Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Leadership Opportunities for Working Mothers – a conversation with working moms coach Rebecca Olson.
17 Plays1 month ago
Rebecca Olson is a working mom, who is using her experience of motherhood to help other working mothers to balance motherhood with achieving career objectives.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Rebecca explains to host Michael Millward a few of the issues that mothers face when returning to work after maternity leave and highlights the high number of women who change their jobs within 18-moths of their return to work.
Rebecca discusses the identity crisis that many mothers endure as they try to redefine life and work because of the changes that parenthood brings. She looks at the role line managers play in creating a successful maternity leave and return to work.
Michael and Rebecca discuss the Moms First Moms in the Workplace report identifying what it tells employers and managers who want to retain their talented mothers.
Rebecca is the host of the Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms podcast.
More information about Rebecca Olson and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Travel
With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere else at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and many more travel related purchases.
Fit For Work Look after your health and you will be fit for work.
It is important for entrepreneurs maintain good mental and physical health. That is why we recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test; a 39-health marker Annual Health Test conducted by an experienced phlebotomist Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A secure Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and lifestyle guidance
Visit York Test and use this discount code MIND25.
Three the network Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We use Matchmaker.fm to connect with potential guests If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where great guests and great hosts are matched and great podcasts are hatched. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'The Independent Minds'
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director Abbasida.
Impact of Motherhood on Female Leadership
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, Rebecca Olson and I will be exploring the impact motherhood has on female representation in corporate leadership roles.
00:00:38
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that makes every stage of the podcast production process, including editing and distribution to all the platforms, so easy.
00:00:58
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com. Using the link in the description, it has a built-in discount. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one.
00:01:14
Speaker
One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. Very importantly on the Independent Minds, we don't tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
Rebecca Olson's Journey and Podcast
00:01:27
Speaker
Today, my guest Independent Mind is Rebecca Olson. Rebecca is a life coach who focuses on working with working mothers. Rebecca also has her own podcast, which is called Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms.
00:01:43
Speaker
You'll find a link in the description. Now, Rebecca is based in San Francisco, California, USA.
Michael's Travel Anecdote
00:01:50
Speaker
San Francisco is a place I have visited on a misty day.
00:01:54
Speaker
Well, a misty week, actually. i never got to see the Golden Gate Bridge, really. But if I get the opportunity to go again, i will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I get trade prices on trains, flights, hotels and holidays, as well as all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:12
Speaker
You can access the same trade prices by using the discounted link in the description.
Motherhood Identity Crisis
00:02:18
Speaker
Now that I've paid the rent, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
00:02:23
Speaker
Hello, Rebecca. Hello, Michael. Thank you for having me. I know it's quite early in your day in California, but I do appreciate you making the time available to talk to me about what is, I think, a very important subject, but one which I hadn't really thought about very much until you wrote to me. So thank you very much for that.
00:02:43
Speaker
Absolutely. Excited to be here. Great. Can you please start by telling me how you became a ah life coach who works with working mothers? My story is...
00:02:55
Speaker
not unlike a lot of my client stories, to be honest. It was one where I got pregnant and that is now almost, ah that's over 11 years ago. My daughter will be 11 very soon.
00:03:08
Speaker
I went through what I would call the motherhood identity crisis. ah Come to find out, many, many, many women, i've i've almost I don't know if I can name another woman that has not experienced some flavor of this, but it's ah an experience that happens after...
00:03:26
Speaker
You start having kids where you kind of just say, oh my gosh, what am I doing with my life? is Is anything really matter but what I'm doing? do i Do I still want to keep doing what i do what I'm doing right now? it's It's this sort of identity crisis. It's an internal crisis where you you start asking yourself lots of big esoteric questions about your life and what you've done up to this point and and what you want to do forward.
Coaching Ambitious Working Mothers
00:03:50
Speaker
And for me, being a very...
00:03:53
Speaker
goal-focused, kind of impact-driven, would, you know dare I say, ambitious person, it was very confusing to me at that time. And I didn't know how to handle that moment ultimately. And so I spent about a year kind of doing a lot of soul searching, lot of trying to figure out what I really wanted and where I was headed and and found coaching. That's a whole other story is somebody kind of made that suggestion and I looked into it and I said, you know what? i this could This could be my career or it could be the most expensive personal development journey I've ever been on, but I'm going
00:04:29
Speaker
I'm going to go for it. And I found I loved it and said, oh my gosh, I got to help other women that have gone through the same thing that I went through and and help them do it faster and ah more powerfully. And so here I am about ah almost nine years later.
00:04:44
Speaker
Nine years. You must have been right at the start of this sort of type of coaching then. Coaching is a you know, it's an ever-growing process.
00:04:55
Speaker
industry for sure. And we see a lot of executive coaches out there. i certainly do kind of my share and flavor of working with executives as well, but to, i there's something different about coaching that is really focused on women that want to remain in the workforce and have a lot of drive to remain in the workforce.
00:05:18
Speaker
And they don't want to sacrifice their family in the process. You know, a lot of women would say, It's kind of an either or. You have to choose. Can't have both. And i'm I'm here to give them other options other than that one because that one feels terrible to us.
00:05:34
Speaker
There's always a way. There's always a way. But suppose as coaching, as a profession has developed, people have gone into more specialist areas. But you are the first person that I know who focuses on coaching working mothers. So it's a bit of a first. And you've been doing it for nine years.
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. But and I was making some notes as you were talking and I had all these devil's advocates type of feme thoughts that went through my head. I'm not trying to be chauvinistic or anything about it. But when you talk about the the motherhood identity crisis.
00:06:12
Speaker
I was thinking that maybe it's the growing of the identity, especially for a first time mom. you know You go through life as an individual person, you have your career, you have your friends, you have your life.
00:06:27
Speaker
Everything seems to be rolling along. And then this bundle of fun arrives called a baby. and life changes. Life changes for men. So it changes for women as well.
00:06:39
Speaker
And is the identity crisis ah process of adult adapting to being a mother? Or is it that the motherhood so falls into place because you've got this bundle, this baby, and it's the rest of everything? How do you accommodate it within being a mother? I suppose the question is about Do you find that women are confused about where they want to put their priority or that the priority falls naturally and the confusion or the challenge rather than the confusion? The challenge is more about how does everything else fit around motherhood responsibilities? Well, on many levels, it's a both for sure. But I think that we're, as a culture, we understand we're well-versed in the idea that priorities change after one has kids.
00:07:35
Speaker
And that makes sense to all of us, right? we We're not going to neglect our children or the the next generation, if you will. And so there' there's literal restructuring of life that has to happen. And again, as as a culture, we sort of accept that.
00:07:50
Speaker
What is unknown, and I think ah a lot, we're we're seeing a lot more women showcasing this in particular, we're seeing a lot more ideas out there as people are more vulnerable to share what's actually happening internally, is for for many women, i would I would describe it as a crisis.
00:08:07
Speaker
It's this feeling of, i you know, I once knew what my goals were, and I once knew where I was headed, and now I'm I don't.
Work-Life Balance Challenges for Mothers
00:08:16
Speaker
And everything feels very confusing because of that. If you were on one trajectory to even question if you want to be on the that trajectory when for the last 10 to 15 years in your career you have been is very jarring. And you do go through this period of what feels crisis like. And am I ever going to find myself again? Is this...
00:08:39
Speaker
what really matters to me is has is what I've been doing matter to me and trying to sort through those questions while at the same time trying to prioritize your external life in such a way that you know managing you're managing all of the the various commitments that you have as well.
00:08:54
Speaker
And it becomes, I suppose, something that is a very practical challenge when you say managing all the various different commitments. Yes. Yes. that is a And that's where we probably could start talking about things like work-life balance and what does that look like to manage both work and life and do both of those things very well in a way where you feel like you're not kind of failing across the board, which but is a very is a huge reality for women. I don't know what this the statistics are for that, but it's pretty high around how many women feel like they're not doing anything well.
00:09:31
Speaker
Because before you had kids, you were able to put all of your energy primarily towards the goal of of career trajectory. I mean, obviously you probably have a partner in there as well, or maybe got married and so forth, and you need to put energy there as well. But most of your energy went towards this one goal.
00:09:48
Speaker
And now that you're a mom, you can't put all of your energy and your thought space and your time towards that one goal anymore, nor do you want to because you actually want to spend time with your child and raise your child and so forth.
00:10:02
Speaker
And so how the kind of fundamental question a lot of women ask and a lot of my clients ask is, how do I do both simultaneously?
00:10:12
Speaker
You just got me thinking that actually, if you are single and you can be career focused, whether a man or a woman, you've got to think about work-life balance. But when you become a parent, you have to think about work-life-life balance. Yes.
00:10:27
Speaker
Because there is this child or more than one child, perhaps, that needs your attention as well. As with many things, the the thing or the element of that balance that comes last on the list is the self one.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. People ah don't look after themselves first. Look after yourself first, then you're better able to look after other the people. Of course. and And we could talk about that from ah an angle of self-care, obviously, and getting enough sleep, getting enough rest, moving your movement, your body, health, things like that, as well as hobbies, things that you enjoy so that life doesn't feel like you're just working all of the time, whether that's your paid work or your unpaid work.
00:11:12
Speaker
But we can also talk about that from the angle of what your' ah what you want out of your your life, your dreams. And this is where we can start to talk. We can talk a bit about how that plays itself out in in ah in a workplace because there's an assumption made.
00:11:29
Speaker
and again, I would probably go back to a cultural level and that women, once they start having kids, they don't want to go all into their career anymore.
00:11:41
Speaker
and Just kind of across the board, we have
Changing Gender Roles in Childcare
00:11:43
Speaker
that idea. I remember returning to work myself and I heard just absolutely joking. but My team and I had a male manager and another male coworker that told me that they were joking if i was if they if they thought I was gonna return or not.
00:11:58
Speaker
They thought that maybe I would get so lost in motherhood that, you know, I might not return back to work. And while at the time I didn't think much about it, now I look back and I and i say, wow, that is such a an example of how we tend to think of women.
00:12:15
Speaker
when they have kids. And we don't think about men when they have kids. It is a very different different scenario. Yet a lot of statistics actually show that women have a very strong desire to maintain work and make an impact at work and continue to focus on work goals.
00:12:36
Speaker
We're fighting though. we're i mean, we're fighting lots of things, including this sort of idea that's out there on some level that women want to pull back. When you say the statistics show that women want to come back to work, there will always be women who decide to stay at home hands they come out and a stay-at-home mom.
00:12:58
Speaker
yes I'm also noticing, and it's just my experience, that there are more men. who when they become fathers decide, actually, i just, I had my parental leave and I want that to carry on.
00:13:11
Speaker
I want to be the person at home who is supporting the child. Sometimes that is just because that's what the man wants to do. And other times it's because the female member of the of the marriage actually earns more money and is more career orientated than he
Employer Support and Parental Policies
00:13:32
Speaker
was. So it's very practical as well.
00:13:35
Speaker
With my HR professionals hat on, I want to treat the people that are employees as individuals and not make sweeping assumptions about this is what women do, this is what men do, or this is so put people into boxes in that way.
00:13:53
Speaker
So I suppose, and what can I do as the line manager first or then as an HR person, as the organisation? to actually make it easier for women who want to be working mums, to actually make it possible for them to be working mums? What's the employer's contribution to that?
00:14:14
Speaker
A lot, actually. There's ah a huge impact that an employer can make, and it starts at a ah benefits level would be the most obvious one to start at. Everything from making sure you have a good parental leave policy where both parents can feel the freedom to take that time off without any sort of consequence.
00:14:34
Speaker
Of course, there usually isn't. I mean, there's lots of laws around that consequence now, right? ah In both UK and in America and ah and across the board, but there can be sometimes a cultural consequence that comes with that as well. And so being careful about how women are viewed in terms of their career trajectory is is just as important at an employer level. And I'll talk about, I could talk more about that in a moment, but coming back to to benefits, you know, so parental leave,
00:15:04
Speaker
is huge. Child care is huge. I mean, you you were speaking about, you know, there's a lot more fathers that are staying home and that's true. And my question is, are they staying home because that's what they want? Whether you're a man or a woman, are you staying home because it's what you want or because you because it doesn't make sense financially for you to go back to work because of the cost of child care?
00:15:24
Speaker
And the reality is, child care, across all 50 states, it's become more costly than mortgages and our rent. A lot of parents make a decision to stay home because it simply is more cost effective to them, not because it's actually what they want.
00:15:42
Speaker
And so for us as companies, as again, as cultures, governments, and so forth, actually providing childcare benefits of some kind to support our our parents in being able to return to work and remain in the workforce is is very advantageous.
00:15:59
Speaker
So I suppose what you're saying To begin with is that we have to put the practical things in place to make it possible for someone to return yes after they've had a child, whether they've given birth to that child or they've adopted that child because people in the UK have adoption leave as well. But the practical simple practicalities of childcare, for example, and unless you're earning ah large amount of money, you can end up working in order to pay a childminder.
00:16:30
Speaker
Absolutely. For childcare. Right. So adding, having childcare as one of your employee benefits is going to make it possible for you to retain more people who have had children.
00:16:44
Speaker
And in that, especially in those years where it's like from birth to yes the start of kindergarten. and Exactly. When you're paying for really full-time childcare at that point, if you're going to return back to work full-time.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And again, we're not discounting the fact that there are some parents, women and men that want to stay home, that that's their desire. It's the it's the parent it's the parent experience that they want. And I love that. Like, I i want them to to be able to be able to do that.
00:17:12
Speaker
But we we actually, again, in know in studies that more recent studies that have been done, it's it does show that 97% of women would like to return to work. Only about, I think it's around 82% do. So it's ah there's a pretty big gap because of childcare and because of the cost of what it would take for them to actually return back to their job. It doesn't make financial sense.
00:17:39
Speaker
I see a lot of people almost relying on grandparents to provide that childcare as well. That would be wonderful if we all had if we all had that ability to do that. Yes.
00:17:50
Speaker
It's not ideal from anyone's perspective in the long term, I suspect. Correct. Childcare is one of the big practical issues yeah that an employer can offer as an employee benefit ye that would make it possible for more people to return to work after they've had children.
00:18:10
Speaker
children get older, having parental leave to deal with, for example, the days when child is ill or the child is doing something, which is one of those family type events that it's nice to be there to support them, like in a play, in a competition. Yeah, absolutely. And this would come to another another point I would make about this, that it kind of comes not from the benefits side of this, but a recent study was done ah by Moms First,
00:18:39
Speaker
And they showed, and it was, it was a parental leave study. So they were, they were asking people to give their experience on their own personal parental leave. And they found that what, and it was men and women and what they said across the board, the biggest difference for them in their parental leave experience was their manager.
00:19:03
Speaker
And they found both on the ones that said they had really amazing parental leave experiences and kind of returning to work experiences, they put it onto the manager as being the one that helped them with that.
00:19:15
Speaker
Or the ones that said it wasn't that great and what would have helped would have been having a supportive manager.
Individualized Career Support for Parents
00:19:22
Speaker
So there's something about... Being able to train and have policies that are really geared toward how do you manage somebody on your team that's going through parental leave in a really intentional way.
00:19:37
Speaker
And there's, I think, a couple of things that managers can do. I mean, whether that whether that policy or training exists in your company or not. but And if you are a manager of of of one that is going on parental leave, the first is to make no assumptions.
00:19:51
Speaker
Right. And a lot of women don't actually fear ah the work-life balance and the logistics of managing life after they return from return from leave. Actually, the number one fear that they have is if they're going to be seen as being less ambitious and having less of an edge or will have less opportunity in their job when they return because they've had a kid.
00:20:16
Speaker
And so having those kinds of intentional conversations with ah particularly women, because I'm focusing there not only because it's what my coaching is, but the motherhood ah penalty, the difference, the gap in pay gap, all those things are very real and they're just their're numbers, they're statistics. So we know that, but really having intentional conversations with people your female your female leaders that are going out on parental leave and what they what they want to see when they return, what types of opportunities they want to see, where they want to take their career, and making sure you're having some of that intentional conversation before the kids arrive so that everybody's on the same page and they can return knowing that they will be and feel just as valued because
00:21:02
Speaker
Because there's a plan in place for how they want to take their career trajectory within the company. If we're really talking about retaining them when they return, having a having a very clear trajectory plan over the next 18 months to a couple of years is going to be huge in their desire to stay in the company. As an HR ah professional, then, i am thinking that one of the conversations that I need to have with an expectant mother before she gives birth, and perhaps also with the father as well, is before the child is born, sitting down with people and saying, okay, we know that things can change, not holding you to any commitments or anything, but at this point in time,
00:21:47
Speaker
When you return to work, what sort of things will youth are you thinking that you will need in place in order to carry on in your career? And then almost including that type of conversation in performance reviews with every parent, regardless of the age of their child. Yes, absolutely. There is an element which sort of has been an assumption for a long time, which is you must not ask a parent anything about how being a parent impacts on their ability to do their job.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And that's Western world coverage completely. You must not ask. You must not ask. You must not ask. yeah But if you don't ask and have that constructive conversation about how are we going to manage your responsibilities as a parent in a way which enable you to pursue your career in the way that you want to.
00:22:46
Speaker
yeah And that may mean, i suppose, that you have to say, well, if you didn't have a child, then you'd be doing these sorts of things. and you might get the promotion in two years, because you've got these other responsibilities, which you could apply it to all sorts of other responsibilities that people have away from work, it could take you three years to build up the knowledge and experience to qualify for the promotion.
00:23:10
Speaker
But we're not stopping you from doing it. yep The option to to do it in different ways is there, but we need to have that constructive conversation Really open conversation. Yeah. yeah And learn how to do it.
00:23:24
Speaker
And I think you've just actually identified something that is really important as well. I mean, in saying it's kind of a hush-hush conversation, don't talk about the impact of being a parent once they've become a parent. And yet 100% of people around the world would say being a parent, it impacts your time, and impacts your it impacts your job 100%. We are not separate human beings when we become a parent. you know it's that We don't turn that off.
00:23:52
Speaker
When we get to work in the same way that we don't often turn off our our work brain when we get home, were we're integrated. And so rather than keep it silent, let's just put it out there. Let's talk about what the impact is and how it's going and not make it something that parents where parents feel the need.
00:24:10
Speaker
and women
Career Ambitions and Discrimination
00:24:11
Speaker
in particular feel the need to hide it for because they might be seen as less than less valuable, less committed, you know not as present as their counterparts. It's a challenge for employers and line managers to understand what would be right for each individual and to not group people together because that is the way in which managers are trained. This is what people do. This is how to react to them. This is how to be proactive, all this sort stuff.
00:24:40
Speaker
The big challenge in so many areas is to treat employees as individuals, but also, like you say, not to treat the fact that someone is expecting a child or has become a parent as almost like the elephant in the room.
00:24:57
Speaker
It's not something that we shouldn't talk about. We should perhaps be talking about the practicalities of being a parent and working and practicalities of being a parent and having career ambitions.
00:25:15
Speaker
And what does that mean on all of those fronts? Yes. And it's not a case of making the assumption that, well, actually, this person's now pregnant, so they're going to have a baby, they won't return to work, or when they do return to work, and they won't be up to doing the same sort of things as they were doing before, because that requires staying late or being early or all sorts of various different things.
00:25:39
Speaker
um They'll only have to go out on time in order to pick up a child from school. Making assumptions about people... yeah rather than saying, how do we work your career ambitions into the life that you want to have and how we supportive of achieving that life?
00:25:59
Speaker
There's a almost like a ah tightrope that needs to be walked as well, but in order to make sure that you don't slip over into asking a question or making a statement, that might be interpreted as leading to some form of discrimination.
00:26:15
Speaker
I suppose right both parents and employer need to have the conversation on the basis no one is good going to intentionally say or do anything that would lead to discrimination.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yep, absolutely. And if um an employer isn't bringing up this conversation, you know, I would 100% say to to any expecting parent and mom in particular, bring this up.
00:26:40
Speaker
Talk about what you want. You bring it up in your one-on-ones with your manager whomever. You talk about what kind of experience you want and show your commitment to to your company and So that your value remains high in their eyes as much as you possibly can can promote that. I would I would recommend it.
00:27:02
Speaker
You know, again, i I don't the statistics don't lie. Thirty three percent of women leave their job within 18 months of having their first kid. Now, they might move to another company that feels more flexible or family friendly.
00:27:16
Speaker
A good percentage of them, it's like 18 to 20% take a break for a while. Some of them go part-time in some capacity at their job or at a different job. That's a huge part of the workforce that makes a big shift in their career.
00:27:31
Speaker
right there within 18 months of having their kids. if If companies want to retain women so that they stay in their company, that they move up the ranks in their company, they become leaders in their company, all of which, again, I'd say we're good people that desire would see that happen.
00:27:50
Speaker
We have to be supporting and having really intentional, supportive, open conversations at the time that that motherhood begins. Very important point. Some open minded, forward thinking conversations need to be had.
00:28:04
Speaker
And of course, if someone is feeling, yep, I want to have that conversation, but not quite sure how to start. And they think I'll have a conversation with Rebecca and we'll try and sort that out.
Conclusion and Resources
00:28:17
Speaker
How would people contact you? Yeah, so you can go to my website and learn all about the programs and the work that I do as a coach for working moms. You can go RebeccaOlsonCoaching.com and connect with me there.
00:28:31
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you very much, Rebecca. I've really enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds and certainly given me some food for thought. Thank you very much. Absolutely. Pleasure being here, Michael. Thank you.
00:28:42
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida, and in this episode of The Independent Minds, I have been having a conversation with Rebecca Olson from RebeccaOlsonCoaching.com.
00:28:55
Speaker
Rebecca is also the host of the Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms podcast. You can find more information about both of us at abusida.co.uk. There is a link in the description.
00:29:09
Speaker
Achieving anything in your career is easier when you're healthy, and an important part of staying healthy is knowing the risks early. That is why we recommend the annual health test from York Test.
00:29:22
Speaker
York Tests provide an assessment of 39 different health markers, including cholesterol and diabetes, various vitamins, various organ functions, and a full blood count.
00:29:33
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:29:49
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime via your secure personal wellness hub. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:30:02
Speaker
I am sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Rebecca and I have enjoyed making it. Please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:30:15
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:30:28
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening, and goodbye.