Transcript
Heather Roberts: hello Hello and welcome back to For Books Sake. I am Heather Roberts.
Veronica Adams: I am Veronica Adams and we are 1852 Media.
Heather Roberts: And we're talking about more book banning today.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: um There's more lawsuits to talk about. Last time we talked about, what is it, Escambiacan County?
Veronica Adams: yeah ecaam Yeah, the Escambia County School Board case, yes.
Heather Roberts: Yes, there are other lawsuits to discuss. So there's some in Iowa, um But I'm not talking about those today. We're staying in Florida.
Heather Roberts: Well, I just want to say there's others that have popped up in my searching.
Veronica Adams: but Put a pin in the Midwest, we'll be back.
Heather Roberts: Yes, we'll be back.
Veronica Adams: Today we return to Florida.
Heather Roberts: We're going to stay in Florida. Yes. We're returning to Florida and we are talking about, because last time we were a little confused and maybe you were confused too.
Heather Roberts: because there are so there's been so many legal challenges that I couldn't tell, frankly, if these were the same legal challenges, if they were different, right?
Veronica Adams: right
Heather Roberts: They are different, okay?
Veronica Adams: yes
Heather Roberts: That one is that one was against um the county school board, I believe.
Veronica Adams: They are indeed. Yeah, the school boards, yes.
Heather Roberts: Excuse me. This one is against the Florida State Board of Education.
Veronica Adams: Totally different organization.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: So we go from Pensacola to probably Tallahassee is my best guess.
Heather Roberts: Right, so this case was filed in, hold on, the, go back up, the U .S.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: District Court for the Middle District of Florida, so Orlando.
Veronica Adams: Hell yeah.
Heather Roberts: That is your, that is your old stomping run.
Veronica Adams: um one of one one of One of those, one of those that the bottom one, the bottom one right there folks, middle district of Florida, okay. For those of you watching on YouTube, probably not.
Heather Roberts: So Veronica may have some insight here specifically. It has been assigned to Judge Carlos E. Mendoza.
Veronica Adams: I do not know judgment does that.
Heather Roberts: um
Veronica Adams: Listen, I'm an art i'm i'm an Article III lawyer as far as my experience in federal courts go, right?
Heather Roberts: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: so Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It was filed um on August 29, 2024, and essentially nothing has happened in it see right now.
Veronica Adams: Uh -huh.
Veronica Adams: I mean, August to October, yeah.
Heather Roberts: on Everyone's been served. Yeah, everyone's been served. At least it looks like almost everyone, if not almost everyone has been served. um Appearances have been entered on behalf of the defendants and there's been a extension of time granted for either a defendant's motion to dismiss or their answer to be filed on or before December 20th.
Veronica Adams: pretty typical procedural stuff.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, pretty, pretty average, pretty normal. Um, it takes a little while to serve everyone.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: There is a lot of defendants. Okay. So and another, there's a lot of plaintiffs as well, but the defendants specifically who have been, you know, um, filed against in this case, my brain is not working this morning.
Heather Roberts: I apologize. But it's ah everyone who's on the Florida State Board of Education in their official capacity as being a part, as members of.
Veronica Adams: Perfect. Yeah. As members of the board.
Heather Roberts: So it's individual defendants that they have to serve all of these individual defendants in their official capacity.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Veronica Adams: Yes. And they will live all throughout the state, probably.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: They'll require a myriad of process servers and who knows how much time to actually make sure service is executed properly on each one of them.
Heather Roberts: Additionally, they've also sued the Orange County School Board, also and also individually individual defendants in their official capacity as members of the school board.
Veronica Adams: All right, that's orle that's Orlando. Okay. Uh -huh. Got it. Okay.
Heather Roberts: So we have the Florida State Education. Oh, and also the Volusia County School Board.
Veronica Adams: Daytona Beach, yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, so two school boards and the Florida State Board of Education are being sued.
Veronica Adams: Okay.
Heather Roberts: That is a lot of individual defendants, which is why this service has taken as long as it has, and it's taken a while.
Veronica Adams: Yes, it is.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: But yes, everybody has an attorney.
Veronica Adams: This is one of those cases that justifies the truncation rule in this in the case heading, like the style of the case, because if you had to list out every single party, it would be like five pages of just the case name.
Heather Roberts: Oh yeah, yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It's insane.
Veronica Adams: Okay.
Heather Roberts: Even in the complaint, the actual parties portion of the complaint, I was just like, scroll, scroll, scroll.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: It is excessive.
Heather Roberts: It's excessive.
Veronica Adams: All right.
Heather Roberts: So the complaint itself is 94 pages long. ah So good bit of it.
Veronica Adams: Well, but it sounds like a bunch of that's a recitation of like just the parties to make sure everybody's proper and and yeah.
Heather Roberts: the The factual allegations start on page 20 to give you an idea. Okay.
Veronica Adams: There you have it.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, there you have it.
Veronica Adams: 19 pages devoted to just listing the parties.
Heather Roberts: Yes, jurisdiction and chinaire.
Veronica Adams: All right. Perfect.
Heather Roberts: Essentially their argument, and I personally think it's a good one, they are using free speech. That's their whole thing.
Veronica Adams: I mean, what what better argument is there in a case like this?
Heather Roberts: there
Heather Roberts: Right. there It's a very simple argument in that the um school board and the Florida State Board of Education, school boards, I should say, and Florida State Board of Education are not properly following the rulings of Miller and its progeny from the Supreme Court.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Veronica Adams: yeah the the The federal United States Supreme Court line of cases on interpreting the First Amendment.
Heather Roberts: with specifically media publishing all of that.
Veronica Adams: Right, right.
Heather Roberts: yeah And ah that they've not that the law does not ah properly follow that and therefore it's unconstitutional for the specific questions of of issue here.
Veronica Adams: Perfect, so.
Veronica Adams: So we've we've been interpreting the First Amendment since the Supreme Court was was first ah installed, right?
Heather Roberts: so
Veronica Adams: We have this line of case law, which I mean, you know, depending on
Veronica Adams: The respect for precedent you do or don't have um is the law of the land, right? And so the argument basically is just that Florida has violated the First Amendment and that case law.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Brilliant, simple, straightforward.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, very, very simple, very straightforward.
Veronica Adams: Awesome.
Heather Roberts: And yeah, they take issue with the fact, we talked about this a little bit last time in the other lawsuit, that there is no process in the law for evaluation, how long it has to take um for an evaluation of this book, what happens to the book, you know, the process
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: you know, being put back on the shelves or being taken off the shelves.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: What is that process? What is the timeframe there? And then also they take issue with the fact that there's no ah definitions or any sort of process for who is the one that is going to be doing the taking of the books off the analysis and then putting them back or or what have you.
Veronica Adams: So we have questions about like over breadth potentially and then also vagueness, right? Like we don't know how to, there's just not enough information here for us to make a determination about who's supposed to do what or when any of this is supposed to happen.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Correct. So, what is the Miller test some may be asking themselves?
Heather Roberts: Now, the Miller test outlines guidelines for, ah you know, obscenity cases, which is what this is.
Veronica Adams: Yes. Yes.
Heather Roberts: It's an obscenity case.
Veronica Adams: he the The books at question here have been basically red flagged for being obscene.
Heather Roberts: for having sexual content within them.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: um One of them, I think we brought this up last time and they bring this up in a lawsuit. Now that one of the books was removed because it mentioned the term make love and um that according to the plaintiffs is just outside of the scope of what is appropriate under the Miller test, because under the Miller test, you have to take the work as a whole into account.
Heather Roberts: You can't just you know cherry pick these terms and say, oh, well, because it has sexual content in it, it's overall bad.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um So the Miller test is three prongs. One, whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work taken as a whole appeals to the prurient interest.
Veronica Adams: Stay prurient interest five times fast, by the way.
Heather Roberts: Yes. And Veronica, what does prurient mean?
Veronica Adams: ah It means excessive interest in or relating to sex sex or sexuality in an excessive way. It's ah overly sexual, excessively sexual, having or encouraging an excessive interest in sex.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Heather Roberts: So the first prong, yeah.
Veronica Adams: Although that in and of itself seems subjective to me too, because depending on, I mean, you know, there's several factors that go into play.
Heather Roberts: It is a bit.
Veronica Adams: What really is excessive? Who gets to define that?
Heather Roberts: Right. So, right, that's a very good point. um The courts have tried to, but that's why we have all of this precedent to go and look at, right?
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Right. Right.
Heather Roberts: So the first prong is talking about whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work taken as a whole appeals to that type of interest, like overly sexualized interest.
Veronica Adams: Is overly sexual. Yeah, excessively sexual.
Heather Roberts: Yes. Yes. Number two is whether the work depicts or describes in a patently offensive way sexual conduct is specifically defined by the applicable state law.
Veronica Adams: Great.
Heather Roberts: And then the third one, which is where a lot of the cards are being hung here, and frankly, they should be in my opinion, whether the work taken as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
Heather Roberts: So if the work, taken as a whole, has some type of serious literary value, in this case, usually it would be literary, you could make the argument for artistic or political, I suppose.
Veronica Adams: Well, or even scientific in in some, I mean, you know, I,
Heather Roberts: Certainly scientific, or even scientific, it was science books, right?
Veronica Adams: it it it all just depends on what the book is about, right? So like, if you've got an objection to a book about um members, ah
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: someone who identifies as trans and who is making a transition, right? Like, material related to the medical process of hormone therapy and or gender affirming care of any kind, arguably has scientific value, does it not?
Heather Roberts: yeah
Heather Roberts: That process, yeah.
Veronica Adams: I mean,
Heather Roberts: Correct, right.
Veronica Adams: You may object to that scientific value, but it still has some sort of scientific value.
Heather Roberts: Serious scientific value, correct.
Veronica Adams: There you go, right? So it doesn't necessarily have to be literary for books, but literary is usually, you know, right.
Heather Roberts: No.
Heather Roberts: Especially for nonfiction books.
Veronica Adams: the The portion of that third for fiction rather than nonfiction.
Heather Roberts: Yes. Or I'm sorry, for fiction books. For fiction.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, yeah.
Heather Roberts: Yes. Yes. So for fiction, rather than nonfiction, it's usually literary interest, which is why the cherry picking of the terms like make love and just banning a book based upon that term alone is not appropriate because you have to take the work as a whole to determine whether it's appropriate.
Veronica Adams: Right. Yes.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yes. Right.
Heather Roberts: I mean, let's be honest, I am currently reading a series right now that taken on as a whole, one one could make the argument that this is not appropriate, right?
Veronica Adams: Uh
Heather Roberts: for Especially for schools, okay?
Veronica Adams: huh.
Heather Roberts: For schools.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: You know, it is 99 % spice. I am not kidding. there is I'm reading it because it's very popular and I need to know what's popular and why it's popular. It is not my personal style of book that I like thoroughly enjoy, but it's not a bad book, right? It's it's good. there's There's some plot development. Might be 1 % plot, but it's there. It exists.
Heather Roberts: um But if they were bringing that book forth in this argument, and like if it was in the library, which I guarantee it's not, okay.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: But if it was in the library and they brought this book forth and said, should it be, you know, available for students?
Veronica Adams: Right. Right.
Heather Roberts: You know, sure, okay. We can have that conversation. I would, maybe maybe not. Maybe we don't put that one in there, okay. um But for the most part, that's not what's happening.
Heather Roberts: These books are more about they have actual literary value, they have plots, they have substance. They just also happen to have a couple of sex scenes or sexuality in them in some way or referencing sexuality in some way, which is a part of the human experience that cannot be ignored.
Veronica Adams: Yeah, right. depends on the human.
Heather Roberts: You're right. But I mean, even if Even if you are asexual, being asexual is still a term form of sexuality.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: And so perhaps having a book about being asexual would help you to you know work and understand your sexuality. I mean, we all have sexuality and it doesn't mean that you're sexual and actively sexual.
Heather Roberts: It just means that you have some type of sexuality, at whatever varying degree that is or whatever whatever it is.
Veronica Adams: you I think. When you stop and consider, so the Supreme Court has made no bones since the Miller test became a thing, that it it's kind of imperfect case law and they're not particularly like married to it, but also there's never really been a case that has given them the facts that would lead them to develop a different test or just discard.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: the Miller test as precedent, right?
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: And it seems to me like situations like this are probably people in a certain cultural space seeking to move the culture in the direction, our our national culture, American culture, the legal standards in in a direction that they favor.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: So they are doing things like this in the hope that these state lawsuits or federal lawsuits end up in front of the Supreme Court for the purpose of getting rid of Miller and making First Amendment case law a little more favorable to banning books or to, you know, censoring content.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Veronica Adams: um
Heather Roberts: Correct. Yeah. And I should know that there is line of cases that applies the Miller test to specifically students, that there's, you know, right.
Veronica Adams: Right. Well, of course, because minors is a totally different consideration than what adults can go out and consume in the free market. Right. So.
Heather Roberts: Correct. So that that has been taken into consideration here as well.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um And they are applying that standard to the Florida law.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: And the plaintiff's argument is that it's not up to snuff, and that it does it doesn't pass the the Miller test.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: And therefore, you can't it's unconstitutional.
Veronica Adams: right and Even if you apply extra sensitivity and or are extra rigorous in the analysis, because we're talking about children accessing these books in public schools and public school libraries, um there's still not enough specificity in the law.
Heather Roberts: Right.
Heather Roberts: and
Veronica Adams: and that it is overreaching and applying and being applied to books that it absolutely should not be applied to. um Even, you know, so it's too vague and also too far reaching all at the same time, right?
Heather Roberts: Exactly. And their process is just, yeah it's not appropriate because what happens is somebody can anyone um can object to a book.
Veronica Adams: Sure.
Heather Roberts: And that book, as they they remove a book within five days of receiving an objection, right? But then the issue is, ah what what happens to the book after that?
Veronica Adams: Right, where does it go?
Heather Roberts: So yeah,
Veronica Adams: It just sits in purgatory indefinitely.
Heather Roberts: Correct. And so some books have been temporarily removed, quote unquote, from a library shell for at least a year.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: So is that the so the Florida is saying, well, we're not banning books, they're, they're going through a process. Well, when you
Veronica Adams: What's the process?
Heather Roberts: when when the right and When the actual outcome is that you can't go and obtain the book, isn't it still banned?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: you know Essentially, you've banned it without ah actually banning it.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: ah And that's that's the argument here. So it's it's very interesting. And I like what the publishers have done in this case because it is very straightforward um with their argument here.
Heather Roberts: They have a you know a whole culture of fear section.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: in their complaint, um talking about the different training materials and erring on the side of how it encourages media specialists to err on the side of caution and that it could result in felony charges for educators with non -compliance and all of that, which then encourages more banning rather than actual critical review.
Veronica Adams: Right. Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: so
Veronica Adams: Is it completely hostile to the people who are actually responsible for curating collections or maintaining classroom content? And it's a wonder there are any public educators left in the state of Florida.
Heather Roberts: It truly, truly, because it it really is a war on educators.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um it's It's wild. So who are the plaintiffs here? We didn't really talk about that, but I feel like it's important to talk about the plaintiffs.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: So let me go back up here. We have Penguin Random House, Hatchet Book Group, Harper Collins, Macmillan Publishing, Simon & Schuster, Sourcebooks,
Veronica Adams: Yep. All right, so we're getting punched in the face by the big five and then some.
Heather Roberts: Yeah, source books, The Author's Guild, and then some authors.
Veronica Adams: Okay. Hell yeah.
Heather Roberts: We have Julia Alvarez, John Green, Laurie House, yes.
Veronica Adams: Of course, the ah the authors whose work have been repeatedly challenged, I'm sure.
Heather Roberts: Laurie House Anderson, Jodi Pico,
Veronica Adams: Of course.
Heather Roberts: Angie Thomas, and then Heidi Kellogg is a parent and next friend of RK, and Judith Ann Hayes is a parent and next friend of JH.
Veronica Adams: Okay.
Veronica Adams: Sure. So you're gonna have to have parties to the lawsuit where the book bands have actually adversely impacted someone.
Heather Roberts: and
Veronica Adams: So we have students, the minors who are protected by their by using their initials only, and then who are parties to the lawsuit via their guardians in this case.
Heather Roberts: Correct.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: The parents are guardians, you just mentioned. So children who have attempted to access books and have been prohibited from doing so as a result of the law.
Heather Roberts: And that's how it's stated.
Heather Roberts: Yes.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And if you see, so if you ever see that in a case and you're like, what does that mean? That just, it's protecting the minors, right?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And it's their parent or guardian who is acting in their steed um as part of the lawsuit.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: So let me go down and see if I can find some more and interesting things from the the authors. Okay, so for example, Green's book, Looking for Alaska, excuse me, it was published by PRH, so Penguin Random House.
Veronica Adams: yeah
Heather Roberts: It's coming for those who haven't read it. It's a coming of age story in teen romance about a boarding school student who gets bullied. I personally, I mean, I'll interject this. I hated that book.
Heather Roberts: Only because I hated the ending, okay?
Veronica Adams: You do you do enjoy John Green though, just not this particular book.
Heather Roberts: I really like, yes, I really like John Green. This book, I mean, it's still a great book because it it in it evoked a visceral reaction from me.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: And if any book can evoke that type of reaction from me, it's a good book.
Veronica Adams: Right. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: I personally did not like the ending, okay?
Veronica Adams: It happens.
Heather Roberts: That's why I didn't like the book, but it happens. But John Green is a fantastic writer, okay?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: It's a New York Times bestselling novel. It won the ALA's Michael L. Prince Award, was a finalist for a Los Angeles Times book prize.
Veronica Adams: Right.
Heather Roberts: you know featured on top 10 best books for young adults, all these awards, right?
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um It's been removed from school libraries under the laws prohibition on content, the Florida laws prohibition on content that describes sexual conduct, end quotes.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
Heather Roberts: Looking for Alaska has been removed from school libraries in at least seven school districts in Florida since the law went into effect. So that's why he's in here.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And then it goes through each author and the book that's at issue. um Pico's book, Jodi Pico, um the book at issue here is 19 minutes that centers on a school shooting and the de ah the devastating ramifications um of of all that.
Veronica Adams: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And that book, which I mean, you would think you should put in a school in the current climate, but okay, it's been removed from school libraries and at least 15 school districts in Florida since the law went into effect.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um She has another book, Change of Heart, that um tells the story of character Shayborne, a death row prisoner who seeks to redeem himself by donating his heart post can postex execution to the sister of his victim who needs a heart transplant.
Heather Roberts: I've read that trope before, it's a very good trope.
Veronica Adams: Yeah,
Heather Roberts: If done well, it could be done very well. and it's been removed from at least two school districts. so And it goes through different authors of multiple books.
Veronica Adams: yeah right.
Heather Roberts: um So if you're interested, go and download this this complaint because they really wrote this complaint well, I have to say.
Heather Roberts: I think that this is better than some of the other complaints that I've read, ah frankly, about book banning.
Veronica Adams: there's an art There's an art to pleading. Some people are really good at it.
Heather Roberts: There really is.
Veronica Adams: Some people are not so great at it.
Heather Roberts: This is really clear and straightforward as far as complaints go.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: So yeah.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um So yeah, I mean, we they are fighting the good fight. This is definitely one that we're going to be watching.
Veronica Adams: For sure.
Heather Roberts: I think we will talk about the Iowa ones next.
Veronica Adams: Sounds good.
Heather Roberts: Dive into that and talk about those book banning lawsuits that are happening.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. And we'll see.
Heather Roberts: um Because this is a really big deal. we're we're putting We're putting so much time into these book banning lawsuits and talking to you about them because they are a big deal.
Veronica Adams: Oh, it is. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: um And while it may seem like the same content over and over, that's fine. um It's the same but different. It's necessary to talk about because this is happening ah across the United States.
Veronica Adams: great Right, right. When it's important that people see the the varying strategies involved in these attempts because, I mean, you can come at this from so many different ways and and the goal is the same, right?
Veronica Adams: To prohibit the free exchange of ideas and to limit the access that both children and in some cases adults have to specific ideas and information.
Heather Roberts: Yeah. Right.
Heather Roberts: right Right.
Veronica Adams: Which, I mean, may be something that we could debate morally and ethically, perhaps, but in terms of a free and open society is really a non -negotiable.
Heather Roberts: Sure.
Heather Roberts: ah Truly. And yeah, I think Veronica makes a really good point. I mean, this is almost a roadmap, right? That we should look at how each of these places are approaching these issues and what's going to be successful and what's not going to be successful.
Veronica Adams: Yeah.
Heather Roberts: And that's important to note for other places that are thinking about, you know, going for this type of a challenge against a book fan.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Heather Roberts: So if you don't know what's happening, you know, you won't be able to repeat it or avoid it in the future.
Veronica Adams: That's right.
Heather Roberts: So.
Veronica Adams: Yeah. You get informed and then go to a local school board meeting.
Heather Roberts: Exactly, exactly. And make sure that your school is putting books on the shelves and not taking them off.
Veronica Adams: Mm -hmm.
Veronica Adams: Yep. Yeah.
Heather Roberts: So. Until next time, we will talk about more book banning. This has been For Books Sake.
Veronica Adams: Yes.
