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How to Lead Without Just Managing – a conversation with author William Davis
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William Davis is the creator of The Leadership Blueprint which aims to address the global crisis in corporate leadership.
He is also the author of How to Lead Without Just Managing.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, William shares with host Michael Millward his view on why and how the crisis in leadership developed.
William and Michael discuss the special role of leadership and the difference between being a leader, a manager and a boss.
They discuss the importance of leaders connecting with the people they lead, and how managers and leaders view their team members differently.
You will leave this episode with useful tips on how to be a better leader.
More information about William Davis and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.co.uk.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
William is based in Texas. With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel to Georgia, or anywhere else at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and so many more travel related purchases.
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Transcript
Introduction to Independent Minds Podcast Series
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida.
Introduction of Guest William Davis and Podcast Production
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, i am going to be learning about how to lead without just managing from the author of a book of that name, William Davis.
00:00:37
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr. Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
00:00:56
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abbasida.
Podcast's Goal: Provoking Thought
00:01:05
Speaker
All the details are in the description.
00:01:09
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:21
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
William Davis's Background and Career
00:01:29
Speaker
Today, my guest, Independent Mind, is William Davis, the author of How to Lead Without Just Managing.
00:01:37
Speaker
William is based in Texas in the United States of America. I have never been to Texas. I would like to go. When I do go, I will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club because at the Ultimate Travel Club I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and so many other travel related purchases.
00:02:00
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link with a discount code in the description. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
00:02:15
Speaker
Hello, William. Michael, how are you doing? I'm extremely well, thank you very much, and I hope you can say the same. I am. but i am a bit disappointed, William, because you didn't say howdy when you started.
00:02:26
Speaker
Well, I'm not a native Texan, so I guess that's probably why. I will take up some things that they do here, but I will not be full Texan in my lifetime. But you have got a cowboy hat I have cowboy hats and cowboy boots. I actually grew up on a thousand acre ranch nice and ah worked it with my dad until he retired in 98. So a proper cowboy then. Yes, sir. That's great.
00:02:50
Speaker
You grew up on a ranch, but You've now written this book, How to Lead Without Just Managing.
Leadership vs Management
00:02:55
Speaker
What's the bit in between? What's the career been like? Well, in our family, ah college was not an option. Dad said, you're going. And so I went. The um area that really drew me was business because I had worked in a bank between my high school and college time and enjoyed it. And so I got into banking as far as a part-time job, went into business as far as a
00:03:22
Speaker
accreditation in college. but I've worked 38 years in corporate America. I've worked with three different organizations. I was with the first one for almost 25 years and then got offered much more money to go to a second organization. I was with them for 13 years.
00:03:39
Speaker
And then this last ah organization I was with for about a year and a half. And I just got to the point, Michael, where i I cannot manage, lead in the way that I see so many organizations wanting you to lead because I just, I don't agree with the philosophy. I don't agree with the way they treat people.
00:04:01
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I have a certain style that I have adapted ah through the course of my life, again, based on my upbringing and and such. I just don't see that we treat our individuals in the workforce in a respectful and proper manner anymore.
00:04:18
Speaker
I want to get to a position to where I can help the newer generations and the even now generation of leaders understand that leading is not being a manager.
00:04:32
Speaker
Leading has a very specific purpose. And that very specific purpose is your people. We've got to get to a point where, well, let me just back up for a second.
00:04:44
Speaker
In 2023, the World Economic Forum, came out and said that we have a world leadership crisis. And then in that same year, was in November 2023, the
Genuine Leadership and Employee Satisfaction
00:04:56
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U.S. News and World Report Harris poll came out.
00:04:59
Speaker
And of the respondents that they had, 78% said we have a leadership crisis in corporate America. Every year, these corporations will do these employee assessments where, you know, how are we doing, you know,
00:05:13
Speaker
are totally unprepared to understand the results when it says 50%, 60%, 70% satisfied. It's why are we not up in the 90s? Well, it's because you're not leading people do not have the kind of investment in what they are doing that you need to in order for that you get those 80% and 90% satisfaction rates.
00:05:37
Speaker
satisfaction rates ah so many questions that I have out of almost every sentence that you've said, because i I agree with everything you've been saying. And I think that needs to be explored in some detail.
00:05:52
Speaker
But you decided to write the book, How to Lead Without Just Managing. First of all, i'd like to ask you why that title? Well, because in in today's society, and it's it's been this way for a while, when you look at corporations and they offer leadership training, it's really management training.
00:06:13
Speaker
It's not leadership training. And so the point I'm trying to make in the book is there is a very distinct difference between being a leader, being a manager, and I also talk about being a boss.
00:06:26
Speaker
You know, obviously the boss mentality has very little effect and and is very early on ah discredits you ah just because of your attitude.
00:06:38
Speaker
But when you look at managers and leaders, I would say that the majority of people can be managers. I can go through as a manager and and tick off the check boxes, right, and say we got to do this, this, this, or this.
00:06:51
Speaker
As a leader, i can also be a manager. But I also need to be able to help people understand the why. Why are we doing this? What is the benefit? What is the reason?
00:07:04
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And inspire them to buy in and to want to be a part of and to participate in And again, i think Today, particularly, especially what I've seen, is we have very few people that have that talent and ability.
00:07:22
Speaker
And I think a lot of it's because they've lost the ability to have that human connection that they need to have with the people that they're supposed to be leading. When i think of management, I think of processes. Yes.
00:07:36
Speaker
And a manager is involved in the management of a process. Yes. I don't think you manage people. You manage their involvement in a process. But to get the person to perform at their highest level consistently, you don't manage them.
00:07:55
Speaker
You lead them. that's correct yes absolutely and that's the that's the point i'm trying to make in in the series of books that i'm writing is that there is a mentality shift that we need to have to exactly what you said because when i first read the title i'm thinking how to lead without just managing thinking like you're talking about leading well rather than just managing to lead. Yes, sir. But actually, you're in the title, you're making quite a clear distinction between the processes of management, the ability to lead.
00:08:32
Speaker
Yes, sir. Because we get the titles mixed up, and we get the words mixed up, and just managing is not the same as leading. Correct, because we've we've gotten to a position where we use those terms interchangeably thinking it's the same thing and it is absolutely not the same thing, not even close.
Team Dynamics and Success
00:08:50
Speaker
They're almost two extremes of a very wide spectrum, I think, aren't they? That's exactly right, yes. yeah How have we got to this point? Well, I think there's a lot of of reasons we've gotten to this point and I'll just go from from my career's perspective.
00:09:07
Speaker
I think the first thing is we have gotten to a position where we view the people that we are leading are supposed to be leading as competition.
00:09:18
Speaker
And they are not. They are compliments to the work, to the to the success. You know, I've always had the mantra, we win together, we lose together.
00:09:30
Speaker
And you have to have that attitude because you know, if you take it back to, I'll take American football or rugby or whatever sport you want to say, the ultimate goal is to win.
00:09:44
Speaker
But in the process of that, you also want to make sure that everybody that is a participant on your team is gaining, is safe, is, you know, moving forward.
00:09:57
Speaker
ah You don't want to win a big game and and then, you know, Some of your players get injured, right, and and are not able to participate again. Same thing and in the corporate world.
00:10:09
Speaker
You know, as we lead people, we're wanting everybody to gain. We're wanting everybody to ah be fulfilled, everyone to be a part of.
00:10:22
Speaker
And so at the end of the day, they can look at themselves and say, I was a part of that. i you know, I want to do more. And I enjoyed that. and And I really feel like I've got a ah place here that I can call a career.
00:10:36
Speaker
It's almost like a manager is someone who controls something and a leader is someone who facilitates something. To some degree, I would say that the leader is ensuring because of the relationship that he needs to have with his team that but on all levels,
00:10:58
Speaker
that they are in good, in a good place. and And I'll just give you an example. I mean, everybody has good days and everybody has bad days. As a leader, if I have somebody coming into the the office, ah you know, they're having a horrific day and it's affecting not only their work, but their interaction with others. Well, there's multiple fronts there that you're wanting to prevent long-term or permanent damage from happening.
00:11:25
Speaker
Right. So I need to make sure that I've got a good enough relationship with that person that one, they feel comfortable with me that when I come to them, say, hey, is everything OK?
00:11:36
Speaker
They don't feel like I'm I'm trying to sabotage them or I'm trying to get rid of them or, know, some other negative. They know this person has got my best interests at heart.
00:11:49
Speaker
They're trying just trying to help. And to the extent that I feel comfortable, I'm going to share with them and then let's work on a solution together. You know, the solution may be as simple as saying, hey, you don't want go work at home today.
00:12:01
Speaker
Or it may be, hey, don't work today. Take a few days off. I'll cover for you. We'll cover for you. Get whatever is the challenge out of your mind and, and you know, get past it and Again, it's all about the support. It's not about just the people doing the job. It's about supporting them in all aspects that allow them to do the job and succeed and and be fulfilled.
00:12:27
Speaker
I have to admit, I think you're preaching to the converted here a little bit because I totally agree with everything that you're saying. I think we do need to make sure that for some people, this will be something that is completely new because of their work experience.
00:12:44
Speaker
They will never have experienced being led. they will have experienced being managed they will have experienced that boss type of approach to people where you can never do anything right you can never do anything that is good enough and so what i'd like to discuss ah i suppose is what does it feel like as an employee as the person who's being led how would someone be able to know that they are being led by ah by a leader rather than just managed? What what does it feel like for the employee?
00:13:19
Speaker
the The process that I've always tried to follow in order to build a a team and and make them feel a part is, first, I get to know them, right? You know, I've inherited teams, I've created teams, and to me, the the process is exactly the same.
00:13:36
Speaker
I have to know who this person is. And I don't do it and ah in a group dynamic. You have to do it on an individual basis because there's not a one size fits all model to establishing a relationship with someone.
00:13:51
Speaker
And I like to tell the story of a young man who went to work for me very, a very talented young man and but he was very nervous I happen to be in the same location as him and I was leading that group and he was always nervous when he got around me and so I was like look what what do you what do you like to do when you're outside the office he'd love to go golf so back then I still golfed and so I said okay you know what you and I are gonna go and I named a day and I said we're just gonna take the afternoon off and we're gonna go golf And man, his eyes got real big. It's like, can we do that?
00:14:25
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, we can do that. That's not a problem. And, you know, we went and played golf and, you know, the first few holes were a little stiff because he was nervous. It's like, oh, I'm with the boss, right? I've got to be careful about everything do.
00:14:39
Speaker
Let me just say the first time I shanked the shot, all the rules were off. Boy, he just loosened up. And because I i make kind of a joke out of it, I said, you know, trying to take it easy on you, right?
00:14:52
Speaker
and And it just loosened up the atmosphere, loosened up the relationship. By the time we turned to the back nine, and and certainly by the time the the round was over with, you would have thought we were best buddies and had known each other for 20 years. The dynamic between us changed so much that he now would not hesitate to come in my office and say, hey, you know, we're doing this and I have an idea.
00:15:20
Speaker
as opposed to before he would have never come in for fear of, that's not my that's not my place. Well, I helped him understand you're as big a part of this team as everyone else.
00:15:32
Speaker
Your input and your output are as important as anyone else. And your ability to succeed is on par with everyone else.
00:15:43
Speaker
I want you to be you and in the way that you work and and do your job. And It's just that philosophy I have taken with everyone that I've ever led.
00:15:55
Speaker
i have yet for to fail because at the end of the day, even if I have to have a tough conversation with them, they know that one, it's not personal and that I'm not out to get them or stab them in the back or whatever, you know, derogatory connotation there is.
00:16:17
Speaker
but that I am actually looking out for their best interests and I'm wanting them to succeed. And hey, I'm here for you. If there's something I'm doing that's wrong, let me know and and and I'll work to change it. And I and you know i yeah i can get on a real tangent about this, but I'll just say this. you know we We get to the point where, oh, we have to have these yearly performance appraisals of our people.
00:16:43
Speaker
Well, I'm sorry. If you're only having a quarterly or a semi-annual or a yearly performance appraisal with your people, you're not a leader.
Continuous Feedback and Learning
00:16:53
Speaker
You're a manager because you're just checking off the box to get it done.
00:16:56
Speaker
Leaders are interacting with their people on a daily basis, not always necessarily saying, but listening, doing, and and providing that instantaneous action.
00:17:13
Speaker
Hey, here's what we're doing. Here's why we're doing it. Guys, let's open up our minds and let's think about, is there a better way than just the standard quote of how to do it? Is there a better way to do it?
00:17:25
Speaker
and And in doing that, again, that's where you bring the engagement in. People feel invested. They feel like that they are a part of. And again, that's what creates excitement. That's what creates innovation.
00:17:39
Speaker
That's what creates great team camaraderie. Yes. um and And so, you know, it just makes your job as a leader so much easier. Yes, I what mean about the annual appraisal. it's If you the only time someone gets feedback on their performance is when you're in a formal process, it's not feedback.
00:18:03
Speaker
it's And you can't possibly trust a manager who is going to do that because you don't know whether something you did six months ago was right or wrong. You're constantly walking on eggshells.
00:18:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I will build on that. Think about something happened in in the course of the year and somebody viewed it negatively, but it wasn't really negative, right? You knew all the details. You knew all the what ah what was going on and how it needed to be done.
00:18:32
Speaker
Your manager or your leader is not engaged. Well, in 12 months down the road, it comes up again in your appraisal. If they don't understand what happened, you're you're sitting there trying to justify work that you did and how you handled it to someone who has no input or or no insight other than what they've heard by somebody who's got one point of view and then you who actually did the work and saw it all the way through.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yes. The thing is, you see, that performance review that happens once a year is about what's going to happen in the following year more than the past. It's about what have you learned and how can we learn more to do even more rather than quizzing somebody about something that happened later.
00:19:23
Speaker
The other thing is, though, that if you're not actually having those conversations with your team, you're bypassing the opportunities to improve. Yes.
00:19:34
Speaker
You're bypassing the opportunities to learn. You're bypassing the opportunities to support them in that learning journey. And it's only when we review what we've done and learn from it that we're actually ever going to get better, more productive and more profitable.
Work-Life Balance and Healthy Work Environment
00:19:49
Speaker
And you're reducing your so many different. You're reducing so many opportunities that you have for making everyone's life better, easier. Use whatever words you want to think of for that particular type of exercise.
00:20:04
Speaker
Yeah. And I think to what you're saying, and and I love and i of how you phrased it, making everyone's life better, right I want somebody to have a work-life balance that is ah healthy, right? Yes.
00:20:20
Speaker
So, again, i I feel part of my responsibility is that when they walk out of that office at the end of the day, they got their heads held up high, they feel good.
00:20:30
Speaker
Even if there's something you know going wrong, they feel good about work we'll handle it. We can handle it. Everything is fixable, folks. I mean, I... That's one thing that drives me crazy, people that jump off the ledge when something goes wrong, like it's the end of time coming.
00:20:48
Speaker
Everything's fixable. Okay. That's exactly what I was going to say. Everything is fixable as long as I know. Yes. Right? If I know, there's so many...
00:20:59
Speaker
experiences that I've had that you are reminding me of. The one, for example, where something happened. wasn't actually, wasn't actually me that had done it. It's just that I had discovered it. And so I thought, what do I do? Well, the first thing I'm going to do is tell my manager about it.
00:21:15
Speaker
So I went in and told my manager and he said, okay, fine. You've told me. And I said, like, I want to talk about what it is we do to put it right. said, okay. And he was saying very, very little.
00:21:27
Speaker
he was making me do all of the work, but he was empowering me to to do the work and to create the solution. Yeah. And you know I love the the interaction that you have when you've got a great relationship with your team because you know some of the the the greatest days I ever had, i would just sit in ah and walk in a conference room, sit there and listen to them brainstorm or listen to them work through you know whatever it was.
00:21:53
Speaker
And that gave me a lot of insight to each individual because I started to understand how their mind worked, right? Some are more process oriented, some are more, you know, outside of the box oriented. And, and so it helped you then if they came to an impasse, it helped you kind of bridge the gap and, and kind of get them to a, maybe not necessarily a 50, 50 place, right?
00:22:17
Speaker
place right But, you know, you could get them back on track and moving forward. Even when somebody would come in the office, as you as you mentioned, ah you know, I'm not going to give them the solution, but I'm going to ask penetrating questions to help them, you know, as they tell me something.
00:22:33
Speaker
Well, what if this happens? Because I want them to, you know, think of other things. I'm not saying that they're wrong, not saying they're right. But again, think it through and and let's make sure we're not making reactionary decision that we're making the right one. got an interest Well, I think it's an interesting question.
00:22:52
Speaker
You can tell me whether it is or not. But I'm imagining at the moment that someone is going to work and they know that they are being managed. And instead of being managed, they want to be led.
Encouraging Leadership Qualities in Managers
00:23:04
Speaker
Is there anything that someone who knows they're being managed but wants to be led can do? To help their manager become a leader. Yeah, I do think so. The, the you know the relationship building can go both ways.
00:23:21
Speaker
Right. And so if you've got a manager that's not engaged with the team is, yeah again, very task oriented, as you said, engage them. Try it individually, first off. so yeah See if it's a so ah situation that they're willing to be brought in on.
00:23:39
Speaker
Well, I always say this, Michael, you have to want to be a leader because leadership is work. Leadership is what your job is.
00:23:51
Speaker
It is to nurture all facets of what it means to be a leader. And so, you know, you try to establish that relationship, try to establish for them the interaction with the team or group or whatever is needed, if it's more than just yourself.
00:24:12
Speaker
And if you can help them get comfortable getting outside of their little eight by eight cubicle or office or whatever it is to to be and engaged engaged in more than just telling us what to do, helping us understand the why and, you know, Hey, I'm looking for you as, as my manager to input based on your knowledge, right?
00:24:35
Speaker
You're here for a reason. And so I'm not going to assume I have all the answers. I, you I'm assuming everybody apart is a part of this that has some input and insight and has a better way to do things.
00:24:48
Speaker
and that includes you. So if your manager isn't managing in a leadership way, then you can encourage them to to be more of a leader by creating the situations that a leader would create.
Natural Leaders Without Titles
00:25:03
Speaker
You can create those situations right yourself.
00:25:07
Speaker
And that would mean sort of going along saying, look, this is the situation. These are the things that we're considering. This is what we think is the best option. And then, but we would like your opinion before we do it.
00:25:19
Speaker
Absolutely. Become the de facto leader, if if you will. and again, i have worked with a bunch of people through the years who didn't have the title, didn't have the office, who were incredible leaders.
00:25:34
Speaker
They naturally, people would gravitate to them. because of their command. I mean, you and I were talking about earlier your voice. Your voice is very calming, very reassuring, very, you know, but very commanding, right?
00:25:49
Speaker
In the fact that, you you know, I know that you know what you're talking about.
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:25:53
Speaker
And there's a lot of people, whether it be their voice or whether it be their mannerisms, that people can cue in on that they they are somebody that i can feel comfortable with and and you know feel that they are a part of us and and helping us succeed that sounds like it could be a whole podcast on its own a discussion about how we present ourselves as individuals throughout our behavior and mannerisms can how those can impact our ability to lead absolutely but
00:26:27
Speaker
You know, William, it has been very interesting this afternoon to, well, this afternoon for me in the UK, this morning for you in Texas. But I've had, it's been really interesting. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much.
00:26:41
Speaker
I appreciate it, Michael. I've enjoyed it. And like I'm with you, I would love to come back and let's talk more about it and and other aspects of it. We will get it organized. Thank you very much.
00:26:54
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, William Davis, author of How to Lead Without Just Managing.
00:27:07
Speaker
You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. At the Independent Minds, our aim is proactive positive aging.
00:27:20
Speaker
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00:28:02
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00:28:16
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The Zencastr system has as always been very efficient today, but if you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, and have experienced technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data, so listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:28:35
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00:28:47
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All in all, that description is well worth reading. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as William and I have enjoyed making it.
00:28:59
Speaker
Please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:29:16
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.