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166- Vegan outreach on the streets: What's the point?
95 Plays22 days ago
Have you ever seen folk holding up TV screens showing footage from animal agriculture on your local High Street? So-called "vegan outreach" gets a fair amount of coverage on social media & over the last ten years or so has been a regular fixture in many city centres. But what's the best way to go about it? And indeed, what is it trying to achieve? Carlos, Kate & Ant share their vegan outreach experiences, and try to work out if it's worth it.
In this episode, we make reference to the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5j9UJ4z-OY
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Carlos, Kate & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Talk Episode
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. So how should vegans talk to members of the public about animal rights then? I'm Anthony and for this episode I'm also joined by Kate and Carlos.
00:00:13
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrrr! protein take your lab grown meat elsewhere we're not doing that in the state of florida how about your protein and what about your iron levels should i call the media and say hi sorry they they're arguing like oh poor woe is me oh no hang on a minute you always pick the
00:00:40
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be all right. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:55
Speaker
No, I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everyone and welcome to Vegan Talk. I'm Carlos and we're so glad that you're here with us.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hi everyone, it's Kate here again. It's great to be with you.
Focus on Vegan Street Activism
00:01:10
Speaker
And this week we're doing episode of Vegan Talk, which is a bit different to our usual vegan news episode, where we talk a little bit more depth about a particular topic. And there's a whole load of other Vegan Talks available in our back catalogue. If you're interested, just go and take a look.
00:01:30
Speaker
Absolutely. They are there for you covering a huge range of subjects and are not going anywhere. So you can listen to them
Reference to George Martin's Activism Video
00:01:37
Speaker
whenever you want. However, what we're here to talk about today, what we are here today to talk about street activism specifically. Now,
00:01:46
Speaker
We know that a lot of you listening come from all different corners of the globe and we don't want to make any presumptions about what your prior experience is or or your knowledge. And whilst a lot of you, I imagine, will know what vegan street activism might look like, some of you might not.
00:02:04
Speaker
So what we've done is we've pasted a link in the show notes to a free video on YouTube. It's about 12 minutes long. That is just an example of one person doing some street activism. They're part of a group, so there's lots of other people there doing it, but the camera is just focused on them.
00:02:22
Speaker
They're mic'd up and so are the people they're talking to. So at points during this episode, we might refer this video. that the The channel is called George Martin Carnism Debunked. It's a couple years old and he is doing some activism on behalf of a group called We The Free or WTF.
00:02:42
Speaker
See what they did there? So we're we're not particularly wanting to critique him or criticize him or or and anything about that but it's just a sort of shared reference point but also myself Carlos and Kate are going to talk about our own experiences talking to people on the streets about veganism but whether or not you've come across vegan street activism before you might want to just pause now and and watch or listen to that short video just for a common reference point but don't worry if you don't.
Carlos's Street Activism Experience
00:03:17
Speaker
So let's let's get the ball rolling. Carlos, perhaps you could start us off. You have done activism on the streets, so to speak. What has it looked like?
00:03:28
Speaker
What has drawn you to do it? and and and And how's it gone? just to you know Just to kind of clear up what we're talking about here, we're talking about this specific type of street activism and not, let's say, a protest where you stand outside ah you know ah a shop that sells fur or leather with placards and maybe hand out flyers.
00:03:48
Speaker
so Or doing a sort of artsy demonstration where you kind of do sort of protest, but have perhaps somebody dressed as kind of simulating, you know, as if human female. So if as if women were treated as cows are in the dairy industry, which is...
00:04:04
Speaker
been quite popular in the UK recently, those kinds of protests and demonstrations. So this is basically what I at least call outreach, which is kind of talking to people on the street, usually following some sort of screen, showing some kind of footage of animal abuse or practices of animal abuse.
Outreach Protocol and Public Reactions
00:04:21
Speaker
My experience of these, so I've done these I'd say would then outreach maybe 20 times, something along those lines. So not a lot. I mean, I know people who've been doing it for years and they do it like every weekend, every weekend, rain or shine.
00:04:35
Speaker
They're out there. So they must do like dozens and dozens every year. So far more than I have. But from my experience, the ones I go to usually last about two hours. And I will say I will have something like...
00:04:48
Speaker
maybe nine conversations, nine to 10 conversations during those two hours. Not just because sometimes it's it's hard to kind of find somebody to talk to. You know, the protocol we use, we we we have a screen showing, let's not call it vegan propaganda. It's more kind of, you know, kind of showing the abuses of animal ag or or other, or, you know, sporting events that use animals.
00:05:11
Speaker
And, you know, if somebody stops to look at the screen for enough time to engage with the content in some way, I'll come over and have a chat. So that's why it's only like seven or eight chats per two hour period, because I'm not stopping people in the middle of the street and kind of forcing them to have a conversation.
00:05:26
Speaker
And I would say about... Usually majority of people are very polite. This was one of my biggest fears when I started doing it, that people would get aggressive or that they would, you know, get physical perhaps or, um offensive because I, I really didn't want to kind of get into that. And I think if somebody gets like that, then they're certainly impossible to convince to go vegan if they start getting like physically aggressive or, or kind of verbally aggressive. But so far that's not been my experience.
00:05:55
Speaker
I would say though, of course that I'm, um, ah man So I'm probably less likely to have somebody kind of get aggressive with me than if I were a woman. But that I think is also the experience of the women I do outreach with that seldomly does anybody ever get like properly aggressive. So that's not never really happened for me.
00:06:14
Speaker
Most I the conversations are good in the sense that I can get my arguments in. As you can see in the video, pretty much the same arguments. You're looking at this footage. How do you feel about this footage? how does it make you know If it makes you feel like this, then why are you paying money to make this
Abolitionist Arguments in Outreach
00:06:31
Speaker
happen?
00:06:31
Speaker
Shouldn't you make changes to your lifestyle that stop you funding these atrocities and so on and so forth? I usually can get my arguments in, but sometimes it's really hard to...
00:06:42
Speaker
get some purchase on these arguments and on the with the other person. I would say in my experience, and this of course is because I live in London, so that's my color, my experience.
00:06:54
Speaker
I would say religious arguments are really difficult to fight against because you know how do you how do you place your ethical arguments against, you know, the sayings of a holy book, right?
00:07:07
Speaker
And I'm just a human, yeah, talking to somebody. Although I would say that a lot of people who use those religious arguments, they might not be so religious themselves. They're just looking for a way out of the of the conversation so they can keep going about their lives without any change. I only use abolitionist arguments. Every organization I've done outreach with has a strict protocol of only using abolitionist arguments. so we never talk about yes, you should eat less meat or you should maybe don't consume mammals because they have more developed nervous systems. So we never use any kind of those arguments. We go straight for the no animal exploitation.
00:07:44
Speaker
I would say, and i know I've been talking for a while, that for these, it's easier to pick on the big ones, things like not killing animals for food rather than the smaller ones, like, I don't know, horse riding.
00:07:58
Speaker
and So I would say horse being against horse riding is like, Level 10 of veganism, being against eating meat is like level one. So it's usually better to start like with the things that people will accept more easily and hope and kind of cross your fingers they're not going to mention, well, if you're against animal abuse, surely you're against horse riding.
00:08:18
Speaker
You know, of course, I will say I'm against horse riding, but I usually don't start with those kind of more kind of, I wouldn't say fringe parts of kind of I hesitate to say extreme parts of veganism because it all kind of ties together, but like the less less common arguments for veganism. I start like with the big ones, you know, there's an animal who wants to live.
00:08:40
Speaker
you're hungry, you don't like the taste of vegan sausages, you're going to pay for that animal to be killed. Yeah. So I started with like the big, the big things. And that's what we show on the screens. Nice one. Thank you, Carlos.
00:08:52
Speaker
Right, Kate, you've been on the streets doing any vegan outreach in your time? What have your experiences been? Yeah, I have.
Kate's Initial Outreach Experiences
00:09:00
Speaker
um I haven't done as many as colour. So I've only done about three, if I'm being perfectly honest, but I would love to do more.
00:09:08
Speaker
It's finding the time. That's the problem. And it is a little bit of a trek from where I live. I know that sounds like a poor excuse. Yeah. But i i don't know, i i was quite scared the first time I did it. You just didn't know what to expect. And like Carlos was saying, you know, didn't know whether to expect people to be aggressive or, you know, just.
00:09:29
Speaker
And yeah you of course, you've got no idea who's going to come up to you at all, because actually the vast majority of people are just walking past people. walking past and the ones I've done are the ones where you have like a cube where you've got people facing out holding the videos and so you know there are people clocking them as they go past I hear you you occasionally hear people say oh that's oh that that's oh that doesn't really happen oh they're just showing animal abuse as if that's not the usual stuff.
00:10:01
Speaker
But yeah, you do get people stopping and looking and then you kind of, you know, if you're feeling okay and reasonably confident, you just go up to somebody and, and you just say, oh you know, you know what you're looking at? How does this make you feel and sort of start engaging in them and referring to it's ah it's really helpful having the film going that you can refer to as you're having your discussion with somebody I never knew the half of it most people don't know what goes on with animals or they have some sort of inkling and and then they spend most of their life pretending that
00:10:42
Speaker
you know, it's not going on because none of us really want to see it. And actually, I don't want to see it either. don't want to actually watch this footage while I'm on the streets, but I have to look at it in order to be able to talk to the people who are stopping and looking at it and,
00:10:59
Speaker
And sometimes just explaining what's going on and people are quite incredulous sometimes. And I mean, I do find it very effective, a very effective way of talking to people. What's your experience, Anthony, doing these things?
Anthony's Shift in Focus from Outreach
00:11:15
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:11:15
Speaker
I want to put a pin in that that phrase, it's an effective way of talking to people, because I agree with you, and I also think there's things to discuss there. My experience has been ah similar to you in that it's something I have done. i think the last, I was thinking about it, think the last time I did this was in early 2018.
00:11:34
Speaker
So we are talking seven years ago as we are recording now. I'd say i was I was really quite into it then. I did three in quite quick succession, um and then I opened the a vegan cafe in my city and that was literally every day of my life for five years and now now i've started doing this podcast um so there's my excuse for not doing it recently i wouldn't say it's something that i object to doing anymore it's it's just not where my energies are directed at the moment similar to what you've said kate and what it sounds like for you For you, Carlos, I did a couple of bits of outreach with Anonymous for the Voiceless.
00:12:14
Speaker
um So what they called a cube of truth, which i I always just find amusing because it's not a cube. It's a square. You stand in a square. There aren't people showing TVs to the sky or the floor. It's a square. But maybe cube of truth sounds more impressive. But yeah, they're sort of showing showing animal footage. And um as Carlos described, you know, people around the outside waiting to talk to folk who look interested. You know, the protocol was,
00:12:38
Speaker
there's no point talking to anyone unless they've stopped at their own accord to look at this footage and before doing that i did a similar thing i've not seen it advertised before ah for a very long time now but it was basically the same format but it was called the earthlings experience um and the idea was you you I had the TVs, but you were specifically showing the documentary Earthlings, which, as many listeners might know, is very, very hard hitting. I was drawn towards be interested to hear what Kate and Carlos drew you towards doing this.
00:13:11
Speaker
I was drawn towards it as a sort of cathartic, I want to do something. I want to help. I want to help educate people. I want to try and persuade people to stop perpetuating the demand for these products.
00:13:27
Speaker
Because in my opinion, that's the issue. Farmers wouldn't be farming animals for fun. They're doing it because it's a way that they can make a living. um So I want to try and, you know, stem the flow there.
00:13:40
Speaker
And I would say... I very ah connected with some like-minded people, some of whom I'm still in touch with today. I saw some ineffective ways of communicating with the public, in my opinion, as well as lots of very effective ways.
00:13:56
Speaker
And I saw camaraderie of activists together. And I also saw activists being quite saddened by how difficult it was to get fellow activists to come out and do this work together.
00:14:12
Speaker
with them which became a bit of a cycle of despair in my opinion because the the guy leading this one particular group was just so down that not many people were there that the tone things really down so then more people didn't want to be there if that makes any sense but in in principle it felt like a good and cathartic thing to do and there were there was lots to be said for it can i ask carlos and then kate what what drew you towards doing x cause i don't think either of you touched on that
Motivation and Growth in Activism
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah. So first I'll start with two things you said. One of them is that you said you started with Earthlings Experience and then that hasn't happened in a while.
00:14:46
Speaker
Actually, my main outreach I do is with Earthlings Experience. Oh, great. ah It certainly is active in London. I think it's probably the most active in London, at least in terms of hours per week, because they do two outreaches and I might as well just ah plug them, I guess.
00:15:03
Speaker
So there's one on Wednesdays, which is from six till eight in Carnaby Street in front of the Shakespeare head. just show up if you're a vegan you know around London on a Wednesday from 6 to 8. Just show up and and you can do it. There's no kind of training required.
00:15:18
Speaker
I mean, there's a bit of training. You should shadow a few people beforehand. But, you know, it's not like being a handsab where you kind of need to learn a lot of things before you even begin. And there's one on Saturdays from 6 to 8.
00:15:33
Speaker
that's in Leicester Square so probably one of the places probably the place in in the UK with the most footfall I would imagine because it's incredibly busy on a Saturday between six and eight that's in front of Empire Casino so just show up you will likely see me there on the Saturday ones and yeah so that one of the the things you mentioned which I should add are things for instance that still definitely exists. What drew me to doing outreach was, I guess it was because i wanted to do something while SAP season it was off.
00:16:06
Speaker
SAP season runs ah kind of between sort of mid-September until mid-March. And then there's a bunch of months and I thought it would be kind of, oh, i don't I don't want to be selfish for these months. I want to do something, you know, for the animals.
00:16:19
Speaker
And um I certainly can talk a lot. So that's why in the podcast. So I just thought it would be a good idea. And it's also good for like, look, being perfectly selfish. It's like a good way to practice kind of talking to people, like sort of public speaking in a way, just kind of engaging with all sorts of people from all sorts of walks of life and and kind of trying to come up with arguments on the spot and see where the conversation is going.
00:16:44
Speaker
i find it I find it strangely enjoyable. Can I quickly jump in, Carlos? I would say from my point of view, those benefits that you've just said there, in my opinion, are the biggest benefits of that form of activism in terms of practicing yourself certain ways of saying things, hearing other people,
00:17:04
Speaker
doing it it's quite an intense way of doing it you get lots of different goes at it and you're surrounded by other people who are trying to do the same so they're they're likely um from a same perspective as as yourself and and that's that's really important i found out i found i've become a lot better at convincing like friends and family to go vegan not that many have but uh in kind of casual conversations my arguments are much more polished than they used to be yeah Sorry, Kate, i I
Kate's Outreach Journey and Public Reactions
00:17:32
Speaker
butted in there. What what drew you towards doing it?
00:17:34
Speaker
Well, very boringly. a friend asked me to go along. I hadn't thought of doing it. It wasn't anything on my wish list at all. um And I was in Brighton, actually. um But the conversations I had there are still in my head, ah you know, and it's a few years ago So...
00:17:53
Speaker
so um Yeah, I didn't know what to expect. And still don't know what expect when I turn up, when I've turned up and done these things. That's the, it you just never know who's going to come up.
00:18:07
Speaker
And, um Yeah, I've had slaughterhouse workers coming up to me. Who else has had slaughterhouse workers? No? Carlos? No, never had. Maybe that's Norfolk. It's Norfolk, I think. Yeah, Norfolk and probably Cambridge as well, I should imagine. I know people that do it in Cambridge as well.
00:18:26
Speaker
I've had, well, all kinds of people, you know, and occasionally you get some really hard ones, don't you? But I always try and remember that even if something doesn't appear to be going well, there are possibly people who are on the sidelines, you know, bystanders listening it. And, you know, and how you put yourself across as just being a nice person, I think.
00:18:52
Speaker
is um important. Yeah, so I try and gain nice points, even if I'm having a very difficult conversation with somebody. mean, one of which really sticks with me was a woman stopping with her little girl who was about seven. And that's the other thing, you know, children are going past um Some people think, oh, we shouldn't be showing this to to to children. But hang on a minute, they're putting it, it's all industry standard stuff. And but they're eating the stuff. Maybe they're entitled to know what's also what they're eating. I don't know. that's ah That is a ah thought, isn't it?
00:19:29
Speaker
Yeah, so one woman stopped with her little girl of about seven and was like, just stood staring really hard at it And this little girl, she looked really quite disturbed, actually.
00:19:40
Speaker
And she was saying, I want her to know where her food comes from. and and and i And, you know, I think I was trying to say, but, you know, because she's saying, we have to eat meat to weep to be healthy. And I went, well, hmm.
00:19:55
Speaker
that's not actually the case you know but she wouldn't have it and um I was thinking that maybe that little girl will go away and and think well I've just met some people that don't eat meat and I didn't like what I saw maybe when she's a little older and she might decide that she's not going to eat it I don't know you never know where these ah where conversations are going to lead people You've made me think there, Kate, that like one clear positive of this kind of outreach is that very often people will see the word vegan on a food packet or in a tabloid headline or on GB News or whatever, but they've never actually met one. Whereas this is a very good opportunity for folk to actually meet a vegan or somebody who believes in animal rights.
00:20:42
Speaker
I'd like to quickly just address what I think is the elephant in the room. I've never met a vegan who've said, I went vegan. because of some street outreach.
00:20:54
Speaker
I've never met somebody who's said, that's what turned me vegan. Do we think that's a problem with with this form of activism?
Impact of Outreach on Veganism Decisions
00:21:04
Speaker
Is it something just to acknowledge?
00:21:06
Speaker
or I think that's really hard to measure, isn't it? I mean, next vegan social I'm in which usually has like 50 people in it, I will, if there's a microphone, I will go, all right, anybody here, anybody here being converted by outreach as a, you know, just as a question. Yeah, I think, look, I don't think it's, I don't think it's the most, I think the most effective way of converting somebody is like a friends and family thing.
00:21:32
Speaker
Always, you know, like people, yeah people you consider to be your peers and, you know, a stranger on the street, even if it looks like you as in, you know, same gender, same age group, same skin color, whatever.
00:21:44
Speaker
it's never is never going to be really your peer in that sense that convince you. But I think it's important. Like you were saying that people never met a vegan. It's true. I mean, it's only what, 3% of the population. It's very likely you never met a vegan or, well, not us, but most people have never met a vegan or if they've met a vegan, they don't even know that person is a vegan because, you know, their interactions never kind of led to that conversation.
00:22:09
Speaker
But one of the things I really love about outreach is that when people say, no, because we need meat to be healthy, as your a person said, and you could just go, well, I'm standing right in front of you.
00:22:22
Speaker
You know, and there's that old lady there, you know, she she's been a vegan for 50 years. And there's a child there who has been raised as a vegan, has never eaten any animal products, you know, where we with the living embodiment of of it.
00:22:37
Speaker
And that's really powerful. We get, you know, dessertlings on a Saturday. We usually get... you know about 12 people out, and there's like all jet you know but and all genders and age groups and skin colors among our groups. so even if they say, oh, sorry, my cult, oh, that's a thing white people do. Well, you know, there's...
00:22:59
Speaker
There's non-white vegans here as well. You know, there's, you know, old vegans, young vegans, you know, straight vegans, gay vegans, you know, there's there's quite a bit big big mix. And I think it's really important to kind of exist as a vegan, I guess, in a public space.
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah. i um ah One one out outreach I did, there were these guys that were we're insisting that a guy who was holding one of the screens, well, he's not vegan because he was like, you know, quite ripped.
00:23:27
Speaker
And... I went, yes, he is. And they went, no, he can't be vegan. I said, well, he is. And did you know there are vegan bodybuilders and all that, the vegan sorts of, you know, so I don't know. I just find it so interesting.
00:23:42
Speaker
But I, ah you know, I probably mentioned before I had, One woman, she was getting it. We don't know. Maybe we're just a little drop of information on the way. We're just one little thing.
00:23:55
Speaker
But I did witness one woman woman who just said, right, that's it. I'm doing it now. She already had a vegan son. But she was like, she saw she saw this footage on calves in in a slaughterhouse and she went, that's it, I'm done now.
00:24:10
Speaker
It was the cheese. She couldn't kick it That was it, I'm done. So, you know, it does happen, but that was obviously at the end of a a whole thing. But last weekend, let me just tell you, somebody told me who does regular outreach, I think in Exeter, and he said he'd had ah quite a heated discussion with the guy.
00:24:31
Speaker
And who was who was like just arguing back, arguing back, argu really angry, really angry. Anyway, this chap went home. He came back the following week and he said, thank you so much.
00:24:45
Speaker
I really thought about everything you said to me and I'm going vegan. So it does happen. it does happen. You know, and um I don't know, i just find it really life affirming because like in the video that you've shared, Anthony, you know, people, when they see it, some them are really trying hard to justify it but or justify their choices. But actually, when you see it, and the industry, it bends over backwards to make sure we know nothing about what's really going on.
00:25:22
Speaker
so Let's face it, we are actually showing people. And it can be really shocking. But people do need to know, they need to know. and then, you know, think about it, they may not go vegan straight away.
00:25:35
Speaker
they They may have a load of pushbacks. ah just I just think it's just really powerful for people, yeah to be honest.
Emotional Encounters in Outreach
00:25:42
Speaker
I mean, even even that person who said, I thought about it and I and i went vegan the week after, that they didn't become vegan in a week. That was like a long process.
00:25:53
Speaker
where meeting and talking to a person doing street outreach was just kind of the last event on that chain of change, I guess. and So it's really hard to quantify if it's important not important, but, you know, there's lot of anecdotes like that. I had i had a lady, I wasn't talking to her. she was I was kind of talking to somebody and this person was talking to another outreacher next to me and she just started crying, you know.
00:26:19
Speaker
She started crying, needed a hug. and And she said, i can't anymore. i kept lying to myself and and I just can't anymore. And I think she just needed ah vegan to talk to, if you if that makes sense. You know, somebody who would understand what she was feeling inside her, because obviously talking to her kind of ah non-vegan friends would not, they would not understand the conflict. So she just needed like a vegan to talk to and kind of open her heart to.
00:26:47
Speaker
Yeah. So I don't know if she became a vegan or not, because I didn't, you know, we didn't, we don't got to get people's numbers and call them after 30 days. But, but, you know, we can only hope I can only hope. Certainly she seemed very convinced and very emotional about the whole thing Yeah, I will say i think we've touched upon a lot of very valid reasons for this kind of outreach. And of course, there is no golden bullet. If there was and we knew what it was, then we wouldn't bother doing anything else. We'd just do that one thing.
00:27:18
Speaker
That doesn't exist.
The Role of Human Connection in Activism
00:27:20
Speaker
Something that that came to my mind, and again, i do not want to criticise George Martin, this guy who's on the video, specifically because I think This is just an example of something that I have seen and I've I have been complicit in it myself. i think sometimes there can be a tendency when having conversations like this, particularly with people that we've just met and they're going to walk away again afterwards.
00:27:46
Speaker
I think there can be a tendency towards coming up with like a list of arguments, a list of facts. and And we're kind of trying to like almost like jousting. We're like running at someone with all our facts and we're trying to knock them off their horse with their.
00:27:59
Speaker
with their facts whatever. And I think, Carlos, you you cited earlier, like the most common way that folk feel empowered and ready to try veganism themselves is through family and friends.
00:28:12
Speaker
And I think what that speaks to is the fact that it's the human connection there that has made that happen. And of course, we want to have logical and real and authentic relationships arguments behind that connection we can't just be vacuous and just well i'm a really nice person so please just do what i want like there needs to be rationale behind it but i've certainly seen conversations like this come across a bit cold and i wonder whether like in in the example of this youtube channel and like joey carbstrong and earthling ed lots lots of people
00:28:46
Speaker
have YouTube channels like this. I wonder sometimes whether some of that is slightly performative just to show, well, here are some of the arguments you can use. And they're not necessarily the best examples of building human connection with someone that you've just met, because I think that is the most important thing.
00:29:02
Speaker
Like we're all, we're we're all just social animals wanting some connection. And if someone has chosen to stop and talk to you, i think it would be a shame to try and over rationalize and just bombard them, ba bam bam, bam, bam, like some sort of university debate or something.
00:29:18
Speaker
I think making sure the human warmth and the connection in there is important. I remember um having a conversation with a guy who was vegetarian. This was it and one of the anonymous for the voiceless things I did.
00:29:30
Speaker
He was vegetarian and he was so upset at seeing what was happening to cows in the dairy industry because he thought, um he sorry, I should have said he was ah culturally from a Hindu background. He thought he was doing right by cows and he was seeing their you know, evidence that that wasn't the case. And what he needed was comfort.
00:29:50
Speaker
He didn't need to be told that he was wrong or there told you so. He just needed comfort and another human being to be like, I'm really sorry that this is happening. Like I care about animals too. This must be really difficult for you.
00:30:03
Speaker
The good news is there's something you can do about it. um So I just wanted to kind of put a pitch in there for human warmth and kindness that I think needs to accompany all of our very rational facts as well.
Sensitivity and Encouragement in Outreach
00:30:14
Speaker
I was going say, I think you're so right about that, Anthony. You know, just sensitivity. I've got a friend that I've done outreach with and she's just so good at adolescent lads, you know, just knowing where they are and, you know, with all the bravado and she's like looking at them thinking, you're about to cry, aren't you? You know, and, you know, just...
00:30:37
Speaker
you know It is shocking. is shocking. And yeah, you're right. We need to give them somewhere safe to land as well with this. So that's a really good point.
00:30:49
Speaker
I will just add to what you said. ah you know people are People who are on the defensive are very unlikely to be receptive to arguments. And i I didn't become a better person when I became a vegan. I was i um was still the same person.
00:31:04
Speaker
yeah. There's no point in kind of chastising people who are having a conversation with you. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what they used to do. It doesn't matter. Just just focus on the the person they can become, you know, the vegan they can become.
00:31:17
Speaker
um I'd just like to say it's not necessarily for everyone.
Alternative Advocacy Methods
00:31:21
Speaker
You know, not everyone's going to feel comfortable standing in the street talking to strange people. And there's loads of other ways to advocate and, you know, whatever whatever way feels comfortable for you, including just making yummy food for your friends and family or whoever want.
00:31:39
Speaker
you know just being an example of a wonderful a fabulous vegan in whatever way or a horrible vegan whatever feels right for you yeah or being a vegan runner wearing your vegan top as you run around wherever it is and you know there's so so many different ways of doing it you know just proving that you're vegan and you're not dead yet is just good I think so Good chat, good chat. Well, we would love to hear from you if you're a horrible vegan or a vegan runner or somebody that's been provoked by our conversation or cogs have started turning.
Engaging the Audience and Spreading the Word
00:32:17
Speaker
We'd really love to hear your perspective on this topic or indeed anything else that you think might be interesting for us to talk about on this podcast. Here is how to get in touch with us.
00:32:28
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:32:47
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. Enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Well, thank you very much, Carlos and Kate, for your contributions for today's show. We're just a bunch of everyday vegans. None of us claim to be experts or anything like that. We're just putting our voices out there trying to do something that's maybe a bit educational, bit entertaining, um informative.
00:33:11
Speaker
So if you can share what we do, that will be absolutely fabulous. share Share this episode or another one with someone who might enjoy it and or get onto to either um the podcast app if you're a an iPhone user or Spotify, if you're listening that way, um and just leave us a review.
00:33:29
Speaker
You can be honest. If you don't think it's worth five stars, don't give us five stars. But um both of those things really help other people come across our work, which um we'd be very grateful for. Here's a heads up for the next Enough of the Palafalafel episode coming out.
00:33:43
Speaker
That will be from Monday, 28th of April, ah featuring Paul, Mark and Ant. And it will be our regular Vegan Week episode, which is our roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:33:56
Speaker
So anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode.
Closing and Reflections
00:34:00
Speaker
Thanks, Carlos. And thanks, Anthony, for your absolutely fantastic contributions and a really great chat.
00:34:07
Speaker
Thank you to all our lovely listeners and all our horrible listeners as well. I've been Kate and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:34:22
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:34:37
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening, and see you next time.
00:35:03
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:35:24
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from