Transcript
pjasper: Well, well, well, look who's back. It's your favorite band of misfit toys. This is, woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined by, who are arguably the two best co -hosts in all of podcast history?
Enrique: Whoo!
Mary: Not arguably.
pjasper: Eric Curtis, fine find furniture maker and content creator, and Mary Tsai, UX designer by day,
Krissy: Hmm.
Mary: Oh, you said my name right this time?
pjasper: You were, watching I was watching your face as I said it.
Enrique: Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again, you know?
pjasper: I was watching your face as I said it. UX designer by day, contemporary furniture maker by night. All right, so as you know, we typically start with a question, but before that, before the question today, I want to let you know that we have a special guest and a close friend of ours on the show today, Kristin Siegfried Ballinger, a violin maker, also known as a luthier, if you're sophisticated, ah who ah not only makes violins, but also restores and teaches. And Kristin has graciously agreed to contribute to this episode on
pjasper: Drum roll.
Krissy: imposter syndrome
pjasper: Imposter syndrome. ah Kristen is a graduate and teacher at the Chicago School of Violin Making. She's now in her 12th year of being a professional. Correct, Kristen? And she works at Ruining in Sun Violin in Brookline, where she does restoration and also makes instruments from scratch.
pjasper: at her home in the Boston area. ah She's good friends with us. I happened to know ah Kristin just from Instagram originally, and then we had overlap of two of a random friend of ours, ah Thomas, and Eric. You've done projects with Kristin as well, right?
Enrique: Yeah, Kristen and I, for those of you who have been ah following my work for a while, Kristen is the person who commissioned me to make the Ponchet cabinet, which is still arguably, I think by many people, maybe the best piece I've ever made.
pjasper: That's my favorite piece of yours. so
Mary: Mine too!
Enrique: It's like, but well, well, well, Kristen, Kristen is the person who commissioned me to do that.
Krissy: um Definitely mine.
Enrique: And she is the person who made the Pancha inside that cabinet, which was a masterwork in and of itself. And it was. It was a delight to work with you at that point, which, by the way, I don't want to go too far down this road. But Kristen, like when you talk about phenomenal clients and great people to work with, Kristen was like literally whatever you want to make. And I sent her a bunch of ideas and she was like, they're all great. And then I did none of them and handed her this weird, like, ovular box. And she was like, it's great. It's phenomenal.
Krissy: Make a box, that's all I wanted, make it fit.
Enrique: make a box. Yeah. Well, you also in fairness, you asked me to make a travel case. And then I was like, I think I made a display. And you're like, that's good enough.
Krissy: Beautiful, that's what I need.
pjasper: well kristen we want to thank you
Krissy: Only got a few a few weird looks carrying that on the plane.
Mary: think I could be going insane, but I think I got my violin from Rooting and Sons when I was a kid because that sounds so familiar. It's like the ah and sons part.
Mary: And I know they're based in Boston. I don't know if there's another and blank and sons violin maker in Boston, but.
Krissy: I don't think there is.
pjasper: Well, Kristin, we want to thank you.
Mary: That is crazy because I know that it came from Boston and I was i was like a child, so I didn't remember any of it, but that is wild.
Enrique: Hold on.
Krissy: They've been around for a minute, so it wouldn't surprise me.
Enrique: Is this, is this your super fancy violin that you got from them?
Mary: Yeah.
Mary: Uh, yeah.
Enrique: Like the one you still have that you're like, this is the, the most precious thing that I own in the world.
Mary: Yeah. My, my full size. Mm -hmm.
Mary: Yeah.
Enrique: That's hardcore.
Mary: That is, that is wild.
Enrique: Okay. All right.
Mary: Yeah. That name rings a bell.
Krissy: I'm gonna have to go look it up now.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: Oh, they have records?
Krissy: There's always records.
Enrique: It's spelled to say, just so you know, to say.
pjasper: No.
Krissy: Go find some photos, some glamour shots of it.
pjasper: Yeah, it's pronounced S -I -E. OK.
Mary: Well, my violin teacher ordered it for me at the time.
Krissy: Okay.
Mary: So deepest quality. If you.
Krissy: Okay.
Mary: are equal to.
Enrique: Now we're just flexing violin shit on this one.
pjasper: Yes, already. Mary's flexing already. I knew she was going to flex, but I didn't know the...
Enrique: She's like that one time I played at the Kimmel Center, MBD.
Mary: Oh my god, people. One time? How dare you?
Enrique: Oh, so where we're, we're not even five minutes into this episode and we're just music nerding right now.
pjasper: the multiple music schools I got in and didn't go to.
Mary: Actually, no, I only did Kimball Center once. The other, okay. The Academy of Music was different. It's fun.
Krissy: Listen, we haven't even started in on the viola jokes here.
Mary: Okay, okay. ah
Enrique: Oh man.
Mary: Oh, I'm so down. I'm so down.
pjasper: Oh God. Okay. I'm going to stop this. Okay. ah All right. So. Kristin, thank you so much for being on this episode and contributing to what we think is an important and especially personally vulnerable topic, I would call it, which is imposter syndrome.
Krissy: Yeah.
pjasper: ah The question is, do you have it?
Krissy: Yes.
pjasper: And if you...
Krissy: Yes, that's the answer.
pjasper: And and and if you do, but well what are some signs of it? What do you do with it? can So we're going to like analyze this question from soup to nuts.
pjasper: We'll define it but because Mary's our co -host. And then we'll go into like and analyzing it, looking for signs of it. And then we'll talk about some moments that we all have, we'll share you know where we've had imposter syndrome or felt it.
pjasper: And then we'll talk about a ways to solve it. So Kristen, I just want to say I have the utmost respect for you coming on as a guest to talk about this this topic because this requires self -confidence to talk about you know something like imposter syndrome, right?
Enrique: That's ironic.
pjasper: and and to and to be And to be real with us about it. So thank you very much.
Krissy: Of course, yeah.
Mary: Yeah, we wanted someone who was like an expert in their field too, like at the top of the game to like show that it still happens to people who are like absolute top of the ah their entire creative field.
Krissy: Well, if you're if you want an expert, you're going to have to find somebody else.
Enrique: Yeah, I knew you were going to make that joke, and I almost cut it off right from the jump, and I'm not going to let you do that all episode.
pjasper: So, Kristen and I, yeah.
Enrique: Kristen, before, if you don't know Kristen's work, pause this podcast right now.
Krissy: yeah
Enrique: Go Google Kristen, whatever Paul said. Ballinger Siegfried, Siegfried Ballinger, SiegfriedViolence on Instagram, say the Tigers plus Violin.
pjasper: Sigfried Ballinger, Eric.
Krissy: Siegfried, Roy, Ballinger. b Yeah, there we go.
Enrique: Go Google her, because she really is. ah phenomenal luthier she is an exceptional woodworker ah and I know you can't like listen to a violin over the internet you know or like feel how a violin shut up you know what I'm saying you can't feel how a violin plays over the internet and I don't know exactly how to play a violin well but ah they are beautiful things to behold if nothing else and I trust her expertise in that they play very nicely
Mary: ah
Krissy: I make violence, just what I do.
pjasper: So Eric, ah on that, on that point about calling her an expert, I said, I considered her an expert and she pushed back and I said, is this your imposter syndrome coming out already?
Mary: It is a symptom!
Enrique: Mm -hmm.
Krissy: Oh yes, 100%.
pjasper: Because if you're not an expert by now, well, I don't know what to tell you.
Krissy: Yeah. yeah
pjasper: All right. So why don't we start by defining imposter syndrome? Mary, are you ready for your definition?
Mary: I'm so ready
pjasper: The persistent inability to believe that someone's success is deserved or has been achieved as a result of one's own efforts or skills. Let me read it again. A persistent inability to believe that someone's success is deserved or has been achieved as a result of one's own efforts or skills. And do we want to take a guess at the prevalence? How many, what percent of the population has reported having imposter syndrome or having familiarity with it in moments?
Mary: in moments uh i would say quite high i would say like 60 70 percent
pjasper: Well, like, you know, I mean, and not, well, Mary, not everyone has it like 24 seven. You know what I mean? Like, so what's, what's the prevalence of, of yeah. What do you think the prevalence is?
pjasper: Mary Eric.
Enrique: If I had to take a guess, I would guess um whatever the population of narcissists is and remove that from the overall population. That's probably the amount of people who have experienced imposter syndrome at some point in their life.
pjasper: ah
pjasper: I love it, Eric. that very Great answer. Kristin, would you like to guess? Because Eric didn't give a it's eighty percent.
Krissy: I would say solid 80%. Okay.
pjasper: It's It's like 82%.
Mary: Wow.
pjasper: Yeah. yeah ah Somewhere between 50 and 80%, depending on like the the group.
Mary: huh
pjasper: ah So, you know, Eric said everyone except for narcissists probably has a story about it. So we ah we all four of us, and we haven't discussed this prior, all four of us are coming today with a moment where we felt imposter syndrome as as as a way to just kick off the vulnerability train. So who wants to go first?
pjasper: All right, I'll go for...
Enrique: Awkward silence. I'm refusing to go first.
pjasper: I'll go first. Sure, no problem.
Enrique: OK.
pjasper: So I had been, this is about three, four years ago. I had been making boxes for a number of years. I'd been working, working about, I don't know, 15, 16 years. And I was asked to teach a class at Pratt in Seattle.
pjasper: And so I i said, sure, i'll I'll teach a class and did they call you ah a, ma you know, as a master teacher and you give this lecture. And that that was all fine. But I did have a moment when I got to the class And it was a box making class where...
pjasper: There is no, there is no box to make. There's no like spat box. I know Eric, you do the same thing. It's basically come with an idea and we'll figure it out during the class and still have time to make the box. Right. And I don't know what anyone's bringing me. I have no idea what I, what ideas are coming. I have no idea what the state of the machinery is. I don't know if they're going to come with box ideas that I've never tried before. I can't come up with a way to make. So I remember.
pjasper: Like, having a moment in that class where I was like, just thinking in the back of my head, like, what if I don't know how to pull this off? Like, what if I get an idea so out that I can't come up with a way to do it? And it it felt really uncomfortable in that moment, because I because I don't know what's coming. And I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it. And it felt kind of ah it felt icky. Yeah, it was pretty uncomfortable.
Enrique: that's fair
Mary: Hmm.
pjasper: And, and I mean, there was some problems, but, um, we got through it all and the boxes all weren't all complete, but there were at least 70%, 80%, some were totally complete.
Mary: That's so, that's so tricky, because like, how can you predict, like, if you can know everything in the world, essentially?
pjasper: That's right.
Enrique: you can't
pjasper: Yeah, right.
Enrique: you can't
pjasper: And that's, so that's, I felt, I felt not, not so much imposter, but like, what if I'm not experienced enough to pull this off for these people who paid so much money and have such, such high expectations of the class?
Mary: Mm hmm.
pjasper: It was pretty uncomfortable for for a minute until we got into it and then the nerves slowly went away. But yeah, that was a moment where I felt a bit of it.
Enrique: I am curious again in the conversation later about whether experience tempers imposter syndrome, ah but we're not there yet.
pjasper: Okay. All right, who's next?
Enrique: And I'm refusing to go second. So somebody else go.
Mary: I think a second. don't I don't know why you're refusing so much, but all right.
Enrique: Because I always just talk and I'm like, I'm trying to give you the opportunity to talk more.
Mary: ah Okay. um ah So I am going to talk about a moment when I was working as an architect, I think my entire architecture career was defined by imposter syndrome, because I was straight out of school. So you're new in the field, you're in a very male dominated field, very traditional old school. um And I remember this moment because it was one of the moments where I was like, this isn't, I don't think architecture is for me.
Mary: So I have been working on these plans for a while. We were having meetings with a plumbing engineer or all of the engineers, but um this one plumbing engineer specifically was giving me a lot of problems. I was i had done so much research. I had done this plumbing scheme for him and plan for him that I knew worked and all the I'd done all the details for him. I'd done it on a previous project with a different engineer. So and I was positive it worked. And I remember him literally screaming at me and yelling at me in the room saying,
Mary: you don't know what you're talking about like you're I think he said you're an idiot and my principal was there and he defended me obviously because like like good principle, you should do that. ah But I, at that point, I was like, I i might be, I guess, like, even though I knew that this was like, a I'd done everything correctly, I knew that I'd like looked this up and done so much research. But like, at that point, but with all the emotion in the room, and he was like, and it was just so clear that he did not want to do it, because it was like a little bit of extra work. ah He just went off the rails. And apparently he had done this with a lot of the women in the firm, actually.
Mary: But at that point, I was just like, I guess, ah like, I guess I must be like just a terrible architect. And then I thought about it more and my principal was like, no, she's right. It's like, man, I wish I wish i hadn't like doubted that part of myself.
Mary: So, yeah.
pjasper: wow
Enrique: It's really hard in a moment like that to, to find your bearings and find your confidence.
Mary: Yeah.
Enrique: Cause there's always, always after the fact, you're like, I had the argument. Like I was right.
Mary: Yeah, exactly.
Enrique: And like, I could have just said X, but I didn't because it's so like, it throws you off when somebody gets in your fight in your face.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: It's a fight or flight moment.
Enrique: Yeah, exactly. It's a fight or flight moment.
Mary: Yeah.
Enrique: And you're just like, I don't know how to ah move forward.
Mary: Yeah. My, my reaction, my reactions have definitely changed over time. Like then I was just like frozen up and like now if I, if that happens, like I absolutely know how I would be able to take a step back and like collect myself and rethink but and then present my argument.
Enrique: Yeah.
Mary: But when you're young and you're like right off school, it's so hard.
pjasper: No.
Enrique: Yeah.
pjasper: Yep.
Enrique: I mean, that's a big part of the reason why I left the construction industry. Like the, you know, coming up on the, in the trades, like there's always, there was a million carpenters who were just like, you don't, you don't know how to do this.
Enrique: What the hell's wrong with you kid? You don't know how to do this. I thought she was a carpenter.
Mary: but
Enrique: I'm like, sir, I'm 17. I'm literally here to learn from you.
Mary: Yeah, exactly.
Enrique: Yeah. That's unfortunate, buddy. I'm sorry. Um,
Krissy: and in In violin world, it's, so that's how you do that.
Enrique: Oh, that's that's almost worse.
Krissy: And I'm like...
Mary: ah Weird, passive, aggressive.
Enrique: I would rather have somebody tell me I'm a fucking idiot so I can get right back in their face.
Krissy: Yes,
Enrique: That's that's almost worse.
pjasper: It's like in the south when they say bless your heart and they really mean fuck off, right?
Enrique: Right.
Krissy: ah yes so that's how you're doing that.
Enrique: Right.
pjasper: All right, Kristin, Eric, who's next?
Krissy: Yeah, well, I guess i guess i'll my most recent occurrence with this was applying for my job here in Boston. um you know This even goes back as far as five years ago. I remember seeing a posting for this job and I was like, oh man, that's such a great place to work. That's a killer job. I would love to have that job. you know I wasn't planning on moving at that point. it just you know I remember that thought passing through my head. and Fast forward.
Krissy: three years and all of a sudden I'm moving to Boston and I'm on a job interview at this shop and the owner of the shop who has 50 years of experience is like, oh, here's my head of the shop who's been here with me for 25 years, who has like 30 years of experience.
Krissy: Here's another colleague who is your age with 20 years of experience started doing this in high school. It's like, oh, man, I am so out of my depth with this is like, I am never ever, ever going to get this job. And
pjasper: You got the job.
Krissy: I did get the job, and even even starting out, it was a complete rethink of everything I was doing. It was, oh my goodness, I've been doing i've literally been doing this work for 13, 14 years. I've been teaching this. I should know how to do this.
Krissy: No, they do it completely differently. You need to completely rethink everything. So that was a lot of self -doubt going into that. and I feel like I have no idea what I was doing.
Krissy: but Well, we'll kind of get more into that later about, you know, what what did that turn turn into? But it was, it ended up being a a teachable moment for myself because it was like, okay, let's think about this here.
Krissy: Do you have 20 years of experience? Do you have 50 years of experience? let's Let's get yourself a little break here, ma 'am, and think about your your situation here because, yeah.
pjasper: Yeah, that's good. I see your yeah, I see your coping skills already coming through, right?
Krissy: But you know it's, yes, more more on that later, but you know it's you know nearly 15 years in and it's it's still popping up.
pjasper: All right. But that's for later. The coping skills are for later. Yes.
Enrique: I feel like no matter how many years of experience you have, when you start work in a new environment, it's jarring to a point where you're like.
pjasper: Hmm.
Enrique: I know how I do it. I don't know how you do it. And for me, my coping mechanism in those situations is setting the bar very low. It's just being like, Hey, Hey, I don't know how you do it. I know how I do it. Let's have an honest conversation. Cause then I'm going to feel more comfortable and I can learn the way that you want me to do it. And if we don't do that, and I'm just out here pretending like I know how to do a thing that you might do every day. And I haven't done in seven years, then this is going to end up getting real tense real quick.
Enrique: So let's establish that line of communication. um
Mary: Yeah. Also being like clear about, I don't know and well ah enough information about this. Can you tell me just like that being an important step and I think a level of maturity as well.
Enrique: Yes, yes, yes. And that ah is gonna be my my example. But before I tell you my example, I just wanna say,
Enrique: Even after however many years it's been as a woodworker and designer, uh, there are still moments like a few weeks ago where I'm looking at this piece I need to start.
Krissy: Mm hmm.
Enrique: And I was like, I don't know if this is a good piece. I don't know if I'm fucking good at this. Like, I don't know. Like if I can pull it off and I don't know what it is, I don't know why it was daunting to me, but there, there.
Enrique: There are always those moments of like, I don't know. I don't know if I can do it and I don't know if I should do it.
pjasper: Yep.
Enrique: I don't know if I'm good enough to do it. And I think that just comes with the territory of living in the creative fields. Like it is, there is, it's not math. There is no right or wrong answer.
Enrique: It is just when it's that subjective, it's difficult sometimes to feel concrete and stable all the time.
pjasper: And funny enough, that's what Frank Gehry, the architect said in his masterclass episode, I remember, and he was 92 in that episode or something like that. And he still describes, I mean, I think about a successful career, right?
Enrique: yeah yeah yeah yeah
pjasper: And he still says, you know, every project, there's that self doubt, like, Now I did it last time, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to be able to do it next time. And he, and he always thought that that was a healthy tension in his life.
pjasper: Like it never lets you get to two too, too self -assured, too arrogant or cocky. It always keeps you thinking and always keeps you kind of curious. So I think that's probably a healthy balance.
Enrique: yeah I'm really curious to hear Mary's interpretation of Frank Gehry later on, but I will give you my, my example off the jump is, uh, back to the kind of being honest about what you don't know. When we got to filming the Netflix show, it was a moment of now at this point in time, this was 2020, the beginning of 2020, when we started filming, we're only there for a couple of weeks.
Enrique: Um, before we got shut down, but they cast me, I'm a school teacher. I'm a shot teacher in New Jersey. Right. I've made furniture, but I was not doing it full time at that moment. Um, I had zero camera experience whatsoever, but for whatever reason, they decided to cast me as the carpenter in this show. And we get there in the first day of filming is like an eight, 10 hour day. It's all in the warehouse.
Enrique: And, uh, the first maybe like 15 to 20 minutes is a dare kind of addressing a group of people. This is scenes that we didn't end up using in the, in the final cut, but it dares dressing a group of people. And then they were like, and and after that, Eric, like it's, it's your day. Like there's a lot of things going on in here and it's all based around what you're doing. And I was like, okay. Um, you remember the part where I told you, I don't know what I'm doing, right? Like I have zero experience here. All I know how to just like make.
Enrique: less offensive dick jokes. That's all I got. That's my I'm a one trick pony. So Adair goes and he speaks and he and he does this thing and Adair has a lot of camera experience. And so just because I respect Adair's experience in in the way that he presents himself on camera,
Enrique: I get up there and just instinctively start mimicking Adair. Now Adair is a gay black man. So he's got like a ah very distinct cadence and we went for about 30 seconds.
pjasper: Hahahahaha!
Mary: Oh God, were you offensive?
Enrique: We went for about 30 seconds and Dave, ah the executive producer calls cut and he walks, that was amazing. he Dave's the sweetest guy. He helped me figure out how to be on camera. He was a wonderful producer, but he walks up to me in that moment.
Enrique: He was like, um what the fuck was that? What are you, what are you doing? I was like, I, I don't know. What am I doing? He was like, you're being a dare. We didn't hire you to be a dare, figure out how to be yourself. Like just be a teacher. And it was, and it was that like allowance of, Hey, we've had this conversation. I know you don't know how to do this, but just be the person we hired you to be that allowed me to like calm down and settle into it.
Enrique: And I'm very glad that we didn't end up using that footage in the the actual cut of the show, because it would have been very uncomfortable.
Mary: Get you cancelled in the first 30 seconds.
pjasper: Wow.
Enrique: Oh, immediately.
pjasper: Oh, that's good. I like that. I like all of them. um So maybe we could start ah the analysis portion of like breaking down imposter syndrome by some research and some questions. So I'll ask you a question first. Do you think it occurs equally in men and women?
Enrique: No.
Krissy: No.
Mary: No.
pjasper: ah who Who do you think it occurs more in?
Krissy: Bye, man.
Enrique: Women.
Mary: Women.
pjasper: Yes, so the literature has been mixed on this for some time. There's some controversial reports, but a recent report this year did an analysis of over 40 ,000 people and they came away with the conclusion that women experience imposter syndrome more than men.
pjasper: So that seems to be the correct answer. And especially in minorities or women in male dominated fields.
Enrique: So I,
Enrique: Hmm. I, I'm not questioning that, uh, statistic or that information, but I do wonder if it's influenced by men not wanting to acknowledge to other people or even themselves that they're experiencing imposter syndrome.
pjasper: Uh, they talk, they talk about that, that, that women express it themselves better and men internalize the stress of imposter syndrome more.
Enrique: Yeah.
Enrique: Hmm.
pjasper: They did talk about that.
Enrique: Okay.
pjasper: So, I mean, that's definitely at play arc.
Krissy: Mm hmm.
pjasper: It's early now, uh, an interesting, um, someone brought up a cycle associated with it, like an imposter syndrome cycle. So I read this review by hucker at all from last year.
pjasper: The cycle is the following you're faced with it in step one, you're faced with a task. Step two, you can go one of two ways.
pjasper: There's two types of imposters. There's the over preparation imposter who's who's like the over preparation imposter Mary who is
Enrique: we don't know anybody like that
Mary: hey
pjasper: They say, you know, they they just do so much preparation. And in fact, it's that preparation that makes them feel like an imposter. They say, I feel like a fraud, because I had to prepare so much.
pjasper: And that if someone was really good at this, they wouldn't have to prepare like this, that by is at like, by default makes me an imposter, right?
Enrique: We don't know anybody like that.
Mary: Stop staring at me!
pjasper: Now,
Enrique: I know this is an audio podcast, so I was trying to call you out without calling you out, buddy, all right?
pjasper: So there's the over preparation. Then there's the other way, the procrastinator imposter where it's like, I feel like a fraud because I couldn't bring myself to do it for all this time. Maybe the the the barrier of over preparation was too much. So you put it off and then you just do the bare minimum as fast as you can at the end. And you say, I feel like a fraud because I didn't really prepare enough and I'm going to be outed. Someone's going to find out that I crammed and I'm just like trying to pick up as many pieces as I can at the end. And then what happens after that, whether you were the over preparer or the procrastinator, what follows that in the cycle is the fourth stage, which is you internalize any failures and you explain away the successes.
pjasper: So anything that doesn't go right, you're like, oh yeah, bring it on. And it's almost like a positive feedback loop of accepting the failure. And then anything that went right, you're like, well, it didn't go right because of me.
pjasper: It went right because I just got lucky. That person happened to be in the audience or, you know, it just, it just worked out that time because so -and -so happened to be there.
Enrique: Hmm.
pjasper: So you explain away your success and round and round we go into the imposter syndrome cycle.
Enrique: Do either of you identify with that?
Mary: yeah ah You already know the answer.
Krissy: Can you be both?
pjasper: Can you do both? I think so, Kristin. I think sometimes you do one and sometimes you can do the other depending on how much time you have.
Enrique: To choose your own adventure.
pjasper: Yeah. And, you know, Kristin actually said something interesting.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: She said, you know, we were talking about this show beforehand and a couple of nights ago and she, one of the things she said is I think imposter syndrome co -presents with perfectionism.
Enrique: Mmm.
pjasper: And I made a note of that. I made a note of that. Cause I think she was right. And funny enough, the review I was reading said imposter syndrome co -presents with five other things. The first one perfectionism, Kristen, you were right.
pjasper: the need to be the best, practically unattainable self -imposed standards. right It also presents with what they call super heroism, a tendency to over -prepare tasks and to appear. You're over -preparing for a task that you could already do. You don't need that kind of preparation. You got this.
pjasper: So it's like that super heroism, like you're overdoing something you you know how to do. The third thing it co presents with is fear of failure. imposter syndrome, ah those people experience anxiety, the feel of being shamed or humiliated if you fail. And if you do fail, guess what? You're going to be outed. Everyone's gonna know you're a fraud.
pjasper: Right. So fear of failure comes with it. Also denial of competence and capabilities. Right. So that's what I was, like you know, if something goes well, you explain it away. Uh, it's closely tied to perfectionism. Uh, they discount their intelligence, they discount their experience, their skills and their natural talents. And, um, there's a propensity to internalize the failure, but explain away the success. And the last thing it co -presents with is a fear of success.
pjasper: Meaning like it's hard to hear positive things. And if you do get positive feedback, it just, it's kind of in one ear out the other. It doesn't really lodge in there and give you a a better sense of self. And, um, whereas failures do register. And that's all you could hear 10 good, you could hear 10 pieces of feedback. Nine of them are good and one of them's bad. And all you're going to hear is the bad one.
pjasper: So there's a lot of co -presenting with imposter syndrome. Like I said, perfectionist, perfectionism, super heroism, fear of failure, denial of your own competence and fear of success. Those are the five things they said it co -presents with.
Enrique: Fear of success is a really interesting one to me. Cause I, I, I hear what you're saying about not being able to take in positive feedback, but I also wonder if this is just me like thinking about myself in moments where I have that, that kind of. What I would call imposter syndrome, but I don't know if it hits the definition, but in those moments of thinking, like if this person thinks highly of me in this regard, can I reproduce it?
Enrique: Like if I'm, if I'm a fraud, right?
pjasper: That's yes.
Enrique: Like, I don't know.
pjasper: Right.
Enrique: And it succeeds in, and then throwing away your own successes, right? You're like, I don't know how I did it.
pjasper: Yep.
Enrique: It just happened. Whatever the stars aligned in to happen. So if this person is like, now I expect X of you, you're like, I don't know how to get back to X.
pjasper: So Eric, it's so funny you said that because the last sentence I didn't read about fear of success, I was trying to save time. The last sentence of that was success as succeeding may actually lead to a higher expectation or increased pre existing workload the next time.
Enrique: Well, the, the reason I thought of that was, you know, when I was a younger man and a terrible student, there was, I was a terrible student for a number of reasons. One of which is, you know, I think I have some form of ADHD and in.
Enrique: Maybe dyslexia. I don't know. But in either case, I'm reading and keeping up with the reading in school was very difficult for me. I'm a slow reader. And so if I came into class with the excuse of, ah, I just didn't do the reading.
Enrique: Then the, I immediately set the bar lower. So it was easier to clear. Like I had an excuse for not being as good as I was expected to be, or I should have been.
pjasper: Yeah.
pjasper: Yeah. So Eric, you said something just now, which is like, I don't know if this is the right definition of imposter syndrome, which brings up our next question. How does one realize if they're experiencing posture syndrome?
pjasper: How do you know?
Enrique: Can you go back to...
pjasper: What's it feel like?
Krissy: I would say just discomfort, like you this this genuine genuine feeling of, I am in a situation where I should feel comfortable or and it's you know you can you feel out of your element, but is it it it is a a genuine feeling of discomfort and i I don't know what to do with this.
pjasper: Is it, is it panic? or Is your heart racing?
Krissy: It is a little bit of panic. i think I think it can be different depending on the situation, but yeah, that's what it is, at least for me.
Mary: I think, I think there's also a time element too, for me where it's, I'm experiencing imposter syndrome and then time passes and I realized looking back on it, that, that was like, I don't know, foolish, but like different state of mind that I was in that I like, you know, once everything has passed, you're like, Oh, I shouldn't have, you know, freaked out about that. I shouldn't have been worried about that.
Mary: that may have been, that that might be a more obvious sign to me of like, oh, maybe I was experiencing imposter syndrome then.
pjasper: Hmm.
Enrique: Paul, can you read your original definition of, uh, imposter syndrome? Cause there was something in there that struck me and I can't recall what it is at the moment.
pjasper: Yeah. Sure. The persistent inability to believe that someone's success is deserved or has been achieved as a result of one's own efforts or skills.
Enrique: Hmm. So, okay. So that's what it was. I, I, that definition is, is acknowledging that you have experience and skill built over time, presumably. And I think a lot of us.
Enrique: label experience, for example, in my own, um, story about feeling imposter syndrome. I'm unsure if that's um imposter syndrome because it was about inexperience. Like I didn't have the experience of being on television. So of course I was uncomfortable trying to figure out how to be on television. Right. Versus, versus like a few weeks ago where I've been making furniture as a professional for 12, 13 years.
Enrique: And I was like, I don't know if I'm any good. Like, I don't know if I can make a box interesting and.
pjasper: That sounds more like imposter syndrome to me, the second one.
Enrique: and Right, right, right, right, right. And that that that ebbs and flows that comes in waves. um But I guess I wanted to point out that difference because there are times where like we try something new and we feel like imposters because we haven't done it or we don't have a lot of experience versus hey, I've been.
Enrique: the president of the violence society. And I still feel like I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
pjasper: Well, Eric, it's typically manifested in the most highly achieving individuals, I saw a graph that stratified like the amount of achievement that like a group of students had, and the higher their achievement went, and the better they were at everything, the more imposter syndrome they had.
Enrique: Hmm.
Mary: That, I mean, that doesn't surprise me too much because when you are so hot, so such a high achiever, you surround yourself and you look up to people that also set a higher bar for you because you, you know, you're ambitious, you have a goal for yourself. So I could see that happening. I mean, I know that happens to me. I have what set seven years of design school under my belt and I'm in a very senior position and at my company like all of that I still have i have so many years of experience and still I experience imposter syndrome when I encounter like oh is this good like I don't I don't know like I think I might be terrible at this and then you have to take a step back and be like no I have I like in my brain I can kind of like check off the facts of like I know that this is good I know that this is bad I know like what you know I can think of it a little bit more technically now
Mary: um So yeah, I think I relate to that for sure.
pjasper: Well, it sounds like you know how to parse it. And so I'm curious, it, you know, before, before you you've figured out how to solve it, like what bad, like when you've had imposter syndrome and if it gets to be kind of a runaway train, what sort of bad things emanate from there? Like, is there negative self talk? Kristen, do you have Mary? Yeah, go ahead.
Krissy: ah Yeah, I mean, there's there's a number of reactions. Negative cell talk is definitely one of them. I'm a fraud. They're gonna find out that I have no idea what I'm doing. um you know There's physiological reactions as well. you know You can be nervous, you can be shaking.
Krissy: um you know every You can pick your favorite defense mechanism, humor, goofing off, all sorts of things.
pjasper: EH
Krissy: um Eric, you mentioned fight or flight earlier, you can you can get really defensive. you know you you don't know You feel like you don't know what you're talking about, and then so you you stick to what you know, and you say, okay, well, this is what I know.
Mary: Yeah.
Enrique: sure
Mary: yeah
Krissy: It must be right. And then you kind of back yourself into a corner because it's what you know and you don't have the clarity to step back and say, okay, wait a second.
Krissy: There may be other ways to do this. and So rather than reframing, you are, you are closing yourself in.
pjasper: So let's, yeah, let's go through, let's go through real quick.
Krissy: So it is, you know, there's various responses and I think everyone's is a little bit different.
pjasper: What have your responses been? How did you, and so Kristen, why don't you go first? When you had imposter syndrome, whether it was interviewing for that job or whatever, what came out of you? What happened in the moment?
Krissy: It was, why why am I even here? Like, yes, I i know these people, but seriously, what why am I here?
pjasper: Wow.
Krissy: Like, they they kind of know me, so I guess that's why they let me in the door, but but genuinely, like, confusion is why am I here? Yes, they'll look let me look at some nice violins because they're nice people, but do I really deserve this job?
pjasper: Okay.
Krissy: So, I mean, that was those were the thoughts running through my head.
pjasper: So is it so, so for you, it wasn't like fight or flight. It wasn't, I'm going to argue and and hold my point. It was more like, uh, negative self talk going on in the back of your head at the same time.
Krissy: Mm hmm. Yeah.
pjasper: Okay. Mary.
Mary: Uh, so I think for me, this is more of like a later, more experienced, uh, version of myself where I'm able to kind of not let that feeling of imposter syndrome flood myself or flood me. Like, I think there's a lot of value in saying, I don't know. And I've gotten really comfortable with that when I started this new job in the video editing world, I didn't know that much about video editing, and there's so much jargon, there's so much complexity in this world, like way more than i then I can even describe or imagine.
Mary: I was like, there's no way that I can know any of this stuff. So like, one, surround yourself with people that you feel comfortable asking questions, and two, I was just okay being like, I'm sorry, I don't know, could you explain this to me?
Mary: I know what I'm good at, so let's blend those two like pieces of information together.
pjasper: Now,
pjasper: Well, so that's the more experienced you. how how did the How did the younger you who got flooded with panic respond to it?
Mary: Yeah. Oh,
Mary: I stutter. I stutter when I get nervous.
pjasper: Really?
Enrique: Really?
Mary: I still do. Yeah, I still do. When I get nervous, I ah basically I'm like Michael Scott, I start a sentence and I don't know where it's going.
Krissy: but
pjasper: ah
Mary: And then on i I'm just like.
Enrique: That is that's how I live my life, buddy.
Mary: Yeah, so it's I mean it's more of this idea of like okay i got I have to say something like I have to prove that I like know something at least so like just putting any kind of words or information out in the world I i used to think was and I still do sometimes when I get really nervous a That was my first instinct
Enrique: That's every time I listen to this podcast back to see if we did a good job, that is my takeaway from myself is I'm just saying words for the fucking sake of saying words. And I need to figure out how to how to, you know, make it shorter.
Mary: We all do though.
pjasper: but eric Eric, while you're saying words, why don't you tell us how you dealt with your imposter syndrome?
Enrique: Oh, um
pjasper: Or like what happened? Not how you dealt with it. How did it manifest in you?
Enrique: As, as a younger person, um, it was like full on flight. Like it was just, um, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know why I'm here.
Enrique: I'm going to get out. I'm going to make some jokes. Like i'll I'll make jokes and ease the tension, right?
pjasper: Humor.
Mary: definitely see that.
Krissy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Enrique: Humor. And, uh, and as soon as like I put you at ease and you're not looking, I'm out the back.
pjasper: Humor.
Enrique: I'm Irish. Goodbyeing. Like I'm gone.
Mary: Hahaha!
pjasper: Wow.
Enrique: Um, and. Also coming back to that, like using the excuse of like, Oh, well, you know, I didn't do the reading. Like, of course, you know, I don't know what the answer is. Um, as an adult, cause I mean, look, this is the whole conversation we're having is that it still happens. And, uh, when it does happen, anytime I'm in a situation where I'm nervous and I can feel, um, my heart rate rising. Um, and here's a, here's a very.
Enrique: a distinct physiological thing that happens is, you know, your heart rate rises and so you're, you start to breathe more quickly, but I forget to breathe more quickly because I'm trying to look cool on the outside. So what I end up doing is yawning a lot.
Mary: What?
Enrique: I know it's very like if I'm backstage before an event, I yawn a lot because it's like my body needs more oxygen and I'm just trying to pretend like I don't need to breathe faster.
Mary: That's crazy.
pjasper: That's amazing. so you So you want to get the fuck out of there. You're making jokes and cracking jokes and yawning a lot.
Enrique: and yawning simultaneously. ah But but the way that I have found ah to cope with it now in a more healthy way, I think, is I remind myself that it doesn't matter.
pjasper: That's amazing.
Enrique: Like whatever it is I'm doing in that moment, even if I fail spectacularly, it's not going to derail my life. Like it's not going to end my career.
Enrique: it is going to be a thing that I'm embarrassed. And there's plenty of things, we could ah spend a whole hour of this podcast talking about things that I've done in the public eye that I'm still mortified about.
Mary: Hahahaha!
Enrique: And Paul and Mary know several of those things.
pjasper: Yeah.
Enrique: um But in those, the blackmail is real.
pjasper: Yeah, Mary, we do.
Enrique: um In those moments, I remind myself that it it doesn't matter. I have overcome difficult things in my life. And ultimately, like I have friends, I have family who loves me.
Enrique: Uh, I am, I am in an okay position in life, thankfully.
pjasper: Yeah.
Enrique: And whatever, whatever I can actually fuck up that badly, I will be able to overcome. But it is a thing. Like I literally just tell myself, none of this matters.
Enrique: That's what I say to myself over and over.
pjasper: That's good. I like that. we Well, that's our next topic is coping strategies. ah for For me, in the moment, I'm an internalizer.
pjasper: I've learned about myself. I internalize my stress.
Mary: yeah
pjasper: I don't even know I have it as much sometimes, but suddenly I have a stomach ache. And it's a very particular stomach ache.
Enrique: Mmm.
pjasper: It has a unique feel to it. It's like in a certain region across the top, radiating left to right. And I started having some heart palpitations that followed the next day, like a lot of heart palpitations.
pjasper: And at first I thought, I'm like, and I have a heart attack. Cause I don't feel stressed in my head. I don't. If you say, Hey, how are you feeling? I'm like, Oh, great day. Everything's cool. But my body's betraying me. It's telling me the true story.
pjasper: I like heart palpitations, stomach ache. I'm burping all the time. So Eric's cracking jokes and yawning and I'm burping.
Enrique: Mmm.
pjasper: My heart's beating out of my chest.
Enrique: We are a ah strange trio.
pjasper: Yeah. So, uh, so for me that that's how it manifests physically. So Eric, you started, I think where we want to go and next, which is, and I want to ask Kristen first. So what's the solution? Like, what are some solutions to dealing with this?
Krissy: is this and Is this one we're starting the therapy session?
pjasper: I think so.
Enrique: Oh, buddy, we've been in it for 44 minutes.
pjasper: I think so.
Krissy: well what We're already in here.
Enrique: That was just the warm up.
pjasper: I, Well, I'll start by saying, I guess you have to figure out ah just as you're saying, as you're on the couch in the therapist's office, they say, tell me about your family. I think we have to start with like, how did we get here? Like, what causes imposter syndrome? And from a research point of view,
pjasper: Oh boy, everyone buckle up.
pjasper: Many things, and I'm quoting, many things can lead to imposter syndrome. So it's difficult to pinpoint exact causes. However, research on it has linked family environment to the phenomenon, specifically families that have highly emphasized achievement.
Enrique: Hmm.
pjasper: Sometimes people who grow up in this kind of environment internalize the message that their value as a person is based solely on their achievements. and consequently develop a sense of contingent self -worth.
Enrique: Kristin, what was your GPA?
Krissy: ah
Krissy: Let me tell you about both of my doctor parents but not and how I went to trade school.
Enrique: Well, I am curious, though, because I have often i've I've wondered in I guess, Paul, what you just said kind of backs that that up a little bit like the the exceptional students, the straight a students have coming back to our super well organized conversation about competition a couple of weeks ago.
Enrique: Uh, like there is a metric there that says you are achieving and you are exceptional, right? You can get that a and in my experience, and I was not one of these people, but the, the people who get straight A's, if they get a B it just, it's a fucking F like it might as well just be an F there's no reason to get a B.
pjasper: There's
Enrique: But as, as, as soon as you get out into adulthood and the workforce, and there is no real metric, there's no grade there. There was just a, ah, what you did kind of worked, but it kind of didn't.
Enrique: And here's what you can improve. Then that anxiety starts to raise because how do you know that you're succeeding? and You don't, you're just floating out into the ether of like, well, I guess the violence sold, but like, was he really that happy with it?
Enrique: Does it play that well? Does it play as well as another one? Was it, did it look as good as a different one? it Did it, it didn't win the the number one award at the show.
pjasper: Hmm.
Krissy: It didn't win a gold.
Enrique: So how do I, It show, how do I know if it's any good? How do we know if I'm any good?
Krissy: Listen, you're you're talking about my my my trip two years ago, hey. but
pjasper: Well, I would ask Mary and Chrissy, for those who can't see the video, they were both making faces during talking about growing up in environments where achievement was, was, uh, was well, very intense.
Enrique: Uh, and notice, notice they didn't answer the question about the GPA, but that's fine.
pjasper: Is that true?
pjasper: Marry it, Kristen.
Mary: Wait, what was the question?
Enrique: What was your GPA?
Mary: Uh, what do you think it was?
Enrique: I know it was a four. Oh, that's why I asked to prove my point.
Mary: Uh, yeah.
pjasper: ah
Mary: Yeah, I grew - okay, fine. Fine. I grew up in an Asian household where I had a brother who was six years older than me to constantly be compared to.
Enrique: Wait, you're Asian.
Mary: Yes, I relate a lot to it. I am 100 % positive it relates to all of my imposter syndrome. ah And it was like ground into me that grades were important, that statistical achievements were important. um Actually, funnily enough, I was talking to my parents about this recently, and they're like, oh, yeah, that stuff doesn't matter anymore. It's like, you say that now after all of this stuff?
Mary: Oh my god, oh my god, like of course they like showed up in their older age and they realized like, I don't work with anyone who went to an Ivy League school like this is, and we can all achieve the same sort of stuff.
Krissy: oh
Enrique: Mmhmm.
Krissy: Yeah.
Mary: And it's just so frustrating to hear now but it's fine. So yes, I can relate to this a lot. I think that it is absolutely the fuel for my imposter syndrome.
Mary: It is also probably why I feel a little bit better and I'm able to tackle my imposter syndrome now as I've gotten farther away from all of that, which is excellent.
pjasper: All right, so let's talk about how we candle it. So Kristen, why don't you go first? What are some strategies you have to handle imposter syndrome or to make it better in the moment or even long term?
Krissy: ah I think first off is just realizing that it's happening to you. you know we were We talked about the different responses that happen, but having that awareness of saying, okay, this is what's actually happening. Mary, you've said, okay, you go 20, 30 minutes later, a couple days later, you're like, okay, let's Let's talk about this. what This is what was actually going on in that moment, but having the self -awareness to say, these this is what was going on in my head, this is what was going on in the situation, like identifying that feeling of imposter syndrome and and then going from there and saying, okay, let's then analyze the situation.
Krissy: what am i What are my actual skills? you know for the I'm thinking, okay, setting up a violin, it and coming to this new job, it was a complete rework of everything that I had been doing, like brand new sets of numbers and parameters that that is done differently here in Boston, that was done in Chicago that I had been learning and been doing for 10 years at that point.
pjasper: in that moment, but having the self -awareness to say, this is what
Krissy: And it's like, okay, You learned it differently. This is just different. This is not, you don't know what you're doing. This is a new way of doing things. It's not, you don't know what you're doing.
Krissy: so But that is a reframe. So that's kind of my my third step is you know realize it's happening, analyze what's going on, and then reframe. OK, what can we do with this? Can we just get mad and say, OK, well, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just going to quit now. No, I'm going to say, how can I use this to my benefit? How can I use this to everyone's benefit?
Krissy: you know I think all three of you have mentioned honesty, just being honest with your coworkers, whoever you're around and saying, like I don't know. There's a lot of power in that and being able to take that and use it for for good.
pjasper: There's a lot of power in that.
Krissy: So reframing that in your head and being able to use you know this ah this feeling of discomfort and you know and turning it around and using it for good.
Krissy: So to benefit you.
pjasper: you, Eric?
Enrique: How do I cope with it?
pjasper: Yeah, how did you cope with it? What have you found?
Mary: hard drugs.
pjasper: What strategies?
Enrique: Did you say hard drugs?
pjasper: What strategies have helped?
Enrique: Is that what you just said?
Mary: Yeah, that's a lot of drugs on Eric's part.
Enrique: No, I mean, again, i I do try to repeat to myself that it doesn't matter. It's not going to destabilize my life. um The honesty component of it is like I have to be brutally honest because if I feel like I am pretending to be something that I'm not, then it's very uncomfortable and it compounds the imposter syndrome.
Enrique: Um, so i'll like just a brief example, a year and a half ago when I decided to focus on YouTube, um, I wanted some supplemental income to like make sure that, you know, I could pay my mortgage.
Enrique: So I got a part -time job at a cabinet shop. I haven't worked in a cabinet shop since 2017 at that point.
Mary: yeah.
pjasper: and remember that
Enrique: Right. So that had been what, seven years. It'd been a long time since I had put together in fabricated. Um, and, uh, like i maybe the first or second week I had to install drawer slots.
Enrique: I completely forgotten how to install drawer slots. And so instead of like walking up to the, the the shop manager, the floor manager and just be like, Hey bro, can you give me like, I haven't done this in seven years.
pjasper: I remember that.
Enrique: Can you give me a 30 second reminder? I slunked over into the corner, picked up my phone and watched a YouTube video on how to install drawer slides.
Mary: ah
Enrique: And it was one of those moments where I was like, I knew in the moment, I was like, what am I doing? Like, this is so juvenile. And then eventually he came over and he was like, what are you doing?
Enrique: I was like, I don't remember how to do drawer slides. Can you just give me, just give me a 30 second bro.
pjasper: Eric!
pjasper: That's when you say nothing. I was just checking my email.
Enrique: Yeah, well, that's it.
pjasper: ah
Enrique: yeah You know, at that point, I was just like, ah, you caught me, man.
Mary: Oh my god.
pjasper: Yeah.
Enrique: You know, um but I think it is like had that interaction not happened, it would have been a still ah in unease through the rest of that project of like, oh, and like it's this skill set is so rusty and I don't want to fuck this up.
pjasper: Yeah.
Enrique: So you're hyper aware and it's just draining. You know, so just just having an honest conversation to like, you know,
pjasper: Okay.
Enrique: You just give me a reminder.
pjasper: So, so, so far I've heard like honesty, like asking for help, reminding yourself, you are competent, you are capable and the the sun will come up tomorrow, right?
Mary: Yeah.
Enrique: Mm.
pjasper: It's not the end of the world. Mary, do you have any to add to that?
Mary: ah The ah only, the one thing I wanted to to mention, which was kind of talked about ah ah here was seeking people that you're comfortable asking help from.
Enrique: Mm.
Mary: Like when I
pjasper: Like a mentor.
Mary: ah Mentor, it doesn't even have to be a mentor. It's just someone who gives off you know the energy of, I understand that you're new, and I am totally open to helping you and not judging you.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: like I think that's so valuable, and that's why like whenever someone new or like an intern starts, like I'm just like, ask me anything. Honestly, like I was in the exact same position as you.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: This is our difficult world we're in, and this field this like expertise field It's just so complicated. So I think for me, that's the most valuable part that I've learned.
pjasper: Okay. You know, I want to come back to the idea of saying I don't know. Yeah, as a scientist, one of the most important things you have to learn is to say I don't know when you don't know otherwise you're lying and or making shit up or you know, shooting from the hip and that there's no place for that in science.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: yeah Like we need the truth, right? So you have to um you have to be able to say, I don't know. And that's a skill. And people who are scared of not knowing everything, you know, when they don't know, they just make shit up.
pjasper: And I can tell those people from a mile away now, and I don't trust them, and I kind of avoid them. So when I hear someone say, I don't know, I immediately like them because I know they're like honest with themselves about what they do.
Enrique: Mm -hmm.
pjasper: and i love It's just, yeah, it is.
Mary: Yeah, it's a sign of maturity.
pjasper: Saying, I don't know is a sign of maturity. um so So finally, ah does it get better? Does it get better with time? Does it go away with experience? Eric, I think you brought this up earlier.
Enrique: Well, I wonder if it if it goes away with experience. um But if our definition of imposter syndrome is having experience and not validating that experience, then maybe it doesn't. I don't know the answer to that. I think in my experience,
Enrique: having some skill set or or in my case pieces that I can point to like this is I think part of the thing that drew me to furniture specifically is that there is a tangible thing that I can like touch and feel and knock on and go I made that so that's proof that I have some skill set.
Enrique: And that then allows me to re -anchor myself in those moments of kind of panic and and imposter syndrome at its height. So I guess my answer to the question would be yes and no. In in best case scenario, yes, it does go away with experience because like you you have a body of work that you can point to and you go, no, I know how to do this. Worst case scenario, you don't take that as valid proof that you know what you're doing.
pjasper: Hmm.
pjasper: Kristen, would you say yours got better with time? Or it still happens just as much, you just know how to cope with it. Which of those is true?
Krissy: i I would say that it it still happens, um and like there have been some very powerful moments, especially in the last couple of years. I will say that my skills for dealing with it have definitely improved, which lessens the impact of it.
Krissy: ah you know it's you know I am able to recognize what's going on a lot faster and deal with it faster. so the skills The skills are still there and they're developing and getting stronger, um just like developing a lot of mental skills and you know coping skills as well. it It is essentially a coping skill.
Krissy: um i I don't think it completely goes away, and I also don't think that's the worst thing. um you know You guys had talked about, in perfectionism, okay, it can be a bad thing, but it can also be a powerful thing. you know I think re -evaluating your skills is not a bad thing, and you know saying, okay, is there another way to do this?
Krissy: if you are If you are assessing it correctly and not completely going down the rabbit hole, and I'm a complete failure. i you know I shouldn't be here. I don't deserve this.
Krissy: ah If you can reassess your skills and be self -analytical without getting into the dark mental places, yeah, I think it can be a skill.
pjasper: Okay.
Krissy: It can be helpful. So I don't think it does completely go away. So you just get better at dealing with it.
pjasper: i've Yeah, I found it gets better with me telling myself, well, I don't have to know everything. It's okay to not know everything. And what I have to offer is X. I can teach you how to make this, or I can teach you this. I'm coming, I'm offering this. I'm not offering everything. So this is how I do it, take it or leave it. And if you think it's wrong, or you don't like how I did it, that's totally okay.
pjasper: But this is what I have to offer. I'm not a fraud because I don't know every other way, but I'm just, you know, we're all human. We have a limit of what we know and I'm bringing you what I know. So take it or leave it.
Krissy: You know?
pjasper: I've sort of come to that kind of view instead of expecting myself to know everything.
Mary: who knows everything that's that's like a crazy expectation it seems oh man i mean yeah i i
pjasper: Well, I mean, yeah.
Enrique: that's That's very ironic coming from the person who expects themselves to know everything about all of the things all the time always. don't If you're going to tell me to fuck off, say it in an audio format. Don't flip the bird.
pjasper: All right, kids.
Enrique: ah
Mary: I would repeat everything everyone just said. I mean, it it takes time and I definitely still experience it. Less so for sure. But also the one thing that I want to add is I'm a lot more comfortable in knowing my strengths. And I think that helps alleviate the imposter syndrome. Like this is what I'm good at. I have this whole other area I don't know. And I think that the two balance each other out and I bring this to the table This is what someone else can bring to the table. Let's, you know, share knowledge.
pjasper: It's it sort of accepting that we're all we all have limitations as opposed to expecting perfection of yourself. I like that. All right, kids, I think we talked.
pjasper: Well, it's we're just hit an hour about imposter. It went really fast, actually.
Enrique: good therapy session guys.
Krissy: Yeah.
pjasper: Yeah, it went it went really fast that hour.
Enrique: Yeah
Krissy: How much are we charging each other for this?
pjasper: God.
pjasper: and we And there's a bunch of things, Kristin and I outlined, that we even didn't even get to. We had skipped it all like because we're already at an hour. So ah with that, I think we're going to cut bait on the imposter syndrome. We hope that was helpful ah to you. And I hope, you know, what a lot of people tell us in social media and messages is like,
pjasper: I really related to so and so's view of that or, you know, Mary said this or, you know, Kristen was talking about that. And it seems like I get so many messages of people relating to one viewer or another. So I hope at least at some point in this conversation, we hit the particular nail you know on the head for you because we it's it's pretty clear everyone's experience is different. With that, we're going to switch to a segment. Now, we always do a second segment and usually it's like feature a fail or Uh, what is it?
pjasper: You know, like, um, woodworking trivia, myth busting, uh, lightning round.
Enrique: Woodworking trivia.
pjasper: But we decided that we're going to let Kristin take the lead and give us some, it's called violin bullshit and it's trivia and myth busting related to the classic instrument.
Enrique: This is dangerous.
Krissy: Yes.
Krissy: I'm so excited. I've been working on this for a couple days.
Enrique: ah So so over prepare.
Krissy: Okay.
Enrique: OK, cool.
Krissy: I did over -prepare. I was trying to think of the weirdest stuff that has happened, but also related to woodworking.
pjasper: ah
Krissy: Okay, so, violin bullshit. we're gonna I'm gonna start out a little bit easy.
pjasper: Okay.
Krissy: where we're gonna do woodworking related and we're gonna go through, okay, what are the different types of woods that are used on a violin, including the fittings?
Enrique: No, you go last.
pjasper: Hey, Kristen, i don't even I don't even know what fittings means.
Enrique: You don't get it.
pjasper: What are fittings?
Enrique: OK. All right. All right. Do we go one at a time? Is this how this works?
Krissy: Yeah, yeah, okay, Paul.
Enrique: All right. Paul? Paul?
pjasper: ah I think ah usually curly maple for the back and the ribs and spruce for the top.
Enrique: One. One at a time. One at a time.
Krissy: one one okay eric okay mary yes yes there are alternatives to
pjasper: Oh, sorry.
Enrique: Spruce for the sound board.
Mary: Ebony.
pjasper: I'm out. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. um um um Is it Sycamore or Beach for the bridge that holds the strings up? Okay, wrong.
Enrique: Are we are we sticking with classic violence specifically or is this like ah just like wooden instruments?
Krissy: To backs, there are some alternatives to maple.
Enrique: There are alternatives to backs.
Krissy: Yes.
Enrique: OK, are we we're not going to.
Krissy: And also the internal parts too.
pjasper: Oh.
Enrique: Oh, don't you nod your head knowingly, Mary. She's so smug right now.
Mary: The
pjasper: Wait, wait, so hold on. So we have maple maple for the back.
Enrique: Maple Spruce and Ebony.
Krissy: Maple, spruce, ebony.
pjasper: Spruce and Ebony is for the thing where you put your fingers.
Mary: fingerboard.
Krissy: Yes, the fingerboard.
pjasper: Fingerboard.
Enrique: and And for the fittings, right the tuning the tuting knobs.
pjasper: Okay.
Krissy: Yeah.
pjasper: What are fittings?
Krissy: Sometimes for the fittings, there are other other options for the fittings as well.
Enrique: OK, is Rosewood on the table for those?
Krissy: Yeah, there you go.
Enrique: Amazing, thank you.
Krissy: Count it.
Enrique: got Paul, this is an audio medium. If you want to tell me to fuck off, say it.
pjasper: ah
pjasper: Fuck off with your fucking smug, your fucking smug Rosewood shit.
Enrique: i'm just trying I'm just trying to beat Mary right now, buddy. We're on the same team.
pjasper: Okay. All right, go.
Mary: Willow would.
Krissy: Willow, yeah.
Enrique: You son of a bitch.
pjasper: What?
Mary: Yep.
Krissy: hu
pjasper: what's Where's that?
Krissy: ah It can be the back.
Enrique: Comes from a willow tree.
Mary: Like internal stuff, right?
Krissy: It can also be the corner blocks and linings.
Enrique: Horse glue.
Mary: That's not a wood!
Krissy: That's a later question. You're skipping a...
Enrique: I'm just saying things I know that violins are built with at this point. Brass rod.
Krissy: No.
pjasper: What else? ah How about the bridge?
Enrique: Are there more?
Mary: i I know of Boxwood.
Enrique: How how many we got?
pjasper: What's the bridge?
Krissy: Okay. Boxwood.
Mary: Yeah.
Krissy: Wait, did you... Eric, did you say Boxwood?
Enrique: Yes.
Mary: No, he did not!
Krissy: No, no, he said rosewood. Okay, boxwood.
Enrique: um
pjasper: What's it what's it used for?
Krissy: Okay, boxwood can be pegs, chin rest, and pin.
pjasper: What's boxwood?
Mary: Yeah, that's all I know.
Krissy: Yeah.
Enrique: Pop pie.
Krissy: I think I've only got ah two more.
pjasper: Okay, go ahead.
Krissy: Poplar and pear.
Enrique: I was going to say poplar, but I didn't think that was true.
Mary: Oh!
Krissy: Uh -huh.
pjasper: yeah What do they use for?
Enrique: Damn it.
Krissy: Backs.
pjasper: Oh.
Enrique: Poplar is used for a back really interesting so sign of batches Those if we don't make a t -shirt that says American poplar looks like a bag of dicks I quit this show
Krissy: Yeah, backs and ribs. Yep. So Italian poplar is really, really beautiful.
pjasper: Really?
Krissy: Yeah.
Mary: Paul is so, like, in such disgust!
Krissy: I'll find a picture. I'll find a picture and sell you.
pjasper: I'm like, American Poplar looks like a bag of dicks, so.
Krissy: Send it to you.
pjasper: ah
Krissy: All right. Well,
Krissy: ah
Krissy: All right.
Enrique: All right, what's it what's the next one?
Mary: Okay, I'd like to point out that I that i got more than Eric just saying.
Krissy: what youre Yes, you did get more than Eric.
Enrique: ah but But if Paul and I are on the same team, which is true, then we tied.
Mary: what
pjasper: And Bag of Dicks just won outright.
Mary: How is that fair?
Enrique: Bag of dicks just won it. let's just That's just the winning.
pjasper: That just wrote won the whole thing outright.
Enrique: Yeah.
pjasper: Wait, Kristen, what's the what's the bridge? Where did the strings go over it? What's that thing made of?
Krissy: Maple.
pjasper: Oh, that's Maple? Oh, okay.
Enrique: Italian poplar.
Mary: but
Enrique: Okay, all right, what else you got?
Mary: F -holes!
pjasper: B -O -D.
Krissy: All right, are we ready for the next one?
Enrique: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
pjasper: Yup.
Krissy: It's a it's a what is this part called?
pjasper: Okay.
Enrique: Bag of dicks.
Krissy: What are these called?
pjasper: ah
Enrique: Sound hole.
Mary: eholes
Krissy: F -holes. F -holes are sound holes. Okay, I'll give it to you.
Enrique: All right, listen, that's a one -to -one, all right?
pjasper: a -holes mmm
Krissy: Okay, I'll get a tie there. um do you do Should we do she would do trivia or another what's this?
Enrique: Damn right, that's how you politic, Mary, get on my level.
Enrique: I just wanna to beat Mary.
pjasper: well trivia sinew
Mary: Mmm, chirvia.
Krissy: Trivia, what were strings historically made out of?
Enrique: Horsehair.
Mary: Oh, I feel like I know this. Isn't it like goat something or sheep something?
Enrique: Goats. A bag of dicks.
Mary: Oh my God. I feel like I know this.
Enrique: Goat intestines.
pjasper: Is it like sinew?
Krissy: Gut, gut, sheep gut.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: What? Sheep gut?
Mary: Yeah.
Krissy: you Sheep gut, yeah.
pjasper: That's what I meant by sinew.
Mary: I said sheep something!
pjasper: I did, I did.
Krissy: Yeah, okay, all right, Paul got that one.
Enrique: What?
pjasper: Wait, is that the definition of sinew?
Enrique: What?
pjasper: I use sinew.
Enrique: No, sinew is muscle.
Krissy: I don't know. it's Is it muscle?
pjasper: Is it?
Enrique: Yeah. Yeah.
Krissy: It's gut.
Enrique: You don't describe somebody's gut as sinewy.
Krissy: It's intestine.
pjasper: No, Dick.
Enrique: Like.
pjasper: It's no, I just, I just,
Krissy: It's all stretchy and flexible.
Mary: I do!
Krissy: No, it's not muscle.
pjasper: wait i just looked it up you fucking charlatan it's a piece of tough fibrous tissue uniting muscle to bone or bone to bone a tendon or a ligament so i'm wrong anyway because i'm totally wrong but it's not muscle dick but okay let's
Enrique: Yeah.
Enrique: You know what neither of those things are?
Krissy: No, this is intestine.
Enrique: It's a gun.
Krissy: No, no, yeah that does not count.
Enrique: It's a sinewy gut that man has.
Krissy: Okay, all right, we got and we got another, what's this?
Enrique: Mary, oh I just want anybody watching the YouTube video right now should just see Mary's face because when we talk about Mario Kart and how she gets silent when she's really trying to win, this is exactly what's happening right now.
pjasper: Oh, I saw it before she just started smiling.
Mary: ah
Enrique: uh -huh uh -huh okay go ahead what's this a
pjasper: More, more, more.
Krissy: Okay, okay. What is this? It is an S -shaped tool with a clover on one end and a little spine on the other.
Enrique: butt plug
Mary: I don't know what kind of butt you're plugging, but I don't know.
pjasper: I would not want, I don't know.
Krissy: You don't know what this is?
pjasper: Nope.
Krissy: Mary, did you ever go in for an adjustment?
Mary: Uh, yes, but I never asked.
pjasper: What kind of adjustment Mary?
Krissy: Okay, this is a sound post setter.
Mary: Oh, interesting.
Krissy: so Inside violin, there's a little stick on the inside.
pjasper: oh
Krissy: so This reaches inside the F -holes and allows you to move it around.
Enrique: So it's not, so it's a violins butt plug.
Krissy: so One end, you stick it on there.
Enrique: Like I think I'm not that far off.
Krissy: it I mean, you have to look in the butt hole to adjust it.
pjasper: Fair.
pjasper: Fair.
Enrique: I feel like I get a quarter of a point for that.
pjasper: All right. No, you've you but you both failed that.
Krissy: No deal, no deal here.
pjasper: Kristin got the point. Wait, I want one more trivia. More trivia. Go.
Krissy: Okay, this is a process of elimination, or one of these answers is not the item. Which one of these things has not been found inside of an instrument?
Krissy: Rattle steak rattle, a tree air freshener, vomit, ashes from cremation,
Mary: No! but
Krissy: a used band -aid or dirty limericks.
Enrique: all of the above, they've all been found in an instrument.
pjasper: I think all, yeah.
Mary: Yeah.
Enrique: That's a trick question.
pjasper: It is.
Mary: Yeah, I think so too.
Enrique: Yup, yup, yup.
Mary: They're so specific!
pjasper: What?
Enrique: I can spot a trick question a mile away.
pjasper: A rattlesnake rattle?
Krissy: I have not personally pulled a used band -aid out of there, but I'm sure that some little elementary school kid has just plopped that in there.
Mary: Oh yeah, for sure.
pjasper: What was your, Kristen, what was your best thing you found inside of violin?
Krissy: Um, a bug, a spider, like a living spider.
Mary: Oh God.
Krissy: It was so gross. You looked in, okay, looked in the butthole and saw a spider.
pjasper: Did you did you like scream and throw oh My god who why
Enrique: that's Everybody's worst nightmare.
Krissy: I was like, okay, we're gonna put that down.
Mary: Oof. Oh, so interesting.
Krissy: But yeah, rattlesnake, plenty of rattlesnake rattles. It's a fiddle thing.
Enrique: It's a fiddle thing, like it just it changes.
Krissy: Yeah, it is a fiddle thing.
Mary: Like a, like a rhythmic thing?
Enrique: It changes the sound.
Krissy: I get buzzes.
Mary: Yeah.
Krissy: like Normally, buzzes are a bad thing, but fiddle players love them.
Mary: ah
Enrique: Hmm.
Enrique: Interesting.
pjasper: Oh, that makes sense.
Krissy: Anyways, they're weird. They're in there, but Ashes from the Cremation is definitely the weirdest.
pjasper: That was you.
Mary: That is weird.
Enrique: that's
Krissy: um That was one of my teachers had that happen.
Enrique: That's... Man.
Krissy: Hey, you've got a little dirt in here today. Oh, don't worry about that. It's just Frank.
pjasper: That's just Frank.
Enrique: Oh, that's... yeah Fucking Frank, always getting where he's not supposed to be.
Krissy: It's just Frank.
Mary: Oh my gosh, that's wild.
Krissy: Uh, yeah.
pjasper: Oh God. That's crazy.
Mary: Oh man.
pjasper: All right, well, we have more, but we're out of time.
Krissy: Okay.
pjasper: It's an hour and 10 minutes. We're gonna save the rest for the aftershow. So for those of you who would like to hear the aftershow, which we will discuss more trivia and probably more other dirty stuff, you can join us on...
Enrique: Definitely more butt plugs.
pjasper: you can you can join us on Patreon. All right, everyone. Well, with that, we hope you enjoyed today's episode on imposter syndrome and we will see you.
pjasper: Oh, wait. And thanks to Kristin for being our special guest.
Enrique: Yeah, I was gonna say, are we just gonna dip out?
Mary: yeah absolutely
Krissy: Thanks for having me.
pjasper: Yeah.
Enrique: Thanks, buddy.
pjasper: Sorry, sorry. Yeah, that was amazing, Kristin, to give us, yeah, you you are a super high achiever.
Enrique: It's a great episode.
pjasper: You were raised by super high achieving parents. You continue to be an expert in your field, and now you're helping others talk by talking about imposter syndrome.
Enrique: Mm -hmm.
pjasper: And God, the ice in your cup is so goddamn loud.
Mary: Yeah, absolutely.
Enrique: Every fucking time she picks up that cup, man. yeah
pjasper: All right, we're gonna quit so Kristin can have a drink of water in peace. All right, thanks everyone.
Enrique: Thanks, France.
Mary: Thank you!
pjasper: We'll see you next time.
Enrique: Stay weird.
Krissy: Thank you.
pjasper: Bye.
