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A Different Approach to Home Finance – a conversation with Nathan Turner
8 Plays1 day ago
Nathan Turner is the founder of Earnest Investing a company that invests in property.
Nathan identified that he liked the regular income that being a residential landlord provided. But that was the only aspect of being a landlord that he did like.
So, he hit on an approach that would provide the regular income, without the other responsibilities. In the process he created a different way for people to move from renting to owning their home.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Nathan explains to host Michael Millward what a mortgage note is and how he turned mortgage note trading into helping people to own their own homes.
Nathan explains how he manages the notes to help people to stay in their homes.
Nathan has set up a fund to help other people invest in mortgage notes.
This episode of The Independent Minds discusses financial investments. Before making any financial investments, it is a good idea to consult an independent financial advisor.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, and Nathan Turner at Abeceder.co.uk
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
Nathan is based in Calgary, Canada. With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel to Canada, and anywhere else at trade prices.
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Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact us using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We use Matchmaker.fm to connect with potential guests If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Independent Minds' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr.
00:00:36
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, all of them really.
00:00:51
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making podcasts so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr visit Zencaster, forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:01:07
Speaker
All the details are in the description.
Podcast's Thought-Provoking Goal
00:01:10
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:22
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Guest Introduction: Nathan Turner
00:01:30
Speaker
Today we are going to be discussing financial investments.
00:01:34
Speaker
Financial investments can increase in value, but they can also decrease in value. So before making any financial decisions about investments, you should always seek independent financial advice.
00:01:49
Speaker
Today, my guest, Independent Mind, who I met at Matchmaker.fm, is Nathan Turner, a mortgage note trader. Nathan is based in Calgary, Canada, the centre of the Canadian oil and gas industry and home to the world's famous rodeo.
00:02:08
Speaker
Calgary is not somewhere that i have ever visited. i have been invited and suggested that I should have a rodeo breakfast. If I do visit, I will be sure to plan my travel with the Ultimate Travel Club as that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases.
00:02:30
Speaker
There is a link and membership discount code in the description. Now that I have paid the mortgage, it is time to make a podcast.
Nathan's Professional Journey into Mortgage Note Trading
00:02:39
Speaker
Hello, Nathan.
00:02:40
Speaker
Hello, hello. How are you today? I'm doing very well, thank you. Thank you for very very much for having me on your podcast. Oh, it's great to have you here. I am intrigued as to what it is that you do and how you came to do it. So please could we start by you' just explaining a little bit about your story before you became and mortgage note trader.
00:03:03
Speaker
Certainly, you bet. So ah yeah, my name is Nathan Turner. I live just outside of Calgary, Alberta, actually just west of Calgary. And that's important because that's just that much closer to the Rocky Mountains.
00:03:15
Speaker
Does that mean you're a cowboy? Have you got a big cowboy hat and a horse and stuff like that? I pretend from time to time. I do have boots, I do have a hat. I don't wear them all the time, but when it's appropriate, I'll don those and fit in with the craft. Good stuff. I'm going to search the internet for pictures now, but I interrupt you because it's so important to know that you are a genuine type Calgary cowboy.
00:03:39
Speaker
But what tell us about the history that that led to you becoming a mortgage note trader. Well, the history goes back. Yeah, I think you have to go back as far as about 2005 or 2006. two thousand and six And at the time we were living in Montreal and i had a chance conversation with somebody who mentioned that the housing market in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan was booming.
00:04:01
Speaker
At first, i i just kind of took note of that because i my dad is from Saskatchewan, from so from Saskatoon actually. And it's a pretty sleepy place.
00:04:13
Speaker
So I thought that was interesting. it Very much a farming community, grain and more grain and more grain. This is part of the middle part of Canada where the big fields full of but basically wheat, corn, this was of the flat plains of Canada. it is i am I'm not even exaggerating. It is so flat and so straight on the highway.
00:04:37
Speaker
ah Years ago when my wife and I were driving through, you could let go of the steering wheel and the ruts on the road would keep you going
Impact of 2008 Financial Crisis
00:04:44
Speaker
straight. As someone who lives in the UK, in that part of the world, that's where cruise control was invented for exactly rather than the twisty, turny lanes that we have here and in my part of Yorkshire yeah at least. But please don't try taking your hands off the steering wheel the car.
00:05:02
Speaker
you know Always pay attention when you are driving. not advisable, but it was a fun experiment.
00:05:09
Speaker
I'm sure you were very conscious of all the risks. But what happened after that conversation then? So I wanted to check it out. i knew some people that lived in Saskatoon. I gave them a call and I said, so how are things going in Saskatoon?
00:05:23
Speaker
And his response was, you mean Saskaboom? I thought, really? Really? Isn't that interesting? It's says's barely a city of about 200,000 people right in the middle of the prairies.
00:05:35
Speaker
And so I was intrigued and interested and got into doing some more research. And long story short, i ended up doing some fix and flip real estate there where I would buy a house, fix it up and then sell it for a profit.
00:05:50
Speaker
I did that about half a dozen times i've over about two years or so. Great fun. I really enjoyed it. And then something happened where We got into 2007, 2008, and I had one property left. I could tell, i could just kind of feel it. Something was going to change. Something was going to shift.
00:06:08
Speaker
So I was in a hurry to get rid of this one house. And unfortunately, it didn't sell. So I did what I thought you would do in that situation. And I rented the house. And I had somebody living in the in the home and I ended up becoming a landlord.
00:06:23
Speaker
Figured out very quickly that I did really enjoy the cash flow that I got monthly, but I also figured out quickly that there was nothing else that I liked about being a landlord.
Transition to Mortgage Note Trading
00:06:35
Speaker
it was just It was a lot of work. Anytime somebody moved out, it was actually more economical for me to get back on an airplane with a suitcase full of tools go fix up the house myself rather than hire somebody locally to do that.
00:06:51
Speaker
Even with the plane ticket, it was still a better option. yeah And so it ended up being a lot of work. We had that property for oh two or three years ah before we were eventually able to resell it once the the market had rebounded a little bit.
00:07:06
Speaker
That was kind of my my beginnings in real estate. And like I say, i the things that I figured out is, ah yes, there's money to be made in real estate. There is such thing as monthly cash flow, but surely there's a better way to do it. Something where I'm not having to swing a hammer or something where I'm not having to have really the liability of owning a property.
00:07:25
Speaker
So fast forward a little bit, a friend of mine who is originally from Canada, he moved down to California, ran into a group of investors who had bought a portfolio of properties, about 60 properties, mostly centered in the US Midwest. So Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, mostly centered in those three states.
00:07:44
Speaker
He called me and said, here's the situation. These guys bought these properties. They were supposed to just sell them out to a different group. And that deal fell through.
00:07:55
Speaker
By now it's the fall of 2008 where everything just started going crazy. Our mandate was to see what we could do with these houses. So we had a power of attorney, which meant we could make decisions and sign papers, those kinds of things. And just that was it. No operating budget, no anything else.
00:08:14
Speaker
So we went to town and we thought we'd kind of invented seller financing. where that's a situation where you own the house and instead of the buyer going to the bank to get a loan, as the owner of the home, we can provide the financing where they can afford that house. So we set them up with a down payment, monthly payments.
00:08:33
Speaker
The beauty of it is that as homeowners, they are the ones that take care of the house. So fixing up the house, you know replacing the roof, replacing the toilet, all those kinds of things that I was doing as a landlord are no longer my responsibility.
00:08:48
Speaker
And instead, I got to enjoy all of the cash flow, the part that I liked, without any of the headaches, the part that I didn't like.
Understanding Mortgage Note Trading
00:08:56
Speaker
So that was my kind of introduction into note investing.
00:08:59
Speaker
And I thought it was just, what a great idea. It sounds very simple, very straightforward, but what is a mortgage note? Great question. So the mortgage note is, i mean, we're all actually familiar with this because if you go and buy your own home, you go into the bank, you have a conversation with them and they agree to lend you a certain amount of money and your house ends up being the collateral for this loan.
00:09:24
Speaker
And then you agree to repay the bank over a set amount of time at a certain interest rate, ah which works out to be a certain monthly payment. And that includes principal payment and interest payment with every payment, every monthly payment.
00:09:39
Speaker
Right. So essentially what happens is the bank ah will then decide at some point that they want to package up. Typically how it works is they'll package up this loan along with 100, 200 other loans and sell them.
00:09:55
Speaker
And the reason they do that is because they can then take the lump sum that they've received, use that to lend to other people and keep turning that same money around.
00:10:06
Speaker
Typically how it goes is the the banks will sell these large pools to a hedge fund. And then the hedge fund will look at that and say, okay, we want to keep This, this, and this, and we don't want to keep those other loans that for whatever reason don't fit in their box. Maybe it's a certain state they don't want to deal in. Maybe it's a certain balance that's too low.
00:10:26
Speaker
It could be a number of reasons when they decide they want to sell those. That's where I come in. So I ended up stepping into the role of a bank by taking on these monthly payments. That sounds like, well, for one thing, that you're taking on a huge responsibility stroke risk, that you've probably had to do all sorts of things to get registered registered in some sort of way.
00:10:48
Speaker
And you've probably had to do all sorts of examinations as well. How easy is it to become a mortgage note trader? Well, that's the interesting thing. You would think there would be all kinds of licensing or testing and things.
00:11:00
Speaker
There's actually not. ah In certain states, there are certain states where I have to register to become a debt collector. It's considered a debt even if it's on a mortgage or whatever.
00:11:12
Speaker
Other states don't. I typically tend to lean towards the states that do not require that debtck foot debt collector's license. What you're saying is that the regulation of buying a loan and then collecting the but the repayments on that loan, it's it's a fairly easy thing for you to do.
00:11:30
Speaker
But you've mentioned relatively yes that you are, well, we know that you're based in Calgary yes in Canada, but you are talking about doing business in selected states.
00:11:42
Speaker
So that means that you're trading, your business is in the United States.
Empathy in Investment Strategy
00:11:46
Speaker
That's right. So I live in Canada. I'm Canadian. I love my country. i love everything about it. I like paying taxes, I guess.
00:11:53
Speaker
But in the US, that's just where the opportunity is. So the right beautiful thing is these days we have technology. So all of my work really is done sitting in front of my computer and over the phone.
00:12:06
Speaker
That's how I get everything done. Brilliant. So do you buy this this debt in the form of a mortgage note. Yes. And then you are collecting the payment and interest on that while somebody else actually lives in the house and is responsible for the maintenance of the house.
00:12:24
Speaker
But if they if they fail to pay, then obviously you can foreclose on the loan. right What type of relationship do you have with the people who are living in the house? They're not your tenants, they're your borrowers, I suppose.
00:12:38
Speaker
What sort of relationship do you have with them? Yeah, they're the borrowers. In their eyes, I'm the bank. I'm not technically a bank, but I'm acting in that role. right The beautiful thing is because I'm not a bank, I am far more flexible.
00:12:52
Speaker
So if we have a situation where somebody is having troubles making payments for all kinds of different reasons, I can have a one-on-one conversation with them and we can determine together what will work.
00:13:03
Speaker
I read a book years ago, fellow in the United States that was buying unsecured debt. So we're talking about like credit card debt. And his approach was to talk to the people that owed the money. And the the line that he would use is The only thing we can't do is nothing.
00:13:19
Speaker
So in one way or another, something's going to happen. And in my case, it's either going to be a foreclosure or we're going to work something else out where foreclosure is not necessary. More than 95% of the time, we're able to work something else out.
00:13:33
Speaker
It's extremely rare that I actually foreclose on a person. If I do do a foreclosure, which certainly does happen, almost always it's on an empty property.
00:13:44
Speaker
And that's either because the homeowners abandoned the property or they've passed away and there's nobody there left to make any payments. almost always work something else out, adjust the payments, adjust the interest rate, the time due on the loan, all those kinds of different factors and come up with a amicable solution.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah. When you said you work in states where there isn't a lot of regulation of what you do, right it's you're not worried about people looking over your shoulder. You just don't want people looking over your shoulder type of thing. right Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you had to do registrations and things, that would put restrictions on how you are able to operate.
00:14:23
Speaker
And that might mean that you couldn't have these flexible type conversations with people. Yeah, or at the very least, it slows things down. When people are in trouble, that's the last thing that anybody wants is, well, we'll get back to you in a week or in a month or whatever. you know No, let's solve the problem now and we can all move on.
00:14:43
Speaker
So in many ways, he said, what you're doing is creating a different way of people being able to afford to buy their own home. Yeah. This is a little bit like peer-to-peer lending and peer-to-peer borrowing. Yes.
00:14:57
Speaker
But you've got structure around it. But because of you don't have a great infrastructure, you don't have to demand an amount of money from people. I get the feeling that what you're after is some sort of repayment of that loan.
00:15:11
Speaker
Exactly. It doesn't have to be ah big payment. it just You just have to know that over some period of time, that loan is going to be paid off. Right. And you know, it's interesting because anytime that I'm buying one of these loans is always at some kind of a discount.
00:15:27
Speaker
And so really it affords me some room to make some of the modifications or some of the adjustments that we can make to allow the people to afford a payment. And oftentimes it's temporary ah where maybe they've lost their job and they're looking for something else.
00:15:43
Speaker
That's fine. We can work with that. But as long as we've got open communication, like I say, we can do pretty much whatever works for them, whatever works for us. It's doable. All of us are only so many months away from not being able to pay our rent or our mortgage. It doesn't take very long once you've lost your job to find that if there's no money coming in, that things have to get cut back. And lots of people do find themselves in the situation of we've got to find somewhere else to live. Right.
00:16:10
Speaker
What you're saying is that if somebody is in a house that you hold the mortgage on and they're in that situation, the first thing they should do is get on the phone, get on the email and let you know what's happened.
00:16:23
Speaker
And then you work out a different arrangement with them as to how they're going to be able to maintain some sort of payment against the loan and their home is safe.
Nathan's Philosophical Motivation
00:16:35
Speaker
Right. And possibilities are almost endless. Oftentimes, so especially when I first started buying these loans, 2009, 2010, everything that I bought was what they call non-performing.
00:16:47
Speaker
So the person in the home was not making payments. And I was able to get it at really steep discounts back in those days. And again, what that allows me to do is have all kinds of flexibility.
00:16:59
Speaker
It was not uncommon where we'd run into a situation where the people were, you know, a year or two years behind in payments. So now they've got an arrears that they have to deal with.
00:17:10
Speaker
So if there's say a $5,000, you know, arrears bill hanging out there, then we can go and say, okay, well, From that $5,000, first of all, do you have $5,000 where you can just reinstate the loan?
00:17:24
Speaker
Typically the answer is no, but sometimes it was yes. And if they can just reinstate great, they're back on track. It's as if nothing happened and we can continue on as normal, or we can take that 5,000 and say, well, what can you pay?
00:17:37
Speaker
and Maybe they've got, you know, a 2000, $3,000 that they can put down towards the payment of that arrears. And then the balance can just be put back on the end of the loan. ah We may extend the the term of the loan and we can adjust the interest rate up or down. Their monthly payment, we can go up or down. I've done it all kinds of different directions, but we can be very, very flexible in figuring out what's going to be the best path going forward.
00:18:05
Speaker
When you say that you buy the loan at a discount, yes let's say for example, the loan is $100,000, you buy it at a discount. So the person is still going to pay back $100,000, but you've bought at a discount. So part of the profit that you get is the difference between the money that you paid for the loan and the money that the person is actually going to pay back. And that's how you make thee the business viable, I suppose. Right. That's exactly it. So let's say, for example, there's a hundred thousand dollar balance on the loan.
00:18:39
Speaker
ah The interest rate may be, oh, it's higher these days. So let's say seven or 8%. And then I would buy that loan at something like just for round numbers that we'll say, oh I'd buy that for somewhere around 75,000.
00:18:53
Speaker
And then because I bought it on sale, The interest rate that remains the same for the borrower, the person making the payment. But for me, my return on investment then jumps because I was able to buy it on sale because I was able to get that discount up front. So my return may be somewhere between 10 and 12 percent ah because of that discount that I got up front.
00:19:15
Speaker
The great thing is that you are making it possible for people to stay in their homes to find different ways to pay the mortgage and actually still be in their home and not go through that whole traumatic experience of eviction.
00:19:30
Speaker
I suppose there's a philosophy behind all of this. There was something that drove this that wasn't just about making money. You know, it's really interesting. and i mean, I think we've probably all been there at one point or another where things are tough, all a sudden things are tight.
00:19:44
Speaker
And we've certainly been there. So I can come from a point of empathy. And then as I got into the business, you know, I came from a real estate background.
Investment Fund Details
00:19:53
Speaker
So when I first started, i would actually target non-performing loans on vacant properties because in in my mind, I wanted the property.
00:20:03
Speaker
So I would target those ones because then we would do a foreclosure. I would take back the property and then resell it. And the further I went along, the more I realized that number one, I actually don't want to own the property.
00:20:17
Speaker
it's It's more work. It's more liability. And it's just not in many cases. I mean, it's worth it and as far as dollars and cents, but it's a lot of work. ah So I would rather target those with people still living in there, help them get back on their feet and making payments again.
00:20:33
Speaker
It actually, when you work out the numbers, if there's somebody living in there the choice between having them make payments and me taking back the property, it's actually more profitable for me to keep them in the house as well. So it's a double whammy. we get to help people and feel good about that.
00:20:51
Speaker
And that ends up being more profitable anyway, so that it's ah just a win-win all around. Yes, an empty property does not make any money. Exactly. You've got to have somebody either buying it and living in it or renting it and living in it to actually make some money out of property. yeah There is a website where you've explained all of this. And what is the web address of it? So the website is earnestinvesting.com.
00:21:16
Speaker
And just to give you a little preview on that, what I have done here just in the last year is put together an investment fund, ah which allows people to put money into the fund, get a return on their investment.
00:21:29
Speaker
And then I take those funds and go out and buy more of these mortgage notes. There's a spot there, it clicks over to one of my other websites called Diversified Mortgage Expo. where I hold an annual conference that people can come to and learn more about the business, network with other people that are already doing it.
00:21:49
Speaker
Ideally, the goal is we want people to come and meet people and be able to get some kind of a deal done before they go home. That's really the the ultimate goal. This is when we talk about at the beginning, you know if you if you're thinking about a financial investment, they can go up in value, they can go down in value, and the property market is as volatile as any other market.
00:22:09
Speaker
So before you make any investment, you should seek independent financial advice. But what you're saying is that you're taking the expertise that you have developed, the successes that you have achieved, and creating a way in which other people can invest in your activities in order to then with expand the business and help more people and also get a financial return on it as well. yeah And in order to help people understand what it's all about and make sure that they're making decisions
00:22:42
Speaker
I might be putting words in your mouth here, but make sure that they're making the right decision for them, whether it's right to invest or not, is that you hold an event where it's not salespeople, but it's the other investors talking to investors to find out more about it.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah, and I would want to have a conversation with anybody before you make any kind of decision because I want to make sure it's right for you. um I have turned away investors before. it's It has to be the right fit.
00:23:11
Speaker
ah That being said, i know you're in the UK and it is open to anybody all over the world. Anybody outside of the United States, um there's an extra form you have to fill out.
00:23:25
Speaker
But really, it's not much more complicated than that on my end, on your end, on how you're receiving the funds and those kinds of things. I'll let you figure that out. but But on my end, it's really ah quite a simple process.
00:23:37
Speaker
It's like we have a global audience, I suppose, because we're on the internet. But yeah this is an opportunity that anyone can take up if they if it's right for them. What does like the right investor look like? What type of person, what type of situation are they in?
00:23:53
Speaker
Well, first of all, so it's, ah if anybody wants to look it up, it's a fun read, but it's ah it's called the Regulation D-506C Fund.
00:24:05
Speaker
And that's based in the United States. One of the qualifications for the investors is you have to be considered an an accredited invest investor. So outside of North America, I'm not sure...
00:24:17
Speaker
what that means. But for North America, at least, that means that you as an individual, you make at least $200,000 a year, or with a spouse, you make $300,000 and or you have a net worth of over a million dollars outside of your primary residence.
00:24:35
Speaker
So that's the north north no the North American definition outside of North America. I'm not sure we'd have to do some homework and figure that out. Basically what you're saying is that for people to invest in this fund, it's not their primary investment.
00:24:49
Speaker
ah Either not their primary investment or they just have to have a high enough income to prove to the US government that you're money savvy, I suppose. like It's a a little bit arbitrary, that $200,000 number. but Like lots of investments, this is not the novice investor.
00:25:08
Speaker
It is for people with some experience of investing and a significant amount of funds behind them. rather than just right but the thing that i find i find so interesting about it and is that this is like i say it's almost like a ah different form of banking and investment it's a very supportive way of helping people to stay in houses because you're you're buying the the mortgages that are at the lower end of the market generally and yeah where somebody wants to sell them because they they think they the but people are not going to repay the whole loan and you then buy them and it's only worth buying those loans if you can find a way of ensuring that they are going to be paid off.
00:25:57
Speaker
Yes. I'm more than happy to go over, you know, any kind of details, any kind of questions that anybody has for sure. Do your own homework, make sure it's right for you. And then let's have a discussion before you make any final decisions.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, it is almost like an ethically based investment because you're helping people stay in their own homes. Right. sort of Nathan, thank you very much for explaining the business that you set up and and what it's hoping to achieve.
Conclusion and Investment Caution
00:26:23
Speaker
Certainly been a very interesting episode of The Independent Minds and got me thinking. Thank you very much. appreciate your time. um My pleasure. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Nathan Turner, a mortgage note trader.
00:26:43
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk and more about the fund which Nathan has set up at earnestinvesting.com. Another reminder that if you are considering any type of investment, that investments can increase in value, but they can also decrease in value. So before you make any investment in any type of fund, then you should seek independent financial advice.
00:27:13
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at Matchmaker for introducing me to Nathan. If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Nathan, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:27:29
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. If you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone in the United Kingdom, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:27:45
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means that you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:28:02
Speaker
The description also includes links to all of the websites that have been mentioned in this episode of the Independent Minds. So it is a description that is well worth reading.
00:28:14
Speaker
If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe.
00:28:27
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. All that remains for me to say is until the next episode of The Independent Minds, a big thank you for listening and goodbye.