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Relationship First Selling – a conversation with David Eriksson
17 Plays15 days ago
David Eriksson is the founder of Eriscale a provider of relationship first outbound sales strategies.
As the founder of Eriscale, David Eriksson helps B2B service providers to increase their rate of growth by adopting a relationship first approach to sales.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, David explains to host Michael Millward the four stages of the Relationship First approach to selling.
David and Michael discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the approach and explore what makes a business ready to adopt Relationship First Selling.
You have probably heard the expression, people buy people, because they want a relationship with the people who represent the companies, they do business with.
You will leave this episode knowing that Relationship First selling is the way to enable people to buy from you, instead of you selling to them.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, and David Eriksson at Abeceder.co.uk
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
When this episode of The Independent Minds was recorded, David and his family lived in Switzerland. David now lives in Dubai UAE. With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel to Switzerland, Dubai or anywhere else at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and so many more travel related purchases.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Zencastr as a Podcast Platform
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
00:00:35
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Google, YouTube Music.
00:00:49
Speaker
It really does make making content so easy.
Zencastr Offer Code
00:00:54
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr is it Zencaster, forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysseedah.
00:01:04
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:20
Speaker
As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Introducing David Erickson
00:01:27
Speaker
Today, my guest Independent Mind is David Erickson, founder of a relationship-based selling company called CTGP.
00:01:38
Speaker
We'll find out what CTGP stands for later. But David is originally from Sweden, but now lives in Switzerland. When I visit either Sweden or Switzerland, I make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I can access trade prices on hotels, flights and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:01
Speaker
There is a link in the description. now hello david hello michael great that you can join me today i'm aware that we are recording this just a few days before england beat switzerland in the euros 2024 so i hope you won't hold that against me i and will not because it won't happen
00:02:25
Speaker
i'm excited for that one i'm i'm um um I've only lived in Switzerland for two years, but in in this case, I'm 100% Swiss. Well, well it we'll forgive you for that. and forgive you for that How did you end up living in Switzerland? Give us a potted history of the of David
David's Journey to Switzerland
00:02:44
Speaker
Eriksson. Absolutely. Well, i'm I'm excited to be here, first of all, and share my experiences and, as you said, make make people think.
00:02:52
Speaker
The simple answer to why I'm in Switzerland is because I fell in love with um a woman and she was Swiss. And oh that's how it goes, right? and The slightly more complicated answer is I grew up in Sweden. First 20 years of my life was was just that, just in Sweden. um i got a job
Leaving a Sales Job for Values
00:03:15
Speaker
and...
00:03:15
Speaker
to this day the only employment I've ever had as a salesman to door. And it turns out I was very good at it. and I got ranked very high in Sweden just a few months into the job but and um therefore we started earning a lot. it was commission based door to door selling.
00:03:33
Speaker
And very quickly though figured out that that wasn't for me. and quit and despite kind of outearning both my parents and the surprise of my bosses and and friends at the time. But I quit because it just didn't align with who I wanted to become.
00:03:49
Speaker
And I felt that very, very strongly. And and i've I've never really had money as a driving factor in anything that I do, and but rather relationships as as the entire topic.
00:04:02
Speaker
Nonetheless, I quit and i thought i would go to college and I wanted to figure out like, no, that wasn't it either. So I quit college as well. And then I started my business and I started a coaching business and I went down that track and and really tried to figure out, okay, how the hell am I ah going to earn money to get by while basically living by i will never again do something that doesn't put my heart on fire.
00:04:27
Speaker
Selling wasn't it, not in that job at least. ah School wasn't it. and So I'm just going to do it my way. I'm going to live life on my terms.
From Sales to Digital Nomad
00:04:36
Speaker
That became the start of my my coaching journey, which has lasted for almost a decade now.
00:04:41
Speaker
And ah once I got some traction in it, I started traveling. So from 20 to 25, I was basically traveling full time. I was a digital nomad essentially without labeling it as such.
00:04:55
Speaker
I was in Dublin for a good few years working working remotely, of course, but also from a gym in Dublin. I then went to Bali, which is where I met my my now wife, and that is Swiss.
00:05:10
Speaker
And um that was during the Corona years. So very interesting time to to be in Bali. and And then we ah my my wife got pregnant and we decided to relocate to Switzerland for for parenting purposes, let's say.
Transition to Family Life
00:05:27
Speaker
And so, you know, big lifestyle change, as you can expect from from being a digital nomad and and kind of going wherever and not really um needing that much money as an early 20s single man and to, okay let's build a family.
00:05:46
Speaker
And and that's that's what I'm up to now. So it's been an interesting journey. um And basically where I'm at with my business is trying to incorporate all of these things, like kind of the freedom that I got from um an online business in the way that I approached it.
00:06:03
Speaker
Personal freedom, but also geographical freedom. Combining that with actually building something profound, something substantial, just like a family is, just as as raising children is.
Values and Business Model
00:06:14
Speaker
um And standing by the values that made me quit that job in the first place and and values that I want to to stand by and live by. You've decided not to go into the corporate world, worked out the values that you want to live by and then set up a business which enables you to do that and have the lifestyle that you want.
00:06:32
Speaker
And that business is CTGP. What does CTGP stand for?
CTGP's Mission
00:06:38
Speaker
Coaches and trainers growth partner. And so essentially what happened and i ah did a did it myself.
00:06:46
Speaker
I was online coaching and and over those five years, i grew my own business fairly nicely. i didn't really recognize that what I did was something people looked up to and and was fascinated by how I could kind of travel full time and learn work on my own terms, my own hours, and still learn enough to to facilitate that lifestyle.
00:07:08
Speaker
So it kind of just dawned on me that, oh, I should i should help other people do that. And I should more specifically help other coaches do that because those were most of the friends I had. Those are the people I resonate relate to with the most.
00:07:22
Speaker
And a lot of them are um are not living a life like that and their business isn't really facilitating that. and So that was the first step. And and that's when I went more in a business direction, let's say, of of trying to kind of reverse engineer what I had done and package that up so I could coach people to do the same.
Partnership Business Model
00:07:44
Speaker
And as that grew over the last now two to three years, it has become more of a partnership based model, hence the company name now of partnering up with people who are not necessarily and at at the super early stage, but need the support in in sales marketing to reach that next level and to to get the their business to the point of feeding their values, let's say, which very commonly is exactly that, and a balance of freedom and profit. Yeah. It's almost like somebody sets up a business to do something that though they enjoy, that they're passionate about.
00:08:22
Speaker
But in setting up a business, You also have to do the things that you may never have done before, things like selling, marketing. And yet you've gained that selling experience very early in your career, experience that you defined as being relationship-based.
Authentic Sales Methods
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:39
Speaker
and then have discovered what it is that you're passionate about which is the coaching and they very cleverly have sort of combined the two together to create i suppose not just a business but a a model that people who are coaches trainers i suppose professional services types people and organizations could use to actually grow their business absolutely and i'll add some context to my story there because what actually happened when i quit that sales job was I grew very reluctant and apprehensive to to the sales tactics that I saw people pull out.
00:09:16
Speaker
That was a big reason why i quit. It didn't make me feel authentic, even though I didn't do the worst things, let's say. You're associated with those people who do it because we are, I suppose, defined by the people that we hang out with. And if other people are doing things you're uncomfortable with,
00:09:36
Speaker
the people outside of the organization start to perceive your organization based upon what they see other people doing, not just what you're doing. Absolutely. and And that made me apprehensive towards sales in general, because that was my experience with salespeople, let's say.
00:09:52
Speaker
So for those five years of of kind of growing my own business, I did it. very far away from what I had then associated as as selling. You know, I did it by word of mouth. I did it by publishing and Instagram content mostly.
00:10:06
Speaker
And ah I let the kind of sales be a byproduct. And i was very much like an anti-sales approach in many ways. When things then kind of coincided with that realization of I want to build a family and it's time to also step into provider a provider role, that wasn't really sufficient.
00:10:23
Speaker
And that meant kind of embracing that discomfort of leaning into sales again and actually using the skillset that I did have and I do have, but not like I did it before, not like that company ah back in Sweden had me do it.
00:10:40
Speaker
and And that was a journey, but that was the problem and paradox that I kind of sold for myself, which is essentially what I help other companies solve
Relationship-first Sales Approach
00:10:52
Speaker
now. It's it's about finding that alignment with like,
00:10:55
Speaker
sales is not a contradiction whatsoever to your coaching or training service. It is actually very much the same, just different points of of the customer's journey.
00:11:07
Speaker
You can approach the sales process just as you would coach someone. It's about clear communication. It's very much built on the same principles. And that was my recognition and my kind of full circle of, of as you put it, incorporating my previous experience experiences into the business model I have today.
00:11:27
Speaker
So um yeah just get out of that context. So you've defined it as almost relationship first, and it's coaching as a sales technique, I suppose. What does relationship first mean?
00:11:41
Speaker
i like this question because it it forces me to think, right? And I did my best to try to summarize it. And i think it's the way i look at it is it's a lens to run things through.
00:11:51
Speaker
and The lens is, does this strengthen the relationship or not? Very, very simply. So this action I'm so about to take in in marketing or in sales, does this at least have the potential of strengthening the relationship with the human being that I am targeting, that I'm creating the LinkedIn post for, or that I'm sending the email to, or that I'm presenting my my ah proposal for on a call?
00:12:18
Speaker
right that Have I ran everything through? Will this strengthen the relationship or not? And let that kind of be the lens of of how i make decisions. So that's how I see the relationship first is my thinking, like my that I run things through the lens. If it qualifies that lens, we can proceed.
00:12:37
Speaker
If it does not have the potential to strengthen our relationship, then it's out, disqualified. must require you to actually understand the potential client a lot more than if you're simply going and telling them what you can do for them.
00:12:50
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly.
Business Model's Four Stages
00:12:51
Speaker
And also when you're looking at marketing strategies, can say cold email or LinkedIn outreach or content creation, all these marketing tools, does this strengthen the relationship or not?
00:13:02
Speaker
In many cases, it it won't. Therefore, isn't the right tool in and using my model or my my relationship first lens. So it's also kind of a way to make decisions and I kind of filter out like, okay, this isn't a strategy. it This isn't a tool for me, at least not at this time for this person or for this service. You mentioned your model, which has four stages.
00:13:24
Speaker
What are the four stages of the David Erickson model? One, enhanced value. Two, education-based marketing, three, social selling, and four, sales collaboration. Basically, my service delivery and how I work with clients, but it is also describing the the model and the steps people should aim to guide their prospects through in order to to set up a client relationship, aka sign the client getting paid, but also um maximize the chances of a successful client engagement. My understanding of what you just said is like the relationship that you build with the client is that's the three stages.
00:14:06
Speaker
And then the fourth stage is where you cement the relationship with an agreement that you will work together.
Understanding Client Needs
00:14:12
Speaker
But you are spending a lot of time understanding the potential client and providing them with information in various different formats on different platforms, which will inform them, educate them about what it is that you do and how that can be of benefit to them.
00:14:33
Speaker
So they're finding you in lots of different places. Yeah, yeah absolutely. I'll unpack each one briefly. so the the first step I mentioned there is enhanced value. That's basically you really understanding what it is that you do and how that can benefit a certain person, which then means you need to know what that certain person is. Who is it?
00:14:55
Speaker
What do they struggle with? that What do they value? Only then can you communicate clearly why your solution is a preferred solution. Therefore, my the the title of that step is Enhanced Value. it's It's about communicating what it is that you can do for them more clearly so that they perceive it as more valuable.
00:15:14
Speaker
yeah That's the four steps. That's a foundational piece to everything else. I'm sitting here nodding my head thinking that there may be 100,000 businesses that you could work with, but the to be successful in in it a sales process, you have to identify the 10 companies that will benefit from what you do.
00:15:34
Speaker
and by ah Doing that, you can focus and do a much higher quality of sales interaction from the get go. Absolutely. It's really about pinpointing who you are able to help the most, like your unique collection of experiences and expertise.
00:15:52
Speaker
Who does that serve the best? One, they're more likely to actually agree and perceive it as such when you present it to them. But it will also have a far greater outcome if things align so well with your experience and and their needs.
00:16:05
Speaker
Massive chunk of this game is is that. It's kind of a prerequisite of who is it I should be working with. Because that also aligns everything, like how you are going to market and sell to them.
00:16:17
Speaker
If you know who you're talking to, if you have a clear picture in your head, who it is you want to to attract. You're going to create a way more clear content, way more engaging content.
00:16:27
Speaker
The message going to be way more relatable. It really is a a foundational piece and where way more effort should be put. Let's just put it like that. yeah We're probably putting too much effort into the later stages of the sales process. yes Whereas if we identify and get to understand who our ideal customer is, we can improve the quality of our interactions with them from day one and actually be talking to fewer organizations because we've identified absolutely the organization that is going to most have to value what it is that we do.
00:17:02
Speaker
Bring but parallel to my door-to-door selling, right? where I usually use that as an example just to to make it make the point clear, where if you have a good offer, you could knock on someone's door and and it would work.
00:17:15
Speaker
It's like, is that the most scalable way? Like, no, you're going to be very limited in how many doors you can knock in in one day, but it would still work. And the proof is there for many businesses that but operate exactly like that.
00:17:27
Speaker
So feel like that's kind of good example where like you don't have to worry about the scalability quite yet or at all. You need to have a good offer, which means you need to clearly communicate the value that you can bring a specific person. okay What is the the second stage of the model?
00:17:41
Speaker
Second stage is education-based
Education-based Marketing
00:17:43
Speaker
marketing. So the way I look at this is this is sparking curiosity. and This is not about fully getting to know someone or or really nurturing them with value. It is just...
00:17:55
Speaker
making them aware of your existence, one, and making them a bit curious to to engage further. It's kind of one step at a time approach. People try to sell too early. They talk about the service too early and ah they jump ahead rather than just like first things first.
00:18:12
Speaker
Let's just make them a bit curious so that we can proceed, you know, so we can take a next step. Why education-based marketing is because it is providing ah little nugget of value, it's giving something and asking for permission to share that thing.
00:18:26
Speaker
that's That's my definition of of education-based marketing. Could, for example, be you make a 10-minute video breaking down a concept ah for ideal client profile would resonate with.
00:18:38
Speaker
And then you send people an email saying, hey, I put together this video. Do you mind if I share it? And of course, you would you would sell it in a bit more attractive language than that. But the principle is, ask for permission to share something you know to be valuable for them.
00:18:53
Speaker
In which case, the chances to say, yes please, I'm curious, I'll have a look, is way greater than if you try to put into an email why they should buy your service. it's It's really jumping ahead and it's not relationship first.
00:19:06
Speaker
So what this does is that you've got your foot in the door. you get You get to open a conversation that you can start building a relationship based on. That's the second step. So you're explaining to a potential client what it is that you do.
00:19:19
Speaker
I suspect that it's not so much of a sales process, but if they understand what it is that you do and the value that it adds to the business, they are driving a purchasing process rather than you driving sales process.
Building Relationships for Sales
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a good way of looking at it. It's not a sales process yet, right? We're purposely not doing that yet. We're just focusing on sparking their curiosity.
00:19:45
Speaker
This might look as connecting with them on LinkedIn or or sending them an email to get to us a yes, please share, or seeing them engage with some content. It's just a little bit, there's some interest here, there's some curiosity.
00:19:57
Speaker
And now we can build on that. We're now getting towards stage three of the model. what What's involved there? So this is social selling and this is relationship building. This is where where that process really starts.
00:20:08
Speaker
So now we're looking at creating content to really engage people, to make them get to know you, and to have them perceive you as an expert that really knows your stuff and and how they can help you.
00:20:20
Speaker
Probably even more importantly, it's engaging with them as human beings, talking to them. This is probably where you will schedule calls. You will do discoveries, you will you will connect as as humans.
00:20:31
Speaker
It's a good idea to exchange some messages on on LinkedIn, maybe send a few pieces of of content that isn't to drive a sales, isn't your sales letter, isn't your proposal, but it's something that you think they will find valuable.
00:20:46
Speaker
Relationship building stuff. And ironically, and and sometimes paradoxically, these are the best things to do to accelerate the sales process, but not if you make it solo with that intention.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yes. and So it's, it's sharing with the intention of sharing for the benefit of someone else, yeah not sharing with the intention that somebody is going to be buying as a result of reading what the reading or watching or listening to the content that I have created.
00:21:15
Speaker
It's not an advertisement ah such as marketing. And you do that through educating people. There's a very clear distinction. Isn't there really between editorial that it aims to educate and advertorial which aims to sell yep and that that all comes back to the entire lens relationship first where it it if it's still run through that lens like is this sending this random article that i found interesting and probably aligns with with this person is that going to build a relationship or not
00:21:48
Speaker
It probably will. It's a gesture, it's is there's some some reciprocity in there, and they might actually find it extremely valuable. Whereas if you don't have that lens, then you'll probably think about, okay, how can I get them on the next call? How can I convince them of my service, et cetera?
00:22:04
Speaker
So just referring back to why that the the entire lens relation first is important to me and for my clients to maintain throughout these four
Collaborative Sales Efforts
00:22:13
Speaker
steps. But the fourth step is where we're actually converting all of that relationship building into a sale. Exactly that. Fairly effortless.
00:22:21
Speaker
if If you maintain this lens and you've done this work, it is now about finding alignment to take a next step. It's about showcasing how your service is an ideal solution to their problems.
00:22:34
Speaker
If you've built a strong relationship with them, which you should have at this this point, You know their problems, you know what they're struggling with, and and you show that you understand them. Having permission to share your solution, I've never had someone at this stage say no to that.
00:22:50
Speaker
People are happy to to hear suggestions of how you can improve if you have built a strong relationship with them. you have all of this data of their unique problems set in their exact words for you to present a proposal and individualize that proposal and showcase where they can go, where they can be, the dream outcome that they can reach with your help.
00:23:13
Speaker
Therefore, I call it sales collaboration because it's really just about finding a win-win scenario. there's a value exchange involved in that, which means they pay you money for the service. But that's ah's kind of just obvious if we both agree that this is a win-win. Yes.
00:23:28
Speaker
I like the idea of what you said there, that they give you, subconsciously probably, but they give you what you need to put in the sales proposal because you've built this relationship. it's it's My summation is that you are confirming for them the decision that they've probably already made, that you are the right person, the right organization for them to contract with.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes that's where they need a little bit of push. And I think that's where people mistakenly have a negative association to persuasion, where salespeople are this manipulative people that try to, that's that's certainly the case in in many cases. Good sales is is help aligning.
00:24:12
Speaker
And sometimes that needs, you need a little bit of a kick in the butt. And just as you you would, when if you're coaching a client, they certainly need kicks in the butt recurrently, right? yeah It's not just going to magically happen, or not all of the time at least, where where someone just immediately agrees, so oh yeah, this is a win-win.
00:24:32
Speaker
and But if you did listen to them and if you did kind of depict back at them what they said, then you can clearly showcase like, hey, that is why this deliverable in my service is going to help you with that problem.
00:24:47
Speaker
It becomes a very collaborative, like, do you agree with that? and or Or what else can we do? And and you kind of collaborate together. until you see the same thing and you do sync up. And in one way, that is persuasion, sure.
00:24:59
Speaker
But it's coming from an entirely different point of view. Points of view and all that sort of thing. What are the things that someone needs to understand before they start this type of approach?
Long-term Sales Mindset
00:25:10
Speaker
That's a good question. I think people need to to recognize the necessity of a long-term mindset. It's going to be difficult to have this relationship first lens if you are occupied with with short-term profit too much.
00:25:25
Speaker
it'ss It's a bit of a paradox in my experience where if... The longer the time horizon you're able to to think in and be like, OK, even if nothing happens for two years other than I build very strong relationships with a lot of people, that's good.
00:25:40
Speaker
That's progress. I'm happy with that. If you can embrace that paradox is you'll probably get profits quicker than any anything else, really. Like that that will be the fastest way to it. But only if you fully kind of let go of it.
00:25:53
Speaker
That's a great our irony. So I would say if if if people are yet to fully embrace how powerful strong relationships with people is and look at that as the most important thing, regardless of anything else, like that is inherently valuable, think that's a prerequisite to really succeed with this.
Personal Relationships in Business
00:26:11
Speaker
That does not necessarily mean that it's a prerequisite to start. That's probably something that will happen along the way. And you kind of have to continuously reorient yourself to look more in that direction and kind of measure your progress in in relationships rather than revenue. It sounds to me as if...
00:26:27
Speaker
One things that you're doing is putting that old adage, people buy people. yeah You're taking that and providing some structure around that approach, you making sure that that people are buying people.
00:26:40
Speaker
Absolutely. and I think another way of of saying that is my belief here is not that the relationship first is is just like a ah preferred approach. way of doing business. i'm I'm more so making a statement that I think it is a fact that people buy from people.
00:26:57
Speaker
Relationship does come first. Whether you recognize it or not, like there's no way around the fact that you are going to sell to people. Like that that is just a fact. And then therefore how you treat people, how you perceive people, how you interact with people becomes the most relevant thing.
00:27:13
Speaker
So I'm really just trying to lean into what is already the case at Helping people embrace that. um And in the case of coaches, it's it's certainly not that they don't embrace the human first. That's why they are coaches.
00:27:27
Speaker
you It is more about seeing how that is actually exactly the same in a sales and marketing context and and embracing that and then applying these specific strategies to enhance that. Yes.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah. It's, you've got all the little cogs in my head turning around. It's been very, very interesting, David.
Episode Closing and Call to Action
00:27:46
Speaker
really do appreciate your time, but for the moment, thank you very much. Really learned a lot.
00:27:51
Speaker
Thank you. Pleasure being here. I much appreciate it and look forward to, to whatever follow-ups we might have. Yes. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, David Erickson, an expert in relationship-focused business development and sales.
00:28:10
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. If you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone in the United Kingdom, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:28:28
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to Buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:28:42
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:54
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.