Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Casino Sales Master – a conversation with author Joseph Rockey
14 Plays3 days ago
Joseph Rockey is the author of Casino Sales Master and the founder of Elite Business Conversations.
Joe got his first job in sales at the age of 18. It was the start of an addiction to being paid for his results, instead of swapping time for money.
He believes that selling has been tarnished by people who attempt to force sales, and that the best deals for both buyers and sellers happen when they share a strong relationship.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Joe explains to host Michael Millward why he sees the casino as a pure selling environment and the ideal situation for sales people to learn how to build a relationship with a potential customer.
More information about Joe and Michael is available from Abeceder.co.uk
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
Joe is based in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania USA.
With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere in the world at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and so many more travel related purchases.
Fit For Work Look after your health and you will be fit for work.
We recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test; a 39-health marker Annual Health Test conducted by an experienced phlebotomist Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A secure Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and lifestyle guidance
Visit York Test and use this discount code MIND25.
Three the network Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We use Matchmaker.fm to connect with potential guests If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds and Host
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello, and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah.
Guest Introduction: Joe Rockey and Zencastr
00:00:27
Speaker
In this episode of The Independent Minds, my guest is Joe Rockey, the author of a new book, Casino Sales Master,
00:00:35
Speaker
So as the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all in one podcasting platform on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Google, and
Creating Content with Zencastr
00:00:53
Speaker
Amazon.
00:00:53
Speaker
Zencastr really makes creating content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
Joe Rockey's Sales Journey
00:01:08
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencastr is for creating podcasts, we should make one. In this episode of The Independent Minds, my guest is Joe Rockey from Elite Business Conversations.
00:01:24
Speaker
Joe is the author of a new book, Casino Sales Master, Proven Systems to Beat the Odds in Sales and Life. Hello, Joe. Hello. Well, thank you for having me I'm very excited to be on the Independent Minds.
00:01:38
Speaker
Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to this conversation. um You're based in Pittsburgh, aren't you? Yes, I am. Pittsburgh, PA, home of the Steelers and yeah all that great steel stuff do you see around the world.
00:01:51
Speaker
It started here. Let's go. Well, at least in our heads. I'm from Yorkshire. In our heads. I'm from Yorkshire and just down the road is a city called Sheffield, which is the the iron steel making capital of the world as far as Yorkshire people are concerned.
Launching and Managing Business Ventures
00:02:09
Speaker
But um ah if you would like to visit Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania,
00:02:15
Speaker
and assess for yourself Joe's claims about the steel industry there. You can make all of your travel arrangements using the Ultimate Travel Club. You'll get trade prices on flights, hotels, and all your other travel.
00:02:29
Speaker
um You'll find a link and membership in the description. So enjoy your travelings. But Joe, please can we start by you explaining a little bit about your backstory, which I think is quite unusual in many ways.
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, so when I was 18, I took my first ever sales job. And basically, with the exception of the required internships I had to do while I was at a university, they were all sales positions. And the reason was, is I got bit by commissioning lifestyle.
00:03:06
Speaker
Right. The knowledge that I was getting paid for the results that I produced just rang true to my heart. And when I went through living that and looking around at my friends that were doing essentially the time for money model, which the majority of the world is in.
00:03:26
Speaker
I love the freedom and the capabilities that came from it. And then you fast forward through life, because I had the ability to sell, which is the first line of every major financial piece, is how much did you sell? What is your income?
00:03:44
Speaker
Because I had that, I had a degree in accounting and a degree in finance. I essentially had everything that a business needed. And you fast forward to when I was 25, I launched my first business.
00:03:55
Speaker
That would have been in 2011. And here we are sitting here in 2024, 17 business
Shift from Aggressive to Relationship-Based Sales
00:04:03
Speaker
leaders. Granted, some of them I have sold or been bought out of.
00:04:06
Speaker
But... I have created 17 different entities, including Elite Business Conversations, the consulting firm. And I am just absolutely happy and glad that I got bitten by this commission-only bug because I think it's most liberating option that all of the free world has, the world of capitalism. So I think it's fantastic because it can take anyone, regardless of your starting point where you are right now,
00:04:32
Speaker
And it can give you more dollars in cent wealth than any other career path that is available to everyone. There is no climbing corporate ladders if you're selling.
00:04:43
Speaker
It's just how much can you sell and how much do I get paid? And the joy of it is when you're selling correctly, not the 1960s method, which we're all immersed in, but when you're actually selling correctly, which is what I teach,
00:04:56
Speaker
Anyone can do this because every single human being has the relationship skills required. Now, granted, there's a lot of teaching and honing of those skills, but we all start and possess them because we all have the ability how to create a relationship And then it's just how do we do it well consistently?
00:05:16
Speaker
And then what is the remaining part of the system that we make actual for our sales process? So that's that's really what's driven me here from 18 until now, just working and developing how to make better relationships, meaningful connections, because I do believe that sales will heal the world.
Sales and Corporate Success Insights
00:05:38
Speaker
And I want to be a part of that solution. That's great. When you mentioned the 1960s style approach of selling, you're talking there about the heavy handed salesperson, the person who is ah going to get out on the phone to a potential customer and not allow the call to end until they get ah yes.
00:05:57
Speaker
And if your customer puts the phone down, they will phone back again. It's the boiler house type of sales process. Once they've got your details, they're not going to let up until you finally decide you you are going to buy something type of approach. We've all um had those types of sales calls or the salesperson who won't leave you alone type of thing. And I agree with you. it is an antiquated approach in a world that is more relationship based now.
00:06:27
Speaker
That type of approach is not going to help many organizations be successful. But when you talk about relationships and the the development of relationships being key to selling and then sales will heal the world, remind me of the conversations that I've had in the past with Ben E. Heinemann, number two at GE to Jack Walsh.
00:06:55
Speaker
And he told me ah when he was talking to me about his book, that he started off as somebody who was quite radical, wanted to change the world.
Why 'Casino Sales Master'?
00:07:05
Speaker
And then one day he woke up and realized that the only way he was going to be able to change the world was by raising the money in order to change the world.
00:07:12
Speaker
at That meant embarking on a corporate career. And ah corporate career, although it was a lawyer, ah meant that organizations thrive by selling, and that's how they make their money.
00:07:24
Speaker
And that is key to the success of any business. But You've written a book that sort encapsulates your approach to selling and and selling and how that impacts life. And you can transfer the same approaches to selling to life in general, but you called it Casino Sales Master.
00:07:45
Speaker
It's an interesting title. So why call a book about sales Casino Sales Master? Yeah, so
Relationship-Building in Casino Sales
00:07:53
Speaker
every person out there listening already knows that the casino always wins.
00:07:58
Speaker
The house edge is real. You don't go to a casino to make money. Everybody knows that. Okay, so I took my sales system and I took it to the hardest environment I could find, which is that.
00:08:14
Speaker
you know You're supposed to walk out of here losing money. Every single game on that casino floor has a mathematical advantage to the casino.
00:08:25
Speaker
So therefore, you stay there long enough, you will lose if you're just playing by their game. What I realized very quickly, and this is why it works, is that most people don't want to just be treated like the same cog as everyone else. They actually want to have a relationship.
00:08:45
Speaker
But when you look at what the 1960s sales method has produced from a consumer standpoint is the notion that it's okay to lie to a salesperson because the salesperson is trying to use me.
00:09:01
Speaker
I don't want to be used. No person really wants to be used. So it's okay to lie to a salesperson. And then it is also okay to try to get the information I need because I did come to this car a lot because I want to figure out if i want to buy a car so I can probe and pry for information as consumer.
00:09:21
Speaker
But I don't need to be committal because if I become committal, I'm right in his trap of the salesperson beating me down and using me again. and then I can run away and disappear. And that essentially is the modern consumer's mindset.
00:09:38
Speaker
I lie, ah gather information, i don't commit, ah run away. We use different terms for it in different cultures, but that's basically it. And when you give a salesperson incorrect information, they're going to give you incorrect information in return.
00:09:54
Speaker
So you're actually damaging your own purchasing
Applying Sales Skills in Las Vegas
00:09:58
Speaker
process. But if you don't have, or if the salesperson doesn't help you to build a relationship that is trusting, you won't ask the right questions of that salesperson.
00:10:10
Speaker
but That's exactly it. You hit the word on the head as far as trusting in a relationship. The 1960s sales system at the end of the day is a bunch of scripts and attitudes, but there is no relationship in it.
00:10:25
Speaker
And think of this as when you were in high school and you saw a skeleton that was hanging in the room. Sure, it looked nice, but it was held together with all those pins. If those pins that were holding it there weren't there, the whole thing would fall on the ground.
00:10:40
Speaker
To make a skeleton a successful animated thing, it needs to have flesh. And if you want to build a successful sales life, a successful life period, you need to bring the flesh to the skeleton.
00:10:54
Speaker
In this case, that is your relationships and your relationship skills. So I took that notion that I bring so many elements of relationship in addition to the skeletal factor, because if you don't have a skeleton, you can't stand.
00:11:10
Speaker
I brought all of that together. I built my system and then I took it to test it in the hardest environment in the world when I had no personal resources. So I think that that's another element. I did this, my first business I created was a real estate business. Basically we bought properties, we fixed them up and then we sold them.
00:11:30
Speaker
So on paper, it sounds like a nice little streamlined process. The reality is until you get that buyer to pay you, you have a lot of money out the door.
00:11:41
Speaker
And in my case, I was stretched so thin, i only had $500 worth of cash in my pocket and virtually no credit. So I'm sitting there in Las Vegas. All of my friends have real jobs because we're out of college now.
00:11:57
Speaker
And they're going and buying all these tickets. And I realized I was going to run out of money in six and a half hours. So the reality was i better do something about this. And it's time to put my money where my mouth was. In this case, my biggest vacation was on the line.
00:12:12
Speaker
If I can't figure out who my ideal client should be. If I can't connect with them, if I can't create a win-win situation, and if I can't make them want to be a part of my world, none of this is going to
Trust and Relationship in Sales
00:12:23
Speaker
work.
00:12:23
Speaker
And ultimately, all four of those things are what you need in every sale to do it right. And that's what I was able to do. And then obviously be able to dive all the way down into the minute process.
00:12:35
Speaker
words I use, the way I carried myself, what I wore, and why I chose those specific things, I get in great detail of because that's that's part of life. and You need to know the the specifics, you know the small details.
00:12:49
Speaker
But that was the general gist of why I took it to Vegas. I wanted to test the hardest battlefield on earth. And also, kind of didn't have a choice. I had to succeed or I wasn't going to have a real vacation.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah, you'd be sitting in a room by yourself while somebody else. All the um salary guys would be out having a good time, but you'd be sitting in a room by yourself. The hardest sales environment in the world is a big claim to make, but I sort of like appreciate what the casino is about. The casino is about making it easy for people to spend money on gambling.
00:13:26
Speaker
And subconsciously or all consciously, that person knows that in the long run, the house is always going to win. Mm-hmm. How do you create the relationship with an organization or a customer who on the face of it, if you use the casino analogy, doesn't really care about you and doesn't want to have a relationship with you?
00:13:47
Speaker
That's 100% true. um The casino can just use you and spit you out. If there's no relationship, it's easier for them. yeah The starting point is all people need relationships. All people crave consistency and they crave positivity. Whether they recognize that consciously or not, they do.
00:14:04
Speaker
My point, and this is how i was going through how you find your ideal prospect, in the analogy of the casino was I had to be working with someone with an actual person.
00:14:15
Speaker
So no slot machines, no machines at all. It has to be an actual person involved because you can't really have a relationship with a robot.
00:14:26
Speaker
This is ultimately why people who are fearing AI taking over the world, you don't need to worry about it. You can't have a relationship with a robot. You can synthesize and trick yourself, but in the long run, you can't.
00:14:39
Speaker
In Vegas, it was who here is actually in control. And diving through that process of realizing that led me to, there's very few games in which the dealer has complete control going through that process.
00:14:55
Speaker
But it was more so the fact that from the dealer's perspective, they have a very inopportune situation for their career. You get a ton of turnover in dealers in Las Vegas and the kind of outline a couple quick reasons why that you may never have thought of is that in Las Vegas, dealers get paid the server's minimum wage because tips are part of their compensation.
00:15:20
Speaker
So on the surface, okay, you guys are be served tips. You can be charged that way. No harm, no foul. Until you throw in actual people's reactions and psyches, the people who are supposed to be tipping these dealers are losing money gambling.
00:15:39
Speaker
And all of us have an internal flight or fight mechanism. And when you see something get taken away from you, you are not naturally inclined to reward that person.
00:15:54
Speaker
In this case, via a tip. So the actual reality that these dealers live in is most of my income needs to come from tips, but By virtue of my job, I'm taking things from them so they don't want to give me tips.
00:16:13
Speaker
That's a starting spot that's bad. Yes. Part number two, the overall ethos of the casino, of just wanting to use and churn people, is not particularly warm, fuzzy, or good for your soul.
00:16:31
Speaker
And it is personified by the pit bosses. And they only get to those positions by exhibiting that they are 100% in the casino's interest of maximizing the return on the house, which typically means have your but your clients, the people who are paying you, the gamblers, be less aware of their situations.
00:16:56
Speaker
Well, the easiest way to do that is to get them drunk. Or if you're in a culture that lets them get high in other ways, that's the answer. So now, as the dealer, you are surrounded by people you are taking things from.
00:17:11
Speaker
They are now excited and drunk. You have to to deal with this being the only sober adult in the room. And they don't treat you well. Have you ever seen a mob of drunk people be awesome?
00:17:25
Speaker
I mean, seriously. No. That's the dealer's world every second of every day. So I brought humanity into the space in a very systematic way with a lot, a lot of science behind it.
00:17:40
Speaker
But that's what I did. And I essentially became the only candle in the darkness. They were able to see it and seeing how I stood out as a result of the way that I treated them.
00:17:52
Speaker
the way that I treated others, and in some cases, the way that I kept people they didn't want out of their lives by boxing drunk people away from the
Empathy and Customer Understanding in Sales
00:18:01
Speaker
table. When you look at that and you have turned yourself to an ally, well, now now you're playing a completely different game.
00:18:09
Speaker
Not to mention, because it's a systematic tipping system, they were actually getting compensated and compensated incredibly well to create a win-win situation. It just turned everything on its head.
00:18:22
Speaker
I could have been negative and related with the dealer on all of the horrible things about their job. They are in a sensory overloaded room their entire day.
00:18:35
Speaker
It numbing, literally, because your mind is getting overwhelmed by blinking lights and crazy bells, not to mention there's threats from drunk, angry people feet away from you.
00:18:49
Speaker
And it it's all it's a lie. And I could have come in and complained about that, complained about their boss and all that stuff. But you don't win in life or in sales by going to the negative. Go for the positive. Yeah, you got to go to the positive. and But what what you've described is a situation where lots of people will probably be able to relate to the ah dealer in the and the casino is perhaps so an extreme example of it. But what you're talking about is if you want to be able to sell to someone,
00:19:22
Speaker
You have to demonstrate that you you understand the situation that they are in. You have empathy for them. You need to demonstrate that you understand what it's like to walk in their shoes and to build an empathy with them, which shows that you are supporting of them and supporting of them before you support yourself.
00:19:43
Speaker
If you give someone a positive feed, you will get a positive reaction back. that That is exactly correct. yeah Positivity in any type of sales situation will result in positivity back. yeah the The dealer can't decide which cards you're going to be dealt or where the ball is going to drop or or anything like that. So and in in business, the person that you're talking to in the sales situation may have to go and talk to someone else before they can actually get approval to place the order.
00:20:16
Speaker
I'm going to push back a little bit on that. The dealer absolutely can control where the ball will drop. And not to get into all the science behind it, but it's the only element of control that the dealer has.
00:20:28
Speaker
I can make the people I don't like lose their money faster, which makes me a better employee, but more so I don't have to deal with a drunk mob across from me They absolutely learn how to make the ball drop where they want it to.
00:20:41
Speaker
You do the same repetitive task 40 hours a week. you're going to learn how to take your control into your hands. It's a natural human thing. And yes, the rookie ones who it's their first week, not really, but the ones that have been there a while, they absolutely can put the ball where they want.
00:20:59
Speaker
That's a hundred percent of fact. Right. They know where to put the ball so that it will drop in the right range of of boxes that they want. That's right. so they can get rid of people they don't want.
00:21:10
Speaker
It's a very interesting situation. I must admit, it is not an environment that I've ever been in. But I do see this relationship between the way in which you treat someone as a potential customer will impact how likely they are to become a customer and how likely they are to continue to remain a customer and increase the amount of money that they spend with you.
00:21:37
Speaker
And it is down to building that relationship with them to show that you understand the life that they are living, the issues, the challenges, the problems they have to address.
00:21:48
Speaker
And I can remember you know with the the the web shop that we were run, Workplace Learning Center, that we have sold things to people who have then contacted us to tell us that they really like what they bought.
00:22:04
Speaker
And it doesn't take long before you move from an internet-based um transaction relationship to one that is much more human-to-human telephone calls rather than emails, and you get to learn an awful lot about that person because you've demonstrated to them that you understand the issues that they have to address the issues they have to face, the problems that they have, and you've provided them with a solution which is based upon your understanding of the life that they have to lead.
00:22:43
Speaker
It's like so many of these things, it makes an awful lot of sense and you're thinking, well, obviously, obviously, but common sense is not that common.
00:22:56
Speaker
What you've talked about as well is having the structures and the the tools that you need plus the skills that you need in order to put all of this together. Because it's not just one element, it's putting ah whole range of things together to create the outcome that your customer needs.
00:23:19
Speaker
not the outcome that you
Legacy and Life Lessons Through Personal Messages
00:23:21
Speaker
necessarily need. Focus on their necessary outcome first and your outcome is more likely to follow as a result of that.
00:23:29
Speaker
we We all have been told or taught that writing things down in journaling in some systematic fashion is great for our minds.
00:23:40
Speaker
It clears out cobwebs of our thinking. But the problem is very few people actually do it. And they do it for a lot of reasons, but most of which is when we all get to a spot where we're okay and good, we don't do the exercise anymore.
00:23:58
Speaker
That doesn't make the exercise bad. And what I'm going to invite all of you to do, and this is something that after I say it, you're probably going to wish that it was done for you.
00:24:10
Speaker
And this is why I want to do you to do it for your kids or grandkids, or if not both. All of us have phones that have the capability of recording voice memos.
00:24:23
Speaker
And once a month, specifically directed to whoever that recipient is, your spouse, your child, your grandkid, tell them something that is incredibly important to them.
00:24:39
Speaker
Now, in my case, I'm doing it for my son and he's gonna get it when he leaves for college. So I am targeting having conversations with him that he can't comprehend now as an infant, but that will be meaningful to him as an adult.
00:24:58
Speaker
Why did dad choose to act this way? Why did I do this, that, or the other? And the interesting thing is when you seriously commit to doing this on a monthly basis or biweekly, depending upon your life, you will think about how you live your life on a subconscious level that goes beyond any other skill you have.
00:25:23
Speaker
And you will be sharing the life advice that you have accumulated with the future generations. Okay. So if you look back in your life, you might think of an argument or something you didn't like that happened with one of your parents. And you just wish you knew their side now that we're all adults.
00:25:44
Speaker
This is the type of thing to give an opportunity to. you know Why would we stand offish to that first guy you brought home? Well, because when you were 14, you don't know what the red flags are.
00:25:57
Speaker
I'm telling you this to you now as a young woman, here are the red flags I saw. Granted, I might be old school different than you, but this is what I was protecting you from. Or when you ask for this, that, or the other, this is why the answer was yes or no.
00:26:12
Speaker
It gives you all of the benefits you would from journaling, but because you're doing it for someone else, you actually will. And you will not just change your life. you will create a legacy of momentum for theirs and then their kids.
00:26:28
Speaker
So it's something that most people wish they had. you know I wish I could talk to my dad when he was 30. Well, the way that we can do that without time machines is when you're your age now, tell them stuff.
00:26:42
Speaker
tell Even if it's not even about yourself and your family situation, how do you feel about something that's happening in the world? How should we feel about that? How do we stand up or rally to situations we don't agree or disagree with?
00:26:57
Speaker
You know the local commissioner put a stop sign at the corner and now I hate my commute home. How do I deal with that annoying irritant every single time I get in the car?
00:27:08
Speaker
These are things that, again, we all deal with our lives. But how much do we wish that we had one of our parents or grandparents give us those answers of how they dealt with it?
00:27:21
Speaker
It doesn't mean you're going to be right. doesn't even mean your ideas are good. But it creates a connection and a legacy of yourself um that goes way deeper than whatever your Facebook page will be after you die.
00:27:33
Speaker
And it's just, like I said, it's an exercise that will change your life, change the future, and give so much meaning throughout it that you really won't ever be able to measure, but you certainly will create.
00:27:46
Speaker
very interesting. Thank you very much. Got me thinking a bit there.
Episode Conclusion and Listener Invitation
00:27:50
Speaker
um Thank you very much, Joe, for taking the time to meet with me today and for helping me to create what I think has been a very interesting episode of The Independent Minds.
00:27:59
Speaker
Thank you. Yes, I thank you for having me I greatly appreciate the opportunity to to share some stuff with your audience. Thank you. And thank you very much to you for listening. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Joe Rockey, from Elite Business Conversations and the author of Casino Sales Master, Proven Systems to Beat the Odds in Sales and Life.
00:28:28
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. um I must also remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Joe.
00:28:41
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Joe, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where great hosts like me and great guests like Joe are matched.
00:28:55
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. That description is going to be well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:29:10
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future editions, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think. We do hope to have made you think.
00:29:22
Speaker
Until the next step episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.