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Embracing Vulnerability: Integrated Parenting and Personal Growth (feat. Jon Fogel)
104 Plays6 months ago
In our latest episode, Jon Fogel joins us to dive deep into the nuances of **emotional health and holistic parenting** from a dad's perspective. As a father to three boys and an influential voice in the parenting creator space, Jon sheds light on the challenges and triumphs of nurturing a healthy emotional environment at home.
Here are three key takeaways from this profound discussion:
- **Integration of Emotions**: Understanding and integrating your fears and vulnerabilities is crucial for emotional health. Jon emphasizes that facing these aspects can lead to a fuller and more authentic life.
- **Impact of Male Cultural Norms**: We explore how societal expectations around masculinity affect emotional development and expression, often leading men to suppress their feelings. This suppression can have far-reaching consequences, including on family dynamics and personal growth.
- **The Role of Apologies in Healing**: The power of acknowledging mistakes and apologizing, especially from adults to children, is monumental in mending and strengthening relationships. It’s a step towards breaking cycles of emotional suppression and trauma.
Don’t miss this insightful conversation aimed at inspiring not just dads, but all parents to foster a home environment where emotions are respected and nurtured rather than shunned or ignored. Perfect for anyone interested in personal growth, healthier family dynamics, and emotional resilience.
🔗 **Listen now to get inspired and maybe even transform your approach to parenting and personal well-being!**
#Parenting #EmotionalHealth #Masculinity #PersonalGrowth #TheIntegratedManProject #JonFogel #Podcast
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Instagram: @integratedmanproject
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Transcript
Introduction & Membership Opportunity
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode of the Integrated Man Project podcast. Before we jump into this week's episode, I did want to share about an exclusive membership I want to be launching to help shape the Integrated Man Project community. If this is something you'd be interested in, where you will be co-laboring with me, sharing your ideas, giving input, giving me feedback, part of kind of this process of creating something bigger and better for all men,
00:00:27
Speaker
I would love for you to join. And if this is something you're interested, please reach out to me, email me at integratedmanproject at gmail.com. You could also send me a direct message on Instagram as well or on LinkedIn. I would love for you to reach out to me. I would love for you to be part of this exclusive group to help again, shape and form this integrated man community.
00:00:50
Speaker
Because as you do this, as we share in this journey together, we're going to create a community of men around the world where we become more grounded, more adaptable, more resilient, and more authentic men. So come on and join. If you're interested in this, please reach out to
Meet John: The Whole Parent
00:01:09
Speaker
me. And without further ado, let's get into this week's episode.
00:01:19
Speaker
Welcome everybody to this week's episode of the podcast. I'm stoked to have this guest on again, my buddy John. So, hey, John, quickly, for those that don't know you, who are you real quick? Yeah, for those who don't know me, which is probably everyone, my name is John. I am a whole parent on Instagram and TikTok.
00:01:38
Speaker
YouTube and I have a podcast and basically I talk about healthy parenting from the perspective of a dad, from the perspective of a guy. So many of the parenting creators out there are amazing, thoughtful, wise women and so few are men.
Holistic Parenting Approach
00:01:58
Speaker
And those who are men tend to be people who are from the Academy, from the Ivory Tower. These are doctors or people who have advanced degrees, PhDs in child development, etc. And I am not. So I talk about parenting from the trenches. I have three young kids, seven, two, and three. That was a weird way to say those in not chronological order.
00:02:23
Speaker
Let's talk about that more. Seven, two, and three. And yeah, my middle child always coming in last. And three boys, three boys. And so, you know, as a dad with three boys, I feel like so much of the parenting advice that I get is great, but also, you know, it doesn't always apply and it doesn't always land. And so that's why I have my account. And that's what I talk about and just trying to be whole people.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah. That's it. And I'm going to make this joke again because I'm also a dad and I said the first time you're on, it's whole with a W. It's whole with a W. But after I was on last time, I did go out and get that username just to be safe. Yeah. I'm telling you, I think that's the bread and butter right there is whole parent.
00:03:04
Speaker
Well, and maybe someday, I think that here's the thing, it's so much more than parenting. I started with parenting because it's something that I'm really passionate about and also it's something that I do have some education in, but really it's so much more than parenting.
Integration & The Enneagram
00:03:22
Speaker
Being a person in this world, you're so many things.
00:03:26
Speaker
Whole is a really important word for me because it kind of speaks to the holistic, which is a funny word because it's not spelled with a W, even though it's talking about the W type of whole. That was a struggle for me as a dyslexic kid growing up, as you can tell. But as a holistic kind of holistic mindset of life, you could be a whole partner.
00:03:47
Speaker
You can be a whole child. How do you react to parents who maybe didn't do things perfectly? How do you integrate work-life balance? Are those things that you are finding juxtaposed, or are those things that your work is feeding into and nourishing your life? The whole piece is really important, and it's not whole as in there's a hole in your life without kids. It is really like you have to figure out a way to make it all work.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think with that definition of what you're kind of bringing these different aspects together and different parts of self, you know, as a parent, as a man, as a, you know, work, whatever you do, all these different pieces of ourselves. And it kind of like the purpose of this show is really about being integrated. And, you know, as John thinks about what it means to be integrated,
00:04:39
Speaker
in his life or what he's doing to create integration. And I akin that similar to being like holistically healthy, right? Or balanced, right? Or whole, I think they're all very similar, saying very similar things. I think what the aim is for all of them is striking some type of healthy balance to be effective. That's why when I think of the name of this podcast being integrated, really another way I would say is being, how do I be effective in all areas of life? Am I being effective?
00:05:06
Speaker
And so what do you think? When you think of being integrated in your life now, what is John doing? What does it look like for John? And what does John think about integration?
Understanding Integration & Self-Awareness
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think integration is such an interesting term. And it's so fun to talk about this and not just to go a little bit deeper here and not just, you know, I feel like whenever I'm on podcasts, on my podcast, so much of it is about parenting. And what I try and say over and over is that
00:05:30
Speaker
oftentimes the thing that's most limiting or most challenging in our parenting journey is actually our work with ourselves. So how do we get back to who we are? How do we understand the things that are happening almost to us by us, if that makes sense? If we don't have the conscious awareness of why we're triggered or whatever,
00:05:53
Speaker
A lot of that stuff has to do with the fact that the first and most important person that we have to parent is ourselves. And so when I think about being integrated, I don't know how familiar Travis you are with the Enneagram, but one of my first introductions into the personality typing world, which is a world.
00:06:14
Speaker
Yeah, there's like a whole community of people, you know, and people like go to war and sell their first borns because they're a Myers Briggs person or an Enneagram person or this person or that person. And my first introduction into the Enneagram, the Enneagram is this really awesome system that's often really misunderstood and misapplied.
00:06:32
Speaker
My introduction into it was actually most with the integration and disintegration aspects of it. And so when I think about the word integrated, my first thought is Enneagram. And so if you're not familiar, it's this weird nine pointed shape. It looks like a circle with a bunch of intersecting lines in it. And the lines represent, if you look at the lines clockwise, they represent where you go when you're healthy and at peace and at rest. And when all aspects of your life are fully nourished,
00:07:02
Speaker
and when you are finding the best of yourself, right? Not when you're operating from a scarcity mindset or when you're just trying to catch up, which is I feel like how so many of us live life is just constantly sleep deprived, constantly overworked, constantly under connected with.
00:07:19
Speaker
But when you're when you're fully fully at your best place, wherever that place of Zen is, you actually go and you distribute or you you become and elicit the traits of another number. So the way that the system set up is it's nine numbers and each of them has somewhat unique traits. And so what I learned about myself was, wow, I can see actually I can't always tell when I'm integrated or not.
00:07:44
Speaker
I can't tell when I'm acting out of my kind of basis instincts or when I'm in fight or flight. I have been so conditioned to just operate in a level that is beyond effectiveness or beneath effectiveness or like just not flourishing that actually by looking at this Enneagram system, I could see where I'm exhibiting traits that show that I'm caring for myself. And namely those traits for my Enneagram type are that I become a person who's
00:08:12
Speaker
committed to others and passionate about caring. And so as a dad, I actually learned that when I'm not connecting with my kids, that means there's something going on in my life that's not okay. And so then I can dig and then I can get out my journal or I can go to therapy or whatever and I can dig.
00:08:30
Speaker
and try and figure out where is that place. So integration for me is just living to the fullest of your potential because you have your basic needs. That's how I would describe it. I think anything beyond that, self-actualization and all these other wonderful things,
00:08:46
Speaker
I think if you don't have your basis needs, Matt, I'm a big Maslow, Abraham Maslow guy. If you don't have your basis needs, Matt, you're not going to be able to do those things. So that's a really roundabout way of saying what I think integrative means is the traits that you are able to offer to the world, the traits that you embody when you are a place where your needs, your fundamental needs, and also your higher level needs are
Impact of Childhood Experiences
00:09:11
Speaker
being met.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yeah. And I think in your game, I'm a nine those that are wondering. Um, so I'm an, I'm an eight. Yeah. I have an eight wing. I have a nine with an eight wing. Um, so yeah, people have no idea what we're talking about. I know it's okay. Hey, if they want to dig deep, they can dig deep. That's you choose your own adventure. Those that are listening. If you want to listen, go, if you want to dig deep, go for it. Um, but no nine with an eight wing and, uh, pipeline is, is a long rabbit trail.
00:09:36
Speaker
It really is. A lot of books. I have like probably four different books on the Enneagram in this office. I'm also fascinated by it and I think the way they use it right is, you know, another way to put it is you're moving towards health, right? Another word you could put on there, you know, a more effective space versus kind of a
00:09:55
Speaker
I would say maybe even a survival state. I think we move to a more survival-ish state of being more in disintegration. And even from a psychological, emotional term, I think being disintegrated is kind of more primitive. It's more survival, and it tends to be in a way where there's a disconnection between mind and body and soul. There's some barrier. There's a miscommunication almost, so to speak, and they're not really hearing each other
00:10:23
Speaker
type of a thing and they're just trying to just survive in their own little islands. Like my mind is just trying to do one thing, my body is trying to do its other thing, and my soul, whatever you want to call it, spirit, is doing its own thing. And so they're all trying to do it. And then that creates problems in my life, whether with as a parent, if I'm a parent, that could look like with being overworked, overstressed, overtired, that could look like me yelling a ton, that could look like me, I don't know, watching TV at night when the kids are in bed or drinking too much or I mean, any slew of things.
00:10:49
Speaker
of coping mechanisms, right? And then obviously it has a snowball effect over the days, weeks, months, years. And disintegration too could, I think, come from a whole bunch of our past experiences, what was taught to us, how we had to survive. And I think of a lot of the stuff you've been talking about lately on your Instagram account, which is on yelling.
00:11:09
Speaker
how what yelling does to your own individual internal state of being as a yell, and not that, there's times and places to yell, right? If I'm yelling at a soccer match because I'm cheering my kid on, that's different. I'm talking about like screaming at your kids or screaming at your spouse or your partner and saying hurtful things. And when you are not in control type of thing, when you are disintegrated or dysregulated, when you are kind of in that state of anger, aggression and your own fight, freeze, flight state and just trying to like seek control, right?
00:11:38
Speaker
That's a state of disintegration. It's so interesting to me that you just named, just to go back to the Enneagram for one more second before people turn this off because they don't know about it. But as an Enneagram 9, I have done trainings on the Enneagram. There was a time in my life before I was into parenting when I could have been an Enneagram creator. As an Enneagram 9, it's really interesting that your integration point
00:12:05
Speaker
and your disintegration point would be a six, because what you said at the beginning of the podcast was like, to be integrated is to be effective,
Emotional Regulation & Trauma
00:12:12
Speaker
which is like, that's what threes, that's like what they're going for, right? When you're in your best place, you're like, I just want to be as effective as my wife's a three. So I know. So like, so like, she's at all times just like, wait, wait, wait, are we doing the most effective thing right now?
00:12:28
Speaker
And it's so interesting, that can pose a really negative aspect, but also when you're doing it, you're in a place, a healthy place, and you're going to effectiveness, and it works, versus you go to a six as a nine when you're disintegrated, which is the anxiety place. The negative traits of the six are highly anxious, which is like, yeah, I'm fight or flight. So for me, when I go disintegrated, I actually don't go to anxiety, although I do. I shouldn't say that, I do. But I go to isolationist.
00:12:57
Speaker
because I would go to like a five as an eight. And so because I go to a five, I'm just like, let me put my head down and work constantly. My kind of toxic disintegrated trait when I need to do something is I just shut everyone out and I close the door and I work until like four in the morning without coffee, without nothing. Just grind.
00:13:20
Speaker
solo and I will be like, don't help me. My wife is better at everything than me. So like she could literally come in and do all of my marketing stuff that I need to do or something like better than me. But I'm like, no, don't help me. I'm not healthy versus I'm like, that's, that's kind of the beauty of the Enneagram. Like that's what it looks like. I isolate from everyone when I'm, when I'm disintegrated versus I reach out to people when I'm integrated. I go and I try and connect with people. I become a two. So I'm like, how can I assist and how can I help?
00:13:47
Speaker
And I think that regardless of all that, even if you don't subscribe to the Enneagram, you think it's just a glorified horoscope or whatever, what we're all identifying with the Enneagram or whatever, we're just trying to make meaning out of our experiences at the core. And in that meaning-making process, there's basically four different ways that we make meaning.
00:14:11
Speaker
This is kind of my philosophy on these things, but one of the primary ways that we make meaning is just to justify our own existence and to justify our own trauma. And so I think the yelling thing comes a lot from mostly, I would say, from people for whom one of two things is true. Either they were yelled at,
00:14:29
Speaker
or they were told not to process their emotions. They were taught to suppress their emotions. And if it was that they were yelled at, then the justification is, my parents loved me because I don't know my, humans are inherently social creatures and if your parents didn't love you, it's very disorienting as a social creature.
00:14:46
Speaker
So my parents must have loved me. And this is why abuse and neglect are so harmful, by the way. My parents must have loved me. And at the same time, my parents also yelled at me. And by the way, this goes for hitting as well. My parents loved me, but they spanked me. My parents loved me, but they locked me in a room by myself for hours at a time. My parents loved me, but whatever traumatic thing. So therefore, if they loved me, I must have deserved it, or I must have earned it, or it must have been effective because the person who I am today
00:15:14
Speaker
came from that. And that would be very disconcerting to me to learn that there's something wrong with me, which I'm not saying there is, but that there was any negative part of my parenting journey, the journey of being parented. And so like, I think that that's where it comes from is people, they have to justify their own parents' actions. And so whether it's, you know, whether they're a nine or a one or a six or a four, it doesn't really matter if you were yelled at as a kid, you're going to yell because it's a justification and a meaning making.
00:15:44
Speaker
of your own circumstances. And then the other piece is that most of us, especially men, I think this is especially important for men, we're taught that the exhibition of emotion was something to be avoided. Boys don't cry, rub some dirt on it. That's nothing to be disappointed about. I'll give you something to feel sorry about. All of these things at their core were about trying to suppress the emotional outbursts of children.
00:16:12
Speaker
which they're too big. That's part of having an underdeveloped brain. Your kid does overreact to things. I'm not saying that it's not an overreaction. It is. It is inappropriate if I as an adult had the type of emotional reaction to not getting M&Ms at the grocery store that my two-year-old does. It is an overreaction.
00:16:29
Speaker
I've worked with those people in a therapeutic setting and there's a term for that, a real psychological diagnosis, often borderline personality disorder, which tends to essentially be a person who's stuck in a kind of a childlike emotional state where they cannot regulate their emotions. So it does occur as an adult and it looks much like a five-year-old where they can't regulate effectively. It's almost like, I don't even like the term borderline personality disorder, by the way, they change the name.
00:16:54
Speaker
It should be more emotional dysregulation disorder. They can't regulate effectively and communicate effectively. We know they're hurting, but it looks like a five-year-old who said no to having ice cream in the store. Right, and then they lash out and they yell. And so what winds up happening, if you're kind of tracking the process here, is you were yelled at either because
Healing Through Apologies
00:17:15
Speaker
you couldn't regulate your emotions because your brain wasn't developed enough and your parents didn't know how to regulate their emotions because they were yelled at.
00:17:22
Speaker
So it just trickles down and then you become a parent and then you start yelling at your kids. And then what are your kids going to do? They're going to yell at their kids. So really, the reason I talk about this is because it doesn't just have generational impact for us. It doesn't just change the way in which you relate to your kids when they're 30, although that's a good enough reason in and of itself. It means that your kids at 30 are going to completely have a different experience of parenting
00:17:50
Speaker
because they're not going to have to go through the same types of problems that you did. And they'll have other things to deconstruct. They'll have other problems that you didn't or weren't aware of. They'll have problematic things around whatever the thing is in 2050 that they're concerned about then, but at least you will have broken for them the cycle of screaming and shouting. And I think that that's huge.
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah, and I think with that, when you are yelled at excessively, not, you know, we all have those one-off moments. And that's, you know, just to differentiate for people listening, I have one-off moments. I'm sure John has one-off moments. That's not really the impactful thing for kids. It's more of the consistent, like what's the consistent pattern and behavioral, not because we all have, I think to some degree, understand that people make mistakes and sure, I'll forget. Let's, let's heal and work through it. Those are not talking about that.
00:18:42
Speaker
all good people even have those moments because we're human. It's more about what's the consistent habitual pattern of behavior. And when you are habitually yelled at as a kid, it does cause, I'm gonna use this word, a disintegration, a fabric, like a splitting, if you will, of an internal psyche, especially you talked about being a boy. If you're told don't feel something or yell that, or you're told things like don't be such a girl, that's a fun one, or don't be,
00:19:09
Speaker
you know, you need to man up, don't cry. That creates a disintegration because that kid, that boy now has to, in a way, cut off parts of self, repress parts of self, shame parts of self, hide parts of self. Essentially, also he's trying to hide natural occurring phenomenon that is emotional states, which occurs in everybody, psychologically, emotionally, physically, everything. These are natural normal things to exhibit. And he's being told what is normal is not normal,
00:19:39
Speaker
Well then that creates a disintegration between mind and body because I have to to survive and so to survive is to say if I have to be disintegrated and now that's been my habit from young age to now I'm 30 my whole life I've lived in essentially a realm of like being disintegrated from self or parts of self and I have to okay now what that's normal to me that's normal to me quote-unquote right you know so now how do I change that right?
00:20:02
Speaker
Well, and that's yeah, I mean, I think it begins with just simple acknowledgement, right? That I'm not trying to answer that question because that question is impossible to simple acknowledgement of the things that you've gone through. And that alone is a lifetime journey to learn to acknowledge and name
00:20:21
Speaker
the experiences that you've had throughout your life. And I'll just say that you'll appreciate this as a therapist, but whatever you leave not processed, that is not benign. When you don't process through things, whether it was by
00:20:41
Speaker
uh, intention or, or just, you know, unintentionally your parents got you to a point where you're not processing through your emotions as a child. That's not benign. And the way that I like to say this is that if you don't work through the traumatic parts of your life, they're just going to work through you.
00:20:57
Speaker
right like like they're gonna work themselves like you're gonna work out your trauma in one way or another you're going to experience those feelings in one way or another all of us know that this is the pressure cooker like especially men like we know that this is the pressure cooker so many horrible aspects of
00:21:17
Speaker
you know, unfortunate side effects of male culture, whether it's domestic violence or whatever, like the pressure cooker that builds these things is you never expressed any of your feelings. And eventually your feelings started expressing your, you like they started just like,
00:21:32
Speaker
And does that look like masculine, positive, integrated life to just be run by your emotions because you're unwilling to experience them? I mean, that to me is like so laughable. Men all the time get on my videos and they're like,
00:21:50
Speaker
this is such a pansy way of raising kids and this is such a this, this, this, and you know, oh, like everybody's feelings these days. Facts don't care about your feelings. Like, and all I want to say is like, yeah, this is you're on somebody's Instagram video or tick tock video or Facebook video or whatever, like ranting at a person that you don't know. This is what it looks like to be run by your emotion.
00:22:12
Speaker
Well, and also, it's all, I think, to take it a step further, emotions also, it's like that's the narrative. It's the story he has to probably tell himself to convince him that he's normal. Because to admit for him, and this is where I'm kind of been working on a research I've been doing and, you know, possibly like, you know, books that I'm, a book that I'm working on. We just talked about this in the green room.
00:22:33
Speaker
Is that to say otherwise
Vulnerability & Connection
00:22:35
Speaker
is a threat to my nervous system to say that hey John is saying might be more correct and accurate and healthy but I can't say that because that to say that that's more true and aligned and more healthy is in a way I've had to my nervous system my body subconsciously has to see that as a threat.
00:22:52
Speaker
And so the only way we have to deal with a threat is what? Fight, flight, freeze, right? Shut down. So I'm going to fight that. So my fighting is, hey, that's wussy pansy, whatever, because I have to convince myself so strongly because that's what I tell myself. And that's, it's like, that's the catch 22 is that in a way he's got to perpetuate that belief because that's what he had to do. And so when I see this video, it might be, it's probably pulling something, right? I guarantee you triggering. And he's, it's like, but I, but he was left because there was no one there to like,
00:23:19
Speaker
say, Hey, your dad, you don't use wrong. Hey, your mom hitting you is wrong. Like there was no one there to step in and offer protection or guidance or wisdom. So I had to convince myself that this is whatever A, B, C, D, E, F, G, because that's what I that's like what I've known. You know, such a good point. And just to say, you know, a huge section of what I talk about a major part of a book that I've, I
00:23:42
Speaker
You know, I've, I've written and, and we'll come out in January of 25. If somehow you're listening to this. Yeah. TBD. It'll come out in January 25. So get ready. Um, uh, get on my email list and you'll get the link that there you go. When it comes out, just don't unsubscribe. Um, you know, a big part of that, one of my main chapters is, is about reconciliation repair. And one of the things I point to there is, you know, if you're listening to this right now and you're like, okay, but, but what do I, I'm 55. What do I do now? My kids are 20.
00:24:12
Speaker
My kids are 17. Is it too late? I've been yelling at them since they were two. It's not too late. How powerful would it be for you? Travis, me, John, anybody listening as an adult, even if your parents 30 years older than you, 40 years older than you, whatever, called you up on the phone tomorrow and said, Hey, when you were a kid, I yelled a lot or I spanked you or I had this or have that.
00:24:39
Speaker
and I was listening to this by a guest, or I was reading this book, or I was on social media, and I was really convicted that I probably didn't need to do that stuff, and that was more about me than it was about you.
00:24:54
Speaker
and you really were a really good kid and I should have been more careful and I should have done myself work and I'm going to work on that and so you don't have to worry about that with your grandkids or with my grandkids with your kids because I'm doing that work and that was not okay that I did that and I hope that you can find a way to forgive me for that.
00:25:13
Speaker
You're going to tell me that it would be too late for you. Like that happened at 30 years old. Would that be too late? Like, no. So, so if your kid's 16, 17, 18, 25, 50 years old, you can always be that person. It doesn't have to be someone else to say your dad yelled at you. It can be your dad.
Practical Steps for Integration
00:25:33
Speaker
And if you're gonna sit around and wait for that to happen, oh, my parents will never do that, you're right, there's a good chance that your parents will never. But some do. But many will. And be the type of person who looks at the integrated people apologize. That's one thing I'll say, if we're talking about integrated people, integrated men know how to apologize because they're not so defensive. And that's one of the things, people are so afraid to apologize in general, I think men are most afraid to apologize to their kids.
00:26:02
Speaker
because it threatens their sense of, I'm the king, I'm the CEO of this family, I'm the president of this family. Instead of doing all that, realize that the best leaders are the ones who take accountability. And I can speak to that personally, John, because I didn't talk to my dad for about three years. I wrote him a letter years ago. I won't go into the details. But essentially he said, hey, having kids, I'm taking a step back due to some of the behaviors and decisions you're making, just not healthy, not going to be around it.
00:26:30
Speaker
Long story short, three years later after that, my dad essentially called me up, we went to Starbucks, I know exactly, it was right before Thanksgiving, I think a week before Thanksgiving, 20, maybe 2019, no 2019, 2019, 2019, I think.
00:26:45
Speaker
before the pandemic or no year before the pandemic 2018 and it was the first time he sat down I remember and he just started he apologized for things without any type of blame or manipulation and it was the very first time like it was just like this genuine
00:27:02
Speaker
and there was a part of me that did not trust it at all. And I think I had very good reasons not to believe it. But another part of me that was like, yes, I've been longing for this moment forever. And I'll be 40 this year, I think it was 30, 34, I think, when we first started the conversation, 35. And then we took another, the next time I talked, it was like six months after that, we talked more openly again, he owned up to some stuff.
00:27:30
Speaker
And then six months later, it was really, really slow process. And then we started having more regular conversations. And I'll tell you what, he became an integrated man, healthy, a lot of his own healing work, very aware. And now, now, I mean, this is like six years later, gosh, we're probably the closest we've ever been because of the work he's done. And also my willingness to listen. I think it was both and. Now I got to a place, by the way, that I got to a place of acceptance thinking, you know what, I may never have a kind of relationship with my father ever again that I would want.
00:28:00
Speaker
And I got to a place of kind of acceptance of being okay and not being so stuck in the loss and the pain. I did grieve that for a while. And I felt really at peace about saying, you know, like, I know I'm doing the right thing, but then it shifted and I had to get challenged again and open myself up. And there was some hesitation there because I didn't want to get hurt.
00:28:16
Speaker
But I just want to share that, that I know that, that the reality is, man, when I hear people in my office, really what we're longing for, we all want that. If we could, I would say most people in my office would say, yeah, I want my parent to say that. That's what I've been wanting my whole life, right? Because there's this natural wiring to want that. When you can't control other people's actions, like this is the acceptance, right? And this is the thing, and thank you for sharing that. That's a powerful story that speaks to the efficacy of this.
00:28:44
Speaker
And thank you also for mentioning that this wasn't like a Hallmark movie where he said, I'm sorry, and then he came to Thanksgiving a week later. You know what I mean? Like, it's a process. It was a process. And for my wife, too. That's nothing. It was a process for my wife differently than mine. She had to go through her. She didn't have to. She chose to because she saw the impact on me, but she was more hesitant because she saw the pain it caused me from her perspective. She's like, I don't want that for you. So she was way more hesitant. And I respect that.
00:29:14
Speaker
Yeah. That's part of, you know, that's the thing is that both of you and your father had to choose vulnerability. And this is the thing that integrated people can do, that non-integrated people, at least from my perspective, cannot do, is that when you are afraid of everything, which is really what
00:29:33
Speaker
the feeling of disintegration is, right? Like it's a, it's fear at its core and not to like, you know, go all like super alpha male and everything is fear that's problem in your life. But like it really it's, you're afraid, you're afraid to open yourself up. You're afraid this, you're afraid of that. And fear is good to many extents because fear is what stops you from grabbing the cast iron pan out of the, out of the stove. You know, um, fear is the thing that puts your coat on before you, uh,
00:30:01
Speaker
go out in the cold, not just because it might be cold, but because you realize your car could break down, right? Like there's healthy fear. The fear is the reason that all of us have smoke alarms in our house. And that's a good thing. Here's the reason I wear a seatbelt, and that's a good thing. That's my body protecting me. But when we're so afraid of everything, when we're living in a perpetual state of disintegration, because we've been hurt, and we have not processed through that hurt, we've not gone through it, we've not done the work,
00:30:29
Speaker
then we lack an ability to be vulnerable.
Continuous Process of Integration
00:30:33
Speaker
And I'm sure you know this as much as anyone, but certainly something that I'm always learning about is how that opening yourself up to vulnerability is actually opening yourself up to the fullest life that you can. That when you choose to, I call it having a customs office of emotions. Like when you have a customs, the customs office of emotions where every emotion has to be checked
00:30:57
Speaker
and, you know, patted down before it comes through your body, then then they all kind of lose. None of them are quite as vibrant to truly live an integrated, full, joyful life, both with your kids and with your spouse and with yourself.
00:31:12
Speaker
you have to be willing to be hurt. And if you're not willing to be hurt, then you won't really feel joy. And that's one of those ancient wisdom teachings that's so important. But if there's one thing about integration, integrated people apologize, also integrated people have the vulnerability to be able to apologize, which I think so many of us were so afraid. So many people are afraid that they're messing up as a parent, that they're terrified that they'll
00:31:41
Speaker
And that don't live in fear. You're doing a great job. Probably. Yeah. And the point you made is very important that it's not we have to get away from the hallmark moment that movies make. The reality is it's a journey and and it takes time. And that journey is a is an ongoing process, even even for me at the time, it was an ongoing process of, OK, am I going to trust?
00:32:03
Speaker
And how much am I going to trust my dad at this moment and this next conversation? What has he shown me? What is his behavioral differences been? Has he been consistent? You know, what's he saying? How is he saying, like really aware and what, and noticing myself too, like what am I, what's going on for me in these conversations? Am I defensive? Am I feeling, am I, am I, you know, rushing that judgment? Am I like, it's kind of really this constant awareness and evaluation and assessing where am I right now? Am I actually present or am I already prejudging? Like,
00:32:29
Speaker
These are things that were happening in the moment and it was a process and an integration is a, to some degree, it's a lifelong process of being integrated, I would say. I don't know if you're ever done or there. I can't say that with certainty. I think it's ongoing.
00:32:50
Speaker
Well, yeah, I think, you know, practice makes better is kind of my thing. And so, you know, just to even identify all of the things that you just named, right? The metacognition, the introspective self-awareness, the emotional attunement with yourself. Like all of these things are not things that Travis developed, you know, instantly overnight. Like these are things that develop over years.
00:33:16
Speaker
And in order to be in such a high-leverage situation with a parent of all people, I mean, we lack boundaries with all sorts of people in the world. We lack boundaries with our parents in really, really, yeah, I would say parents are even worse. And the part of that is, like, literally, there was, we couldn't be boundaried from them.
00:33:39
Speaker
No, like there had to be a time and a place of no boundaries. I mean, I don't want to alienate anyone who's who who has adopted or is adopted. But there there is also like, think about it from a biological perspective, like the majority of us or all of us were in our mother's wombs. There's no boundary there.
00:33:56
Speaker
We're sharing blood and hormones like it's messy and parenting is messy. And so to be in such a high leverage situation with a parent and to still have the presence of mind and self-awareness to be able to do that metacognition and emotional attunement. I think that that's a testament to all the work that you did before that too.
00:34:20
Speaker
And that's the thing is that so many people probably listening are like, okay, well, how do I, how do I, I'm estranged from a family member or a, you know, whatever. And I want to do this work. Yeah. Let's, let's crawl before we can run. You know what I mean? Like, how about we like, how about we like stop screaming at the person in the car next to us who just cut us off before we try and like have a heart to heart with our estranged dad.
00:34:43
Speaker
And I think that that's the thing that a lot of people want in a microwave culture where everybody wants things, you know, same day on Amazon. Like it's really hard to tell people that, hey, this is going to be a process, not just of two years to becoming reunited with your estranged parent, but also of the three years before that, the six years before that of becoming emotionally aware and attuned enough.
00:35:08
Speaker
And most people just frankly aren't, they're just coming home, they're overworked, they're exhausted, and they're not even able to start to practice, so they're never gonna play. And so all my encouragement to anybody listening is just practice. Practice now before you need it, because this is the stuff that really matters, and it makes or breaks life.
00:35:30
Speaker
Yeah, I know it really does. And I thank you for your kind words. Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm gonna take that one for the day and wear that, so I really do.
Closing Thoughts & Community Invitation
00:35:41
Speaker
And I agree, we live in a culture that resonates to that microwave, the TikTok, it's the 30 second, it's the real culture, right? The 60 second culture.
00:35:51
Speaker
The reality is relationships and health and integration is not that. It's anything but that. It's time. It's ups and downs. It's drudgery. It's pain, sorrows, victory. It's all those things and I think the more people know that and that's why Cher is like, hey, this is the reality and I did my own work. I did therapy before I became a therapist and I became a therapist and I think that therapy degree even helped me.
00:36:13
Speaker
I'm still learning, like you said, it's messy, I'm still aware and I still stumble, but it's a process, you know? And the cool thing is I get to share them on this platform different than in my office, because I'm there for people who are, I'm their therapist, right? Or I'm their coach, so it's a little different. But I get to talk here and they get to hear glimpses, because I want them to know, I'm a human at first, you know, a human being first, you know, I'm just, I happen to have a degree that helps me know things and tools, but the reality is, first and foremost, I'm a human being.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah, and I have feelings and everything everybody else, you know, yeah, I think well, I think it's very I mean the sharing a story is powerful obviously within the right boundary setting, right? Yeah, you can't do that in a therapy environment where where it's a it's a mono directional, you know relationship but but I think it's yeah, I think it's important and I just think that
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, just even by saying it, right? So many people, they don't even know that that's the place to begin. That the place to begin is always going in and is always pausing to reflect. That's the hard work.
00:37:18
Speaker
of you said the TikTok culture, people don't want to, nobody wants to take a break. And I'll just add one last piece. When you said the drudgery of the work, the first thing that I thought of was how kind of circling back to where we started a little bit, but so many people, the reason that they can't even do the drudgery, the like
00:37:38
Speaker
the delving into, the dredging up of their childhood and their emotional wounds and the metacognition is because they're just too freaking tired. They just aren't getting enough sleep. If you want a place to start becoming integrated, eat better, sleep more. Move a bit more, too. Yeah, workout. These are basic things that you learned or you should have learned in health class.
00:38:04
Speaker
connect with your partner, have sex. These are the parts of you that have to be felt and met to an extent. And so if you're not meeting those, and by the way, that might look like pouring into the intimacy with your partner first.
00:38:22
Speaker
Right. And so they can look a lot of different ways. But but ultimately what it all comes down to is if your blower needs so many people try and like read atomic habits, right? They read atomic habits or like, you know, any of the other self-help books out there, of which I'm killing where I'm writing a self-help book. So like, whatever. But they read the self-help because they go, you know what, I'm just going to jump to stage 10.
00:38:45
Speaker
And I'm going to do so on four hours of sleep, you know, way overworked at a job that I hate when I just had three Big Macs this week and, you know, 14 shots of espresso. And then I'm going to do and then I'm going to do the work and a 12 pack last night.
00:39:02
Speaker
and a 12 pack last night when that I chased with four and a half gummies and and and here I you know what I mean and here and here I am gonna show up and I'm gonna fix myself like get like get out of your own head like like do this do the easy do the simple things first like do do the easy stuff do the do the hey I'm just gonna eat like more vegetables and sleep eight hours a night I swear to you if everybody ate more vegetables drank more water and ate slime
00:39:31
Speaker
and slept eight hours a night, 90% of your problems would be solved. And then you can actually do the work that we're talking about. Yeah, because that work is tiring and takes energy and resources. Most people just want to come home and watch reality TV because it shuts your brain off.
00:39:48
Speaker
They don't want to listen to a podcast like this that's going to go deep because it's too exhausting. And so if you're that person, just be encouraged. I have been that person at different times. Travis, I'm sure you're that person. Sometimes you do just come home and sit on the couch and do nothing. But if you want to do this work, it starts with taking impeccable care of yourself. And then you can go. Totally. And John, where can we find you?
00:40:15
Speaker
Uh, you can find me at whole parent and all the social media places with a W everyone remind with a W with a W whole parent with a W and, uh, all the social media places. And yeah, check the link in my bio at any of those places for my podcast. I released two episodes a week all about parenting. I just answer parent questions.
00:40:34
Speaker
That's a really exciting thing that I'm doing. And make sure you join the email list because you'll be reminded about the podcast. I don't spam people. I send basically one email a week on Thursdays full of great parenting content. If you want to become a more integrated parent,
00:40:49
Speaker
and a more wholehearted parent, this is your place, especially if you have a guy in your life that I'm not saying that I speak only to men. In fact, the vast majority of my following is still women, but I take home a pretty good percentage of men compared to most other parenting people. So if you have a guy in your life who you want to encourage to parent a little differently,
00:41:13
Speaker
Punishment free parenting, that type of radical stuff. Please hit me up at Whole Parent. Yes, please do. And everyone listening and links will be in the description of the podcast as well as if you're watching this on YouTube, it'll all be clickable for you to click on directly to John. John, blessings. Thank you, my friend. Thank you for having me, Travis.