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10,000 Ethical Millionaires – a conversation with Gal Ezra
19 Plays5 days ago
Gal Ezra is the founder of Guaranteed Prosperity.
It was an organisation which was inspired by the advice Gal received from his father when he found himself stranded in South Africa, unable to return home because of a visa mix up.
Gal needed money, but his father would not send it. Instead, Gal business received advice so that as his father said he could make his own money.
After building several profitable businesses Gal is now sharing his father’s advice with other business professionals. Gal plans that by sharing this advice he will be able to create 10,000 ethical millionaires
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Gal Ezra and host Michael Millward discuss what it means to run an ethical business.
They discuss what stops people from being successful and Gal proposes some radical ideas that will, initially have you screaming at your smart speaker!
Some of Gal’s ideas about what stops organisations and individuals fulfilling their potential will have you screaming at your smart speaker.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
Gal Ezra splits his time between Florida USA and Cape Town, South. With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere in the world at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and so many more travel related purchases.
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Being a Guest
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We use Matchmaker.fm to connect with potential guests If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencaster Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida.
Discussion on Ethical Success with Gal Ezra
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, I'm going to be finding out about ethical success from Gal Ezra, the founder of several successful businesses.
00:00:37
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Zencastr Platform Praise and Discount Code
00:00:44
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
00:00:55
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida. All the details are in the description.
00:01:08
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:20
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Introduction of Guest Gal Ezra
00:01:28
Speaker
to Today, my guest, Independent Mind, who I met at Matchmaker.fm, is Gal Ezra, the founder of several successful businesses ranging from event staging to property management to financial services.
00:01:42
Speaker
Gal is based in Tampa, Florida, in the United States, although today he's joining me from Cape Town in South Africa. I can't say I've visited Cape Town and Tampa is not part of Florida that I've ever visited.
00:01:57
Speaker
There are no rockets or roller coasters in that part of the Sunshine State.
Travel Discounts via Ultimate Travel Club
00:02:02
Speaker
If I do visit Tampa or indeed Cape Town, I will use my membership of the Ultimate Travel Club to access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains and so many other travel related purchases.
00:02:15
Speaker
You can access the same trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link in the description. Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
Gal Ezra's Mission for Ethical Millionaires
00:02:28
Speaker
Hello, Gal. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's a great pleasure. I'm really looking forward to finding out about what you've been doing in terms of business and also ethical business as well.
00:02:39
Speaker
And you're on a bit of a but of a mission to find and develop and help people become ethical millionaires. And you've set yourself a little bit of a target. Yes, 100%. I'm on a mission to create 10,000 ethical millionaires.
00:02:54
Speaker
And it's a big target, but an achievable one. And one that will happen through exponential growth. And it starts with the listener that's listening today. And I hope to give ah ton of value and actual actually actionable takeaways.
00:03:11
Speaker
Great. Well, hopefully it will start with the host as well. Yes, exactly. ah hundred percent. But you're you're joining us from Cape Town at the moment. Yes. I was actually born in Cape Town, South Africa, believe it or not. And I lived here until I was about seven years old, moved away to the States, moved back to Cape Town, lived here for many years and on back and forth between Cape Town and the US. s Bit of one of those digital no nomads then, I suppose.
00:03:38
Speaker
In a way, although that makes it sound a little too casual, but yes. Yeah, i know what I know what you mean. i know what you mean.
Gal Ezra's Business Beginnings in Cape Town
00:03:45
Speaker
Let's start, though, with a little bit of background as to your business career and how it all started.
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, so how it began was kind of a crazy story that led me originally to Cape Town. Because I was born here, I had a South African passport. I was living in the U.S., but always under my parents' visa.
00:04:02
Speaker
And when I was 19 years old, my parents got their visa renewed, And for whatever reason, the U.S. government didn't renew mine. I didn't do anything wrong. It was just i was 19 and all of a sudden I couldn't be under my parents' visa.
00:04:16
Speaker
I had to do it independently, but I couldn't. And so I was in a situation where my parents have a U.S. visa. I don't. So, oh my gosh, my whole life goes into this, like, what the heck, I can't be home because at the time the U.S. was home.
00:04:32
Speaker
And so my dad said, don't worry, go to South Africa where you have the passport, you'll make a visa request from there, five, 10 days and you'll be home. So I fly to Cape Town, South Africa and five, 10 days, nope, I got declined.
00:04:46
Speaker
So then the attorney said, okay, no worries. It'll be about a month. Well, a month became six months, became a year. Turns out three and a half years later is when I went home.
00:04:58
Speaker
And in that three and a half year period is when I started my first businesses. And that's kind of the whirlwind. So it started all in Cape Town, South Africa. At the beginning, it was just I was doing so acting gigs. I always had a passion for acting. So i was an actor. I made some money from that, did some other side jobs.
00:05:16
Speaker
But the first major thing that happened is when I started throwing very small get togethers that became house parties that and ended up becoming some of the biggest music festivals
Lessons in Independence from Gal's Father
00:05:28
Speaker
in the country.
00:05:29
Speaker
And we can talk more about that. But that's a quick, like one minute nutshell of how it all took off in a span of about two years. You make it sound very entrepreneurial. it It was.
00:05:40
Speaker
i think from what I've read in the information that's online about you, you're missing out on one important part that prompted your entrepreneurial journey to start. ah hu Yes, yes. and I think I know what you're talking about. I'll i'll let you open up to it.
00:05:55
Speaker
Well, no, i think I think it's cathartic for you to tell me a little bit about what what happened that made you think, I've got to go out and earn a living. Yeah, yeah. So what was happening is, it's thank you for yeah leading into it exactly.
00:06:09
Speaker
what What happened was i was in South Africa and I was in a very strange limbo. Like imagine you go to a country that you have no friends. You basically know almost no one. I mean, I had my grandparents here, luckily, but you know I had no real social connections.
00:06:24
Speaker
And you think you'll be here for a week. But then it ends up being a month, becomes two months, becomes four months. And you don't know when you get to actually go back home, back to your home base. You get put in this weird limbo.
00:06:37
Speaker
So I was in a very strange limbo. Like, what do I do? I can't really get a full-on job. I can't, like, put roots down because I'm just going to leave in um in a month, aren't I? So I ended up kind of, like, smearing my time. Like, I was gymming or I was partying or I was trying to, like,
00:06:53
Speaker
I don't know, meet people or whatever, but I wasn't really productive. I started doing a little bit of acting here and there, but bottom line, I was basically out of money, like completely broke.
00:07:07
Speaker
My family is successful. So my parents, so i went to my dad and I said, Hey, can you give me some money? And he basically said, no, uh, not giving you any money.
00:07:18
Speaker
I'll give you knowledge. And if you learn, You will be able to make as much money as you want, but I'm not going to give you money. And I was like, oh, my God. I was sure he was being so unreasonable. Like, look, I'm in this situation here, stuck outside the country in South Africa because of you guys not starting on my visa.
00:07:37
Speaker
And I had this whole, you know, excuses or excuse lorosis, as we call it. It's a really bad disease where all you can give is excuses. So I was sick with excuse lorosis until eventually I realized, okay, I need to learn.
00:07:50
Speaker
And if I learn and if I apply, I'll be able to actually get productive and build something proper.
Ethical Business Beyond Profit
00:07:58
Speaker
and And that's sort of what kicked me off into sorting things out and becoming independent completely at 19. Yeah.
00:08:08
Speaker
yeah I have this sort of image of you being there in the shop with your credit card and all of a sudden it being rejected. And then you're finding out that daddy's cut off your credit cards. It's a bit perfect scene for a movie.
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that would be a great scene for a movie. Exactly. Yeah, I don't know if it was quite that bad, but it was pretty close to it, we can say. Yeah, but he was being cruel to be kind in many ways.
00:08:31
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And we're extremely close. So it was never like, I was never like, i hate you. I'm rebellious. I'm upset. It was never, ever like that. But I was also like, what the heck? You know, like, I'm kind of being left high and dry here.
00:08:45
Speaker
But it was actually the biggest blessing in disguise. and really forced me to kind of grow up and and make something happen. And that became the basis of your ethical approach to running businesses.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah. So I think that's part of it. i The big thing, you know, when we say ethical, you know, people take that in different ways because some people think, oh, an ethical business is like, i don't know maybe one that like saves the oceans or and don't know, something like that, or, you know, sustainable. Sometimes people get the words confused.
00:09:14
Speaker
when When I say ethical, What I mean is that you do what is the greatest good at all times. So life is broken down into parts and without getting into them too much, the more parts that you positively affect, the more ethical that decision is.
00:09:34
Speaker
And many people can make money in ways that are not ethical, meaning they hurt more parts of life, but they maybe help some small parts of life. So They make me a lot of money, but they destroy other areas of life.
00:09:48
Speaker
That's not ethical. if it hurt If it helps just me, but not other parts of life. But if it helps me, and it helps others, and it helps different groups, and it helps more and more parts of life, it becomes more and more ethical.
00:10:02
Speaker
So when I say an ethical millionaire, and I'm on a mission to create 10,000 ethical millionaires, I mean people that make money by helping more and more and more parts of life.
00:10:13
Speaker
and By that, the byproduct is that they get paid. You get paid well, you get paid by how much you help. So that's really the mission is to create a massive impact of helping other people and more and more parts of life.
00:10:30
Speaker
What's the origins of that approach? Yeah, because anything else will lead to ultimate degradation. And so early on, I learned that and my dad taught me that and I just saw it in action.
00:10:42
Speaker
You know, you people see the like criminal that is glorified in the movies and they're driving in a Rolls Royce and they're living large and they buy mansions and it looks amazing, but they're unethical.
00:10:56
Speaker
But then you might think when you see that little glimpse of their life that that's a beautiful life. Why shouldn't I do some things that are a little bit unethical, cut a corner here and there? ah But what you don't see is that that criminal has much more of a span of time than the glimpse that you see.
00:11:15
Speaker
The glimpse that you see is maybe five years, 10 years, 20 years. But at the end, it always leads to massive disaster. It might take a year.
00:11:27
Speaker
It might take 10 years. It might take 30 years. But it ultimately, that story ultimately ends in catastrophic disaster. Not to mention that throughout that time, that criminal is miserable, worried,
00:11:41
Speaker
anxious and depressed. So it's not actually the way to live. It just looks glorified. Now, criminal is taking it to an extreme, but you see different people that are unethical in different parts of their life, whether it's in their relationships or the way they do business, and it seems like they succeed.
00:11:59
Speaker
But what you need to remember is that what you see that's a seeming success is a teeny glimpse. It's a tiny part of the timelines. compared to the entire picture, and you mustn't get fooled and think that that little moment is how it always is.
00:12:17
Speaker
The people that are really happy, thriving, expanding, taking in more and more parts of life, are those that do things the right way, which is often the longer way, but it's always the better way.
00:12:30
Speaker
Yes, makes me think about the the person who's who's worried about the knock on the door. Exactly. That's right. If you do things the right way, if you pay your bills, if you don't borrow money, you can't pay back. If you don't sell something that, as you know, doesn't work. Exactly.
00:12:48
Speaker
then you've not got to worry about someone phoning you up and complaining. So what you're talking about is not necessarily we're greener than any other company or we're more environmentally friendly or we've atoned for our connections to the slave trade. or rather What you're talking about is organizations today looking at what they do and trying to do it in a way which enhances the lives of their employees, enhances the lives of their customers, of their suppliers.
00:13:22
Speaker
And we're receiving an email or a telephone call from you because the way in which you operate is something that people welcome. 100% that's exactly right. That's exactly right.
00:13:32
Speaker
What sort of things do people do in order to make, to create this ethical way of doing
Understanding 'Fake Realities'
00:13:39
Speaker
business? And and what are you doing to help people to achieve this way of doing business?
00:13:46
Speaker
Yes. So the first thing that you need to know is that any part of life that isn't bringing you amazing expected results is an area that you have something that I call fake reality in.
00:14:00
Speaker
ah fake reality is a piece of information that you're 100% sure is right, but when you use it, it doesn't bring you the expected results. So it's something that you're sure is right, but every time you take it on, every time you apply it, every time you operate in that way,
00:14:17
Speaker
You don't get the expected results. And that means that you aren't actually going to grow and succeed. So what I do, if I had to summarize it to somebody, I would say what we do, what I do, is I specialize in finding people's fake realities across a variety of subjects. And how do you know if you have fake realities?
00:14:40
Speaker
Because if you're not getting the expected results, the results that you want, you're operating off of pieces of data that you're sure are right, but they're not. But because you're sure they're right, you don't see them.
00:14:53
Speaker
They're totally hidden from you. And you think it's true, but it isn't. And that's what I do is through a few different ways, and and we can talk about it, is handling those fake realities. And when you handle them, all of a sudden you start getting results.
00:15:09
Speaker
And that's the nutshell of how we how we do it Okay, let's talk about it. Yeah. let's Let's talk about it. Yeah, so let me let me first of all just give you, know, an example of a fake reality.
00:15:21
Speaker
There are many, almost everything that I see online, and almost every viral video that I see that's inspirational on social media, almost every piece of content that people somehow gravitate towards might have slivers of truth in it, but in actuality are riddled with fake realities, and it's why most people don't succeed.
00:15:41
Speaker
I'll give you one example. People say you live and learn. And there's this big thing about you live and learn. You live and learn is a massive fake reality. You don't live and learn.
00:15:54
Speaker
And I'll let the listener just have that s sink in for a second. You don't live and learn. How do I know? Because if you live and learn, it means that every person that's old should be extremely successful and extremely smart because they've lived and they must have learned So they must do very, very well.
00:16:15
Speaker
But when I look around at most people that are old, and by the way, old has nothing to do with age. I've seen some 28 year olds that are very old. ah But when I look at people that are old, they are more careful, more worried.
00:16:31
Speaker
They are more shut down. They're less willing. They don't take on as much. And at the same time, I know people that are 75 years old that are more alive than some 25-year-olds I know. you know most people Most people die around the age of 16, 17, 18 years old, and they only get buried when they're 80.
00:16:52
Speaker
But they've died long before. So when you die, it's not a physical thing. It's you are no longer actually communicating, expanding, and creating.
00:17:08
Speaker
So one example of a fake reality is you live and learn. When you say ah fake reality is people don't actually live and learn, but is it that people stop learning, decide to stop learning, or don't find the opportunities to learn, or they learn the wrong things?
Learning from Mistakes and True Understanding
00:17:26
Speaker
Yes. because I think there is an there is part of that fake reality which, yeah, I can understand. But is it that people switch themselves off to the learning opportunities that they can? Because that expression is very often used in situations where we've made a mistake and we've learnt from our or we're trying to learn from our mistake.
00:17:45
Speaker
But what you seem to be suggesting is that, actually, if we apply that that saying to life in general, one of things we have to realize or accept, acknowledge, select the word you want to use, is that we choose at some point consciously or unconsciously to stop learning, to stop developing, and then just coast through life.
00:18:07
Speaker
Yeah, so that's so that's a very smart question and distinction. And I'll answer that in two different parts. And I'm sure it's going to make your listeners think, which is, as you said the beginning of this podcast, that the idea is to make them think.
00:18:20
Speaker
So I'll give you two things. Number one, You don't learn from your mistakes. That's another one that most people say, I learn from my mistakes. And I know this is different.
00:18:32
Speaker
I know this is like hard to understand. And someone might be listening to this and say, oh, come on, what's this guy talking about? But you don't learn from your mistakes. And I'll give you something very interesting. Most people think, and by the way, why do you not learn from your mistakes? Because that means that every time people made mistakes, they should thrive more and more. Every time you go bankrupt,
00:18:53
Speaker
your next business should be a huge success because you learn from your mistakes. Or every time that you divorce, your next relationship should be much better. But most people get a divorce a second time.
00:19:04
Speaker
So I don't see that people learn from their mistakes. What i ah think we need to do is, this is the second part, is understand what the word learn means, number one.
00:19:16
Speaker
And before we get to that, I'll give you one more principle. Most people think that the way you fix a machine is by finding what's wrong with it. Are you with me? Like if if ah I have a machine that's broken, I need to find what's wrong with it. I go, oh, the battery is is flat.
00:19:33
Speaker
So this is what's wrong with it. I need to fix what's wrong with it. So that's how you fix machines, which is true. But then they go to people and they think that with people, if they want to help them or fix them, they need to also find what's wrong with them, just like a machine.
00:19:48
Speaker
So a parent will go to their child and tell them everything that's wrong with them. Or a boss will go to the the staff and tell them everything that's wrong with them. Or you'll tell yourself all the time what's wrong with you in an effort to improve you.
00:20:03
Speaker
It's the big disaster. The truth is that machines you fix by finding what's wrong with them. That's true. People you fix by finding what's right with them.
00:20:14
Speaker
Yes. You fix people by finding what's right
Enhancing Strengths in People
00:20:18
Speaker
with them. If you enhance what's right, if you enhance what's good, if you grow the good and the right, you'll see people will improve. If a parent tells their child what it was right with them, you'll see that that child will start to blossom.
00:20:32
Speaker
If a boss will show the the staff what they've done right, what they've done right, as much as possible, there will be an expansion with that person. But most people are experts at finding what's wrong with themselves as opposed to what's right with themselves.
00:20:48
Speaker
That is very true. Yes. That's very true. I think most people will be in the situation of, yeah, I can see what I've done wrong, but we don't learn how to celebrate our success. And listening to what you just said reminds me of something about our education system around the Western world.
00:21:05
Speaker
It's secondary school education, high school education, the education you do during your teens. The examinations that you sit are all about almost finding out what you don't know rather than what you can do.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you you can really see that most people focus on or totally forget to find what's right with them and they focus on what's wrong with them.
00:21:29
Speaker
And that leads, what you just said, leads me to the what I look at learning as. Most people think that learning is adding data, accumulating more data. Whereas what I say learning is, is removing fake realities. Learning is actually a process of removing information that is simply not true.
00:21:52
Speaker
And when you take away the data that's wrong, you'll find that you are actually a spiritual being that knows your engine is big enough. You just have hand brakes up and learning is actually a process of lowering the hand brakes and you discover, wow, I actually already, i already know. Yeah. That's what learning really is. It's removing of data, not adding data.
00:22:17
Speaker
So we take away the things, the negative things that we've learned in order to properly learn. 100%. And then I suppose we can add in more positives and be more conscious about the positives that we add in. Yeah, and 100%. And I'm not even meaning it in just a mental way, like ah like, oh, I think positive thoughts or you're operating off of negative ideas. I don't even even mean that.
00:22:39
Speaker
If I'm teaching you how to be a better salesman, or I'm teaching you marketing, I need to remove the nonsense data that you're operating on that's destroying your sales or destroying your marketing.
Removing Incorrect Data to Unlock Potential
00:22:52
Speaker
I need to take away the nonsense that you're using. If I take away the nonsense you're using, all of a sudden, ah, it becomes obvious what you need to do. Most people operate off of fake realities in marketing, fake realities in sales, fake realities in running, in families, in relationships, in management, in mindset, they have total fake realities and they can't discover them.
00:23:16
Speaker
So what I do is I handle that. I remove the fake realities and the results show up. I know you're very interested in in martial arts and I'm wondering about when you talk about the spiritual side of it, if there's a connection between what you've learned in terms of martial arts and the work in which you're doing on this project now.
00:23:37
Speaker
ah So I absolutely love martial arts, 100%. And it's a really beautiful art form. And the teachings there go extremely deep. A lot of what I teach these days and kind of apply, while it can be used within martial arts, I wouldn't say that the data I'm currently teaching is from martial arts.
00:23:55
Speaker
But I do find it an incredible art form. Like karate is a beautiful art form. I also love doing Krav Maga, which is an Israeli self-defense. ah maybe a little bit less of a martial art and more of a self-defense angle because it's much more kind of aggressive than learning karate as an example.
00:24:14
Speaker
But I love using my body as much as possible. I look at my body as a machine to be used, whereas most people look at their body as a kind of a machine that uses them.
00:24:27
Speaker
Most people are like the slaves to their body. the Their body is their master. And I look at it kind of as the other way around. So you're building ah more positive approach to using your body.
00:24:40
Speaker
And I suppose that and in terms of the martial arts and health and fitness, and then how that then, I suppose, if you have a healthy body, you're more likely to have a healthy mind and vice versa.
00:24:53
Speaker
And what you're talking about is creating mindsets, which will enable people to do more of the ethical work, to live an ethical ethical life.
00:25:04
Speaker
and run an ethical business having a positive impact on other people as well. 100%. And more so, bottom line brass tacks, to succeed in anything they touch.
00:25:15
Speaker
If you have a relationship with a girl, it should grow. It should succeed. It should flourish. You should grow. If you're starting a business, you should succeed. You should grow. You should make money. If you're trying to get healthy and you're not, you're struggling, well, you should be successful and healthy with your body.
00:25:31
Speaker
So everything should be one that you can get results. People think, ah, it's impossible to succeed in every part of life. No, it's very, very, very possible.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's really very interesting. And I'd encourage people to investigate more. Where can people find out more information?
Where to Find More About Gal Ezra
00:25:50
Speaker
Thank you very much. Yeah, so you can go to gprosperity.com. G stands for guaranteed And the name of our company is Guaranteed Prosperity. Everything we do is guaranteed.
00:26:02
Speaker
So it's gprosperity.com. If you want to connect with me, you can look me up. Gal, G-A-L-A Ezra, E-Z-R-A, Gal, A Ezra on all platforms.
00:26:13
Speaker
And I'm posting content all the time, tips, helpful information, lifestyle, things that will help anyone. That's great. Thank you very much. Ezra, really appreciate your help today in making such an interesting episode of The Independent Minds. Thank you very much.
00:26:29
Speaker
Thank you for having on. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with The Independent Mind, Gal Ezra, who is on a mission to create 10,000 ethical millionaires.
Episode Conclusion and Engagement Encouragement
00:26:43
Speaker
You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk.
00:26:48
Speaker
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The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home, your workplace or even your gym. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:27:30
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You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime via your secure personal wellness hub. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:27:43
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I must remember to thank matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Gal. If you're a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Gal, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:27:59
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There is a link and a membership discount code in the description. That description is well worth reading. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Gal and I have enjoyed making it.
00:28:13
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Please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:28:30
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Until the next episode of the Independent Minds Thank you for listening and goodbye