Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Creating uRoutine – a conversation with co-founder Ed Johnson
31 Plays16 days ago
uRoutine is the productive social network.
uRoutine helps users to build routines that help them to achieve their objectives.
The social network aspect of uRoutine enables users to support, and hold each other accountable to each others routines.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, uRoutine co-founder Ed Johnson explains to host Michael Millward how valuable having a routine is to achieving a work focused objective or fulfilling a life style aspiration.
Ed explains what make uRoutine different from other social network platforms and how he will maintain that difference.
You will leave this podcast inspired to build routines into your life and work.
uRoutine is a free to use App that is available in the Apple App Store, the Google Play Store, and the uRoutine website
More information about Ed Johnsons and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere else at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and many more travel related purchases.
Fit For Work Look after your health and you will be fit for work.
It is important for entrepreneurs maintain good mental and physical health. That is why we recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test; a 39-health marker Annual Health Test conducted by an experienced phlebotomist Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A secure Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and lifestyle guidance
Visit York Test and use this discount code MIND25.
Three the network Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We use Matchmaker.fm to connect with potential guests If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where great guests and great hosts are matched and great podcasts are hatched. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Overview
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr, Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida.
Guest Introduction: Ed Johnson and the Power of Routines
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, my guest is Ed Johnson, the founder of YouRoutine, and he's going to be explaining to me the importance of having a routine and the role that other people can play in ensuring that we stick to our routine and achieve our objectives.
00:00:46
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that makes every stage of the podcast production process, including editing and distribution to all the platforms so easy.
00:01:04
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abbasida. All the details are in the description.
00:01:16
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Ed's Tech Journey and Industry Experience
00:01:28
Speaker
Very importantly, on the independent minds, we don't tell you what to think. But we do hope to make you think. Today, my guest independent mind is Ed Johnson, the founder of Uroutine.
00:01:43
Speaker
Ed is a tech entrepreneur who's worked in various different startups and also had a career with some of the big technology names as well. Ed is based in London, the capital of the United Kingdom.
00:01:57
Speaker
When I visit London, I always make sure that my travel arrangements are made through the Ultimate Travel Club, because that is where I get trade prices on trains, flights and hotels and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:10
Speaker
You can do the same thing by using the link in the description, which has a built-in discount. Now that I have paid the rent, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
00:02:22
Speaker
Hello, Ed. Hello, Michael. Thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure, but I should declare first of all, that I am an ambassador for you routine and I am really excited about being so, and I'm using you routine to help me with my work in the gym and also with some projects here at Abusida.
00:02:41
Speaker
This podcast has various different purposes. Personally is to make sure from the founder themselves, you, that I am using you routine. Try saying that quickly. Yeah.
00:02:56
Speaker
I am using you routine correctly. So that's your objective. Make sure I'm doing it all right today. Before you routine came along, what was Ed doing? and Oh, gosh, um all sorts of things, I suppose, in a sentence, Michael.
00:03:13
Speaker
I'm a school dropout. i think we'll start there. I taught myself web design and development when I was when I was at school. was always interested in technology and decided that university probably wasn't for me. So when I was in my yeah ah first year of A-levels, I tweeted the CEO of a digital marketing agency when Twitter was in its infancy and when indeed Twitter was was called Twitter, asking for a job. And he came back offering me an interview, not realizing I was 17 and then offered me a job.
00:03:43
Speaker
And it sort of went from there in terms of my my sort of career start. I thought those sorts of things were folklore, but that actually happened to you? That actually happened. And if you don't ask, you don't get. And I think, yeah, I wasn't expecting to really get a response, but I thought, well why not, you know, ask?
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, and it and it resulted in in my first job and I left school and moved to London to begin working for this digital marketing agency and and then then went from there to various other tech companies and then and sort of moved into the startup space in my early mid-20s.
00:04:17
Speaker
So from then till now, you've been involved in various different startups. You started off as an entrepreneur, I suppose, in many ways, because not many people would make that approach directly to the CEO of a company and get the response that you got. Although, i'm like i say, it's a thing of folklore, but it does work.
00:04:36
Speaker
Try it. yup Then you go through various different companies, including some very big names, it has to be said. Yes, Oracle and and Zoopla being the two, I suppose, biggest and best known brands. so I've worked at both of those organisations for about a year.
00:04:52
Speaker
um i was never fired, fortunately. I was acutely aware that the sort of way to climb the career ladder at the time and and possibly still now, potentially if I was advising my younger self, I'd have said, well, you know, stay put.
00:05:04
Speaker
ah for a bit longer, but I was sort of job hopping to just gain as much experience as I could in different parts of the tech sector and in digital marketing and for organizations of different sizes as well. I think that was really interesting for me. So Oracle, company with 130,000 employees.
00:05:21
Speaker
at the time, and then Zoopla, a company with about 500 to 1000 employees. so So, you know, two organisations of different sizes. The first company I'd worked at when I was 17 was about 25 people.
00:05:35
Speaker
So sort of seeing how different organisations of different sizes operate was really useful, I suppose, when I was in my teens and early twenties and taught me a lot that I that i sort of could take with me on my entrepreneurial journey.
00:05:49
Speaker
Cool.
Founding and Growing Pushfar
00:05:50
Speaker
And then you started setting up your own businesses as well. I did, yes. I've always been interested in business growth and the startup space. And when was in my early mid-20s, I think I was sort of 23, 24, I thought, well, it would be really useful to have a mentor to guide me through my career or at least guide me through the next stage of my career.
00:06:12
Speaker
So I went on to Google and I typed in how to find a mentor, half expecting to find a ah platform to connect mentors and mentees. There wasn't really anything out there. So I started to explore the space a bit further and decided that actually, why not try and build something to help people to connect with mentors?
00:06:31
Speaker
mentors and mentees and volunteer to share their experiences. started then having conversations with ah HR ah directors and heads of people and heads of learning and development about their own mentoring programs for their organizations.
00:06:45
Speaker
And time and time again, they were coming back saying, well, we're using Excel spreadsheets to match people together. So thought, right, well, there's definitely something I can do to fix this. And licensing that technology into organizations is is going to be the revenue stream.
00:06:59
Speaker
So I and my co-founder started to build Pushfar, built the business up to a really exciting level, worked on that over the last ah seven years, and then got to a point of exit and and left that business at the beginning of 2025. And then moved on to your routine.
Introducing YouRoutine: A New Social Network
00:07:19
Speaker
Exactly. And now, yeah.
00:07:21
Speaker
A new idea. New idea. and And that idea had been fizzing away, I suppose, As an idea, it probably began to to sort of come into come into mind three years ago, maybe four years ago. So it's been something I've been thinking about for a while. Yeah, it' seen as and soon as we exited from Pushvar, Your Routine was was ready to be something that we would work on and develop and yeah excited to be to be to be working on it now. Launching it now.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So what is Your Routine? We're calling it a productive social network. So it's sort of a first of its kind. and And what we're aiming to do is help people to achieve the things that they want to by really implementing two main tools. The first one, routines. We know that routines help people to achieve the things that they want to. It gives them structure. It gives a way in which they can achieve things.
00:08:16
Speaker
And the second part of it is accountability. So that's where the sort of social networking aspect comes in. The idea that if you tell yourself you're going to go for a run or learn French or read a book, then you might. But if you start telling other people you're going to, that accountability really does encourage you to do so.
00:08:34
Speaker
And so giving people a routine and creating that accountability around it is is what we do. And the fundamental part of your routine. Yes. I've read quite a lot where it tells me that if you write something down, you have an objective and you write it down, you're more likely to achieve it.
00:08:52
Speaker
But if you then tell someone one else that you've written it down, even your chances of achieving it are increased. because you've told someone else about it It's no longer your secret little ah objective. Absolutely.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I remember once working with a manager, we worked together in the UK, but we were part of a big North American organization. And every time we went to head office,
00:09:17
Speaker
he would make a point at some time or another during our visit, telling someone in a senior role within the organization what his objective was, what he wanted for from his career, what he wanted as the next career move.
00:09:32
Speaker
And it was like, I said, why are you doing that? He said, well, if they don't know what I want to achieve, there's no way in which they're going to help me to achieve it. Yeah, I mean, that that's completely, completely right. And and exactly the way that... so you know psychology behind accountability works if you there are loads of studies out there but essentially if you have an idea for something you're sort of five or ten percent likely to achieve it if you have an idea for something and you know when you're going to achieve it but as you put a deadline on it that increases the chances by another ten percent if you then work out exactly how you're going to do it so you come up with a plan around how you're going to get to the to the to the deadline and and do it in that time
00:10:12
Speaker
It adds another 10 or 15%. And then if you sort of add on accountability, it then increases it significantly more, taking the the chances of achieving something to up to kind 95%.
00:10:24
Speaker
So there are lots of things that lead up to that success, hope but we see the big one being accountability. And that accountability is where you start to use the sort of social network type of technology. Absolutely. We know that people love sharing on social media, but actually why not share things that are more productive and that going to help people? I think everybody talks about, oh, I'd love to do this or I'd love to do that. I'd love to get fitter. I'd love to eat more healthfully. I'd love to even things like I'd love to digitally detox. And people say, well, isn't that counterintuitive for for an app to encourage you to digitalitchly digitally detox?
00:11:00
Speaker
But actually, the way we're designing your routine is you only need to log on once a day for five or 10 minutes, tick off all the things you've done that day or said you want to do that day. And then you can switch the app off if you want to.
00:11:11
Speaker
So you can spend as little time as you want to on there. and And just knowing that your friends and family and if you want the wider world who are following you can see whether you're ticking things off or for missing what you've said you were going to do.
00:11:24
Speaker
That really does encourage and amplify the chances of delivering on. delivering on your promise and feeling like, oh, you know, people are people are able to see what I'm doing. i better i better deliver on that.
00:11:35
Speaker
But also not just about what you want to be doing, but you can see what other people are doing and gain inspiration from that as well. So actually, if you're part of a team and you want to, you know, you want to see what the top performing salesperson is doing, well, you can see their routine and you can start to emulate that as well.
00:11:53
Speaker
Or if you know that someone who's really good at self-discipline and really good at going to the gym you can see what their routine is and actually say well that's good i'm going to copy either the whole routine or elements of it so it's it's about gaining inspiration from others using the accountability to help you to achieve and also using that social networking side of things to to see where you could further improve and and better yourself When you're saying you can see what other people are doing, can you interact with other people as well? Could you ask them questions about how they do something? Absolutely.
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah, you can start a discussion. You can comment on the on the commitments themselves. So the commitments that form the routine or in the routine, there's a discussion space where you can start to build threads.
00:12:43
Speaker
You can ask questions like, or I'm really interested in ah writing a book, but I don't feel like I've got the self-discipline to do so. Any tips on how to get started? If it was a routine for novel writing, if it was a fitness for routine, you could ask, I'd really like to yeah have a six pack by the summer.
00:13:01
Speaker
um How do I go about doing that? What exercises should I be doing to do that? So you could start discussions around all manner of different things. If it was around healthy eating, you know any tips for food that I should be Yeah, I'm tempted to start a discussion around the six pack issue and how they can do any number of exercises for as long as you like.
00:13:22
Speaker
But if you go into the kitchen and start eating junk, you'll never get a six pack. Well, there you go And that may be something that in the discussions themselves, people start to start to comment on. So it's about sharing the knowledge that you have.
00:13:36
Speaker
In a very similar way to, I suppose, mentoring. you know You're sharing that knowledge and experience with others and and advising and guiding them um or gaining experience and insights from others.
00:13:46
Speaker
Yes. But I think also when you say comment, you'd be able to comment on what other people are posting. yes Social media has a reputation for attracting the people who want to comment in a negative way.
00:13:59
Speaker
And you hear all sorts of stories about comments that people have made about other people, which they've never met someone, but they think they're entitled to make a negative comment about them.
00:14:13
Speaker
Your routine is all about people actually sharing quite a lot of information about themselves in terms of like, These are my ambitions, my aspirations, my objectives. Doing that in a what is hopefully a constructive way in order to help them achieve those.
00:14:29
Speaker
But have to ask, how are you going to reduce or eliminate the negative aspects of things that people associate with social media?
Creating a Positive Space with YouRoutine
00:14:40
Speaker
How does your routine deal with that?
00:14:42
Speaker
Well, I think there are a couple of ways in which we we deal with that. The first one is the obvious thing. So the ability to have an account that's completely private. You can choose who you want to be able to follow you, who you want to be able to comment on your your activities.
00:14:57
Speaker
who you want to potentially block um or report. So we've obviously got the ability to block users and report users to us where we can then step in and review that and make sure it adheres to our code of conduct and terms of use.
00:15:11
Speaker
So all the things that any other social platform would would implement. But as you say, Michael, some of those things don't work, of course. um I think the really interesting thing about your routine is that actually this is all about taking action.
00:15:24
Speaker
So pretty quickly, you can go onto someone's profile and see what they're actually doing. And you can see whether they're serious or not. And you can see where they're taking action. So actually, that sense of taking it from passive social media, which I think is where we get into the the sense of doom scrolling and this idea that actually we're spending hours each day flicking through pointless, aimless videos that really are designed just to get you to keep watching.
00:15:52
Speaker
And we're actually taking it from that negative doom scrolling element of social media into something where it's active, engaging, where you're actually helping people to achieve what they want to.
00:16:04
Speaker
i I would hope that that A, attracts a better class of individual and B, encourages people to to really think about their own actions and what they're actually saying versus what they're doing as well. So it's the putting the the interaction into the context of everyone trying to be supportive of each other and that being the purpose of of why someone arrives at you routine.
00:16:30
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, i don't I don't think anyone is going to be on your routine if they haven't got goals or objectives that they want to achieve. um You could theoretically set up a profile and be you know passive on there.
00:16:42
Speaker
But I think pretty quickly, it's going to be very obvious that you're there for one reason and one reason alone. and e And that's where we would step in and and review and make sure that you're adhering to our code of conduct and you're motivating and supporting and helping people.
00:16:55
Speaker
um And if you're doing anything contrary to that, then then you're going to be kicked off.
00:17:01
Speaker
So that with of like a smile on your face and yet this real of like sinisterness behind it. You're not going to tolerate anyone really, are you, abusing the platform? No, we're absolutely not. That completely goes against what we're all about and what we're trying to help people to achieve and do. So...
00:17:19
Speaker
You're right, we're not going to tolerate that. And I think part of the issue that some platforms have, some social networks have, is that they're all about user numbers and they're all about getting those users to be on there for as long as possible.
00:17:32
Speaker
And actually, their profiting and advertising revenue is being generated as a result of those individuals stirring up a fierce debate where people are arguing with one another and it's talking about free speech and the great thing about you routine is we've got nothing to gain from anyone being negative on on new routine in a way that other social platforms may do the negativity would not fulfill your stated purpose and objective to the reason why you exist quite the opposite we need people to be positive to contribute in a positive way absolutely in order to fulfill
00:18:08
Speaker
the actual sort of declared values, aims, objectives of of the product itself. Absolutely. And it it goes back to that earlier point, why would someone want to be on there if they're not working towards bettering themselves?
00:18:20
Speaker
and And I've you know seen that from from first-hand experience with my previous company. People didn't just sign up. know We had 100,000 users and they all signed up because they were looking for a mentor or they had something to share with somebody else. So actually...
00:18:34
Speaker
It didn't attract that class of individual that's on the current social media dragging things down and posting negative comments, fortunately. ah People don't tend to gravitate towards that if if they've got something negative to post.
00:18:47
Speaker
They'll go somewhere else. It all sounds not idyllic, but it sounds very, very positive. But I'm also sort of wondering what sort of challenges will the people who are using your routine potentially encounter in the actual process of using it spelling out what you want to achieve and trying to formulate a routine that will help you to get there. It's it's never easy, is it?
00:19:12
Speaker
No, it's not. And I think what we need to do and and what we're working to develop is a way that people can can fail, quotes, and still feel motivated.
00:19:23
Speaker
But I think what's really interesting is is the difference between people relying on motivation to help them to achieve their goals and people relying on a structure and a routine and a system.
00:19:35
Speaker
Because if you rely on motivation, some days you'll wake up and you'll think, great, I'm motivated. And other days you'll wake up and you simply won't. Motivation wanes. And this is where I really see you routine stepping in because it's not a case of, well, I'm motivated to do it. It's a case of, well, I've got a routine. I've got that accountability and I am going to do it even though I don't feel like it.
00:19:55
Speaker
And So bridging the gap between those two and helping people to see that and use that system, I think is the first thing that we're aiming to do. but it will be a challenge. I know that you know some people will think, oh gosh, and they'll drop off.
00:20:09
Speaker
And so one of the main focuses for us, um at least for the first six months, but kind of indefinitely when you're running a business like this, is to make sure we're building a product that's constantly engaging users and wants and and makes them feel like they want to come back every day and they want to tick off, and they want to achieve what they're setting out to do.
The Importance of Routines in Life
00:20:31
Speaker
And that feeds back to what we talking about earlier, creating a supportive environment, helping people to feel like they're on their journey, and that they're able to deliver as a result of that.
00:20:42
Speaker
It's a bit like a lot of people... If they're not using a gym, they will leave the gym because it costs money. In the same way that if you're using your routine, which by the way is free, but if you're using your routine and you're getting value from it, then you're going to keep coming back. you're going to keep adding new goals in and new parts to your routine and new habits.
00:21:01
Speaker
And we need to make sure that we're building an experience that people love in order to do that. And I know from firsthand experience that that these things take time, so it's not going to be perfect.
00:21:12
Speaker
On day one, constantly learning from people using it and constantly seeing what's working and what we need to adjust and adapt in order for people to have the best experience possible when they're when they're working through their their daily lives and their routine and and hopefully helping them to to make the most of them. Yeah, sounds great. Well, obviously, I've decided to be an ambassador, so obviously I'm going to say that it's great.
00:21:35
Speaker
But I'm thinking about, apart from the people who might go on to try and be disruptive in the way that they would on some other social networks, the anti-social networks, do you think there's anyone else that should avoid using something like YouRoutine?
00:21:52
Speaker
I really don't. I think what's wonderful about something like YouRoutine is it's got such... wide reaching potential. I think that we grow up with a routine, you know, from from very early childhood, we have usually fixed bedtimes. And and if we don't have a routine at home, in our home life, then we probably do at school. We have a timetable, we have a routine, we have a structure.
00:22:16
Speaker
So we are used to a routine from a very young age. And then we reach adulthood. And we think that actually the fact that we don't have a routine and we can do whatever we like, should be celebrated and and is. i you know Most teenagers, ah children when they get to a certain age will sort of show off about the fact that they can go to bed whenever they like.
00:22:35
Speaker
And actually routines are often seen as negative. But they can help in so many different aspects of life. They can help you when you're a student. They can help give you a study routine where actually you've got those fixed times where you know you've got to be revising for exams or you know you've got to um put the work into your coursework or your college essays whatever it is in in school life.
00:23:00
Speaker
They can help with a work-life balance. I think a lot of people struggle with working remotely, knowing when to switch off, and they're them checking emails at 10 o'clock at night. And actually, if they had a good routine, they would know when they can you know pick up work and when they can switch off from work.
00:23:18
Speaker
I think it can help parents with parenting routines, particularly with things like the summer holidays, knowing how to entertain kids. or if you've got very young children, getting them into a good routine is talked about a lot by parents.
00:23:32
Speaker
There's no reason why your routine can help there. It can also help people who've recently retired and have had a structure and a bit of a routine in their working life. And suddenly they've got all this free time on their hands. Usually they've got things that they'd like to be doing, but don't really have the structure in place to do it. So actually, again, this is a really good way of of helping people who've recently retired to make the most of that free time that they've suddenly got.
00:23:56
Speaker
So really, it it can I see it as as having a positive impact and and an application for people in all walks of life, yeah of all of all ages as well. We get routines that are imposed by other people, i think is what you're saying.
00:24:10
Speaker
yeah It's either our parents, a school teacher, even at university, you have a routine, there is a lecture you must be in, there is a tutorial you must be in. If you're not in, if you don't submit the essays, the assignments, so by these particular dates, someone's going to have a conversation with you at some point.
00:24:24
Speaker
And then you reach a point where actually I'm not at work. You know, it's the weekend. And before you know where you are, it's Monday again. Or you don't have anything to actually make use of the time to get the, to squeeze the the most value out of the time that you have available. yeah If you set up a routine, you're going to get more out of it than if you just meander ah through the weekend.
00:24:51
Speaker
Completely. And I think if you look at the fact that time is the most precious resource available to us, you can't, you can never buy more Time time Time is what it is and that's what you've got. It's finite.
00:25:05
Speaker
And even the wealthiest people in the world, they have to focus on spending their time wisely. And the best way that you can do that is with a routine. That is true.
00:25:17
Speaker
Where can people get URoutine?
YouRoutine App and Health Recommendations
00:25:19
Speaker
So URoutine will be available on the App Store. So the Apple App Store and the Google Play Android App Store. and also at uroutine, so the letter U, routine.com.
00:25:29
Speaker
Brilliant. I'm already signed up though, aren't I? You are. I am. I am. And like you say, time is the only thing that you can't actually get more of.
00:25:40
Speaker
That's true of today as well. We've reached the end of our conversation, you know, Ed, but it has been very interesting. I really do ah hope that your routine is a great success. I look forward to finding out more about it and I will share with you how I use it on all of my various different platforms as well. We've already started, to be honest, before launch.
00:26:02
Speaker
But thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. I really do appreciate your time today, je Ed. It's been great fun. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. And in this episode of The Independent Minds, I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Ed Johnson from uroutine.com.
00:26:24
Speaker
You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. One of the most important routines to have is related to your health. and being healthy and means you can do more in other areas of life.
00:26:38
Speaker
And knowing the risks early is also very important. That is why we recommend the annual health test from York Test. York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers, including cholesterol, diabetes, various vitamins and organ functions, as well as a full blood count.
00:26:56
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS accredited CQC compliant laboratory.
00:27:10
Speaker
You can access easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure personal wellness hub account.
Podcast Conclusion and Call to Action
00:27:19
Speaker
There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:27:23
Speaker
I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Ed and I have enjoyed making it. Please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:27:34
Speaker
And to make sure that listening to The Independent Minds is part of your routine, subscribe as well, please. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:27:49
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening, and goodbye.