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Say Yes to Shoes and a Good Attitude with Hayley Paige
97 Plays9 months ago
*since the recording of this episode, Hayley Paige has won the lawsuit and is able to use her name and make wedding dresses again!
What would you do if you suddenly couldn’t use your birth name anymore in business or in life? In this episode, I’m joined by Hayley Paige, a girl you might know who was at the top of her game in the wedding dress industry until 2020. She shares a story of resilience, determination, and reinvention in the face of adversity. Get comfy and settle in to be inspired by what we dare to call just the beginning of an epic comeback story.
We chat:
- The latest tea on Hayley's legal case with her previous employer
- Creating your own luck in the face of hardships
- Is stress ... good for you?
- What it's been like to be a bootstrapped shoe designer
- How the grind of working in NY shaped Hayley into who she is today
- Hayley's thoughts on our Cheetos theory and our soft CEO era
- Hayley's advice for upcoming designers & creatives and her desire to rise all tides
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Want to hear more about the Cheetos Money Mindset story? Tune in to episode 7 on Apple & Spotify.
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Transcript
Opening: Legal Issues and Life Impacts
00:00:00
Speaker
You were employed by this company that you're now in this litigation situation with. Are there areas in your life where you're like, this, I know that this is happening because of that terrible thing that's went down? Bead, is there anything you can share about like where we are and team giving back your name?
Podcast Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to This or More, a wild entrepreneurial podcast adventure for bold and brave creatives like you. I'm Tiffany Napper, your host, holistic business coach, corporate music industry dropout, a seasoned five-time multi-six figure entrepreneur, yoga instructor, and your go-to gal for heart-to-heart coffee chats.
00:00:39
Speaker
On this show, we're not just here to share stories. We're here to ignite a fire within you and make you realize that the reality you envision is just the tip of the iceberg. You're wildly capable of achieving that reality and so much more. So my friends, grab your cup of inspiration, settle in, and let's dive into another inspiring episode of This or More.
00:01:02
Speaker
Hello, welcome to This or More. I'm Tiffany Napper, and I'm here with a very special guest today. This is a story that if you followed along like I did in 2020, you're gonna be excited to get some fresh tea. And if you somehow were living under a rock and you don't know the story, you're gonna be flabbergasted. So lean in and listen up.
Cheval's Journey to Wedding Dress Design
00:01:18
Speaker
Our guest today is a girl you might know who used to design wedding dresses, from gracing the screens as America's favorite designer on TLC's Say Yes to the Dress, to dressing notable icons like Dove Cameron, Chrissy Teigen, and Carrie Underwood,
00:01:30
Speaker
Her impact on the bridal industry is nothing short of legendary. But behind the glitz and glamour lies a story of resilience and determination in the face of adversity. I'm going to let her catch you up to speed on all of that and so much more. Today, we'll chat about a story of reinvention, creating your own luck in the face of hardships, and of course, we're going to talk about shoes. So without further ado, welcome Cheval to this and more.
00:01:53
Speaker
Yay, thanks for having me. I'm so glad to have you. So we're gonna just dive right in, okay? Because I knew you and loved you and have been following along for such a long time, but for anyone listening, give us a little backstory and I want to go before 2020. Like, give me some backstory of who you are. Going way back. Yeah, let's go way back. I think most people still know me as a wedding dress designer or by my birth name that I can no longer use publicly to identify or from Say Yes to the Dress, the fabulous show.
00:02:23
Speaker
But ever since I was young, that was always what I wanted to do as my biggest dream. And at 25, I was offered an employment contract to shoot my shot and become exactly what I was hoping to do. And it came alongside
00:02:39
Speaker
the rights for my name to be trademarked for the bridal collection I was designing and I signed that contract without a lawyer and you know got right to work and I think I relate to a lot of young artists and designers and singers even that just want to show the world what they can do and not show up and be combative or push back or not do anything that would make them lose that opportunity and so I went for it and that led it to this beautiful chapter of getting to design dresses for the most gorgeous women and
00:03:08
Speaker
I loved it, but of course with every scenario comes compromise and my long-term contract was coming to an end and I really wanted to negotiate and put myself in a position where I felt like my value was recognized in a way that I felt was appropriate.
Legal Battles and Reinvention
00:03:24
Speaker
and it was just a big confrontation and there was a big delta and my former employer actually sued me in federal court for the rights of my name among other things and then Instagram was thrown into the mix and so it got really convoluted and it's a very nuanced case. We're still in litigation so it's been about three years and now I've kind of gotten to the point where, okay, circumstances are not panning out for me and I don't want them to determine my destiny.
00:03:54
Speaker
I decided to kind of approach it as a reinvention and I changed my name publicly to Cheval, which is the French word for horse. We'll get into some of that. And now I design shoes and some accessories, things that are non-competitive with my former employer because I'm essentially under still a like
00:04:11
Speaker
five-year unpaid, not complete. Yes, yes. Yeah, five years. I was wondering how long it was. Yeah, it's actually been seven almost now or not. It's like in total it's about seven because I fulfilled already two years during the litigation and then it's a five-year on top.
00:04:26
Speaker
Okay, nice. Good times. So I mean, I can relate so much and I don't know if you know this about me, but prior to what I do now, I was in the music industry. So I've seen and been heartbroken over young artists who sign with big music labels and really get their heartbroken. And this is what that story is, in my opinion, just a different industry of like,
00:04:46
Speaker
You know, you're excited, you're ambitious. I won't even say you're naive. I don't think
Managing Public Perception and Stress
00:04:51
Speaker
that's what it is. I think people don't really prepare us and teach us what we need to know when we are presented with opportunities like that. But obviously, you look back and reflect on it and think, as you mentioned, I should have had an attorney present, right?
00:05:04
Speaker
But when we, like, take me a little bit to when 2020 happened, because it was 2020 when this all started, right? When you were renegotiating your contract. And that's when I remember, because you had a mass, this huge mass of following on Instagram. And I remember you sitting down in a very solemn kind of manner and starting to share what was really unfolding. And my heart just broke for you. Because as a fellow creative, the idea of like, what I looked at as like this big mean bully taking advantage of you was heartbreaking to watch.
00:05:33
Speaker
Will you tell us a little bit about what it was like to be so in the spotlight and and and also like how did you navigate what you wanted to share and what you didn't want to share? Because I'm sure there were like worries around the litigation process and what you could legally share. But how did you navigate that? I came from a perspective of transparency because I think in the industry of emotion, I call it, you know, everything is a sentimental purchase. And I really prided myself on being authentic.
00:06:03
Speaker
And I'm just an emotional designer, and I really put my heart out there into my work. And I think there is some magic to that that I felt in the branding of my former chapter. And so when this happened, I felt this enormous weight and responsibility and burden to not only let people know exactly what was going on, but I could not bear the idea of something being misrepresented.
00:06:29
Speaker
And in everything that did happen between not being able to use my birth name, you know, not being able to do my trade set, you know, getting my livelihood taken from me, I think losing the access and communication with my community that I had evolved and grown with and been so vulnerable with and so real, you know, that was not fake for me. That scared me. It was like a visceral reaction of almost like somebody was pretending to be me, you know. And so when there was posting going to that account,
00:07:00
Speaker
I felt this just enormous responsibility to go up there and say something. But I also understood myself to be in this really scary position of I'm being seen a certain way right now, especially like in a federal court. And I feel like I've been misrepresented and misconstrued.
00:07:19
Speaker
But my public knows me. They were there, the stores, the brides. And like, I kind of jumped out there on a wing in a prayer that people would rely on those authentic moments, as opposed to how things were being creatively spun, you know, and all the inaccuracies that I felt were being expelled out there. So.
00:07:39
Speaker
I spoke on it, you know, and it was really scary, but I tried to be respectful and I did get emotional in it. And I guess it made me feel a sense of freedom, but also putting a problem out into the world and not having a solution for it was an issue for me. Because I'm now still in litigation. And so I think our foundation coming out with that is at least opening and continuing that dialogue of how do we protect creators
00:08:05
Speaker
And how do we make it so that they don't do what I did, but also I feel like I'm.
00:08:10
Speaker
paying almost like a debt for my naivety and my ignorance. And I'm okay with that because it's like, fine. In my mind, God gave me this gift of this is a challenge that I'm going to have to figure out. And it's given to me for a reason. And so I'm happy to be that example. But it's scary because you just don't know what you don't know. And that's why we need to bring people that are real advocates around us. But who you trust is a tough thing.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and that's what's so beautiful about everything you've done from that moment till now is, you know, is leaning in when you could have just like hidden under a rock and being like, no, no, no, like you're going to try to take a lot of things away from me. Things that to most people is.
00:08:53
Speaker
Like we can't even fathom, I can't even fathom the idea of someone saying I can no longer identify as my birth name. It's a really wild story. And so looking for those ways probably to just like still have ownership over your story and your life makes a lot of sense. I talk a lot about my story of burnout as an entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur now since 2011. Prior to that, I was in the music industry in the corporate world. And I talk a lot about my burnout story and we're going to dive a little bit more into that in a second. But I can only imagine the stress you were under during that
00:09:22
Speaker
initial phase I know it's still stressful it's not over yet let's not sugar coat things but I know it was probably extra stressful in the beginning can you talk to us a little bit about how it affected your mental state your health your well-being even just physically did you notice things that happen that you've had to
00:09:38
Speaker
You know, be more aware of now moving forward. I definitely manifested some of the stress physically. I was losing hair. I had like Ray nods in my like circulation issues and you know, your body takes an emotion, you know, so even if you're still showing up and trying to be trying to be strong for other people and resilient.
00:09:57
Speaker
you sometimes can't help how it is impacting you and so for me i really tried to focus on gratitude exercises which seems so like woohoo but like it was important to go for walks and work out and still kind of do things for myself in the unseen hours even if i wasn't allowed to do things publicly
00:10:14
Speaker
And, you know, to your point when you go through something where you just can't believe and fathom what is actually happening while it's going on, the management of your attention is really important because, you know, somebody took action and then you have this moment where you get to kind of decide how you're going to respond. And I think of like Viktor Frankl and like the Stoics and like, oh, how would they do it? You know, and it's obviously so easy or said than done.
00:10:42
Speaker
But I think there is something to the Constitution and the manifesting of like, my power is in my reaction. And it was almost as if somebody was expecting me to go crawl under a rock or expecting me to bend the knee, you know, almost like in Game of Thrones, like bend the knee. Like that's literally how I felt. And it almost made me so, the combative nature of me that I kept forcing down and being too afraid to stand up for myself,
00:11:08
Speaker
Just burst it like it was like I am not going to do that. I am going to stand up for myself I'm gonna stand up for the truth and my story and I'm gonna stand up for every other person that has ever been in this scenario because I don't think this should have ever happened I just don't and so I couldn't do nothing but I also felt a lot of empowerment and saying I'm going to create my own scenario here for me and I hope anyone else would do the same because you almost feel like you're you're almost made to be
00:11:39
Speaker
it's supposed to almost beat into you. And I was like, no, I'm going to beat it out of me instead. Like this is going away. You know, for me, like it can't affect me anymore. So that's almost how I approached it. Like psychologically. Yeah. And I get, I get that. Trust me, I do. And it's such a brave and beautiful way to move forward life. It's an empowering
00:11:56
Speaker
Stance on life. It's like, you know, no, no, you're not gonna take me down You know, I use the phrase I'm gonna I've risen from the ashes multiple times in my life Phoenix girl So I get it and I so it's really remarkable and unfortunately there are a lot of people who won't come to the table with the abilities to do that for one reason or another like we all come from different traumatic pasts and situations and I use trauma with a little tea like
00:12:20
Speaker
all the things that happen that make us into who we
Transition to 'Soft CEO' and New Creative Roles
00:12:22
Speaker
are and how we're able to respond to things. So again, I really do applaud you for being such a shining light for people who need to see that it's possible and need to see that it's gonna be okay and you're still standing. In fact, you're thriving and we'll talk about that, but it's really remarkable to watch. Okay. Thank you. Absolutely.
00:12:39
Speaker
Let's talk about your name. Okay. Your new name. My new name. Let's talk about Cheval. So you mentioned it's the word horse in French, which I love France. So love it. But tell me why horse? Like what is that symbolism for you? So I am such a playful and imaginative designer and I've always pulled inspiration from my past or nostalgic nuances and
00:13:01
Speaker
When this whole thing went down and I felt like so much of me was getting pushed into this period of time that's like, this is how you should identify, which I did. For a while, I felt like my full purpose was to be a wedding dress designer. Then all of a sudden, I couldn't do that. It was a challenge of self. I decided to skip over that period and go back to
00:13:21
Speaker
my lessons and learnings from childhood and through my industry experience and my education and like this is what led me on the path you know and parts of that chapter I will always appreciate but I also felt like there's so much more to me that I need to embrace and use to move forward with what I've got right now and so I love those kind of inspiring moments and thinking of the past as a place of reference not residency. Yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
So the name itself, Cheval, is French for horse. I studied French couture and even our signature print is a toil, but it actually tells the creative journey and the reinvention of what had gone down in a very like playful and special way.
00:14:06
Speaker
But for me as a creator, I was like, this is an opportunity for a fresh start and almost like an artist would come out with an album and then you alter ego. And it's been a lot of fun. I was just really enthusiastic to step into that role. And it's not like I stepped into it. I'm like, no, looking back, I am moving on. It was actually a way to move forward. And it had some giddy up to it, you know, obviously. And then our signet is a unicorn Pegasus. And so,
00:14:35
Speaker
It's a lot of fun and the brand itself is a phrase. She is Cheval, but she is ongoing. She is whatever she wants to be. And so we loved that mentality. That's kind of how we run against the wind. I love it. Okay.
00:14:51
Speaker
I obviously speak to a lot of women who are entrepreneurs. That's my lane. But I would love to know because I was reflecting back on how quickly everything changed for you. And it was kind of like, and if you don't, you know, just to catch the viewers up, like you were employed by this company that you're now in this litigation.
00:15:10
Speaker
you know, situation with as a designer. And so you kind of got forced from being an employee to being an entrepreneur without having, like, without it being a conscious decision, should I say? Like, it was just like, oh, this is happening. And I can't imagine, I mean, most of us when we become entrepreneurs, and I shouldn't say, I mean, I'm sure there's lots of people who find themselves just like, oh God, here I am. But I don't relate to that. I consciously chose entrepreneurialism. And I knew what I was getting myself into. I had watched my mom and dad do it.
00:15:39
Speaker
What was that like for you? So hard. I am such a creator at heart and I love being a spokesperson and I love being a guest girl, you know, yes to everything, yes to the dress, yes to the mess, everything. And when I had to be like in the business role, I got a fast track to bootstrapping and realizing how important metrics are and measurements and P&L statements and
00:16:03
Speaker
accounting and all these things. And it's not that I avoided it. I just felt my time was better used in the drawing table. It's better over here. But I have an amazing business partner who just kind of approached it from the same mentality of work ethic and let's learn this stuff. And we knew going in we were going to make mistakes. And I think giving yourself that grace of failure is going to happen. We're going to have some setbacks. But learning from them, of course,
00:16:33
Speaker
is really important and I don't feel like it's about glorifying this hustle or anything like that but I will say you have to love to work. You have to love almost getting burned out and the fulfillment you get from putting in those kind of hours and bootstrapping is
00:16:51
Speaker
really soulful in a lot of ways. And I do hope to get to a scenario where we're not required in our business as much as we are right now. But it's kind of inevitable. We're bootstrapping, we look around, who's gonna do this work? Oh, it's us. It's us again. You and me. It's like, that's it. And thank goodness, if you have that shared mentality, you see it as a real good relationship. So it's wonderful to give acknowledgement and respect to
00:17:19
Speaker
really strong co-founder and business partner, but yeah, it's a journey in the making and I'm still learning, but I still, I don't know. I still feel like I'm not the best business person.
00:17:30
Speaker
I think that's how we all feel. Yeah. Every entrepreneur feels that way. Even when they're making, you know, billions of dollars, they'll be like, I don't know what I'm doing. Cause that's the joke. Like nobody really knows. Are there things that we can do best practices? Absolutely. But every business is so unique and every business owner is so unique. And I believe that you could sell shoes and I could sell shoes and we're two different people and therefore it's going to look like a completely different business model that could lead us to success. Right.
00:17:56
Speaker
I'm not selling shoes, but I used to sell handbags. That's another fun fact about me. I was a handbag designer for five years. I get what you do and I'm excited about what you're doing now. When I heard you speak a couple of days ago, you said this phrase, I'm going to say, you said, your rock bottom somehow had a trap door, which I loved. Who put that there?
00:18:17
Speaker
And I felt like you were referring to, you know, your out was to start designing shoes, maybe. Is that what you think, maybe? Oh, I should totally look at it that way now. No, I was saying like there's even the, there's something below. Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. But yeah, the trapdoor, thinking of it as like a, a shoots and ladders situation, we're getting out of it. I mean, that's way more healthy to think about. Well, that's where my brain went for you. I was like, oh, that's so, so tell me about the decision. Like, I really want to hear where were you? What was going on? Like,
00:18:46
Speaker
paint the scene for me when you were like, I know what I'll do. I'm going to reinvent myself as a shoe designer. I think it really was 10,000 foot view of, OK, here is a person, you know, looking at myself that has invested her entire life in dress design. Like I went all in on that, you know, and from from childhood exposure to education to all my industry experience before even signing that contract and to not be allowed to do that.
00:19:15
Speaker
I had to think about, okay, but let's think about what else I've kind of done that could transfer the skill set somehow. I love bringing joy to women. I love dressing them. I love that idea of a woman walking into a room and she just feels fabulous and you know her outfit, her dress, her shoes have something to do with it. But I like being that little part of it and shoes are also a very sentimental
00:19:40
Speaker
accessory. If they're on your feet, they're carrying you places, you know, you're walking your own special road. And so because again, I'm very attracted to these like sentimental designs, that was exciting for me.
Challenges and Joys of Shoe Design
00:19:52
Speaker
I also had never studied shoe design or the anatomy of a foot or anything like that. And so I kind of approached it of okay, well, there's still pattern making involved, there's still this design process of layering embellishment, you know, there's some similarities there. And I think in terms of
00:20:08
Speaker
reaching the muse, the girl that's right there that's inspiring me, this is probably something she might like. So that excited me. And I also tried other things that I don't feel like I was as good at, like some artistic things like canvases, print, all that stuff. And I think shoes also go great with the dress. So I was like, oh, this is a cute little tangent. So yeah, I talked to a few of my business mentors, and the number one thing they said was, if you want to make money, don't go into shoes.
00:20:38
Speaker
I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna do shoes. But you know, I think you also have to kind of approach it of what is the real mission? And yes, we need to become profitable and stay alive and stay relevant. But it needed to make sense for me as a creator, because I didn't just want to throw myself into something that I didn't feel like I'd have credibility. I think that's real important, because artists struggle with confidence all the time. And is this any good? And so at least with shoes, I was like, I think I have something to say here. So let's try it.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it is a different, it is a different, I'm going to use the word energy, I guess, when you have been really, really successful at one thing. And then now you're going to step into a different, like you're going to, you're going to put on this new thing. And I think about this with musicians all the time, obviously, but.
00:21:25
Speaker
Now I'm going to introduce myself in this new vein and I don't know if you're going to like it or not. Like that's got to be really scary because you've got so many eyeballs on you. It's so different. I can do something and fail and it's like 20 people saw, but it's a lot more pressure. It is like the stumble is scary. I feel society is society. I feel like society is becoming a lot more accepting and forthright with the setbacks.
00:21:50
Speaker
And I love that because I do think when you think about happiness and success, it all goes together, everything like the ebbs and flows. And really for me, success has been about moving from like mistake to mistake or failure to failure without losing the light and the enthusiasm for what I do. And a lot of people I don't think talk about that. Like we have so many great podcasts out there and there's so much great authority and takeaways.
00:22:16
Speaker
But we're also kind of taking advice from people that are on the other side of things. And I feel like your mindset is so different when you're on the other side versus when you're still in it. And to get up there and say, like, look, I haven't figured it out yet, especially the business part of it, but I am learning it to work in progress. And like, these are the things that kind of did not work out. But here are some things that did.
00:22:37
Speaker
So it's like they need to, there's a duality there. They need to coexist. And like, while I keep saying this, I don't know how many times I'm going to say it again, but I will. It like the nightmare persists, but so do we, you know, like you run alongside, you know, the grace and the grit go together. Sure. Yeah. 100%. So let's talk about it then. What has been your biggest
00:22:55
Speaker
like maybe learning curve or uh-oh with the shoe designer. Shoes, okay. I would say the biggest learning curve has really been in the inventory management, size runs, and fittings. That's three things, I'm sorry. But like when you have a product that is so different from dress design. Dress design, everything's tailored. Everything after the fact fits the girl. Like I don't believe you fit the dress, the dress should fit you. Like it should work for you and then it's tailored.
00:23:25
Speaker
Whereas a shoe, you really can't tailor a shoe. You can do some tricks with adjustments and things like that. But it's so tough because you have just as much versatility and diversity in the shape of a woman's foot that my front part of my foot is wide. My heel is wide. I don't like my ankle. There's a lot that goes into it. And so that is still a big guessing game for us and then learning
00:23:53
Speaker
how much inventory do we need to buy and in what sizes and it's really a guessing game like you can go off of other things on the internet of like oh we bought you know this many sevens and eights because that's our most popular size but but we have a ton of tens too you know and like you're just guessing yeah and then you're buying all this inventory and you have to store it
00:24:11
Speaker
and get through it, but then you have to turn it over and go to something new. And then you have people that want you to restock. And so like, it's really tough, but I appreciate that learning it is a lot of trial and error and being smart with your margins and all that. And really, we're just setting it to like, let's survive. Let's be in this and let's do it so that we can really build something bigger, you know? So that's kind of our mentality, but it's tough.
00:24:35
Speaker
Yeah, and to be transparent, that is why I stayed away from shoes. So I made handbags, and my manufacturer was in New Jersey, and he was always like, we can make, he knew I was a shoe addict. I'm a shoe addict, I love you. He was like, we can make shoes, Tiffany, do you wanna make shoes? He's still, we're on Facebook friends, I haven't made handbags in since 2017, it's 2024. He still pings me, Tiffany, when do you wanna, I miss you, I miss you. Shoes, questions, shoes? Or handbags, he would love for me to get back in the game in any regard, and I'm like, all right, I love you, and,
00:25:04
Speaker
But he would always tempt me with the shoes. And I was like, the idea of having to stock the size of handbags is just one size. So much easier. It's already hard enough. So I hear you. I can only imagine. That's a big learning curve. And the longer you end it, the more data you'll have.
00:25:18
Speaker
Absolutely. And then, you know, your community gets more, um, the feedback is so important. Sure. You know, it's not scary for us when she's like, Oh, it doesn't fit. Or, Oh, I wish you had this size. You know, like it's, it's really helpful for us. Yeah. R and D mode all day, every day. I'm like, we are in R and D as entrepreneurs, we are in R and D mode all day, every day. It never stops. That's right. It's not like, Oh, we're done there. No, it just continues. I love it. Okay. What was, um,
00:25:44
Speaker
You were, so when you were in the bridal industry, we were chatting before, you don't live in New York City anymore, but you were in the New York City hustle for quite a while and in the fashion industry. And I was only in the beauty industry in New York for about a year, but I very vividly remember the hustle and just how insane the grind is by all New Yorkers, because it's like, if you can't, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. Like if you won't do it, somebody else, 10 people behind you are ready to take your spot. So I'm curious how that kind of grind and that
00:26:12
Speaker
season that you were in that in such a like pivotal time of your life, twenties, early thirties. I'm curious how that has impacted how you are operating now as an entrepreneur.
Influence of New York and Essentialism on Business
00:26:22
Speaker
And like, did you learn anything from that that you're like, I'm not going to do that. Or I'm so glad I learned that because I need that skill right now.
00:26:30
Speaker
probably the latter, I appreciate the seasonality of life. And there are just these beautiful moments that come at the right time and you're in the right mindset or you've got the work ethic for it. And I really, I will always pay my respects to New York City and the years that I got to spend there and just be in it like every day, getting to work and just the environment around you is such, it's an enigma, but it is like magnetic, right?
00:26:59
Speaker
And you're of that age where you can just completely burn the candle at both ends. I'm like, let's see what happens here. So I love that. And I think it's important to really be exposed to levels of stress. I think stress is a good thing. And it definitely lets you kind of push the boundaries a bit.
00:27:19
Speaker
It's like you need these challenges to know your limits and then you need the limits to know yourself. It's like your boundaries can't come really first. You almost have to get a little burned or you have to know where those are to be able to establish them, which sucks because it's like a game of learning. You have to be a practitioner of it. You have to touch the fire to know it hurts. Sometimes you need to go touch grass if you need some humility in your life.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's just New York is amazing and we still get to go back there for a different kind of chapter. And now that I live in Florida, it's just really interesting because I've appreciated a little bit more of, I wouldn't say it's like the soft girl era, but I really cherish my alone time.
00:28:01
Speaker
Which is so funny because I've almost become a little bit more reclusive. I use social media to be social and show up. And then I get to go on these fabulous events where it's just like super extreme. But then the majority of my day is like, I'm just like in my little creative space. And it is such a blessing to have that kind of focus and attention. So I've really appreciated this new kind of chapter.
00:28:24
Speaker
can appreciate both both yeah we need both like if you're you know one who subscribes to like this the concept of masculine and feminine energy i'm like we need both for everything that we do we all have both we we need both especially as an entrepreneur there are things we have to do that require us to be in our masculine and
00:28:39
Speaker
Something i coined late last summer when soft girl era was trending on tiktok i was like i'm stepping into my soft ceo era and for me that meant. I was gonna continue to chase these big dreams of mine and show up in big ways and i was gonna be rested and i was gonna lead with intuition and i was gonna.
00:28:58
Speaker
say no a little bit more often i really challenged the good girl syndrome that was you know deep inside me as a louisiana southern girl and i was just i was gonna become the soft co and so i would love to know if you can if you feel like there's anything in your life right now that you like.
00:29:14
Speaker
That's my soft CEO era shining. Oh, I love that for you. I love hearing that too because making that pivot is a lot. If you're like a workaholic and you're just like a go-getter, you almost feel like you're not doing enough ever, you know, when you start to transition into that. But I feel like two things can be true. You can kind of still be real productive and also obey like a quality of life. 100%.
00:29:35
Speaker
I think my soft CEO side is a tendency to just want to be with my fiance and my dog and like have this kind of downtime and not feel like you have to constantly be on the go. And it's weird to do that when I'm basically starting over and like I'm back at the time where you do feel like you have to say yes to everything. And I relate to the fact that no is such a hard word.
00:30:02
Speaker
But I've tried to rephrase it that saying no to something means you're saying yes to something else, right? And it's usually something you're probably better at that is more, you can be more focused on or you're going to feel better about it. But it's always, it's a constant struggle. Like you have to remind yourself and like James Clear, Atomic Habbix, like the way you look at it in baby steps is really important. Not this like big massive change, even though that did happen for me.
00:30:27
Speaker
you know so i appreciate hearing that and it's a good reminder to see other people successfully doing it because then you know it's it's possible it's 100 possible and the one of the books i love atomic habits another book that changed the game for me and i actually read this book right before i left corporate america right before i became an entrepreneur
00:30:44
Speaker
And it's called Essentialism. Have you heard of it? No. So, so good. And what he shares is his story about how when he started holding boundaries and saying, you know what? I don't need to be in that meeting. Just give me the debrief after. And really took back control of his time. He became more productive, had bigger wins. And then eventually, everyone around him goes, oh, you know what? We're going to leave you alone. You actually must know what you're doing because the results spoke for themselves. Oh, that's lovely.
00:31:12
Speaker
Kind of my thread going into my soft CEO era, I was like, it's not about not making a big impact. It's about me finally at the age of 44, knowing what the heck I need to do to take care of myself and to make that big impact. What I can say no to and what I want to say yes to.
00:31:28
Speaker
It's just a level of confidence and power that I think really, probably, if I'm being honest, can only come with time and experience. Because like you said, we've got to touch the fire. We've got to be burned. We've got to find those edges and then be like, oh, that feels familiar. I'm not going to go any further in that direction.
00:31:43
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I'm going to have to add that to my list. I did read a book by Donald Miller that was life changing. It was about your story brand and it was so easy for me to understand because I was like, I feel like naturally this is kind of what's happened to me and that
00:31:59
Speaker
I've lost a lot of my tangible ways of relating to people the way I knew best. But I have ownership of my story, which has been really helpful and just feeling like I've still got this ownership. And that's a message I like to carry on for people.
00:32:18
Speaker
It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. It'll really empower you to like say no to some meetings. Be like, you know what? Just kidding. I'm not coming to that meeting. Can't make it. Can't make it. Just give me the debrief. Not a thing. What would you say to up and coming younger designers who are, you know, maybe where you were 10, 15 years ago, what would be your biggest piece of advice for them right now?
Advice for Young Designers and Nonprofit Work
00:32:38
Speaker
I probably would say trust what people do, not what they say. Simple and not very sexy of an answer, but I think it's important because a lot of times we're in rooms where people are just reassuring and
00:32:53
Speaker
talking the hot air, smoking mirrors. And I feel as a person that really trusts people and believes what they say, it's been a hard lesson for me. So if there's something that's happening where you're like, I would like to kind of see this in writing, or I have questions. And if you find that there's resistance there, I think that's a bit of a red flag. Yeah. It can make a big difference. So I would say that to the youngins.
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's so hard though when they're dangling the carrot that is everything you've ever that you think you've ever wanted. So I think it's also important. So the name of this podcast is called this or more and the concept is I work with a lot of successful women who have built up something really impressive. And yet that fear keeps nagging at them like what if it all goes away tomorrow? What if I ruin this? What if it all comes crumbling down?
00:33:43
Speaker
So I started saying on a repeat basis to my clients, it's this or more. Wherever we are right now, it's this or more in the future. We're not going backwards, right? And I think it's a similar concept with young artists who may be feeling that they're scared to rock the boat, they're scared to stand up for themselves, they're scared to use the voice. I would just encourage you to remember it's this or more. So if this deal falls through, a better one is on the horizon. I love that.
00:34:06
Speaker
That's that's a wonderful way to look at it. I think imposter syndrome, which is in that same vein, can be helpful at times because it gives you a bit of humility in that there is something to say like it could be gone, like something could happen. And if it does,
00:34:25
Speaker
you will persist, you know, like you will move on and you will find another way to get ahead or to still be here, be present and find a way to create so that this or more makes me feel like you can be really mindful still and not be so worried about what could happen as conspiracy theories we have about ourselves, you know.
00:34:42
Speaker
So I love that. I call them toxic dragons, those little limiting beliefs in your ear. They're like, if you mess this up, you're never going to make it. It's like toxic dragon and it's our job to tame the dragon, not slay the dragon. I was going to say, we slay that dragon. No, no, we tame it. We make it our best friend. We put cute little rhinestone collars on it and it becomes our bestie because it never goes away. We never get to a point where we're like, I don't have any fears and doubts in the world. Bullshit. Like we're always going to have
00:35:10
Speaker
to speak to Humposter syndrome. For me, that means I want something bigger or more than where I am now. Hopefully, that never stops. I hope so too, yeah. It's a good thing. It's a healthy dose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we tame the dragon. So we tame the dragon. So we learn how to be like, I hear you and you're just hungry. Let me feed you. Sit down. You know, we've got this. Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah.
00:35:30
Speaker
You have a nonprofit that you've started throughout all of this process. And I know that part of your missions and goal there are to pay it forward with your lessons learned. But can you tell us a little bit more about you might know a girl and how what your impact you're hoping to make is with that? We really want to just provide advocacy and safeguard the interests of young creators, artists, designers, influencers, whatever stage of their journey they're in, where those big opportunities come or those contracts they don't understand.
00:35:57
Speaker
And a lot of deterrence come from either financial burdens where you can't afford a lawyer or you feel like you have to do X to get to Y. And I think just sharing our experiences and what can happen, especially in my case, you'd never think that this would happen, but it did. So the experience-based content I think is important because
00:36:19
Speaker
It's a real adventure through experience and it's a real mistake and you know really smart people they learn from their own mistakes, but I think the wisest will learn from others and That's kind of what we want to do. So we've got three parts to it It's about providing legal resources or referrals to pro bono or more affordable attorneys in law firms there's a grant that gives money to a young creative or entrepreneur once a year to help with
00:36:46
Speaker
anything they could possibly need, but especially in safeguarding their interests. And then the third part is the experience-based curriculum and content and sharing those female stories or any stories that can really impact from a vulnerable and kind of mistake standpoint. Because those need to be shared and celebrated, not to glorify them or romanticize them, but to champion this idea that you can move forward from it.
00:37:13
Speaker
Yeah. 100%. I love that so, so much. That's beautiful. Thank you. So.
00:37:20
Speaker
I feel like obviously that's a silver lining of what's come out of this, but we talk a lot and in Japanese culture, there's this concept that when a piece of pottery breaks, they mend it back together with like gold or silver, dusted, right? And it becomes a more beautiful object afterwards than it was before. And so I can't help but kind of think about that analogy with your story. And I'm curious if you feel like on the other, you know, even though we're not on the other side of it yet, but here we are, three, four, almost four years in, like,
00:37:49
Speaker
Are there areas in your life where you're like, I know that this is happening because of that terrible thing that's went down that we can kind of celebrate and see as the beauty underneath, if you will. I love that. It's wear and tear. Wear and tear is such a great word for me, not just because I love upcycling old clothing, but I think there is something to that of
00:38:12
Speaker
the experience and the wisdom that comes from it and the fortitude, because when you do go through a trauma or a setback, there's a tendency to feel like, well, if it, it was because of the trauma that I'm stronger, right? But I think phrasing it in a way that it's like, actually the trauma made me traumatized, let's be honest here. But what it required of me was already in there and these people that showed up for me in my support system and then having this homage of like,
00:38:39
Speaker
these things were here for a reason and now they've become stronger for it. And so the fortitude that comes, the character building, and then what you go through is not as important as who you become and what you're going through. So that's kind of like, am I still a good person? Do I still love sparkle? Even with the darkness, and yes, I am. So it's like, okay, I'll take it. Yeah.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's beautiful. When you think about your definition of success now, has that changed? Oh, yeah, for sure. And I feel like the success for me has been like, I have gone through all this stuff and it has been tough, right? And there have been really dark moments. And I have reinvented, but I feel like I haven't lost myself, right? I feel like I've actually just rediscovered and discovered more of who I actually am and what I'm not willing to do.
00:39:28
Speaker
And what I am willing to do, even if I'm willing to fail, right? And like, okay, then I failed, but I'm going to keep moving on, you know, or moving forward. Yeah. So yeah, I would say that that's kind of success is it's like, you know, it's not this big celebratory moment of I've made all this money and I have all this stuff to show for it. It's more of like,
00:39:48
Speaker
My soul feels pretty good having gone through all of this stuff and I still feel like I can have resolve in knowing I can still create and I can still show up for other people just as they showed up for me. It's a really nice harmony of things and the darkness is still there. Yeah, can you catch us up to speed? Is there anything you can share about where we are?
00:40:12
Speaker
you know, team getting back your name. I mean, it's been, oh, I love you.
Complex Litigation and Financial Perspectives
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's been three years of litigation, but actually my former employer has filed for bankruptcy. So that puts a whole nother facet into this. Karma. It's an ongoing, but yeah, it is honestly, like I've always said that karma is currency in a way. And for me in getting through this, having faith that the truth is going to come out and that it like,
00:40:39
Speaker
There is something that's going to happen here that is going to give justice to, I think, the casualties, which have been the brides. It's been the stores. It's been the industry. It's been the economy. It's been all these bigger things than just me and a business, in my opinion fully. But now that we're in a bankruptcy court, it does make it very interesting because while you can be real creative, I feel in a
00:41:04
Speaker
I feel like when it comes down to just brass tacks of here are the numbers, maybe there's some light at the end of the tunnel and I do pray for that every day. But more so, I wanna make up for lost time. And that's all I wanna do. I really do. And I feel like I am with shoes. It's been a blessing. I can't say that that's not been the most exciting wind.
00:41:30
Speaker
I'm good. I'm good. I love Cheval, and I'm wonderful with that and excited and energized by that, but I'm also open to whatever could happen. And for me financially, that's probably been, psychologically and financially, been the biggest tolls. But in a way, it's just money.
00:41:49
Speaker
Yeah. I probably shouldn't say that as a business person, but it's like. Well, no, it's actually probably a very healthy standpoint too. We talk, you know, we talk a lot about being neutral around the idea of money because when you, when you hold it in too high of regard, then it becomes this thing that it feels hard to get and that's not good. And then if you are dismissive of it, then what happens is you'll just keep making it, but it'll keep going away. So the neutrality part is great. We love that.
00:42:12
Speaker
I feel like you can always, like maybe this is silly, but you can always take more money. I have to let you in. I have to let you into my ridiculous Cheetos story. Oh, please do. So when I was healing my own money mindset situation in like 2017, 2018, I was like, man, I got a real toxic relationship with money and I want to work on it. I want to make this better.
00:42:33
Speaker
I have a joke with one of my oldest and dearest friends, and I really wish I could remember where it came from, but we were trying to neutralize money, and I was trying to get around this concept that it was hard to make money, because I was realizing that was my toxic dragon that I was trying to tame. It's hard to make money, and I was like, no, it's easy, but that didn't feel right just yet. I had to really viscerally start to feel that in my body. So we made a joke that money is like Cheetos.
00:43:01
Speaker
And probably because if you think about the most ridiculous snack in the world, come on, it's gotta be Cheetos. It's like bright orange, turns your fingers orange. It's so silly, whatever. And so we were like- And delicious. And delicious. We were like, money is like Cheetos and Cheetos are everywhere. I can walk into the grocery store, Cheetos. I can go into the 7-Eleven or the corner store, Cheetos. I can go into the gas station, Cheetos. So easy. So I started tucking little bags of Cheetos all over my house. I would open my cabinet for my coffee mugs, Cheetos.
00:43:29
Speaker
And I was just trying to get to this motion of like, Cheetos, like money is easy. And so then people would send me Cheetos, like to my doorstep, or I would do the same to them. If I heard them struggling with money, I'd be like, I got a surprise for your daughter. It would be a bag of Cheetos. And it's just this like laughable, silly thing. But I swear to you that it helped me get over this, this idea that money is hard.
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah, I love that too. And not to say like, you know, I guess I want to say this in a way that it's, I know it's very important to pay your bills and be a tax paying person, you know, of course. But I also just feel like.
00:44:06
Speaker
having incredible relationships with people and having a gift that you can give and practice and doing all these things. It's a big picture. And feeling like something is so delicate or that something could be taken so easily and it would just destroy your whole life is such a scary mindset to me.
00:44:27
Speaker
I like the idea of just reminding you that your opportunities are still there. It is not lost for you no matter how old you are, no matter how many setbacks you have. So many entrepreneurs that are really, really successful now don't talk about these moments where they had no money, where they went broke, or something happened to them and they somehow made more. They somehow figured it out and you will too. You will too. You deserve it too. You deserve the Cheetos. I like it. All the Cheetos in the world.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's really just consistently showing up day after day after day. I think that's how you win in life and in business. So can you tell us what's next? What's on the horizon? Oh, what's next? So obviously it's kind of a moving target.
Future Plans and Brand Expansion
00:45:07
Speaker
I don't know how to say it. It's ongoing with this lawsuit. And so I really don't know what to expect, but I've not tied myself to any outcomes. I'm going to assume the worst.
00:45:16
Speaker
And so for me, being really focused on the rebrand and moving forward with shoes and other accessories and product lines has been great. But I've really enjoyed speaking because at first, I'm like, okay, am I talking too much about this? But then I was like, for how many people have been through something similar or felt like they shouldn't have signed a contract or they're under an NDA or a non-compete that's debilitating to their work life.
00:45:43
Speaker
Having a community that feels a setback that needs to move forward, I think we need to do it together. So sharing the stories and finding a way to talk through it, but then also make actionable things happen because so many people stop at information. That's going to be a weaving of our business as well as our foundation moving forward is doing more of the empowering and
00:46:06
Speaker
I'm not an authority, but I do like having the conversations and saying like, this is what happened for me. It's going to be different for you, but it's going to be exciting and you're going to get through it. Yeah. Yeah. And we need to see, you know, circling back to how we started this conversation, but like we need to see proof in the pudding, you know? Yes. We need to see that example of someone who is still standing.
00:46:27
Speaker
Absolutely, we do. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, tell everybody, how can we find you? How can we buy your shoes? All of the good things. All the things. So we are sheashaval.com, sheashaval on Instagram. And then I have my original, it was a podcast account, actually, but really all the glitters on the gram. It was all the glitters podcast. But yeah, we are not doing it anymore for a magnitude of reasons. But maybe someday I'll get back to it. But I like being a guest on podcasts more so than yeah. So
00:46:54
Speaker
You're a lovely host though, I should say. Thank you. I'm so glad I got to meet you this weekend. It's been a pleasure. Again, I'm just so grateful for you for being so brave to share the story because I just think you know this already, but the ripple effect is going to be something that will be part of your legacy. I planted a seed the other day that I think a book should be in your future at some point when you're on the other side of all of this.
00:47:20
Speaker
It's a beautiful story, I think. And everyone loves a comeback story. Heck yeah! Everyone loves a comeback story. I love that little ripple. Hopefully we raise the tide of it, you know, in a good way. Yeah, in a great way. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me.