
But um like, This is the part of the law that used to impure me is when you fight over this minutia detail and that is has really nothing.
00:36:17
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:36:20
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:36:20
1852media
It matters to the point where it's it it's the crux of whether the case is going to exist or not.
00:36:26
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:36:26
1852media
by But has nothing to do with these substantive facts.
00:36:33
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:36:33
1852media
right
00:36:34
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:36:34
1852media
um And that that's what drives me nuts. But anyway. um
Legal Arguments on Trademark Validity
00:36:40
1852media
So then we get into Bang's um motion to dismiss the defendant's third counterclaim and their motion to strike their fourth affirmative defense based on fraud.
00:36:53
1852media
So their third counterclaim, as we recall, is the one about damages for the alleged fraudulent um trademark registration.
00:36:53
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:37:03
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:37:04
1852media
And the fourth affirmative defense was the one saying that the registration was made via fraud.
00:37:13
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:37:14
1852media
Okay. So, bang is filing a motion to dismiss su dismiss and strike.
00:37:22
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:37:23
1852media
Essentially, it would it would be a dismissal for lay people as well. It's a dismissal of the affirmative defense. It's just called striking it if it's a if it's an affirmative defense and not, ah anyway.
00:37:30
Veronica Adams
Yes, yes.
00:37:34
1852media
um Terminology, but that's why it's talked about that. So yeah, this is the...
00:37:40
Veronica Adams
The only reason you go to law school, honestly.
00:37:44
1852media
You learn all of this. it can It gets so convoluted and I can understand how people could not follow some of this stuff because sometimes it gets confusing to me too and I know all the terms.
00:37:51
Veronica Adams
Yes, yes.
00:37:56
1852media
So yeah, so they file this memorandum of law and support of that motion and um basically say had defendants undertaken even a rudimentary investigation of the facts, they would have discovered that real name PIPA grant is the sole member of BANG based on publicly available documents.
00:38:18
Veronica Adams
They were fully aware of it. They just made, the they they just pled the counterclaim and asserted the affirmative defense anyway.
00:38:20
1852media
Yeah.
00:38:26
Veronica Adams
And I mean, you know, from a procedural standpoint, it was probably correct to do so.
00:38:28
1852media
Yeah.
00:38:31
Veronica Adams
but yeah Still doesn't mean it wasn't bullshit.
00:38:35
1852media
Right. um So they basically say, you know, the owner of the mark was listed as bang.
00:38:41
Veronica Adams
Right?
00:38:41
1852media
um
00:38:41
Veronica Adams
Bang is wholly owned by Grant the Individual.
00:38:44
1852media
Yes.
00:38:47
1852media
The attorney that filed the trademark stuff filed a publicly available voluntarily voluntary amendment to satisfy the requirements for a pen name that identifies a living individual because the PIPA grant mark identifies real name PIPA grant.
00:38:53
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:39:06
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:39:06
1852media
Um, and so they file, you know, a failure state of claim, which is a motion to dismiss standard. And, um, they are saying, so the affirmative defense of based on fraud, um, they argue that it has to satisfy federal role of several procedure 9B, which has a heightened pleading requirement.
00:39:30
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:39:30
1852media
Um, and when
00:39:32
Veronica Adams
This is more legal nonsense.
00:39:34
1852media
Yes. And basically you have to have a heightened pleading requirement when you are saying that there's fraud to get away from things like this, where you just sort of throw it in there and don't actually...
00:39:40
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:39:46
Veronica Adams
Bare bones put the absolute minimum you can in terms of what the facts are as you state them.
00:39:51
1852media
Yeah. And the heightened pleading requirement basically says that you need to have the elements available and readily available for pleading fraud.
00:39:56
Veronica Adams
Yes. Right. that This particular kind of allegation or claim has to, the bar is not on the floor, essentially.
00:40:05
1852media
Yeah, the bar is higher than that.
00:40:07
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:40:08
1852media
And so there's a presumption of validity for the registration of a trademark that once it exists, that it is true and correct.
00:40:17
Veronica Adams
Right. Right.
00:40:18
1852media
Right. um And then they you know they just go through some legal sorcery. I'm not going to go through the entire, you know, motion dismissed because it's basically it can get it's very technical, right?
00:40:35
1852media
And the whole point of it is basically that they're saying that these things do not rise to the legal standard that exists and that everything is on the up and up.
00:40:35
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:40:38
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:40:45
1852media
We filed the trademark registration was valid.
00:40:45
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:40:48
1852media
it When it was filed, it's valid today. We are all good. Here is why.
00:40:53
Veronica Adams
Right. The facts don't support allowing this claim to continue. That on a summary judgment motion or a trial, anybody doing the fact finding, whether it's judge or jury, would have to side with Grant in this case because the facts just don't support what Green is asserting.
00:41:06
1852media
Right. right And so as as you would expect, because not like Green's going to give up at this particular point, um Green has already filed a counterclaim.
00:41:16
Veronica Adams
Of course not.
00:41:19
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:41:19
1852media
So they they're not in a position to back down now.
00:41:23
Veronica Adams
Their pot committed at this point. Their attorney's getting paid one way or another.
00:41:25
1852media
Yes. Yeah, their attorney is living the life here. um And I did, I will say that I did appreciate how their attorneys put together this reply or this answer to the counterclaims and, or I'm sorry, plaintiffs, that's what I'm talking about.
00:41:40
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:41:48
1852media
I appreciated plain as bangs answer to the counterclaims and what their attorneys did because they actually put there the and then the response below it off. That was so nice.
00:41:58
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:41:59
1852media
Thank you for that.
00:42:00
Veronica Adams
Rather than just reciting the counterclaims and then putting all of the answer after reciting the counterclaims.
00:42:05
1852media
Yeah, yeah, it was nice.
00:42:05
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:42:08
1852media
um But yeah, I'm trying to think.
00:42:10
Veronica Adams
Very mindful.
00:42:13
1852media
So then we have the defendant's opposition to plaintiff's motion to dismiss and motion to strike. I'm trying to see.
00:42:20
Veronica Adams
more More of the pissing match here where we argue about whether or not we're right or they're wrong.
00:42:25
1852media
Yeah.
00:42:26
Veronica Adams
Yes, the usual back and forth.
00:42:28
1852media
a The usual back and forth.
00:42:29
Veronica Adams
Because it before the judge makes a decision on something like this, ah both parties have an opportunity to present more evidence and be heard. So, finger pointing continues.
00:42:36
1852media
Yes. So that, yeah, so there's an opposition. and and then And then there's a reply from bang to the defendant's opposition.
00:42:49
Veronica Adams
Yes, to, yes, yes.
00:42:52
1852media
Okay, so that's why it can get confusing. There's the motion to dismiss, and then there's the opposition to the motion to dismiss, and then there's the reply to the opposition that they filed.
00:43:01
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:43:04
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:43:05
1852media
So you get like an extra go at it as the the person filing the the moving party, if you will.
00:43:05
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:43:11
Veronica Adams
You're watching tennis, right? You're like, whoo, whoo, back and forth, you know, like.
00:43:13
1852media
Yeah.
00:43:18
1852media
and a lot of the yeah And a lot of the information in these documents is the same, right? Just written differently.
00:43:25
Veronica Adams
Pretty much.
00:43:27
1852media
um Sometimes, though,
00:43:27
Veronica Adams
an occasional citation to new case law or something, but basically the exact same stuff over and over again.
00:43:33
1852media
Yeah, um but sometimes you can find and a new and interesting factoid that hasn't been brought up before and I've seen that um happen. I did find it interesting. um So the defendants in their opposition stated that the court should allow them to pursue their third counterclaim because it will allow them, the defendants, Pippa Green people, to repair perhaps a small part of the damage to their goodwill and reputation inflicted by the plaintiffs through the alleged infringement action.
00:44:18
1852media
did you catch Did you see this?
00:44:18
Veronica Adams
Give it a what?
00:44:20
1852media
I literally had to go back and look at the, because I missed it, I saw it in the reply, or in the defendant's opposition, um And then I saw it in the reply and I was like, what now? But that literally, it's on page six of the defendant's opposition to plaintiff's combined motion to dismiss. And they say, lastly, defendant's pursuit of their third counterclaim will allow them to prepare perhaps a small part of the damage to their goodwill and reputation inflicted by plaintiff through its alleged infringement action.
00:44:58
Veronica Adams
The audacity.
00:45:00
1852media
They're asking the court to let them get damages, for like to go forward on this so that they can repair the damage to the goodwill and reputation inflicted by plaintiff, inflicted by bang for the alleged infringement option.
00:45:08
Veronica Adams
Right. Right. Right. Right.
00:45:20
Veronica Adams
They want Grant to pay them, the green people, money damages inflicted by Grant's enforcement of Grant's trademark.
00:45:24
1852media
Yeah.
00:45:31
1852media
Right. And then let's just say that Bang's attorneys did not appreciate that line. They didn't.
00:45:42
Veronica Adams
and
00:45:42
1852media
That's where I saw it first. i I literally didn't even see that sentence.
00:45:47
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:45:47
1852media
Like, because I was, listen, I'm reading these things, your eyes start to cross a little bit.
00:45:50
Veronica Adams
It's a lot, i've I missed it, I missed it.
00:45:52
1852media
Yeah.
00:45:53
Veronica Adams
Like it's a lot of stuff.
00:45:54
1852media
And it's a sentence. um But I'm also not getting paid to reply to these things.
00:45:56
Veronica Adams
Right.
00:45:59
1852media
So I'm not reading them super carefully.
00:46:01
Veronica Adams
Appreciate it.
00:46:01
1852media
um Now, the bank's attorneys, though, they are getting paid. So they're you know they're on this.
00:46:06
Veronica Adams
Yes. Please tell me they laid the smack down.
00:46:09
1852media
um They did. um They say, defendants request to maintain the fraud-based counterclaim to repair the reputation is not only incredible, but also telling.
00:46:21
1852media
Defendants had the benefit of protracted negotiations to keep their actions out of the public purview.
00:46:25
Veronica Adams
so That eight months, man.
00:46:28
1852media
The defendant's actions objectively color them in an unflattering light is no one's fault but their own.
00:46:37
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:46:39
1852media
Oh, that that's the beauty of the legal system.
00:46:41
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:46:42
1852media
Yeah, that was a nice smack down.
00:46:45
1852media
So and then they just basically fight some more over.
00:46:49
Veronica Adams
I love an artfully pled sit down and shut up.
00:46:51
1852media
Yeah, and that's what that was. It was like, are you be so fucking for real? That's what that said right there in legal language.
00:46:56
Veronica Adams
Right. Right.
00:46:59
1852media
um But yeah, they basically say the only ambiguity here with the trademark registration document is one manufactured by the defendants based on unwarranted inferences, unreasonable conclusions, and a misunderstanding of the relevant laws and procedures of the trademark office.
00:47:06
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:47:18
Veronica Adams
a
00:47:19
1852media
And they fight a little bit over what does self-publishing mean. I mean, ah yeah.
00:47:24
Veronica Adams
Tell me you fucked around and found out without telling me you fucked around and found out. You know what I mean? like
00:47:31
1852media
And then we get to the peace, daily resistance, which is the memorandum opinion from the judge.
00:47:38
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:47:38
1852media
So what happens in these situations? I don't know if they had a hearing. I don't think they had a hearing for this particular case.
00:47:45
Veronica Adams
No, I suspect not because of all of the document filings. I think this was an unheard motion and order.
00:47:53
1852media
I'm looking.
00:47:55
1852media
Sometimes they will have a hearing, yeah.
00:47:56
Veronica Adams
Typically, yeah, but when there are that many documents filed on the matter, usually it means the judge is skipping the hearing.
00:48:03
1852media
Yeah, no, that's true. Notice of a hearing for a jury trial. Okay, so um rural conference, 16 conference.
00:48:08
Veronica Adams
That's it.
00:48:12
1852media
set Yeah, there was not a hearing for this particular motion.
00:48:16
Veronica Adams
Okay.
Judge's Decision and Settlement
00:48:20
Veronica Adams
That makes sense given the the motion, the reply,
00:48:25
1852media
The opposition and then random.
00:48:25
Veronica Adams
the memorandum in opposition, the reply, like, yeah, yeah, that tracks.
00:48:27
1852media
Yeah.
00:48:29
1852media
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. um So then the judge issued their opinion and basically he granted, he agreed with bang, okay.
00:48:40
Veronica Adams
Yes, yes.
00:48:41
1852media
He granted the motion to dismiss the third counterclaim and the fourth affirmative defense.
00:48:46
Veronica Adams
And the fourth Affairment of Defense.
00:48:49
1852media
So the whole fraud thing, he basically said that the the trademark registration is true and valid and correct and we're good to go there.
00:48:49
Veronica Adams
That's right.
00:48:55
Veronica Adams
Right, right.
00:48:57
1852media
Um, which as you know, because we told you earlier when that happens, that means that the rest of, uh, that, that puts green in a not great position.
00:49:09
Veronica Adams
Yes, they're now, ah they've always been on the defensive, but they've never been against the ropes like this until now.
00:49:09
1852media
Okay.
00:49:14
Veronica Adams
So, so naturally what happens next Heather?
00:49:15
1852media
Yeah. Um,
00:49:20
1852media
So then this was filed, the order, the opinion was filed in April of 2024 of this year.
00:49:26
Veronica Adams
Yes, yes.
00:49:29
1852media
And by July, we had a joint stipulation of dismissal with prejudice and a settlement agreement in place.
00:49:37
Veronica Adams
Yes, the prejudice part is very critical for those who are not initiated.
00:49:41
1852media
Yes.
00:49:42
Veronica Adams
That means this lawsuit can never be filed again by grant. And most likely the counterclaims from the Green people cannot also be filed as their own separate lawsuit at any point in time in the future.
00:49:52
1852media
Yes, so we do not know um what the settlement agreement includes, except that we do know that the settlement agreement required um for a statement, a statement to be issued.
00:50:06
Veronica Adams
ah public statement. Uh-huh.
00:50:10
1852media
Yes. So the on 7-16, the joint stipulation of dismissal with prejudice was um filed, and then the order granting that was issued on July 17th.
00:50:25
1852media
And then also on July 18th, a statement was issued. And the statement reads, the party to the lawsuit, bang, laugh, love, LLC versus the green people um and the case number and all that have agreed to settle their dispute, miss the the green people, um respect the intellectual property rights of all authors,
00:50:42
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:50:54
1852media
and agree not to challenge the registered US trademark PIPA grant.
00:51:01
Veronica Adams
and
00:51:04
Veronica Adams
So telling about how the chips fell in the settlement negotiations, so telling
00:51:06
1852media
Yeah.
00:51:09
1852media
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. PIPA grant won this.
00:51:13
Veronica Adams
that's not the kind of that's That's not the kind of thing a defendant or a group of defendants or a pair of defendants do unless they absolutely have to.
00:51:21
1852media
Correct. PIPA grant won this 100%.
00:51:23
Veronica Adams
Yes, absolutely.
00:51:25
1852media
PIPA Grants attorneys wrote that. ah so um
00:51:30
Veronica Adams
With maybe very minor watering down tweaks from the Green's attorneys, maybe.
00:51:34
1852media
Yeah, I mean, if I was Pippa Grant's attorneys, I'd probably want wanted more in there. But at the base level, this was, you know, notice it doesn't say anything about Pippa Grant, having to make and anything, having to make any sort of declaratory statement about anything.
00:51:46
Veronica Adams
Her claims or, and yeah, nothing.
00:51:51
Veronica Adams
Uh-uh. Uh-uh.
00:51:52
1852media
um It's the defendants respect the intellectual property rights of all authors and agree not to challenge the trademark Pippa Grant.
00:52:02
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:52:03
1852media
So That is very, yeah, yeah.
00:52:04
Veronica Adams
Mwah, chef's kiss.
00:52:08
1852media
Very telling. We don't know what else was included in the settlement agreement, but my guess is there was, you know, an affirmative, this is speculation at this point.
00:52:13
Veronica Adams
No.
00:52:21
Veronica Adams
Of course.
00:52:21
1852media
So like I said, we don't know. um But there had to have been some sort of, you know, affirmative thing saying that we are definitely going to take all this sort of stuff down.
00:52:30
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:52:30
1852media
um I'm interested to see, hold on, I haven't even looked, but are Eden Dunne books even exist.
00:52:38
Veronica Adams
Do they still exist? Can you still buy them? Is there an Eden done website?
00:52:42
1852media
Let's see. All the paperbacks? No. the The ebooks are all down and all of the paper books are out of print with limited availability.
00:52:55
Veronica Adams
There you go.
00:52:56
1852media
So, yeah. Eat and done is no more.
00:53:00
Veronica Adams
Grant really won this one, like really won this one.
00:53:00
1852media
Which, yeah, which Which was my guess. I was not expecting to see Eden Dunn be in existence ah after that lawsuit.
00:53:05
Veronica Adams
Yes, of course. Yes. right
00:53:13
1852media
So essentially they could, um you know, come back
Conclusion: Trademark Lessons for Authors
00:53:20
1852media
and probably create another pen name, right? But they are not allowed to link it in any way.
00:53:25
Veronica Adams
Well, and I'm sure that they're planning that. Like, if you have all of this stuff that you've already written, I mean, know all you gotta to do is tweak it a little bit, rebrand it, put a completely different cover on it, completely different pen name, change some character names maybe, like.
00:53:41
1852media
Yeah.
00:53:44
Veronica Adams
So listen, shady is as a shady does, okay? So like, yep.
00:53:50
1852media
Right, these are things to learn from. this The reason why we're doing these videos is so that you can see what not to do or what to do. Because if you're in an ah if you're in a situation like Pippa Grant, now you have at least a little bit of a roadmap, right?
00:54:00
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:54:06
1852media
Or at least to know that this happened to somebody else. And if you're thinking about doing something like what the Pippa Green people did, then you know better now.
00:54:14
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:54:15
1852media
ah So this is educational in learning.
00:54:16
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yes. this This discussion hopefully has dissuaded you from pursuing that plan. Or if you're still going to do it anyway, at least you'll be smarter about it than the two ladies writing Pippa Green were.
00:54:28
Veronica Adams
I mean, you know,
00:54:28
1852media
Right. Yeah. It just, that's right.
00:54:31
Veronica Adams
We are nothing if not useful.
00:54:35
1852media
That's right. I mean, that, and this, this is why this stuff is so important. Um, because, you know, they, they say like, Oh, you know, they're just romance books.
00:54:40
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:54:44
1852media
They're just fun. And so, well, yes, of course they're, they are, but they're also businesses and you know, you can have situations where,
00:54:47
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:54:54
1852media
Trademark issues come up um and infringement occurs and you know you don't want confusion in the marketplace between brands.
00:54:55
Veronica Adams
Absolutely. Yes.
00:55:02
1852media
You don't. Nobody should want that.
00:55:06
Veronica Adams
No, that's how people get hurt.
00:55:06
1852media
you know I mean, I just had to tell somebody who was, they were, I had a potential new client call and um they're a debut author and I searched the name that they wanted to use just for, before the call. And as a piece of free advice, I told the person on the call, um you're going to want to need to look at that name because that name already exists on Amazon.
00:55:32
1852media
and um you know spell it differently, do something a little differently.
00:55:37
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:55:38
1852media
It doesn't look like the original author, they had one book, but and it's in a completely different genre, but even still, you're not gonna be able to claim that author account.
00:55:47
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:55:48
1852media
um It's going to be potentially confusing moving forward.
00:55:51
Veronica Adams
Well, and for the entirety of your publishing career, you're going to be combating the fact that another author was using that name prior to you. So like, you're, you're going to have issues claiming titles on Bookbub.
00:55:58
1852media
Correct.
00:56:02
Veronica Adams
You're going to have issues with Goodreads.
00:56:03
1852media
Yep.
00:56:04
Veronica Adams
You're going to have, I mean, even if you're not in the same genre,
00:56:05
1852media
It's not worth it. It's not not worth it.
00:56:07
Veronica Adams
Yeah, distinguish yourself exactly.
00:56:08
1852media
Just pick something else. Spell it differently. Put another N in there. put it Put an extra E. I don't know.
00:56:15
Veronica Adams
right use ah Use a middle initial of some kind, like do something.
00:56:15
1852media
Make it right. You can have the name sound like you want. People spell things all the time in interesting and unique ways now.
00:56:26
Veronica Adams
Yes, they do.
00:56:27
1852media
do that. Um, ah so I'm just, if if that's the name that you desperately want, right?
00:56:32
Veronica Adams
Right, right.
00:56:32
1852media
The sound of it, you know, make yourself different. That's all I'm saying. And check these things because this person did not know.
00:56:39
Veronica Adams
But Heather, Pippa Green is so different from Pippa Grant.
00:56:45
1852media
Oh my God. And I like the Pippa Green people said in one of their myriad of replies and answers that it was a pure coincidence that the hero's name in the first book, their debut book was Grant.
00:56:54
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:57:04
Veronica Adams
No, it wasn't.
00:57:04
1852media
And I was like, no, it wasn't.
00:57:05
Veronica Adams
They put that name in the blurb, I'm sure. And then all the metadata on Amazon is now cobbled together.
00:57:08
1852media
100%. Yup. First searcher.
00:57:13
Veronica Adams
All of Pippa Grant's catalog with this one book from Pippa Green with the hero name Grant in it. And now they're basically identical for purposes of the algorithm.
00:57:22
1852media
Yeah, immediately, 100% deliberate.
00:57:22
Veronica Adams
It was absolutely a deliberate choice.
00:57:27
1852media
I mean, you cannot tell me differently.
00:57:28
Veronica Adams
And yes, well, and one half of Pippa Green, I'm sure knew that because she held herself out as a marketing and branding expert and was very aware of this kind of stuff.
00:57:37
1852media
Yeah.
00:57:40
1852media
The Amazon algorithms, the metadata and searchability with keywords and all of that.
00:57:44
Veronica Adams
Right. Yes.
00:57:46
1852media
Yeah, so there's no way that you can convince me otherwise.
00:57:47
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:57:51
1852media
They said that they got it from, that it was a popular name on for sports players or something.
00:57:54
Veronica Adams
yes She was, she was, even invited to and did I believe speak or give some sort of presentation on marketing and branding at an offer conference in Australia where she lives.
00:58:05
1852media
Oh yeah, at the RWA conference, yeah.
00:58:07
Veronica Adams
So like, was it RWA?
00:58:10
1852media
Yeah, it was our WA because they attached as one of the exhibits, the like, the little thing about our panel.
00:58:12
Veronica Adams
Lord.
00:58:17
Veronica Adams
Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a coincidence. It was a deliberate choice.
00:58:21
1852media
No. Yeah, 100%. You cannot convince me otherwise.
00:58:25
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
00:58:25
1852media
ah So no yeah, dark on don't be that guy. Don't do that.
00:58:31
Veronica Adams
We have. Yeah.
00:58:32
1852media
And I'm sorry, Pippa Grant, that you had to go through this protracted litigation um over something so ridiculous and the amount of money that it must have cost you to do that.
00:58:40
Veronica Adams
ah yeah oh
00:58:48
1852media
Yeah, wild. I hope that the settlement agreement is on terms that you found acceptable.
00:58:57
Veronica Adams
No kidding.
00:58:58
1852media
I truly do because this is this was unacceptable.
00:58:59
Veronica Adams
the
00:59:02
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:59:02
1852media
The counterclaim really is what got me. I mean, I'll listen, i can there is being aggressive, right? And then there's like pounding on your chest when you're wrong.
00:59:10
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:59:14
1852media
um And this was like the latter.
00:59:17
Veronica Adams
The latter.
00:59:19
1852media
The the counterclaim was completely unnecessary.
00:59:24
1852media
completely unnecessary, caused a whole lot of more legal fees for no reason.
00:59:26
Veronica Adams
Yes.
00:59:30
Veronica Adams
Well, you know i'm trying to i'm I'm trying to think about the lawyer's theory of the case here. right like i guess Listen, if you've got paying clients who are going to fund the litigation and it's a matter of principle for them, I guess, you know if you're if you're willing to entertain that kind of practice, more power to you.
00:59:44
1852media
Right.
00:59:49
Veronica Adams
Because at the end of the day, that that's ultimately who won here.
00:59:49
1852media
right
00:59:52
Veronica Adams
right both most Both sets of lawyers, right they're the real winners here.
00:59:52
1852media
Oh, the lawyers always win. Yeah.
00:59:58
Veronica Adams
Um, but like, it takes some audacity to look at these facts and go, you know what? Let's throw this at the wall, even though there's absolutely, it you know, it's specious.
01:00:09
Veronica Adams
There's no integrity to doing this, but let's do it anyway.
01:00:10
1852media
Right. That's what I did. I felt like there was a lack of integrity with that counterclaim. um And i they just put a bad taste in my mouth for opposing counsel there.
01:00:16
Veronica Adams
her
01:00:19
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
01:00:22
Veronica Adams
Right.
01:00:22
1852media
um
01:00:23
Veronica Adams
Like that sketchy conversation between the attorney and the client where they're like, well, you know, we don't really have a leg to stand on, but if we throw this at the wall and the judge buys it, I can get paid and you guys don't have to give me any money.
01:00:33
1852media
Right.
01:00:33
Veronica Adams
You know? And then it's like, oh, great.
01:00:34
1852media
Right.
01:00:36
Veronica Adams
And we can keep using Pippa Green. Let's do it.
01:00:40
1852media
Right. And now they're not using Pippa Green, Eat and Done, or anything of the sort.
01:00:45
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
01:00:46
1852media
um Good. Good.
01:00:50
Veronica Adams
Yes.
01:00:51
1852media
Lesson learned. Let's hope.
01:00:53
Veronica Adams
Yeah. So don't, don't be these people and protect your IP. It doesn't really cost as much as you think it does.
01:00:59
1852media
That's right. No, it really doesn't. If you have an attorney helping you, it's going to cost a little bit more.
01:01:04
Veronica Adams
Sorry.
01:01:05
1852media
Um, but there are, you know, yeah, I think your livelihood.
01:01:06
Veronica Adams
It's a small investment for a long-term security though. I, you know, I'd pay somebody a few hundred or even a thousand dollars to take care of this for me. If it meant protecting, you know, yeah a backlist of any size and a brand that's already established all day, all day.
01:01:22
1852media
Yeah. I mean, people spend $900,000 on exclusive images for your book covers. Come on. Pay an attorney $1,200 to get...
01:01:31
Veronica Adams
What?
01:01:32
1852media
Yeah.
01:01:33
Veronica Adams
What?
01:01:34
1852media
I'm sorry. do you don all You don't have people doing that?
01:01:38
Veronica Adams
$900,000? Are you just being...
01:01:40
1852media
No, no, $900,000 to $1,000.
01:01:42
Veronica Adams
Oh my god!
01:01:46
1852media
ah Sorry.
01:01:49
Veronica Adams
I'm over here panicking in fiscal responsibility over a $1 million dollar cover image, custom photo.
01:01:52
1852media
Oh my God, no.
01:01:56
1852media
No, no, no.
01:01:58
Veronica Adams
Like, what?
01:02:00
1852media
$902,000 or more.
01:02:04
Veronica Adams
and And that's on me needing more coffee.
01:02:06
1852media
ah let pocket Oh, I mean, I could have been hyperbolic, but no, I was at $900,000.
01:02:13
Veronica Adams
Oh my God. No. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. 900 about no. um I've had clients spend upwards of 3,500 on images.
01:02:21
1852media
Oh, yeah.
01:02:21
Veronica Adams
Okay.
01:02:22
1852media
Oh yeah.
01:02:22
Veronica Adams
Lake. Yeah.
01:02:24
1852media
Yeah. So 100% worth it to find yourself a trademark IP attorney.
01:02:29
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
01:02:29
1852media
We can file your trademark for you for, you know, $1,500, 1200 bucks, whatever.
01:02:33
Veronica Adams
Okay, yep, absolutely.
01:02:35
1852media
So get it done. Get it done. That's our tip for you today.
01:02:40
Veronica Adams
Find somebody who can avoid doing it with amendment though as long as like the the amendment here is really what opened the door to all of this.
01:02:43
1852media
ah like
01:02:47
1852media
Yeah, or just make sure that you're filing it. You're careful with the words in which are um spoken.
01:02:52
Veronica Adams
Yes.
01:02:54
1852media
Which, by the way, in the opinion, the judge basically said that it's not a big deal. Like they're making they making a much ado about nothing.
01:02:59
Veronica Adams
Yeah.
01:03:01
Veronica Adams
Yes, mountains out of molehills so to speak.
01:03:02
1852media
So, yeah. And that in order to prove what they were trying to prove, they had to provide malicious intent.
01:03:12
Veronica Adams
Yes.
01:03:12
1852media
Like they basically had to show that there was malicious intent to defraud the patent and trademark office, which there was no evidence to suggest.
01:03:18
Veronica Adams
Which is hard to do when Bang and Grant, the individual, are one and the same.
01:03:23
1852media
Correct.
01:03:24
Veronica Adams
You know, like when there's nobody else who owns, operates, or manages Bang, it's just Grant, ah you know, the real person behind the pen name.
01:03:30
1852media
Yeah.
01:03:32
Veronica Adams
um And that individual is also the one who's filing the affidavit. And like, you know, I mean, that's a whole nother discussion about
01:03:37
1852media
Yes.
01:03:40
1852media
Right. It's it's not. and And that person has the ability to sign on behalf of Bang and, you know, yeah.
01:03:48
Veronica Adams
cor the the rules and and regulations of corporate entities and the fiction of businesses and individuals.
01:03:49
1852media
So.
01:03:53
1852media
Yes.
01:03:57
1852media
Anyway.
01:03:59
Veronica Adams
That's a whole other podcast.
01:04:00
1852media
and that It is, but I hope you learned something today and um
01:04:04
Veronica Adams
Yes, yes, please take something away from this or at least just be entertained by the absolute shit show.
01:04:09
1852media
Yes.
01:04:12
1852media
And if you like this kind of content, let us know. We plan to do more legal breakdowns of publishing disasters of of legal cases.
01:04:16
Veronica Adams
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
01:04:22
1852media
So until next time, this has been For Book's Sake.