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Using Product Staircases in Marketing – a conversation with Waren Miles Pickup
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Warren Miles Pickup is a marketing expert working independently from British Columbia, Canada.
Since this episode of The Independent Minds was recorded Warren has rebranded his business as Marketing Motivators.
Warren left a successful career in financial services marketing to launch his independent business. His aim was to focus on using human psychology, and cognitive biases, to create marketing activities that influence how potential customers interact with the organisation, online.
Understanding how customers and potential customers interact digitally with an organisation is important says Warren, because customers are demanding hyper personalised interactions with their suppliers.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Warren explains to host Michael Millward how to use a Product Staircase of paid and unpaid products and services is the best way to build a relationship with a potential customer and enhance a relationship with an existing customer.
More information about Warren Miles Pickup and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
Introduction to Independent Minds and Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone.
00:00:24
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abysida. Today i will be learning about the product staircase from Warren Miles Pickup, who is the Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Operating Officer of three companies within the same group, Pixel True, Pixel Copy and Pixel Publishing.
Podcast Production and Episode Purpose
00:00:46
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
00:01:06
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr visit Zencaster, visit zencaster.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abusida. All the details are in the description.
00:01:19
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:31
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, as I said, my guest independent mind is Warren Miles Pickup, who is the Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Operating Officer of Pixel True, Pixel Copy and Pixel Publishing in Vancouver, Canada.
00:01:55
Speaker
I've been to Vancouver. It's a fantastic city. had so much fun and it's well worth returning to. When I do go again, i will use my membership of the Ultimate Travel Club to access trade prices on all my travel purchases, flights, hotels, trains, even package holidays.
00:02:15
Speaker
You can as well, if you're a member. So to make that possible, um included a link and a discount code in the description. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
Warren Miles Pickup's Background and Philosophy
00:02:28
Speaker
Hello, Warren. Hi, Michael. How are you? I'm extremely well, thank you very much. hope you are as well. I am. I'm having a wonderful day. i'm I'm extremely excited to be here talking to you today. Oh, we'll soon work that out. be
00:02:42
Speaker
I am also very interested and excited to have you here and talking about the product staircase and and learning something jokes apart. I do appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
00:02:52
Speaker
Please could we start by you explaining a little bit about your career to date and and what led you to do what you do now? Absolutely. So I spent a little over 15 years working in finance.
00:03:06
Speaker
I had worked with thousands of financial advisors to help them to speak with their clients, to inform their clients, to educate them, to grow their businesses. It was practice management, portfolio construction, all these different things.
00:03:21
Speaker
What I learned through that process of working in an incredibly saturated marketplace was that you need to help people to create trust with you and your authority by having having them do almost like microtransactions, these small commitments that lead them to going from just starting with you, understanding who you are, why they should trust you, all the way up to ah engaging with you on the highest ah possible level to get the most return on their investment in working with you.
00:03:57
Speaker
Through that experience, I sold about $2 billion dollars worth of product. About four years ago, I wound up leaving finance because I wanted to enter an industry that had a bit more openness, ah slightly less regulation in terms of what you can and cannot say.
00:04:14
Speaker
And one that allowed me to really utilize the creative interests that I
Product Staircase Concept in Marketing
00:04:19
Speaker
have. So wound up moving into graphic design and copywriting and self-publishing in order to help coaches, consultants, small businesses, all the way up to really large organizations like KPMG to utilize concepts like heuristics, cognitive biases, and and human psychology to influence the way that people engage with them from a digital perspective.
00:04:43
Speaker
so that we can take what has traditionally been face-to-face sales and marketing into a digital presence that actually influences and evokes the action that people need to take from the way that they engage with companies on a digital perspective.
00:04:59
Speaker
Through that, I came up with the concept of the product staircase, which is really meant to utilize the the concept of microtransactions or um small commitments of trust in order to to build that relationship to the point where people are constantly seeing higher and higher value with those organizations they're engaging with and are driven to move towards the the highest possible value engagement that they can.
00:05:24
Speaker
It sounds really interesting. I think it is, but I'm i am' really passionate about it. So that's that's probably why. That's why you decided to do it. you know We all have this, I want to make the world a better place sort of altruism aspect behind what we do, hopefully. But mine was was really driven by wanting to to take things a step further than what I was able to do within the financial industry.
00:05:49
Speaker
it's It's great to get that broad picture of the sort the career and what what's motivating you. And then when you say you came up with this idea, the product staircase, it's like, yep, I think we're getting to an idea of of what it actually means and what it actually involves. But in a nutshell, my understanding from what you've said so far is that it's the it's like a a staircase.
00:06:16
Speaker
and you start at the bottom and you work your way up to the top. yes And hopefully you won't meet any of the snakes that will take you back down again. He said with another metaphor, what I suppose you're talking about is having a way that enables any organization to identify how it adds value to the relationship that they have with their clients or customers.
00:06:42
Speaker
rather than it being haphazard, you put this staircase in place and you can see how the relationship with the client customer is developing.
00:06:53
Speaker
Exactly. but We're moving into this world of hyper-personalization and then that that's something that most consumers are demanding now. They want you to be addressing their personal problems and pain points rather than being fit into boxes where they're supposed to adjust to what their perceived group desires and demands.
00:07:16
Speaker
So by utilizing this concept of the product staircase, you're able to guide them through the engagement with your organization that fits with what it is that they particularly need, because you can utilize tools, whether it be email ah service providers or different types of funnels ah to guide them based on their interactions with your products and services. So if clicking on a particular social media post that is ah in recognition of a particular pain point for that ideal client profile, you know when you're setting them up in your email services email service provider that you want to tag them with that particular problem or pain point
00:07:58
Speaker
so that all of the education that you offer them, all of the different pieces within the staircase are geared towards solving that particular problem and leading them to ah getting the most return on their, whether it's time, money, resources, their investment with you, so that you can solve that problem, ah that specific problem for them.
00:08:18
Speaker
I've got so many questions based on what you've just said, where to start. Is there an element of the big brother about
Ethics and Technology in Client Interaction
00:08:26
Speaker
this? You're tracking your interactions with your clients so that then you can enhance your relationship with them.
00:08:34
Speaker
It's a great question. And and yes, there is. there's There's definitely an aspect of of big brother ah monitoring and reviewing the interactions that individuals have.
00:08:45
Speaker
um There's software that you can utilize to determine who comes onto your website, whether they click or not based on their IP addresses. um those sorts of things. ah We've moved away from utilizing that and have made it more engagement related.
00:09:00
Speaker
So in the event that somebody clicks or or specifically engages with a particular aspect, whether it's a link or ah a button or anything like that on on a website or on an email, it allows us to create tags and track their user profile so that we can ah personalize the experience that they have with a brand as much as possible.
00:09:21
Speaker
um So as much as it's big brother, it's really, it's big brother in a methodology less to control what they do and more to cater to what it is that they want to need.
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's Big Brother with a positive framework in order to support the person to find what it is that they need. You're covered by all the various different cookie regulations and making sure that people know what they're signing up into.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, whether it's GDPR or whether it's um the the Canadian SpamCon or anything like that, you know everything is covered under under privacy rules. Yeah, the reason why I ask is because i I just want to make it clear that this is something that is available, it's a product, it's a service, but it's also something that a customer can either opt in to say that they want or they can opt out of if they want to as well. That's correct.
00:10:12
Speaker
That's something that is a decision for each individual to make. But the basic logic of what you are doing is saying that we will interact with our clients online and based upon how they interact with us, we will adapt as if ah the computer was a human being.
00:10:32
Speaker
It will learn from their behavior, it will learn from their interactions in order to provide them with information that is going to be of more benefit to them because you're trying to deliver an individual focused response service rather than booking everyone together.
00:10:50
Speaker
Exactly. and And it's really built around the idea of offering them products in this um incremental increase in value, both to them and to the organization that's selling it.
00:11:04
Speaker
so that they're they're both receiving a mutual benefit, but the intention is always to offer a higher ah ROI to the customer than it is to the provider of that information.
00:11:14
Speaker
yeah ah By doing that, you are inherently driving them to come back to receive more value through future engagements. Yes, you're building a relationship. You can talk about CRM's customer relationship management systems, which are about the administration of the relationship.
00:11:34
Speaker
But what you seem to be talking about is not so much the administration of the relationship, but the development or evolution of the relationship, which I'm thinking is actually led by the customer.
00:11:52
Speaker
That's right.
Client Education and Engagement Strategies
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah. ah there is There is an aspect of guidance from the ah from the organization because in a lot of situations, they're going to have a deeper knowledge about the problem and solving that problem than the consumer because the consumer is coming to you.
00:12:09
Speaker
That's why the consumer has come to you for the answer to the question. Yeah, is is looking for that answer. So there is an aspect of, hey, you know you have this problem. Here's our authority on an information on how we would solve this problem.
00:12:22
Speaker
It's really based around the educational based sales ah concept that was popularized by Chet Holmes. So you you educate them on the problem that they're facing, you present them with you know what the potential solution may be, and then you position yourself as the the best positioned provider of that solution um so that they can then make an informed decision on whether they want to proceed or not.
00:12:45
Speaker
And the idea is to take them from a situation where they are looking to do it themselves. So they're exploring... whether it be the internet or a social media platform or anything like that for information about the problem that they want to solve themselves to a done with you.
00:13:01
Speaker
ah So they decide, Hey, I would like to engage you in assisting me to solve this problem to a done for you. And that's the, that's typically the highest ah ROI type of service that most organizations offer where they take all of the onus off of your plate as the consumer, and they solve the problem and then hand you back the solution.
00:13:20
Speaker
And so it's really about guiding people through that, but also offering them the opportunity to engage at the level that they're already at, the the position where they may want to step out of the funnel and they're they're satisfied with the return that they've received at that point.
00:13:35
Speaker
So it it gives them multiple mediums, multiple opportunities, and and multiple price points to be able to engage in your services to solve the problem based on ah the method that they're looking to solve it.
00:13:48
Speaker
When you were listing off there the various different things that the customer gets, I was also thinking that the customer remains in control. Yes. The customer is defining what the interaction that they're going to have with a supplier or potential supplier, and but the system helps them to maintain that and develop, evolve that relationship so that they get what they want more quickly in a more comprehensive way.
00:14:15
Speaker
Right. Learning, you see. You're catching on very quickly. ah Additionally, it it continues to offer them opportunities to engage in in different manners, depending on, you know, they may have a change in their situation.
00:14:29
Speaker
They might uncover an additional problem. They might determine that the methodology they were using before of DIY or or done with you may no longer serve their purposes. And it it guides them in a very direct fashion as to how to receive more and more value from the organization that's providing them with that information and solution.
00:14:51
Speaker
So this is a use of artificial intelligence. It doesn't necessarily have to be with with artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is certainly certainly making this more efficient, faster, and more personalized.
00:15:03
Speaker
But there are ways to build this without the use of of artificial intelligence. it's It's a matter of utilizing... ah triggers and tag. It takes a lot more work to build out the profile, ah building those pain points, building out the solutions, and then creating a ah visual identity and or visual plan as to how somebody is going to move forward based on how they engage with you.
00:15:28
Speaker
That takes a little bit more work. AI simplifies and and expedites the process of building these types of staircases. Okay. okay I'm going to have to ask about examples of where this has all worked in the real world.
Case Study: Florist's Application of Product Staircase
00:15:41
Speaker
And have you got examples where that's all happening?
00:15:45
Speaker
Yeah. So we we worked with a ah florist in Las Vegas. And what we did is we helped them to create um a system where they would have, as an example, um they'd have a post about the challenges that people face in getting their their flowers for their wedding. Whether it was you know getting them on time, whether it's selecting the right um the right ah variations of flowers, the the right mix of them, those sorts of things.
00:16:16
Speaker
And that would then get engagement. It would drive to a guide, some type of a lead magnet, um a ah document, to ah whether it's just five pages saying, here's some information about ah color theory in floral design.
00:16:32
Speaker
um Here's some information about um how to best ah prepare for receiving flowers and um in this type of ah an environment, how to keep your flowers fresh, whatever it may be.
00:16:45
Speaker
So it's it's answering that particular problem by engaging the user in um taking an additional step beyond just stopping the scroll. So social media, you know, you want to have ah a CTA that drives them to taking action. What is a CPA?
00:17:02
Speaker
ah Sorry, a CTA is a call to action. um So a statement that says, um get more in from get ah get access to our guide now, something like that. okay um it's It's what's meant to in ah evoke the emotion to drive them to take action.
00:17:20
Speaker
Right. Okay. We just like to get all of our acronyms explained. No, I appreciate it. It's it's a industry so necessary thing. yeah yeah Industry speak. But that's let's talk about this florist in Las Vegas and and wedding bouquets because obviously Las Vegas is one of the wedding capitals of the world.
00:17:37
Speaker
It's also very hot place in in lots of ways and lots of air conditioned buildings. And one of the things that it was interesting just from a florist perspective was having lived in places that are very hot and you buy flowers from a florist that is air conditioned, of the things you very much realize is that They're not going to be looking very good after you've taken them outside and then back into an air condition.
00:18:01
Speaker
They tend to wilt. I've had that experience happen to me. So what you're saying is that to the guide that the customer provided was sort of like preparing people for a wedding with flowers in Las Vegas and taking them through all the different stages to the point where You know, they've built a relationship with their client by demonstrating their respect and their trust and their willingness to share information that will lead the prospective client to understand more about what it is that they should buy to achieve their objectives, given the location that they're going to be in and the time of year.
00:18:44
Speaker
It's fairly difficult not then to buy from that organization, isn't it? Yeah, and but that's just the first step as well in the in the staircase. It establishes some authority, it establishes value, um and it and it starts the relationship. And and when that ah individual that that saw that post and engaged with it in order to get the guide, they've exchanged their contact information essentially as a um exchange of value to the organization for access to that guide that then allows the
00:19:16
Speaker
um the florist to ah send them an email that may say something along the lines of, um here's a video course ah for $9 on how to best implement the practices that you've seen in the guide.
00:19:33
Speaker
So you're taking them a step up from a a free solution to a low-cost, low-ticket paid solution. And by doing that, um once somebody has paid once, they're much more likely to continue to pay with you because you've established um a sequence of trusted transactions.
00:19:51
Speaker
And so then you could take them from the ah paid video course to a webinar or a workshop where they can get some more information.
Trust-Building Through Transactions
00:20:00
Speaker
You could do one on color theory where, as an example, you sit down with them.
00:20:05
Speaker
You've got a video recording you with a ah group of people that are looking to have their weddings coming up and you actually walk through and showcase you you know here's some different variations of of color theory when it comes to ah floral design.
00:20:20
Speaker
This is what you might want to select. um And each one is a slightly increased cost, so $9 to $47 or whatever it may be. um And you're driving them to higher and higher transactions with you, um ah eventually leading to this idea of we will do everything for you for your wedding.
00:20:40
Speaker
And as people... engage with it, and they're making these additional transactions, they've established that trust. and And that ah florist is now front of mind for everything that you do from a floral perspective, because they have showed you value and authority for their particular industry for solving that particular problem.
00:21:01
Speaker
There's an awful lot of psychology in this, isn't there? A huge amount. Yeah. As an organization, we really try to focus on the utilization of human psychology, um heuristics and cognitive biases when we're building anything.
00:21:14
Speaker
um It's great to be aesthetically pleasing as ah as a design agency or any type of organization. but you really need to understand how and why people make buying decisions so that you can you can make it easier for them to make the decision that is going to be in their best interest.
00:21:32
Speaker
One of the the challenges that a lot of businesses face is that making an investment to solve a problem may not necessarily fit that immediate gratification need that people have. And by offering these ah smaller investments, low barrier to entry type engagements with your organization, you make it really easy for them to access that authority and that value without it costing your organization a whole lot of money. You you can avoid these loss leaders and and that sort of thing by creating assets, digital assets that they can utilize to to increase the amount of value that they're receiving from your organization.
00:22:14
Speaker
it It seems almost like one of those really simple, straightforward ideas that somebody has in the bath, but it's, which is annoying that somebody else had the idea other than me.
Challenges and Psychological Insights in Marketing
00:22:28
Speaker
It is, it is one of those things that it, it, you know, you're sitting there and you're going, wow, this all just makes sense, but implementing it is the challenging part. You know, all of the, the backend, ensuring that all of your messaging is incredibly clear that you have identified and you've in a manner in which is digestible, informed your customer exactly what they should expect from the experience in dealing with your company. Right. That's the challenge. That's the challenge.
00:22:55
Speaker
What examples have you got of where hasn't the challenge hasn't been met quite as successfully as it could have been? Yeah, um that's a great question. And it is largely because the implementation falls short and people don't ah truly understand the pain points of their clients. You can build a wonderful staircase and ah and an incredible marketing funnel.
00:23:20
Speaker
But if you don't truly understand the pain points and and what drives action for your ideal client profile, you will miss and and they won't there won't be enough value for them to incentivize them to take action.
00:23:34
Speaker
You know, only about 3% of individuals are ready to buy a product or service right now. The the pain that they're ah that they're feeling is so extreme that it outweighs the pain of sitting on the fence and doing nothing.
00:23:50
Speaker
And so what you're trying to do with this process is ah give people an opportunity to get off the fence by creating incredibly low barrier to entry opportunities for them to make changes when they are afraid of change and that change is painful.
00:24:07
Speaker
um You're trying to push them to a point where ah they recognize the pain of staying still is greater than the pain of making change. You can talk about all sorts of technology and all sorts of different ways of using the technology.
00:24:23
Speaker
But at the end of the day, what this seems to be about, from my perspective at least, is this is about demonstrating to your customer, the or your potential customer at this point, that you actually understand them and the predicament that they're facing and you've got the things in place that will help them build a level of knowledge about the decisions that they are proposing to make and within that level of knowledge becomes confidence that they're going to make the right decision for them
00:25:03
Speaker
Exactly. While experiencing the level of service and professionalism that your organization provides at every level. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like something that is is well worth investigating. And I do appreciate your enthusiasm for it. And i appreciate, well, I do appreciate just how exciting it must be to be involved in something like this. And I'm grateful that you've come and talked to me about it It's really very interesting. Thank you very much.
00:25:34
Speaker
Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. I'm very, very passionate about this and I love to help people to understand it and to figure out how they can build it into their organizations. So I will share it. ah It's my soapbox.
00:25:46
Speaker
I love to stand on ah on a soapbox and scream about it at the top of my lungs. Okay. Well, I'm grateful that we've had the opportunity to do that today, but thank you very much. I look forward to the next time as well.
00:25:57
Speaker
Thank you. My pleasure.
Podcast Conclusion and Resources
00:26:01
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Warren Miles Pickup, who is the CMO and COO of Pixel True, Pixel Copy and Pixel Publishing in Vancouver, Canada.
00:26:19
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abusida.co.uk.
00:26:24
Speaker
The Zencaster system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you're listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and experience technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network work with unlimited data.
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So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There's a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
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00:27:48
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There is a link and a discount code in the description, which all in all means that the description is well worth reading. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Warren and I enjoyed making it.
00:28:05
Speaker
so please give it a like and download it. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, of please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:28:20
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening, and goodbye.