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164- When should vegans let it drop?
28 Plays1 hour ago
Campaigns against organisations, industries- or even individuals- are an important part of any social justice movement. But how do we know when we should bring a campaign to an end- or a pause- and how do we go about it? In this episode Mark, Dominic & Ant look at Animal Rising's campaign against the RSPCA Assured scheme as a starting point, before discussing more widely the question of, "when should we let this drop?"
For context, the RSPCA Assured scheme is detailed here: https://www.rspcaassured.org.uk/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkcm7xdfZjAMV54qDBx3GGClxEAAYASAAEgJYOvD_BwE
Animal Rising's website can be found here: https://www.animalrising.org/
And one of their press releases from the campaign last year can be found here: https://www.animalrising.org/post/rspca-scandal
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Mark & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Co-hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, everybody. Now, just between you and me, I find the trouble with vegans is they never know when to let something drop. My name is Dominic.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm joined in this episode by Anthony and by Mark. So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for.
00:00:24
Speaker
Brrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere.
Challenges Faced by Vegans
00:00:29
Speaker
We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me, oh no.
00:00:39
Speaker
Hang on a minute, you always pick the...
00:00:46
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be all alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:01
Speaker
No, I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hi, everyone. My name is Mark. Thank you so much for tuning in, especially all you good folk from down in Southern Hemisphere.
00:01:13
Speaker
I'm talking particularly about my homeland of New Zealand.
Listener Acknowledgements
00:01:16
Speaker
Greetings, one and all. Absolutely, yeah. Kudos to anyone listening whilst sitting upside down. That's incredible. I don't i don't know how you guys manage it. My name is Anthony... um And when I'm not making really bad dad jokes, I love being here on Enough of the Falafel.
Format of the Vegan Talk Show
00:01:34
Speaker
Now, if you've not listened to any of our shows before, this is one of our vegan talk shows. We pick one particular topic to discuss. Sometimes it's something that's been from the news, but very often it's something that's just a general issue that affects vegans or or the animal rights issue.
00:01:49
Speaker
community. We do also have a vegan week show where we we look at the news, um but they're all, all of our previous episodes will be available wherever you got this one from. So go onto your podcast feed and have a look back because there's some really good stuff on there, as well as today's show that is also, of course, going to be really, really good. Yeah, good stuff indeedy, good stuff
Animal Rising's Campaign Shift
00:02:12
Speaker
indeed. So today we are here to discuss when to drop something, specifically a campaign.
00:02:21
Speaker
So we got thinking about this when we were sent the following by Carlos. Carlos is one of our fellow contributors to Enough of the Falafel. So Carlos was ah ah sending us stuff with about Animal Rising and Animal Rising's campaign against the RSPCA Assured Scheme.
00:02:44
Speaker
So, ah Mark, ah could you give us a ah bit of a basic rundown on what the RSPCA Assured scheme is? Yeah, a very concise rundown would be that it's a very thin fig leaf to cover up the horrible ugly bollocks of animal agriculture but according to the RSPCA it's a step in the right direction but let's let's ah let's see what Animal Rising have to say about this. Could i quickly quickly interject? i've We'll put the link in the show notes. You can go on the ah RSPCA Assured website and on their homepage they've got one of these like
00:03:19
Speaker
cool little graphics that's showing all the different things, their assurances. So, um, enriched living conditions, and there's a tick next to like a ball hanging off a piece of string or whatever.
00:03:30
Speaker
There are two that particularly interest me. The more living space one, there is a tick next to a ruler with centimeters on it. And I thought that was particularly telling because actually it shows that, yeah, you're not making any difference if you're, if you're arguing for a few extra centimeters or millimeters.
00:03:45
Speaker
for animals. But also humane slaughter has got a tick and it's just got a picture of a lorry. just I'm not quite sure what humane slaughter, what, that you're going to run over the chickens in a van, are you? I don't understand. They couldn't come up with a a good enough picture for your humane slaughter. Anyway, I'm digressing. I'm falafeling too early. You came up with a really good, concise definition there, Mark, and I've spent twice as long getting together.
00:04:15
Speaker
to um to To add to that, and the the the the very last little tick on the RSPCA's website is traceability for peace of mind. The only three words that make sense when talking about this is the peace of mind bit, the last three words.
00:04:31
Speaker
That's what this is all about, to give consumers peace of mind. an illusion that what they are buying somehow isn't cruel. Right. So let's go on to this statement that Animal Rising have have had to say. And spoiler alert, they are basically deciding to stop their campaign against the RSPCA Assured
Achievements and Strategy of Animal Rising
00:04:53
Speaker
Scheme. So we're going to take take turns to read bits of this out because it is quite a long story.
00:04:57
Speaker
document I will kick the ball off here. They start off by saying, hey, everyone. So sharing an update on the direction of Animal Rising, primarily about why we are stopping focusing on the RSPCA Assured campaign and pivoting to focusing on factory farms.
00:05:18
Speaker
There'll be more communications coming out in not too long and opportunities to talk about, but wanted to share here first, as so many of us have given a lot to the campaign over the last few months, so obviously have a stake and an interest.
00:05:32
Speaker
I think we all know, but Animal Rising's purpose is to end factory farming and build a plant-based food system in its place. The key reason for the shift is that we believe by changing direction, we are able to increase the chance of us making progress toward our shared mission. The goal of the ah RSPCA campaign was to enter into a transformative conflict with the ah RSPCA to transform them to leading the way on animal farming by working towards a plant-based transition which included dropping the RSPCA-assured scheme.
00:06:11
Speaker
And that this transformative conflicts would play out in the national level in the public domain, undermining the welfare myth and also across the animal movement to usher in a new phase of the animal movement where we don't accept the status quo.
00:06:28
Speaker
We were also aiming to build the power of the animal movement by getting many organisations working towards a shared goal and building up our volunteer capacity t so we can go on to win bigger and better things in the future.
00:06:43
Speaker
with this in mind here are some of the key events over the last year trained up to 50 volunteer investigators and conducted the biggest farm investigation in the history of the uk releasing 45 farms in one go in june 2024 thank you to all the investigators working with the newly created for charlie campaign that was named after one of the pigs rescued from an ah rspca farm um That was aiming to get 250 organisations and well-known people to sign an open letter calling for the RSPCA to drop the assured scheme and lead the way.
00:07:20
Speaker
The RSPCA's president, Chris Packham, and two vice presidents, Caroline Lucas and Brian May, all resigned, resulting in number one news stories, which included Sky News showing slaughterhouse footage on primetime TV.
00:07:36
Speaker
Hundreds of volunteer campaigns were campaigners were involved, including 250 separate billboard and poster orders in 2024 covering the UK. I heard from multiple people across the UK that they saw the RSPCA posters in various towns and cities.
00:07:52
Speaker
So I think we really did cover the country. Also, the branch campaigns resulted in nearly 100 branches being outreached. Thank you to everyone who took part in the branches.
00:08:05
Speaker
and postering. Several groups independently organised supermarket actions, including the now infamous trolley barge in the supermarket going viral. Thank you to everyone involved.
00:08:16
Speaker
Release of a three slaughterhouse investigation resulting in the RSPCA temporarily suspending all three slaughterhouses and one being permanently dropped.
00:08:28
Speaker
And there's more. Putting a Wallace face on the King Charles portrait, which was the UK and US's number one news story for two hours, knocking off the Conservative manifesto announcement from the top spot.
00:08:40
Speaker
So we think we can confidently say we were part of the Conservative Party's downfall. The RSPCA implementing 100% plant-based catering at internal and external events, about time.
00:08:53
Speaker
The RSPCA removing meat and dairy recipes from their website. Amazing they were there in the first place. The RSPCA CEO and head of policy both resigning. A large number of other organizations and people piling in, including We The Free, doing RSPCA-related outreach.
00:09:11
Speaker
Matthew Glover applying to be RSPCA CEO. TV personality Dale Vince speaking in support, George Monbiot writing a page-long opinion piece in The Guardian, calling out the ah RSPCA, AdFreeCities launching a complaint about misleading advertising and much, much more. So, looking back, we achieved a hell of a lot, learned hell of a lot, much of it the hard way.
00:09:36
Speaker
Going forwards, we aim to no longer focus on the RSPCA for the following reasons. The RSPCA CEO and Head of Policy are no longer there, so any meaningful change in direction will not be possible until their new CEO is in place.
00:09:57
Speaker
We feel we have applied maximum pressure to the ah RSPCA and now should give them the breathing room to be able to make changes. We think it's unlikely they will suddenly drop the assured scheme, but do think it's likely they will have a meat reduction plant-based transition strategy in the near future.
00:10:17
Speaker
We came to be sympathetic with the hole they feel they are trying to fill with the assured scheme, even though we disagree with how much they run it, ah for example, marketing and legitimising the industry.
00:10:30
Speaker
Looking back, we wish we had focused on a disassociate from the assured scheme rather than drop. Going forwards, we think the common sense answer for farm animal welfare is mandatory government labelling and control of imports, which do not mean UK farming standards.
00:10:49
Speaker
This is not our focus as a campaigning organisation. continuing the ah rspca campaign indefinitely risks diminishing returns while also increasing negative side effects which include going too far in the division across the movement the campaign has had massive support from many in the animal movement but also many mission focused people in the movement were against it particularly those who think a welfare strategy can help fight against animal farming In the long run, we need to run campaigns which we can build an even bigger coalition behind, ah one that we're going to win.
00:11:28
Speaker
ah We feel that with everything we've learned, we're now ready to build something even better. So going forward, a very, very quick summary of the direction. We aim to focus our campaign on factory farms, which is an issue with up to 90% of public support and broad alignment across the movement.
00:11:48
Speaker
More specifically, we're going to focus our campaigning energy to optimise to fight new factory farms across the whole of the UK. Currently, a vast majority of new factory farm applications get approved and then built, and we will be focusing on bringing that down to 0% getting approved.
00:12:07
Speaker
And then, once that number is at zero, we can then start targeting existing factory farms. Obviously, there'll be more to it than that, but just giving you an idea of the direction.
00:12:18
Speaker
Sorry if this has been a small surprise to some people, but I also hope I've communicated the logic. Those of us in the full-time Animal Rising team are always trying our best to answer the question of what is in the interest of our shared mission, and that is, of course, linked to listening, working with, and learning from the hundreds of people who were involved across the network.
00:12:40
Speaker
Hope to build in ways to feed in soon, perhaps feedback forms and one-to-one calls. Always open to feedback and input. So please feel free to reach out or to reply to this message.
00:12:52
Speaker
I hope to speak to and see many of you soon. Ben. So that's the statement from Ben from Animal Rising. So Anthony and Mark. We're going to have our reaction to that. Anthony, how do you respond to that statement?
00:13:08
Speaker
I think like we're in a really lucky position to be able to see the that the kind of inner workings of a campaigning group. That's what Animal Rising are. That's what they exist to do. And just to start off, I'd i'd say it it looks it looks admirable the the way that they're spelling this out. I don't know whether every campaigning organisation would do so um to quite this detail.
Reflecting on Advocacy Efforts
00:13:33
Speaker
I mean, this is a message to its campaigners. This isn't a press release.
00:13:38
Speaker
And I'm sure there are people who support Animal Rising's work out. who won't necessarily know this message yet, but it it it seems like a lot of thought has been put into it.
00:13:50
Speaker
In terms of like what we're talking about today is sort of when to drop a campaign and that sort of thing. I think it's interesting that it it seems like bits that were loud for me were the the sort of bits saying, oh, actually, we've learned a few things the hard way We wished we'd focused on things in this sort of way with hindsight.
00:14:12
Speaker
But nonetheless, we did all these all these things here. I really like that reflective way of going about things. I think that if we're not reflecting on our advocacy and our campaigning, then we're not going about it in a particularly good way. So I really like that.
00:14:28
Speaker
And I'm interested in what you two both think as well, because there's part of me that thinks... Actually, if you don't fully follow through with these things, then then you risk your work being undone.
00:14:41
Speaker
But I do understand the whole thing about diminishing returns. And I wonder whether they think they've squeezed all the juice out of this that they can. But ah interested to hear what what you two think as well. I think it sounds fair to say that when people have stepped down and there's going to be a new CEO in charge to kind of give the breathing space for that. And I also think that they have recognised there are other things for which they wish to fight. So for me, it sounds fair.
00:15:14
Speaker
I always come on these shows every time with one opinion, though, and then I listen to you learned folks share your views. I'm like, Oh, yeah, yeah. hadn't thought of that. So, yeah, maybe Mark has a very different take.
00:15:27
Speaker
What's your take, Mark? I think what Animal Rising are doing, i wasn't aware of all the stuff they had done to pressure the RSPCA. I think it's absolutely wonderful. I think they're making a good decision. If you can't go through, then try going round. it's It's a bit headbanging to continue at something if you think there's going to be either diminished returns or you've said your piece or you you you you admit failure. I think that's it's it's okay to do that. um Obviously, when you when you look at some of the most successful campaigns in the last sort of couple of decades, I'm thinking the closure of a series of animal breeding campaigns.
00:16:05
Speaker
centers that were for animals for labs. I'm thinking of a consort beagles, the Hillgrove farm. They all closed down after sustained mass pressure. And it took that sort of laser like focus through a period of time against enormous pressure to to see the mission through.
00:16:24
Speaker
Having said that, Animal Rising have done their bit. and I think standing back now and allowing the RSPCA to reflect on their position is interesting. And and the RSPCA, for all their faults, they aren't the enemy.
00:16:39
Speaker
The enemy are the factory farmers and the fox hunters and the politicians that allow them... to to do those things. So ah taking on ah sort of an organization that is broadly speaking our side, at least to so to a certain extent, it was um it it shouldn't be the the ah focus solely of a group like Animal Rising. They're far too valuable out combating real animal abuse.
00:17:04
Speaker
The RSPCA have always had this problem. They've always been the brakes on the wheels of progress ever since their inception in 1822 ah by mp ah Richard Martin, who hes he himself was was a fox hunter. So a fox hunter started the RSPCA.
00:17:21
Speaker
So it was born with this fault line going through it. And it it erupts now and again. um it erupted in the 70s and 80s when you had ex-ALF militants fresh out of prison vying for control of the RSPCA council alongside fox hunters who were also trying to get control of the council and the millions of pounds that they have at their disposal.
00:17:43
Speaker
So the RSPCA has always been riven and fractious and hypocritical and ah always had this fault line, as I say, in it. So this is one more special of it. I think the mask has been pulled down now and this notion of RSPCA approved welfare farms is being exposed for for the nonsense that it is.
00:18:04
Speaker
And ah as such, the RSPCA should now at this point reconsider their entire... stance on animal welfare and pivot to a plant-based system.
00:18:15
Speaker
I think that's imperative. they They will be the last organization to do so. They are the conservative party of the animal rights movement. So when and if they do, it means every other animal rights or animal welfare group has done it already, i would say.
00:18:29
Speaker
I feel like, Dominic, you you mentioned like the the fact that you know because the CEO and other senior people sort of out of position at the moment in the organization, it is a good time to to pause and and allow them to reflect.
00:18:44
Speaker
Like as you've said there, Mark, I wonder actually, I mean, i'm I'm not one to normally advocate for threatening people or whatever, but there could actually be a strategic argument for saying, right, we're going to lay off now. You've seen what we can do. You can see what damage like we can do.
00:18:59
Speaker
Go away and have a think about this. And actually... if If things don't change in the future, we can just turn the switch back on again and and bring all this negative press. I mean, like that i'm I'm squirming a little bit, even suggesting it, because like I say, that sort of East End gangster way of going about things isn't really in my spirit, but just from a strategic point of view that I can see the logic there.
00:19:22
Speaker
I'm interested. I'd be interested and in knowing your two reactions to this. I think that just in that very last little paragraph and in that message, there is the sentiment that says, sorry, if this has been a small surprise to some people.
00:19:38
Speaker
but I hope I've communicated the logic. That does speak to the fact that some folk will have been campaigning very hard for this, will be emotionally invested in this single issue campaign.
00:19:50
Speaker
One that I completely back. I think that's a very worthy target. You know, the RSPCA basically saying, yeah, you can kill animals in this way. That's fine. and I think that's a great target, but people will be emotionally invested in that.
00:20:01
Speaker
And then to be told, no, we're not doing that anymore. that is that is a difficulty, isn't it? And it it kind of raises the whole question of, like, actually in a campaign, when is the right time to stop? Like, do you need do you think you need to know when you're going to stop before you start? No, I don't think you can know when you're going to stop before you start because we can't control other people's actions. We put forwards our leverage. We put forwards our arguments.
00:20:31
Speaker
And we put forwards our energy and then we have to see what happens really. You know, life is full of left turns and surprises. So I think it's really hard to um to do things. And also, you know, ah Ben, the the guy who who wrote the statement, who's who's sort of ah fronting this decision, you know,
00:20:54
Speaker
I mean, surely there's not anything to stop anyone who was campaigning for this issue to go on and take further action by setting up their own groups.
00:21:09
Speaker
You know, that's, you know, Benny's not saying, I forbid anybody from talking about that he's saying that he's you know that that that's not animal rising's current focus yeah i i do ah i do agree i suppose what i'm getting at is you could become quite easily disenfranchised with an organization if and i'm not saying this is what animal rising have done you're fully on board with the campaign and then all of a sudden they say no we're not doing that anymore and you don't necessarily agree with that that that could be quite difficult and you could lose a lot of goodwill and a lot of momentum obviously by explaining this logic they're minimizing that aren't they but i do think i mean you know mark you've you've done lots of direct action and and subbing and things like that if all of a sudden the organization said
00:21:59
Speaker
and we're not doing that anymore that that could feel undermining if it's done in the wrong way and i don't think animal rising have done it in the wrong way here but but handling that sensitively is important isn't it yeah yeah absolutely uh i think first and foremost uh anyone uh embarking on uh career in animal rights or campaigning for animal welfare has to be aware of the risks and chances sort of involved in this. And one of them is that a campaign may have run its course before it's actually succeeded in its and its aim.
00:22:32
Speaker
And if that's the case objectively, then I guess without sounding harsh about it, but I guess ego has to be left at the door around this. Sure, a lot of people have put in a lot of energy, but if it isn't working, sometimes the last people to realize that are the people at the cold face because they aren't stepping back and seeing the bigger picture.
00:22:52
Speaker
So if if objectively Ben is spot on in his assessment, and i would say he is, then people need to be willing to pivot and change accordingly.
00:23:05
Speaker
And no campaign lasts contact with reality for longer than five minutes, right? You embark on something and you don't know what the reaction is going to be exactly. And there will be surprises.
00:23:15
Speaker
So you have to be able to react to them as they happen in the moment. And one of the reactions might be stepping back for a while or permanently and putting the the the attention somewhere else.
00:23:26
Speaker
And if that's the case, then the the point is, is to help the animals. It's not to appease our emotions around things. Yeah, I think you made some really good points there, Mark. And I'm i'm imagining a campaigning organisation almost deliberately appointing a small group of, let's say, five people who deliberately are not going to be involved in the campaign.
00:23:49
Speaker
And their job is to call it in terms of like, right, stop now. because I can see from my vantage point, from my perspective, that the public isn't on side anymore, or you've got what you can get from this, or you're getting too emotionally involved with this and actually too disconnected whatever. And their job is to kind of turn the button on or off.
00:24:09
Speaker
Maybe that's a bit too fanciful, but i I think you raise a lot of good points there in in terms of how the campaign can become the thing. And we we we see it in in hobbies, like a lot of people, particularly in the UK, I think it's a particularly UK centric thing. They'll they'll get mad into their hobbies and they'll get so into it that they almost stop enjoying their hobby.
00:24:29
Speaker
and and And it's all about controlling it and deciding who does this and who does what. And they need someone to say, do you remember why you did this in the first place? It's because you actually quite enjoy dry stone walling or ah ah building model airplanes or what whatever it is. And and that perspective is cannot often only come from the outside. Yes. Yes, that's right.
00:24:48
Speaker
Animal Rising have been really good at communicating what their intents have been all the way through.
Transparency in Advocacy Campaigns
00:24:56
Speaker
I wonder in what... you know, how much that's a sort of general thing with just the rise of um social media, the rise of Instagram, the rise of people documenting all the inner cogs within wheels.
00:25:13
Speaker
Is it necessary to have such an ongoing transparency with the general public when doing a campaign? Could could it be argued that in some ways that's maybe even dividing energy from the focus of achieving the goals. If you're, if you're updating people so regularly, is it a good thing that they let us know what they're up to? No, I think, I think having a democratic, open, transparent organization as animal rising are is really imperative. And it gives people a chance to express themselves and all that. ah
00:25:47
Speaker
I really liked their, their idea, their description of and transformative conflict. I've never heard, ah that description before it's a very interesting way of putting things one thing the animal rights movement has never been shy of is conflict and it does attract people who are prepared to put up with conflict and be sort of quite antagonistic i think it's it's it's an important part of the campaign so people like animal rising are are fantastic really at they and they came from animal rebellion as far as i understand so that they're the modern day i suppose how greenpeace would have been seen
00:26:21
Speaker
back in their sort of spiky days in the sort of the early 70s and stuff they're they're they're fresh they're they're dynamic they're uh they're they're prepared to go out and take the shit that they will get from the state and the media and from and from the public for standing up for animals um so i think they're they're ah they're a wonderful organization the uh the thing that i that i read out during this was the putting a wallace face on the king charles portrait Do you guys know about this? I hadn't heard about this. and i had to look it up to see what they were all about.
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, ah this painting of Prince Charles and this stuff. Yeah, yeah. we we've We've reported on it ah several times, actually, because I think it was... I think we might have voted it as our biggest impact campaign of the year in our our news wrap of 2024. So, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, it's really good. I mean, it's stuff like that. It's sort of creative...
00:27:13
Speaker
inventive disruption that that can really harness the world. I mean, the world's media in this case for two hours, you know, which in this day and age is brilliant, you know? So Animal Rising show what a small determined group of people who are creative thinkers can do and they're an inspiration.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah, I would, um to answer your question, Dominic, I would say that a collective group of people, i.e. more than just one person working together for social justice, I think it's imperative that you go about your strategies in an open, transparent, dialogic way so that you're having discussions.
00:27:52
Speaker
um I don't think there can be a ah sort of dictatorship when it comes to ah social justice issues. um that that That's obviously dichotomy. It doesn't work.
00:28:02
Speaker
I mean, Dominic, with your poetry, you choose to to do it in a collaborative way. You you will put out you know, your latest draft of a poem on social media and and invite people to give suggestions or to to pass comment on it.
00:28:17
Speaker
Now, if you didn't do that, I wouldn't say, or or poets that don't do that, I wouldn't say that that's wrong. um I think the way that you do it is is brilliant and inspired and it draws on the wisdom and power of of lots of people.
00:28:31
Speaker
But actually, if you're just doing one thing for yourself, I think there can be an argument sometimes for saying, I'm just going to plow on and do this because it does slow things down. I think that's what you were getting at in your question. Does it slow it down?
00:28:45
Speaker
to, you know, they're having to explain themselves and to publicly reflect and invite comment and things like that. I think if you're one person doing something, particularly if it's not for social justice, then then no, you don't have to justify your decisions for anything. And actually, when I was running a business, there were times when I just thought, you know what, I don't need to explain why we're doing this. I don't need to explain why we've changed our opening hours for to open at 11 o'clock instead of nine o'clock. Like, I don't need to explain that. I will, ah you know, if I'm in a good mood to my customers because I owe a living to to my customers. But but actually, it's my business. And now if I want to open at 11 o'clock or to stop serving this product, then I will, you know, it i don't have to. But in in the case of a campaigning group working for social justice, though it slows things down, though at times I'm sure the people at Animal Rising and any other organization that runs
00:29:37
Speaker
things in this way, it will be a real ball ache at times to be like, oh God, do we really have to respond to Jeff's email? God's sake, he doesn't have to go on. but but But that's the way to do it because it's social justice, you know? So as if we...
00:29:52
Speaker
drift into patterns of hierarchy and dominance and and and patriarchy and things like that. we're We're creating the problems that we're trying to solve. So though it will take more time and more resources, I do think it is the way to do it. And it draws in the power of the many.
00:30:09
Speaker
You know, it's it's a brilliant collective. i've I've not been involved with Animal Rising, but when Extinction Rebellion were occupying a big chunk of of London, or it certainly felt like it, about for five, six years ago, I went down and and and saw the evidence of of these dialogic, that I think they called them like daily parliaments they had. And it was basically just like a big old meeting that anyone could go to and anyone could influence the conversation in the direction that things were going. And there was very deliberately not a leader.
00:30:41
Speaker
There might be someone sharing the discussion. But there wasn't a leader because it it was drawing in the power and the wisdom and the resources of of the many rather than just relying on one figurehead at the top. and that's And that's the kind of justice I like. A lot of the older school animal welfare slash rights organisations like the RSPCA,
00:31:03
Speaker
ah the League Against Cruel Sports, BUAV and organisations like that. A lot of them were heavily criticised for having very top-down dictatorships where the membership, the Commonwealth Garden membership didn't really have a say in much of the direction of of these groups and they were quite um middle class and white and didn't really represent the membership that they had in terms of their diversity and so on. So it's really good to have ah the the new upcoming groups like Animal Rising and like Extinction Rebellion was, is ah to be ultra democratic because you sidestep problems created by top down heavy organisations.
00:31:45
Speaker
and and And I think that is going to lead to organisations to come back to our sort of subject matter here. It's going to lead to organisations reflecting and saying, actually, this campaign that we've been working earnestly on might have run its course. We might need to bring this to an end.
00:32:01
Speaker
um And actually, we might have made a few mistakes along the way. But like that's that's human, isn't it? And that's, you know, that's that's that's better than a I am going to name Ingrid Newkirk and Peter. Like, you know, they're they're very unapologetic about everything. And sometimes that will get stuff done really directly.
00:32:19
Speaker
But actually, I think my opinion would be that that Peter could have a mirror held up to them a bit more often than than they are. and And to be a bit more reflective and to decide, maybe this campaign isn't the best or whatever.
00:32:33
Speaker
I remember once reading, it was a number of years back, by an anarchist publishing house over in the USA called Crime Think. And they did ah an analysis of how social movements ebb and flow.
00:32:46
Speaker
I think the name of the piece was called After the Crest of the Wave or After the Wave or something like this. And it described how... ah using historical examples, the civil rights movements and the women's suffragette and the anti-war movements in Vietnam, these movements and other movements that that are not necessarily social movements, that they they they ebb and flow over time. There is a tendency for people who start with these movements or who get involved in these movements at the beginning that it's a like a linear thing, that we will go on one straight line until we're dead or we've achieved our objective. What happens in reality is that there's sort of a curve.
Evolution of Social Movements
00:33:20
Speaker
There's a
00:33:21
Speaker
ah growing rise the movement until it peaks and then for whatever reason, reasons, it will steadily diminish and it will be replaced by other movements with different names but with very similar or the same objectives.
00:33:34
Speaker
So it isn't just one straight line like a cannonball going towards a wall. It's a wave. It comes and goes. And to look at it that way is a lot less head-wrecking because that's the way that things generally tend to happen.
00:33:49
Speaker
But the expectation is that it's one straight line with with with no coming back. As soon as we're on the on the up, we'll always be on the up. And nothing's like that. nothing Nothing lasts forever, including social movements.
00:34:01
Speaker
Well, thank you, Mark. And thank you, Anthony. And indeed... As always, thank you to all our listeners for listening. We started the show by giving a big shout out to our Southern Hemisphere listeners.
00:34:14
Speaker
I, as a Manchester man, am thrilled to look at our stats that we're getting more and more and more ah Northwest listeners all the time. That's really joyful. I'm so happy here.
00:34:27
Speaker
that people tune in because I know how much it means to all of us recording these shows. um We love ah to hear what you think of what we do. So there is definitely something you could do for us as a very small favour.
00:34:45
Speaker
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00:35:10
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help. Big cheers to Mark. Big, big cheers to Anthony. And big, big cheers to all our
Listener Engagement and Contact Information
00:35:27
Speaker
listeners. We love hearing from people.
00:35:29
Speaker
So if you'd like to get in touch with us, please do. Our email address is enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Enough of the falafel is all one word.
00:35:42
Speaker
Send us over an email. Share with us your thoughts. And the next edition of Enough of the Falafel will be on Monday, 21st of April with me, Mark, Kate and Ant. And it will be a Vegan Week episode, which is our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news. Anyway, that is enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Dominic.
00:36:08
Speaker
For your contributions, so thanks everyone listening. i have been Anthony and you've all been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:36:21
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplat.com.
00:36:36
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:37:02
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:37:23
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from