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Make Your Copy Intoxicating with Cassie of Mettle & Tonic
95 Plays8 months ago
Feel like your copy is a snooze-fest? Grab your pen & paper because today I’m joined by copywriting and messaging wiz Cassie Paton. As the founder of copywriting studio Mettle and Tonic, Cassie spends her days remedying boring copy so that it does what it's supposed to do — increases conversions and sales!
We chat about:
- What cocktails and copy have to do with one another
- How to make your newsletter stand out from the crowd
- Biggest mistakes you could be making in your copy & how to fix it
- What to do when you have writer's block
- Tips for button CTAs that make people click
- Cassie’s stance on AI for copywriting. Should you use it? Tune in to find out!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'This or More' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to This or More, a wild entrepreneurial podcast adventure for bold and brave creatives like you. I'm Tiffany Napper, your host, holistic business coach, corporate music industry dropout, a seasoned five-time multi-six figure entrepreneur, yoga instructor, and your go-to gal for heart-to-heart coffee chats.
00:00:21
Speaker
On this show, we're not just here to share stories. We're here to ignite a fire within you and make you realize that the reality you envision is just the tip of the iceberg. You're wildly capable of achieving that reality and so much more. So my friends, grab your cup of inspiration, settle in, and let's dive into another inspiring episode of This or More.
00:00:44
Speaker
Hello, welcome back.
Meet Cassie: Copywriting Expert
00:00:45
Speaker
Grab your pen and paper because today I'm joined by copywriting and messaging whiz and founder of copywriting studio metal and tonic. And she's going to spill the tea of what it takes to have good brand messaging and scroll stopping copy to really make you stand out from the sea of same old to use some of her own brilliant words. Welcome to the show, Cassie. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.
00:01:08
Speaker
I'm so glad you're here. So before we dive into all things copy and messaging, and I'm, you know, I'm a journalism major, so words are my friends. And, and I love your, you know, unique kind of what you bring to the table, because copywriting, as we know, is different from writing, right? There's different forms of writing. And I'm excited to dive in with you for all of our listeners today. But I want to know a little bit more about you first and foremost. So will you tell us what inspired you to become a copywriter? What's the story?
00:01:38
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. Well, it
Cassie's Journey to Copywriting
00:01:40
Speaker
was a journey getting here. But, you know, as you mentioned, there are different kinds of writing, right? And I started out definitely more on the creative writing side of things from a very young age. I was also a journalism major, actually. So I love that we have that in common. Yeah, I did. I was a journalist for a while. I did other forms of marketing, you know, like content marketing. But I got into copywriting.
00:02:07
Speaker
I think I dabbled a while in freelance when I was kind of just taking any gig I could get. And for a long time when I was freelancing or had full-time gigs that weren't really the right fit, I kind of felt like
00:02:23
Speaker
I sort of bought into the starving artist mentality a little bit of just creative writing and writing in general. So it took me a little while to get here. I actually worked in the real estate industry for several years and not in sales, but behind the scenes actually building the business on the operations and marketing side. And that I'm so grateful for that left turn.
00:02:50
Speaker
because at the time it felt like, oh no, I'm leaving behind this, what felt like such a part of my identity. But it was the perfect training ground for entrepreneurship. And in that time, I continued to freelance, I continued to learn about marketing and realized, okay, I'm seeing these, this path now starting to make sense. And I know that actually copywriting is a very lucrative and fulfilling path.
Naming and Branding: 'Metal and Tonic'
00:03:17
Speaker
And so I started,
00:03:19
Speaker
Metal and Tonic about three years ago exactly, and here we are. I'm loving it. I work with solopreneurs, typically, you know, small, small businesses, and it's my favorite gig yet. Love it. Yeah, I was going to say congrats on the recent birthday milestone, three years. So, okay, Metal and Tonic, I have to know. What inspired the name of the company? How did you go from, you know, cocktails to copy?
00:03:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, I, I loved, I, first of all, I love any play on words, of course. And mixology just lends itself to so much fantastic language. And, you know, you can, you can make a good analogy between mixology and what I do as a messaging strategist. It's very much like a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And, you know, that play on word, both, both metal, meaning like,
00:04:18
Speaker
your spirit, you're the fortitude and strength and character that you show up with in the world, which is what all of my clients have in common. They're brave, they're gutsy. So both metal and tonic also speak to different types of spirits. So it was a long, long game of wordplay, but I get asked that a lot, so I love talking about it.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah. And you do such a brilliant job of weaving in the analogies very effortlessly. I saw that you recently branded your newsletter in fact, and it's now called the speak easy, which is so cute. So tell me about that. What prompted you to think, Oh, I've got an opportunity here to really make my email marketing stand out from the crowd and give it its own unique identity.
Joy in Business and Newsletters
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think that was born of this deep need to bring fun back into my business because, because, you know, I think that those early days in your business, you're just like riding this high, you're trying anything and everything. It's, it's, you know, it's intense and scary, but it's also really fun because you don't know what you don't know yet.
00:05:39
Speaker
And by year two, it had been just nonstop, just nonstop working, grinding, working, grinding, and everything was really starting to feel like a chore. And I'm like, okay, this is the antithesis of what I'm about, what I want to help people do.
00:05:56
Speaker
how can I make this more sustainable and more joyful? I wanted to speak to not only this need obviously that I serve and help my clients with in terms of messaging and copy, but also entrepreneurship in general. How can we make this more joyful?
00:06:21
Speaker
something that really just felt very aligned with my values. And I wanted to make feel like a conversation, a community, and a place where you can go and hang out. So I kind of call it my hideaway for kindred spirits and anything goes, but there are a lot of messaging insights in there too.
00:06:44
Speaker
So good. I know. And I, you know, I, you're speaking my language. I'm all about, you know, if you're listening and you've been around for awhile, you know, I use the word joy probably more than any other word in the English vocabulary because I'm the same way. I'm like, we've got to make this journey more fun. We've got to find the joy in it or else what
Copywriting Mistakes to Avoid
00:07:01
Speaker
are we doing? You know, life is just about so much more than hitting that benchmark or that goalpost or that quarter revenue goal. It's just so much about so much more than that. So I love that. I recently,
00:07:13
Speaker
It's a little refresh on my email newsletter as well, and it's called LeScoop. It's really fun. Same thing. I woke up one day and I was like, I've been writing this email every Tuesday for so long. Sure, I've changed it up over the years, but I wanted to get back into ... When I first started writing my email, I didn't even have a business. I just had a blog.
00:07:34
Speaker
And, um, and I just wanted to get back to where I could feel like it was my opportunity to go back to our journalism degrees. It's an opportunity to kind of flex those creative wings a little bit. Right. And just.
00:07:44
Speaker
speak from the heart and it's not trying to fit into an Instagram caption or a sales page. Um, so I love, I love that you did that. It's really brilliant. So if everybody, anybody's listening, go sign up for the speak easy and get all of her nuggets there. Um, so we're going to dive straight into the good stuff as far as copywriting goes. And I want to start with like what I know probably everyone else is already wondering. And it's just this, what is the single biggest mistake you see when it comes to copywriting? Ooh.
00:08:15
Speaker
Just one, you know, I think, I think the biggest is a lack of specificity. Our audiences, I mean, all of our audiences are of course different, but I think people in general are becoming increasingly aware. They are, they are aware, they're very aware of that they're being sold to all the time, left and right.
00:08:38
Speaker
And what I'm hearing even from peers, other business owners who have successfully sold offers in the past with their existing copy, suddenly something's off and it's not working as well as it used to.
00:08:59
Speaker
And something I do a lot of, I really enjoy is doing copy hop seats, which is just reviews of other people's copy. I do it for speakeasy subscribers. I do it in my programs. And, you know, I hear that often from people. They're like, I don't know, this has worked in the past, but something doesn't feel right. I don't even know how to look at this thing anymore. And usually, I'm like, okay, this program, I can tell this, or offer, whatever it is, this is a great offer.
00:09:29
Speaker
but I need more details. I need more specifics. I need you to paint me a picture. And, um, so that's like, if I could shout anything from the rooftops, it's, can you explain more about that? Can you show me more about that instead of promising, you know, kind of like these big picture, lovely sounding things that aren't incredibly specific? Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:56
Speaker
That makes sense. I'll say I also was wondering what your feedback or thoughts are on. And I know this is like, I remember when someone first pointed this out to me, I don't know, remember when it was, but like to not use the word I as much, like to take myself out of the copy so much. Do you still see that? Or do you feel like people have kind of caught on to that? It needs to be about the person reading and not about the person writing.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think whenever you can use your audience's name in emails or just the word you, people pay attention.
Brand Values in Messaging
00:10:30
Speaker
It's so easy to switch up most I or me sentences to you or your sentences. So that's kind of like, yeah, absolutely, wherever you can. But it's funny you asked that question because I was writing website copy for a client.
00:10:48
Speaker
like this week and found myself in one section kind of Repeatedly saying the word we do this we do that we'll do this for you and I was like, oh I should probably switch this and I was like Okay, but the point is so that you can write what you know, whatever so there are obviously exceptions But I think that's like one of the easiest like bits of advice that if you're like, uh, what are some tweaks I can make that's a really good one
00:11:17
Speaker
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I love that one. So you said this recently and I loved it. You said strong messaging isn't just something you write. It's something you feel. And that's so good. Can you elaborate? Like what, what do you feel? No pun intended. What can someone do to make their copy be more emotive and to, you know, create more emotions as they read it or as they write it?
00:11:43
Speaker
Gosh, I think to start, you really have to be willing and try to let yourself get messy and be unfiltered.
00:11:54
Speaker
Um, and I think it really helps to do that somewhere that's away from your phone, away from your computer. If, especially if it's more than just like a copy tweak here or there, if you're having this sort of like mini crisis over who am I, you know, what do I have to say? Why does this matter? Really like go offline, please, please go offline and look, look for inspiration.
00:12:24
Speaker
in other sources. Something we were talking about before we started recording is just that feeling of grinding, grinding, grinding, just nonstop working. And it's hard to pull ourselves out of that and see the big picture of what we're doing. But it's essential just for, I think, business in general to be able to get that perspective.
Storytelling in Copywriting
00:12:51
Speaker
For me,
00:12:53
Speaker
with the speakeasy, right? That's my creative outlet now. And I'm getting ideas for the speakeasy, not when I'm sitting at my computer, but when I am having conversations with friends, reading a book, taking my dog for a walk. And it sounds, you know, it sounds simple. I think a lot of us know this, but we don't always do it.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's, you know, and that, that applies to me too. So yeah, that's such a good advice. And I think also, um, you know, that's why I like, if I know I've got to get into like creative mode from a business owner perspective, and usually that means some writing or some plant, you know, planning, the first thing I'll do is like find a vibey coffee shop that I can just go hunker down at for a couple of hours and
00:13:46
Speaker
You know, kind of be outside of my normal routine where I'm going to more likely get distracted or kind of fall into a rhythm of some sort because there's so much value around putting yourself in different scenarios to really opening your, it's like the same reason why we travel, right? Like.
00:14:03
Speaker
There's a value, and you don't always have to go very far. That's the beauty of it all. You don't always have to go that far. You don't even have to get on a plane. Sometimes you can just walk to the local coffee shop, but there is a lot of value. That's such a good little point, a good little nugget. If you know you need to spend the next couple of hours writing content, copy of some sort for your business, take yourself on a little writing date. Yeah. Yeah. I love writing dates. Yeah.
00:14:27
Speaker
I think another thing too, something that I know you talk about and I am constantly trying to remind folks of as well is if you have defined your brand's values, that like your values aren't just like this thing that you promise to do or be for your clients. It is what you practice every day.
00:14:57
Speaker
They're supposed to be and can be this North Star for everything you do in your business, including how you talk about your business. That's what messaging is. It's just how you talk about it. For me, when I am feeling lost, whether it's in terms of my marketing or a major business decision, I look at those.
00:15:22
Speaker
Does this thing I want to say or do meet the criteria of my brand values? It really, really helps when you have put the time in to do some soul searching and make sure that your values are clearly defined. They're not simply aspirational.
00:15:43
Speaker
You don't have 10 brand values, right? They're your core, core values. And that just makes it so much easier, I think, to also be more specific in your copywriting. So it all connects in that way. I love that. I love that. And I've never really, I don't know that I've really ever thought about how directly related
00:16:07
Speaker
It is to your copy, but we know one of my brand values is relatability. Like I want to always be someone that you look at and I'm relatable in some degree to you. Like you can see yourself.
00:16:19
Speaker
in my journey or we would be friends, we would hang out together. Like that's usually my, you know, what I'm looking for when I'm working, you know, interviewing a client is like, would we hang out together? Um, and that, so that real relatability factor comes in strong. And so therefore sometimes I get kind of casual in my language because for me, that is part of my relatability, right? But I've never really thought about it in such a clear way. So thank you for that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we know how many times have we heard,
00:16:48
Speaker
that storytelling is so, so, so important, right? But I think sometimes it's said so frequently that it can feel like this, it's like tell more stories, kind of feels like vague direction if I'm being honest, because as you know, there's a good way to tell a story, there's a terrible way to, who here has ever, you know, gotten into a situation where you're listening to someone tell a story and you're like, oh my God, how do I get out of this conversation? So there's good ways and bad ways to tell stories.
00:17:16
Speaker
What would your advice be as a copywriting expert if you were like, we really need to tell more stories? Like if you had to describe that to a five-year-old, we're given some real specific tangible direction on how to tell a great story. What would you say? Yeah, that's a question I hear often too. I think it comes with practice and again,
00:17:39
Speaker
often getting away from the computer really helps. But I will say that I think a lot of people aren't sure like, I don't know what story to tell, like, either I have interesting kind of anecdotes that I'm not sure how to tie to, like, some kind of business or life lesson, or they feel like
00:18:00
Speaker
I don't have interesting stories. My day-to-day life is not that interesting. There are solutions for both of those
Editing and CTAs in Copywriting
00:18:08
Speaker
things. I think first of all, it helps too if that's something you know and want to do more of.
00:18:17
Speaker
is first of all, I think coming up with like a bank of ideas as they come to you, like, so for example, anytime that an emotion, you felt an emotion strongly in your life, whether that was an embarrassing moment, a challenging experience, a triumphant story, even everyday, you know, Seinfeld moments, like frustrating things,
00:18:45
Speaker
fear, anger, jealousy. Any time you strongly feel an emotion, that's a sign that it's going to be an interesting story and something that everyone can relate to. When are you likely to have experienced these things? Often, when you're traveling, things crop up. When you're trying
00:19:08
Speaker
something new, you feel emotion strongly, you know, transitional moments in your life, intense physical experiences, anything like that, where, you know, if you can come up with those specific examples, and then think about, oh, well, yeah, actually, that time I did karaoke, you know, like, that was kind of wild. What was I feeling in that moment? And how does that relate to
00:19:36
Speaker
a feeling that I know my audience has either in their day-to-day or when they're going through something new or challenging. So that's, of course, the trick, right, is tying it back to your audience. And it doesn't always seem directly obvious, but remember when you're connecting through shared emotions, I think it's easier to make that leap and transition into the point of the story you're telling.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Do you think, I mean, is there like a level of amount of details that you're like, be really detailed, give them everything or get to the point or, you know, you know, I'm always changing up my cadence in storytelling. Um, you know, in emails, for example, that's, that's where you're often likely to do it, maybe a little bit more in depth. And, um,
00:20:28
Speaker
Sometimes I will, I will tell a story. It will, it'll take a while to get to the point. Hey, not everyone's going to read that, but some people totally hooked, right? And I think when you're telling a story like that, the more vividly you can describe, you know, not only the feelings you had, but like a detail that really stood out from that night. So they can envision being in your shoes.
00:20:53
Speaker
Um, other times it's like, I don't need to know what are the absolute bare bones need to know details for me to understand and you know, kind of be on the same page as you. So in that case, it might be a really, really short, succinct kind of punchy story. Right. I think what trips people up is they feel like
00:21:14
Speaker
Oh, well, in order for you to really understand the full context, I'm going to give you all these background details and it kind of just, it takes away from the story. Yeah. I will share this as a sidebar if you're listening. I had a public speaking coach tell me one time, never, ever, ever say the phrase, let me tell you a story.
00:21:36
Speaker
It's a bit for stage work, but I think it's probably pretty relevant when you're writing copy as well. The reason being that there's theories that as soon as you say it, people kind of tune out because they're like, oh God, they're going to tell me a story. And so just go into the story. Don't tell them. Don't preface it. Just start the story. I love that you bring that up. Copywriters, we call that throat clearing copy. So throat clearing copy is exactly that example or any time
00:22:06
Speaker
you're trying to just feeling like you're trying to warm people up to get to the point. It's like, no, no, no. And it's fine. You can write it that way. First drafts are meant to be just full of that kind of stuff. It's when you put on your editor hat and just ruthlessly cut out. Who cares? Who cares? Don't need it. Don't need it. But yeah.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah. I love that. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the editing process then. If someone is listening in there like, okay, I wrote this thing, but it does, you know, now that I'm hearing what, what, what you're saying, maybe I was, maybe I was a little too verbose, maybe it was a little too lengthy. How much editing do you typically do when you're writing? And maybe that varies if it's your writing sales page copy versus an email marketing campaign. But, but how much editing do you suggest people really do? Well, you know, for me,
00:22:54
Speaker
I think everyone writes a little bit differently. I do encourage getting the crappy first draft out. But I say that as somebody who has struggled to get over the habit of editing myself as I write. So I do what you're not supposed to do sometimes. I've gotten a lot better at that. But I will say the magic is in the editing.
00:23:22
Speaker
And it helps if you can kind of edit, like read through what you've written multiple times through multiple lenses or from multiple angles. So the most important thing is clarity. If what you're saying is unclear, your audience is confused, you've already lost them. So the first time you're reading it, read from that perspective of, is this clear?
00:23:52
Speaker
Um, and that applies to every little bit of copy, whether it's a headline, um, you know, or. I mean, I think a lot in terms of sales pages and website copy, cause like, that's where it matters so much more. Um, your headlines, your crossheads, your bullet points, your program promise. Um, is it clear?
00:24:14
Speaker
And that's where you really need to be ruthless because I think often, you know, sometimes we do find a fun sort of play on words that's clever and clever copy can definitely add personality, but you always, you never want to sacrifice clarity for cleverness. So that's, that would be the first lens through which, you know, we should really edit your copy. After that is,
00:24:42
Speaker
Is it emotionally compelling? Do I, would I care if I were reading this? Yeah. Yeah. Would I, does this pull at something that I, that I really, really want and interested in? And that's where specificity again, really comes in because again, when we promise things like, you know, everything gets easier.
00:25:10
Speaker
Tell me more. Like I need a lot more detail than that. Right. Um, and you know, the last thing too, is, is it, uh, is it attention grabbing, uh, from, from like word zero, is it attention grabbing? Cause as we know, we're competing with a lot of things for our audience's attention. So right away it, the first thing I read needs to be.
00:25:37
Speaker
the most interesting thing I read. And each section works to keep me engaged and moving naturally into the next section.
Email Marketing Strategies
00:25:47
Speaker
I think that if that sounds intimidating and you're like, well, I don't know how to do that, it really helps if you read lots of copy, you know, read lots of copy, read lots of sales pages and emails, take note of
00:26:05
Speaker
what doesn't resonate with you or what really, really resonates with you. And if you can figure out why and treat it almost like a game, you'll start to pick up naturally, even if you're, you know, you're not sure exactly why. It does, you know, it is a skill that anyone can develop. And I think that's really crucial. That's something that I want my audience to,
00:26:34
Speaker
to learn from me is that, yeah, nothing beats hiring a copywriter when you're ready for that stage, but you can and should learn how to do some of this yourself because you're never going to stop marketing your business. Even if you've outsourced, you are still the founder, you know, your values are driving this ship and it's a worthwhile skill to build.
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah. And it, it, it crosses over. Like when you, when you, when you do kind of lock in, if you will, and find a rhythm with your copywriting, it parlays into how you speak. And, you know, like you said, like if you're the business owner, you're probably on social media, you're probably on Instagram stories, you're probably having to talk about your offering and, you know, networking events. And so it all kind of starts to parlay into it. And,
00:27:26
Speaker
Um, and helps you just refine, refine, refine. And like you said, be even more clear about who you are and what you can do for people. So. Absolutely. Okay. Specifically that we were, that, that felt very much, you know, I know we were talking a little bit about sales pages, so I have one more question for you about that. And then I want to talk about email marketing, but.
00:27:48
Speaker
call to action CTAs what we call them in the industry, right call to action buttons. Do you have? Do you have a pet peeve? Or do you have any tips and tricks for people who are like, what am I supposed to put on this button? Yes, that is always always a challenge. And I will say, my least favorite call to action is learn more.
00:28:14
Speaker
Um, that is a good call to action news when you don't actually really want people to click that button. Like, like if it's a homepage, sometimes homepages, like they have multiple calls to action, right? But there's like a primary call to action. Every page should have one primary. And so for a secondary call to action, maybe learn more is fine. Um, but
00:28:37
Speaker
But for, you know, another way of thinking about calls to action is, is it a call to value? That's when you can really, really come up with like, like juicy, yet succinct and clear language that's going to inspire the click. There is like, there's some crazy data, especially for copywriters who are like in the SaaS and tech world, like when they have,
00:29:02
Speaker
huge segments of audience to like learn about their on-page behaviors. It's pretty cool. And you can see with things like heat maps where, when people are hovering over a button and you can learn so much from tools like that, like are people clicking on it or not? Often solopreneurs, small business owners aren't using that kind of technology. So, but that just goes to show how important they are. So one thing you can do,
00:29:32
Speaker
is mirror or echo the call to action copy with the headline or cross head just above it. Now it helps if the headline itself is interesting and compelling and specific, right? But if I could give you a specific example, I'm trying to think of one I recently wrote. But if your headline is
00:30:02
Speaker
you know, enter the speak easy, you know, like, you would, the button would say enter now or knock knock something like that just kind of like connects or ties to the headline above it, because it's
00:30:17
Speaker
It makes sense, right? From a reader's perspective of like, Oh yeah, like that's the thing I want. Ooh. And if I click this button, I'm going to get it. So our brain's like, there's a lot of psychology there. Um, so that would be my biggest thing. But another, another way of thinking about it is of course, finish the sentence of I want to take out. I want to, what do you want? I want to.
00:30:43
Speaker
you know, 10X my membership sales, that kind of thing. Yep. So good. Hope you're taking notes. If you're listening, if you're driving, come back to it. Bookmark this moment because those were some good little, um, I love called a value. First of all, that's brilliant. And, um, and yeah, what do they want to, and then use those, those next couple of words as your call to action button. That's so good. When we think about, you know, so copywriting, as we've kind of already alluded to,
00:31:13
Speaker
spans across different components of the business, especially small business owners. You've got email marketing. You've got sales pages. You've got website pages. You've got social media. We've got all these different touch points where the copy really is as much a star of the show as the branding, as the visuals, as the offer sometimes.
00:31:34
Speaker
So when we think about email marketing, I know you're a fan, obviously we talked about the speak easy. What do you think is, well, first of all, like, why do you think email marketing is so important? Let's start there and then we'll dive in a little deeper. But why do you think email marketing is so important for business owners?
00:31:50
Speaker
So many reasons, but you know, connection is such a key part of it. Especially again, if you are the face of your business, it's just an opportunity to connect on a much, much deeper level and reliably with your audience as well. Obviously, you know, I don't know what's going on with Instagram lately. Everybody seems to agree that reaches down
00:32:17
Speaker
You know engagement is down and that that just changes depending on the day Um email, you know that these people have like raised their hand and said yes, please email me Which is kind of a big deal because I don't know about you I like i'm like if you're in my inbox and i'm reading your emails like that says something about how I feel about you and so You know
00:32:43
Speaker
the people whose emails I'm reading, I feel very personally connected to. I'm paying closer attention to them. I'm looking forward to hearing from them and a lot more in depth, a lot more off the cuff or real than I think we get on platforms like Instagram where it just naturally is shinier.
00:33:09
Speaker
It I mean, I would compare it to maybe instagram stories where there's you know There's a little bit more behind the scenes and that kind of thing. But um, there's just there's so many ways to to connect and of course Have that warmed up ready to go audience when you're launching or when you're You know testing new offers or conducting market research like there's no better audience than your email list for that
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to ask you if you, you know, when it comes to copywriting and email marketing as a tool to express that copywriting, you know, how much of it do you think is important to be?
00:33:50
Speaker
sales driven, and then how much of it do we want to be more just nurturing? Like I do like you do. I say things in my emails every Tuesday that I don't say anywhere else. And sometimes I'm like, this may be a use, like I should, maybe I should multipurpose this. But then I'm like, no, part of being on my email list is that you're going to get to hear these things from me that I might not want to put on Instagram or Facebook. Right. So how much of that, you know, do you recommend or do you have a split that you would recommend or, you know, what's your thought thoughts around that?
00:34:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think it depends on the season in your business. There are going to be slower seasons where you're not in active launch and sales mode, and that's okay. You can do your weekly, biweekly, monthly, whatever it is, nurturing. And I want to emphasize how important that is. I think people really, really struggle with email marketing sometimes because it feels like you're bothering people.
00:34:49
Speaker
But you're not bothering people, and it's only going to exacerbate that feeling that you're bothering people if you never nurture and only sell. And we've all been guilty of that, I think, at different points. I have two. And so that's okay. But I think
00:35:13
Speaker
there are going to be those periods where, again, it's nurturing. It's maybe talking about what you do in sort of a bigger picture, not trying to sell you on anything kind of way. It's really just staying top of mind. Whereas other seasons, you know, when you know that you're going to be launching soon or you're between launches, I think even in just regular nurture emails, there are always natural ways of kind of dropping in, by the way,
00:35:43
Speaker
like here's some ways we can work together, right? One strategy that I really like and have increasingly seen more business owners do is having this like super powered kind of email signature where it's kind of a menu of ways, you know, you can work with me. And that's just like an easy way to like not feel salesy while still making sure that every email has something people can
00:36:13
Speaker
click on and find out more about. Um, but otherwise I think, I think a good rule of thumb is, you know, max 50 50, um, other periods, maybe you're only selling like 30, 40% of the time. Um, because you don't want people to start to ignore your emails if they know your
00:36:39
Speaker
only emailing them when you're selling something, it will backfire. And it's not because people don't like you. It's just that they're like, nah, I don't need anything from her right now. And that's what we don't want. We want them to know there's always something good in these emails. Yeah, I know I'm being sold to also, but I want to see what she has to say.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. That's some good advice. And if you were listening and you were like, what does she mean by that signature? Super, super signature. I forget what the words were you called. Um, if you are on my list and you want to look back at some of my emails, I do this frequently. I don't, you do it in every single email, but I do it frequently where underneath where I have a little XO Tiffany with a picture of me, which by the way, I love, I always tell my clients.
00:37:26
Speaker
If you can put your photo and your signature on your emails, I suggest it because one of my pet peeves is I'm on an email list and I'm getting emails and I'm like, who, how, who is this person? How did I get here? But if I get their photo, sometimes I might recognize them from Instagram or recognize them from, from how I got on that. So I always suggest to have a little photo in that signature, but underneath that you can have a little thing that's like how to work with me, maybe even as a little headline. And it's just a bullet point of the two or three or five or whatever ways that they can work with you.
00:37:57
Speaker
And it's really nice, like you said, to just kind of start to subliminally include. And so it's not a hard sales pitch, but if they're like, well, how do I work with her? I liked what she just said. You're making it easy for them to find. They don't have to go on a treasure hunt. Please don't make them go on a treasure hunt.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So if, so we were talking, you were saying, you know, even if it's once a week or once every other week or once a month, I'm a big fan of once a week. That's been a cadence that's been really easy for me to uphold for the last five years. But if someone is like not doing that or struggling to do that, what are some tips you might give to just speed up the writing process for the, let's just call it weekly emails? Sure. I think, um, first of all, letting yourself
00:38:44
Speaker
go off script a little bit, like if something comes to mind, that's, you know, it depends if you're, if you're B2B, you know, if something comes up that's business related, obviously, you can maybe relate to some of the things your audience is going through. If you are, you know, B2C, just everyday people who don't own businesses, maybe it's something from your life. So I think mixing
00:39:08
Speaker
in a little bit of life or behind the scenes of your business can be really helpful. Keep note of conversations that you're having with clients and prospects. I mean, the questions that you get on a discovery call, for example, or in your DMs, that is good fodder. It doesn't matter if you've answered the question in the past. If people keep asking it, it means people will always have this question.
00:39:36
Speaker
So those are really, really great. And of course, client stories. So we talked about storytelling. Client stories are easy, easy stories to tell. Obviously links or resources, things you've read or consumed that you know would be helpful or interesting to your audience. I'm a big fan of using that and giving shout outs to other folks.
00:40:05
Speaker
Um, that's something I'm trying to do more of in the speak easy is, um, you know, I'm doing some interviews or I'm even just asking for quotes. I'm, I'm trying to like sprinkle in a bit more of the journalism background by just reaching out to people and being like, Hey, what do you think about this? Can I quote you in my newsletter? That's like, you know, who doesn't want to, to be featured in your newsletter. And then that's just an easy way to add value for.
00:40:34
Speaker
your audience. And anything that you wrote, published, sent more than three months ago, please go revisit that and repurpose that. And you can often republish as is. Often there's a new angle or something to expand on. Maybe your opinion has changed slightly.
00:41:02
Speaker
But people are not paying as close of attention as you think they are. So repurposing is your friend. Repurposing is your friend. Amen. I probably need to do a better job of that. I mean, I'm lucky in the sense because as you and I both have journalism degrees, I don't really get writer's block very often. And I love this tip that you've said a few times. But take note of things going on in your life. I just have a notes.
00:41:30
Speaker
a notes, you know, on my notes app, I have a note where if I'm listening to a podcast and it triggers idea, I watch Netflix, it can trigger an idea. I read a book, it can trigger idea like all of these, you know, other things. And then just my everyday life, like my newsletter next week is going to be about me finally.
00:41:49
Speaker
Finally, three years later, sinking my phone to my car. And there's a story there, okay? There's a way that really affects us not doing the thing that we know we need to do that actually makes our lives easier, right? But something as simple as that, and I'm just like, oh, I can share this in a newsletter. It's kind of funny and silly, but it's so, it's relate, goes back to being relatable, right? But so just open up the notes up of your phone and start taking note of things. And I promise there's a story in almost all those little mundane things.
00:42:18
Speaker
There's definitely stories and all of that. And then even when you said repurposing, I thought about another strategy that I've done in the past where like, if I'm like, okay, my brain is dead. I got nothing to give today. I'll just, I tried this one time and it worked. I couldn't believe how much it worked, but is literally the whole email was like, I can't believe you haven't seen this yet. And it was a hyperlink to like a recent Instagram reel or something that I had posted on Instagram.
00:42:41
Speaker
That was it. That was all. It got so many clicks. It got so many opens. And I was like, I already said what I wanted to say in that reel. Why would I say it again? Let me just send them to watch the reel. But feel free to take that if you want it. But it was literally- I love that. I can't believe you haven't seen this yet. That was it. So smart. Yes. Yeah. I think sometimes we make it, we think it has to be a novel. It doesn't always need to be a novel, right?
00:43:07
Speaker
No, no. We love to overcomplicate things. We often feel the need to almost prove, even if not very consciously, right? Look how much I know and look how complex and in-depth this topic is. And that's overwhelming.
AI Tools in Copywriting
00:43:29
Speaker
Give me one thing to think about or do.
00:43:35
Speaker
you know, what I think that's the thing is whatever works for you don't Yeah, these things take practice, but you also don't have to force yourself into being a certain type of writer or creator. You know, if that doesn't suit your personality, your energy, whatever it is. I have
00:43:56
Speaker
one client who's a member of the draft house, which is my group membership. She's a good writer, but she talks about how painful it can be to just write a simple email, how much time it takes. And anytime I ask her a question and ask her to explain, so tell me what you're trying to say. She will say it so clearly
00:44:24
Speaker
in such a logical order. And I'm like, okay, I want you to go back and listen to this recording and write down exactly what you just said. That's your email. Yeah, that's like a great way to write an email if that's what works for you. I'd be terrible at that. I can be very long winded. I, you know, I unfortunately don't have that skill, but you have to figure out what works for you.
00:44:49
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Okay, we have to talk about it. We have to talk about technology and where it's gone and where it's going. So let's talk a little bit about AI. Yeah. So it's here, obviously, and we're starting to see people using it quite a lot for different things. And I think one of the biggest uses I'm seeing is copywriting, right? Like getting words on paper or on a screen.
00:45:14
Speaker
What's your stance on it, first of all? And then I kind of want to talk about what are some of the telltale warnings that someone has gone with the AI. Yes. So my feelings on AI, I think they change day to day, just depending on the day and my mood. I think
00:45:36
Speaker
Overall, in general, it can be an amazing tool. There's so much potential. It's obviously impressive what AI can do. Tools like Chat, GPT, and Claude, and Jasper is another one, which I haven't tried, but those are kind of like the big ones for writing and copywriting.
00:45:58
Speaker
You know, I think AI in general makes a lot of things more accessible to more people, and I think that's really cool and important. And there are people talking about that with more expertise than I have, but I think that's an important thing to keep in mind before immediately, like, jumping on the bandwagon of bashing it.
00:46:20
Speaker
And yet in another way, in some ways it can feel like sort of the final nail in the coffin in terms of like how our society values craft and artistry for any creative endeavor, not just writing, but ultimately it's a tool. It's not inherently good or bad. You know, I do use chat GPT and Claude. I've played with it a lot.
00:46:50
Speaker
What I like it for is for brainstorming, helping me look at something from a different angle, think differently. It's really good at summarizing. I prefer quad these days over chat GPT. It's amazing. I was recording some coffee hot seats, for example, and I always will like
00:47:13
Speaker
Um, after I record it, I'll summarize the takeaways in bullet points. And that always kind of feels like a chore. Um, and so I dropped my script, my transcript into Claude and it gave me really good summarized bullet points. I was like, okay, well, this is a good use for this tool. Um, but you know, I'm not, I'm not worried yet. I will say that, you know, I know a copy, a lot of copywriters are.
00:47:41
Speaker
especially those whose clients are in those corporate or tech sectors where, you know, quantity is more valued than quality, unfortunately. So I know truly a lot of peers have been impacted by it. But I think there's just such an essential human element to what I do and what other creative types do that.
00:48:10
Speaker
is actually increasingly valuable in an AI world. But honestly, who the hell knows? I don't know. But today, I'm not worried. Yeah, I feel the same. When everyone was all panicked, I was like, I just don't think we need to panic. I don't think a robot will ever be able to have, especially when we talk about needing to emote feelings and tell stories. What's your robot going to do? Make up your story? It can't do that.
00:48:39
Speaker
It can't tell the story about what happened to me in my car last week. Like only I know that story. So, um, but I'm like you, I use it for, I use it for an interesting, um, thing. And maybe if you're listening, this is helpful for you, especially if you're writing emails, but I use it for when I'm doing blog or not blog research, podcast research or keynote writing, um, for my speaking gigs research or sometimes email marketing research.
00:49:03
Speaker
I use it almost like a search engine. So I'll use it to say, Hey, find me 10 high quality quotes from famous people about this topic. And it'll just give me a bunch. And then I go and fact check it, of course. But I find that to be faster than me going on Google and trying to dig through the trenches of like 10 people who have talked about
00:49:22
Speaker
why it's so important to be courageous as a high achiever or whatever. Um, so I've found it helpful for that, but I'm not, I'm not leaning on it to write like massive amounts of copy by any means, but also I like to write so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and there are, there are some definite tells, right? With happy that has been, has been written entirely by chat. What are some words or just maybe obvious, what are some things that stick out to you lately?
00:49:52
Speaker
It, okay. I mean, I feel like I've seen other people share this one, but anytime you see the word, the word unleash now, it's like, it loves unleash. What is it? Tell chat to GBT, please don't say unleash and it'll say, okay. And then it'll proceed to keep saying the word unleash. I don't know. Um, it, it loves, it loves to be, it loves to be verbose. I've noticed that.
00:50:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's really verbose, even when you tell it to tighten it up. You know, you can work with it, it can get better at things, but it loves lots of clauses, it loves throat clearing copy. It loves adjectives. I do too, actually. Yeah, I like adjectives too, but I'm always trying to edit them out where I can, you know, things like that.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah, it just, you know, it has a generic vibe. As I think, as I think most people, once they start playing with it, they're like, this is really cool. And the more they play with it, the more they start to realize like, okay, this has, this has its limitations.
Connect with Cassie
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah. All of a sudden, everything feels kind of vague. And I don't really know what I'm saying anymore, which goes back to the very first thing you shared, which was specificity, right? Like,
00:51:14
Speaker
It's so important for your copy to be specific, who it's calling in, who it's talking to, why they should care, what the transformation is on the other side for them. So yes, it's got its pros and cons for sure. Thank you for chiming in. It's just a fun conversation. Yeah, of course. So tell everybody, I would love for you to tell them how they can find you, how they can learn more from you because you're filled with good copywriting tips. And then obviously they can hire you if they're at that stage as well.
00:51:44
Speaker
Yeah, of course. Thank you so much. This is really fun, by the way. I hang out primarily on Instagram, and I'm also on threads at Metal and Tonic Co. That's M-E-T-T-L-E. The Speakeasy, as you mentioned, is my newsletter and hideaway for brave business owners, and that's where
00:52:03
Speaker
You know, I do talk a lot about messaging insights, copy tips, but I also host things like virtual events that are just for subscribers. And I give away monthly copy reviews there. So we should definitely come hang. And yeah, obviously done for you copywriting. And my group program is the draft house. It's like having a copy consultant on retainer and
00:52:33
Speaker
That's where you get even more copy reviews, some copy coaching, and that kind of thing. So lots of ways to hang. So cool. Thank you. We'll put all that in the show notes as well. But thank you so much. It's been a pleasure getting to know you and obviously sharing all of your good nuggets with our listeners today. So thank you for being here, Cassie. Thank you, Tiffany. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
00:52:57
Speaker
Thank you so much for tuning in today. I hope you really enjoyed this episode. If you took away a little nugget from our conversation, please share on Instagram, tag me at Tiffany Napper. We would love to see that and give you a little repost. And of course, if you're loving this or more, please share this podcast episode with a friend and tell them to tune in as well. Every time we get more listeners to this podcast, it lets us know we're reaching the right audience and we're continuing to help you grow and go.
00:53:25
Speaker
Until next time, remember this or more is in your future. See you soon.