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Why Punishment-Free Parenting Works: Father's Day Special (with Jon Fogel of Whole Parent)
69 Plays1 day ago
This week, Travis and Pierre sit down with Jon, author of Punishment-Free Parenting, to explore what it means to lead with empathy—not control—as a father, partner, and man.
Jon shares honest stories from his own fatherhood journey and dives into how neuroscience, curiosity, and compassion can help men raise resilient kids without shame or punishment. Together, they challenge outdated models of masculinity and offer practical tools for parenting and personal growth.
Key Highlights:
- How your experience as a son shapes how you show up as a father
- Why punishment fails—and what real connection looks like instead
- The power of curiosity and modeling over control or fear
Challenge:
Reflect on one lesson from your upbringing you want to break—or carry forward. Where can you lead with curiosity instead of control?
📖 Book Giveaway: Leave a review & send a screenshot to info@menscollective.co to enter.
This episode isn’t just for dads. It’s for any man ready to rewrite the story—and raise the next generation with strength and heart.
🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple, & YouTube or visit menscollective.co to go deeper.
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Transcript
Introduction and Book Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, John, could you use your your trailer voice and welcome Welcome to the Men's Collective Podcast. That was legit. Where we talk about men and collectiving together.
00:00:13
Speaker
Beautiful. That was the podcast that brings men together to talk about manliness, masculinity, fatherhood, sonhood, and... Perfect.
00:00:26
Speaker
We'll see if that one sticks in. it might. I'm not sure what if that's going explicit or not. on I don't know. Beep, beep, beep. We'll find out. And just bleep it out, and then they'll have no idea what I said.
00:00:37
Speaker
And bleep, beep. I'll bleep it out. Yeah, I'll do something. All right. I love it. No. So everyone, welcome to this week's episode of the Men's Collective Podcast. So excited to have my good friend John on and of course my co-host Pierre.
00:00:49
Speaker
Some exciting news before we jump into the topic of today. My good friend John from Whole Parent um recently released a book and i'm going to have him hold it up here. Those that are listening, you can't see this, but you should just jump on the video podcast.
00:01:03
Speaker
There it is. It's called Punishment Free Parenting and he is... So kind of generous. He's going to be gifting three books away, signed, that if you want to win one of these free copies of Punishment Free Parenting, which is a, how would you say, a science-based approach to parenting, I guess is a piece of book. Yeah. So the subtitle of the book is The Brain-Based Way to Raise Kids Without Raising Your Voice.
00:01:25
Speaker
So i think I think that that's probably the most accurate description of the book. It's it's neuroscience. It's practical therapy advice. It's cognitive behavioral therapy-based.
00:01:37
Speaker
But but with a but with an interpersonal neurobiology twist. So understanding how your brain physiologically and anatomically functions. And yeah, the the point here being that we can raise kids more effectively and that we actually know the tools that we can use to parent confidently, which is, I think, whatever all dads want.
00:01:55
Speaker
It's like the perfect blend of the book that I wanted to read years ago that is now out. So I'm so glad John finally wrote this book. I know it was a work in progress. And so we wanted to give away a few free copies to a man in your life. If you're if you're a mother, a sister, a wife listening to this podcast and you have a husband, a dad, brother who's raising kids, if you're dad listening, soon to be dad listening,
00:02:20
Speaker
This is a book for you. So we're giving away three copies. And to enter, real simple, you got to leave a review of the podcast, whether on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, whatever works for you. And email us a screenshot of your review at info at menscollective.co. Again, info at menscollective.co.
00:02:39
Speaker
And you enter in free. If you win, when you win, we will email you to get your address. um This, by the way, has to be continentalus.com. Sorry for the UK folks just because shipping becomes insane. So little caveat. and they went can they win in Can they win in Canada, Travis?
00:02:56
Speaker
They could. i What's the shipping up there? I don't even know. I should have looked this up. um Maybe we could get a digital copy to you. Yes, I'm happy to provide a digital copy if you win in Canada.
00:03:08
Speaker
Okay, let's do that. If you win or anywhere, we can get you a digital copy because that doesn't cost us whatever shipping because I don't know. I can't do maths right now. And so we're going to be giving away some copies to by Father's Day. So the deadline to send the review will be, let's see, by Father's Day, leave give us a review, email us a screenshot of the of the review, and you'll be entered to draw free.
00:03:30
Speaker
That's it. We're not going to spam you because we want you to... Be brain-based, science-based parenting and be better because that's what this is about. So anyway, very thankful for John for offering that, very gracious of him. And I think it's just a way to get it into someone's hands just to read it and ah share it and to get it out there.
00:03:49
Speaker
Because I think, you know what? There's a lot of simple strategies that John lays out in his book that is based on science. that is It makes sense when you read it. It's just kind of sometimes redefining what how we think we need a parent.
00:04:02
Speaker
So anyway, jump into the drawing, totally free. And with that said, let's jump into today's topic. So Pierre, what's our topic? What talking about today with John?
00:04:13
Speaker
Why do we have him on?
Fatherhood and Personal Experiences
00:04:15
Speaker
Well, we're talking about fatherhood. And in particular, maybe we start with what it's like to be a son and how that's impacted the way in which you father.
00:04:29
Speaker
Well, yeah, I'll just I'll add one note here. And that's about the book, because I think that this is important as we as I jump into this. And this is this this kind of is going to parry into what I'm going to say about being a son, at least to my dad.
00:04:42
Speaker
I think the the experience of being a son is unique because none of us have the same dad. And I mean that, like, if you're listening to this and you sent it to your brother, you don't have the same dad. Like there, there was a different, distinct, unique relationship between you and your father than anyone else.
00:04:59
Speaker
And so my, even my brothers, their, their experience of my dad was different than my experience of my dad. And there's so much that goes into that. So none of us have the same dad. So I can only speak to my experience fatherhood, but, but one thing I wanted to say about the book,
00:05:12
Speaker
before I jump into that is that ah there are a lot of books, you know, obviously Travis knows some of the authors of these books like Tina Payne Bryson, Dan Siegel. There are lots of books, Stephen Porges, who that are about interpersonal neurobiology, about brain-based parenting.
00:05:30
Speaker
I think the thing that separates my book is that my book feels to people and this is not yeah I wrote it this way intentionally, but I didn't know that it was going to come across this way until it actually was out in the world and people were responding and reviewing it.
00:05:43
Speaker
My book feels specifically like a book that you that you don't feel bad after you read it. So a lot of people read a lot of parenting books and I don't know if you've had this experience. I've certainly had this experience, even if the advice is great and you agree with all of it and it's super grounded in brain based science or whatever.
00:06:01
Speaker
Or therapy or and and it's all great advice. You leave off and feeling like, well, I'm going to do maybe 10% of this and then I'm going to feel like a total garbage parent. And I kind of wish I took the blue pill and just didn't never know what I was doing wrong.
00:06:16
Speaker
i just I wish that I just didn't know all of the things that now I quote unquote should be doing. And I think that the real gift of this book is that it really focuses on like, don't should yourself here.
00:06:28
Speaker
Like you can, you can do as much of this or as little of this. And I'm going to lay it out in a way that's, that's very, very shame free. And so when I say punishment free parenting, a lot of people, you know, a lot of dads to be frank, we'll just kind of back off that. Like, I don't know about that.
00:06:45
Speaker
And we can get into why, why I titled it that. But one of the, the, the key message of the book is that punishment is a terrible teacher. And ah it goes back also to how we read the book. So if you read the book and you feel punished by the book, I failed.
00:07:00
Speaker
So punishments of a terrible teacher, whether it's you punishing your kids or you punishing yourself because you're a terrible parent. and And I will say that that that kind of goes right into, you know, the things that I learned from my dad. I learned a lot of amazing things. so I also learned some some lessons that I've had to unlearn.
00:07:15
Speaker
My dad died when I was 25 He was 65. He died of of small cell bladder cancer, which is an aggressive form of like prostate bladder cancer, which is kind of, you know, it's not the same thing that the former president Joe Biden has, but but it's kind of popping up in the news is like, oh my gosh, wait, this like kills people.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yes. and And the type of cancer that my dad had was almost 100% fatal. There was very, very few treatments. And he went from being this kind of icon of masculinity, quiet masculinity, but, you know, running seven minute miles, keeping, you know, yeah working on his house.
00:07:52
Speaker
He was never really working on a car guy because he grew up at a car dealership. And so working on his cars always felt to him like he was going to work. So he didn't really want to do that. His dad ran a car dealership, but certainly like, you know, replacing the water heater, painting the house, like, ah you know, digging up the backyard.
00:08:07
Speaker
This was this guy, right, that I was raised by. And it went from this kind of quiet version of masculinity to to a shell of himself in debt in a year. So so a lot of my process of of growth as a dad has been looking back on the first 25 years of my life with my dad.
00:08:28
Speaker
And going, okay, so at the end of his life, we had this really great relationship. It became, i mean, it's very difficult in the last year of life as people get sick and, and, you know, they're hurting and they're lashing out and stuff like that. But i had this great relationship with my dad, but, but in earlier years, I didn't always have a great relationship with my dad. I definitely went to my mom for things more.
00:08:48
Speaker
i I knew that I was going to have the emotional connection. He was kind of walled off emotionally, And it was only later that I kind of received this unconditional positive regard where nothing I could do would would really phase him. And he was always on my team. Even when I would make mistakes, he was always on my team.
00:09:06
Speaker
but But for him, that was later. so that was So what I really learned from my dad was, wow, ever all the best learning like that came from my dad were in the positive experiences that what we had with one another. Yeah, some of those positive experiences were I screwed up royally.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I needed to be helped out of a situation. But here comes this guy who's not going to judge me, who's not going to criticize, who might teach me, but in the process is is always going to be on my team.
00:09:36
Speaker
The problem for me is that that happened much later. so So that was basically all, ah most of my mistakes after about 16 years old, that was who that guy was. But certainly when I'm seven, six, five, and I'm acting up and I'm doing the the little kid thing,
00:09:50
Speaker
My dad responded to that triggered. Like he screamed, he yelled, he like didn't know what to do. And, and so really the evolution of my relationship with my dad in many ways taught me how to be a dad.
00:10:03
Speaker
And I just looked at towards the end of our relationship where so much of this was good. I call, i say that he's my best friend, like so much of it was good. And I, I look at the end and I go, yeah. And, and had this been from day one,
00:10:18
Speaker
Which, by the way, my dad is a brother. And what I experienced growing up for my cousin, obviously I wasn't in their home, but was kind of the best versions of my dad was kind of how his brother was with his son.
00:10:31
Speaker
So, so I saw actually a vision of this. They both grew up though in a home that had some yelling, that had some shame, that had some punishment. And so, so there was a lot to deconstruct, but also I i have really learned the best lessons out of that.
00:10:47
Speaker
Now, this guy was also, like I said, the guy who would come home and if the house was a mess, he would just start screaming and fire off and, you know He'd pick up your toy and act like he was going to throw it through the window and he'd stop himself short of that. But but you know a lot of frustration. This is also a guy worked and and really built, even though i think he himself saw his identity as like being a family man, the the hours on the timesheet don't lie.
00:11:11
Speaker
And so there was definitely, you know, as I got older, he went into work earlier and earlier. He got home from work later and later. Part of that was that he was at this company that was growing and expanding and he wasn't delegating things. And that was one of the things that I've struggled with as well.
00:11:25
Speaker
He beat himself up for every single mistake. That's something that I've struggled with as
Complex Father-Son Relationships
00:11:29
Speaker
well. And so, so it's, it's a melding and it's an enmeshing. And, you know, when somebody dies, especially we tend to, often over romanticize them and say, well, they were all this one thing. They were all their, ah their positive experiences.
00:11:42
Speaker
When I think very realistically, my dad was, my dad was an amalgamation as all of us are of mistakes and, and victories and defeats and, you know, his own baggage and things that he died without ever resolving and things that he grew and he resolved.
00:11:59
Speaker
And I think that like that is if nothing else, I saw a person who in his relationship with me changed. And I don't know if it's just that I changed into a person who was easier to empathize with for him.
00:12:11
Speaker
He was just closer to that stage of life. And so he understood it. Or if actually through aging, he just chilled out and, and started realizing, Hey, like, I'm, um I don't have to take this as as quite as seriously. And when I look at my brothers, I think it's probably a combination because I'm seven years younger than my, my next oldest brother.
00:12:31
Speaker
And he's certainly, I, I, I certainly felt like there was an aspect of like, dulling of the edges of the person who my dad was as well. And my brothers did some of that work for me. They they they did some stuff that that that that made a lot of the stuff that I did not seem so so bad.
00:12:48
Speaker
So i think that that was also that was also a piece. We learn from all the men in our life. And sometimes you know that looks different ways. So certainly my dad gave me the basis. At least, I'll say this, at least he parented me with enough thoughtfulness and consideration that I felt that it was not like a dis disrespecting or desecrating his memory to parent differently.
00:13:15
Speaker
And that's the thing that I'm asked all the time on, on podcasts and and on TV spots is like, well, you know, if you had this great relationship with your dad and he punished you, like why, yeah how could that be? i thought punishment was so bad. And it's like, well, no, actually like I know that he would want me to do even better.
00:13:34
Speaker
Like that's actually the most honoring thing. So, yeah. Beautiful. You know, hearing that very much an integrative, holistic way of looking at your father and the amalgamation and combining and seeing the growth areas, the the mishaps, and kind of the humanness and um learning and taking that, even identifying some areas that are similar to you and your father that you're growing in still.
00:14:03
Speaker
And I really resonated with what you're sharing too of this view, similar to my dad, you know, in a way that my dad is still alive. So that's the difference. But definitely when I was younger, there was a phase when there were some definitely things that were harder disconnection.
00:14:21
Speaker
think he was burnt out for a season for sure, which then led to some during especially junior high, high school years. So it was a reverse. Almost when i was younger, I felt that really good memories. And then junior high, high school was more of a even early 20s was actually a harder time with my dad.
00:14:36
Speaker
I think that's actually more typical. Yeah. I think that's more typical because of the way that the teenage brain works, right? Like the teenage brain is rebellious. Yeah. Like at its core because it's autonomy seeking. And i love Dan Siegel talks about this in brainstorm, which is, which is ah his book on teenagers, but he talks about how like evolutionarily teenagers have to separate from their family of origin so that like the species doesn't wind up in breeding and they don't wind up like marrying their sister or something.
00:15:08
Speaker
And, and that aspect of like, I have to push away for a lot of men who, who are, i think actually less secure than my dad was. Yeah. And I, I don't mean to put that on your dad, but, but I think that one of the things with my dad was that he saw independence and pushing away and you know, self reflection and, and like these self expression as ultimately positive things.
00:15:34
Speaker
And so ah kid doing those things insofar as they were still generally in line with his values, which I kind of always stayed in line with his values, but by and large, like macro, he was able to do that. and And I wonder if that's what was going on with your dad, where it's like the teenage years come out and it's like, no, don't defy me versus like a seven year old doesn't,
00:15:58
Speaker
doesn't general i mean there's some defiance but it's not like that yeah yeah yeah yeah i think there was some you know because we've had some conversations we're actually probably the closest we've been as far as a pretty authentic relationship now and he's changed a lot too i think age and i don't think you you mentioned earlier about age i think sometimes it can help um and sometimes i think it could lead to more rigidity for people i think it My dad, I think we had a season where we weren't talking to each other.
00:16:26
Speaker
I took a step back, long story short, to various reasons. And my parents separated when I was in high school, senior year of high school. So that also was part of like the the disconnect between my dad and my our relationship. So that had a big impasse and rift.
00:16:40
Speaker
But then when we started meeting again, it's like I began to hear his story. And what I realized is during that season two of junior high school, not only was I seeking autonomy, but he was also going through his own stuff that I wasn't privy to as a kid. You know, you're not, which makes sense. He wasn't telling me everything in his head but I'm like, oh, that makes sense. As an adult, I can hold the tension of like, okay, during this difficult season you're going through, I also felt some of that in our relationship.
00:17:05
Speaker
which was hard, but now I have this awareness and empathy and curiosity as to now the why. And so enabled me to kind of heal and he took responsibility. So we did a lot of forgiveness work too. So there was a lot of stuff that happened.
00:17:17
Speaker
So just to say that the age and the context in which we grew up and I think do matter, absolutely. I think it's a big piece and to have, be able to step back and have this approach. And sometimes we're not ready to step back. You know, we're not ready as as men, as dads, like, can I hold that? And Can I view the good, the bad, the ugly and hold all attention? Sometimes it's really hard to do.
00:17:38
Speaker
Really, really difficult depending on, like you said, everyone has a different dad. And so there's differences. Yeah. that I mean, that's, that's not I think we're not, where we're planning to go with this episode, but um I guess we don't really have a plan, but, but the, the, I will say i am one who believes that age almost always softens people.
00:18:00
Speaker
Provided that the brain stays, you know, working, right? Like obviously dementia and things like that can, can lead to some, some kind of sharpening in ways that, that are not really that person. Right.
00:18:14
Speaker
But I think age, throughout history has always softened people. And you just see that wisdom coming forward and you see that patience coming forward. And there's hormonal reasons for that and lots of different things, right? Social reasons.
00:18:29
Speaker
And think for the first time in history right now, we're seeing age lead to rigidity because age is coinciding with this rise of like misinformation and cult identity and siloing and political like spiraling and social media. And so for like the first time, you know, a person who was 50, 10 years ago is more harsh, entrenched, bitter, bigoted even than they were 10 years ago.
00:18:59
Speaker
Because even though they're 10 years older, where like, I think for my dad, he went through a more natural progression. He was never on social media. He went through more natural progression of like, you know, In the early 2000s, he was like such a LeBron hater, like such a classic, you know, like he's from Chicago. He's like such a LeBron hater.
00:19:16
Speaker
And then in the year that he died, there was somebody there was a a situation where LeBron had his house, somebody like spray painted racial slurs on his house. And this like viscerally affected my dad. And he was just like, how would anyone do that?
00:19:32
Speaker
Like, that is just like, I know this guy is kind of like a whiny little cry baby on the court. Like that was, ah you know, his whole thing. He was like, but that, that is so uncalled for. And and they made him like upset.
00:19:43
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, this guy like 20 years ago just doesn't care about that. Like there's just no way. But I think empathy comes with age when you let it. And I think that the the real, so the fear for me with so many talking to so many people about their dads right now is that the dads right now are like at risk.
00:20:03
Speaker
Like they're being like co-opted. Like these six year old men are being like, like brainwashed and stuff. And, and that is like, I'm hearing about so many more like I can't go to Thanksgiving this year. i got to go no contact. And it has nothing to do with like my dad didn't do his self work.
00:20:21
Speaker
It's like, no, my dad was a great guy. Like we were the type of people who pulled over and helped people change their tire when I was like, you know, eight, nine years old. And now like, Just, you know, he's, he's taken entire swaths of the population and said like, these people are, you know, yeah terrible and and the source of all our problems. And so, and so i think that actually that like, it's great that you have a relationship with your dad, Travis. I think that there is a possibility for a lot of the listeners of like, they experienced this and there was like, oh man, I don't know. I don't know how that is. And I'm, I'm kind of glad that my dad died when he did in some ways, because I'm like,
00:20:55
Speaker
I don't know where he would have gone with a lot of what's happened, but I, I, it would not have been representative of him.
Empathy and Parenting Principles
00:21:03
Speaker
John, how do you think that may be impacting relationships between fathers and kids now?
00:21:11
Speaker
Just kind of a general sense of divisiveness and, and othering. And how do we prevent ourselves from, from going down the road of becoming even more rigid?
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah. Man, I wish I knew the, the, the answer I kind of have, I kind of have some, some general things where I think, I think we have to keep truth as truth.
00:21:35
Speaker
And, and some of that is like empathy is a positive human quality. Right? So, so like I start here and I just say, if you're becoming more, and it just depends on your religious tradition that you're from or whatever, but, but you should be striving to be more empathetic.
00:21:53
Speaker
And if you are striving to be more empathetic, I think generally good things are going to happen for you and your relationships. I don't know about you, Travis, in your practice, but certainly in counseling couples, yeah people will say, oh, communication, communication, like communication, communication is the cry of like, oh all marriages are just failing because that.
00:22:14
Speaker
No, no. marriages fail because, because both partners lack perspective taking. Yep. Right. Like they just lack the ability to see what the other person's seeing. Yeah. And they just get defensive. And when I see that and I look at like Gottman's work and stuff like that, I go, oh all of this is just empathy. Right.
00:22:32
Speaker
Like all of this is just ah an inability to empathize with someone else's perspective and opinion. So I think that's number one is just keeping empathy as kind of the the the thing of saying we need to continue to foster empathy.
00:22:48
Speaker
um The second thing is to reclaim the most positive aspects of masculinity, I think. And the most positive aspects of masculinity, and I think this is a problem for people all over the political spectrum, is like men, many men want to be protectors.
00:23:05
Speaker
Like that's like kind of hard coded for so many guys, whether that's social or genetic or biological, like, i don't know. yeah But many men want to be protectors and we need to reframe protection as like protecting your family means not imposing like radical political opinions on your like millennial children.
00:23:28
Speaker
Like protecting your family. And I see this all the time with people in this space of being like, I got to protect, I got to protect the kids of this generation by alienating my own grandkids, by alienating my own kids.
00:23:40
Speaker
And it's like, man, do like do, do your work at home first. Yeah. Like, like that, I think that that's like if you want to be a protector, I think that's great. Start with like, yeah, protecting the peace and, and, and the ability to, to critically think and for your kids.
00:23:58
Speaker
And, and I think to give a shout out to my dad, he listens to these every now and then, which is ah very thankful. But day dad, if you're listening, that big shout to you. I've told you this in person as well, but um pairing empathy. And I think you're right, John, on one hand, when I work with couples that, yeah, it's not com communicate. I mean,
00:24:15
Speaker
Sure, communication. But you're right. It's empathy. It's curiosity. It's can I actually listen to what this person is saying without me being activated and being about me in the moment, which is hard to do.
00:24:27
Speaker
i get that because we have our pains and we're like, wait a second. And so we we jump in. That's why Gottman or Sue Johnson's work is so powerful because it's really trying to slow things down to try to listen to the other.
00:24:39
Speaker
So that's a big one. But empathy and then with that where my dad does really, really well. And he's this is a big change in him is that it it's a lot of you said not pushing like in a, you know, an agenda.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I think what my dad is in so well in this phase of life, and that I have noticed a huge significant change in him is that it's a lot of listening, curiosity, not trying to fix or push anything. It's a lot of just wondering with me and and it it's just it's listening and love and it's and it's it's curious it's hey you know like if i need help he'll offer it if i ask specifically if not it's just like it's asking it's not pushing at all and i think that is such a powerful like i would say the most powerful thing you do ever as a human even as a dad is especially as kids get older because when they're little of course you're more hands-on duh but as they get older into adult relationships and i see this too with
00:25:34
Speaker
you know grown men that I work with is that, man, if a dad could just listen and hear and be present without pushing and really offering wisdom when it's asked and either that or just through modeling through behavior versus saying it,
00:25:49
Speaker
I think that's the game changer. And my dad does such a great job at that right now. I mean, that's like, yeah I've told him, I think the one thing that I've, um not the one thing, a major thing that I've seen change in him since when I was in like junior high, high school years, early 20s to like now in my 40s is, man, he listens so well.
00:26:07
Speaker
Like, and I feel that. love that. Well, I think so just to kind of piggyback off of that. So to plug the book, right? So my book is not about like parenting 20 year olds. It's about parenting toddlers and all the way up to teenagers.
00:26:22
Speaker
And the thing that like I build it off of this idea of the first chapter is kind of self-explanatory. It's called the book is called Punishment for Reparenting. The first chapter is called The Problem with Punishment, right? Like the that that's where we have to start by saying punishment's not going to work.
00:26:38
Speaker
But beyond that, the rest of the book, the next 12 chapters of the book, and I say it's 13 chapters, people are like, that's really long. The last five chapters are basically one chapter. So it's more like 10 chapters.
00:26:49
Speaker
The next you know nine like length of nine chapters has nothing to do with why punishment doesn't work. Yeah. Like ah we, we spend that week, the next nine chapters are what to do instead. And actually that was almost the title of the book was punishment, free parenting and what to do instead, like instead of punishment. And, and the four kind of keys that I build on to begin with are number one,
00:27:16
Speaker
curiosity like you said understanding that most of us approach situations with our kids immediately trying to correct instead of to understand yeah and so understanding has to come first because ultimately the underlying need like like it's like symptom management right like if you're just correcting behaviors playing whack-a-mole And I'm looking for like the underlying need so that the behavior actually stops. And and it kind of concludes that chapter concludes with the idea that ultimately the goal of discipline is not so that you're, is not obedience. Your kid's listening to you. It's self-discipline. Your kid's doing the right thing, whether or not you're there.
00:27:53
Speaker
Yeah. And so that actually begins with curiosity and and switching your mindset from, i am the king of my castle and these are my subjects and they will they will obey, to I am a mentor. I'm the smartest person in this relationship. I have you know ah decades more experience than this person.
00:28:13
Speaker
And yeah what what do we do with mentors and consultants? We go to them when we have questions and we actually often pay our consultants to tell us what to do. Yeah. Like that's a completely different mindset than most parents of being like, you have to do what I say because, because i am the adult and I'm in charge and I brought you into this world and you will respect me and you will follow what I say versus like, imagine, imagine,
00:28:39
Speaker
that That's like a boss relationship, right? Like your boss, like otherwise I'll fire you, right? Versus a consultant relationship of saying like, I want to listen to this person. Like every time I go to my dad with a problem, I come away with an actionable solution.
00:28:53
Speaker
Like that to me, you just kids don't hide things from you. They bring things to you. Like so much is better off when you start lead not with punishment, with curiosity. The second thing, the second chapter, so I start with curiosity.
00:29:07
Speaker
after the problem with punishment, the next chapter after that, chapter three, is called modeling. And it's exactly what you're talking about, which is, hey, guess what? Actually, all of our best parenting work is done not when we're even interacting with our kids. I mean, some of it, like modeling apologies and things like that, is is also when we're interacting with our kids. But often it's just living in the world yeah in the way in which we want our kids to live in the world. And so many parents operate from this mindset of, you know I want better for you than me. I think that's a beautiful thing to say.
00:29:36
Speaker
But if you actually want better for your kid, then you're going to have to do better for yourself. yeah and And you cannot, you know, it's it's monkey see, monkey do, not do as I say, not as I do. like Like that, like understand that that's always where this is going to come from. And then we move through the book and we talk about consequences and boundaries and emotional regulation and being emotionally healthy, which by the way, I think is the the most masculine thing to not let your emotions run you.
00:30:01
Speaker
Like I feel like it's, that's so, that's so beta to like, let you all of your, um but but to let all of your unresolved trauma just run your life and just like, oh, you're just like, oh, like you're just like a little snowflake. You're so out of control all the time because you haven't like processed your trauma and you don't know how to express yourself emotionally. And so you're just like a little cry baby toddler all the time. Like all these men on the internet who like are keyboard warriors. Right. I'm just like, I'm like, oh, that's so, that's so pathetic. Yeah.
00:30:27
Speaker
So like, so like there's the emotional superpowers and all that. And I moved through and how to apologize and repair and reconciliation. Cause none of us do it all the same, all right all the time. And then the last five chapters are just like step-by-step framework of exactly what to do with your, with your young kids. Like exactly. And and a lot of it is very, i use a lot of masculine metaphors because I'm a guy.
00:30:47
Speaker
And so I use all these metaphors that moms are like, come back to me and they're just like, yeah, you know, I didn't know what you were talking about with like the whole like sports and like, you know, the you know, watching film the next day.
00:31:00
Speaker
and like, you know I was never really into like, I, you know, I never played basketball or volleyball or anything. So like, I never like watched film, but like, I thought that was so cool that you use that metaphor. All the guys are like, yeah. Oh yeah. Like the quarterback's got to get in the quarterback room and watch film.
00:31:14
Speaker
and So he knows what he did wrong. So you go out back out the next week and play better the next week. And I'm like, that that's, that's just parenting. Yeah. Like just rewind the tape. How did that interaction go? What could I have done differently? What could you have done differently? And so I use a lot of these metaphors and I give you the step-by-step breakdown, but, but it begins with this concept of if we're going to be strong parents, both men and women, moms and dads, but because we're talking dads, if dads are going to be that figure for their kids, right?
00:31:42
Speaker
Number one, be a person who people want to follow, right? Be a consultant. Don't be a boss. Don't be a tyrant. Don't, don't have your kids obedience because they, because you've demanded it and because you have, you know, you'll strong arm this toddler. Like, like, so this to me, it's just, that's just so not manly.
00:32:01
Speaker
Like, oh, I'm just going to use my power to get this three-year-old to do what I want. Like outsmart them, like be a leader who they want to follow. Yeah. Yeah. To do that, you have to be curious.
Parenting Beyond Young Children
00:32:10
Speaker
And then after that is actually be the man that you want your child or you know embody the ethics, even if it's your daughter, like embody the ethics that you want your child to grow up into.
00:32:21
Speaker
I think that that's that's key. And if people don't understand that, then then they're going to wind up just playing whack-a-mole with behaviors and then hopefully trying to reconcile their relationship over some games of golf when they're 20. Right.
00:32:33
Speaker
or their kids 20. And I think that that's, i what a sad thing. Like we could do so much better and we can actually lay that groundwork of the relationship that Travis, that you have with your dad today that I had with my dad when I was in my early twenties.
00:32:46
Speaker
yeah We could have had that relationship at four and at six and at 16, but we didn't because our dads didn't know better. And you know what? The beauty is now we do.
00:32:59
Speaker
and And so we can. Yeah. And my dad says that all the time. He's like, you know, I'm way more now than I did at your age. He's like, right. He's like, you know, so much more. And, but he's so, he doesn't blame that as like, he doesn't use it as a weapon to say, well, it justifies his behavior. It's like, Hey, sure.
00:33:16
Speaker
I did the best I could. And I also, I totally jacked up a lot of times. And so that I'm learning. He's like, I'm learning now. And so I think what you said is that, All the skills that you're teaching in your book too, they apply to adult relationships. Obviously, just modify them. Because if it starts with curiosity, empathy, modeling, it's the same stuff in romantic relationships. and It's all the same. It's just you shift how you go about it.
00:33:39
Speaker
But we all need to start with curiosity. And so I think, you know, i know yeah it's geared towards young kids and teens, but the concepts actually apply to all relationships at the core. And that's the little Jedi mind trick thing is that it really does. Even all Tina Bryson's work, Dan Siegel stuff, even though doing parenting books for young kids, it's the same stuff.
00:33:58
Speaker
It's just the how you go about it. Hey, Pierre, wondering any final thoughts on this before we close out? Any final thought here? Well, I was most struck by how being a protector doesn't have to come. And frankly, doesn't come most effectively through force or pushing or hardening. Yeah. In fact, ah think there's a fear among, at least I hear a fear among men going to the opposite extreme or or softening.
00:34:34
Speaker
And so they might find themselves hardening up and, And in fact, um you've spoken to this a fair bit and speak to this in punishment-free parenting about how flexibility can be so incredibly powerful and so protective.
00:34:55
Speaker
It also models how to protect future generations or how to protect um how kids may protect themselves as they age as well. Mm-hmm. not being so hardened or closed off to different ideas, but actually engaging in a way that is fluid.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah. I, I just look at it as, as like such a, you know, I kind of mentioned this in passing, but be, be a person who your kid wants to follow.
00:35:26
Speaker
Like I, I, when you look at like the great leaders of the 20th century in the United States, both of industry and these, you know, epic CEOs and, and thought leaders and like the thing that, that, that unifies all of them is that they weren't these like ideological strongmen.
00:35:50
Speaker
They weren't like these kind of like dictator type people. They were often just the people who everybody want, like wanted to follow.
00:36:02
Speaker
And if you go back to the Stoics, and And I don't do this often, but when you go back to the Stoics, you hear that come through, like this ultimate vision of masculinity that's that's you know ancient, is is be this person who you who who does not have to insist upon their authority.
00:36:22
Speaker
like Like people, the the thing that I think parents are so worried about, men in particular, And the reason why they reject my book is before ever reading reading it is that they just go like, I'm not going to let my kids walk all over me. yeah I'm just not going to, you know, I'm not going to become like, I'm not going to be held hostage by my kids. I'm not going to like, you know, my kids are going to listen to me because I'm strong.
00:36:46
Speaker
And I'm just, what I will often reflect back to them is, You know, that does not embody strength to me. That you are, like, people who are afraid of losing authority yeah never had it.
00:37:01
Speaker
Like, people who are afraid that they're going to, like, oh, well, you know, if like if if I no longer can physically harm my children, they're not going to listen to me. And you are a terrible communicator. Like, like if the only reason anybody follows your respects you is because they're afraid of you.
00:37:17
Speaker
Like that, that to me is not a symbol of strength. That's a symbol of weakness that, that, that tells me. just right away that you do not, you lack the confidence. yeah And that's the thing. Like when I'm out in public and people are like, whoa, you really let your kids like go far from you. Like you don't have them on a tight leash. Like you're letting them, you know walk around the grocery store or like they're getting into stuff or they're, you know, you send them off to the produce section and get bananas and come back, even though it's you know, it's ah an eight year old a five year old together. And people are like, oh, they're going kidnapped or they're going to get, you know, they're going to get into trouble or this way or that. And the other, I'm like,
00:37:54
Speaker
No, I have so much confidence in the way in which I've parented them that I don't need to control them. Like, like I have so much confidence in how great of a parent I have been again, not because I'm perfect. I screw literally every day, but, but because I've done the homework and I've done the research and, and I've, and I, and I really care about this deeply, deeply. Yeah.
00:38:19
Speaker
I now have the confidence to go, oh yeah, like I actually and and the example that I use in the book of around boundaries is the bike helmet example where I say my kids always have to wear a bike helmet because I want them to be able to like crash into trees and fall off their bike.
00:38:33
Speaker
And I don't want to have any rules around how they use their bike. I want them to just like go nuts. I want, you know, my kids the other day, like they're doing some work on my house on the roof. They're ripping off old wood and throwing it down.
00:38:45
Speaker
My kids like got the old wood and they got some bricks and they like built a ramp and they're going to like, you know, on their bikes, they're going to like totally wipe out and like there's road rash. I just know that like pain is coming.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah. And, and I'm like, but I have a boundary that my kids have to wear a helmet so they don't have a traumatic brain injury. And then I let them. Yeah. Because I'm confident that no matter what happens, I can handle it.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah. And that, like, that to me is is inner strength. And I think that when when parents get to that point, they realize kids cease to be a burden. And then you can really start to run with your parenting. when When your kids cease to be a burden and they start to be a joy, you can really start to run and have a lot of fun.
00:39:28
Speaker
And I just wish that for all parents. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, so well said. One thing I will say to, going to have a conversation with God or whatever you believe in one day. i' like, why can't humans just be born with like a built, I know our skull is a helmet, but like an like an extra layer that just like sheds, like a turtle shell or something.
00:39:48
Speaker
I'm like, that would just be so much easier. like just you know Do you know the answer to that, Travis? I can answer that question for you right now. Real quick, and then we'll close out. Yeah, so the reason why, and it's and it's actually beautiful,
00:39:59
Speaker
The reason why humans have been so advanced, why why our brains are more complicated than any other species on planet Earth, why we can be born early gestationally compared to every other mammal, because our heads are so big they couldn't fit through our mother's birth canals if we were actually like full term in in the you know in terms of like a giraffe or something like their their brain is born far closer to what it will end up.
00:40:23
Speaker
than ours as if it right we're born prematurely in that way and that's why it takes us so long to do anything that's what our little blobs for a sack of potatoes until we're like 18 months old or at least nine months old and uh speaking of i have one a sack of potatoes attached to me right but the reason why we're not that we don't come with built-in helmets the reason why we're not born more ah self-sufficient the reason why we're not more protected is because we have fathers yeah The reason why we're not born more protected is because we didn't need to be.
Evolutionary Traits and Parenting Advice
00:40:51
Speaker
yeah Evolution, the way that evolution works is that you evolve to to have the thing that you need. And the fact that our children are so fragile means that we were built to do this well.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah. And so if you're like, oh man, like, well, how can kids, why why can't they just be more resilient or why can't they you know just be more whatever, like whatever? Because they didn't have to be. That's actually evidence of how gifted and and special we our we are as a species.
00:41:20
Speaker
And it's so it's actually evidence of like the reason our kids weren't built with helmets is because they were built with fathers and because they were built with mothers and because they were built with aunts and uncles and and community members in a tribe that cared about them.
00:41:32
Speaker
And so that's actually the reason to the question. We actually would have been built. We would have been born with helmets. yeah We would have evolved ah millions of years later with helmets if we had needed them. But actually, our species was able to survive without them because we're so stinking good at taking care of kids. yeah And so if nothing else, remember, you are you we are the best at taking care of our young on planet Earth by far.
00:41:59
Speaker
And the evidence for that is abounding. Not only like infant mortality and all that, but but the evidence for that is abounding because we have babies that are far more helpless than any other species on planet Earth. And the reason that we do is because we're so stinking good at this.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Boom. Way to just power house that at the end, man. I love it. And with that said, if you want to follow up with a book that is all based on this, to get John's book for free,
00:42:26
Speaker
review the podcast, send us a screenshot at info at menscollective.co and you're going to get a copy for free, which, and then you give that, and then you give that copy away to the next person and give it away and make, just circulate that thing to give you tools, understanding, awareness, because,
00:42:42
Speaker
To John's point, we are the most important thing as dads, as mothers for our children. And we're also challenged to continue learning and growing. That's the important thing too. I think that we're still challenged to learn and grow and change and go the next step farther for our kids for the next generation. So there's this continual growth and evolution. So John, blessings to you. Thank you for your time and for your gift of the book.
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah. Anything else, Pierre, you want to say to that? Thank you, John. thank you really i'll say I'll say if you enter and you don't win, you can still buy the book for yourself. Yes. And there's going link to that too if you want to buy one in the description. You'll find a link to a site that John's going to give me to buy that's that he is aligned with, not another site that but yeah a different site, you'll find it. It'll be there. Yes. I will give you, I'll make sure that you have a link. And, and the one thing I will suggest is that if you're a person who doesn't finish books, this is going to be one that you want to finish.
00:43:41
Speaker
So just get it on audio book. If you got your hands full, you can get a physical and an audio copy if you want, you know, if you want to extra support me, but you can, you can always just go hop on get the audio version and you can listen to it while you're parenting Yeah. It's a great resource to listen to while your kids are screaming in the background because it reminds you to be chill and that you're doing a great job and how to screw up when you don't or how to fix it when you don't, when you screw up. And so, yeah. I also like the one, I do like how to screw up when you don't screw up. I think that's a good, should add that. How to screw up better. Yeah, I like that one. How to screw better. How to make the, how to fall up.
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah. I, well, I do talk about that. You know, I do talk about that in the book. Like the, honestly, the screw, the screw ups are some of the times when we actually parent the best. Our mistakes are actually our successes. So. And we need those. We need those screw ups is actually, and that's a strength, right? Yep. So dude, have a great day.