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Branding Brilliance + Building a 7-Fig Agency with Suzie Lawson
109 Plays6 months ago
Ever wondered what it takes to build a brand that truly stands out? Suzie Lawson, founder of Lawson House, built a 7-figure agency in just 4 years. Her expertise? How to create a stand out brand. Join Suzie and I for a candid conversation around the power of branding as an entrepreneur and how you can create a stand out brand in just 38 hours! Tune in for the juice.
We discuss:
- The mindset shift from freelancer to CEO
- What to look for when hiring team members
- When is the right time to build your website?
- The most common website mistakes and how to fix them
- The key elements of a good brand
- How to launch a brand in 38 hours
- When you should switch to outbound marketing
- Do quizzes work?
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Transcript
Introduction to 'This or More' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi there, in today's episode of This or More, we dive into the world of branding and marketing, two of my favorite topics, with Suzy Lawson, the founder of Lawson House, a full-service marketing agency.
Suzy Lawson's Entrepreneurial Journey
00:00:10
Speaker
We explore Suzy's journey into entrepreneurship and extract really valuable insights into how she built a seven-figure agency in just four years.
Branding and Marketing Strategies
00:00:19
Speaker
We also dig into some effective branding and marketing strategies for small business owners and personal brands. And we talk about when inbound marketing is best and when it's time to switch your focus to outbound
Common Website Mistakes
00:00:30
Speaker
marketing. Oh, and do you want to know the most common mistake she sees business owners make on their websites? We share that juicy nugget. Plus, does launching an entire new brand in one week sound appealing to you? Don't go anywhere. We're sharing that and so much more.
Introducing Host Tiffany Napper and Podcast Goals
00:00:46
Speaker
Welcome to This or More, a wild entrepreneurial podcast adventure for bold and brave creatives like you. I'm Tiffany Napper, your host, holistic business coach, corporate music industry dropout, a seasoned five-time multi-six figure entrepreneur, yoga instructor, and your go-to gal for heart-to-heart coffee chats. On this show, we're not just here to share stories. We're here to ignite a fire within you and make you realize that the reality you envision is just the tip of the iceberg. You're wildly capable of achieving that reality and so much more. So my friends, grab your cup of inspiration, settle in, and let's dive into another inspiring episode of This or More.
Meeting Suzy Lawson and Starting Lawson House
00:01:30
Speaker
Hi, Susie. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan, obviously. So I'm so honored to be on. Okay. So for those listening, Susie and I go way back. We met in 2020, uh, inside a collective six one five, which is a coworking space in Nashville, Tennessee and all women's coworking space and Nashville, Tennessee. So we've known each other for several years. Susie, now you're in Atlanta. Yes, I am. Yeah. Miss Nashville a lot, but I was happy to be closer to family. Yeah. Love it. And tell us a little bit about... Because when I met you, 2020, everyone now, you know we all hear the words 2020. We know what that means. So when I met you, obviously the world was kind of upside down. And you, if I'm not mistaken, were at the very beginning of kind of starting your agency, Lawson's House. Yeah? So actually, my first day that I quit my job and
00:02:21
Speaker
I went into my husband's office and I was like, we need to go celebrate. I'm so excited. I'm finally doing it. He was like, we have to celebrate at home. Everything just shut down. What? It was actually the day that everything closed in Nashville. So it was great at the peak of everything. um And it was quite a wild way to get started.
Transition from Corporate to Creative Agency
00:02:40
Speaker
Yes. So tell us a little bit about what what prompted you. What made you decide, I'm leaving because you had a corporate job for like, you know, you worked for a company. what What was the prompt for you that said, you know what? I think it's time for me to go out on my own. I think it's time for me to to give this a try. Yeah. I really felt like, um, so I'm very type A, I'm very organized and I love process. And I felt like in corporate, I was really being pushed towards more of an administrative track.
00:03:08
Speaker
I was doing more of the project management route. I was having a really hard time breaking into some of these creative roles. Kind of my options were if I wanted to break into creative was to take an entry level role and I had already started to build this track and was told by some people, hey, you know, you really should just keep pursuing more of this um process side. And I really wanted to go for more of the design creative
From Freelance to CEO
00:03:33
Speaker
side. So I started to take on some freelance work, see if I liked it, and it became a passion. I thought about it all the time. I was constantly thinking of logos for things where no one had asked my opinion. Same. I still do that. I do drill boards a lot. Exactly. And finally, it was like, you know, if I want to do this, I can go out on my own and try this. I was making an F-rem
00:04:00
Speaker
these one-off jobs that I was taking to kind of take the jump. And I worked for some people who had done freelance things and had said, hey, you actually could make this. The other benefit I had is I wasn't making that much money. So I always think it's so much harder when you're leaving a big corporate career that you have built. Truth be told, it wasn't like I had to fill this giant gap. yeah And so I kind of jumped at the right time and I had enough clients to fill that gap. So it really was more of me wanting to get into that creative space after being Roblox. I love it. and And so in a way, you know, we all, I feel, I feel like everybody's story is like there was some sort of a ceiling there, you know, whether it was in title, in salivary, in creative freedom, there was a ceiling that we were just like, I'm not okay with this ceiling. So I'm going to go create my own. Yeah, obviously yeah they really wanted me to go more like HR and the process side of things, which
00:04:52
Speaker
I mean, love the opportunity. I learned a ton and it benefited me so much later when we started to grow the team. and I really fell in love with the whole design process and that's really where my heart was. I love it. Okay. We're going to talk come back to team in just a minute because I do want to talk with you about that. But let's, before we get there, obviously, so you you went out on this, on this, you took this leap of faith and you started this business and it was a challenging season. But tell me a little bit about those first couple of years as you were growing the marketing and branding agency and What were maybe some of the biggest, maybe even like the biggest unexpected pitfall you experienced in those early days? One thing I think a lot of entrepreneurs had is they know what they're good at. They have this idea. um Everything feels like, how am I going to package this? How am I going to do this?
00:05:39
Speaker
And then you hit this roadblock of, but how am I going to get clients? And you start to feel like, oh, man, no one no one knows I'm out here. Six people are visiting the website. And I'm pretty sure it's my mom. I'm not sure how to you make this happen. And I was lucky enough to find Collective 615 and really started to build a community there that ended up just helping me break into some of that network. But first, it was really trying to overcome the fear that every client was my last client. Yeah. and feeling like this is all going to fall apart. This isn't going to keep going. And so my husband and I had just a whiteboard up of how long can we keep this going? So anytime I closed a deal, I was like, we have one more month.
00:06:22
Speaker
and um If you were around in those early days, your name was up in our house. Another month of freedom. Um, so it was a really exciting time, but it was a lot more week to week, month to month than it is now. Um, and we didn't have that big vision. It wasn't like, uh, I'm going to grow
Vision and Launch 38 Project
00:06:41
Speaker
this big business. It wasn't until eight months after I started it that my dad said, Oh, how's your business? I was like, business this is crazy Um, it wasn't a title that I had in my head. So I think in the early days, it was just kind of getting used to this idea of, okay, there is competition and there is, um, a sales process here and there are contracts and things that I just had never wrapped my head around. And I just wanted to design logos and there was this world I had to learn.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that's fun. I would love to know when, was there ever a time, and i'm I'm not going to make an assumption, so maybe you still don't identify it with it, but was there a time when you started to identify with now you're not just a business owner or you're not just a brand designer, but now you're a CEO? Yeah, I would say it was when we first hired W2 employees. That was a big moment for me, having a team and having them say, Hey, where are we going? it ah What's the moment that I was like, I think I'm in charge. I think I need to actually figure this out. And luckily I'd seen some really amazing people in that Collective 615 community. You included just people who were doing it differently.
00:07:56
Speaker
yeah So I think in my head, I had said CEO Fortune 500, they're at the top, no one knows them and wanted to, I was lucky enough to get exposed to some people who were a lot more tactical boots on the ground CEOs and just watch them and kind of see what are they doing. and And again, it was same thing as kind of shifting from freelancer to business owner and then saying, okay, I think I'm think i'm running this now. But it all happened after the fact. Yeah, of course. And the, in the years that, you know, as you evolve and you grow and you mentioned your vision in the beginning and how that wasn't your vision in the beginning, what do you feel like is your vision at this stage? Like here we are fast forward. You've got a great team in place and you know, you've grown us into a seven figure agency. What, what, what's your kind of vision for it now? Yeah. You know, it's hard to say because I think so much is changing.
00:08:48
Speaker
We really launched launch 38 with this idea of kind of going backwards a little bit. um So we scaled everything up really fast. We three X year every year, three years in a row. And with that, the team and just all of a sudden found ourselves in a spot where we were working with these bigger brands. And we kind of priced ourselves out of working with one-on-one amazing entrepreneurs who sometimes just have an idea and they're my favorite people to work with. And so the vision became how do we make entrepreneurship more accessible to people? How do we go back and create some of the programs that I wish I had had in the beginning or that we see such a need for in the market?
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about Launch 38 because you've you've mentioned it and if you've been on my newsletter, you maybe are familiar with this term and you've seen me talk about it. I've i've actually gone through the process to launch ah you know launch the new and improved version of Make That Money Honey. It's got its own brand identity now thanks to Launch 38. Let's talk a little bit more. First, give everybody an understanding of like what is Launch 38. Let's start there. Yeah. So to do that, I'll give the backstory. My initial vision, gosh, a a year ago, was to create a course that in 38 days, somebody could go through and create their brand. They could create their website. They could create their messaging and their social media plan. And in 38 days, walk away with their whole business. And the reason that I wanted to
00:10:15
Speaker
The reason that I wanted to create that was because I got so road blocked by myself in the beginning. I would say, I'm going to work on my logo today. Well, then a client calls and they're paying your mortgage, not your logo. So you can't ever work on your own business. So I started to work on this course and we started to say, how can we put this together? And everybody that we ran it by said, Oh, of course. Hmm. And we just didn't have anybody get super jazzed about it. Nobody's jumping up and down about it. And and people were like, oh, have you seen Zones as course? We found that there was just a lot of people who had done this. So we got together as a team and it was kind of a vulnerable moment. but I was like, what what else can we do with this? I don't think anybody's excited about this. Somebody said, well, you used to do a website in a day. Could we do this?
00:11:03
Speaker
smaller, could we do it for somebody faster? What if we did the course for them? And as a wall, how fast do you think we could do that? So our whole team starts adding up all these hours and we said, we actually could do it in 38 hours. So we said, instead of 38 days, what if we gave people that time back and in five days, day one being logo or a messaging day to being your logo, day three being your website and day four being your content, getting everything launched in five days, Could we get you that time back and could we get everything launched and ready to go?
Building Brands and Investing in Branding
00:11:34
Speaker
we ended up going with that because If if you talk to most entrepreneurs, they don't say and I really want to be a website designer, right?
00:11:43
Speaker
shouldn' do the business i'm starting yeah no So It ended up when we ran it by some people who we had run the course by, they were like, no, that's it. That's really what you are, what is missing in the marketplace is somebody who can do this quickly. And I said, the other piece that's missing is, is it affordable? And that was the piece that we were able to bring in as well as say, Hey, don't over invest yet. Make sure that you have exactly what you need to just launch or relaunch a project or a program. Yeah, I love that so much. And in full disclosure, Susie's team also did my website a couple of years ago. I had to i had to upgrade from the Squarespace platform I was on to like whatever it is now, 7.1 or I don't know, 4.2, whatever it is. And it required a whole
00:12:28
Speaker
Rebuild of everything i had built for a decade and so susie's team did that for me and it was great but it it's not the cheapest thing in the world because it's labor intensive right so. If you're listening launch thirty eight is twenty five hundred dollars i'm gonna drop a link in the show notes below and also give you ah a discount code you can use to save two fifty but. It is such a genius concept that you guys came up with, and you're right. like i've never I had never heard of it. I was like, what? get you know Build a brand in a week? Sign me up. and so It's a really exciting thing, and I think you're right. like There was that missing component for small business owners. I want to talk about a little bit about what you just you just mentioned. because
00:13:07
Speaker
I also come from the branding world right i was in the had a brand new agency for ten years and everyone always ask me about you know. When do they build their logo when do they build their website how much should they spend on this and i used to be the first person to say hey look. Here's what I did. I had all that built while I had a corporate job, while I had a paycheck being automatically deposited in in my bank account. I was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pay for this now so that it doesn't feel like I'm starting off in the negative when I start my business. And I'm so grateful I did that. And I would say to you, if you're listening, I would recommend it again all over again. But I'm also very quick to say,
00:13:44
Speaker
don't go out and spend 20 grand on a brand until you've sold your service and you get more understanding of who you're selling it to because the mistake I made back then was I had prepaid for all of this, you know, and it was a beautiful brand and a beautiful site that served me for a few years, but I didn't really know who my target market was yet. didn't really learn until a couple years in and I looked up one day and I was like, man, most of my clients are men and my branding is kind of feminine. And if I had to do it all over again, I would have waited. And I would have done that once I kind of understood who my clientele was. So what's your thought on all of that? Like when is the right time to go in and build the thing? Yeah, I think that you can build it in stages. I mean, I don't think that
00:14:30
Speaker
I, my own story is a great example of that. When I quit my job, I didn't have a name. I didn't really have a plan. I called it Susie marketing in the beginning, which as much as I have become a branding and naming expert was my worst name I've ever given anything. here yeah But I was like, here's what it is. A lot of people thought marketing was my last name for awhile. Um, so we ended up changing it to Lawson house when I hired people and it was a big shift. yeah and more for me than anybody else. I wanted to change it. I wanted to make sure that it could be bigger than me and that it had room to grow. But I'm a great example of just because I named it that in the beginning doesn't mean that we couldn't change it later. And it did serve me for a while and it did have an ROI and everything that I put into that matter
00:15:17
Speaker
I didn't mean I couldn't change later. And so part of what launch 38 does is let people give you that just first stop that, Hey, don't overthink it. Don't let this be the reason you don't land my client. Let's go ahead and make some money and then figure out what you want to do. Yeah.
Hiring and Leadership Strategies
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think every entrepreneur that I know that's scaled and grown businesses to six and seven and eight figures has gone through iterations of that brand. And I but i was the same way. I changed my name maybe seven years into the journey. I changed the name and evolved the branding a little bit. We we kept some commonality. So it was still like,
00:15:52
Speaker
still you know not not a like what the heck is that But I did the opposite. I went from having an agency, like a name that didn't include my name, to naming my agency my name. um Another story for another day. But the point I think, if you're listening, is just to know that Make a decision. Just make a decision and go. You know, don't overthink these things. Don't sit on it for forever. And that's why I think launch 38 is so genius because it does allow you to kind of get out of your own way and just say, Hey, let's just get this thing off the ground and let's make it beautiful. And let's make it official and professional and not something we DIYed in Canva. And, um, yeah, so anyway, it's really genius. I want to come back around to what we mentioned a second ago about building the team and like when you changed your name to Lawson house is, was when you were. you know, growing the team. I have a lot of clients obviously who have teams or I work with them to help them hire and build their teams. And what I hear a lot in the younger stages, especially if you've never hired someone before is, Oh my God, it's so hard to find the right person. What are your thoughts on that? And how have, how has that evolved for you as you've gone from that first hire to maybe where you are now? Yeah, I think it depends on what you're looking for. I think a lot of people look for skill set.
00:17:06
Speaker
They're looking for technical ability. They're looking for people who can, they can buy back their time quickly. um And the luxury I had was that most of the people who had the skill sets that we needed right off the bat were too expensive. yeah And so when I looked at it, I said, okay, I can put all my eggs in one basket and just hire a rock star and hope that we can pay us both more. I can hire some younger people and I can invest in them over time and let them grow with me and pay them more over time and look for raw talent and eye for design and a hard worker. And those were the people that I found. I hired my first two and girls, Sadie and Caroline when they were right out of school. And I mean, talk about hard workers. They just hit the ground running, treated the businesses their own. It was just the three of us down and dirty for a little bit.
00:17:59
Speaker
And they were an app just turned into absolute rock stars. I mean, within 60 days, it was it just took some hand holding in the beginning of like, you're not coming in with Squarespace knowledge, you're not coming in with a ton of copywriting experience. But you also have more drive and more hunger for success than a lot of people out there. And so I think I got really lucky with them. They also were just mega talented. And uncovering that was so much fun. everything Here's where you're really passionate. Here's what you're amazing at.
00:18:33
Speaker
Okay. Now go do it. Yeah. Yeah. So giving them, you know, room in the lane, if you will, not being like, here's your lane, stick with it. You really were able to give them room to decide and learn what they're really great at. And then say, like you just said, like here's where you're great. I want you to do more of that. And then maybe that looks like, okay, now I've got to find someone to fill this little component of the business. Absolutely. And also, I think a lot of business owners are scared of not being the expert in the room. and Sadie is a better designer than I am. And I think a lot of people could get intimidated by why I've been our designer. And that is my role here.
00:19:13
Speaker
and Instead, I was like, you are on fire. You go faster and you put your headphones on and can get more done. I can go sell more and we can really grow this thing. And I know that's not for everybody, but we found such a good camaraderie there when I kind of took my hands up. Yeah, it said you go. Yeah, I think that's the the message. I ah hope if you're listening and it feels terrifying to hire someone or to step into the leadership role, I would say this. You are going to have to step into a leadership role period the end.
00:19:45
Speaker
I wish there was another answer, but there's just not, but it gets to be fun. It gets to be, it's is' all about how you approach it. Like being a leader, a lot of times we come into this scenario with like a bad taste in our mouth because we've had a bad boss. And I think more than anything, I would just say like, look at what you didn't love and and and decide to do differently. And then also decide that you get to decide what kind of leader you are and how you show up and how you lead and how you guide and what you do and what you don't do. And so it really does get to be fun. And I was really open with them about my inexperience of being a manager. Yeah. I never tried to, you know, say, well, here, let me give you our company vision. We would have a lot of meetings where I'd say, Hey, I'm a little stuck. What do you guys think we should do? Yeah. Or I, you know,
00:20:34
Speaker
I actually remember one time somebody came and asked me a question about salary. This was a little bit later. And I was like, you know, I don't know how to answer this. I'm going to go ask some smarter people with more experience. Yeah. And I'm going to get back to you and just not having to have all the answers. You have time. And I think a lot of people feel like soon as I bring someone in, they're going to see this whole mess. they're going to think that I don't know what I'm doing and the imposter syndrome comes up. But overall, I think if you are able to invite somebody in, be vulnerable with them, they will find that camaraderie appealing and help you grow this over time.
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah. I think the the key word there is be vulnerable because when we are vulnerable, then they feel they feel connected in a way that bonds them to the business, like you just said, and all of a sudden they show up and they care about it as much as, you you know maybe not quite as much, but almost as much as you care about it. It's hard for anyone to care as much about our business as we do. but Yeah, i think I think that's such a beautiful lesson. Don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Invite them into the decision-making process and make them feel like they're part of the journey because they should be. You want them to be. like More people you have on your team, the bigger you can you know the higher you can go. Yeah, and I think, too, look for where they have strengths that complement yours. And I think a lot of people just try to set out the stuff they don't want to do or that they feel like they're not good at.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah. Sometimes somebody can surprise you and come in and help you even, you make each other sharper rather than just subbing out all the things you don't have time for. Yeah. That's a good one too. I do think it's over, it's like a cliche almost like write down all the things you don't like doing and then hire for that role. And that's a good starting point, but but it's it's not quite that black and white, I'm afraid. Yeah. And especially if you're in a creative role, you know, I think about how much better my designs got, how much better a client work got when they came into the picture. Because for the first time I had people that I could go to and say, Hey, what do you think about this? yeah And they'd say, well, what if we move this picture over here? What if we did this over here? And I'm like, yeah, you're right. I'm, I've been working on this for 12 hours and you've come in with fresh eyes and it's made us better. yeah And so that's a fun part of it too, is just being on a team. It gets fun and it's not so lonely.
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah. Oh gosh. We always hear about people complaining about this journey of feeling lonely for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Now is the perfect time to hydrate or take a quick sip of your latte while I tell you about a tool that can help you on your journey. Is this your season of slowing down or is this your time to double down on making bank? Let's find out. My secret for knowing how to thrive as a business owner right now is simpler than you think. First, take a quick quiz to find out what CEO club you're in based on your personality and your current business status. Then I'll show you what you can do today to thrive in that club.
00:23:28
Speaker
Go to tiffanynapper dot.com forward slash quiz to take the quiz today. Welcome back. It's your host and coach Tiffany. Let's continue.
Defining Branding and Key Elements
00:23:37
Speaker
Okay. So let's talk a little bit about branding. Obviously this is an area that you shine in. So when someone, first of all, I would love maybe to just start with like for those, you know, sometimes the word branding people are like, what do you mean by that? What would you say is your definition of branding? What does that include for you? It's funny you say that one day I finally sat down and wrote down, What do I define branding as? Because so many people come to us and they're like, I need branding. And I'm like, okay, great. What do you want your logo to feel like? And they're like, Oh no, I love my logo. I just need branding. And I'm like, okay, great. So it really depends. I define branding as the combination of the words that make us do things, right? So the call to action and the visuals that make us feel things.
00:24:25
Speaker
Um, so another way to say that is the words are going to call someone to action, but the visuals give us an emotional reaction. Those two things brought together create a brand. And so if you have just a beautiful brand and it says something like innovative solutions, I have no idea what you do. Even though I think it's beautiful, but if I have something that's really sterile and bland and the copy is amazing, it's not going to evoke that same loyalty or engagement. And so you have to bring both of those pieces together in order to build that. Yeah. Okay. I love that. What do you feel like our, so since we just use that example of someone coming and saying, Oh, I don't need a logo. What, I mean, if we were to break it down, what do you feel like are the key elements? So we've got copy, we've got the logo, obviously, what else would you put in the key elements of, I used to call it like your branding kit almost, you know, like if this was your trunk and you opened it up and all these things are inside, this is what we put in your branding package.
00:25:22
Speaker
Yeah. So when I think about the visuals and the way you want people to feel, right? I think about in your brand, it's the user experience. So how is somebody interacting with your brand? Well, that's Instagram. That's your website. that is your client portal or your questionnaire. It carries throughout all of that. Slapping a logo on that isn't enough, right? If your questionnaire, let's say your copy on your website is super fun and you have all these fun, kitschy phrases on there, and then your questionnaire is super black and white, it's going to lose that client experience. So I think it's looking at it from that really high level of all the client touch points. I think you need a really strong color scheme.
00:26:02
Speaker
And that's somewhere where I feel like a lot of people overthink it. I typically tell people you need one signature color and then you can build the rest around it. But what is your color? What is the feeling you want people to have when they identify this with you? Yeah. So I would say those kind of pieces along with the logo, the messaging pieces like that. yeah and And then also just a, I think it's so important to have a first step for people. I don't think a lot of people include your call to action in your brand. One of the first touch point is I think has to be included in your overall brand identity. If that's a conversation versus a sales page, your brand is going to feel so different. And so I like to include that in the conversation when we talk about it.
00:26:48
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Yeah. So above and beyond tone of voice, above it and beyond like, you know, just basic copy, but like getting really specific, like what is your call to action? What is the first point of reference or first experience you want someone to have with you, even if it's an online experience, right? Yeah. I like to think about service-based businesses online, like I'm creating a physical space. So the sign on the door matters. The menu matters. The whole experience matters for walking through the space. Because if just the logo is cool and, you know, if we're picturing a coffee shop, right? If the logo is cool and the coffee tastes bad and all the chairs are broken, you're never going to go back. that was right hardlessed it The logo is amazing. So all of these key pieces come together to create that brand.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. I think, and you're right. Like sometimes people do really overthink some of these decisions when in reality, you know, yes, put some intention behind it. Think about like, I, like I mentioned, I didn't do, I didn't really know who my target audience was going to be at the time. Think about the target audience. And you know, if you're selling to primarily a male audience, you probably don't want pink to be your primary color in your logo. Right. Just think about that. But also don't ever think it. And if you are working with a branding expert, let them do some of your heavy lifting for you you. I feel like so many people came to us and felt like they needed to have all the answers because they were like, I don't want to waste my money. And I get that. I know that feeling of like, I'm invested in this, this can't miss, it has to work. And I take that so seriously. But at the same time, it's okay to say to an expert, I don't really know, can you help me research this and come up with some ideas?
00:28:31
Speaker
and let them do some of that homework. 1000%. My favorite thing I always say to people when I hire someone is when they're like, you know, I do this with my hairdresser, joking the test of this. He'll laugh if he's listening, because he's always like, you're my favorite client. But I'm just like, you're the expert. What do you think would look good on my head? And I do the same thing with everything related to my business. I'm like, I might have a general idea of where I want to go. And I can communicate that. And then I'll say, and then what do you think? Because you're the expert. And I think so many people would benefit from being just a little bit, it goes back to that taking your hands off the wheel just a little bit and trusting that the person you hired, you hired them for a reason. Yeah, absolutely. And all that to say too, give tons of feedback, right?
00:29:15
Speaker
Trust your intuition. If you're looking at the logo and you're like, something's not right, yeah let's tweak this. Here's what's coming up for me. Share that. Your brand designers, this is what they do all day is they're kind of half designer, half therapist. They want to get inside your head and hear your ideas and make sure that they can bring that to life. Yeah i love that i saw really great i wish i could remember who it was by but i saw this phenomenal instagram real where it was a designer and he was talking about how you know don't be afraid to give that input and the branding you know the branding ah designer on the other end.
00:29:49
Speaker
He isn't going to take it personal. and it was He was showing the feedback. He was showing the exact feedback he got from the client and where the logo was when he delivered that and they got that feedback. and Then what he went to the table and the tweaks that he made and where the logo evolved to. and At the end, he was like, they were right. like This is a better design. and and It was just such a good was a really good reel because it it made you realize like if we're both contributing equally and we both want the best possible outcome possible, then we should put our egos aside for a minute and just get creative and get curious um until it
Selecting and Working with Brand Designers
00:30:22
Speaker
feels right. Absolutely. And I think that that's where if you're interviewing a brand designer, one of the most important questions to ask them is not show me your previous work because when you think about it, their other clients have also gone through this process and you might not agree with what their clients would say, right? yeah Ask them about what is your creative process? How do you take me through this? What are the steps?
00:30:43
Speaker
yeah And you'll learn a lot about, okay, this is what this is going to look like. When I work with people on a house project or something, I always ask them, hey, what's your process? And if they don't have any room for feedback or anything like that, I'm like, oh, you don't, you're not really interested in my input here. And I always try to work with people who build in, hey, and then we sit down and we talk about it. Yeah. I just find that to be really helpful. That's a good tip for sure. Okay.
Effective Website Branding
00:31:11
Speaker
Speaking of branding, let's talk for a minute about websites. Yes. Okay. What do you feel like is
00:31:21
Speaker
Well let's start with like what do you think are the most common elements for someone to focus on when they're if they're if they're sitting there and they're listening they're like I'm gonna give my website a little audit based on this conversation. What would you say is that are the elements that they should focus on when when you know branding website building a website. Yeah, I would say number one. So we do free website audits all the time. And where I always start is, um do you have your logo in the left hand corner? Always pick on people. Do you have your logo or if not right there, super close. Because if you go to design school, they tell you your eyes, move in a Z formation. Most of us have heard that before.
00:32:00
Speaker
but no one's surfing the internet anymore. And so when you go to a website, you are automatically, I mean, this is total subconscious looking for, am I in the right place? And if people can't find out who you are quickly, they're on and they disappear. and It's why it's so important to just make sure that it's clear who you are. So that's not, honestly, I think a lot of people lose website traffic right there. The next thing is changing up that main copy on your website. We call it the switch from we provide to you deserve. You are talking to one person at a time, maybe two, if you know you have people looking together, potentially interviewing you, but that is so rare. Most of the time it's one-on-one on their phone or on their computer saying, Hey, who is this? And you get a chance to speak to them one-on-one. What most people do is write their website, like they're talking to a conference from a stage.
00:32:56
Speaker
And it's, Hey, here's who I am. Here's what I do. Here's how I fill everybody in. But if you can switch that and instead of saying, we provide a beautiful homes with interior design services and say, you deserve a beautiful home. and That's why we provide exceptional interior design services. You pull that person in and you immediately light something up in their brain that makes them continue to scroll. So right there, we see people stay for an extra I mean, it doubles the time as soon as you get those two switches. I love it. Yeah. I always say, you know, it goes back to like someone wants to feel seen immediately. Like they want to feel like, Oh, this is for me. Okay. And then they'll keep scrolling. Okay. Now why should I care? Or why should I trust this person? And then that's when you can kind of go deeper into who you are or something like that. But immediately they need to go, Oh, this is for me. Right. It's also something I hear all the times. I don't want to sound salesy.
00:33:50
Speaker
I'm terrified of sounding salesy, which cracks me up because maybe I should be more afraid of sounding salesy. I think more people need to put themselves out there and be okay with the fact that they are offering a service in exchange for money. They're not fooling anyone. And so the clearer you can be about that, the better. The best way to not feel salesy though is to present your offering as a solution to a problem. And so rather than saying, Hey, you know, here's who I am. I offer these services that comes across as salesy, but saying, Hey, Tiffany, I see you and I think I can help you.
00:34:27
Speaker
That's not salesy. That's just a clear answer to a problem. Yes, exactly. oh Don't get me started on sales and selling the serving and all of the things. but yeah ah so Sales should be this exchange mutual exchange. You have a thing that you need, a desire, a problem that needs to be fixed. I have the solution. It's a puzzle piece, right? Absolutely. I love it. What would you say is the, so those are a couple, what, do you have one that's like the most common mistake you see on a website? Here's the most common mistake that I hear people make. I don't see it and you'll see why in a second. I think people don't launch because they think it could be better. Um, and this, what is the, um,
00:35:13
Speaker
ah seeking perfection on their
Marketing Strategies and Adaptability
00:35:16
Speaker
website, right? It could always be better. And then they see something else because the internet is full of shiny things. We're always being pulled to her website. So beautiful. What if I want more high end black and white? Maybe I should rethink this. Maybe my clients are looking at that and you are the one analyzing all of this. yeah When people don't launch something, when they don't put it out there and they just say, you know what? I'm going to continue to make it better over time. I watch people lose money every month because they put it off and put it off and put it off. Yeah. So good. So true and so good.
00:35:49
Speaker
Okay. Let's switch to marketing for just a moment because you're also a big marketing guru and marketing strategies. I mean, there's so many these days back to the shiny internet, right? um There's so many these days, but what do you feel like are just the most effective marketing strategies or tactics that you see consistently bringing results for your clients? Yeah, so such a hard question because by the time that we launched this episode, it could change. I like to tell people it is your best marketing strategy until it's not keeping up with trends. Signing up for a couple of newsletters who they will talk about, hey, this is working really well. and It's really important to kind of stay on top of it. I'll give a good example. We use cold LinkedIn DMs a lot.
00:36:40
Speaker
And it worked really well for us last year. We were growing like crazy. Our attraction was incredible. For one of our clients, we had 3,000 people sign up for their newsletter in 90 days. wow And so it just blew up. And then it didn't because LinkedIn changed the rules and people started to say, I'm tired of my inbox on LinkedIn being filled with this. I don't want people doing outreach to me here. And the overall tone changed. The market got too saturated. So we pivoted. And we've tried a lot of different things. Cold outreach, I still swear by. I think that in a lot of different channels, it still works really well. I know that it is people talk about people being scared of sounding silly. People are like, I don't want to annoy people. I know. But I tell people it's the right place, right time play. If you are in search of a website and we email you at the right time.
00:37:29
Speaker
We have been told, hey, you solve my problems. I'm glad you reached out to me. yeah And it's great feedback. yeah We also have um deviated away from ads and actually started to really lean into boosted posts. And that's performed really well. and It's lower budget. It's easier to manage. And it seems like the algorithm is promoting that a lot more. So those are some recent things we've been trying. I love it. Yes, I love it so much. And it's so true how, and we have some audience Q and&A I'm going to get to you in a minute. I pulled some of my Instagram, my Instagram audience, and they they shared a question that's got a circle back around what we just said. But I think we can go even deeper into it. but
00:38:09
Speaker
It's so true. like And especially this is 2024, especially we're noticing that what worked in 2020 isn't working in 2024. And it's funny because when i I did a webinar in March, April of 2020, and I was talking a lot about how what you did last year doesn't work anymore because it we're in a different state of mind, the world is in a different place.
Using Quizzes in Marketing
00:38:33
Speaker
and That mentality really can just be rinsed and repeated probably every couple of years, especially with the amount of technological change we're experiencing as like as a as a whole right now. right
00:38:47
Speaker
right now we're dealing with like this huge surge of AI coming on the scene and what's that going to do to things and and all of that jazz. I personally just launched last week or no this week I don't know what day it is but recently a few days ago we launched a huge quiz at new top of funnel marketing strategy for us It's been on my list of things I want to do for two years. We finally got the monkey off my back. And I'm so, so thrilled with it. But it was a pretty huge lift if I'm being honest. where We went really thorough with ours. um What are your thoughts? I'd love to know your thoughts on quizzes. We'll start there. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that overall lead gen really breaks down into that inbound versus outbound rate and kind of picking strategies in each. I love that you're doing that quiz. I think you do a phenomenal job with inbound marketing. I think that and it's something that you guys have clearly heavily invested in and bringing those people in. And that works really well for you to nurture them in that community, bring them in and start to kind of build their trust over time. For you too, I feel like it's convincing people, hey, there's something better, right? And painting that vision for them. For a lot of people who are in the service-based industry, and I say this specifically to any wedding professionals listening, a lot of times there is a time-bound thing that has to be solved.
00:40:02
Speaker
And if you are in that kind of industry outbound as your best friend, we found that inbound, no offense to any other marketing agencies out there, your newsletter isn't anyone's like waiting by their inbox. but and hoping that they have your wisdom on all this. And so the best thing you can do is to make it fun. But I would say if you are in kind of a service space where you are selling for a need and selling to solve a specific problem, that they are going to be bidding other people against you, outbounds your best friend. And so there's a lot of different ways to do that. Having a combination of all of them is the best, but I would say overall, when you see something that's not working, pulling the plug on it and pivoting is the best strategy. yeah And if you are working with a marketing agency, making sure that that's their approach to, hey, if they just do SEO or they just do something that might not be working for you, you say, hey, it's not working. What else you got? yeah yeah but excuse me Yeah, because inbound, I mean, when we're looking at what the options are for the for the longest time, it was lead magnets and lead magnets worked. And and you know again, so important to note that like different industries, different things are going to work. Even in the same industries, two different people are going to have two different things work. But if you are a product-based business, for example,
00:41:22
Speaker
it still is very, very ah effective for you to have a simple discount code that you offer for someone to join your newsletter or a free shipping. If they join your newsletter, I'm sure you have you know experienced that and signed up for that and let that be assigned to you that that still works. maybe You own an agency like Susie was saying, you know, there's different approaches. If you are a business coach like me or someone who you can come into my world at any given time and it's not, it's not, I'm not like, you don't have a dead deadline staring at you. Like your know your wedding date isn't coming up or yeah or what have you. So I do get the,
00:41:57
Speaker
I have the fun but process where sometimes people are in my orbit for years before they hire me. Sometimes they're in my orbit for hours before they hire me. And that's why we have several different kind of inbound and outbound marketing approaches. But I think that's all really good, really good and valuable. Is there anyone where you've seen using quizzes and you're like, oh, I think quizzes really work for this type of industry or clients that you've worked with? Yeah, I think the quizzes work really well when you are in an industry where Presenting the problem is something that people can't articulate. So when I think about the kind of work that you do or business coaches or anybody who is working with somebody who if you said, hey, what are you looking for? They can't put it into words, but they're experiencing these pain points. yeah Quizzes are awesome because you can say, hey, let me help you with that. I'm going to put words to what's keeping you up at night.
00:42:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's good. and And I think it's also good if you've got like to to to riff on that. like If you've got a couple of different offers and you you're having a hard time getting them to understand which offer is best for them, and if you could do a quiz that dials that in for them through a couple of questions that you might would ask on a discovery call, for example, but you want to kind of like start to automate that, I wonder if a quiz could work in that in that scenario too. yeah Quizzes really help you, um, if you were trying to build an email list where you were going to start to filter people out and you were going to build out these email sequences, they're specific to that. And that's where anytime somebody's like, I think it'd be fun to do a quiz. I'm like, are you ready to write 160, 40 miles?
00:43:29
Speaker
it ah change that why that is true know like yeah it should just before emails, I'm like, I know, I'm just telling you, I've walked down, I've had the same thought process. And the more you draw it out, it is a splinter. um And so it is so powerful, but it is a big undertaking. And so I also recommend it for people who are so clear on their program and have a proven process, because they are able to say, Hey, this is a good fit for you. Um, you know, in the early days, I used to joke that my target audience was anyone with a working credit card. That was a terrible time for me to win one question. I think they really is for people who are also trying to help people say, Hey, yes, I am a good fit or say and not for me right now. And that can also be helpful.
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah, 1000%. I'm so grateful I didn't build this quiz two years ago because in the last years, I've gotten so much clarity around who I help and also how I help them based on where they are in their journey.
Assessing and Evolving Marketing Strategies
00:44:31
Speaker
And so therefore, building out all of the email funnels for me kind of was fun and easy because I knew exactly where I was driving them. And I don't think I would have known that or you know I would have had something in place two years ago that I would have had to Continue to kind of like change and iterate on So yeah, the more clarity you have around exactly who you support and how you're gonna support them. I think Definitely matters. Yeah, what do you think? like
00:44:55
Speaker
What data do you think? So speaking of all of this, are there any data points that you think someone could say, okay, I'm hearing you and i'm not I'm still not really sure what's right for me. Are there any data points that you think someone should be keeping an eye on that might help them understand what um a smart marketing strategy would be for them at this stage? Yeah, such a great question. I think that there's a couple different ways to go. and Kind of the big buckets, right? Or you can look at SEO and there's a lot of people who can help you with that. And there's a lot of great DIY SEO options as well. Yeah.
00:45:29
Speaker
You can do outbound, so whether that is texting, email, ads, we would consider all of that outbound or inbound. The things I would look for for each of them, you can always have somebody who will run a free SEO audit for you. That is not hard to find. You can find SEO professionals who will help you say how fast you can grow. and what that would look like and kind of what that cost would be, how competitive is your space, right? You can normally get that done for free and that's a helpful first step to say, okay, where am I in the internet, right? You also want to look at your website traffic for inbound. If you are doing well, if people are landing on your site and you're not capturing their information, then that's a red flag for you to say, okay, we're missing something here. We can set up some kind of a sticky point for people where we get their email or we get to talk to them more.
00:46:17
Speaker
yeah And sometimes it's not even an email. I've recommended to coaches before, what if you just did an open, hey, grab lunch with us once a month, we're all going to get together. Or, you know, something that feels different and out there. And it's not just a hey, free download. I think that's everybody's go to. and But that ends up being a big, those are hard to make. They're so frequent on the internet, but they take so much time. Um, and then you've got to write all the emails that follow up with that. But I think first step is, do you have the traffic to support it? And if you do, are you capturing people?
00:46:55
Speaker
And then from there, I would also say, look at your client roster. And I think a lot of people say, who are your favorite clients? Who did you help the most? That's fine. Who did you have the best margins on? Who are the people that they came in? you made the most money off them. It went well. They were happy. You were happy. And say, where did they find me? How did this come to be? Was it a connection from somebody? Was it a referral? And how do I figure out why they referred to me and start to spiderweb some of this out? and Because I think that
00:47:27
Speaker
We spend so much time trying to pull the numbers off the internet, but there's also some data we can just get from our own life that we can pull as well. Yeah. So good. I was at a ah branding retreat recently, like a mastermind experience and something I'm going to be doing soon. So if you're on my email list, ah you'll see this come through soon. But something that I was like, Oh, that's so genius was just the concept of pulling your own audience. And a simple poll, I've done this in the past via an email where I asked them where they were in their journey and I gave them a podcast to listen to based on their response, which was really fun. But you could also poll your audience on all sorts of things that can give you insight to help you with your marketing, your copy, your offers, all of that jazz. So as you were talking, I was thinking about that and I was like, oh, you know, even beyond like with data collection, sometimes we immediately think we've got to go find the data that already exists. But also sometimes you can dig for that data a little bit more. For sure. Even going and asking some of these favorite clients, hey, what was the copy on my homepage that stood out to you? yeah What in our sales process made you decide to work with us? yeah What was something that gave you pause? Or what did you see from another agency?
00:48:40
Speaker
We've had people who were like, Oh, you can just see the other proposal we compared you against. We're like, great. Yeah. Please. Thank you. Yeah. It's vulnerable though. Right. Because it's hard to hear. Ooh, we met, we almost lost you or we really missed the mark here or that's actually not what we were trying to sell. And it's hard to get some of that, but it can be really helpful to hear from somebody, Hey, I did work with you and here's kind of what I saw. And not just the testimonial, but just some helpful, yeah Here's what I think you do. Here's what I tell people you do. Yeah, yeah I will say this. When I start first started coaching in 2020, when I first started being like putting it out there, I was coaching already behind the scenes, but saying, hey, I'm now a business coach and I'm available. If my first few clients that I lost, like where I was like
00:49:27
Speaker
It's perfect fit. I can help them. I know exactly what they need and they didn't choose me. I did the vulnerable thing and I wrote back and I was like, I'm so supportive of your decision. I want nothing but the best for you. If you wouldn't mind, would you be willing to share with me? What was the thing that made you go with someone else? And it is so scary. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. okay But the data I got back was so helpful for me, because I remember one, she said, oh, I just went with a coach who is, she was a dietician. She was like, I went with a coach who is a coach for dieticians. Fine. Fair. You know, no, that makes sense. We both probably could have helped you. So it, you know, whatever, whatever felt good to you. One of them said, I went with a coach who was less expensive and was going to provide me more sessions. Also fine. You know, good data for me doesn't mean I'm going to necessarily knock my price down and offer more sessions. Right. But
00:50:19
Speaker
It was all just data and the more curious I think you can get in your data collection, the better and stronger your business will be. Absolutely. I think so too. And if you are on Squarespace um or a platform like that, the built-in analytics that they have are actually great. And you can set alerts on your phone and the app to get certain, hey, you have more traffic today than ever before or Things that come up like that Shopify to you can get incredible data from Shopify um and sometimes it can be helpful to just go to a developer and say, where do you hold data from? What do you look for? Because they might show you oh click these two buttons and you'll get exactly what you're looking for.
00:50:59
Speaker
yeah But you don't have to go and pull all this crazy info to make some decisions. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes you just need like a little bit of information and then take the neck take the step forward. I was just doing a little sales page audit for a client of mine and that's where we I was like, Let's not change everything because then we won't know what was working and what wasn't working. But I was like, let's just work on what's above the fold because I think we can make some tweaks there. um And then we'll study that data again. And I'm doing the same thing. Spoiler alert, like we're studying the landing pages of our quiz funnel right now. We've got hotjar embedded, which if you're not familiar, hotjar is like a
00:51:32
Speaker
website a crawler that'll show you where people are clicking, where they're stalling, where they're leaving. And based on that information, we can see how many people are getting you know a certain certain distance down the page. And I can decide if I want to move some things up on the page or move some things around, but you know it's just data right now and you need that data in order to make those smart decisions.
Growing an Agency with Cold Emails
00:51:54
Speaker
Absolutely. No, that's a great tool. I love that one. um We use it for a lot of different stuff. It's so cool to be able to see where people are drawn to on pages and yeah looking at like the key maps. Yeah. um ah i can I could really go down a rabbit hole with it. I get really obsessed. I'm like, oh, they're hovering on this button. you know
00:52:12
Speaker
But it's pretty cool. I love it. Okay. I have a couple of questions I want to ask you before we wrap. These were listener questions from my Instagram audience, so thank you Instagram audience for participating. um First question is from Jessica of Upper Left Ladies, and she said, she's curious to learn what your best tips were for growing the agency.
00:52:33
Speaker
So I would say, so I had a point when I was making the jump from Susie Marketing to Lawson House where I was ready to take on more clients. We had the team a little bit more built out and we had kind of gotten into a cycle of issue clients, referring issue clients, and we were having a hard time breaking out of it. and Which I've heard this from a lot of different people it can be really hard to Break into a new market if you found yourself kind of in a rut And I think a lot of people tend to just lean into it and say I guess this is my target audience But we decided to pick a new one yeah We said we're gonna do something different. um I said I have to outsource this I'm not going to be able to and
00:53:20
Speaker
really market to the people I want to reach. And there's got to be people who are experts in this. And so I interviewed a couple cold email agencies and just said, Hey, and here's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for you to do your job exactly like what we said earlier. I will not check the copy. I will let you do your thing, put meetings on my calendar. yeah And if this goes well, we're going to be best friends. yeah and And so within 30 days, they had sent me 10 leads, we closed seven of them. And it was off to the races from that point. But I wrote a check that I should not have written. It was a like, oh, this is a little scary. Not shouldn't have written, and but yeah it was a, it was a big risk for me and it felt like, okay, we're putting our big girl pants on and we're either going to go out here and do it, or I've got to make some serious tweaks and we've got to kind of start from scratch if we're going to go organic.
00:54:13
Speaker
and so letting them do their thing, starting to really get aggressive about sales and trusting other people who are experts in this data was the best move we made. I love that. That's such a good tip. Okay. Next question is from Sarah and she said, the marketing landscape is always evolving. We talked about this. What tips do you have for entrepreneurs to ensure that their marketing strategies remain effective in this ever-changing market? Yeah, I would look at, so I would always look at things seasonally, right?
00:54:46
Speaker
And really pay attention to your emotions around, think about even, I know we're coming up on Memorial Day, but think about people, their kids just got out of school. They have a long weekend coming up. Really what I'm trying to say is it's not you, right? They are not putting you off because they professionally don't think you have what it takes or they have doubts, right? Normally it's because they have a dog to take care of and they have kids and they've got other things on their mind, right? And so it's really easy to say it's all marketing. Everything hinges on marketing, but there's also just some other things that come into play. When it comes to making sure your strategies work, taking that part out, taking the emotion out is so important. And then saying, hey, but really where am I finding clients? Where did we land these deals and how can I maximize on what's working? um And paying attention to that,
00:55:40
Speaker
letting it build on itself, you're going to find yourself with a strategy that's totally different at the end of the year if you keep doing what's working, cutting out what's not.
Outsourcing and External Partnerships
00:55:49
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And I know sometimes this can feel like Well, it can either feel labor intensive or what I see a lot is there's like ah almost like a block around doing some of the things that maybe Susie and I have mentioned already on this episode because we are talking about a lot of big girl pants moments as like being the leader. And so I will just say like like you said, outsource it if you can. If it feels like I don't have it in me to do this, this feels way too scary and I'm having like a physical almost response to not do this.
00:56:19
Speaker
This is often what I do with my clients is literally just help them track the lead so that we can make these smart decisions together. And this is why I hired my first business coach. I had my head in the sand and I was like, I know I need to do this thing. And it was revolving around spreadsheets. But I was like, I just physically can't seem to make myself do it. I need some, I'm going to pay someone to make me do it. yeah it's a lot like a physical trainer like i know i need to go to the gym with these weights but i'm gonna pay someone to do it so that i hold myself responsible to do it i think a lot of what we're sharing today revolves around that weather you need to outsource branding weather you need to outsource you know cold dms weather you need to outsource someone like studying your strategies and what's working whatever
00:57:01
Speaker
but sometimes it can feel scary. People bring so much clarity. Like what I was just saying of, Hey, it might not be you. It might not be your marketing strategy. It could be the time of year. Those guys came back to me as amazing partners when I'm like, Oh, like yeah is my business failing? Is this it? Did we book our last client? Is this the end? And they're like, no, it's 4th of July. Like everyone's on vacation. You need to calm down. Give this a week. It's going to be your best month ever. Yeah. Having somebody else say, hey, we see it objectively yeah and we're not having all the feelings that come with being the business owner is so
Listener Questions and Closing Remarks
00:57:39
Speaker
helpful. I think that hiring a coach, outsourcing what you can, that clarity itself is so valuable. 100%. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I love it. Okay. Well, those were our little listener listener questions. So thank you for
00:57:55
Speaker
answering. I think we shared so much valuable insight and a lot of range today between business ownership, growing an agency, branding, marketing, all of the things. So Susie, will you tell everybody where they can find you on the internet? Absolutely. So if you go to Instagram, we have two different accounts for on launch 38 and Lawson house agency. and And we post a lot of different stuff there, but it's a great place to start and just kind of see some of our work. We've got all of our links on there, so I'm sure you'll be able to find everything you need just from there. Or you can shoot us a sit DM when we've got people checking out all the time.
00:58:27
Speaker
I love it. And you heard us mention Launch 38 at the top end of this episode. I'm going to have a link in the show notes below. If you're interested in having your entire brand and website built in a week, i click on the link in the show notes and you can use my code TNAPR250 and you can save $250 off of your experience, which is remarkable. I've had a couple of clients go through it already. I went through it with Make That Money, Honey. So you can go check out my website, Make That Money, Honey, and see what it looks like. Thank you so much for being here with us, Susie. It was so fun anytime. Love the show and I just love your audience. So excited for what you are offering them. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this conversation, please leave us a review and subscribe for more insights from industry leaders from people like Susie. Until next time, keep striving, keep growing and know that wherever you are right now, this or more is what's in store.