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Wisdom vs. Intellect? Understanding Biblical Wisdom
40 Plays1 year ago
What does it mean to seek wisdom? Is there a difference between wisdom and intellect? In this episode, Pastor Kimberly Williams unpacks the meaning of wisdom and what it looks like to actively seek it.
If you have questions or would like to submit a topic to discuss on the podcast, please contact me at unitednotuniform@gmail.com!
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Transcript
Introduction & Podcast Purpose
00:00:00
Speaker
You are listening to the United Not Uniform podcast, and I am your host, Crystal. The purpose of this podcast is to have intentional spaces that allow and celebrate difference, difference of opinion, experience, and more. In this podcast, we will truly be able to hear and see one another, even when we disagree.
00:00:23
Speaker
What would it look like if we were truly able to see one another, to set aside fear, insecurity, and doubt, to be willing to embrace the silence and let words carry their full weight? If that sounds fun, or at least a tiny bit interesting, you are in the right place. Together, we will grow as we discuss different topics, hear other stories, and have a few laughs along the way. Welcome to United Not Uniform,
00:00:52
Speaker
where there was more than enough space to be seen and to see others. Well, I am so
Introducing Pastor Kimberly Williams
00:00:59
Speaker
excited about this episode. We have the amazing Pastor Kimberly Williams with us today. So Pastor Kimberly, I got connected to her. She used to lead worship at my church and just the way in which
00:01:22
Speaker
Oh, just the way in which she would just lead us in worshiping God and just how she would care for her team and how, I mean, now like she mentors me as I started seminary. It's just, she's just a woman after God's own heart, just full of wisdom. Um, that's also very real. And so I'm like perfect. She would be wonderful to have on the podcast to share some of her lessons that she's been learning, some of the things that she's been praying on.
00:01:48
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the
Pastor Kimberly's Roles & Background
00:01:49
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realness of what does it mean to follow God, especially while you're pursuing wisdom and in situations that maybe don't always feel comfortable. And so I'm just so excited that she's here with us today. And Pastor Kimberly, do you just mind telling us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, I am a
00:02:12
Speaker
creative. I'm a worship leader. I'm a pastor. I'm a mom of two, almost three. I'm expecting my third son very shortly. I'm a very blessed wife to an amazing man. His name is Cameron Williams. Yeah,
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, I lucked out on that one. The Lord just did his thing. We are paired well. So yeah, family of four, almost family of five. I am a pastor's kid, ministry kid. So I grew up in the church and I'm a musician. clarinet is my trade, but I also sing and play guitar and
00:02:54
Speaker
a few other instruments and I just love to use life experience and both the good and the bad, the trauma and the treasure. It's
Church Leadership & The Pursuit of Wisdom
00:03:05
Speaker
my gifts to kind of cultivate just encounters with God that hopefully are transformative for everybody involved. I'm one of those people who's like, you can't lead people a place you've never been. So I just try to use everything
00:03:23
Speaker
that I have every experience and everything I've learned and all the theology in my tool belt to just encounter God and so that he can transform me and those around me. So yeah, that's, I guess that's me. Oh my goodness. I'm so excited and I feel like everybody who's listening is going to be so excited too because I think it's so refreshing
00:03:50
Speaker
in all of the places that God has brought you from and generations of people in your life who have loved God and have poured into you and now you lead others in such an intentional and beautiful way. It's just such a gift to be, again, I'm speaking from a place of experience and the way that she has mentored me and like, re-centered me, but being willing to be vulnerable and tie in real experiences, because it's a thing it's like, I feel like oftentimes,
00:04:16
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you know, when I became licensed as a minister, I really struggled with, okay, now I have this like new position of authority where I am pouring into people, where I am doing these things. But it all comes from what God has done within me. And so I love what you said about, you can't take people places where you haven't been. I just think that that's just so valuable. And like, there's so much,
00:04:43
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There's so much healing and God uses all of our testimony when we're willing and formidable to be able to share it.
00:04:50
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Yeah, it's terrifying when you get licensed or even just appointed as a lead in church. And I think it should scare you. I think if it doesn't scare you, then that could be problematic. Oh, okay. I feel a lot better. Well, let's go ahead and dive right on in. So let's start off with, so Pastor Kimberly, how would you define wisdom?
00:05:16
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So this is a tricky one because how can I describe it in one sentence when like the book of Proverbs, like, you know, describe it in a whole book. But I would say this is, I guess my artsy interpretation would be wisdom is
00:05:37
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the knowing of or the humility that you have to even dare to peer into the mind of God and take what you see at its word. So
Defining Wisdom & Its Role in Life
00:05:51
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I think wisdom is this
00:05:53
Speaker
thing that we pursue, it's really just pursuing the mind of Christ, pursuing the knowledge of Christ, pursuing the ways of God, and then not only pursuing to know those things, but to then believe them and allow them to shape your life. The key passages for me just around wisdom are Proverbs 4, 7, the one that's like,
00:06:16
Speaker
Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom and with all you're getting, get understanding. And to me, that's the part where it's like, don't only pursue it, but once you see it, try to gain actual understanding. And those are two different things. You can know truth and not understand it.
00:06:35
Speaker
and you can know truth and then understand it and then interpret it and then live it. And I think that that's really what God wants us to do. And it's just, yeah, wisdom is something that literally has to be, I don't know, you just have to sit in it. You have to pursue it daily constantly. It has to be
00:06:55
Speaker
it has to be your best friend and it has to accompany you through every situation, whether it be good or bad. And then I guess the other one that is like always leans me to the like humility side of wisdom or like
00:07:10
Speaker
it's really hard to attain wisdom or at least godly wisdom without humility even man-made wisdom without humility you have to be a student of it is that proverbs 9 10 and 11 that's like the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom and the knowledge of the holy one is understanding and so like where it's like fearing god is the beginning so i'm like oh knowing that his ways are higher his thoughts are higher his mind is
00:07:39
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at a place my mind can never even be is just the beginning of even understanding wisdom. And I think that verse goes on to say, like, four-year days will be multiplied. Oh, yeah, and your years of life will be added to you. And I'm like, yeah, I want that. I want multiple days. And I want multiple years on this side of heaven. But that that's impossible without the wisdom of God.
00:08:08
Speaker
So yeah, wisdom is this beautiful, weighty treasure, I feel like, that we just have to seek and pursue. And I think when we do that, it just helps us live better. It helps us make better decisions. It helps us respond in obedience to God better. All the things
00:08:29
Speaker
Ah, I love that. Now for someone who is listening to us and maybe isn't as familiar, especially with the book of Proverbs, but also more so specifically the use of fear of the Lord, do you mind explaining that just a little bit more for people who might think like, oh, should I just be afraid of God? Do you mind just breaking down that phrase a little bit? Because I think that that's a key point. And I just wanted to make sure it wasn't lost.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah, so fear of the Lord is I would more so reference like reverence it or or say that it's more of the reverence of the Lord or the acknowledgement of the awesomeness of the Lord or the grandeur of the Lord. It really boils down to humility and understanding that God is bigger and and not trembling in like terror of that.
00:09:24
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but responding in awe of that.
00:09:28
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And I think that that is more so what the fear of the Lord is. And yeah, I think the hard part is in general, like I think our human response to something awesome or grand or bigger than us is usually fear where it's like, well, maybe I don't want to know that thing or maybe I don't want to do that thing. But for us, it's this awesome
00:09:56
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invitation more so than this oh that's too big for me to attain or that's too too grand for me to lean into and so yeah that would be the fear of war for me more of a reverence of the awesomeness or the grandeur of like a god who created everything and is everything and is in everything but then also wants to include you in it i love that i love it i love it
00:10:22
Speaker
So you talked already a little bit about this, but I would love for you to go a bit deeper. So what is the difference between wisdom and intellect?
Personal Stories & Seeking Wisdom in Family Decisions
00:10:34
Speaker
So yeah, wisdom I feel like is a never ending fountain.
00:10:41
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And intellect is what you have in your cup or even in your circle. And that's to me, honestly, that's the biggest difference. Intellect is things that we've learned, things that we've acquired within ourselves through school or through mentoring or through peer relationships or
00:11:07
Speaker
self help books or life experience. And those things are all great, but they're limited. Wisdom is this never ending fountain where
00:11:18
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The person who created the books and shaped the life experiences and gave you the skills has this pool of knowledge that we can have access to. And so, yeah, wisdom, it has no limits. And unfortunately, because of the nature of humanity, intellect does. What I love, though, is when
00:11:40
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intellect and wisdom can work together as opposed to against one another. And we can add what we've learned, what we've studied, what we've experienced to the wisdom and the words of God. And then I think at that point you become an unstoppable intellectual.
00:11:59
Speaker
It's almost like works in faith, working together, the things that I can tangibly see and then the things that the Lord has kind of just dropped into my mind or, um, the opportunities that I get. And so, yeah, wisdom and intellect working together is the best, but intellect is just limited. It's just, it's limited. It's a limit resource. And I love in your definition of wisdom, like, first of all, that is like a great, um,
00:12:28
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I love that wisdom and intellect working together, right? I am in seminary right now, and I'm doing a class that's talking about, it's called homiletics, but it's, you're putting together different sermons. And what I thought was so, it made me think, they came to mind when you were sharing your definition, Pastor Kim, because what I loved about it is you have the word of God, right?
00:12:55
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original author and original audience, like what was intended to be meant. You have the gift of the Holy Spirit that descends upon you, but at the same time,
00:13:06
Speaker
you also are using your own personality and the wiring that not how God knit you together to like come together to make a sermon that's meant to then reach people who God has placed under your care, right? And so it's like this idea of like, there are so many different things that are to be working together that when we only seek intellect, we miss out on so much. And so I just, I love what you said. That is just, it's so good.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I love that the giver of wisdom is generous. Yes. And I think also some of the reason why our intellect can be stunted is or restricted is because I think just the dynamic of power is sometimes comes into play.
00:13:57
Speaker
And like the Lord isn't threatened by us knowing and seeking and knocking and asking. And so just the generosity of the one who is wisdom, or even just his desire to pour out wisdom on his people, I think is just, it's like, it's just a beautiful thing, I think. Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, so good.
00:14:27
Speaker
So again, like I feel like where you're just flowing in to each question, I love it. So why is wisdom important for living a full life? You've touched a lot on how we not only receive wisdom, but there's a process of us actually learning how to live it out, right? But yeah, can you tell us more about living a life, that a full life
00:14:57
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by prioritizing seeking wisdom? Yeah, I think it's crazy to me, I think at this point in my life, it's crazy to me even the fact that we are formed by God, shaped by God, given bodies and minds and
00:15:22
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souls and all the elements dropped in our mother's womb, then birthed into this world. And then at some point we just decide we can just make our own plans, have our own thoughts, do our own things, navigate life without the one who did all of the pre-design. Oh, you got real there.
00:15:46
Speaker
This life is, I mean, some people are like, it's ghetto here, but like, it's just, it's tough. Like life is difficult. Sickness, disease, war, famine, also, you know, birthdays, harvest, joy and celebration, all of those things mixed together.
00:16:10
Speaker
the weed and the wheat growing together, good things and bad things, sorrows and joys, grief and celebration. It's just a lot of craziness over here. It just is. It's a lot of brokenness working together with some divine things. And so to navigate it without the wisdom of the one who created it is a delusion, like we said. It's delusional for me to think
00:16:39
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that I could do that in any type of full way, because we're saying living a full life without the one who designed it. And I think that that's just understanding that, that like the thought that thinking that you can navigate life without the one who gave it is delusion.
00:17:07
Speaker
And accepting that, but accepting that the one who created it knows that and gives wisdom freely. It's just like the ultimate cheat code, the ultimate saving grace. And I think it's a key to life, I think.
00:17:26
Speaker
especially living a full life. And then even being able to define what a full life is for you. That's going to be my follow-up. What's a full life? What does fullness look for you? And I've experienced in my own life, especially in this most recent season, I had gotten to a place where, and this is, so I will tell this story. I don't know if my husband hates it when I tell this story or loves it.
00:17:51
Speaker
but um so I'll just tell anyway but um and this has just appeared into the last I guess like three years of my life but um I had gotten to a point in my ministry life so I had you know uh
00:18:05
Speaker
music undergrad degree, and then I decided to, I felt called to go to seminary. Me and my husband met when we were young, but we dated for like five years, and then we got married. We just celebrated our 11-year anniversary. Yay! We got married when we were babies. No, we weren't babies. We were like 24. We can still say that's babies.
00:18:27
Speaker
Um, so anyway, I had come back from seminary. I'm working at a church. I love I'm singing. I'm leading. I'm traveling. I'm like, you know, and I was just like, I love this.
00:18:39
Speaker
Thank you, Lord, for this vision and wisdom. And I'm one who I'm like, I seek the Lord all the time. I'm starting to really cultivate his call and gifting in my life. I'm using it in context where I think I need to be. It's growing. And so I go to my husband and I say, hey, we've been married seven years at this point. And I'm loving life without kids.
00:19:01
Speaker
I'm just loving it. Me and you, we're on the same page. We both are in our careers and my husband's a lawyer. Like we're just, we're thriving in our God-given call, right? And I think what can be
00:19:15
Speaker
difficult, whether you're a believer or not, is to get into these grooves where it feels like life is verifying or affirming that you're doing the right thing. But anything apart from the wisdom of God is foolishness. And we can't get comfortable even in things that are blessings. And so anyway, I was like, I'm good. We need to have kids. Woo! Living it up, loving life.
00:19:42
Speaker
And we can just mentor. And that's good. That is wisdom for some people, right? But anything apart from you seeking the wisdom and will of God is delusion. So he comes to me and he's like, oh, no, I want to have kids. And I'm like, what?
00:19:57
Speaker
And the reason that's funny is because when we first got married before I, I would even say I was seeking the wisdom of God for that season. Cause then that's the other thing. Wisdom is just the principle thing. It's this foundational thing, but God is living and active. And so what he tells you in one season and another season, all of it's working together. So you can't just speak wisdom and then retreat and then take that one time with the Lord as the ticket for the rest of your life. It's something that needs to be pursued daily, really.
00:20:28
Speaker
definitely
Trusting God Beyond Understanding
00:20:29
Speaker
seasonally. So in a previous season of our marriage where I wasn't fully living into my worship pastor abilities and calling it anointing, I was like, let's have kids. And he was like, no, maybe we shouldn't have kids yet. So then this season he was like, oh, I totally want to have kids. So then I was like, oh, now we're disagreeing about it. So literally that was a conversation we had
00:20:55
Speaker
Um, at the end of December, it was the end of the year and Cameron was like, well, I'm going to seek the Lord about it. And I was just like, hold up. So for me, you know, as a married woman, when your husband's like, I want to seek the Lord, it's a little terrifying because you're like, what's going to happen? Because like, and it means probably the same thing for him as well. Like, whatever. If you, when you have a partner whose life you're connected to and they're like, I'm going to seek the Lord.
00:21:24
Speaker
It's like, yikes, something's about to happen. It could be in my favorite. It could not. We don't know. I mean, you already knew something had to happen. I was like, okay, all right. Okay. Seek the Lord. That's a good thing. Amen. But even that, where it's just like, okay, let's pause in our conversation.
00:21:40
Speaker
to seek a higher conversation, which is a conversation with the all-knowing creator of all things. And I think that that's another thing where it's just like, okay, we are, Cameron and I are going back and forth with our own intellect, with our own understanding, but we needed to pause and seek the understanding of the Lord. So he was like, I'm gonna go ask the Lord. And I was like, okay, well, go ahead.
00:22:05
Speaker
And he was like, I'm going to fast. So the beginning of the year. This man was not playing at all. Yes, and it's funny because he also does not enjoy fasting. I've never seen, I've known him since we were 20. He's maybe fasted three times. I mean, I shouldn't say that. Oh, you just really know.
00:22:23
Speaker
But it's not a spiritual discipline that he enjoys. So I knew, I was like, oh, he's actually like, let me quiet my mind. And fasting is a spiritual discipline for Christians who just, it's a way to set apart our pleasures, our desires, so that we can really silence the voice of ourselves and more clearly hear the voice of God. And so,
00:22:49
Speaker
I'm just even saying like, I'm going to set apart this time to really hone in on what I think I hear God saying, right? So he does this fact 21 days, simple fruits and vegetables, Daniel fast. I mean, I was like, was he even praying hard? I don't even, I don't know. I just seem like a regular, a regular fast. But I think in that sense where it's just like,
00:23:15
Speaker
his heart and mind were like, let me really try to see if I can hear from heaven. And let me dare to see if I can hear from heaven, you know? So 21 days, by the end of the month, I was pregnant. And I was pregnant with our first son. His name is Caleb. And he is now three years old. He's the joy of my life. But I say that, well, I mean, the Lord is the joy of my life.
00:23:46
Speaker
I also love my husband, but I mean, man, the blessing I would have missed out on, the fullness of life, back to what we were talking about, the idea of living a full life. I, in my own intellect and wisdom, didn't know that fullness of life for me included family.
00:24:06
Speaker
But I thought I had it all. And we were leaning into having it all. I had a partner, which I really wanted. I had a ministry passion that I was able to live in and serve in. I felt like that was the best it ever could have gotten in my own intellect and wisdom. But when he sought the Lord, and then we sought the Lord together, and then I guess it was too late, the Lord was like, up, send. Sending baby.
00:24:35
Speaker
You know, it was just, yes, like now, now I'm having like a third kid, but like I, you know, and a third son, but like the idea of God's ways are higher than my ways. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. Even his understanding of what I would enjoy are
00:24:55
Speaker
deeper and grander than I could ever imagine. And so now living on this side of life, I realize that a full life for me is family and career, family and ministry, family and creativity.
00:25:12
Speaker
mothering and just hanging out with my girls. It's all of it together. And if I would have not sought the Lord, I would have even prevented myself from experiencing the fullness of life that God really did mean for us. And so I think that that's a hard thing too, because we are so short-sighted and God is just not. He's also our creator, which means
00:25:39
Speaker
He has peered into our hearts every corner of it, things that we haven't even explored or known, things that we're not even in touch with within ourselves, God sees and knows. And so he's the only one who's really even able to define what full living is and then to create that for us. And he's the only one who can really test desires, like things we think we want,
00:26:06
Speaker
He's the only one who can really test them to see it. Is that really what you want? Is that really what you desire? Is that really what's in your heart? And our minds and our emotions are so wavering that the wisdom of God is the only thing that can actually test and approve those things. And I also, I love what you were saying earlier too about I see the wisdom of God
00:26:32
Speaker
I guess, yeah, in a lot of ways threefold or maybe twofold. The wisdom of God is definitely the word of God. Like that's where it starts. The words and word of God that we see in scripture. And then of course the God, the Holy Spirit that illuminates that word. That's the wisdom of God. And then also the living word. We see the wisdom of God fully in Christ, like everything that he did, everything that he desired and all of those things working together.
00:27:00
Speaker
And for me, when I'm praying, the wisdom of God being the Spirit of God, and also sometimes thoughts that when tested by the written word of God stand true.
00:27:18
Speaker
Yeah, even the idea or the desire to have kids or not, all of it. Both of them are represented in the word of God. Whether being single or being married, being with kids or being without, all of it is verified and tested in the word of God. But just God also speaking, God is still tangibly speaking to his people. And I feel like that's just so important when it comes to attaining wisdom.
00:27:48
Speaker
And knowing that if we set ourselves apart to seek those things, God always responds. God is not passive. He's really active. He's not the one. Even though we're pursuing wisdom, he is still the chief pursuer of us and of a relationship with us. And so when you knock, he's not going to not answer. When you send a text message, he's not going to leave you unread.
00:28:16
Speaker
Yeah. There's always a response. So I think that that's just, I just love that. Amen. Amen. And I love what you said about like breaking apart, like what a full life looks like. So for me, like as I was thinking, I know, um, wow. And how that will change depending on the seasons. So I'm currently in a season right now where God is
00:28:45
Speaker
preparing me to like, I'm being called out in a way, right? And it's uncomfortable in the sense of there's a newness to it, right? Where I feel like God is like showing me more of him and myself at the same time, because again, he's our creator. So for those of us who want to know more about ourselves, let's start with our creator. But at the same time,
00:29:13
Speaker
I'm also in a season where God is telling me to start to say no to things and really good things, really good things. But that there also has to be rest and kind of re helping me recondition and relearn. And in my pursuit of wisdom, where I am placing my identity, where am I placing my worth? Am I placing it in my degrees? Am I placing it in my title? Am I placing it in anything other than him, right?
00:29:41
Speaker
And so to be able to be in a season that looks very different than my past. Like there was a time where, you know, there were a lot of hardships, a lot of being in the wilderness, right? And God meeting me there, God helping me get connected to you and like him showing his care and his love and his faith, his favor for me in different ways. And being able to know the season you're in, I think it's just so important.
00:30:10
Speaker
And so I love you
Wisdom, Intellect, & Spiritual Growth
00:30:11
Speaker
sharing that about the decision. Again, that's a very big decision that I'm sure a lot of couples have to wrestle with, but the fact that you both shared what you were feeling and how it changed over time. But ultimately, God was the deciding factor. God is the one that made the decision. And wisdom comes with grace. Oh, yes. That's good. So I think, too, where it wasn't like, oh, my husband just prayed. And then God was like,
00:30:40
Speaker
I don't care what Kim thinks. I'm only going to do it like it. Yeah, no, that's not why. That's not, you know, because while got while Cameron was seeking wisdom, God was teaching me about or or unveiling to me and even probing that, well, is your life full? Will you miss these things? Well, do you, you know, have
00:31:07
Speaker
the gift of mothering in your life. And just probing these questions to say, does this feel enough? And not in a pressuring way where it's like God's trying to persuade me to, because he doesn't have to persuade. God should not have to persuade me to give me a gift.
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah, some people need to hear that. But we're just like, you know, is this actually, are you sure that this is that that you feel like this is it that you feel like your cup is completely full in just these areas? And I think even getting me to question my own thoughts, my own feelings, my own understanding,
00:31:49
Speaker
of what fullness is. And then when I finally was like, well, maybe not, maybe when I'm older, you know, and then starting to even invite the wisdom of God to sit with me
00:32:03
Speaker
in my own thoughts and feelings or really better taking my thoughts and feelings and sitting in the wisdom of God and letting the wisdom kind of sort out emotions and feelings and experiences. Because wisdom is also just the best teacher. And wisdom is also super patient. I think
00:32:26
Speaker
You know, wisdom as a characteristic of Christ or the mind of Christ, it's like there's no rush. I just love that. Where I feel like with intellect, it's like, how much can I get? How soon can I get it? How successful can I be? I feel like wisdom is more, it's never too late.
00:32:49
Speaker
Hey, oh, I like that. That ease, it just feels great. It allows you, in the presence of God, who is the keeper of all things, the one who knows all things, there is an ease that comes along with understanding. And I, yeah. Yeah, I love the mention of grace because that is so important because it's the, we are seeking wisdom, but there's also just so much grace.
00:33:19
Speaker
And it's not so much as, I feel like I can be guilty of trying to seek wisdom like I would intellect. And I think it's a reminder in knowing the difference, right? There's almost like a collaboration that is happening within you as the Holy Spirit is dropping things and communicating things to you while you are also growing in relationship with Christ. And then also like, there's like all of these things that are happening at once, but I think it's to talk about all these things and to not mention grace.
00:33:49
Speaker
He's a huge disservice. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. When you were talking, because I think it leads really beautifully into our next question, in seeking wisdom, especially in times of hardship, it really requires trust, right? Trust is a key part of wisdom. And so what does that look like to seek wisdom in seasons of hardship? Yeah, that is...
00:34:20
Speaker
tough. But I mean, we're being real. Yeah, I just was like, it's funny because even connected to this story, Cameron and I, when my first son was born, we had a tragic loss in our family. And it was probably the lowest I've ever been with the Lord. So then I'm like, now I'm in new territory doing this new thing.
00:34:48
Speaker
um like being a mom it was in 2020 so it was the pandemic we were all terrified and shut off we had a huge loss and in our family and I
00:35:01
Speaker
was like, now I don't understand you anymore because the God I know wouldn't do this or the God I know. And for me, the hard part is when tragedy strikes or hard times come, that's my go-to response. Well, the God I know wouldn't do this or the God I thought I knew. And then I start, that's just my response in grief and in lack of understanding. That's why I love
00:35:29
Speaker
in the Proverbs when it's like seek wisdom and also knowledge, seek wisdom and also understanding. But sometimes you just don't get it. Sometimes you just don't know. Sometimes you just don't understand. And that's where faith and trust have to kick in. And I remember I was getting to, and I think by the grace of God, it does.
00:35:49
Speaker
I think that, honestly, God is holding tighter to you than you ever are to him. I really do think that God upholds you in his righteous right hand. I really think that we think we're holding on to our faith, but God is like, no, I planted that seed of faith, so I will not only give you faith, but I will sustain you in hard times. Literally, I just was like, I don't want to read my Bible. I don't want to pray. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to do anything.
00:36:19
Speaker
because this doesn't make sense. I've crunched the numbers. And I think there's this, I'm trying to remember it, but
00:36:38
Speaker
It's a passage that says, well, one of the disciples is like, but who else has the words of living life? And it's basically, I think it's Peter who says it. And it's, oh, yep, it's in John. And it's basically after,
00:36:58
Speaker
Jesus is with the disciples and he's like, you got to eat my blood, eat my body and drink the blood. And he's like explaining all these things. And it's the part where most of the disciples just leave. And then he's left with the 12. It's like where we actually get the 12.
00:37:19
Speaker
And God turned to the 12 and is, well, Jesus turned to the 12 and is like, are you going to leave too? And then Peter's like, well, where else would we go? No one else has the words of living life. And it was for me, it was that for me, where I just was like,
00:37:36
Speaker
The only reason I'm still in my faith is because I've seen too much to turn back. There's no other place for me to go. So the only reason I'm here, Lord, is because there's nowhere else to go. It's not because I love you or because I can even think about all the things that you've done, even though the list is...
00:37:55
Speaker
endless. But no one else has words of living life. So I guess I just got to trust you. I guess I just have to stay here. And even with that ounce of faith, I feel like the Lord just met me and started to walk me through things, take me back to experiences, showing me where he was, showing me how he provided, showing me how I would get from this moment to another moment, from this day to the next day. And I think
00:38:23
Speaker
That's why trust is so important because at the end of the day, we have to be able to trust beyond what we can see, whether it be tangible or even what we can imagine. We have to be able to look beyond the present circumstance. And that's trust and faith. And all of that is given by grace. But yeah, God is really one who sustains, but we really have to trust it.
00:38:53
Speaker
And the cool thing about that is when we take a risk to trust in moments of hardship, it strengthens that muscle. So every time we are faced with a challenge, we actually have more faith to believe for the next one. And so it's just, it's like the most beautiful, but most
00:39:15
Speaker
challenging, most beautiful, but most challenging thing. Because it's like, well, in order to build trust as a muscle, or as a spiritual discipline, or as a strength, it has to be tested. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, I
Wisdom as a Garden & Favorite Bible Books
00:39:33
Speaker
recently didn't realize that there were areas of my life I wasn't trusting God in.
00:39:38
Speaker
Talk about a wake-up call, right? And I've shared on the podcast before having a desire for marriage, having a desire to be a mother and all these things. And my very wise counselor was like, Crystal, you need to go back to the place in which trust was broken between you and God. And I was like, whoa, who am I? Okay. I was like, I don't want to be a job out here.
00:40:04
Speaker
Who am I in all of God's goodness and His glory and how He is so big and all these things? Who am I to want to communicate that I'm angry or I feel a certain way about God? And it was an exercise that she had me do where I had to almost make a timeline of times where I felt like God didn't show up or didn't do His end of the bargain. God will say the exercise in itself
00:40:31
Speaker
was healing for a bunch of different reasons. One, I was able to see, wait, no, actually God did show up in this way. And I did get clarity on these things and like, look at how he provided. But once I got to that point where I felt like that trust was broken and being honest about, honest to God, because again, it's in relationship, right? Like when you're seeking wisdom in relationship with God,
00:40:54
Speaker
that was where the healing could truly begin. Because I really struggled with this, like, oh, you just need to trust God more. What does that look like? Right? And it wasn't until I was really honest about, wow, like trust was broken. And like, this is part of the healing and the journey in that process. And I love what you said. It's like, now when I'm facing similar situations, I can speak truth.
00:41:18
Speaker
about what is actually going on because I know the character of God and what I've witnessed and what I've seen. Because I was very similar, like you, I was like, well, I can't go back there. I've seen what it's like back there. And, you know, we've gotten used to like how things are now. It wasn't from a place of love, right? But trust is so, so, so key. And then the last thing I wanted to share was I'm currently reading a book by Dr. Anita Phillips called The Lord and Thin.
00:41:47
Speaker
Oh, actually, no, no, no, I'm gonna send you a copy. But she has this, it's all talking about like our heart and emotions and trauma and all of these things that basically the intersection of like who we are as humans, embodied spirits and spirits embodied, right? But what I love
00:42:13
Speaker
that she said, and I think speaks a lot to what we're talking about in Seeking Wisdom, while navigating hard seasons, good seasons, regardless, is that oftentimes, even within the church, unintentionally, right? When we talk about our emotions and what we're feeling and all of those things, we think of it from a place of we're in battle or at war, right? We need to control our emotions. We need to suppress them. We need to hide them because they're a distraction, right?
00:42:40
Speaker
And she has this beautiful line where she says, we have turned our heart into a battlefield when it was always meant to be a garden. That's beautiful. Isn't it beautiful? And it's just like something like clicked in me of like, wow, if I can look at the anger that I feel
00:43:03
Speaker
not as something that needs to be suppressed or fought, but maybe as a weed that is starting to pop up that might be attached to something that has a deeper root, right? But I am cultivating a garden and it's ongoing and it's something that's beautiful. And so just thinking of that made me think of like, that's how we should also be thinking of seeking wisdom. Yeah. And oftentimes I really feel like we've made things into a battle that art
00:43:31
Speaker
or like not align with how God is calling us to live. And wisdom is so key and to be able to recenter and realign yourself. So yeah. Yeah. And I feel like wisdom is obviously Jesus is the gardener. Yeah. And wisdom is like the fertilizer.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yeah. And it helps set the pace of growth. And I think the more we have, the better. Yeah. And the more we allow God to apply, the more we allow wisdom to be applied, the better. Amen. Amen. So my next question, I wanted us to have a little bit of fun. So everybody take a deep breath.
00:44:21
Speaker
I know we've been talking about the depths of wisdom, but also the realness that comes with living out our faith. And for those of you who are listening, who are still not really sure about God, or you're in a hard season yourself, this can be hard, right, to have this conversation. And I want to just encourage you and affirm you in leaning into this, right, leaning into
00:44:48
Speaker
because we're all speaking from a very real place in which we've experienced, where we know that we have a relationship with God, where we have a history where He has shown up and He has been faithful, but in the season we're in right now, we do not feel Him, we do not understand. And so we just wanted to name that, that is a rhythm that we've both experienced. And so don't feel like you're alone in that.
00:45:14
Speaker
So my next question is a little bit lighter. So just out of curiosity, what is your favorite book of the Bible and why? Ooh, so it's a toss-up. Okay. But I probably should pick one.
00:45:37
Speaker
It still has to be songs. It's just such a worship leader thing to say, though. So I hate saying it, but it's okay. I've written a lot of poems from song. It's just so creative and artsy and expressive. And yeah, it's just I just love it.
00:45:57
Speaker
because I'm one to desire to navigate my emotions. I just gotta, I need to be able to navigate them. And I feel like Psalm is just, it helps me put language
00:46:12
Speaker
to my own prayer life. And prayer is like the lifeline for me, especially as an emotional, as a more highly sensitive emotional being. So it's
Community, Church, & Practical Wisdom
00:46:24
Speaker
gotta be songs. My second best would be John. My second favorite is John. I just like that depiction. Oh, okay. Oh, that's good. It's got everything you need in it.
00:46:34
Speaker
And, you know, it just does. It's got the foundations of faith. It's got, you know, tragedy. It's got, it's just, it's also just a good story. Like if I didn't even believe in Jesus, which praise the Lord, I do. My savior reigns. Good story. I feel like John is a good storyteller. I just, I just love it. So those would be my team.
00:47:02
Speaker
That sound for sure. Okay, so I'm gonna pick a different one. I also love Psalms. They're up there too for me. I also love the book of Habakkuk. Yes, it's a book in the Bible. But for me, Habakkuk, especially as someone who really the transition from intellect to wisdom, sorry, let me phrase that differently. I had been using them interchangeably. And so God really had to do a course correction in grace and in love.
00:47:32
Speaker
of like the difference between wisdom and intellect for me. And what I loved about Habakkuk is that he saw the injustice that was happening and he was wrestling with God. It was like, there was still a sense of like, I know who God is, right? I know of who you are and what you've done in the past, but I'm seeing this right now and I don't understand. But like the willingness, like the level of comfortability to wrestle with God in that,
00:48:01
Speaker
I just, I always admired Habakkuk in that book. And it's just like encouraging for me of like, I can wrestle with God. But also on the flip side, it might not, like the God response might not be necessarily how I hoped or what I want, right? That's not real. And then for our second one, I would probably say also a gospel, I would lean more towards Luke. It's just something about the book of
00:48:30
Speaker
the Gospel of Luke, and especially in how Jesus engages with women, right? And the marginalized, it just really speaks to me. But they're also good, but we'll just do two. I'll just do two. I know, we'll go through all the books.
00:48:49
Speaker
Then we did Old Testament, New Testaments. That's good. Yay. Well-rounded. Well-rounded. So I always like to incorporate this question because for this podcast, we have people who are followers of Christ. We have people who maybe are Christian, maybe are in a place of wrestling with their faith. Some people maybe who don't even understand the whole God thing, right? And so I always like to ask a question if someone is even curious about coming to church.
00:49:19
Speaker
or re-engaging, right? What would you say to someone who's interested in going to church but are unsure? I would say go. Just give it a try.
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah, just go. Church is the collection of those who believe in Jesus. And so whatever collected community that you can find that believes in Jesus and
00:49:58
Speaker
some read word and sing songs, some pray more than they sing. There's so many different types of churches, but I would say give it a try. And you don't have to change yourself to go exactly as you are. Just be around the collection of God's people because God is amongst his people. And all you have to, just this idea of being in the presence of God, just go.
00:50:25
Speaker
stand in the presence and see what happens. And like I said before, God is a pursuer. And so just go, just show up. And maybe bring a friend with you if you're scared or nervous. Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I tell people, you guys have heard me share it on the podcast before too, how when I made the decision to go back to church because I had walked away from the faith,
00:50:55
Speaker
it was actually the way in which someone greeted me at the door and the warmth I felt in all of like all the emotions I was bringing into that space that I experienced God's love for me, right? And so I love that of like, just come and see, just come and try, but also be open, right? To the ways in which you may encounter God, well, you will encounter God, but the way in which he might show up and who he might use. Amen.
00:51:26
Speaker
So Pastor Kimberly, is there anything that we didn't touch on, anything else that you want to add? I know Winston is such a huge topic and I feel like you've handled it and talked about it in such a way that is so intentional and encouraging, but also really invites us in to like do more work and to seek more of it. So is there anything else you wanted to add?
00:51:53
Speaker
I guess when you said that, my thought was, um, I know I keep saying pursue wisdom, pursue wisdom, pursue wisdom and how to, I would say, you know, then it's like, well, how I think the tangible ways are reading the word of God and praying.
00:52:11
Speaker
And then also moments of solitude with the Lord because wisdom is gentle and easy. It takes its time. Sometimes I think we wait to the last minute to engage the Lord. And there's something about taking, setting time apart, even if it's a little bit of time.
00:52:36
Speaker
but daily to just sit and wait for the wisdom of heaven. And I think like I'll sound like my grandmother now, but like back in the day, they used to have like Terry services where they would wait on the spirit of the Lord. They were just, it wasn't church. So it wasn't teaching or preaching or singing. It was like, you know, music was played, but cause you know,
00:53:01
Speaker
worship and Christians love a good worship service. We love a good praise cord. Amen. Amen. But it was the whole point of the service was just this wait on the move of God. There was no rush. There was no agenda except we're just going to sit here until or like we think about Acts 2. We're just going to sit here and wait for the Holy Spirit to come. And I think
00:53:27
Speaker
And seeking wisdom, there is a waiting. I was even thinking about like, you know, uh, in my story with Cameron 21 days of fasting before he felt like he even came close to an answer. And then even then we had a small discussion, but then I was already pregnant. So it was like, Oh, okay. I guess, uh, there's the answer there. And then for me, like, or even like, you know, being pregnant, it's a nine month journey.
00:53:55
Speaker
really 40 weeks. And so it's like there's a waiting, there's a developing, there's a learning, there's a changing and growing that's gradual. So I just, in seeking wisdom, take your time. And the best ways to even approach it are reading your word, praying, and then solitude where it's just you and the Lord. And then the other thing I would add is we have to remember to seek God on the small things or seek the wisdom of God on the small things as well as the big things.
00:54:25
Speaker
sometimes where it's all it's usually like purpose or provision or like those are usually the big things but like God should I be eating more fruits and vegetables? I feel a little weird or God uh you know should I is there someone at the grocery store I'm supposed to be talking to today or God is today a rest day or is today a push day um
00:54:49
Speaker
you know, God, should I be watching this TV show? Like all of the, God wants to give us insight on everything. Um, but he also gives us freedom in everything. So, you know,
00:55:08
Speaker
be curious and allow that curiosity to not just go be around the big things like purpose and provision and direction, but also the little things. Because I think in that song where it was saying like, it adds days to your life and years.
00:55:27
Speaker
because you're navigating the world as a wise person. You're making good financial investments. You're making good health decisions. You're making like the wisdom of God spans every career, every field, every, you know, aspect of life. So just making sure that we're doing that too. And that's the thing I think I forget because sometimes I'll go to God and I'll be like, I want to talk about this. And he's like, I want to talk about how you only begin six hours of sleep. And I'm like, what?
00:55:54
Speaker
Oh. Why didn't you talk about that? And he's like, well, you don't know that your sleep actually helps with your emotional regulation, which helps with your decision making, which helps with your... And I'm like, oh, well, you are wise. So obviously, if you want to talk about this thing that I feel like is small, maybe it's impacting more than I think. It's just allowing God to touch every aspect of your life.
00:56:18
Speaker
We're allowing the wisdom of God to touch every other. So
Closing & Reflective Reminder
00:56:21
Speaker
good. So good. So obviously she, Patrick Kimberly was the right person to bring on here to talk about wisdom and how to seek it. Thank you so much for joining us. Yay. Of course. This is fun. Thanks for having me. We are definitely going to have to have you come back and talk about other topics. Um, but thank you all for joining us today. Uh, remember that there is more than enough space for you to be seen and to see others.
00:56:48
Speaker
We'll see you next time.