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Right Now Leadership – a conversation with author Kyle Gillette
18 Plays8 days ago
Kyle Gillette created the Blue Shirt Leadership Framework, which he explained in his book Right Now Leadership.
Right Now Leadership is based on the 4-part B.L.U.E. Leadership framework that provides today's leaders with the core tenets to inspire other people to follow them.
In this episode of the Abecederpodcast The Independent Minds, Kyle explains to host Michael Millwardthe experiences he had in unconventional leadership situations that led him to create the B.L.U.E. Leadership framework.
Kyle defines the four tenets of the B.L.U.E. Leadership framework. Michael and Kyle then discuss their various situations from their careers where these tenets would, if they had been applied have created a better experience for both the leader and the led.
More information about Kyle Gillette and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
Contact Kyle at BlueShirtCoaching.com
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If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
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Transcript
Introduction to Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida.
Kyle Gillette's Leadership Framework
00:00:29
Speaker
Today, my guest independent mind is Kyle Gillette. He is the creator of the Blue Shirt Leadership Framework and author of Right Now Leadership.
00:00:43
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple and Google.
00:01:03
Speaker
It really does make creating content so easy.
Creating Engaging Podcast Content
00:01:07
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:01:17
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencast is for creating podcasts, we should create one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:33
Speaker
Very importantly, as in all episodes of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Kyle's Background and Early Career
00:01:44
Speaker
Today, my guest independent mind, who I met on matchmaker.fm, is Kyle Gillette.
00:01:52
Speaker
He is the creator of the Blue Shirt Leadership Framework and author of Right Now Leadership. Kyle is from Bellingham, which is in Washington State, United States of America.
00:02:07
Speaker
Not surprisingly, it is a place I have never visited. But if I was going to visit, a good place to book my travel would be the Ultimate Travel Club. It is where I get trade prices on flights and hotels.
00:02:21
Speaker
You'll find a link and membership discount code in the description. So let's say hello. Kyle, hello. Hey, Michael. Thanks for having me on the show Great pleasure. Thank you very much. Welcome to the Independent Minds.
00:02:36
Speaker
Please, could we start by you telling us a little bit about the backstory of Kyle Gillette? Sure. Yeah, i grew up in California in the middle of the Central Valley of California. So the Central Valley is basically a desert that's been turned into a farm, a massive multiple million acre farm of a bunch of different people farming various different things. And happen to grow up on an orange farm out there.
00:03:02
Speaker
And did that, worked with my dad, for my dad until I was about 18, started in seventh grade and until I was 18, and then headed off to college where i went to get a degree in kinesiology, which is exercise science, mostly focused on becoming a physical therapist.
00:03:19
Speaker
Well, you know, that's not what I did. So i hit though I hit my senior year and i was in a place of basically being afraid of life, afraid of adulthood, because I had enjoyed college so much. it was...
00:03:36
Speaker
it was was athletics. It was beach time. it was hang out with friends, all that kind of stuff. And I got a little distracted and ended up being behind in units. I did fine in school, but I was behind in units and I was also stressed. And so I remember sitting at my desk in my apartment talking to my parents and I was 40 pounds overweight and I was covered in poison oak because I had gone off trail with some friends on a hike.
00:04:02
Speaker
And I had, I happened to have gone to
From Troubled Student to Mentor and Leader
00:04:05
Speaker
the bathroom too. So I literally had poison oak from my shoulders all the way down to my ankles. Cause I'm really allergic. So it was ugly, but it was a microcosm of where I was in life. Just, you know, a mess, a wreck.
00:04:18
Speaker
And what was fortunate was, Is I got a phone call from a friend that I'd gone to India with and he said, hey, I've got a job opportunity that I think you'd be, you could be qualified for. And I said, okay, well tell me about it. So, so he told me about it and it was a program for guys that are off track in life.
00:04:36
Speaker
And the guys are 18 to 25 year olds that live in this house and they they just need some direction and we help them create what's called a life map. So I applied to the job, got the interview and I drove onto the property and I drove up and there's chain link fence with a bunch of dogs barking and then drove over this bridge, more dogs barking, more chain link fence and then a green grass, American flag and a farmhouse.
00:05:03
Speaker
So it's really idyllic. Now the chain link fencing doesn't sound idyllic, but it was actually a doggy daycare. So there's play structures that are like bright blue and bright yellow and red. And, and, and it's, you know, really cool.
00:05:15
Speaker
So I'm thoroughly confused as to what this place is and hop out of my civic and walk up the concrete steps, knock on the farmhouse door. And the president of the program opens the door, introduces me to the director of the program. We have an hour and a half long chat in this,
00:05:32
Speaker
run down living room with with ah blue carpet and old entertainment center. By the time we're done, they asked me, do you want the job? I'm like, well, let me think about it.
00:05:45
Speaker
So I thought about it for about 15 seconds and accepted the job on the spot. And what that meant is i would be moving out of my apartment after I graduated college and moving in with these, this into this program in living in this house with two to six guys that are trying to get their lives figured out.
00:06:03
Speaker
And I would be responsible to lead them and help them get their lives on track.
Running a Pet Resort and Mentoring Youth
00:06:08
Speaker
So that was my first foray into leading men and coaching men and helping people get get things more organized.
00:06:16
Speaker
It sounds like quite a baptism of fire, to be honest. It was. it it It was really intense. Especially because i don't have that history. I don't i don't have a ah history of like drug and a alcohol alcohol myself.
00:06:30
Speaker
um And so I came into it being pretty wet behind the ears, let's say, pretty green. And it was a quick learning experience. I remember the first time a student lied to me about, I don't know what, about doing their homework or doing something that they were required to do in the program.
00:06:47
Speaker
And I was shocked. Yeah. I was always shocked, oh my gosh, I got lied to. It was it was ridiculous that I was shocked, like it's so naive. But I learned very quickly and fortunately had great mentorship while I was there from the president and the director. And they grew me up real quick in that 10 month time period of living there.
00:07:05
Speaker
ah then Then I left the program for about a year, started my own business as a personal trainer. That went really great. But then I got invited back to run the pet resort that was on the property.
00:07:16
Speaker
And so I said, yeah, let's do it. So I got to run the pet resort for, I think, four years. We doubled the revenue of the pet resort, made the program fully sustained by the pet resort. And then I got promoted to the director position and all told I was in the program for 10 years helping people.
00:07:32
Speaker
over 150, maybe around 200 guys go through the program and and not everybody graduated by any means, but ah go through the program and get their lives straightened out significantly more.
00:07:42
Speaker
So that was that was a really fantastic experience. Yeah. And then you you leave there, you move on into other things.
Birth of the Blue Shirt Leadership Framework
00:07:52
Speaker
how did How did you come to ah create the Blue Shirt Leadership?
00:07:57
Speaker
What happened there? Yeah, in the middle of working in the, and the program was called Alpha Academy. It still exists, still running, and it's still doing great. But um while I was there, I got married, had a couple of kiddos, and my wife and I are going, well, we either move back to the Central Valley, and I become a farmer, or we move up the Pacific Northwest, close to her parents, and I become dot, dot, dot.
00:08:18
Speaker
Who knows? ah so Who knows? Who knows? Exactly. So she's a nurse and we ended up moving up to the Pacific Northwest. She got a job at a hospital and I applied to 90 jobs and got two interviews.
00:08:32
Speaker
So that sucked. But in the process, I ended up landing an HR job. That job opened my eyes to coaching, opened my eyes to, wait a second, I want to make the impact in my life like I was before, but in a new context. And I realized that I could do that through coaching. So I got a John Maxwell coaching certification, got ICF certification and started to do workshops, started to do masterminds, started one-to-one coaching, quit my job.
00:09:03
Speaker
And six years later, I'm talking to you. So it was it's been a it's been a pretty cold journey. hey Yeah, and you end up talking to me, so I must be there the cherry on top of the cake type of thing, I suppose. is Great stuff.
00:09:19
Speaker
Thank you very much. That's brilliant. All of this experience in this like the rehabilitation type place, the running of ah you ran a business within that. but The workforce that you had within what you call a pet resort, the doggy daycare type center, was would not be for most employers the ideal type of workforce to have.
00:09:42
Speaker
But right you didn't have you didn't have the luxury of going out and being able to find the perfect employees. You basically... had what you had and you had to make the best of them.
00:09:53
Speaker
you know You improved the the financial side of the business and also encouraged other people through through a program as a result of it. And then the HR experience, how did all of that lead to the creation of the Blue Shirt Leadership approach?
Developing the BLUE Acronym
00:10:09
Speaker
Yeah, well, it was it was the middle of the night and i was laying in bed asleep. And prior to to this moment in my life, I had spent probably several months trying to figure out what is my intellectual property that I can use and create and do whatever I want with, because I wanted to have something that I could do what I wanted with without having to check in.
00:10:33
Speaker
You know, disc is a tool that I use and I can't do whatever I want with it. I didn't create it. I use it and it's wonderful, but it's not mine. And so I knew that that would be important for my business. So I started thinking about it and praying on it and just taking notes and having conversations. And so it was 3 a.m. m I wake up and I hear a voice say to me, self-awareness, not a big, not a big deal, right? What's the big deal about self-awareness? Well, that was the first word in blue, right?
00:10:59
Speaker
Be a self-aware leader. And so I jumped out of bed, just in my in my boxers, ran into our kitchen, sat down at the chair at the table, and for the next four hours started writing out what became self-aware Blue Shirt Leadership.
00:11:14
Speaker
It was a really cool moment because sometimes it's the it's those obvious things that make the biggest shifts in our lives. And I think that that's a microcosm of what Blue Shirt Leadership is all about and what the book Right Now Leadership is all about as well. There's those little shifts that you can make right now that can make all the difference.
00:11:31
Speaker
So it's a pretty neat experience to just have that shot in the arm, if you will, of a revelation of this is what I need to be creating. So you're not talking about earth-shattering changes.
00:11:47
Speaker
The moment at which this all came to is a bit of a eureka moment. There's an earth-shattering sort of thing. It must have been quite a shock for the family to wake up and go into the kitchen for breakfast and there's dad in his boxer shorts typing away, writing all this sort of stuff
Meaning Behind BLUE: Self-awareness and Empowerment
00:12:03
Speaker
out. No, no, don't leave me alone. I'm on this, I'm on this sort of stuff. I can almost picture the scene.
00:12:09
Speaker
but the The whole sort of um approach that you've created uses the acronym BLUE as the foundation. must admit, when I first saw this, I thought, well, we're talking about this as a leadership approach for people that but that we would describe as blue-collar workers rather than white-collar workers, so yeah all this sort stuff. But that's not the case. We must we mr so put that stake in the ground and say, this is not an approach that simply works for people in manual type jobs. This was an approach that works for everyone. So we start with that.
00:12:42
Speaker
But yeah I like it. So let's go into it The acronym is BLUE. Then you've told us what the B stands for. It's Be a Self-Aware Leader. So what are the other three?
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah, so L is lead with accountability. U is use a growth mindset and is empower others. Let's go back to the B and yeah just in a few words, describe what being self-aware as a leader means.
00:13:09
Speaker
Being self-aware as a leader means letting go of the limiting beliefs and the negative emotions and the misaligned values in your life and in your leadership.
00:13:21
Speaker
you let go of that, now you're truly going to be present and aware of who you are and what you're about. So you have to start. You got to start with being a self-aware leader if you're going to grow to the level that you want to grow.
00:13:33
Speaker
So being true to yourself rather than trying to be someone else as a leader, being your authentic self and being so aware of your you have the decisions that you make, how you make them, and the communication and making sure that that is being done in a way that is authentic.
00:13:52
Speaker
to you rather than trying to be ah copy of someone else that you may have seen in the media or been led by in the past. It's about being you as a leader.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah. most Most people wear a mask and not on purpose, not on purpose at all. It's just what happens because we haven't done the work of dealing with the stuff that's in our background. So if you rewind to my story, working in that men's mentoring program, those guys had a lot of stuff in their histories.
00:14:25
Speaker
ah Some of it was abuse. Some of it was just rough upbringing. Some of it was ah they they did dumb things themselves and it created this unfortunate perspective that they had on themselves and sometimes on life.
00:14:40
Speaker
And so in know typically in a smaller way, every single client that I've ever worked with has something like that in their history and multiple multiple things like that that are that are really hindering them from being their authentic self, being the the leader they're meant to be is the language that I like to use.
00:14:59
Speaker
Yes. get what You get that awareness for that individual. And it's a joyous experience because now now that they've let go of that mask, that those false notions about themselves and what they need to think about themselves or what they believed about themselves.
00:15:16
Speaker
Wow, you talk about freedom. So this is this is why it has to start there. I'm going to change the word that you use to word that i I can relate to a little bit more because you talk about a mask.
00:15:28
Speaker
I'm going to talk about a label. And the label, so we say, oh we've now got a job title, which is a label. That means I have to behave in this particular way. I have to...
00:15:41
Speaker
fulfill expectations of someone who has that job title. And that job title can be manager, supervisor, whatever you want. But it's also like, oh, you could say to one of the guys that you were supporting it in that program, oh, you've been labeled as an addict, you've been labeled as a criminal, you've been labeled as And that almost that label gives people permission to put on a mask of behaviors because they've got that label.
00:16:12
Speaker
And it's almost like in the same sort of way as we get a new job title that gives us permission to behave in a particular way, which may not actually be the way that we want to behave, but it's the way in which we believe or we've been told that people expect someone with that job title to to behave.
00:16:33
Speaker
and But I can see exactly what you mean. it's just The mask is almost like can be self-generated, but it can also be the result of perceptions of what a label means we should be doing.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yep.
Authentic Leadership and Overcoming Baggage
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, another another metaphor that can work is the baggage, the baggage of past decisions, the baggage of life stuff. And once you let go of that baggage and you go, you know, I don't need to carry all these rocks. This is stupid.
00:17:04
Speaker
I'm going to let go them. I'm to learn my lessons from them, but I don't want to carry all the baggage from it. And then... After that, the beauty of, I mean, there's multiple things that I'm doing with my clients, but one of the the really powerful steps is helping them to determine their values on it at an unconscious level, not at a conscious level, not like, oh, I got to think about it. Let me tell you my list of values. No, we're getting to the unconscious level through a series of questions in a process that I walk them through.
00:17:28
Speaker
Because when you filter your life and your business through your true rooted values, ha there we go. Now you get to be your authentic self at that point, because it's easy to say yes or no to the things because you know that the filtering comes from truly who you are and what you're about.
00:17:47
Speaker
So I love it when people get those dialed in and figured out. Yes, I can see it's it's it's a very empowering um situation to be in. Once you've got those things figured out, it makes you a better leader, I think. It makes you a stronger leader. And I don't mean that in terms of strength as in being stronger than other people. It just means that you have more confidence. You are a better leader because you are better at leading yourself.
00:18:16
Speaker
Yep, 100% and easier to follow because of that. Yes, yeah. yeah what There are three other parts to this four-letter acronym. One is the L, which is lead with accountability.
00:18:27
Speaker
There is the U, which is use a growth mindset, and E, which is empower others. I think it's fair to so like say yeah if people want to read about all or find out more about all four, then there is a book available and there will be a link in the description to the book.
00:18:43
Speaker
But of the four, you know I'm very interested in the be a self-aware leader, but I'm also very interested in the final one, the one that talks about empowering others.
Empowering through Attention and Fascination
00:18:55
Speaker
And when we were preparing this, I said to you, well, that must mean things like delegation. And you said, well, not quite. And I stopped you then and said, like well, explain to me what empower others means.
00:19:08
Speaker
whilst we actually got the record button pressed. So now is that time. What does empower others mean within the Blue Shirt leadership model? Yeah, you know I'm glad you brought this up because i think if you were to give me the choice of the other three to talk about, I probably would have chosen empowerment. it's a It's a path that I'm on right now because of the community I'm building and because of ultimately my goal to help thousands of business owners shift their mindsets and habits. And that's very empowering.
00:19:38
Speaker
ah and So I teach my clients a five so ive five-step process. And so i'll I'll touch on that on this on this recording because I think it's a lot of fun, especially when people get the first step, when they understand the first step.
00:19:55
Speaker
So, Michael, what was the last movie, book or TV show that you watched that you were just, it was riveting to you? You were on the edge of your seat.
00:20:06
Speaker
Oh, well, um there is a BBC series called Spooks. And I have i have um sat and watched that with friends on the edge of a seat and been screaming at the screen.
00:20:24
Speaker
Don't do it. All that sort of stuff. But Spooks, um which BBC production is, and I think there's been a film of that as well. Yes, there has. But Spooks is a fantastic series as far as I'm concerned.
00:20:36
Speaker
Okay. Well, first of all, I probably need to look it up. Second, when you're when you're watching that with your friends, ah do you leave the room and go mess around and text on your phone? Oh, no, no, no. We're all there together in a and a combined experience and being...
The Unconscious Mind in Leadership
00:20:56
Speaker
It's like in this you say we're on the street with the people. yeah know We're living it with them.
00:21:02
Speaker
Okay. Yep. And so you're not, you're not leaving the room. You're not texting on your phone. You're not, your attention rarely, if ever goes away from the screen, right? That right there is the first step to empowerment.
00:21:15
Speaker
It's, it's the, I call it the assumption step. And what I mean by this is when you're leading people, whether they're family members, friends, employees, whatever place you have authority,
00:21:29
Speaker
I want you to assume that the person that you're interacting with is fascinating, just like that show of spooks and to give them that sort of attention and that sort of appreciation, right?
00:21:41
Speaker
And if we actually ask ourselves how often we do that with people, or especially those that we don't like that much, it's it might be a little embarrassing. and And that's fine because we can grow and we can learn from that. but But that's the reality.
00:21:56
Speaker
So here's how do you fix it though, right? So if if the point is to give people that level of attention when they're with you, you give them that level of attention, well, how do you fix it when it's hard to do that?
00:22:07
Speaker
Well, you use the power of the unconscious mind because our unconscious mind filters 2 million bits of information every second. And our conscious mind takes on 126 bits, 126 compared to 2 million bits of information.
00:22:24
Speaker
So what does that look like? Michael, I want you to think about your refrigerator. Okay. Now imagine your refrigerator is filled with toothpicks. Okay. Okay.
00:22:35
Speaker
And every one of those toothpicks has a bit of information on it. Maybe the way my voice sounds, maybe what you're hearing in in your house, maybe something you're seeing, ah something you're feeling in your body, whatever.
00:22:47
Speaker
Every one of those toothpicks has a bit of information on it. And every second there's 2 million of them coming at you. So imagine those toothpicks are being dumped on your head every second. And you now have to figure out what the heck you're going to do with all that information.
00:23:01
Speaker
Our brain takes that information and filters it and presents us with 126 them. Here's the cool part. um Our conscious mind is the goal setter and our unconscious mind is the goal getter.
00:23:14
Speaker
So if you tell your unconscious mind, I want this person that I'm talking to, i want you to help me find why they're fascinating, why I can trust them to come up with brilliant solutions and be innovative and creative.
Changing Dynamics through Perception Training
00:23:27
Speaker
You tell your unconscious mind to do that. and And then all of a sudden, when those toothpicks get dumped on you, you can grab those bits. Your brain starts grabbing those bits bits and presenting them to you. And because the way we work, our perception is our reality.
00:23:40
Speaker
Then that person, you're going to perceive them differently. But because you perceive them differently and you're leading them, they will change, period. It's just what happens. Well, I'll tell you a very, very, very brief story. I did this with my daughter.
00:23:52
Speaker
We weren't getting along. She's seven. She was yelling at me, angry at me all the time. i was getting angry at her. and was a terrible season for us. And I changed my my toothpicks. I started grabbing different ones. And I said, you know what?
00:24:05
Speaker
I'm the dad. And I'm the one that's screwing this up. I need to change my attitude here and see her differently. And so I did. And all of a sudden now she's telling me she loves me. And now she's telling she wants to be around me. She wants me to tuck her into bed, right?
00:24:21
Speaker
Because I changed my perspective. Nothing. She didn't change anything. She's seven. Come on. So it's very, very powerful. So that's the first step. That one took a little while, but that's the first step.
00:24:33
Speaker
I understand exactly what you mean about that. i think like the first step is is powerful in itself. It's that and the analogy of the the the television program, the film that you focus on intensely.
00:24:47
Speaker
And then I can remember being in situations where I'm working for people that I had a huge amount of respect for. I really want to ah really enjoyed working with them for them, having them as my manager.
00:25:03
Speaker
But if somebody said, what's the one annoying habit that they've got? I would say it was like, They don't stop doing something. you know They tell you that it's all right for you to go into their office and talk to them about something which I feel is really important. I'm going to them looking for assistance or wanting to keep them informed about something that i think is really important, but the they're doing something else whilst I'm talking to them.
00:25:32
Speaker
And you you have that feeling like, this just simply isn't important to you. And if that what I've got to say to you isn't important, then I'm not important. And i can see how giving people your focus and your attention, especially the people that you don't like, and I'm guilty as of that as everybody else is, I'm sure,
00:25:55
Speaker
actually does empower people, but you don't actually need to tell them that you're empowering them. You just demonstrate that you are empowering them by telling them through your own actions that what they have to say, what they are doing is important to you as their
Summary of Empowerment and Invitation to Kyle's Book
00:26:15
Speaker
leader.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yep. It's beautiful. And it's way more impactful. Actions speak louder than words. you know we all learned that in kindergarten or whatever. And it's it's the truth. So you go you do that first step. and you You have to start there. You can't start anywhere else. You have to start there. Just like self-awareness, you got to start with this step in empowerment. Well, unfortunately, the second step is one of those things that I'm going to ask people to look in your book for because we we've come to the end of our time.
00:26:43
Speaker
You know, Carl, in just the short space of time that we've had and the very briefest description really of this blue acronym and just exploring for a very short period some of the things that make that up and the blue shirt leadership model.
00:27:02
Speaker
I can put now into a better frame some of the ah frustrations that I've had in my career of working with managers who were not implementing what you've been talking about.
00:27:18
Speaker
And I'm sure there are people that have called me their manager who have experienced exactly what I am now recalling after listening to your explanation.
Joining the Blue Shirt Leadership Community
00:27:33
Speaker
You're building a community around this. So how can people get involved in in that community?
00:27:41
Speaker
Yeah, they can go to my website, blueshirtcoaching.com. And go to the community link and learn about who I'm working with well and what we're all about.
00:27:52
Speaker
And ah if somebody wants to connect with me directly, go to blueshirtcoaching.com and you can schedule a conversation with me. I'd love to have conversations with people. And I'm also, I've got some new courses out. So there's going to be some times where those courses are free. So look out for checking out those courses.
00:28:08
Speaker
I've really enjoyed my conversation with you today, ah Kyle. It's been very, very interesting. Thank you for helping me make what has been a fascinating episode of The Independent Minds. Thank you.
00:28:23
Speaker
Thank you. An all too brief time with Carl Gillette, but I do recommend to everybody that you investigate the community and the various different things which he is involved in.
Podcast Conclusion and Resources
00:28:35
Speaker
but I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Kyle Gillette. You can find out more about both of us at abasida.co.uk.
00:28:49
Speaker
There is a link in the description, along with links to all the other websites that we have mentioned. I must send a great big thank you to the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Carl Gillette.
00:29:03
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Carl you have something very interesting to say matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:29:16
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. That description is well worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like, download it, so that you can listen at any time, anywhere.
00:29:32
Speaker
And to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abucida is not to tell you what to think, but as Kyle has done with me today, we do hope to make you think.
00:29:47
Speaker
All that remains for me to say is a big thank you to Kyle, an even bigger thank you to you for listening, and until the next episode of The Independent Minds, goodbye.