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Episode 18 - Is "DIY" Bullshit?
1.5k Plays3 months ago
The current crop of DIY shows make us feel as though we can build anything quickly and easily over the course of a weekend with only a few tools. But is this ACTUALLY TRUE??? Are DIY influencers selling us a fantasy as a form of entertainment or are they really teaching us how to make things and improve our homes? In this episode, we review a brief history of DIY culture and how it developed, which helps us to understand the complex nature of DIY as it exists today. We have a ROUSING episode of WIBS Debate Club, where Erik and Mary pick sides of the DIY argument and the GLOVES COME OFF!
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Controversial Topics
00:00:16
pjasper
Hey-o, and we're back.
Paul's Instagram Handle: 'Wood Ductress'
00:00:20
pjasper
you're Your favorite troublemakers who like to take on topics that probably get us canceled at some point. This is, woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined with my two amazing co-hosts, Eric Curtis on the left.
00:00:38
pjasper
They're together. They're together and it's trouble. Uh, Eric Curtis on the left, uh, full-time furniture maker and content creator and Mary saw UX designer by day and would work dress by night.
00:00:38
shootbootyrok
Hey y'all!
00:00:52
shootbootyrok
Oh, yeah. Wood ductress, baby.
00:00:55
pjasper
Hey, you still got that?
00:00:56
pjasper
Yeah.
00:00:56
shootbootyrok
Oh, yeah.
00:00:57
shootbootyrok
Oh, my god.
00:00:58
pjasper
Do we, does she have any followers or posts yet? Did that account?
00:01:00
shootbootyrok
Oh, a couple of people have followed. What? Yeah, you guys. So for those of you who don't know, well i did I did manage to steal wood ductress as an Instagram handle. And it's now the the number one fan site, erotic fan site of Mary Sire on the internet. Wait, you do not.
00:01:18
pjasper
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
00:01:19
shootbootyrok
You did not say erotic on it. Did you? Oh my god.
00:01:26
shootbootyrok
So you guys should go follow that. You did not. Oh my god. Let's blow it up. Let's blow it up. Why are we friends?
00:01:38
shootbootyrok
Why are we friends? Oh my god. ah It's great.
00:01:42
pjasper
Okay, so why are we friends? Great question. Anyway, we have other questions.
Is DIY Culture Just Marketing Nonsense?
00:01:46
pjasper
ah We have other questions to get to and today's question is another bomb. I'm sure it's gonna upset and ruffle a lot of feathers. Today's question is quite simply is DIY is DIY just marketing bullshit? DIY culture? Like, is it just a bunch of horseshit?
00:02:05
shootbootyrok
Yikes.
Defining DIY: Accessibility and Economics
00:02:06
pjasper
And when we started thinking about this, ah the first thing I was like, well, yeah, what is DIY?
00:02:07
shootbootyrok
Oh my god.
00:02:13
pjasper
how How is that? What exactly do we mean?
00:02:15
shootbootyrok
Can we define DIY? Mary, can we define DIY?
00:02:19
pjasper
Mary's so good at defining things, we thought she would take the lead on that.
00:02:20
shootbootyrok
i That is false. I'm good at asking what the definition is. I have the tables have turned.
00:02:28
pjasper
That's true, Mary.
00:02:29
shootbootyrok
I mean, I could try to find it. To be fair, I have no idea and did zero research on this. Also shocking.
00:02:35
pjasper
Okay.
00:02:36
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
00:02:36
shootbootyrok
It's very out of character for you.
00:02:38
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:02:38
pjasper
Thank you for your huge preparatory work.
00:02:41
shootbootyrok
Okay, you really turn this on? Okay, all right. I present all of this. DIY stands for do it yourself. ah This is like a fifth grade book report already.
00:02:51
pjasper
and Well, yeah. like like so
00:02:52
shootbootyrok
This is like, Charlie.
00:02:55
pjasper
yeah
00:02:55
shootbootyrok
My favorite thing about the grapes of wrath were the fruit. And the anger. okay
00:03:04
pjasper
It means, it means do it yourself.
00:03:05
shootbootyrok
yeah okay
00:03:09
shootbootyrok
We hadn't, we hadn't spelled it out for people who are living in holes. DIY stands for do it yourself. It involves a lower barrier of entry, I think into the making world. So people who have materials accessible at, for example, Home Depot and Lowe's, maybe working with ah Pine more and being able to renovate your houses. So a little bit of an easier barrier of entry into the making world. I know I'm missing a large chunk of that as Eric's face is telling me. No, that wasn't that wasn't bad. That wasn't a bad definition. I think I would, if I had to attempt to define DIY outside of telling you all that it stands for do it yourself. Oh my god. I would maybe suggest that DIY is um a person who is not
00:04:02
shootbootyrok
traditionally or professionally trained in an area, taking up a project in that area to accomplish an end. Not necessarily to sell an object, not necessarily to try to to make something super high end, but to accomplish um having that thing done for typically less money than it would cost to to hire somebody to do a thing.
The History and Rise of DIY
00:04:26
shootbootyrok
I think the financial aspect of it is not without mention, like I think that's an important component is people don't want to pay.
00:04:34
shootbootyrok
Well, let's, it doesn't have to be, let's just take outside of the woodworking, you know, oeuvre in and of itself. Let's say somebody wants to, I'm not allowed to say oeuvre.
00:04:41
pjasper
What, wait, what, what, what, what, what? What the hell's oeuvre?
00:04:45
shootbootyrok
Genre? Don't act like you two fuckers don't know what oeuvre means. I know what the word of it is. Both of you know what oeuvre means.
00:04:49
pjasper
I don't, it I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
00:04:51
shootbootyrok
But no one says it. It means genre. No one says it. Are you saying O-U-E-V-R-E? O-U-V-R. Yeah, I don't know how to fucking spell French.
00:05:01
pjasper
I,
00:05:02
shootbootyrok
All right. You know what is? I'm a homegrown American boy. I grew up eating bald eagles.
00:05:08
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:05:10
pjasper
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
00:05:10
shootbootyrok
You didn't? Gator and eagle for dinner.
00:05:13
pjasper
um ah By the way, oeuvre in French means to open, so I'm not sure what you mean, genre.
00:05:19
shootbootyrok
Well, depends on which friend. Guys, work let's move on. So what was I saying?
00:05:24
pjasper
Okay, move on. Eric, stop using stupid words like...
00:05:27
shootbootyrok
Something about oeuvre?
00:05:28
pjasper
Well, no, your your point was that DIY came up as a way to like figure shit out on your own that you know you needed.
00:05:34
shootbootyrok
Yeah, so so outside of the woodworking context, I think there are people who say like, listen, I have tools and I have the ability, like I have a working back.
00:05:37
pjasper
Yep.
00:05:44
shootbootyrok
I'm gonna figure out how to install fences. And that I think has its value and teaches people that they are capable of meeting an end.
00:05:52
pjasper
Okay, so this is very much, it bears on the history of DIY, which I took the liberty to look up, unlike Mary. So when I i did this research, I'm just kidding, Mary.
00:06:05
shootbootyrok
It's giving me so much shit.
00:06:08
pjasper
When I took the time to generously do this research, I learned i learned that apparently the origins of DIY are from the 1600s.
00:06:12
shootbootyrok
Oh my god.
00:06:20
shootbootyrok
Really?
00:06:20
pjasper
I was like, what?
00:06:21
shootbootyrok
that's surprising That's genuinely surprising.
00:06:24
pjasper
ah Apparently, Joseph Moxon wrote a book called The Mechanic Exercises, and it was a how-to manual for how to blacksmith, how to cast metal, how to draw, how to do wood and joinery, how to engrave, how to print books, make maps, make mathematical instruments, and other. It was like a how to do it book, like a DIY book.
00:06:46
shootbootyrok
It's like an encyclopedia.
00:06:48
pjasper
but it was all DIY related.
00:06:49
shootbootyrok
Huh.
00:06:50
pjasper
And so, and then, you know, so, so that, that's one of the earliest examples.
00:06:52
shootbootyrok
What?
00:06:54
pjasper
And then, sure.
00:06:54
shootbootyrok
can Can I pause there for half a second? Because I'm really curious, and you may not have an answer to this. And this may just be Eric's brain going off on ADD different roads. But I'm curious, most people couldn't read at that point. So the the literacy, well, here's what I'm wondering, is like is this DIY manual made specifically for like, is it a picture book?
00:07:07
pjasper
Well,
00:07:15
shootbootyrok
Well, is it a picture book? But also, like the gentry who don't typically work with their hands to like, If you want to learn how to build a thing, like I'm just, um I'm thinking out loud.
00:07:25
pjasper
ah Yeah, Eric.
00:07:26
shootbootyrok
It would be really interesting to know who the intended audience was for that book.
00:07:29
pjasper
Eric, unfortunately, I did not over the book, so I don't know
Impact of 1970s Counterculture on DIY
00:07:33
pjasper
what's inside it.
00:07:34
pjasper
Okay. ah
00:07:34
shootbootyrok
um
00:07:36
shootbootyrok
You didn't roll that R back.
00:07:36
pjasper
so Alright, um
00:07:40
shootbootyrok
Oh my God.
00:07:40
pjasper
ah all right so then in the mid 1800s, I guess there was an explosion of DIY culture. ah They were saying, you know, you marry the head to the hands. And ah it was a matter of necessity, apparently in the 1800s, because there was a population explosion, people were having many kids. And so being able to afford toys at home was like, not that easy. And so they would make toys for their kids. And then so that's the 1800s and now we get to the 1900s and 1920s. My dad ah was born in the 30s, I remember.
00:08:13
pjasper
And he you know that that relates to the economic disasters and the depression ah in the 1920s and 30s.
00:08:17
shootbootyrok
Oh. Mm-hmm.
00:08:21
pjasper
And my dad grew up through the post-depression era and he was always very affected by growing up as a child of the depression. And ah his mother would make his pants because she was a seamstress. So she would make his pants at home. And he yeah I remember him telling me stories of being absolutely humiliated going into school in pants that his mother sewed.
00:08:43
shootbootyrok
ye Yep,
00:08:46
pjasper
I felt kind of bad for him because I can imagine all the other kids have like the store brought pants and your your mother's like sewing your pants.
00:08:50
shootbootyrok
Hmm.
00:08:54
pjasper
But anyway, the The economic trials and tribulations of the 20s and 30s stimulated DIY, because people wanted to put on that, hey, we still have our shit together at home, on the homestead, even though we have very little money. So DIY became very important. And same with World War II. Self-reliance became ah on center stage you know during the war. You know you shouldn't look, you know we don't need, ah to go outside the United States, you know we're we're capable and we're self-reliant.
Generational Decline in DIY Skills
00:09:27
pjasper
All right, so now we're through the 1900s and then around um the 1950s, there was more change. There was a shorter work week and more home ownership. Everyone started buying houses after the war. And even in my neighborhood, we call it ranch land. There's a whole bunch of World War II ranches, like post World War II ranches that all the soldiers and all the families with this newfound money could buy. And so when they all have houses now, well, Who's gonna fix those houses?
00:09:58
pjasper
And now we get to the first TV shows. So around the 1950s was the first DIY TV show and Do It Yourself magazine. So that, it all makes sense. It came on the hill the the heels of like people buying all these houses and DIY magazines and DIY shows.
00:10:13
shootbootyrok
Do you know what the show was?
00:10:14
pjasper
And now we get to, ah yeah, I don't remember the name.
00:10:16
shootbootyrok
What the first show was? I was curious.
00:10:19
pjasper
I didn't know it when I read it.
00:10:20
shootbootyrok
Is it called Instant Dream Home?
00:10:26
shootbootyrok
This the weirdest episode of the Twilight Zone you've ever seen. I'm actually 79 years old.
00:10:33
pjasper
i ah weekly do-it-yourself TV guide ah Barry Bucknell I think it's Bucknell's
00:10:40
shootbootyrok
Fucking classic berry. Interesting, okay.
00:10:43
pjasper
house I think it was called all right so now we're up to the 1950s And we have the the the TV is coming online and the shows are coming online. And now we have 1970s with counterculture, right? The reaction to mass produced goods. the Vietnam War, tune in, turn turn on, tune in, drop out, call counterculture, you know, all the the the hippie movement, like go against mainstream, do it yourself, grow it yourself, make it yourself, like let's not drink the Kool-Aid, we can do this ourselves. So I think 1970s had the counterculture, and then we come into things we are familiar with, but which is like um better homes and gardens, right?
00:11:30
shootbootyrok
yeah
00:11:30
pjasper
We know we're vaguely familiar with that. And this old house, right?
00:11:35
shootbootyrok
yeah Yep, yep, yep.
00:11:36
pjasper
Like, so I mean, there's, you know, I didn't really have all this in place prior to doing this research.
00:11:37
shootbootyrok
Yep.
00:11:42
pjasper
But now that I see there's a long, long, very sensical history of DIY.
00:11:50
shootbootyrok
Sure. You will. You have to, you have to know how to survive if you don't have the means to pay somebody else to keep you alive.
00:11:51
pjasper
Right.
00:11:57
shootbootyrok
I think that's largely what it comes down to. And in what way?
00:11:59
pjasper
And where are we today, though, Eric? like Today, I feel like we've slid back. like In the 1950s and 60s, everyone knew how to do plumbing, how to sweat copper, how to do some well like base electrical like ah you know outlets and and receptacles, and and every and and some basic woodworking and some basic metalworking.
00:12:13
shootbootyrok
Sure.
00:12:20
shootbootyrok
Yeah, yeah, basic home shit.
00:12:24
pjasper
Today, I'm like the only person in my, like, in not the only, but the number of people who knows this is dwindling severely. Like gen the millennials and generation Z is, is just doesn't give a shit usually.
00:12:36
shootbootyrok
Well, but but is is that a result? Is that a result of of economic prosperity and hyper specialization, right?
00:12:47
pjasper
It is. I think, yeah, I think it is.
00:12:49
shootbootyrok
So the the more capital that you have to expend, the more you don't need to learn to do a thing because you can pay somebody else to do it.
00:12:49
pjasper
Yep.
00:12:56
pjasper
Yeah.
00:12:57
shootbootyrok
And there is an economic theory that that's good for the economy because not only are you then more specialized in your area, but you're promoting other small businesses by supporting them economically. So I don't think that's without its value, but
00:13:09
pjasper
yeah
00:13:12
shootbootyrok
You know, like realistically, I learned how to do electrical. I learned how to do plumbing. I learned how to do framing. I learned how to do tiling because when things broke in my house and I was a kid and we couldn't afford to fix them, I had to figure out how to fix them.
00:13:24
pjasper
Yeah.
00:13:28
shootbootyrok
ah Like if that outlet burned out, I either figured out how to wire it or we didn't have an outlet.
00:13:29
pjasper
Hmm.
00:13:33
shootbootyrok
You know, that's the end of the day, but I was 14. So like, of course, if my mother had the money to pay somebody to come fix it, it would have been a smarter decision to pay a trained professional to come fix that outlet. But you know, necessity is the mother of invention.
00:13:47
pjasper
Oh, that seems to be that seems to be the the theme through the whole history of DIY, which is like necessity, basically.
00:13:48
shootbootyrok
So you figure out how to do it.
00:13:55
shootbootyrok
Hmm. Isn't there an uptick in the enrollment in trade schools, though, in the past few years?
00:14:01
pjasper
past couple years.
00:14:02
shootbootyrok
I feel like I've heard that.
00:14:03
pjasper
Yeah. Because I think as, as college has become so financially fucked, so stupid, people are asking, do we really need to go to, does, do all of us really need to go to college?
00:14:09
shootbootyrok
So expensive, yeah.
00:14:16
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:14:17
pjasper
In fact, my neighbor's kid, he does not have a propensity for, for book learning and and classes. He's a smart kid, but that's just not his language.
00:14:26
shootbootyrok
Because you can make good money now.
00:14:27
pjasper
He's more, uh, yeah, he's more of a doer. So they, they,
00:14:30
shootbootyrok
Well, you could always make good money doing it, but that's true.
00:14:32
pjasper
Well, they they they figured this out early with him and they're like, he's going to go to a trade high school. Cause I think that just makes sense for him. And I was like, that is a great idea.
00:14:41
shootbootyrok
You will always need plumbers. Yeah. And as long as electricity is around, you will always need electricians.
00:14:43
pjasper
Yeah.
00:14:46
shootbootyrok
Plus it's like when that divide widens even more, the need for those people who can afford, you know, the trade school folks, like that's, they're going to be able to charge more and more.
00:14:53
pjasper
Yeah.
00:14:59
pjasper
So have you seen this, this pattern though, that I'm talking about where like the millennials and generation Z
Societal Views on Blue-collar vs White-collar Jobs
00:15:05
pjasper
are actually like really not. and they They didn't have someone show them the ropes of electrical of plumbing of DIY.
00:15:12
shootbootyrok
Oh, yeah, no, no, nobody showed me the ropes. Like it literally was I had to the first time I sweat copper, I didn't know what flux was. So I had two pieces of copper, and I had some solder, and I heated them up and I couldn't get it to sweat properly and I couldn't figure it the fuck out until finally I walked over in my neighbor's house who I knew well enough. And I was like, Hey, Dan, why like, this doesn't look like the pipes that are in my house. And he was like, yeah, cause you don't have any flux on the goddamn joint idiot. Like, but that's how, that's how you learn things is by people teaching you those things.
00:15:44
pjasper
Yeah.
00:15:45
shootbootyrok
And if nobody is available to teach you and you don't have YouTube because the year is 2003 or whatever it is, then you just have to piecemeal it together.
00:15:46
pjasper
Eric.
00:15:56
pjasper
I learned it when I bought my house and how the 80 year old guy who got me into woodworking, he showed me how to sweat copper.
00:16:01
pjasper
He showed me how to ah wire electrical outlets. He explained the amperage and voltage.
00:16:01
shootbootyrok
Mm-hmm.
00:16:06
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:16:07
pjasper
I was so lucky to have that. And I do try to pay that forward to the the new kids in the neighborhood. If they have questions or whatever, I definitely try to pay it forward. Mary, how about you? Were you exposed to these DIY things?
00:16:17
shootbootyrok
No!
00:16:20
pjasper
No.
00:16:21
shootbootyrok
Absolutely not. My parents are the least handy people in the world. ah And I think that is actually why my brother and I turned out the way we did because we saw how incapable they were of doing any sort of DIY handiness. And we're like, all right, we got to like actually learn this stuff because we see how much they struggle because they didn't have we didn't have that much money growing up. So I don't even know there was just like the shoddiest patchwork things and like probably not very safe either. So I i think yeah I was mostly learning it either just from like the internet. I think YouTube has been huge for me and just learning basic things in the past two years that I probably should have learned growing up but I just never had access to. So I'm curious about your experience. What I have seen as a general trend and this is not
00:17:12
shootbootyrok
You know, but it it's not everybody's experience, but I think generally people who are forced to work with their hands as a means to get by and then escape that life. Let's take your father, for example, like you know, didn't have a lot of money, came over here, found himself in a good career and was able to provide you guys with what he assumes is a better life than what he had. yeahp those types of folks generally speaking will shun people who work with their hands not because they're lesser than but because they think that they have ascended to a level of ah economic prosperity where they don't need to work with their hands and therefore they won't. and was Was your experience growing up one that suggested people who work with their hands were lesser than people who don't?
00:18:03
shootbootyrok
I don't know if it was that explicit. I think my parents always wanted me and my brother to be in white-collar jobs because they thought that is where more of the money was made. I think in their mind, and especially in their country growing up, like blue-collar jobs and trade positions, they didn't make as much money as they do now, and especially maybe in the U.S. comparatively to Taiwan. So I think that was always the goal to you know push us towards white-collar jobs and education and going to college, e etc. I don't think that is explicitly said, though, that they were like, I don't know, lesser than. i Because when, you know, something wrong happened, we had to pay for it. So sure it's, the that you know, yeah, it's the luxury of paying for
Balancing DIY Skills and Economic Considerations
00:18:52
shootbootyrok
convenience. And I think when I was, ah when I was growing up, I was like, Oh, like, I
00:18:59
shootbootyrok
I don't know. I think I like, I'll never be that kind of person who pays for convenience. So that's why I wanted to learn all these things and Eric's laughing because now these days I'm like, Oh, I'm 100% paying for convenience. I don't know what you're talking about. I come back you around to that. You are the most get your hands dirty toil in the mud kind of person that I know real real blue collar, you know, America. I used to have that mentality and now I'm just like, oh my God, I don't have time. I don't have, I just don't want to deal with this. Hey, you know what, in fairness, in fairness to you.
00:19:34
shootbootyrok
That is, I think that's even people who work with their hands for a living. That's a level of economic prosperity that I think everybody aims to achieve. Like if you work, if you build houses for a living, like the cobbler kids have no shoes situation. You don't want to come home from work and fix your house. yeah A lot of the contractors that I know who are successful and run major businesses pay their guys to come fix their house because they don't have the time or the energy at the end of the day to do the shit. I will say what is nice is being able to have that background and understand that they're not ripping you off.
00:20:09
shootbootyrok
So being able to understand what is going on. Is this a good deal? Are they doing it properly?
00:20:14
pjasper
Yeah.
00:20:15
shootbootyrok
Like that having that context is great.
00:20:18
pjasper
And yes, and you you know when it's worth your money to pay for it and you know when it's not because you know what's being done and you can see if they're doing what you really want them to do.
00:20:21
shootbootyrok
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
00:20:29
pjasper
So for me, I've always felt strongly, and I think this is just who I am, that I don't want to be incapable of doing the things I need for myself or my family.
00:20:40
shootbootyrok
Hmm.
00:20:42
pjasper
So every piece of work on this house, I have pretty much done it all myself. And it's it's for two reasons, because number one, I know I'm going to do a good job. i I don't not do a good job on my own house. No one cares more about this house than we do.
00:20:59
shootbootyrok
and
00:21:02
pjasper
And um because I. I have some like skill sets, at least a base of skill sets. I know I can figure it out. So when the wife's like, Hey, can we redo our bathroom or Hey, can we do redo the kitchen? I may not have taught, I've never tiled before the kitchen. And I'm like, how hard could it be? You know, like if woodwork, like woodworking is pretty tough. So how can I not.
00:21:24
shootbootyrok
That's a specialized, o but tiling's easy.
00:21:26
pjasper
I mean, woodworking's pretty tough, right? and it No, I'm not saying tiling's easy, but no, no, no, no, no, I wasn't saying that.
00:21:30
shootbootyrok
like words yeah
00:21:34
pjasper
but if if But if I have the perseverance to figure woodworking out, I bet I can figure tiling out.
00:21:39
shootbootyrok
Sure. Sure.
00:21:40
pjasper
That's what I meant. Not that one's easier and one's not.
00:21:41
shootbootyrok
Sure.
00:21:42
pjasper
All right, fine.
00:21:42
shootbootyrok
Yeah. No, that's it.
00:21:43
pjasper
Thanks for being a dick.
00:21:44
shootbootyrok
That's it. That's it.
00:21:49
shootbootyrok
That's a fair, that's a fair point though. Right? Like it. April, my buddy April always will you guys both know April to April Wilkerson, she always says every everything is figureoutable.
00:21:57
pjasper
Yeah, yeah, she's great.
00:22:00
shootbootyrok
And and I think that's true, right?
00:22:00
pjasper
It is.
00:22:02
shootbootyrok
Like if you want to if you make the decision that you are going to figure out how to do the thing, you can figure out how to do the thing now more than ever before in human history, because you have
00:22:02
pjasper
Yeah.
00:22:07
pjasper
Yeah.
00:22:10
pjasper
yeah
00:22:12
shootbootyrok
the largest library in the history of humanity at your fingertips at all times in your pocket.
00:22:17
pjasper
This is true.
00:22:17
shootbootyrok
So you can figure out how to do anything. It's just a question of whether or not you want to, or you need to.
Debating DIY Culture: Craft, Society, and Environment
00:22:24
shootbootyrok
So I think like coming back to the, the question of is DIY, uh, marketing bullshit, like right off the jump, it's not because there's a history there long before. Contemporary marketing kicked in and people making money from being a DIY or
00:22:41
pjasper
so So Eric, then where did we go south? You're you're picking up exactly where I wanted to go, which is, there's also this feeling these days of like, is DIY bullshit? Things, you took a turn a little bit and you you're starting to talk to that. So um before you elaborate on why it turned, I've decided that Mary and Eric are gonna take turns discussing whether DIY why it's good and why it perhaps a why it's bad.
00:23:08
shootbootyrok
Ooh. Ooh. Whibs Debate Club.
00:23:13
pjasper
Okay, we're gonna have a little debate. Yeah, and a little internal debate.
00:23:15
shootbootyrok
Okay. Okay.
00:23:16
pjasper
Whips. Did you say whips whips to bake up?
00:23:17
shootbootyrok
Whibs Debate Club. Yup. Whibs Debate Club, baby.
00:23:21
pjasper
My god is is this podcast called whips now?
00:23:25
shootbootyrok
i don't I don't love that.
00:23:27
pjasper
ah
00:23:28
shootbootyrok
the We got to have a nickname for the people who listen. The Whibbies. The Whib Whippers. The Whib Whippers.
00:23:36
pjasper
What the hell?
00:23:37
shootbootyrok
Oh my God. the whi Whippers feels right.
00:23:38
pjasper
Oh my god.
00:23:39
shootbootyrok
That feels mildly pseudo sexual.
00:23:42
pjasper
All right.
00:23:43
shootbootyrok
Who's defending what? Pseudo sexual.
00:23:44
pjasper
Okay, so Mary, you're going to list reasons why you think DIY is good for people good for society and good in general for the craft.
00:23:55
shootbootyrok
Love it.
00:23:55
pjasper
And Eric, you're the evil axis.
00:23:58
shootbootyrok
OK, all right.
00:23:59
pjasper
You're gonna you're gonna say why it's bad why you think it's bullshit and what things have gone
00:24:03
shootbootyrok
Oh, thank you for letting Eric get canceled. That's it. Love it. i Love it. That's fine.
00:24:10
pjasper
So a note to the listeners, a note to the listeners.
00:24:11
shootbootyrok
I can die on this hill.
00:24:14
pjasper
We knew we were going to do WIBs debate club, but they didn't know right before this moment right now, who was going to do which side. So good luck to you.
00:24:23
shootbootyrok
This is this is such a good segue. This is going to become ah a normal segue. I can feel it in my bones.
00:24:27
pjasper
ah and WIBs debate club.
00:24:29
shootbootyrok
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:29
pjasper
I actually like that.
00:24:30
shootbootyrok
Yeah. All right.
00:24:31
pjasper
Okay.
00:24:32
shootbootyrok
Wait, what's the question that we're debating?
00:24:34
pjasper
Oh Jesus. Are you asking for a definition?
00:24:37
shootbootyrok
No, I'm asking what the question is. The title of the episode. But are we OK? All right.
00:24:42
pjasper
I am i'm speechless. Mary, are you fucking kidding me right now?
00:24:45
shootbootyrok
We've been on we have been talking for 24 minutes and 50 fucking seconds. I wasn't sure for being a bit more specific on what ah either than like good versus bad. But all right. All right. Is DIY culture bullshit?
00:24:56
pjasper
Oh my God.
00:24:59
shootbootyrok
You have to you have to defend DIY cultures honor.
00:24:59
pjasper
mary what Mary, tell me why it's good.
00:25:02
shootbootyrok
OK.
00:25:04
pjasper
Mary, you lead.
00:25:05
pjasper
Give me one one.
00:25:05
shootbootyrok
ah Yeah.
00:25:07
shootbootyrok
Well, like one reason.
00:25:08
pjasper
One at a time and we'll go back and forth.
00:25:10
shootbootyrok
Oh, I see. Okay, gotcha. It's a great entry into making with your hands. Do I need to say more? or Wow. That's your opening argument in debate club. I've never been in debate club. So I do not believe you. What? We definitely did not have debate club in my school. You grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. You did not have debate club. We did not.
00:25:35
pjasper
Okay.
00:25:36
shootbootyrok
I'm not a confrontation. All right. So DIY culture is not good for the world, the movement, the craft, because while people are learning to build things with their hands, they are not learning how to build quality objects.
00:25:37
pjasper
Eric.
00:25:49
shootbootyrok
They're just getting things done and getting things done cheaply and not learning how to actually make sustainable objects that won't be torn down in five to 10 years when those fads and clicks are done.
00:26:02
pjasper
Ooh.
00:26:03
shootbootyrok
Okay.
00:26:03
pjasper
Oh, burn, Mary, burn.
00:26:08
shootbootyrok
point yeet right okay but that's how you do debate club baby let's go i did not realize that there's like a whole intro thing but all right uh second point i would say that that is an elitist point of view because the majority of people do not have access to those kinds of uh lessons and learning how to actually do these formal kinds of woodworking and
00:26:10
pjasper
ah first first First round, Eric. Go ahead, Mary. Take him down to the second round.
00:26:33
shootbootyrok
joiny etc so the majority of people are just figuring it out on the fly. And sure, if they want to get into that eventually, maybe that's why that's fine. But this is a large portion of folks who probably don't have the money or time.
00:26:49
pjasper
Eric, you elitist prick. Mary's leading off strong in round two.
00:26:53
shootbootyrok
That's a fair point.
00:26:53
pjasper
What do you say, bitch?
00:26:54
shootbootyrok
That's a fair point. You're right. It may be elitist to believe that mortise and tenons are better than screws. I'll give that to you. You may be elitist to believe that proper joinery is better than metal fasteners. However, I'm going to posit this question. um Where do you live? Philadelphia. Philadelphia. And Philadelphia is where? Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is on what planet? Oh my god. but So living as a resident of planet Earth. I'm going to ask you this question. Do you like the planet? Do you enjoy living on the planet?
00:27:27
shootbootyrok
And I wonder what happens if all of these people who are buying sheetrock in lumber and and masonite and tiles from your big box stores and promoting ah large corporations who are polluting the earth could potentially foresee a future in which the the waste that they are creating in order to create something that they think is beautiful and looks pretty in pictures online. ah could damage our environment and make an unlivable universe and potentially take down pine forests in one fell swoop in order to create ah you know like an arched entryway into their kitchen.
00:28:05
shootbootyrok
so That's what I'm wondering.
00:28:06
pjasper
Oh my god, Eric, you fucking dick.
00:28:12
shootbootyrok
Are you are you suggesting that these folks just deal with their current situations and never try to fix it? Not at all. That's an excellent counter argument, Mary. I'm so glad that you asked. I'm not suggesting
00:28:23
pjasper
Eric, wait, Eric, Eric, why don't you shut up and let Mary have her counterpoint?
00:28:24
shootbootyrok
that
00:28:28
shootbootyrok
She just asked me a question as her counterpoint. but Okay. So I mean, yeah, to elaborate your, your solution then is to just tell these people to get fucked.
00:28:32
pjasper
Mary,
00:28:39
shootbootyrok
Basically I say like deal with it. Like, you know, this is the best segment we've ever. done Yeah. You're just going to have to deal with like your rundown home and make no effort to try to improve it because you know, you're just gonna, that's just how it is. And we're going to place the environments worth over your immediate needs.
00:28:59
pjasper
That is such a good that you wait, can I just hit the pause button on you to argue bickering like children for a minute? Like that is such a great point.
00:29:05
shootbootyrok
ah for i like I like how he put us into this argument and then chastises us for bickering about it.
00:29:06
pjasper
with
00:29:12
pjasper
okay let me say that is the crux of the argument is like people want to live a decent life and they need to do it cheaply and quickly and on the other hand you have issues of sustainability and disposable furniture and impact on the environment and are you going to tell someone you know live in a shitty house because you know the concrete you're using is bad for the environment like this is this is the crux of a huge global problem is what you two are arguing about
00:29:39
shootbootyrok
And this is, this is, this is the crux of a real issue that I have no counterpoint for. And we're not in debate club anymore. This is sidebar because, ok because, because Mary's point was basically like either you live with shitty conditions or you figure out how to fix it. And the only counter argument to that, in my opinion, at this moment, to gin and tonics in is you learn how to make more sustainable materials, which is by definition, do it your fucking self.
Empowerment through DIY Knowledge Sharing
00:30:04
shootbootyrok
So you can DIY more sustainable materials in order to DIY better.
00:30:08
pjasper
Fair.
00:30:09
pjasper
All right, Mary, do do you have another positive? So your positives were, what were they? Now, ah yeah you get the things you need, necessity-driven.
00:30:09
shootbootyrok
You know, ah more, more accessible.
00:30:19
shootbootyrok
Yeah. Necessity driven. um but
00:30:21
pjasper
DIY is more accessible. Go ahead. Yeah.
00:30:23
shootbootyrok
Yeah, I guess if we're I can pivot a little bit to more of like the social media marketing side.
00:30:24
pjasper
What else?
00:30:31
shootbootyrok
So there is a huge positive in being able to put your knowledge out onto YouTube, which is an incredible library of knowledge and be able to um Like share your information with other people who are also in similar positions where you were before and just starting out being able to um Market yourself as someone who does know DIY and building a business from that That's a great thing especially for people who have no alt no other alternatives and life This is something that they learned themselves and they want to share that knowledge with other folks So it it sounds to me like what you're suggesting is
00:31:16
shootbootyrok
Well, for lack of a kinder way to phrase it, that that being unexceptional, like ordinarianism, if if we can quote a term or coin a phrase, is a good thing to suggest that people who don't have any real skill just be content with having non-skill, with just living their lives and creating a community around being wholly unexceptional in life and rather than ah desiring to better themselves and make better objects and spaces that what you're suggesting it sounds like is they just live content like pigs in the in the mark.
00:31:55
shootbootyrok
oh my god I'm going to take this and post it all over social media. I'm so excited. I'm going to get canceled.
00:32:03
pjasper
Hey, hey, Eric.
00:32:04
shootbootyrok
I just want to point out this. I'm I'm playing a role right now. This is called acting. This is why I have an Emmy.
00:32:09
pjasper
Eric, hey, hey, hey, look, at least we get married to promote the show for once if she's willing to share that clip.
00:32:10
shootbootyrok
i
00:32:17
shootbootyrok
All I'm saying is it sounds like you're suggesting people build a community around um not knowing a thing.
00:32:24
pjasper
Mediocrity.
00:32:25
shootbootyrok
mediocrity and that they don't, they don't chase betterment that they just exist.
00:32:26
pjasper
That's it.
00:32:31
pjasper
Okay, i okay third third party coming in hot and it's not me.
00:32:36
shootbootyrok
Oh, the mod, the moderator. Oh, okay.
00:32:38
pjasper
No, it's not me.
00:32:39
shootbootyrok
All right. Paul has a split personality now.
00:32:40
pjasper
My wife, my wife, my wife is team Mary.
00:32:43
shootbootyrok
My wife.
00:32:43
pjasper
She's like, listen, she's like, we all got to start somewhere. Early success can make you see that you can make things you're capable of making things. And a lot of people don't know that. And so these, what Mary was talking about these videos or these content creators or these DIYers, they show that it's approachable. It's relatable. It's easily digestible and it's designed for success in a weekend to make you realize you can do this. You can make this.
Media's Misrepresentation of DIY
00:33:10
pjasper
So my wife Vicki is team Mary on that point.
00:33:13
shootbootyrok
Okay. So if I had to counterpoint that again, this is not, this is my evil twin personality. i don't know We're going to cut all this. I just want to point out, this is the role I'm playing. But if I had to counterpoint that, um, that is the same technique that I used to take with my sixth graders. It is, it is, it is an idea that it doesn't matter if it's good or bad. They just have to get to the finish line. to then see that they are capable of doing a thing, and they can get better later, which is fair and true, but also it isn't it is a thing that you do with children.
00:33:41
pjasper
And, and Eric, Eric, are adults that different from children most of the time?
00:33:50
shootbootyrok
Not in my experience.
00:33:52
pjasper
Okay. All right. So we have all the good reasons and Eric, I'm going to give you a moment to, to, all right. So, um, yeah, wait, wait, don't,
00:34:00
shootbootyrok
i Listen, I need to clear the air. All right. All right, OK. Oh my god.
00:34:05
pjasper
All right, so go ahead. All right, you know, I think maybe it's time. I should let Eric clear the air because I put him on the bad side, the evil axis. And this is not how he feels. Eric, clear the air.
00:34:16
pjasper
You're on go.
00:34:16
shootbootyrok
All right.
00:34:18
shootbootyrok
DIY culture is a good thing. It is a net positive. People make things with their hands and find value in meaning and empowerment in that process and find community in that process. I think all of us, when we started the three of us, I mean, on social media, we were not Um, we, we were on our journey and we are farther along in our journey as woodworkers now than we were, you know, five years ago. And I think that community and conversation is really important.
00:34:48
pjasper
Right.
00:34:53
shootbootyrok
And, um, whatever it is that you are doing to make things with your hands, to realize that you are capable of making things with your hands is a good thing.
00:34:57
pjasper
Hmm.
00:35:03
shootbootyrok
And you are doing a net positive to humanity. even if I have to take the argument that DIY culture is stupid and manipulative in a podcast.
00:35:11
pjasper
It says the guy who has go make a thing on his t-shirt right now. okay ah so So I think the truth is all three of us obviously think that DIY is a great thing, but I think we have been turned off in the last few years by some concerning trends we saw and that's what we were touching on.
00:35:17
shootbootyrok
ah like I don't give a shit what you make, just make something.
00:35:30
shootbootyrok
It's GTV. It's GTV mostly.
00:35:32
pjasper
which is yeah it's like okay so let's talk about that because hgtv what what what you see on those shows is deceptive it's deceptively simple it
00:35:36
shootbootyrok
Okay.
00:35:44
shootbootyrok
oh yeah well this Can we can't we come to understand the difference? I wanna point this out for our audience who don't know when I say camera ready what I'm about to mean. Because camera ready and finished like in real life IRL are two different things. You can make an object that when somebody walks up to and interacts with it, it is beautiful, it feels right, it feels complete, it feels harmonious. Camera ready means that it needs to look good from 20 feet.
00:36:15
shootbootyrok
because you, even if that camera's up close, your TV is 10 to 15 feet away from you. And that is what you shoot for when you are on television. It has to look camera ready and that's an important differentiation.
00:36:23
pjasper
Okay. Okay, so sure. So there's camera. Yeah, I'm sure it's much harder to in real life to make it good than camera ready. You know, the deceptive practices, though, to me has to do with the editing. So in some ways, so you you you know, it makes everything look so quick, so easy, so simple, because they cut out the majority of the the trouble, the hard work, the the the problems you didn't anticipate.
00:36:38
shootbootyrok
Oh yeah.
00:36:53
pjasper
The drill bit broke you made a mistake all that's cut out it's all just like you know Bob Vila shows up to put in the last nail hey everybody snap snap snap it was so easy and it's not that easy and here I'm gonna know I'm gonna keep going you fucking wait and.
00:37:01
shootbootyrok
That's, that's.
00:37:09
pjasper
there The reason I get so upset about this is because then my wife thinks that I can do it that fast. And she's like, let's redo this. Let's redo that.
00:37:19
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:37:19
pjasper
let's read it And I'm like, do you know how difficult it is to do what you're asking? And she's like, i she's just like, no, I just saw it on the show.
00:37:25
shootbootyrok
That's just partners, man.
00:37:27
pjasper
They made it look super easy. So this was my solution. I was like, well, it's not super easy. And if you want me to do this next project, I will do it. But on one condition. you're gonna do it with me.
00:37:41
shootbootyrok
Uh-huh. Yep.
00:37:42
pjasper
And then, and she did, she's a trooper.
00:37:44
shootbootyrok
Yep.
00:37:45
pjasper
So I'm not i'm not giving her a hard time. She ponied up, she did every step was there with me. But I mean, it was actually good for a number of reasons because it was time spent together even if we were arguing half the time. But the the other reason it was good is because it did show her how involved the asks are so that it took her from the HGTV mentality of DIY.
00:37:58
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:38:05
shootbootyrok
yeah
00:38:08
pjasper
Oh, DIY, so easy, so quick to really what are the logistics of actually doing this as Eric likes to say IRL because that's what the kids say, apparently.
00:38:16
shootbootyrok
Hahaha.
00:38:17
pjasper
um Yeah, so that was my solution to bridging that gap from those fucking deceptive TV shows that influenced. All right.
00:38:27
shootbootyrok
I that's a fair point. I my main pushback with that would be if they were to air a show that was six hours long of somebody laying tile, you know who to watch it. You wouldn't fucking watch it because that's horseshit. Nobody you know the you know the reason why people walk away when people are laying tile because nobody wants to listen to the tile guy complain about his fucking wife for six hours.
00:38:42
pjasper
ah
00:38:50
shootbootyrok
Like that's how it goes. So it's hard thing to take
00:38:53
pjasper
Yeah.
00:38:55
shootbootyrok
something that takes that long and compress it into what would be an entertaining amount of time.
00:38:57
pjasper
yeah Yeah. Yeah. But that, that medium has, I think skewed our expectation of DIY.
Challenges in DIY: Tools, Materials, and Perfectionism
00:39:07
pjasper
I did want to point that out.
00:39:08
shootbootyrok
i Well, and that's a fair point, I think. That is just as much the fault of the viewer as it is of the producers of television because they haven't bothered to, like, get a secondary source.
00:39:16
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:22
shootbootyrok
Just Google, like, how long does it take to tile a bathroom?
00:39:23
pjasper
Right.
00:39:25
shootbootyrok
They just go, well, I saw Bob Vila do it in 20 minutes. So that's how long it should take. It's not also it's not only television, I mean, social media itself is just deceiving.
00:39:33
pjasper
Yeah.
00:39:35
shootbootyrok
And I think that's why people enjoy the videos where people own up to the mistakes that have been done and say, this is why it's taken me so long, etc.
00:39:41
pjasper
Yeah.
00:39:44
shootbootyrok
Okay, but all right, I'm gonna, you're 100% right. But I'm going to push back against this idea again, outside of the woodworking oeuvre. and And let's say this is like john let's some more things let's let's just for example, you're reading a book, you're reading Harry Potter.
00:39:58
pjasper
hit
00:40:03
shootbootyrok
Harry Potter is takes place over the course of a school year, 10 months, 10 and a half months. Sure. The longest book was 700 pages. How many of those pages were Harry woke up and brushed his teeth and then he combed his hair in the mirror and then he groggily walked down to the room and got some tea and crumpets and then he sat and talked like that's not nobody gives a shit because that's not what the interesting thing is. I would read it. I know you wouldn't stop. yeah You can go to Reddit fanfic and start reading Harry Potter fanfic.
00:40:35
pjasper
Alright, so so some of the yeah sore and this is way to get us back on track from Harry harry Potter scratching his balls in the morning and brushing his teeth.
00:40:35
shootbootyrok
um Tell me you would read it.
00:40:41
shootbootyrok
It's a DIY culture.
00:40:47
shootbootyrok
showeron Shower Shower. Oh my god.
00:40:51
pjasper
To get us back, we this is where we were. We said the three of us do believe DIY is a good thing, but there are some negatives that we had to dispel, which is some of the recent negatives are ah it's not it's not shown in a way that's realistic on social media or TV. And Eric, I get your point. No one wants to watch a full tile and job, tile by tile. ah I think there's this feeling of low quality materials and low quality builds.
00:41:15
shootbootyrok
Mm.
00:41:17
pjasper
And I think, you know, there is a money issue. Not everyone has the money for higher quality, but also they don't know where to get that higher quality material. Because if you ask people, hey, would you like higher quality wood? A lot of people would say yes, but they don't know where to get it because it gets into that specialty realm. of like available to only the, you know, the pros or people who are really in the field, like where that's why we did an episode on where do you get your wood? Because now we've been in it it long enough to have those specialty relationships and ways to get the higher quality material.
00:41:50
pjasper
So that's another one. We talk about low quality tools being involved.
00:41:54
shootbootyrok
Yeah, that's a big one.
00:41:54
pjasper
So why do you think there's low quality tools?
00:41:58
shootbootyrok
Because if you don't know what you're doing, you don't want to spend $400 on a hand plane. yeah You don't want to spend $250 on a DeWalt, you know, drill like this. And that's reasonable. Like if you are going to use it, here's, here's what I'll say.
00:42:11
pjasper
Yeah, that's reasonable. Yeah.
00:42:13
shootbootyrok
Is ROYOBI good? No. If you are going to use ROYOBI tools once every other month for the next five years, that is perfectly reasonable for what they are able to withstand.
00:42:25
pjasper
Yeah.
00:42:25
shootbootyrok
Also, you get locked into the brand because you buy one, you've got the battery pack.
00:42:26
pjasper
Yep.
00:42:29
shootbootyrok
That's just how all right. That's how that's how it works. Of course, that's the most popular. It's the barrier. It's like the entry. I wonder how long it's going to be before power tools have a subscription-based model.
00:42:35
pjasper
Yeah.
00:42:38
shootbootyrok
Oh my god, don't. I can't.
00:42:39
pjasper
oh I bet it's already.
00:42:41
shootbootyrok
It'll happen eventually. Yeah. I mean, cars do.
00:42:43
pjasper
All right. So um Mary.
00:42:44
shootbootyrok
Sorry? Yeah, cars, there are specific features that are locked behind subscription models. I hate everything. Yeah, sorry. Go on.
00:42:53
pjasper
Okay. So low quality builds, low quality too.
00:42:54
shootbootyrok
It's not my fault.
00:42:57
pjasper
Sorry, sorry, sorry, Mary.
00:42:58
shootbootyrok
Sorry, Mary.
00:43:00
pjasper
Okay, so a lot of it has to do with the low quality and unrealistic expectations. And I think there's a low level of rigor associated with the whole thing in general, because if you're using low quality tools, and low quality building materials, and you don't really know what you're doing, there's a low, like, disposable, like longevity is a problem. But you know what, I'm okay with that, because it's okay to make a piece of shit. to realize to use it for a while, realize it's a piece of shit, and then the next version you upgrade. You don't have to go from A to like S or T every time. You can go A to B, B to C. Because if you expect the first time you do anything, let's say you're a DIYer and it's the first time you're making whatever, an end table, and you really expect it to be
00:43:51
pjasper
to go from I don't know what working to this is going to be a high quality piece of furniture masterfully done that is such a huge jump and it will inhibit you you want to learn I have to learn this I have to look this up and you won't have an end table for about six months but what if you just make a piece of shit and it just like you know it lasts a couple years and then it starts to bug at you and then you say okay I'm ready to make a better version.
00:44:17
shootbootyrok
So I would have two questions to that. the The first is if we're talking about the spiritual resolve of somebody to make a piece of furniture better every time. like I think it's a fair argument that my generation, Mary's and I generation grew up with um participation trophies. We were congratulated for just showing up and not doing fucking anything. so it I think it is it can be a real issue if you've been told your entire life that
00:44:50
shootbootyrok
like nothing is that hard and if you just want to do it, it's good enough to actually like take that gut check and be humble to the point where you go like, Oh, um I suck at this, but I want to learn it and you can do it.
00:45:02
pjasper
Mmm.
00:45:04
shootbootyrok
But I think that's a difficult thing. Um, from an economic perspective, if you're talking about like getting better tools over time, I think the sunk cost fallacy comes into play there. Like if you buy a Royal be tool and you spend $150 on four tools now, not only is your mindset of like, well, that's what tools cost. And then you go to buy a drill from DeWalt and it costs $170 and you're offended by it, but also. Then you've just lost $150 you put into those other tools because now you realize they're pieces of shit.
00:45:34
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah, but you can sell them now.
00:45:39
shootbootyrok
Yeah, that's fair.
00:45:40
pjasper
I'm a fan of the iterative thing because if you put too much pressure to to make to make a thing that is as a DIYer, if you put so much pressure to make a thing that is exquisite right from the very beginning, you're either not going to make it or you're going to buy the tools and stall out or you're going to crash halfway.
00:45:43
shootbootyrok
I am too. Yeah.
00:45:56
pjasper
Very few people can pull it off to go from I don't know anything to an exquisite piece of furniture in one step. I'm all about iteration.
00:46:02
shootbootyrok
I don't think.
00:46:03
pjasper
like Make a thing, get it done. it might It might be missing a few things you wanted, but at least you made it. And now you have an end table. I know people who, they actually ah a friend of mine, the dad was so hung up on doing everything perfectly that they lived without flooring.
Role of DIY Influencers and Trends
00:46:24
pjasper
They they walked around on plywood.
00:46:25
shootbootyrok
What? Oh, no.
00:46:27
pjasper
they he wanted to do He wanted to do the hardwood flooring perfectly. and he could never bring himself to actually get it done because the barrier was so high in his head. So the family walked around on plywood for the last 35 years, and it's never gonna be done.
00:46:42
shootbootyrok
That's terrible.
00:46:45
pjasper
He couldn't pull it off.
00:46:45
shootbootyrok
Woof.
00:46:48
shootbootyrok
At what point do you cut it off though? Like...
00:46:50
pjasper
Well, the the wife might say, enough of this, I want, and and he's like, I'll get it done.
00:46:53
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:46:55
pjasper
I just have to do a little more research. Or, yeah, I'm not exactly sure how it played out, but that it just, that's the,
00:46:59
shootbootyrok
That sounds like relationship therapy. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
00:47:02
pjasper
Well, all I'm saying is perfectionism and expecting perfectionism and expecting too much can have a nasty side.
00:47:05
shootbootyrok
Sounds like her fault as much as his. That's true. Yeah.
00:47:10
shootbootyrok
Well, that's that's fair.
00:47:10
pjasper
All right.
00:47:11
shootbootyrok
And I don't think that anybody starts off like nobody goes from zero to 100. Nobody does. There are people who have the natural aptitude for these things and take on those higher skill sets really early on. But even those people make bullshit at the beginning, because they don't know how to do a thing. And yes, I think to your point, I'm just playing devil's advocate. But to your point,
00:47:33
pjasper
Yeah.
00:47:34
shootbootyrok
people need to cut themselves some grace and allow themselves to be bad at a thing for a time to learn how it's done. So can I ask a question, though? Like, what is the how do you feel about the two different parties of there's people who are trying to learn and they learn from YouTube, DIY, etc.
00:47:44
pjasper
Hmm.
00:47:50
shootbootyrok
And then there's the people who are leaders of the DIY industry, who are trying to teach the others, do you think they have more of a responsibility ability of I don't even know what kind of responsibility, but like are they pushing certain trends? Are they the ones who are you know trying to switch up the different interior design styles every single year and trying to push that? like is there Do they have like any kind of responsibility, do you think, as the people that everyone looks up to?
00:48:15
pjasper
Yeah. I think they should have a feeling of responsibility, but I think they follow the dollar, to be honest. I think they push whatever trend is getting them eyeballs.
00:48:23
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:48:28
shootbootyrok
yeah
00:48:31
shootbootyrok
That's an excellent question. um And it's a hard question to answer. It doesn't have to be an answer.
00:48:37
pjasper
it's not It's not a hard question to answer if if you don't, ah if you're if you're not worried about getting canceled in certain circles.
00:48:37
shootbootyrok
Well.
00:48:41
shootbootyrok
ah Well, well.
00:48:44
shootbootyrok
No, i'm not i'm not I'm not worried about getting canceled. and the The people I'm thinking of specifically know that I love them. and it like but the I think it's unfair to question whether people are attempting to be thought leaders in a field or if they are attempting to run a business.
00:49:02
pjasper
Hmm.
00:49:03
shootbootyrok
Cause those are two different things.
00:49:03
pjasper
Yeah. Fair. Yeah.
00:49:05
shootbootyrok
And if you're attempting to run a business, your aim is to keep the business healthy, make money, and that's that like full stop.
00:49:05
pjasper
Fair.
00:49:09
pjasper
Right. Yep.
00:49:13
shootbootyrok
So those, there are people in the DIY field who tear out rooms in order to redo them every couple of years because they need another room to remodel. Um, but is that better or worse than people like pouring river tables or is that better or worse than
00:49:32
pjasper
or or or people who buy a house and rip out the kitchen every time they buy a new house.
00:49:33
shootbootyrok
Or people who are, yeah, yeah. Or, or if we again, we want to go outside woodworking, like people producing styrofoam cups. Like, is that better or worse than somebody who's renovating a room once every three years?
00:49:48
pjasper
Yeah.
00:49:48
shootbootyrok
Like, I don't know.
00:49:50
pjasper
Yeah, yeah, all right.
00:49:50
shootbootyrok
You know?
00:49:52
pjasper
All right, so I think we've we've covered, I think most of the question of is DIY just marketing
Debunking Woodworking Myths
00:49:58
pjasper
bullshit? I think there's, It's overwhelmingly good as I think our so summary, but we have seen some troubling trends in the last few years that maybe weren't always part of um DIY. Maybe they were, I don't know. But um I think we talked about both sides. So now we're going to pivot to our next segment, which is Eric, would you like to introduce our next segment?
00:50:21
shootbootyrok
I got you buddy boy. woodwork Woodworking to myth bust. Here we go. So I'm going to give you guys a fact that is a truism in the woodworking world and you can debate whether or not this is a myth or a fact. Number one, putting your plane down on its side is best practice.
00:50:48
shootbootyrok
Who goes first? Go. Whoever whoever has a more visceral reaction.
00:50:51
pjasper
We know the answer to this.
00:50:53
shootbootyrok
Yeah. It's absolutely a myth.
00:50:54
pjasper
ah Yeah, ah putting it down on wood, it's supposed to be touching wood and putting it down on wood protects it from getting dinged or banged by like tools flinging about the the work surface and Conrad Sauer, our first guest who makes plans for a living, he unequivocally educated, edumacated us that, that, that is total bullshit leaving it on its side.
00:51:18
shootbootyrok
Yeah, he came in hot about that, huh?
00:51:23
pjasper
In fact, it, it leaves it vulnerable to damage to the blade.
00:51:28
shootbootyrok
I'm sorry, I only have that concrete and steel workbench. Oh my god. I'm an industrial designer. um I do have to say there is nothing, and this goes for anybody who who is listening to this podcast, who may or may not take a class from me or meet me somewhere. There is nothing that irritates me more than somebody walking up to my bench, grabbing my plane, and turning it 90 degrees on its side. I don't care how pleasant the conversation has been up to that point.
00:52:00
shootbootyrok
You sir, and I say sir, because it's always a white dude over the age of 70 can get fully fucked. Don't touch my tools. Thank you.
00:52:08
pjasper
Don't oeuvre my tools.
00:52:09
shootbootyrok
Don't Uber my tools. How often do you get those comments on your videos? Not so much on the comments, every now and again, but it's like the most it happens, especially at the Lean Nielsen events when I used to do those. People would just walk up and feel very comfortable grabbing my tools and rotating them 90 degrees and giving me that knowing look of like, I did, ah I did you a favor. And I'm like, ah, you're an idiot. Get out of my face. Um, number two, only hardwood is suitable for quality furniture.
00:52:35
pjasper
Mmm.
00:52:38
shootbootyrok
Oh, Paul's got feelings.
00:52:41
pjasper
I don't, I do usually use hard woods, but I'm not against soft woods. I will use them sometimes. And in in secondary, definitely for drawer sides and bottoms that don't get a lot of action, I use them, meaning action, meaning like, you know, dinged and hit and touched and stuff.
00:53:04
shootbootyrok
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
00:53:05
pjasper
So yeah, I mean, softwoods have historically been the wood for things that need to be easily made, like cut dovetails.
00:53:09
shootbootyrok
Mm hmm.
00:53:15
pjasper
You know, when you cut hand cut dovetails, it goes together so much easier with softwoods and hardwoods. Right? And chair bottoms for like, when you scoop chair bottoms for Windsor chairs, you're not going to scoop hard maple.
00:53:23
shootbootyrok
Mm hmm.
00:53:27
pjasper
You're just not going to.
00:53:28
shootbootyrok
Nope.
00:53:29
pjasper
It's going to be poplar. It's going to be pine. It's going to be something like that. So, you know, they have their place is my answer.
00:53:37
shootbootyrok
Yeah, I would say the same thing. I mostly stick with hardwoods, but I would never say that only hardwood is suitable for quality furniture. That's kind of the word that I would point out, the only.
00:53:49
pjasper
Hmm.
00:53:49
shootbootyrok
So both definitely have their place. I agree. ah ah Paul was right in that historically softwoods have been used more often than hardwoods because they're just easier to work with hand tools.
00:54:00
pjasper
Yeah.
00:54:02
shootbootyrok
They are also like pine is such a delight to work. yeah It smells good. It works beautifully. There's two main reasons to my knowledge why pine is not ah used as much in furniture anymore. Number one is it's soft. So it dings easily, which is fair, but poplar dings easily as well. The reason that pine is not used as much as poplar is because pine has pitch in pitch will coat your machines.
00:54:26
pjasper
It does, it does.
00:54:27
shootbootyrok
And that's fair. That's a real, real concern, but a hand plane pine finish is about as good as it gets in the woodworking world.
00:54:36
pjasper
It is.
00:54:37
shootbootyrok
It's a delight, man.
00:54:37
pjasper
It is. But Eric, there's also the issue of softwoods not looking as good, often.
00:54:43
shootbootyrok
Over time, over time, a freshly plain pine service looks delightful in my opinion.
00:54:47
pjasper
No, no, no. I didn't i didn't mean about the the touch of the surface. I mean the color, the character. I don't find myself drawn to using poplar and pine as a design aesthetic.
00:54:52
shootbootyrok
Okay. Fair.
00:54:57
pjasper
I don't.
00:54:57
shootbootyrok
That's fair. People use Poplar is ugly.
00:54:58
pjasper
Could compare.
00:55:00
shootbootyrok
Yeah. People tend to use Poplar. Usually if you're going to be painting over it, right? Yeah. Or, or, you know, internal components.
00:55:03
pjasper
Unfortunately, i
00:55:05
shootbootyrok
Yeah.
00:55:05
pjasper
And I almost would take it as a design challenge to make Poplar look beautiful as a design challenge. But you know when I have all these beautiful walnuts and you know curly maples and all these, it's hard to want to use a softwood.
00:55:14
shootbootyrok
Yeah. Yeah. It is. And it is so pine goes brown really quick. Poplar goes brown really quick. The the benefit to softwoods, generally speaking. Now, if anybody doesn't know, hardwoods, generally speaking, are deciduous trees. Softwoods, generally speaking, are conifers. roughly. ah Similarly, hardwoods or or deciduous trees are typically denser and heavier, and softwoods are typically lighter. so if you are making and This is an important differentiation. If you are making furniture that is to be moved and traveled with,
00:55:51
shootbootyrok
Pine becomes a really valuable resource. So if you're making, say, trunks that you need to haul onto a ship because it's 1854 and you need to travel to America, guess what? You're not making that trunk out of maple. It's not going to happen. You're not making it out of oak. If you're making a tool chest, guess what? My traveling tool chest is made out of pine because it weighs half as much as it would if I had made it out of oak. So it has its place.
00:56:14
pjasper
Great point.
00:56:15
shootbootyrok
But if you're dealing with fine furniture, then people get skittish about it being dented.
00:56:20
pjasper
All right, so you know my house has finished an entirely long leaf pine. And so I made our butcher block countertops out of pine.
00:56:28
pjasper
And people would be like, are you stupid? It's going to get it's gonna get dented, dinged, crushed, ah burnt, and you know what? I knew it and I said, yes, yes, I know that and I don't care because those dings and that surface is telling the story of my family in the kitchen for the next one hundred years. And you know what? i The shittier it looks, the more I love it. And I knew that from the beginning and I made that decision. And I think, yeah, to each their own.
00:56:29
shootbootyrok
Mmm.
00:56:57
shootbootyrok
And I love that decision. And to a point about, you know, general rules, longleaf pine is more dense than Eastern white pine, but it's not as dense as Southern yellow pine. So there are variables within, you know, domestic softwoods as well, but also just back to DIY culture, when you, you know, eventually sell that house, somebody's going to rip it out and put in like. foam marble countertops. and Sorry, can I ask real quick what you were saying about the trunk? Is it because like because of the density and the weight of the head?
00:57:24
pjasper
The weight, yeah.
00:57:24
shootbootyrok
Yes. heart Yes. So so the lower the density, the less the weight. And so if you're moving a bunch of things in a trunk and it needs to be light so that two people can pick it up. I did hear that the Titanic sunk because of all the oak wood. That is that is exactly what happened, actually. Now that I think about it. Number three, modern glues are better than hide glue.
00:57:44
pjasper
No.
00:57:45
pjasper
ah
00:57:45
shootbootyrok
Paul can speak to this.
00:57:48
shootbootyrok
I do not have experience with this. I've only used modern glues.
00:57:50
pjasper
oh
00:57:51
shootbootyrok
Paul just had a moment. Paul is having a conniption. Is that what that was?
00:57:55
pjasper
it makes it It makes me so angry.
00:57:56
shootbootyrok
I couldn't tell if it was good or bad. He's turned into Smeagol.
00:58:05
shootbootyrok
yeah
00:58:06
pjasper
ah Oh, I can speak.
00:58:07
shootbootyrok
I can't speak to this one, but Paul can.
00:58:10
pjasper
All right. First of all, fuck everyone. All right. That's like, I want to lead off with that. All right. So, all right.
00:58:17
shootbootyrok
That's a hard stance to come to
00:58:17
pjasper
So here, here, here's the problem for centuries. We've had hide glue centuries. every piece of furniture in a museum that you ooh and aah over. Ooh, so beautiful. Look at that block front chest from Newport. Ooh, so beautiful. It's all hide glue, motherfuckers. It's not modern PVA glues. I'm sorry. You have been brainwashed by marketing and companies to buy modern glues as if they're better. And actually, if you talk to anyone who does furniture restoration, they hate yellow glues.
00:58:55
pjasper
Because every time the glue joint breaks, you have to clean the glue off the surface. How do you do that? Not with water. You've got to scrape it off. You've got to chisel it off. You have to scrape it off. And guess what that does to your beautiful mortise andteon joints and It makes them loose. Because you can't just take off the glue and not some of the wood. So then you scrape the shit out of all these pieces and probably damage them in the process. And now all your joints fit loose, which means you don't have good contact, which means the re gluing of it is not going to go that well. And it's not going to hold up nearly as long. Had you used hide glue, you could have just steamed that, or the joint would have come apart, right? You could just wipe it down with water, re hide glue it. You're good for another century.
00:59:44
pjasper
fact not opinion not only that but hide glue is non-toxic it's like a renewable resource we have tons of cows we have tons of cow hide
00:59:55
shootbootyrok
Got so many horses. Paul hates horses is what I'm taking away from this.
01:00:01
pjasper
Okay, now why and it's it's renewable, repairable, it sticks to itself. It's got every, you know, so for those of you who haven't tried hot hide glue, you should. And there's a version of it called old brown glue where they modify your with urea. So you don't even have to heat it up in a boiler, you can just put it in a glass of hot water, it solubilizes, you use it, you clamp it, you're good, and you keep it in the fridge. So you should try hide glue. Now, what is the replace for modern glues? Yes, of Of course there's a place for modern glues.
01:00:33
pjasper
High glue, you have to let it sit overnight at least 12 hours before it's tacked enough to do anything.
01:00:36
shootbootyrok
Mmhmm.
01:00:39
pjasper
You don't always have 12 hours. Maybe you want to do something and just have it clamped for an hour and move on. Something that isn't going to, you know, come apart like a chair, you know, something that's just, it doesn't really matter. Or maybe it's not made to last centuries. Maybe it's just a utilitarian item. Of course there's a place for yellow glues. especially in outdoor, there's like waterproof glues, hide glues, not waterproof. So there there's a time and a place for like things like quick and thick that's set real quick. You know, when you just want it done, there's CA glue, which is an amazing product. I use it every day in the shop. The PVA glues, the urea glues, the formaldehyde glues, the gorilla glues, which I do use for veneers sometimes, there is a place and ah and ah for all of them. But for almost everything I do, that is family heirloom style, I use hide glue.
01:01:25
shootbootyrok
Mary.
01:01:25
pjasper
And why you don't hear more about it is because of marketing. No one's getting rich off hide glue.
01:01:32
shootbootyrok
Yeah, Paul took everything I was going to say, so. No, you're not even going to defend horses out here. OK. I agree with Paul on the whole that hide glue is wonderful. It's a useful resource. I would i would alter the sentence, not say modern glues are better than hide glue. I would say modern glues are different than hide glue. They fill different niches.
01:01:53
pjasper
They do.
01:01:54
shootbootyrok
If everybody used hide glue exclusively, there would be no more horses and cows because there are too many people making too many things. Um, but, but I'm not, listen, I'm all for high glow and I'm all for eating beef.
01:02:04
pjasper
that's what do you don wait wait wait wait wait wait wait bitch what do you know about the the supply of cows and hide glue in the United
01:02:06
shootbootyrok
Like yeah I'm not trying to make a vegan argument out here. is it
01:02:13
shootbootyrok
I'm making a provocative statement because this is social media. ah I do think, however, high glue in the long term for furniture is more repairable, a better alternative if you can utilize it. But sometimes it doesn't make sense to utilize it. So I'm with you there. Number four, end grain glue ups are weak.
01:02:34
pjasper
Hmm. Mary, why don't you start?
01:02:40
shootbootyrok
I'm on the... I'm on the edge for this one. I would say that end-rank glue ups can be weaker than edge glue ups or face glue ups, but they're not week as like a whole.
01:02:57
pjasper
Hmm.
01:02:58
shootbootyrok
I think that they definitely have enough strength for what people are trying to do with you know making their furniture, whatever DIY they're trying to do. So next time you make a dining table, you're just going to forego joinery and glue up end grain aprons to long grain legs?
01:03:12
pjasper
Hahaha.
01:03:14
shootbootyrok
Yes, that's correct. Okay. All right, noted. noted um I assume we're not I'm not going to be held to anything I say here.
01:03:21
shootbootyrok
But I do think that there is a general, like, I, there's a general thought that like end grain glue ups should just never be done. And I think that they're stronger than most people think, especially, you know, if you flood the end grain first, if you make sure that you do everything properly and consider, you know, what it's going to be like further down the dumb line. So, I don't know, I don't really go on a specific side for this one.
01:03:47
pjasper
All right, i would use I would use the end grain glue joints sparingly.
01:03:47
shootbootyrok
Paul.
01:03:52
pjasper
If it is non-weight bearing, I might use it. if it's just like a decorative thing in a little box, right, something, but if it's weight-bearing, oh no, oh no, that'll break. But however, this comes to our previous conversation of glues, which several of my friends, and they swear by it that the quick and thick, the real thick PVA modified glues of recent years can glue and grain with a staggering strength that you're not used to seeing.
01:04:06
shootbootyrok
Mm.
01:04:20
shootbootyrok
So what I was designed to do. Yeah.
01:04:23
pjasper
I haven't tested it myself, but I believe them when they say it. So I think there is a place for, you know, you can do it maybe with some of the modern glues, but I mean, I wouldn't, but.
01:04:33
shootbootyrok
I would say, uh, on the whole, I heard an interesting argument that I agree with that the question is not necessarily about the strength of end grain glue ups, but rather the orientation more.
01:04:45
pjasper
Hmm.
01:04:46
shootbootyrok
So typically when you're gluing two boards, you know, face grain to face grain, like it's going to be really hard. You don't have leverage to break those things apart. When you are gluing end grain to long grain, you've got an L shape.
01:04:57
pjasper
Oh, fair, fair, fair.
01:04:58
shootbootyrok
And you have way more leverage. yeah So that's interesting. Now that being the case, you also have to consider the the capillary action that happens when you're gluing and grain. So sizing those pores, sealing them off.
01:05:07
pjasper
Right.
01:05:09
shootbootyrok
That's fair. And using something like quick and thick. If I'm gluing and grain, I'm using quick and thick, like it is a really good material.
01:05:13
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:15
shootbootyrok
And, uh, just to to give a example. One time early, early on in my career, I want to say it was like just after college, maybe like 2010, I was making frames and panels for the Poughkeepsie train station. And, uh, I didn't know about joinery as a concept yet. So I made three of these, like, ah they were like eight feet by maybe three feet, uh, oh, frames and panels. And I just glued all of the end grain together. Had no idea what I was doing. wow And.
01:05:45
shootbootyrok
They broke, they broke twice and I just kept gluing them together until they didn't break again. what did it and I just kept doing it. And I still go back every now and again, I go back in that train station just to like, see if they've broken and it's been whatever 15 years, they're still there. They're still fine.
01:06:03
pjasper
Well, Eric, question. You know how we do mitered boxes constantly, you and I?
01:06:07
shootbootyrok
Yeah. That's ingrained, ingrained baby.
01:06:08
pjasper
A miter joint is kind of like a half, it's kind of half end grain.
01:06:10
shootbootyrok
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Size those joints and glue them up.
01:06:14
pjasper
Yeah.
01:06:16
shootbootyrok
All right, number five. Woodworking is only for men. Mary, how do you feel about that?
01:06:24
pjasper
What?
01:06:24
shootbootyrok
oh
01:06:29
shootbootyrok
I'm going to edit the sound clip so that we're not talking about miss and it's just Eric saying. Why are you trying to get me canceled? Oh my God. I mean, I'm literally speechless.
01:06:43
pjasper
Do we, ah do we even have to dignify that? Come on, that's so fucking dumb. Eric, you were supposed to save that one for the after show so we could get real gnarly on the answer.
01:06:52
shootbootyrok
Oh my God.
01:06:55
shootbootyrok
It's a it's it's a hey it's a myth I also like how both of you guys were pretending when I said that like we hadn't discussed these fucking points before the show god Just waiting to throw me under the bus out here this I will say this is something that has been that like people legitimately think which is well This is why it's a myth that we need to talk about because it's clearly untrue Yeah, I mean, I clearly don't support this year. And would probably end our friendship with either if you did support it.
01:07:29
shootbootyrok
ah So yeah, this is absolutely insane.
01:07:31
pjasper
Eric, you have a way out.
01:07:33
shootbootyrok
ah
01:07:38
shootbootyrok
oh man that's go Yeah, woodworking is not only for men, friends.
01:07:39
pjasper
Okay, on that note...
01:07:44
shootbootyrok
Join us in the after show where we talk about more of these.
01:07:47
pjasper
Well, we're going to have five.
01:07:47
shootbootyrok
Yeah, how much more controversy?
01:07:49
pjasper
OK, so we're going to have five more of these in the after show. We're going to bust another five myths. Before we go, I'd like to thank our patrons this week. Uh, we have, uh, twisted Dillo. You read that right. Uh, twisted Dillo chase Southered and Ed Duncan. Thank you three for supporting us. We appreciate it as well.
01:08:11
shootbootyrok
Thanks, Fran. Thank you.
01:08:12
pjasper
As well as our other patrons. Uh, why should you become a patron? Because you want to see that juicy after show where we bust more myths on that note.
01:08:18
shootbootyrok
Yeah, you're...
01:08:22
pjasper
Bye everyone.
01:08:22
shootbootyrok
Bye!
01:08:22
pjasper
We hope you enjoyed today's discussion.
01:08:26
shootbootyrok
Make good decisions.
01:08:27
pjasper
Bye.