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The Commercial Advantages of Neurodiverse Employees - a conversation with Paul Hargreaves of Cotswold Fayre.
41 Plays11 days ago
Paul Hargreaves is the founder of certified B-Corp food wholesaler Cotswold Fayre, and restaurant Flourish.
He is also an award-winning business author of two books The Fourth Bottom Line and Forces for Good.
When Paul established Cotswold Fayre, and later his restaurant Flourish he committed to creating an inclusive employer that would welcome people to the team who might face challenges finding work.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Paul shares with host Michael Millward the lessons he learnt about how to create a commercial advantage from being an inclusive employer.
Paul explains the original catalyst for establishing a business, and how that business grew.
He details some of the challenges of employing a diverse workforce and especially people with a neuro diversity. As counter balance to those challenges Paul also shares the positive impact that working has on people and their families.
You will leave this podcast with an enthusiasm for investigating how your organisation might benefit from proactively recruiting a more diverse workforce.
More information about Paul Hargreaves and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.co.uk.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
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Cotswolds Fayre is based in the Cotswolds in the UK. With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel to the Cotwolds or anywhere else at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and so many more travel related purchases.
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
made on Zencastr.
Introduction to 'Independent Minds'
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida.
Interview with Paul Hargreaves
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, I'm going to be finding out from Paul Hargreaves, the founder of cotswoldfair.co.uk, how he turned employing neurodiverse people into a commercial advantage.
00:00:41
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Podcasting with Zencastr
00:00:48
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
00:01:01
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abbasida. All the details are in the description.
00:01:13
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:24
Speaker
As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Focus on Neurodiversity at Cotswold Fair
00:01:32
Speaker
Today, my guest Independent Mind is Paul Hargreaves, the founder of CotswoldFair.co.uk.
00:01:41
Speaker
Paul has made a business decision to make employing people who are described as neurodiverse, a focus of his employment strategy. The Cotswold Fair shop is called Flourish.
00:01:53
Speaker
There are two of them in the Cotswolds, a beautiful area of Southwest England, which is home to royalty and celebrities. If you'd like to visit the Cotswolds, I recommend that you join the Ultimate Travel Club so that you can take advantage of the trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, package holidays, and so many other travel related purchases that members have access to.
00:02:16
Speaker
You will find a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds. Hello, Paul.
00:02:27
Speaker
Hi, Michael. Good to be with you today.
Paul's Business Journey
00:02:30
Speaker
I'm really interested to find out about Cotswold Fair because, like, as I was telling you early on, I live in Yorkshire in the Yorkshire Dales and I'm sort of surrounded by farm shops and I think you're in quite a few of them. So Blacker House Farm Shop in Wakefield and ah Fodder in Harrogate and so many more. So i'm to the producer now.
00:02:48
Speaker
and Well, yeah, we're a wholesaler, so that's what we do. We buy from small artists and producers and supply lots of lovely food products, ambient, frozen and chilled to farm shops, delis, garden centres, food halls across the UK. And actually, I think there probably are a higher density of farm shops in Yorkshire than any other county in the UK. So you're living in and and a good place for good food.
00:03:17
Speaker
Well, we are very much into healthy living here in Yorkshire. And if you're interested in small producers, I'll i'll send you a jar of my homemade marmalade. see Well, if you can go into production, we could start selling it for you. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you.
Growth and Strategy of Cotswold Fair
00:03:33
Speaker
Thank you. But how did you end up as so like with Cotswold Fair? What's what's the career history?
00:03:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of people say this, but it is genuinely true in my case. ah It was a business that started by accident. um I was doing charity work in South East London in the inner city.
00:03:55
Speaker
ran out of money and needed to pay a few bills myself, actually. ah So put a few products from the Cotswolds in the back of my car and started supplying initially delis just within greater London and then moved to farm shops around the edge of London. This was very much an add-on to my main job, which was the the charity stuff, but it it happened to be at a time when People were buying better food in the UK. Delis were coming back to live. Farm shops, which hadn't really been a thing in the 80s and 90s, suddenly started being something that people were going to. And yeah, the business just emerged from that original need to make some money. And we had to ah had to turn it into a...
00:04:45
Speaker
well, after to stop it or turn it into a proper business, which they did in 1999. And that's when we started. and We really were in the right place at the right time. There was a,
00:04:57
Speaker
a growth of British speciality food a lot of retailers were having to buy it from individual producers with hundreds of white vans turning up at their shop which they didn't like um so they wanted someone to consolidate a load of lovely British products and you know make their life easier basically which is is what we're still doing today how many people do you employ now In the wholesale business, um we, well, we've actually, so for for about 16 years, we did all our own logistics.
Neurodiverse Hiring Commitment
00:05:31
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um
00:05:32
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And then we realized we were actually better at ah selling marketing products than than moving them around. So we outsourced the logistics. So we we we went um down at that point. So there's about 40 directly employed people who work for the wholesale business. There's about another 40 who work for the logistics company.
00:05:52
Speaker
And then Fairly recently, in 2021, we also started a retail and restaurant business as well. That's called Flourish. and We've got two sites now.
00:06:03
Speaker
Now, the retail and hospitality side does take a lot more people to run those kind of businesses. So that actually employs about 110. So I think we're about 154 people.
00:06:17
Speaker
How many of those people, what sort of percentage of those people would you say are neurodiverse? Well, so I don't know the exact figure because obviously we do serve, et cetera, some people prefer not to say, but it so it's about 10 in total.
00:06:37
Speaker
There are five that we have deliberately looked to employ because they are neurodiverse, and then there's about another five that ah just just happened to be that we didn't.
00:06:49
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actually know when we employed them that they were if that makes sense it does does very much so Why did you make the decision that you were going to proactively source candidates who are neurodiverse?
00:07:04
Speaker
There's number of reasons. I mean, when we initially, I say we, I did start with a business partner this business, but he only lasted two years. So that's the we. he was Yeah.
00:07:16
Speaker
Startup pains means no one really ends any money for a few years and he he got out of the kitchen. So, yeah. So ah the original intention of the business was to employ,
00:07:27
Speaker
people who might find it difficult to get employment. And of our first five employees back in 1999, there was one person who was recovering heroin i a recovering alcoholic, and someone had just come out of prison. So right at the start of the business, in our DNA, if you like, was we weren't just running a business to make money, but we were running a business to try and make a positive difference in the world. And over the years, in when when we run our own warehouse in particular, we did very much try and employ people who might be
00:08:06
Speaker
on the edge of you know the difficult to get a job type people. So that's kind of part of our DNA. what when but When we outsource the warehouse, it's become became a little more difficult to do that um just because we cut the number of employees.
Inspiration for Inclusivity
00:08:24
Speaker
So when we had the opportunity to open the retail side of the business, and I think it was about a year before we opened, I was in Jersey, which is a lovely place, another Lovely place to visit on your travels.
00:08:37
Speaker
And ah went to a cafe in St. Helier and had my lunch. And all the front of house people in this cafe, and I wish I could remember the name, I can't, but all the front of house people were Down syndrome.
00:08:54
Speaker
And it, well, honestly, it it was one of the most beautiful lunches I've ever had. um The service was superb. The smiles were amazing.
00:09:08
Speaker
And honestly, I was choked up while I was eating, had soup in a roll actually. and I was almost crying into my soup because it was just such a wonderful experience being served by these beautiful um Down syndrome people. So when we had an opportunity to run our own um hospitality business and and retail, this was very much front of mind and ah wanted to prioritize this as something we could do to to benefit the local community.
00:09:44
Speaker
There similar types of restaurants in Harrogate, at least Dr. Bernardo's type restaurants. And okay it's um it's just a restaurant. At the end of the day, it's just a restaurant.
00:09:57
Speaker
But you're doing some good by having a cup of coffee or your lunch there. But you very quickly, I think, you very, very, very quickly forget that the people that are yeah preparing the food, serving you, are in any way different to you.
00:10:12
Speaker
Because the interactions are just so warm, welcoming, friendly, positive. It's like just, like you say, a fantastic place to have a meal.
00:10:24
Speaker
Yeah, but that the the quality of service was was amazing. Yeah. I mean, we've both had those positive experiences in those types of environments and other
Challenges and Benefits of Neurodiversity
00:10:34
Speaker
environments. So why is it, you think, that individuals and families...
00:10:41
Speaker
thats so face so many challenges a family with someone who is neurodiverse so neurodiverse teenager leaving education going into employment why do parents families face so many worries challenges ah most um well don't know about me yeah probably is most um i don't i don't think enough businesses have seen the potential for having you but neurodiverse people within them. I think some perhaps might see it as, and maybe I did to start with, it as a good thing to do. But since we've been doing it, I've seen actually this isn't
00:11:19
Speaker
just a good thing to do. is that This is benefiting our business by having these people here in all sorts of reasons, because most businesses haven't seen this and probably the parents know that as well. They they would be worried um for their child. I mean, I've got a neurodiverse son. I've got four kids and one of them is on the autistic spectrum. He works for a national supermarket chain actually. But yeah, I mean, he's very good at what he does, but it took him a while to to find his little niche as it were. And, you know, i think it's wi any teenager or early twenties, it's a frightening thing to
00:12:05
Speaker
to go into their first job isn't it but even more so if um it's a yeah yeah it's a completely different environment when you think about it you've since the age of five up to about 16 17 18 or maybe even if you're leaving university and have not spent a full week in work then you are making a huge shift from the education environment into the work environment and I often say to managers who are taking on apprentices and school leavers is that remember this is the first time that that young person will have spoken to an adult and called them by their first name. Yes. Right? Every of the time it's like mom, dad, aunt, uncle, or sir, miss school, or this sort stuff.
00:12:48
Speaker
And all of a sudden, one day you go somewhere and an adult who's got power over you, right? Whether you're manager or the the person telling you what to do is saying, well, call me by my first name.
00:13:00
Speaker
That's a big, big step for a lot of youngsters. Yeah. So that's, you know, that's a so-called normal person. I don't like that word, but... then For anyone. It's a big, for anyone.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So 10x for someone who's neurodiverse because there's all sorts of, they're worried about how how will they be treated by other people in the workplace, how will the manager treat them?
00:13:23
Speaker
And, you know, it's bloody scary anyway, but even more scary if if you do have a child with neurodiversity. I suppose if you are an employer or a manager who has exposure to someone who is neurode neurodiverse,
00:13:38
Speaker
then it's easier for you. But there aren't enough, this may sound like a stupid thing to say, but there aren't really enough new ideas neurodiverse people to go around so that we've all got family contacts close contacts with someone who is neurodiverse.
00:13:55
Speaker
yeah It just isn't enough. And that creates part of the problem. and we A lot more people are neurodiverse than them we probably think. but's So we probably do, but we're not we probably haven't engaged with them at the level when we can understand better you know what makes them different and how they are different from us. I think that's probably more of the issue.
00:14:18
Speaker
yes i think i think you're right not everyone who is neuro neurodiverse is actually knows that they're neurodiverse themselves although awareness is in is improving all of the time and but even if you are um or if you have a neurodiversity There can be, because of the the label, there can be a reluctance to sort of get the support that is available to you because it gives you a label which then can make other aspects of life more difficult. And that's down to the expectations that people have of someone who's, that person is neurodiverse, that person has got an addiction issue, that person is mentally disabled in some ways.
00:15:00
Speaker
But there are so many people who are very successful and do that whilst managing neurodiversity yes and i think even those who are aware they're neurodiverse and many of them because of the external pressures that um of society spend their whole lives trying to cover up the fact they are and don't live their true self do they but i think um you know thank god Thank God it's being talked about more recently. So I think there is more transparency around than there was five years ago. i think it's more acceptable now to be neurodiverse. I think certain well-known ah celebrities have have helped with that. Entrepreneurs, which is well-known, many entrepreneurs are dyslexic um and adh d and
00:15:54
Speaker
It's an asset. yeah It's an asset when you're an entrepreneur. Yeah, absolutely. ah Yes. And that is but is the big thing for me. i think if more businesses saw the asset side of this and that actually...
00:16:10
Speaker
these people can do a better job than the other people that they have been employed to do that job. Again, needs to be the right role for the right person, etc.
00:16:21
Speaker
But the potential is huge. And we're missing the potential of having enough neurodiverse people within the workplace. So businesses are actually missing out by not seeing the opportunity here.
00:16:34
Speaker
This is true. couple of questions come out of that. The first one is, What do you do ah to Cotswold Fair to help you identify how someone with a neurodiversity will fit into ah particular role? How do you make sure you've got them in the right job?
00:16:53
Speaker
So we had the five that we've intentionally employed I mentioned earlier. um They came through a partnership with ah a charity in the Bristol area and we worked with um people from the charity to to help us you know position them in the right part of the business.
00:17:17
Speaker
um So that was that was incredibly helpful. And then when they started, someone from that organization. organization and I think they were there every every day initially and then less and less over time and after three months.
00:17:30
Speaker
every dance see We didn't see them again. Yeah, so it it it helped us... you know, with that very important initial period to make sure that everything was working well for boat for both sides, actually, but more more for them.
00:17:46
Speaker
um So that was whether we could have... yeah I think we possibly could do it now, but it was really helpful when we probably didn't know what we were doing to have that partnership relationship with the the with the charity.
00:18:02
Speaker
I suppose what you're saying is that as an employer, you don't have to think about doing this alone. There are organisations, charities, yeah absolutely that means yeah yeah that will provide you with the assistance and also, i suppose, help fund any adaptions that you need to put in place as well.
00:18:20
Speaker
There's always money available if you if you ask for it. It's just knowing where to ask it. And like you said, there are organisations that are crying out for businesses to to do this. So yes, if you're interested, do check them out.
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, and reasonable adjustments can be very basic things. I know clients that we've had that have gone down this route have found that, okay, we need this person that does a really good job, but the actual commuting during the height of the commuter, the rush hour, is a very stressful experience for him.
00:18:53
Speaker
So instead of starting at half past eight, starts at quarter past nine, and he can avoid the the main rush of the of the commute. So he's just that slight little adjustment means that it's possible for him to do a full-time job and be very happy in the job that he's doing. Yes. We're not talking about major um adjustments to accommodate someone who's got a recognizable condition in some way.
00:19:20
Speaker
No. i It's no different from adjusting to people who've got kids, is it? Just being flexible. That's how you actually got them in into the job. you know do You identify the right one. you actually The answer is you didn't. You you worked with organizations who were experts.
00:19:35
Speaker
who helped you identify the types of people that would fit into the types of jobs and then you're away. It's, not you know, that sort of thing. But was the recruitment process itself any different for them? Well, we we they were kind of hand-picked for us. So i i wasn't actually there during the interview stage, I don't know. But...
00:19:57
Speaker
um Yeah, i mean we it was and we we had a it was on a trial basis and and you know damn everyone completed the trial. Actually, of the original, <unk> there were only three and two two of those original people who started with us in June 21 are still there today. i mean ah plan I think the original plan was they this was a stepping stone into ah into other roles, but they liked being with us so much they've actually though she stayed all this time. so But one one did use us as a stepping stone and he went to get another job somewhere else. So yeah, happy either way, really. But right from the start, we've had someone in the business who has particularly had them as
00:20:50
Speaker
taken them under the wing and and has regular sessions with them to check they're happy, to check that we are making the adaptations for them and generally looking after them and making sure everything
Employee Retention and Workplace Impact
00:21:04
Speaker
works.
00:21:04
Speaker
couple of things from that is like the average length of time that someone spends in a job nowadays can be less than two years, less than 18 months, but you've had those people now for four years. Yeah, yeah.
00:21:17
Speaker
Well, I do, I haven't got any data to to prove this, but I suspect that people who are employing neurodiverse people, you know, well, I suspect their longevity is many times more than other people actually, because, you know, if they're happy and being looked after and doing a great job, which all ours are, then, you know, it's it's probably very stressful for them to start again somewhere else. So this is another advantage to the business, if you like, because you know as well as I do that each time you get ah a new person starting, your it costs a lot of money.
00:22:01
Speaker
uh to to retrain i mean i've had so yes i suspect this is another advantage um that people who are find their niche as neurodiverse people within a good business uh stay a hell of a lot longer than the average one of the things that has made cotswold fair a good business in this respect though is that you do have someone who is dedicating time to make sure that those people are successful
00:22:27
Speaker
Yes, and we also have, it's a very caring company. and That's the culture we've built. And i think all the other people who work there are fantastic. I mean, it's been very very good for them to learn to relate to people who are different to them. That's another advantage. But the there is, I mean, I think we're allowed to use the word love these days in a business context, but there is a lot of love around, and obviously that helps.
00:22:57
Speaker
everything It helps with the people who are neurodiverse and those that aren't all mixed together and work well together. So is one of the other benefits that people have become a use to having neurode but neurodiverse people around, and then that means that they're more welcoming of other ah the people who are div diverse in other ways.
00:23:18
Speaker
Yeah, including customers as well. Because obviously, you know, you're probably a high percentage, well, the a normal, whatever the percentage is, the there will be customers who are neurodiverse too, weren't there everywhere? So, you know, i think it's good for people to to learn and to learn to relate to people who are different to them, which is probably something that needs to happen a lot more in society as a whole.
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's... yeah We have quite a few students work for us in the holidays and it's great for them to learn to relate to people who are different themselves and you know they probably go off, get other jobs once they graduate from university, but we've we've given them something to take away. You have because you're just saying that makes me think that if someone is at university, they've probably spent the majority of their life being surrounded by other people who are either at university or are working towards going to university as a goal. So people who aren't on that A-level university type of track, they won't have had much exposure to. and You could be giving them that exposure for the first time.
00:24:33
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's true of our society as a whole. of it I don't think people mix as much as they They used to and don't aren't good enough at relating to people who are different from them. So that's big skill if you call that.
00:24:47
Speaker
So what's the future strategy at Cotswold Fair then for diversity and and neurodiverse people and wider employment prospects?
Future Plans for Inclusive Employment
00:24:58
Speaker
Well, we've just opened a second site and um that was we took over an existing team there. But as we grow that site, we will be doing the same.
00:25:10
Speaker
Again, at the second site, so that's the, you know, and then we planned for another through another three before 2030. So you have it all twenty third so a retail operation and catering operation in Bath. Where is the second one?
00:25:26
Speaker
say It's near Bath, but it's um it's between Bath Froome, whereas the first one is halfway between Bath and Bristol. and Then we've got our BDI on there and that a third site at the moment, which is kind of south of Bristol.
00:25:44
Speaker
So yes, the plan is to replicate the model in these other the places. And what's the biggest sort of challenge that you're hoping to avoid as you get better at this? What would be the thing you would not like to repeat doing?
00:26:01
Speaker
I
00:26:04
Speaker
don't know. other
00:26:09
Speaker
I think we've I think we, ah you look well, everyone makes mistakes, but I think that we've, um it's worked well. We haven't had a disaster.
00:26:22
Speaker
um dad a disaster here at all. um And like I said, because we have created that open and inclusive relationship, we we we know from our we do the Sunday Times best place to work. And we were actually highly commended for employing disabled people. And I think because we have that open atmosphere, ah think it does encourage those who are, you know,
00:26:49
Speaker
who are different to come and work for us. So your recruitment costs are less. Yeah, yeah, I think that, yes.
00:26:59
Speaker
So I think having the the deliberate policy, like we've talked about, it has acted as ah as a catalyst to to employ other people with differences. Yeah.
00:27:10
Speaker
So having the strategy, starting out small means that you have a positive impact on your employment. That has a positive impact on your reputation in the community. And being a safe place to work, a safe place to shop, means that your business, it it contributes to the success of your business.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, we haven't mentioned that, but the customers love, i mean, there's other people that work there, two or three are obviously different just from looking at them. So the customers love the fact that we're doing this and um they they they comment on it. And I will just have to tell this story. So one of the girls who worked for us, um her mum,
00:27:57
Speaker
later on it also came and worked for us. And then it was, i think it was her 21st birthday and she invited most people there to the to the party, very, very local to the the first site. And her dad made this amazing speech at her birthday party saying that, um I think I use her name, Beth, and being employed by us had completely transformed the whole family in Yeah, there was not a dry eye in the house, actually.
00:28:29
Speaker
So it's a very nice moment to know that you're making a ah positive difference in ah and a family's life. Yeah, there seems to have been a lot of positivity come out of some negative experiences, having to so start a side gig to pay some bills.
00:28:47
Speaker
And then remembering that experience in a cafe in Jersey and thinking, yeah yes, we could do the same sort of thing. It's, it's, it's feel very positive just listening to you talk about it, but it has been great fun learning more about how you've turned diversity into a commercial advantage.
Episode Conclusion
00:29:06
Speaker
And I do thank you for your time, Paul. Thank you very much.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abbasida. and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Paul Hargreaves, the founder of Cotswold Fair.
00:29:23
Speaker
You could listen to ah Paul on this podcast, but Paul also makes appearances, public speaking, and talking at conferences and at business groups, talking about his experiences of becoming a more diverse employer and the commercial advantages and community advantages that have been created as a result of that.
00:29:43
Speaker
So there is a link in the description to more information about Paul's availability, which I would encourage you to take a look at. I'm sure that you will have liked this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Paul and I have enjoyed making it.
00:29:57
Speaker
Please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:30:14
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.