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Episode 3 - Artist vs. Craftsperson
1.9k Plays9 months ago
Are you an Artist? Are you a Craftsperson? Does it matter? Why do we use these labels and what are the differences between art and craft? What exactly is art? What is Craft? Are these labels helpful or just bullshit? Join our discussion on this divisive topic.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Woodworking is Bullshit' Podcast
00:00:17
Speaker
Well, look who's back, your favorite group of troublemakers, asking us all the difficult questions about creativity, art, and design. And hopefully, we heard some feelings along the way. This is the Woodworking is Bullshit Podcast.
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm your host Paul Jasper of Copperpig Woodworking and I'm joined by your favorite co-host thirst traps Mary Tsai, professional AI designer by day and Kodamari furniture by night and Eric Curtis, professional furniture maker, very official.
00:00:49
Speaker
As usual, we like to start every show with a question.
Craft vs. Art Debate: Definitions and Overlaps
00:00:54
Speaker
So, Eric, I think you have another hot button topic for us today. I do. The question right off the top of my head, is it pronounced Kota Mari? I was assuming it was Kota Marie the whole damn time. It can be whenever you want, but it is Kota Mari. Oh, look at that. Okay. All right. Now for the real question.
00:01:15
Speaker
This is a question I think about often, and I debate with myself often. And I'm curious to hear your opinions on it. And I'll phrase it in two different ways, because I think there's a lot to parse out here. But at its core, the question is, where do we draw the line between craft and art? Or to phrase it a different way, can we differentiate between craft and art?
00:01:44
Speaker
So I used to be of the opinion that art was about the intention, right? That the artist's aim in getting you to engage with an object, to feel a thing, to experience a thing, was a vital component in what makes a piece of art art, right? It's
00:02:07
Speaker
It's what makes a thing transcendent, that universal experience of just it could be something as simple as this is the most beautiful damn thing I've ever seen in my life. And we all connect to it in a way that makes us experience that object differently from just a really well crafted object. So the craft, on the other hand, is almost the engineering, the making of the thing.
00:02:35
Speaker
So you have the art is the why and the craft is the how, if you will. But I think what that does is it puts art on an elevated level. It puts it above craft in a big way. And I don't think that that is. It's I don't think it's a fair pedestal to put craft on, because over time I've come to the conclusion that they may be inextricably linked.
00:03:07
Speaker
So in order for a piece of art to be art with a capital A, it has to have a high level of craftsmanship. And the act of creating, the act of craftsmanship may be art in and of itself. The act of creating may be the definition of art.
00:03:36
Speaker
So I'm wondering if we can parse the two apart and say this is art and this is craft. Or is it impossible to separate the two? And do they just live on a spectrum somewhere, maybe? Because you can't have one without the other. Perhaps. This is what I contend with often.
00:04:02
Speaker
Can you make a piece of art, like a true, beautiful, transcendent piece of art that is not the result of years of training in the craft, whatever that craft may be, painting, sculpture, woodworking, music, right? The performance of art is also another element of craft, right? The act of creation. So I'll ask again,
00:04:32
Speaker
because we love labels.
Intention vs. Perception in Art
00:04:34
Speaker
Where do we draw the line between art and craft?
00:04:40
Speaker
So can I start with the def, can I start with the definition of each? Like let's look at the definition. Are we going to go, we're going to go Miriam Webster's on this batch already. I yeah, let's, let's, let's do the Oxford dictionary and let's just start with what, how they define art craft. Okay. And, and Eric, I think we'll, you raised wonderful points and we'll get to a lot of those. So, uh, let's start with craft and activity involving skill in making things by hand.
00:05:12
Speaker
an activity involving skill in making things by hand. I wonder if that definition isn't shifting with the invention of CNCs in CAD and all of the other non-human components of it. Let's put a pin in that. Let's stick a pin in that because that's a good, that's another good point. And let's go to the definition of art. Because it's just going to be a picture of me.
00:05:40
Speaker
No, that's if I Google designer. If I had said that the amount of hate that I would have gotten. Wow. I thought you were the picture under designer, Mary, not artist. If you if you look up the antonym to humility, though, also another photo of an antonym. I don't think I've used the word antonym in the last 20 years.
00:06:08
Speaker
I don't think I have either. As soon as I said it, I was like, is that the word I'm looking for? All right. Definition of art. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in visual form, such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power. So the first definition of craft had the words,
00:06:36
Speaker
involving skill in making things by hand, right? Making, and the art had expression, human creative skill, imagination, visual, works appreciated for their beauty and emotional power. So I can see the distinction. One is about the how, Eric, as you said earlier. And the other is about what, like, art is like a, it seems to be a bigger term involving emotion and expression.
00:07:03
Speaker
is how I read these definitions. Frankly, I disagreed with that definition until the very end when they brought it back around with the emotional experience, right? The thing I would push back with and tell me if you're reading this differently is that definition felt to me as though they were they were placing the definition of art from the perspective of the viewer, right? The person interacting with the artwork, not from the perspective of the artist.
00:07:30
Speaker
And I think the intention of the artist in the act of creation is hugely important to how we define art. And I think that bears witness in contemporary art, right? We're gonna have this argument at some point during this conversation about like, is a cube in the middle of a room letting a cube of chocolate, for example. I can't remember the artist's name off the top of my head, but a cube of chocolate just melting in the middle of a museum room is that art.
00:07:59
Speaker
A banana stuck to a wall of duct tape. Right, right. But that does speak to the intention of the artist.
Performance Art and Traditional Definitions
00:08:07
Speaker
The artist in the infamous banana duct tape scandal, the intention of the artist was to show how absurd the process of that art show was and of art collection in general. So you stick a banana on the wall and you charge whatever, you charge $50,000 for it or something, and somebody buys it.
00:08:28
Speaker
And yet simultaneously, it's performance art. It's an object and it's the performance, the act of doing the thing simultaneously. So it's this weird...
00:08:38
Speaker
art for art's sake. So let me put let me put a finger on this and Eric and get you to commit to your definitions because you've been waffling a little bit. This is why it's hard. Do you agree with the definitions is from Oxford that once primarily about making and handcraft and skill and the others about more of an expression? I mean, is do you fall down those lines, roughly speaking?
00:09:05
Speaker
very roughly I would I would hesitate to agree but I think on principle I would have to agree I would use the word intention more than expression okay so there's an intention in art and not necessary there doesn't have to be an intention in craft I think there is an intention in the experience of the end user or viewer in art right what am I trying to get you to experience where that doesn't exist in craft
00:09:36
Speaker
Well, but this is, this is why it's messy because I think the goal of a craftsman, again, these are broad strokes, but I think the goal of a craftsman, generally speaking, is to create a beautiful object or crafts woman as the case may be, Mary, what do you think? Crafts person or crafts person. Yeah. Let's not, let's not be, let's be more gender inclusive. Yeah. I mean, if you're talking about like intention and
00:10:03
Speaker
I guess, what, like concept? I guess like art is more driven by conceptual ideas and maybe deeper meaning, maybe not, but more often so. I feel like they're, yeah, I mean the art is supposed to be like evoking emotions and maybe conveying message or exploring some sort of, I don't know, maybe some sort of theme or something, but crafts.
00:10:26
Speaker
generally places but more emphasis on I think skillful execution and maybe even on the aesthetics of the object as opposed to the yeah like maybe more of the visual aesthetics versus just versus like the meaning behind it but I don't know well I wanted to ask was like do you if you had to call yourself one or the other which would you say
00:10:54
Speaker
All right, I think it was an evolution. I started as a crafts person, I think, and I evolved. And I don't, you know, I use the words evolved. That automatically is sort of derogatory. It's like, I rose above the craft, you know, and I don't mean it that way, but I did evolve into a, I guess I see myself more as an artist now. I don't think I'm doing very well at it. I think I'm,
00:11:20
Speaker
in my like I'm a beginner artist like I have just started to be able to try and evoke meaning and thought and emotion from people through my pieces but I don't think I do it very well I think I'm quite like I'm in like preschool you know whereas I see some artists I would argue that you're definitely above a lot of
00:11:43
Speaker
I just feel like, no, really, you could take all the shots you want because it's fun. I see art sometimes and it hits me like a ton of bricks. I don't know that I've been able to hit anyone with even one brick yet. So it's something I think about a lot, but it's very hard to do, which is how do you elicit emotion or how do you control the experience of the viewer or the owner with the piece?
Mary's Transition from Craft to Art
00:12:13
Speaker
How about you? What do you think? Well, I'm going to disagree with you right off the jump that you haven't been able to evoke that emotional experience with you. But this is an interesting differentiation again, because I've seen your clients have deeply emotional reactions. That's true. That's the pieces that you've made. Now the question is, the question is,
00:12:36
Speaker
Is that a result of your high level of craft because they were already imbuing this object with some emotional, some substantial meaning, right? Because of the financial investment because of, whatever the thing is, right? So that may be a workaround a little bit. Can you get that reaction out of a stranger, right? Who's never interacted with that object before, walks into a room, sees it and has that reaction.
00:13:05
Speaker
That's yeah, great, great point. But as far as how I define myself, it's a tricky one, right? Because I I got into woodworking. Because I thought of it as a craft, because I thought that's a thing. Woodworking is a difficult example because out of a lot of art forms, woodworking is literally crafting like physical material.
00:13:34
Speaker
and being a craftsperson first. Well, it is, it is, but haven't like, let's take Nakashima as an example, right? You have a person who is a craftsman through and through, but you can, I've seen people walk up to an object that he's made that is just a simple form, well executed and have these deeply emotional reactions because the beauty of the form itself or of the material itself is overwhelming.
00:14:01
Speaker
And so it treads this line. And I got into woodworking because I grew up in the trades. I grew up building decks and houses. And there was a bit of that machismo, like I need to be a man and build things with my hands and I don't have emotions and I can't express things. And over
Networking, Elitism, and Recognition in Art
00:14:22
Speaker
time I realized, oh shit, I actually am trying to do exactly that. And woodworking was a vehicle that allowed me to do that while
00:14:30
Speaker
tread that line somehow, right? But what's happened now is, as I've attempted to break into the art world with air quotes, to some extent, I've realized that so much of that world like any, you know,
00:14:49
Speaker
a society any any group of people. It's about who you know more than what you know. Right. And so in trying to break into that world, I found myself rejected over and over and seeing works from other people. This just happened and I won't name names and I won't name places. I applied to get into an art show.
00:15:09
Speaker
and didn't get in with two pieces that I think that I know were very strong pieces. And the person who not only got in but one first place, I looked at that work and I was like, that's horseshit. Like it is not well crafted. It is not interesting. It is not good. What you did was you told a good story, which is absolutely a part of it. And for whatever reason, you know,
00:15:34
Speaker
the gods shined upon you and you were able to be featured in this show. And I realize now that my place is very much as a craftsman in the world. And so like the 14 year old boy inside of me is pushing back against the out world and be like, fuck you guys. I'm a woodworker. I'm not an artist. So it was an art show. It was an art show. Yeah.
00:15:58
Speaker
So Eric, there's a study that was released by an information scientist. I'll have to look up the name. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but he did a study of, I think it was,
00:16:12
Speaker
50,000 to 100,000 artists and their careers. And he tried to ask the question, what determines whether an artist will be big in the art world? I mean, being able to be shown in high-end galleries and will make good money or not.
00:16:29
Speaker
Is it the art itself or is it who you know and what his lab and he's he's got a lab at a prestigious university. I'll find the info. I can't but I remember the conclusion. The conclusion was where you trained put you in touch with a group of galleries and a group of people and that was basically
00:16:56
Speaker
the main determinant of whether you showed in high scale successful galleries or not. It was where you trained and who you knew. And if you trained at the prestigious place like MoMA, or your university was in bed with MoMA or whatever, your probability of staying in those circles was like 50 to 80%. If you came from nowhere,
00:17:20
Speaker
And you're not in those high-end circles. What's your probability of breaking into those circles, which is sort of the case you're talking about. It's like I'm a self-taught craftsperson. I didn't go to any prestigious art school that put me in touch with all these people. The probability, out of all the people in that group, only a few percent, like single-digit percent, were able to move into that group somehow. And it was probably through a relationship. I doubt it was their work.
00:17:49
Speaker
So yeah, the bottom line of all that research was it's who you know, and where you stay. It wasn't art at all, which is kind of well, that's kind of like that beats you up a little bit inside. Because I think the boy in you says, if I make good enough stuff, people are gonna love you. It's the American optimism in me for sure. For sure. But I think that also continues to then blur the line between art and craft because you have artists who are not
00:18:18
Speaker
exceptional craftsmen in their field of study. No, they just knew the right people. They just knew the right people. And then you have craftsmen who are, you know, even throwing air quotes around that or like we've already done multiple times in this conversation, we've put the craft below the art. Then you have these people who make truly magnificent objects that you can argue are works of art in and of themselves.
00:18:47
Speaker
who just don't get shown, don't get labeled as artists because, well, they're just making tables. Well, let's be clear with each other. Who you know seems to be the bottom line in almost everything.
00:19:02
Speaker
Sure. That's how the world works. That's why I went to school. The advice I got at the beginning of my woodworking career, I talked to the guy who runs the Philadelphia Woodworking Show at the time. It was 2008 or 2009, and I was trying to figure out after college, how could I be a woodworker? And he said, go to school, not because you can't learn the craft, but because of the people you'll meet. And that will be the thing that drives your career. And he was a hundred percent right.
00:19:25
Speaker
the same as with my career. I went to certain schools and that gave me the job I have today because I was in the right place. I mean, you have to like doing well at art or doing well at your job is like, that's the price of admission. But beyond that, you need that network of humans that's going to help you get, you know, to where you really want to be. Mary, you've been awfully quiet. What do you think? About which part? Anything, any part, please. How do you define yourself?
00:20:01
Speaker
I mean, you both know I define myself as a designer, but that's not the question here. I think that it depends on what my project is. So last time we talked, I don't know, I've had this conversation with many people, but like, when I'm trying to come up with a project,
00:20:24
Speaker
You know when you get to that point in your design where you're like, it's almost there, but it's probably good enough. That for me is when I stop and I'm fine. It's like, this is like a craft person and it's like good enough for like my standard. So I'm just going to make sure I execute this well. But if I really want to do something that's a piece of art, I'm willing to spend that time to push it to when I'm like really happy that it conveys my message or my inspiration or et cetera.
00:20:51
Speaker
willing to put in that time, even if it takes like a week or two more to really figure it out.
Design: Art Form or Problem-Solving?
00:20:58
Speaker
Then I think in my mind, it becomes more of the art side. In general, like I am not really that high of like a technical woodworker. I have like, like fair skills and I can, I don't know,
00:21:15
Speaker
I can build whatever I want to build usually, but I don't spend the time to really hone my technical skills. I want to make sure that I produce the product. I want to make sure it's done really well, obviously. But for me, it's more about that final execution and that final piece rather than making sure that everything is technically perfect and proficient. So we talked about craft versus art. Where does designer fit in?
00:21:44
Speaker
I don't know to be honest. Is that like a third category? I think it might be. I think it might be a contemporary category. Right. So I mean, I think we did we talk about this last one, but like design usually has some sort of problem editing solved. And it's usually something. Yeah, I guess it's maybe for the purpose of solving an issue and
00:22:14
Speaker
That is not the case in art. Maybe it isn't craft, which is why in my job, a lot of people say you have to have really high craftsmanship in, for example, a product design or UX design or digital design, because that is one of the criteria of judging whether or not it's good UX. I don't know. Craft is such a subjective, vague, general term that I feel like you can apply it to any field, though.
00:22:43
Speaker
What does UX stand for, for the Luddites among us? User experience, that's my job. I make sure that users have good experience. See, it's interesting to me because I've never, never in my life have I associated the word craftsmanship with digital design.
00:23:03
Speaker
Right. And that, that doesn't, that doesn't mean I'm trying to, to say that it's not, it doesn't take a high level of craftsmanship. It's just interesting to hear you guys have that conversation using that language. So the goal of a good UX designer is to make sure that the user doesn't notice anything. So bad UX is when you're super frustrated with something.
00:23:23
Speaker
And you're like, why can't I just figure this form out? Or why can't I figure out the software, et cetera? It's bad UX. Good UX is something that is so intuitive and so well-designed that the designer anticipates these needs. And they don't even need to think about whether or not, oh, this is a great sort of program I'm using. See, this is interesting. So from that question of where does designer fall on this spectrum,
00:23:52
Speaker
I could make the argument that that in itself is kind of like that's one branch of art, right? Like this idea of trying to intuitively get somebody to do a thing or experience a thing without them even noticing.
00:24:08
Speaker
that that is part of that user experience that the definition back to Oxford or whatever we pulled. Like that's what they're talking about is that thing of you are having this experience and you don't even know that that's what the artist intended you to do. Hmm. That's a very interesting way to put it Eric.
00:24:28
Speaker
So I am an artist. Yeah. You've kind of convinced me that like designer like is under the umbrella of artists because it has intentions and it has a goal and it's about driving someone's experience. That's very it's a very thoughtful point. I like that. But but it also kind of
00:24:49
Speaker
It is the engineer, right? Like designers are kind of the engineers as well. They are the problem solvers before you act. So I think the act of creation as an artist is sloppy and messy. And oftentimes you don't know where you're going until you're going there. And I think design is very much the opposite of that, right? It is the, I'm going to do all of the planning and math and mapping before I ever pick up any material whatsoever.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah, I don't I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong, Paul, but I do think there there is a fundamental tension there. Interesting. All right. I want to tell you guys a story that Trent Presler told me once.
Elitism in Art and Craft: Case Studies
00:25:32
Speaker
I think you'll like this. I love Trent. You know, you know, Trent, we all love Trent. He's wonderful. And he's definitely going to be on this podcast at some point. I haven't asked him yet, but, um, as you know, Trent, he both, uh, is the C he, he was, or I think he still is the CEO of Bedell sellers, which is a vineyard on a long Island.
00:25:55
Speaker
And as a result of running a vineyard, they get pretty high profile guests to their vineyard for events. And he told me a story where the director of MoMA was there. And as you also may know, Trent makes very expensive canoes. Canoes that
00:26:18
Speaker
upset a lot of people at the price point of $100,000 for a canoe. The craftspeople get so upset, like, what about this canoe? He hasn't made more than a few canoes in his life. How dare he ask that kind of price? And Trent put so much
00:26:42
Speaker
He made canoes that never, the world had never seen before with exotic woods and hand engraved, like port, you know, caps and the most, you know, hand forged, you know, bronze, you know, cut waters. And I mean, the nicest hand leather. I mean, really like everything you could do about this canoe was of the finest quality. And the world had never seen so many beautiful pieces of
00:27:09
Speaker
craft or whatever you want to call it, put in one canoe. I mean, it really was transcending the word canoe. I mean, it's still functionally canoe, but it had, it was more like a piece of art, right? So as I recall the story, and Trent, forgive me if I'm telling it wrong, but you were talking with the director of MoMA at the time about it, well, is your canoe art or is it craft? His canoe is used.
00:27:36
Speaker
They're used, yeah. The owners use them occasionally. Otherwise, they're up on a 50-foot ceiling in their mansion. But is that canoe art? And the director of MoMA was like, no, no, no, no, no. Your canoe is definitely not art. It is craft. And he goes, your canoe would be art. This would be art, is if you sailed that canoe into the middle of the lake,
00:28:03
Speaker
and poured gasoline all over it and blew it up in a ball of fire and it sank. That is art. So must be nice to love the smell of your own farts.
00:28:21
Speaker
Like that's art destroying the canoe. Like that would be a work of art. It basically is basically the act of destroying. It's performance art. Yeah, I guess it's performance art. So I mean, again, forgive me if I have any details wrong, but that was his definition of art would be say like destroying it, for example, not that you have to destroy it. You could do other things with it, I suppose. But what did you guys think of that?
00:28:53
Speaker
I mean, this is why the subjects are always so subjective. It's always just personal preference. But I don't know. It seems like that guy's definition of art has to do with performance and having to tell a narrative and a story and a transformation, maybe like a big part of the art world right now. But he also, I don't know anything about him. Is this Glenn?
00:29:36
Speaker
might be, you know, like, I don't know, that's, that's the point I was gonna raise it. It sounds to me, it reeks to me of elitism, right, that the separation of material is really important in the art world, you made a thing out of wood. And unless you destroy it, it can't be art. Right. So it's,
00:29:41
Speaker
I'm not sure who it was at the time. That's why I don't give a name.
00:30:01
Speaker
It's frustrating to me because I don't think he's wrong. I don't think like you could absolutely make the case that making a point like Trent, knowing his backstory, knowing his relationship with his father, why he started building canoes.
00:30:15
Speaker
to then take that out into the water and destroy that as an act of catharsis and try to articulate that to viewers, to people. I think that that absolutely is art, but to say that the boat itself is not art because it's not doing that just because it's a beautiful object.
00:30:35
Speaker
is somehow lacking. I think that reeks to me of elitism and it's wildly frustrating. And maybe they're pushing maybe they're so used to just seeing beautiful objects. They're like, that's not enough anymore to move the needle. Now you have to do something radical to really make us gasp. You know, but maybe so but now you're getting into the conversation of are you making art or are you doing the thing to be accepted into the art community? Right? And those are two different things.
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, he's also the director of contemporary art. So his is most likely biased towards what is contemporary art, and we're just I don't know, maybe it's more performative, rather than traditional. I don't know, old school. Yeah, there's a contemporary artist who got shot and on camera just to do to shoot himself, you know, oh, yeah. I forget his name. One, one, one piece that always sticks out to me that really
00:31:32
Speaker
It both frustrates me and fascinates me simultaneously. Do you guys know the artist, Damien Hirst? Yes. Yeah. Do you? Shark in the tank. So and so here's the question. Right. Here's the thing about the shark in the tank. For those of you who are unfamiliar, this is a shark that has been it's dead. It's been what's the word I'm looking for? Preserved. Preserved. Yes. And it's suspended in this tank.
00:32:00
Speaker
And that in and of itself is nothing special. I think the interesting thing about this piece, I think the artwork is naming the piece. The name of the piece is the physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living.
00:32:15
Speaker
And the object itself means nothing until you sit with the statement made about the object in naming it the physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living. And then once you sit there and you contend with the reality of what that brings to you as a living person and the object in front of you simultaneously, that experience, that exchange
00:32:40
Speaker
become something transformative. And so, again, I can see what this director is trying to say about you are trying to do something that's never been done before. But just because you did something new doesn't mean that what you already did wasn't art. Also, I'm sure it's been done many times, something being destroyed. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
00:33:11
Speaker
So again, I can't think of this person's name, but there is a craftsman who made this big, beautiful china cabin. I think it was in the 80s. I think I know what you're going to say.
00:33:23
Speaker
Uh-huh. It was, it was technically perfect. It was beautiful. And then he took a giant iron spike and he drove it right through one of the doors and just cranked it and destroyed the cabinet and left it and just left it there. Oh, the artist I saw drove a huge nail into the middle of the cabinet and left it there. And so that's part of the piece now. Yeah, that's part of the thing. And so you have this object that went from craft to art because of the statement that he made by quasi destroying it.
00:33:54
Speaker
You know, so this is like, I can't remember the name of it. I'm sure you could Google it with some success, but it just, the line gets blurred and the, it's a, it's a real snitches moment. You know what I mean? The haves and the have Gary Knox Bennett.
00:34:14
Speaker
That's who it was. Gary Knox Bennett. Yeah, that's his name. Big giant cabinet. It's an interesting, and I don't know his intention in what statement he was trying to make, whether he was trying to, whether he was an artist trying to make a statement about woodworking or the other way around. But it's interesting to contend with contemporary art saying that what you do is not art because it's not good enough for us.
00:34:42
Speaker
And I don't know that I can accept that answer. Someone's salty, Mary. Did you taste that? I don't know. Someone's a little salty towards contemporary artists. No, a little briny. A little briny today, Mary. A little beer.
00:35:00
Speaker
All right.
Emotional Impact and Art's Definition
00:35:01
Speaker
Now I'll ask the two of you and I'll answer myself, is there a particular piece you've made that has pushed the most towards art and like moving the emotional needle or like, absolutely, like pushing that the limit pushing the envelope? What is it? I think there are
00:35:23
Speaker
There are different iterations of that process over my career. So very briefly, there are three pieces that come to mind. But the first time I think I accidentally made what I would consider to be art
00:35:39
Speaker
is a table that I don't remember if I've talked about it on the podcast yet. But table I call it the Atlas table. Based on the the sculpture of Atlas in New York. It was a difficult time in my life.
00:35:56
Speaker
And I identified with this statue holding the weight of the world. And I was tasked with making a table. And then this thing came out. I just didn't think about trying to make art. It was just the thing that was happening in me at the time. And somebody pointed it out to me that, well, what you just did was made art. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm a craftsman. I made a table.
00:36:20
Speaker
Uh, and he said, no, you're clearly like a artist, Prius driving artist, Prius, no, the Prius or any artistry.
00:36:32
Speaker
immediate disqualification. But but it was this this moment of of recognizing what I was attempting to do without realizing it was express my experience as a human in the world through this object. Right. And like what, what else is art except you trying to articulate your human experience to other folks? Yeah. And
00:36:59
Speaker
similar, I actually, I talked about this, I think last time, but yeah, I think the piece for me was my Franklin Wright inspired one, because I saw his interpretation of the Tree of Life and his stained glass windows. And I was like, I want my interpretation of your interpretation of someone else's interpretation. So for me, it was my Tree of Life tables, because those were, and yeah, yeah, those were coincidentally the first pieces that I was really happy with, because I think it conveyed the message that I was trying to
00:37:29
Speaker
get across with like this is a somewhat original design, but not, I mean, it's clearly inspired by something and I see it more in the art world rather than function, although it is a functional craft piece.
00:37:47
Speaker
So for me, and I've upset a few people with it, are the coffin jewelry boxes I made. Images of death seem to really get people stirred up. And I got some nasty messages. So I made these big jewelry boxes in the shape of a Victorian coffin. And you take the lid off the coffin, and it looks like vertebra. It's like all these compartments for rings and earrings, and it looks like your rib cage or your vertebra.
00:38:16
Speaker
And then you lift that up and inside, there's more compartments for storage of larger jewelry. And these these, these coffins really upset people. I got no, why would you make? Why would you spend all that time making such a beautiful box and put it in the shape of something that represents death? You know, I guess email in their former, like, no, no, no, I can relate to this.
00:38:41
Speaker
So but despite the emo crowd not showing up on my page
00:38:49
Speaker
A lot of people loved them and they sold very fast. And furthermore, the new, the newest cabinet I'm working on has a gigantic skull on the front of the cabinet. And again, I think that's upsetting people. And a lot of people were like, you ruined the cabinet. But maybe that, I think those are probably art. I mean, they're getting people to think about their own mortality. They're confronting morbid image, so-called morbid images of death. I don't know if they're really morbid or not.
00:39:19
Speaker
I think about death all the time. I mean, I'm not particularly a morbid person. I'm a pretty positive guy, but I just find these interesting. I think coffins are interesting vessels. I think images of skulls are very cool. And they seem to disturb people. So maybe it is art. I think that could be an interesting place to differentiate. And this may be very individual in the experience of the end user.
00:39:49
Speaker
But art may require the viewer to engage with something beyond the object through their interaction with the object. It may require that they look at your coffin box and start considering death.
00:40:09
Speaker
And it may it may be that they look at a simple table that was made by an unnamed craftsman 100 years ago and they're so moved by its beauty that they contend with the nature of beauty and goodness and and
00:40:25
Speaker
contributing something beautiful to the world in society in their own time that they have on earth, right? So it may not be just in the intention of the maker. But I do think it requires some and this is why I use the word transcendence before like it may require some transcendence on the end users part. Yeah, but also people in general are like really into skulls and like weird
00:40:53
Speaker
Like, there's the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia, where it's actually a pretty controversial museum. And people will go and just look at these fetuses and skulls and everything. And some people really like decorating their house like that. I don't know. I think it's more so. And people really like boats that are on fire as works of contemporary art. So it's. Yeah. I don't know. I think that we almost like the weird shit. And they don't know why. Well, that's fine.
00:41:21
Speaker
All right, so I have another question about craft versus art. Let's poke the bear even more. You ready? Two words. Price point.
00:41:31
Speaker
I'm going to say I'll be the unpopular opinion, or maybe not unpopular. They have different price points. I'm sorry, but they do. They do. Because it's so standardized and it's part of a tradition, it has so many examples to compare an object to, like Windsor chairs. They have tens of thousands of examples and price points to compare.
00:42:01
Speaker
cutting board. It was the original Windsor chair. craft or art is art is craft art. It started as craft of the original the original has to be original was craft. No, the original was art. It was it was made specifically for function. I disagree. Oh, that that may be but that form had never been seen before and it was like probably groundbreaking.
00:42:23
Speaker
is that the definition something that's never been seen before? Well, usually the first of something tends to be so like jarring the first time you've ever seen a form. It's like so jarring that you're like holy shit. I think I think what you're saying there is true. But I think the Windsor chair that form didn't
00:42:42
Speaker
Well, it probably did right out of nowhere. It evolved from the thing before. That's also maybe why people like your skull boxes. It's very jarring to them and they haven't seen anything like it before. Yeah. I mean, that may be true. Okay. So back to price point. So I definitely think Kraft has an established price point and you can't, you can go within like a multiple of like two times or three times the average Kraft price point for that item. But people are going to comparison shop and be like, why are you asking twice what I can get a very similar item for?
00:43:12
Speaker
Art has no price point. There are no comparisons to it to be drawn. This brings us to the question of production versus handmade, right?
Price Points: Art vs. Craft
00:43:25
Speaker
So if you, Paul, make a box by hand, that's one of a kind, and you've done this many times, you can charge far more for that object because it's the only object like that that will ever exist. Even if you reproduce it by hand, it will be different.
00:43:42
Speaker
versus an object that you batch produce. Or if you're an artist, the first time you paint a painting, it's going to be worth more than the prints that subsequently come after it. That's the nature of production, right? You're devaluing an object because there is more of it. So scarcity. I mean, that's just that's economics 101, right? Scarcity is is part of what drives. But what about what about craft versus art and price point?
00:44:09
Speaker
Well, so if you're producing a table, if you're, even if you're not at like a production, quote unquote, woodworker, if you are producing forms that have existed before, if you're making handmade barn tables, it's still a barn table.
00:44:28
Speaker
versus if you attempt to make a form that has never been made before or to your knowledge in your lifetime has never been made before. That's an entirely different thing so naturally you can charge more for it because it's one of a kind. So was the farmhouse table craft and the never seen before table art?
00:44:50
Speaker
I don't, you know, I don't know. It's hard to differentiate. It is hard to differentiate. I would say, I would say if I'm going to lay my bets and I'm not going to hold hard to this definition, but if I am going to lay it down, I would say that the moment something is produced more than once, it ceases to be art. I know that's a shitty definition. No way.
00:45:17
Speaker
Okay. So argue that. Are you against it? You made two of it and it's not art anymore? Come on. Well, now it's a production piece. Yeah, but it could still be art.
00:45:33
Speaker
I don't think that's it. I think the craft is often part of a tradition where there's many tens of thousands of examples that are all very, very similar. And art is something that just takes a fucking massive U-turn to go off to its own meaning, its own space. It lives in its own realm to some extent. I know it has- Does Andy Warhol live in his own realm?
00:45:53
Speaker
No, no, no, but I mean, in some ways, yes, but no, no, not exclusively. But art seems to just have some sort of deviation. And one doesn't have a price point. And one does. Typically, I'm sorry, that's what the experience I can, you know, art, I have a price point, though, you can ask anything you want, because only one of them exists on the world. And it came out of you and your creative expression. And if you want that specific, whatever, I said,
00:46:22
Speaker
specific artists can ask whatever price they want. Oh, sure. But Warhol asked for his prices because he was Andy fucking Warhol. There's been 104 and 106. Eric, Eric, you've asked some pretty good prices on some of your pieces because they only exist through you.
00:46:39
Speaker
Now, we're not in the Andy Warhol or whatever. Yeah, I'm not making $50,000 a piece. No, but you've been able to demand more for some of your pieces because they're so uniquely you. And you've transitioned. They are that. And listen, I'm not naive to the fact that because there are more eyeballs on me, I've been able to ask more and produce more individualistic objects.
00:47:08
Speaker
rather than go down the route of making batch products in objects that are more available to folks. I'm not naive to that. But I don't know. I don't know where you draw the line on that. I said it was a real shitty definition. I don't know where you draw the line because an artist can make a limited run. You know, you can make five in an object, 10 of an object, and those are the only 10 that exist. Well, you think the pieces for your name or because they want the
00:47:38
Speaker
Because that's also a thing. People definitely buy artists work, even though they don't really feel an emotional connection to it, but they want the name. So they feel an emotional connection to the person. Somehow. I was going to say that. Folks, people don't buy art, they buy the artist. You've told me many times.
00:47:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you look so good. I'm honest. If I'm honest, like, I think I'm good at my craft. I don't think I'm exceptional at my craft. I think what I am really good at is telling a story. And I think folks want to invest in a person attempting their best and I do my best with every client I have.
00:48:25
Speaker
doing their best to engage with a space, with an object, with a story, and trying to create something new for that space, for that family, for that moment in their life. I think that's why people pay me, not because I can cut dovetails. No, that's true. All right. Shall we move to what we like to call our lightning round? So this is the first time we're doing the lightning round.
00:48:53
Speaker
What's up? Our long running segment, our lightning round. So this is our, this is going to be a lightning round. And we've never done this before. And Mary is absolutely terrified because I didn't tell her what I'm going to ask her. And I'm going to ask her to react to the question and answer it in short order. No long drawn out boring ass answers. I want quick gut instinct. You're going to have like five seconds to answer. All right.
00:49:22
Speaker
And it's a series of questions that bears on today's topic. I can blame hesitation on the port internet. Are you ready for the lighting round, Mary? No, you're not. Okay. Ready? Uh, I'm going to ask you first and then Eric on the first question. You're ready. Here we go. Number one.
00:49:46
Speaker
You make a mission piece of furniture, but base it on your own design so it's not like any other piece that's been built before in that particular vein of mission style furniture. Is it art or craft? Mary? What is mission style? Stickly, or let's say green and green, or whatever style you want to pick.
00:50:09
Speaker
You make a piece in that style, but it's not based on any one piece that exists. It's new. Is it articraft? Eric? I would say art might be boring art, but it's art. Interesting. So I guess I would say I'm sort of like 50-50. I know that's kind of a cop out, but it definitely is in line with the tradition, but it's a new piece. So I don't know. I'd give it both.
00:50:35
Speaker
Um, second, Eric, you first, oh, this one's going to upset people is art above craft because it is inherently more difficult to move the emotional needle.
Craftspeople's Journey Towards Art
00:50:46
Speaker
No, I think it's impossible to separate the two. I think you can't be an artist without having exceptional craftsmanship and the director of MoMA can, you know, get fucked.
00:50:57
Speaker
I was the current director. I don't know which director it was. Mary is art above craft. Okay. Uh, follow-up question. Eric is art more difficult than craft. I think it takes more time. I don't know that it's more difficult. Mary.
00:51:22
Speaker
I tend to think it is more difficult because it demands so much more of me than just execution. It's execution plus like much more. Okay. Next question. Mary, you first. Are artists cockier than craftspeople? Uh, yes, I am biased because I come from a world full of design and artists and I see a lot of ego. So maybe I'm biased because I'm not as much in the craftsperson world, but okay. Eric, are artists cockier?
00:51:53
Speaker
I would say the stereotype of the artist is cockier. But if we're expanding the definition of craft to anybody who is really good at what they are building, I grew up in the trades. I can't say that artists are cockier than craftspeople, man. We're all human, and we all suck the same amount. You define yourself as Eric, that's the cockiest. Oh, slave. OK, all right. Listen, you love me. You're not wrong.
00:52:25
Speaker
Okay, I think frequently artists are cockier than craftspeople because they think they're all fancy. Typically, but let's hope they check their ego at the door. Finally, Mary, are we all craftspeople on our journey towards making art? Such like a existential question. Yeah, yes. I think undoubtedly yes. So you have to. It's like part and parcel. Eric?
00:52:55
Speaker
Yes. Sorry, I interrupted you, Mary, please. I was going to say, I don't know if it's necessary, but I think it should be part of it in my view. Oh, Eric, you raised the question. Can you just be an artist and just skip over the crafts part, the crafts first and part?
00:53:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, let's if we're taking the economics into the situation, yes, you can. If you are attempting to make things that people connect with on an emotional level and make art with a capital A and contribute beautiful with a capital B things to society. I don't think you can. I think you can be a con man in any field you want. I don't think that you can make
00:53:45
Speaker
art that moves people without an understanding of craft. Now craft can also be expanded to like word craft. I'll take Damien Hurst's the impossibility of death in the mind of someone living as art, because the craftsmanship of that statement in in conjunction with the object itself, I think is art.
00:54:08
Speaker
This is off a lot of people, by the way. Yeah, just because my definition continually shifts throughout this episode. Yeah. The people who consider them artists because they have painted a few times they're there. I don't know. Yeah. epoxy. Well, so that goes back that goes back to the mission question, the stickly question, right? Like if you have somebody painting a landscape,
00:54:31
Speaker
Landscapes this same landscape could have been painted a thousand times But that person thinks the landscape and nobody's gonna say it's not art because it's paint on canvas
00:54:41
Speaker
I think you can make art without having a mastery of craft. I think there's probably examples. I can't think of any off the cuff, but I bet people have thought of a way to make something that moved someone very substantially and did not have a mastery of the, of the topic that they did it in. I'm sure that has happened. Mastery may be a strong word, but a strong understanding, right? Strong sense. And it could be an intuitive sense. Maybe.
00:55:08
Speaker
Don't try to qualify it after the fact. Get on here. All right. On that note, now that Eric's been a bad boy, it's time to punish him with his favorite segment and your favorite segment. Oh yeah. Let's mention Patreon. So, um, in the liner notes, we're going to have a link to our Patreon page. Uh, and, uh,
00:55:30
Speaker
Our Patreon page will have three tiers for you to help support our show. And the three tiers are going to be baby bullshitters, typical bullshitters, and top tier bullshitters. Now let me tell you what you get for each tier. So the baby bullshitter is $2 a month. And that's because you want to support our podcast and because you want to see the video feed on YouTube. So that's what we offer is the video feed.
00:55:56
Speaker
little boo boo in the diaper. So that's baby bullshitter, $2 a month. Typical bullshitters are $5 a month. And of course, because you want to support us, but also you get the juicy after show where we dive into Eric's DM even further and offer these, these, uh, wonderful ladies and gentlemen, some advice on how to get Eric. That's worth it right there, guys. That's a high fiber diet.
00:56:19
Speaker
And finally, top tier bullshitters get the YouTube feed, they get the after show, but they also get to propose questions that we may answer in during, you know, submit questions that we may answer in the after show, or if you have questions about us or you want to contribute to the conversation and we'll get to those questions as we can. So those are the three tiers, baby, typical and top tier bullshitters. Link to our Patreon page will be
00:56:50
Speaker
Link to our Patreon page will be in the aligner notes and we'd appreciate it if you'd support this just to defray sort of our cost of production and hosting and all that.
00:57:03
Speaker
Okay. So that's patron now to what we really want to get to. I like how we ask people for money after what is like the sloppiest and most confusing conversation we've had yet. I don't know that there's, I don't know that there's clear cut answers to this, but at least we asked the question. We did. We did. All right. Let's slide. All right. Here we go. By the way.
00:57:29
Speaker
We'd love to hear people's thoughts on the question. Yeah. You know what? I would really enjoy it if you'd push back on some of our thinking because maybe you open our minds to new ways of thinking or maybe you'll just give us a response and it'll be total horseshit and we'll ignore it. But hey, you don't know until you try. On that note, here we go. Slide.
00:57:57
Speaker
The slide. We're going to slow things down, draw back, pour some wine, light some candles, because we're sliding into Eric's DMs. Oh, yeah. What do we have on tap for this week, Eric? Now you probably know because you gave me the DM, but Mary doesn't. I don't. I don't remember what I sent you. Oh, good. Well, we have one. Oh, just another absolute fucking gem. Are you guys ready?
00:58:27
Speaker
Hit me. Brace yourself. Hey, Eric. Please give me a chance. I know all the different types of plyo. I forgot about that one. My God. It's, I gotta be honest. So thirsty. That was such a good DM. That was so funny.
00:58:53
Speaker
Can we play it again? I'm gonna play it again. Hit me. Hit me. Hey, Eric. Please give me a chance. I know all the different types of plywood. That's amazing, Eric. How many different types of plywood are there? We could ask her. I don't know. In your pants. Like, how many types are there?
00:59:14
Speaker
It's at least a seven ply down there. All right. Let's discuss this in the after show. Oh, God. Okay. Well, we'll be discussing how many types of plywood are in Eric's pants in the after show. Let's start with that thought.
00:59:33
Speaker
Again, thank you both for your wonderful, Eric, especially your non-committal, muddy-ass answers about the line between craft and art.
00:59:47
Speaker
And I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it made you think and at least think about, is there a distinction? Does it matter? Does it even matter what the distinction is, if there is one? I think it's just nice to think about these topics. And do you consider yourself an artist or a craftsperson? And does it matter? All right, with that, we're going to sign off. We'll see you next time. Thanks, friends.