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158- Should vegans be 'conscious consumers'?
2 Playsin 3 days
How do you feel about your new vegan pal, Cynthia, who is into fast fashion, is a Coca Cola shareholder and drives around a 4x4 on the weekends just for fun?
In this episode, Elena, Mark & Ant explore how compassion & ethics interplay with other areas of our lives, away from animal rights. Can you be vegan and not recycle? Does everything you own need to be second hand? And now we think about it, what about you other vegan work colleague, Jeff the Nazi?
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Elena, Mark & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. So, you're vegan are you, but do you still use plastic? And what about your clothes? Do you do you buy them new or second-hand? and And what about your furniture?
00:00:12
Speaker
I'm Anthony and for this episode I'm also joined by Mark and Elena. We are going to be talking about buying habits and lifestyle things that might not be to do with veganism.
00:00:24
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Take your lab grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:43
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick.
00:00:51
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be all alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:06
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hi everyone, and my name is Mark and welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Hello everyone, this is Elena. Thank you for being at this episode of Vegan Talk where we discuss one topic as a debate from a vegan perspective instead of reviewing animal rights related news as we do at our Vegan Week episode.
00:01:27
Speaker
Anyway, if you'd like to listen or revisit previous episodes, they are all available at your podcast feed. Absolutely, but for today we are here to talk about consumerism, what we buy, what we do in our lifestyle, but not necessarily the vegan bits.
00:01:46
Speaker
So if to to give some examples, if we if we get the ball rolling, Mark, I'll come to you first and then Elena, you can do the same and all I'll jump on board afterwards. Can you think of any examples of things that you do in your life that are kind of almost done in a vegan style, but are not actually to do with animal rights?
Ethical Consumerism and Boycotting
00:02:06
Speaker
So maybe something that you you buy a specific product or specific service instead of another one through because of a conscientious reason or through being compassionate or or something that you don't do for similar reasons. So there are examples of that in your life.
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think the most obvious one that jumps to my mind is not buying anything made by Nestle for human rights issues as opposed to animal rights issues.
00:02:33
Speaker
When I found out about what they were doing, what they had done in the past by dressing staff up to look like doctors essentially and going around to illiterate women in Sub-Saharan Africa and tiny villages and recommending that they feed their newborns Nestle products and therefore contributing to millions of children's deaths through poor quality drinking water.
00:02:56
Speaker
When I found out about this It did a number of things. It cemented my attitude towards capitalism, which I think essentially is what we're talking about here. And it made me despise Nestlรฉ the same way as I despise, say, McDonald's or KFC that we were talking about recently. So yeah so the Nestlรฉ book, which, and it isn't just me, it was quite ah it was quite a big thing in the 70s and 80s. In fact, they were condemned by the World Health Organization on a number of occasions for but for these practices.
00:03:24
Speaker
I don't think they do that anymore, but they've never apologized for what they've done. They're one of these companies that embody the sort of at the extremes of capitalism, really.
00:03:36
Speaker
If you were to hold up a bogeyman of kind and the evil spirit of capitalism, it be it would would look something like Nestle. okay So yeah, that would be the most obvious one for me. and And so that's ah that's a boycott.
00:03:49
Speaker
That's choosing not to do anything. Yes, essentially, yeah. Yeah. ah Are there examples of things where you might choose, i mean, we could say you you could choose to buy a product that you could buy from Nestle, but you you choose to buy those. Are there examples where you are sort of proactively choosing to buy something or use something from one person or from one provider over another?
00:04:10
Speaker
ah Just just ah briefly again on the on the Nestle issue, there was a get out clause where if you shoplifted the said item, it was okay to consume it as long as it was vegan, even if it said Nestle on it.
00:04:22
Speaker
so I'm not saying I ah shoplifted it, I'm not condemning or condoning that, but that was the get out clause for anarchists everywhere. In terms of being more proactive, yeah, I remember when I was living in the UK, there was a company called Ecocity or something like that, who were Are are are this still around? This was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah so gotro um So in terms of energy providers, yeah, I would go straight to so someone who was a lot more along my line of thinking, you know, so in terms of energy providers, certainly, i handily avoided ever needing a car when I was living in Ireland or the UK until I moved over here i didn't have a driving license until i was 40. so choing choosing to ride instead of but buy a car and buy into that system i think is a what is a wonderful thing as well so making changes your lifestyle are highly important but ah also the bigger system has to be addressed as well i guess we can talk about this a little bit later but it isn't just down to the individual it's also a bigger political
00:05:24
Speaker
struggle cool thank you for that mark what about you elena there are there conscious choices you make in your life other than the vegan ones yeah actually well for example in my case i try to do not have any impulsive buying like for example people they buy tons of clothes just like a like a way to spend the afternoon i i try to not do that well i don't do that actually i just buy i just buy things when they are necessary i don't think buying as a ah so as
Conscious Lifestyle Choices
00:05:56
Speaker
a hobby.
00:05:56
Speaker
And for example, in my case, I try to buy clothes secondhand whenever possible. And if I have to buy something new because I couldn't find it secondhand, can happen. I try to buy it from, or Spanish, because I'm from Spanish France, because I'm living in Spain, not because of international issues. I mean, if I were living in the UK, it would be from the UK. and Or if I have to buy, for example, I have to buy some underwear and I have to buy from a main chain store i always look at the label because i did don't have enough with my food so i always look at the labels and they had to be they had to be manufactured in europe i don't buy anything like it's made in india sri lanka bangladesh
00:06:38
Speaker
I mean, we all know what's happening there. And for example, my case, I try not to do that because I know the workers, they are not being treated fairly. So that's my, that will be my conscious choice. Yeah, that sounds like they are kind of like rules that you you stick to. would Would that be fair to say? Yeah, yeah, actually.
00:07:00
Speaker
and For example, in terms of clothing, because thankfully I don't, I mean, I can, I can, if I need, for example, if I need a pair of jeans and I cannot find anyone maybe in Spain or Portugal, I can wait a year to find another couple. I mean, I don't, I have, I have just one pair of jeans, but I have another pair of pants.
00:07:19
Speaker
Maybe they are not jeans, but I can, I can be, leave. with I mean, it's not like a real necessity for for me. So for example, some people they think it's an extreme necessity, but we all have more clothes that we ah we need for sure.
00:07:34
Speaker
Maybe you need maybe some socks, that's fair enough, but you can leave, you can wait one week or maybe a month to get another couple of socks that you can find.
00:07:45
Speaker
For example, but in my case, underwear, I buy it in a really famous... supermarket here in Spain is not not fancy, whether whether but it's they are made in Portugal at least with cotton. So it's okay.
00:07:58
Speaker
They are not extremely fancy, but they are just plain black. It's fine for me. So it does the trick. So that's just like knowing, just reading the label. Like, do you know, when you see like something is made, like I said, in India or Bangladesh, you know how has become to live. So,
00:08:20
Speaker
I mean, i prefer to to go home empty-handed than going home with something that I know or I can imagine how how it was made. So... I'm happier that way. Yeah.
00:08:33
Speaker
And I saved some money, I have to say. So it's a win-win. Absolutely. Cool. Thank you for that. So as you as you were describing that, Elena, I was reflecting on the fact that I i don't actually know of any like hard and fast rules that I stick to myself.
00:08:53
Speaker
um in terms of trying to make conscientious, compassionate choices outside of veganism. There's lots of things that I try and be in the habit of, and I can detail a few of them now, but i wouldn't I can't put my finger on any that are a hard and fast rule. So, you know, i I've chosen to buy an electric car, but I don't i don't cycle everywhere.
00:09:17
Speaker
For example, i at at the moment, but my partner and I, we get like a veg box delivered and it's one of these where they're kind of um giving us the odd wonky vegetables.
00:09:28
Speaker
So, you know, reduced packaging and, you know, it's it's saving these things from being wasted. I, you know what I try not to buy things that are in single-use plastic of if avoidable.
00:09:41
Speaker
It's a similar way to Nestle, Mark. um I do like carbonated drinks sometimes with caffeine, but I will try not to buy Coca-Cola products. Steal them. Yeah. when you were saying that When you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah but aren't they still going to replace the product? So, like, is isn't it not the supermarket that's losing out there?
00:10:06
Speaker
Oh, you've exploded now, Anthony. I'd steal from Coca-Cola's central warehouse, of course. um but So yeah, there's there's lots of things like that that I will do. And kind of similar to what you were saying, Elena, in terms of like clothes and and um you didn't use the the word minimalist, but like i I'm not somebody that's generally motivated by having lots of things.
00:10:29
Speaker
But again, it's not like a hard and fast rule. So I don't know that I could put out a, ah you know, for the rest of my life, I will always do this. I think think veganism is the only thing sort of way that I have a hard and fast rule for things but there's there's lots of things where I'll you know try to try to be more conscientious with what I'm doing some of them stick and some of them will will waver a little bit or I'll I'll be like that annoying flexitarian that says like I i eat vegan mostly And you just think, oh, why don't you always recycle perfectly? Or whatever it is I'm transgressing once once in a blue moon.
00:11:07
Speaker
So again, if i if we could do another round. So I'll come back to you first, Mark. The the things away from veganism that you you try and uphold some sort of moral standard for for for your behavior. Does it come from the same place as veganism?
00:11:23
Speaker
Or are there some differences in terms of how works? carries it itself
Capitalism Critique and Ethical Labels
00:11:28
Speaker
out? Like what what are the overlaps and and the differences? The overlap is is almost almost complete really. If it was the Venn diagram, it would be a circle imposed in a circle really. um So my concern for human rights is coming from the same place and is more or less the same thing as my concern about animal rights. They're two sides of the same coin, really.
00:11:49
Speaker
In fact, I would like to see products with, as well as information about, say, the... i would like to see products with the conditions of the labor force that produced that product made available on the product itself, the way we have the list of ingredients and stuff.
00:12:07
Speaker
and whether it was produced in it. and you know They have that the rating system for fort four out of five stars or the traffic lights sort of thing. So you can see at a glance and whether it was produced in a place that is presumed to be very exploitative, like say Bangladesh or somewhere like this, as opposed to somewhere else. So as consumers, we we we can make the same choice around human welfare as people do who consume animals do around animal welfare.
00:12:33
Speaker
I'm not saying it's perfect, but it would be a recognition that there is violations going on with humans, just just as there is with animals.
00:12:43
Speaker
I think anything that that capitalism touches is tainted by this. There's only so much that we can and should be doing in terms of our individual lives.
00:12:55
Speaker
straightening that out. A lot of energy has to be spent and directed towards challenging the system as well. Because if you're living in a system that the system you're in, the superstructure that you're in di dictates the boundaries of your choices.
00:13:09
Speaker
And the people in power know that. They feel less threatened about us individually going vegan than they do about us vegans gathering up as a movement and challenging capitalism, like say the Animal Liberation Front did very successfully during the 80s and 90s, particularly in the UK.
00:13:26
Speaker
and There was the famous Morris Bar hoax. Anthony, do you remember that? From the 1987, when the Animal Liberation Front pretended when the animaliteation front pretended to inject Mars bars with rat poison.
00:13:39
Speaker
and put and put them back onto the shelves of shops randomly across the country. So they posted two Mars bars that had been injected with rat poison to the media, saying this is an example of what we've done to random bars all over the country.
00:13:54
Speaker
Anyone buying a Mars bar today or tomorrow from a new anywhere, from any sweet shop in the country might be buying one of these Mars bars with alpha kill, which is a type of rat poison, a liquid rat poison injected into it.
00:14:06
Speaker
The only two Mars bars that had been injected with rat poison were the two ones that were sent to the media. And the media exploded. And then the public outcry was huge. And everyone was condemning the ALF for doing this.
00:14:19
Speaker
But Mars Bar Corporation pulled out of the animal research that they were engaged in, which is what the whole point of that action was all about. So in that sense, it was highly effective. The ironic thing is, is that the Animal Liberation Front pretended to poison food, but they actually really didn't.
00:14:34
Speaker
ah The um animal industry pretends it doesn't poison its food, but it does all the time. People are poisoned by their products weekly. In fact, I think about 10,000 people in the UK come down with food poisoning every week.
00:14:47
Speaker
About 90% of that is directly related to eating animal products. So I'm sort going off on a tangent here, but I think the as vegans, we can only do so much in our individual lives and around us.
00:15:01
Speaker
The rest has to be directed to and against the system. I don't think capitalism is the right has the right set of goggles on and emphasizes the right things for it to be a sustainable, nonviolent system. It depends on violence to s so to a sustain itself and to make money, but that's violence against the labor force or against animals.
00:15:22
Speaker
and So just as we must collapse the meat and dairy industries, I think we also need to collapse the capitalist system before it dooms us all. It wants us to sacrifice ourselves and our our kids for their short-term profit.
00:15:35
Speaker
So we we're in a pre-revolutionary stage right now. and Before I die, I would like to see a revolution happen. I'll probably be too old to take part in it. I've got a bad knee. and Ultimately, that system has to be destroyed and a new one take its place if we're to achieve what we want to achieve for animals and for ourselves. I'm sorry, Mark. I'm not laughing at your bad knee. i'm i'm just ah it My brain just went to a place where you you were sort of handing in your sick notes.
00:16:03
Speaker
to the revolution leader to say, look, I'm fully behind this. making my excuses now. yeah yeah Yeah, absolutely. No, thank you for that, Mark. I mean, Elena, it it sounded like your description of of actions you do and deliberately do not take a very, like and like Mark said, very closely linked to the same sort of motivations for vegan. I mean, like for being vegan, would would that be fair to say? Yeah, actually, for example, in my case, when I became vegan, it was just because of the animal rights, because I knew how animals were treated and I didn't want to be part of that.
00:16:41
Speaker
And it happens to have a name that is vegan. So I happened to be vegan on that perspective, for example, in the same way. I know or I assume because it's not shown in the label as Mark suggests for some products how how they are done or how they are manufactured but for example I assume that if something is made in India or China or Bangladesh I assume that the workers are being treated like slaves and I don't want to be part of that.
00:17:07
Speaker
So it comes from the same place but as Mark says for example in some instances the the customer has not all the all the power. Unfortunately, for example, in terms of food, we can choose what to eat or what not to eat. But in terms, for example, having a car, sometimes you need a car to to be part of the society to go to work. And unfortunately,
00:17:30
Speaker
they are In this case that we are going out of the vegan world, it's related to veganism, but unfortunately the customer doesn't have, or the people doesn't have that much power.
00:17:42
Speaker
we We have to, as I agree with Mark on that, we we have to address more the system that the purchase or the actions themselves, maybe we we in terms of,
00:17:54
Speaker
of the food industry or cosmetic industry, we have the power to choose what to buy or what not to buy. And if we go outside that world, maybe we don't have that many options. It's better to address the system.
00:18:07
Speaker
For example, in some people, they can... the they can't choose not to drive or they cannot choose the energy company they are they are hiring because they are, for example, renters or whatever.
00:18:21
Speaker
So I think it's good that you can do as much as you can, but I wouldn't put any pressure on anyone to do, example, the same as I do with some people. If you have small children that they need new clothes every two months because they are growing, I wouldn't blame you if you just go to Primark and buy just a t-shirt to have something clean for them to to be dressed.
00:18:44
Speaker
I wouldn't be so strict in this in this field. It's no coincidence that the um the origins of the vegan movement formally came about in 1944, which was between 1944 and 1945, they were the two most violent years in human history. It it evolved out of, ah from a world that was tearing its itself apart.
00:19:05
Speaker
um It was a response to World War II, to an extent, as well as being response to animal abuse. And so veganism has always been intertwined with human rights,
00:19:18
Speaker
welfare and sustainable. It's been part of a bigger picture. It's so itself, it described itself. So Donald Watson and co described themselves as being the ultimate peace movement.
00:19:29
Speaker
Okay. it's the They were the guys who were challenging all forms of violence and abuse, including the abuse of animals. So veganism since its inception has always been intertwined with these other issues. It's only since it's grown in the last 10 or 20 years and and expanded out of the left-wing milieu that it sort of started in and attracted people from across the board that you have this sort of ah segmenting off of veganism from other things. You can be a vegan,
00:19:57
Speaker
but vote Tory and be a capitalist and all these other things because they aren't concerned about the sort of wider issues. So that it's it's relatively new that we're that we're having this this ah conversation.
Diverse Political Views in Veganism
00:20:09
Speaker
Prior to the explosion of veganism, it was always and connected with sort of the... sort of anarchist end of the left wing really in terms of the activists so uh this is a new conversation it's a result of uh the popularity of veganism attracting in people from across the political spectrum unlike before yeah absolutely and and i mean we'll we'll we'll come on to that point specifically in a moment mark but before we do i just wanted to come back to to something that that you were saying, Elena, in terms of veganism has a name, it has a label to describe this quite binary, I'm going to do this and I'm not going to do this.
00:20:47
Speaker
And there is a name that sums that up. I mean, Donald Watson and those who who who coined that term, I think that what a brilliant move that was because I think it really helps give things mileage. And of course we, we, we see on the news show of, of the downsides of it in that, you know, to, to get a story feature in the news. Now people will slam the word vegan in the headline, even if it's nothing to do with veganism, they'll say, Oh, vegan murderer does bla bla blah, blah, blah. You know, that's nothing to do with veganism or, or whatever, but it does help get the the cause out there. I,
00:21:21
Speaker
used to know quite well somebody who started a zero waste shop, as they called it, in Worcester, where I used to live. And we i don't know if it's the same in New Zealand, Mark, or in Spain, Elena, but like that it's it's becoming more of a ah thing, this sort of you know reducing waste and and living plastic-free as much as possible.
00:21:43
Speaker
But I think the difficulty with the with the movement or a difficulty with it is that it's quite difficult to say, oh i'm I'm a zero waster because well, everyone contributes a little bit. You could say I'm a waste reducer, but actually having that absolute stance that you can say, and and actually in the definition of veganism is is the whole thing, well, from the vegan society's definition, it it sort of says, well, as much as you can.
00:22:12
Speaker
basically so it's it's not saying well i know that every carrot i eat has been harvested from a field where no mice have been killed by the combine harvester or or whatever you know that's kind of inbuilt into the definition but it gives us a badge it gives us a label it gives us a kind of quite an absolute standpoint and that that does help doesn't it whereas these other things that that we've described whether it's boycotting nestle or kind of only buying clothes when we need to because they don't have labels it in a sense i wonder whether it reduces the momentum of these movements um actually and you know be it'd be lovely for for more people like in my opinion anyway to to be a bit more minimalist with with what they're buying only buy things when they need to but
00:22:57
Speaker
I don't know that there's a term for that. The closest I found was like a conscientious or a conscious consumer or something like that. I looked up online and and people were saying like, oh, you you do things like, you you know, you only buy things when you you need to. You don't have your card details saved on Google.
00:23:15
Speaker
um but You try and make everything intentional. So that's the closest I've found to kind of like it. labels for these things. But I think that does help, doesn't it? Yeah, I think the the ah best thing that the vegetarian society have done was deny the vegan people within their society to be a subset of the vegetarian. They kick them out. but So when Donald Watson asked, can us vegans be still part of the UK Vegetarian Society? The Vegetarian Society sort said no, because we have no problem with consuming dairy, but you do. See your difference. You need to go out on your own and do your own thing and stop bothering us.
00:23:51
Speaker
And that's the best thing that the vegetarians could have done because it forced us, forced them, vegans at the time, to establish their own identity. and as niche as it was seen for many decades to come now it's exploded it has its firm identity and in many cases like in ireland it's superseded the vegetarian movement in fact the irish vegetarian society transformed itself into the irish vegan society about a year ago because the entire membership, we're all vegans now. So vegetarianism, as extreme as we were seeing back in the day, is now passe. you know i mean, it's like nothing. you know
00:24:24
Speaker
um It's like saying you're keto or something. you know It's just this sort of almost the hobbyist sort of thing. It's the vegans now that that have really taken the mantle and wrested it away from the vegetarians and established their own cutting edge movement with that. So well done to the vegetarians for chucking us out is what said. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. but what What opportunities that's created.
00:24:47
Speaker
Okay, let's let's move on. Mark, you've touched upon the fact that that nowadays it seems, as as opposed to 20 years ago, you you could be vegan and have lots of different types of identity, whereas perhaps 20 years ago,
00:25:02
Speaker
you know, pretty much all vegans, that there would be a large overlap with perhaps other facets of of one's lifestyle or or political beliefs or or what have you. I'm going to come to you first, Elena, but I will pose this to you, to you Mark, too, and I'll have a go as well.
00:25:16
Speaker
I want you to imagine you you've described Elena being the only vegan in the village and and and how difficult that can be and in the workplace. But I want you to imagine that um someones someone's moved into the you know ah your town or or your workplace. Someone's come into your life who is vegan, too. And you're like, hey, fantastic. This is great.
00:25:35
Speaker
However, well, no, I'm not going to say however. And this person also, they don't recycle their, let's say, their quite right wing with their politics, that they buy lots of things frivolously. They don't seem to care. You know, you might mention something about Amnesty International and human rights violations. They don't really seem that interested in it.
00:25:54
Speaker
But they they definitely are vegan. You know, they check their vitamin D on their... you know, on their cereal, always is it definitely vegan. Yeah, it's really important to me. Animal rights is really important. Absolutely. no I'm not having any cosmetics that are, you know, tested on animals, but you know, the house is full of single use plastics and whatever. How, how would you feel in that situation? Is that like, does that feel okay to you? Is that something you'd want to challenge them on or what, what's the deal there? I mean, I would obviously not i admire the fact that they are using tons of single plastics and,
00:26:26
Speaker
But on the other hand, I will be happy to see that there are extremely diversity in the vegan community. like Because i don't what i don't like, for example, about veganism is from the outside, seeing that we all kind of have the same personality. We are all the same.
00:26:44
Speaker
And for example, in this case, this person, I wouldn't say is he or she is not vegan. I mean, she obviously or he obviously is. Let's pretend it's a voice, so I don't have to say he or she. So would say it's vegan, of course, for example, in terms of recycling, I would prefer them to be more conscious buyers or more environmentalists.
00:27:09
Speaker
I think, for example, in terms of vegans, we have we have it hard enough. For example, the indian in another episode, you were commenting with Julie, I think it was, all the vegan food that it was tested on animals. I mean, it's our being vegan is already hard in a non-vegan world. So imagine if we have to put another level of pressure.
00:27:28
Speaker
You have to be a conscious eater. You have to be a minimalist. You have to to buy from... you know Whatever you can... If you can do all of that, that's great. But if you don't... it's not I won't say it's not bad, but I wouldn't put any pressure anyone to put people off of veganism. Maybe they are thinking about stop eating meat because they know about animal rights and then they say, oh, but I have to stop buying clothes and they have to be second hand and they have to be made from organic cotton. Maybe I don't want to be a vegan.
00:28:01
Speaker
So i prefer I prefer people to, I prefer to have vegans from all the spectrum. I don't care if they are left or right. I don't care if they recycle or not. I mean, I prefer to have people more conscious about veganism and then we we can stop worrying about the next thing. I mean, we have to take things step by step. And actually, I don't think it's a bad thing to have people from all the political spectrum worrying about animal rights because I think animal rights are like human rights. I don't care about your culture.
00:28:30
Speaker
political ideas, yeah there are certain things that we all need to agree on, like women and men are the same, sorry, I don't care about your race, we are all the same, so I don't care how your politics or how do you think the government's budget should be distributed.
00:28:47
Speaker
That's the political thing, i I don't mind that much, but I think violence is something that nobody should support. I don't, I don't mind where do you come from. So I will be happy to find something to so, so diverse in the vegan community. Cool. Okay. Thank you, Mark. What about you? Your new vegan next door neighbor has got this, you know, this big gas guzzling four by four that you, you know, they just drive it for hundreds of miles each day. Just, just for fun. Like you're challenge them on that? You know, I think I'd have to, ahd I'd be very curious as to what their, how their thinking worked, where they got their ideas about animals and why that doesn't apply to
00:29:31
Speaker
human animals as well. It'd be very interesting. i'll be interested in their sources of information, what the record collection is like, what sort of books they read. It it it has to be said, and I've done a bit of research on this, I was going to include it in in my book from a few years back, but but I didn't in the end because it was too much of a tangent, really. But um the Nazis in 1934, as soon as they had signed signed an agreement with the Catholic Church to both allow each other to do whatever they wanted to do and not criticize each other,
00:30:01
Speaker
They had this huge big conference in Berlin centered around animal rights. And there's a massive banner at the back of the stage that said it will require epochs of time to repay animals for their service. Now, epochs of love to repay animals for their services to humankind.
00:30:18
Speaker
It will require epochs of love. The the stage was festooned with swastikas and all the rest of it, brown shirts, all Sikh heiling, there for animal rights. the Nazi party introduced an animal welfare program that was so progressive at its time, it's still used today in Germany. The basis of today's German animal welfare program was based on one designed by Hitler. So unfortunately, amazingly, ah The issue of animal rights can attract people from across the spectrum, and it has done down through time, even to the point where there are Nazis, actual Nazis who are banging on about animal welfare.
00:30:55
Speaker
Hermann Gรถring sent a fisherman to a concentration camp because he used live worms as his bait, which they had banned. Now, the irony of so sending a human to a concentration camp for being cruel to an animal was completely lost on these people.
00:31:08
Speaker
But they arrived at the conclusion that you should be nice to animals despite their extreme hatred towards large sections of the human race. Right. So the human mind is is a wonderful thing. It works in weird ways. Okay. So you have to bear in mind that even people with the most despicable, inhumane ideologies can have a soft spot for animals. Hitler loved animals, right? And he hated humans.
00:31:34
Speaker
And it's bizarre because humans are animals. And he had this mad thing about the world ice theory in that other humans aren't actually animals at all. They're, they aren't humans at all. There's some sort of subhuman ape type of thing and to have sex with a Jewish person was bestiality and I'm going off on a mad tangent here but the point is is that um you you can find people who are genuinely concerned about animals that hate human beings and it is bizarre and there's no logic to it I guess they've arrived at that place through emotional sorts of reasoning rather than intellectual reasoning because it makes no sense but um yeah I would sit down and
00:32:09
Speaker
try and get inside this person's mind, if only briefly, to see what I could understand, because it makes no sense. I think that was my first thought too. And i it it would be ah I'd be doing it at arm's length as well, because I think I don't think I'd... Texting.
00:32:25
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's what WhatsApp was for. But yeah, I would agree with Elena that like what I inferred from from what you were saying, Elena, was actually like from an animal's point of view, like they don't they don't care.
00:32:38
Speaker
like what your politics are or anything like that. The fact is, if you're abstaining from continuing the demand for for products and services that involve their exploitation, they don't care. It's just a binary thing, isn't it? So I wouldn't be displeased that somebody who lives their lifestyle or, you know, Mark, you've kind of got into political ah bits there as as well, like,
00:33:05
Speaker
Whilst I wouldn't be pleased that someone's also got that part of ah that their life um from an animal rights there and then perspective, i think, you know, that that's clearly a good thing.
00:33:19
Speaker
However, I wouldn't I don't. Some of those examples, depending on how extreme you take it, I'm not necessarily sure how much time I'd want to spend with somebody that kind of lives their life in that way. that that that that that kind of like you know I've given extreme examples there of like excessive consumerism and kind of living your life to excess clearly to the detriment of of others. I'm not sure in 2025, certainly in the what we might call the Western world, I'm not sure that you can live your life to excess
00:33:52
Speaker
in a way that is pleasantly ignorant. I think that you have to be knowingly ignorant to do that. I think we're all aware that that living our life in an excessive way is impacting the rest of the planet. you know We're not just doing it frivolously.
00:34:10
Speaker
We know that it's damaging others. So i would ah do sympathize with people that are caught in habits or come from a culture where these things are normalized.
00:34:21
Speaker
But realistically, we do we do have to change how we do things. so there's that sort of thing. as As well, I think there is something to be said. and We've kind of touched this on um episodes before where we've talked about vegans behaving in quite extreme ways that potentially can undermine the integrity of the movement. I i would have some concerns about somebody identifying as vegan and also behaving in ways that other people might see as quite problematic. I might almost want to distance myself from from that person and and and their veganism to a degree. I certainly wouldn't hold them up as an example of, hey, you know, Jeff's vegan as well. yeah You know, Jeff, the bloke with the speedboat with loads of, you know, empty bottles of...
00:35:07
Speaker
thatsy jeff With all those um yeah empty Coca-Cola cans that he's throwing into the ocean when he's going on his speedboat trips. I wouldn't be holding him up as an example of of a great vegan.
00:35:20
Speaker
to To be honest, I'm being completely honest. And I know that you could view that as being judgmental or whatever. But yeah, I would i would have concerns about animals in the long run. in in that instance, because with you know realistically, if most people are on board with the kind of don't use plastic drinking straws argument and they see vegan Jeff still happily going through his plastic drinking straws, they're going be like, well, maybe vegans aren't that good after all then.
00:35:51
Speaker
But that's just my opinion. There was there was a situation in the early 1970s with the Hunt Saboteur's Association where the editor of their magazine, Howl, was a Nazi.
00:36:03
Speaker
His name was Fรผhrer Dave. And he was from Belfast. so His name was David McAlvin. He was a Holocaust-denying Nazi who was also interested in anti-hunting.
00:36:14
Speaker
He ate meat. And he was he was given the job of editing the the very first edition of Howl. And it comes across, and if you go on, all the editions of Howl are there online now. you can You can see them all.
00:36:27
Speaker
If you go to issue one, it's a four-page pamphlet written by a Nazi concerning fox hunting. And it's it's so clear that the guy writing this is really far right. He's praising the National Front's animal welfare policy and...
00:36:40
Speaker
a big article about why he eats meat but is against fox hunting and he's trying to rationalize the whole lot. He was given the reins of the magazine for the very first issue. And it was it was so pro-Nazi that there was a big debate then within the Hunts' Saboteurs Association saying, what do we do with these people?
00:36:57
Speaker
This guy, Fewer Dave, is actually really good at organizing, but he's a Nazi. Do we kick him out? Do do the animals care that he's a Nazi? and so And some people thought, no, ah they don't. As long as he's willing to get stuck in, we don't care what his human-related politics are.
00:37:10
Speaker
But there was enough of a pushback against this, and there was a vote eventually. And the vote was taken to expel Fewer Dave from the Hunsatbathuels Association and not allow any obvious fascists in again and to take a stance with anti-fascist action.
00:37:25
Speaker
From then on, it forced the Hunsatbathuels movement to expand its politics and include a human rights as well. Fewer Dave then went to America and set up a Holocaust-denying literature printing project.
00:37:38
Speaker
firm until he died of AIDS in 1980, which is a curious ah cause of death for a white supremacist straight male, isn't it? you know So, um yeah, so it's it's it's been an issue before, but when the far right tried to infiltrate the movement in the 70s and 80s, they were kicked out quite violently by the far left element and never really reappeared.
00:38:01
Speaker
what what i What I was thinking is that it's, I mean, for example, in my in my my opinion, i approximately I don't consider myself left or right, I have to say it. I don't care that much about politics. So so in my opinion, like animal rights are like human rights. They are like a basic level. And from that, you can choose to be more left or more right. is It's up to you. So for example, in my case, you can be right or left because you are ah up on some...
00:38:31
Speaker
some so construction that is like at the basic level. I mean, I don't care if you call yourself like leftist or right. If you, for example, consider that it's okay to have human slaves in some parts of Asia,
00:38:44
Speaker
I mean, that nobody should should believe that that's fine. And in the same way, nobody should believe that it's fine to have 1.1 billion chickens being killed just for one company.
00:38:56
Speaker
for example So in my case, it's good to have some diversity in the movement because in a way, most of the movements, they can they can have more diversity. And for some way, from the outside, people think that all vegans are the same. and i And I would like to have more...
00:39:12
Speaker
more different voices. So maybe that's that will be a way to also to spread the message because sometimes people maybe they are like more towards some spectrum of the politics and they think that veganism is not for them because they they are in some part of the society. For example, maybe you live in a rural area and this is something that you think is not typical for people who lives in rural areas.
00:39:38
Speaker
If you know more people that they are, some of them they are like right, more left, maybe some of them are younger, they are older, because it's getting more diverse. you can Most people can relate to those different people and they the movement will also spread more. I mean, I'm not talking about Nazis in here.
00:39:58
Speaker
Nobody can argue with that. It's not saying like, I'm i'm happy that Nazis were vegan. I mean, I would prefer not to be. Just that's it, not to exist.
00:40:08
Speaker
And I think everyone can agree with that. and So I'm talking about modern times where not such a horrible streams have been achieved. So ah that's that's that's my point of view. I mean, i think I think it's good to have people from every kind of a spectrum. I think I've also seen like some Christian movement towards veganism, like thinking like,
00:40:32
Speaker
You have to be compassionate to every human, as the Bible says, and you have to also be compassionate with other animals. Maybe you're a religious person and now you think, okay, that's kind of... that's the kind of message that I agree with and then you go vegan. that's That's perfectly great. I think maybe in the 70s no Christian would think I'm going vegan because that's something that only leftists do and I don't want to steal anything from Lesley. So i think I think it's great to have to have a more diverse people in the movement because I think the the the message itself, it's I think it's so basic to to live this way. Like,
00:41:11
Speaker
It's like no no no killing people. Do you think you have to be left or right to think it's bad to kill other humans or raping women? No. I don't think anyone would agree with that. So why would we agree on living in a violent way? I think...
00:41:26
Speaker
I think it's good to keep politics away and to say this is more like about a basic way of living rather than politics. Yeah, mean my yeah that I've definitely heard it said um and and it's my experience that that people will listen more to a message that that comes from somebody that is like them or that they can relate to.
Capitalism vs. Vegan Ethics
00:41:48
Speaker
So from from that point of view, i I'd certainly agree with what you're saying, Elena.
00:41:52
Speaker
the Our conversation has is as wound its way and in in quite a really interesting way. I'd like to just finish off with a couple of questions that kind of relate back to ah consumerism, I suppose, and and kind of our habits that we carry out regularly.
00:42:10
Speaker
um or with some intention. um And they're going to have to be quite quite short answers, I suppose. So I'd really recommend podcast that I don't believe regularly posts anymore, but their old episodes are out there.
00:42:23
Speaker
It's got a curious name. It's called Vegan Warrior Princesses Attack. It sounds quite fanciful, um but it's a couple of women who are very outwardly anti-capitalist, and they are both vegan as well. And I I would direct listeners to there for the kind of conversation about, you know, can you be capitalist and can you be vegan?
00:42:46
Speaker
Sorry, can you be anti-capitalist and can you be vegan at the same time? But just I'm wondering, Mark and then Elena, do you have any strong feelings that can be expressed in a short soundbite?
00:42:57
Speaker
with regards to like can we be consumerist can we be consumers can we be capitalists and it be consistent with veganism or is there an inherent contradiction there do you want to start off first mark there is an inherent contradiction i don't think you'll be a successful capitalist within the current system and have a genuine love and care for animals no the two of them are contradictory and i don't think they can be resolved. Well, even though I think living with kindness to others, it's also quite difficult in an extremely capitalist world.
00:43:33
Speaker
I also think that not putting too much pressure on vegans in a capitalist world, in a non-vegan world, is also needed. So maybe maybe we we have to keep them separate for a while until it becomes easier to to not support a system that is not really focusing on human or animal rights.
00:43:54
Speaker
As I've said before, I ran a couple of businesses um a few years ago and I found myself identifying less as a vegan. They were vegan businesses and I was still being as vegan as I am now. Arguably even more so because it was my day-to-day job and and you know there was a big activism part to it, but I felt my identity was more as a business owner and and i you know the activism was running a successful business.
00:44:25
Speaker
Over time, feel like, certainly in how others perceived me, I was going away from being a compassionate vegan and you know I felt like my ethics were still as strong and and and things like that, but there's there was definitely a rub and there was definitely an incongruity, if that is a word,
00:44:45
Speaker
and between the two things. And I would give my support to anyone who is trying to run a business like, you know, there are specialist plant-based foods out there that arguably need capitalist businesses.
00:44:59
Speaker
to to do a capitalist job in a capitalist system in order to improve outcomes for animals. And you know anyone doing that has got my support and it's incredibly difficult.
00:45:10
Speaker
And I don't know how long-term it could be in the same way that, I mean, it's very rare that you see a zero waste shop doing absolutely brilliantly because actually ah zero waste shop is in a capitalist model But actually, it's basically saying, don't buy too much, will you?
00:45:28
Speaker
Because that's not great for the earth or its resources. So try not to buy too much. but that That doesn't really work in it and the capitalist model. So yeah, I think maybe it's maybe it's a topic for another...
00:45:40
Speaker
um episode. But and yeah, I thought I'd just get your opinions on that. And then just to finish, um perhaps if you can go first on this one, Mark, and then Elena, and then myself, you've mentioned already some things that you um in your day to day life don't do or do do aside from veganism that you do for a similar reason of trying to make the world a better place or trying to make it easier to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of a day have you gotten like a couple that you might suggest to listeners as you know a really good habit to engage in or a good thing to avoid doing you want to start off my yeah i guess uh you should carry on shoplifting products from nestle as long as they're they're vegan i just do that carefully and
00:46:24
Speaker
ah try and take the busher cycle, I guess, really. It's probably the next biggest thing in terms of impact that we have as ah individuals and then direct the rest towards the system. Well, I would say that this is, I think, a rule from the minimalists, but can be spread. Like, whatever you think you need, give it a week.
00:46:44
Speaker
Give it a week. And the one week after... you will be pretty, most of the time you will be pretty fine it without it. So needs can be redefined. So you can redefine yours.
00:46:57
Speaker
I like it. I'm gonna give two. i've I've remembered an absolute that I have in my life that isn't to do with veganism. So I don't drink and that is not a, sorry, don't drink alcohol. Just to clarify, I'm not some sort of odd animal that doesn't need liquid.
00:47:13
Speaker
um ah That's not necessarily like an ethical thing, um but it is related to um alcoholism um with within um my family and and the impact it's had on certain people. So kind of in all good consciousness, I i can't can't do that for myself. And i like I say, it's not an ethical thing in terms of, um I don't think it's bad that people do do drink, like I think that's people's individual choice, but I think anyone who kind of feels like, oh, should I, I feel like, but maybe that's, maybe I don't want to drink, maybe, like, I think there just being a few people out there the that kind of have that stance, I think can be helpful just in terms of just challenging the norm, because some some people can't deal with it, you know, that's the reality. Most people can,
00:48:07
Speaker
But some people can't. I'm rubbish at refined sugar, for example. And I think it's great that some people say, I don't have refined sugar because, you know, it it sends the message that actually some people find it really difficult and they can't deal with it. So I think any kind of like choosing to abstain from a thing and giving a label that can help people who like in their lives struggle with moderation because some people find moderation really difficult.
00:48:30
Speaker
So I think just I'd give a blanket um sort of anyone wanting to sort of say, do you know what? I don't do this one thing or I don't consume this one thing. I think that can send a really useful message without saying that everyone should do it.
00:48:44
Speaker
And I think that the other kind of similar to what you were saying, Elena, like generally, I think it's easier to live without something than you think. And if you had to for a year live without a car,
00:48:57
Speaker
or live without ah dishwasher or live without a certain gadget or certain amount of clothing I reckon you'd manage. And that's not to say, therefore, we should have no possessions. We shouldn't do anything. We shouldn't buy anything ever. But it's quite a useful sort of mindset to have that like, oh actually, there probably was a time in human history where people didn't have this thing or this service or this whatever bit of technology.
00:49:23
Speaker
And they were probably all right. They were probably happy. I don't think they died when they were 13 as a result. So, yeah, just questioning those things. I think is useful. Right, we've been falafeling for the best part of an hour.
00:49:35
Speaker
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00:49:56
Speaker
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00:50:12
Speaker
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00:50:23
Speaker
Lovely chat there. Thank you, Elena. Thank you, Mark. That was really, really interesting. We love hearing from all of you out there too. If you've got some top tips or you disagree with anything we've said, or you've got ideas for an episode, drop us an email. It's enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:50:39
Speaker
come If you like this episode, you will enjoy as well the next coming out, a vegan week one, where Anthony, Richard and Dominic will do a round off of for the latest animal rights and vegan news.
00:50:50
Speaker
And away, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Elena. And thank you, Anthony, for all your contributions. Thanks again, everyone, for listening. I've been Mark and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collected.
00:51:08
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplatt.com.
00:51:23
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.