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050 - What We Lose When We Forget We're Family with Fatima-Ayan Malika Hirsi
13 Plays8 days ago
"I don't believe everything is forgivable... but I do believe everything is connected."
In this stirring episode of Vulnerability Muscle, Reggie D. Ford sits down with writer, mother, and poetic truth-teller Fatima-Ayan Malika Hirsi, whose work is rooted in world-building, social change, and collaborative liberation.
Based on the unceded lands of the T’Sou-ke Nation, Fatima is a Black mother and artist whose poetry appears in MAYDAY, Torch, Obsidian: Literature & Arts in the African Diaspora, and beyond. She brings fierce conviction and emotional clarity to topics many avoid—grief, rage, justice, and the sacred role of feeling deeply in a numbed world.
From a dream visitation with her late mother to crying as a sacred act of surrender, Fatima opens her heart and reveals the raw edges of what it means to live fully and love radically. She shares how her upbringing shaped her lifelong commitment to justice, the roots of her poetic activism, and why society's fear of emotion is a systemic tactic of control.
Together, she and Reggie explore:
- Why crying is not weakness, but a portal to healing
- How motherhood deepens empathy and fuels global love
- Why true change demands action beyond art, voting, or performative allyship
Fatima closes the conversation with an unforgettable reading of her poem, This is the Soul of My Soul, a eulogy and indictment born from the crisis in Gaza. Through it all, she invites us to see each other—not as strangers or enemies—but as kin.
🎧 Call to Action:
This episode will stir your soul and ask more of your heart. Listen now—and let it move you into feeling, into action, and into kinship.
📇 Contact Info:
Guest – Fatima-Ayan Malika Hirsi
🌐 Website: fatimaayanmalikahirsi.com
📱 Socials: @fatimawritingdoula
Host – Reggie D. Ford
🌐 Website: reggiedford.com
📱 Socials: @reggiedford on all platforms
📌 Key Quotes / Takeaways for Social Media or YouTube Description:
- "Crying is a portal. I’m not the same person after the tears come."
- "We are kin—not just by blood, but by being alive, by feeling."
- "Art is not enough. If you read my poems and don’t take action, then what’s the point?"
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Vulnerability Muscle' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Collective kinship, collective care, loving one another despite differences, across differences, across, you know, life forms. You know, the earth is alive. All the plants out there, the trees, the animals, they are all alive and feeling. Elephants cry.
00:00:16
Speaker
Orcas carry their dead calves for miles. We are all feeling emotional beings. Welcome
Meet Fatima Ayan Malika Hirsi
00:00:22
Speaker
to Vulnerability Muscle, the inspiring podcast, challenging norms, and helping you redefine vulnerability as a strength.
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Each episode of Vulnerability Muscle dives into a variety of topics such as mental health, social issues, and mindset shifts.
00:00:39
Speaker
We explore the power of vulnerability and fostering meaningful connections. healing, building resilience, and promoting personal growth. Sometimes these conversations are uncomfortable, but good workouts often are.
00:00:54
Speaker
So join us and flex that vulnerability muscle. Welcome to this episode of Vulnerability Muscle. I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford, here at Vulnerability Muscle, where we're redefining vulnerability as a strength to help connect, to heal, to grow, to innovate.
00:01:09
Speaker
And today I have
Fatima's Emotional Reflection
00:01:10
Speaker
with me an amazing guest. Fatima Ayan Malika Hirsi is a Black mother who spends time with forests and waters on unceded lands of the Suu Kyi Nation?
00:01:24
Speaker
South. South Kyi Nation. South Nation. um Her work strives to instigate action and service to world building, social change, and collaboration.
00:01:37
Speaker
Her poems appear and are forthcoming in Mayday, Torch, Obsidian, Literature and Arts, and the African Diaspora and other portals. She wants you to scream for a free Palestine.
00:01:51
Speaker
Wow, what a beautiful introduction. And I can already tell the poetic nature of that, that you have way with words. Welcome, Fatima. How are you? I am well. Thank you so much for having me.
00:02:04
Speaker
I am so grateful to have you. And
The Power of Crying and Vulnerability
00:02:08
Speaker
i want to open up with a question that has just been on my heart. And this is before we even hop into anything else. But how's your heart today?
00:02:21
Speaker
Today, my heart is doing better than it has in recent days. And I think it's because last night I had the most wonderful dream of, a I had the most wonderful visitation from my mother who died recently.
00:02:40
Speaker
And so I'm just really like, just, I feel love just bubbling up inside me at the memory of like holding her hand in the dream and being interlocked arm in arm. And that's how we would walk around everywhere. We'd be in public just like,
00:02:56
Speaker
engulfed in each other. And i always felt so much love. Like everyone can see how much I love my mother. And i just feel really grateful to be swimming in the energy with you.
00:03:10
Speaker
Wow. Well, there's a lot there from the gratitude that you experienced, the love that you shared in that memory. of of holding her hand. and i'm I'm grateful that you had that opportunity and that it combated some of the hard feelings that you've been feeling recently. So I'm thankful for that visitation that you got.
00:03:29
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah. All right. I want to hear way more about everything that you got going on and about the stories that you have to share. But let's hop into a segment I call What Comes to Mind.
00:03:43
Speaker
And so you let me know the first thing you think of when I say this next thing. What comes to mind when you hear the word vulnerability?
00:03:53
Speaker
Crying. Surrender. I that. I'm going to let that breathe for a minute. I like
Society's Fear of Emotions and Connection
00:04:01
Speaker
that. What do you do to center yourself when you're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, or maybe even depressed?
00:04:11
Speaker
Cry. Breathe. Breathe. feel my feet on the ground and think about everything beneath my feet and all the life and how everything is connected.
00:04:27
Speaker
Yes, we are all connected. i want to I want to touch on cry because it's come up twice. Tell me about that. Tell me what crying does for you, what it feels like, what comes out of that experience for you.
00:04:39
Speaker
It goes back to surrender. it feels like a cleansing, release, a letting go, a... um I think crying is a portal. you know like i feel one way before the tears come and then the tears come and after they're all out, I just feel like more... i don't know if buoyant is the word in all situations, but I i feel better, certainly. And i feel really grateful that like crying comes so easily.
00:05:15
Speaker
and When I was in Dallas, I was known as the crying poet of Dallas because I just like get on stage and like, as I'm sharing my poetry, i just be, you know, a face full of tears and not even like skip a beat while I'm sharing. And,
00:05:32
Speaker
you know oh i could you know, you might have to put a cap on this because I can talk about crying. I can talk about how society doesn't want us to do it. Yeah. You know, like. Do you encourage it for other people?
00:05:43
Speaker
oh yes. Yes. Certainly. i you know, it's, and it's, I think it's a gift and I think it's also something that doesn't come naturally to everyone because society has so told us that it's not okay. And dominant society does not want us to be open with our feelings and is scared of our feelings because what happens when we're open with our feelings is that we reach and connect with other people. And that is exactly what those in power don't want us to do.
00:06:10
Speaker
And, um
Cherished Memories and Influences
00:06:14
Speaker
Yeah, I hope everyone can come to a place where they can cry openly. And i I feel for certain populations where it's even more denigrated than for others. You know, like you as a black man must know how hard society is like, don't show your feelings.
00:06:29
Speaker
When years without crying, when years suppressing those emotions. and And I think that's one of the greatest realizations that I had was that I am human and humans cry.
00:06:42
Speaker
And so reclaiming my humanity by crying, by expressing the whole spectrum of emotions is something that I am most proud of today for myself and being able to get to that place. And so thank you for that.
00:06:55
Speaker
I see that, appreciate that. ah What is one of your favorite childhood memories Fatima?
00:07:08
Speaker
i have this memory. of my mother. I guess she's just like with me today. i mean, she's with me every day, but um here we are now. And I am thinking about when we did not have a car and I had siblings.
00:07:24
Speaker
And so we would walk to the grocery store, the whole family, you know, just like weighed down by grocery bags. and And I remember she had a runny nose and she wanted to blow her nose on my shirt.
00:07:39
Speaker
And I was adamantly against this and she wanted to play. So she was like trying to get my shirt and I ran away from her and she chased and we're both like, you know, running around the middle of the street with all these grocery bags.
00:07:53
Speaker
And finally, like we ended up in like a literal tussle, like rolling down the street together, like in a giggle of laughter. And like, I just remember the feeling of that like deep guttural laughter. I think I was probably laughing so hard I was crying.
Early Activism and Supportive Family
00:08:11
Speaker
Wow, that's so good. Oh, that's so good. i can just see it. um I have stories connected to the grocery store as well. And um that's an experience that you hold on to for a long time, especially when It is a challenge when it's not ease.
00:08:31
Speaker
There is you remember you you remember those things. And to have such a beautiful memory tied to to that, you know, walking from the grocery store with bags and rolling around laughing with your mom like that is that is beautiful.
00:08:45
Speaker
Wow. You've brought up your mom multiple times. I'm curious if you want to kind of paint a picture of what it was like growing up with her, or what what your your upbringing was like.
00:08:58
Speaker
um Yeah, she...
00:09:05
Speaker
Oh, yes. I love the picture. Beautiful. and She was my best friend. She was my biggest cheerleader. She was... a always felt like I could tell her anything.
00:09:23
Speaker
She also like really told me how to use my voice. She defended me, you know. um Where do I start? That's such a big question. i wouldn't Talk about this person who you love so much. Yeah.
00:09:39
Speaker
I think that it's so important to, i mean, you said that she's always with you. And I thought that was beautiful because when when people transition, there's often this this loss of who they were when they were here, but their soul and their spirit carries on. And she's shining brightly through you today. And I think that that has been instilled in you and the influence that she's had on your life is is evident. And I'm i'm curious if if anything that she did or that you guys did together growing up influenced some of the ways in which you speak or or write and and share your yourself so vulnerably.
00:10:19
Speaker
Oh, certainly. she is a
00:10:26
Speaker
In the past, I've been asked certain questions like, you know how did you get here or what's behind your success or whatever? And I always want to say my mother is to blame for every success I will ever have.
00:10:41
Speaker
She is
Collective Kinship and Interconnectedness
00:10:42
Speaker
like part of that. and i can go back to- her reading to me every night and like starting me out with that love of words and getting me hooked on phonics before I even started school, I could read and her, you know, she was also, there were spans of my childhood where she was a single mom. So she would read the story while I was in school where we left off so that when i was with the babysitter at night, I just had to push play and hear her voice.
00:11:11
Speaker
and Wow. She found me a teen magazine to work at when I was in middle school, just funded by the city. And I remember starting it in middle school and being like, oh, I want to be the editor. i want to be the editor in chief one day and seeing like the big high schoolers who were running things. And like I did, i made my way up there. and I'm thinking about also not just in terms of poetry and giving me a love of words, but also giving me a love for justice. and very early on, I don't know exactly how I came to this understanding that things were not right in the United States.
00:11:48
Speaker
You know, like I very early on saw this two worlds where it's like, oh, 4th of July, America, la la la la, la, flowers. And I also saw this other side, like, why is my mom killing herself to work? Like,
00:12:04
Speaker
Why are there people homeless on the street or unhoused and you know all of those things? And it was instilled so deeply so early that in first grade, I was decided I didn't want to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance or say it with everyone else. In the first grade, you said?
00:12:19
Speaker
In the first grade. Wow. And this was not okay with my teacher. such that I got like called up and talked to. And i told my mom about it or my teacher told my mom, I don't exactly remember,
Dark Moon Poetry and Artistic Process
00:12:32
Speaker
but I do remember my mother going to the school and talking to my teacher about it.
00:12:36
Speaker
And then coming to an arrangement that was, i had to stand, but I did not have to put my hand on my heart or recite the words. And that's who my mother was. like She showed me what is right and what is real. And like when i wanted to stand up for that. She was there beside me to defend my rights, to express myself.
00:13:01
Speaker
Wow. What a what a ah brave first grader to be able to stand in in what they knew to be what's right and what's real. what as ah As an adult looking back on that or or reflecting on that time,
00:13:17
Speaker
or just reflecting on your so your life in America, what do you view as right and what has America gotten wrong? I know that's a big old question.
00:13:30
Speaker
This is a whole like series of books. I know, yeah. I'm going to sit back and I'm going to just watch. This is the for Fatima show. Let's go.
00:13:38
Speaker
Okay. You had a two-part question. The last part was what has America got wrong? What was the first part? What is your view of what's right? What is my view of collective kinship, collective care, loving one another despite differences across differences across forms. The earth is alive, all the plants out there, the trees, the animals, they are all alive and feeling. Elephants cry, workers carry their dead calves for miles.
00:14:06
Speaker
We are all feeling emotional beings. And to deny anyone basic, you know just basic rights, basic joys, basic needs and is wrong. like It all comes comes down to like be kind to, right? The golden rule, basics, right? like Love thy neighbor, everybody's your neighbor.
00:14:30
Speaker
Right, right. we we I think we have gotten that grossly wrong um where we view people of something different, you different whatever, fill in the blank as less than or as a bad entity in themselves. And it's like no person, no being, no.
00:14:56
Speaker
I love how you intertwine that with nature and the collective universe. Like we are all one. And none of those things are bad. None of those things are inherently um unworthy.
00:15:10
Speaker
They are all worthy just because they are. And I think that it's so beautiful, collective kinship. I hadn't heard that term before. And I'm curious what where that came from and and when did when did you really start thinking in those terms?
00:15:26
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't exactly know when that exact vocabulary came to me or where it came from. Perhaps I read it somewhere you know saw it on Instagram.
00:15:38
Speaker
um I don't have a memory of that moment, but I do remember in COVID, one of my closest friends, Angel Faz, Faz made a a picture.
00:15:51
Speaker
They're an amazing artist. And they made a ah an image called Collective Care. And it was um part of this larger art exhibition. And it was an image of just like people in masks because that was what collective care looked like at that time. And I would argue still looks like.
00:16:11
Speaker
And thinking about collective care brought me to thinking about collective kinship and how we are just like all family and how would the earth be such a different place if we just considered family to not just be the blood in our veins, but just everyone alive who is caring and kind and you know deserves the same thing that you deserve or I deserve.
00:16:38
Speaker
Wow. Wow. We are we are all kin. Far beyond the blood in our veins. You have such a way with words and such a a way of looking at the world that I think, and it's coming it's coming out through even some of the word choice. like Like you said, love a bunch throughout this this conversation. And you've talked about that collective unity of all these things and people and I'm you've, you've built something to, to highlight voices and ah you're the founder of dark moon poetry and arts. Is that correct?
00:17:16
Speaker
Well, tell me the inspiration behind that and how you uplift the arts and and the world through that work. her That is actually a project that has ended in that incarnation.
00:17:29
Speaker
And so that looked like me living in Dallas and all of the big city art things going on. And you know, definitely feeling nourished, but also feeling like something was missing.
00:17:42
Speaker
And so I wanted to co-create a space with, by welcoming other people into somewhere that uplifted feminine energies and non-binary energies, and energies of color to share art across disciplines. So not just a poetry show, but like also music, you know, also performance arts.
00:18:02
Speaker
um A place where ah mother can do her performance art while walking around breastfeeding, while her other child runs around. A place that was just inclusive. And also, you know, had had some magical energies in there. i love the moon, so everything I do, lot of what I do incorporates moon energy. Yeah.
00:18:26
Speaker
So yeah, that's the story of Dark Moon. It lasted for two or three years. And it started out in my living room, just me inviting some friends to share poetry. And then um I had this goal of it being in a particular venue and growing. And by the third show, it was monthly, it was there. And then it found a permanent home at Deep Vellum Books, which houses Deep Vellum Publishing, which is my publisher of Dreams for Earth.
00:18:51
Speaker
Wow. Wow. That's so cool. I mean, just to build the the community around a shared vision where people feel included to to be themselves, to show up as themselves and to express themselves through their artwork is it so beautiful.
00:19:06
Speaker
you you your Your work, i want I want to hear about the process. What is the internal process of you creating a poem that ah you ultimately share with the world?
00:19:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:19:21
Speaker
it's,
00:19:25
Speaker
there's, there's kind of two sides to it. So a lot of people think of writing as being an individual pursuit. You know, you go off in your writing caves and you write a poem. And for me, that's not how it works. My poems don't,
00:19:39
Speaker
I require in my current version of my life community. And so most of my poems are written when I'm looking into a screen and someone else is there and we're both like looking down at our writing and we're doing it together.
00:19:53
Speaker
um So that's one piece. And another piece is that I don't really think about sharing with the world when I'm actually writing. What I'm writing, it's just what I'm feeling. It's just who or what I'm being haunted by.
00:20:08
Speaker
It's just what, you know, what came to me while I was washing the dishes. And finally I'm sitting down and I can release and let that out. So that's, that's what it looks like. And also when i begin a poem, i never know where it's going to end.
00:20:24
Speaker
It just comes out as it comes out. And then it's, it's truly almost like a haunting or possession because I looked down and I'm like, where did this come from? Thank you. And also what? Yeah.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah. do you ever Do you ever feel, so i write poetry at times and ah even, this is a lot of poetry that I don't share with the world. I just i just keep and I write it. a way that I express myself.
00:20:49
Speaker
But sometimes I feel that have to keep going, right? Like a two-line poem just doesn't feel complete to me. And i'm I'm curious what your thoughts around that because i i would love the permission for you to tell me that, hey, that all those two-line poems are okay.
00:21:07
Speaker
Oh, certainly. I think they're okay if you think they're okay. So if the root of your discontent is, this is not what society says as a poem, I would tell you to say, fuck that.
00:21:19
Speaker
But if the root of your discontent is, oh, I feel like I have more to say, then I would say, okay, respect that and invite those words to come through. and That's beautiful. Do you ever...
00:21:32
Speaker
right I'm sure you have many writings that are not shared with other people, correct? Is that fair to say? Do you have a a thought behind those type of writings? Is it because of the level of vulnerability? Is it because of the level of quality or ah what prevents you from releasing certain things versus others? Because I have some friends who do poetry, who do music, who write, and they're best for me, like having been a confidant, their best stuff is on a hard drive or a folder that nobody else sees.
00:22:08
Speaker
Do you have any rationale behind what you share and what you don't share? Not really. For me, it all comes down to time. So for example, I have in my notebook, I have so many poems or so many writings that I have begun, but just not had time to return to.
00:22:25
Speaker
And so I might start something on a ferry boat where there's no Wi-Fi anymore. and be like, oh, I want to return to this, but before i can return to this, I might have a writing date with a friend and we throw ah prompts at each other and then something comes
Handling Criticism and Staying True
00:22:41
Speaker
through in that time. And so for me, it's more of an issue of time related to making something ready to be shared versus like not feeling like I can share.
00:22:52
Speaker
Interesting, love that. Yeah, I don't really feel like I have any borders around what can be shared. Wow. And and you've you've packaged your poems. I don't even know if that's the correct way to say that.
00:23:07
Speaker
But your poems have been cataloged and you've you've shared that with with the world and many publications. Can you talk about what that process was like for you um to, you know, the the time before you released those and the time right after? Like, what did that feel like when you exposed yourself in that way?
00:23:28
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:23:30
Speaker
Before,
00:23:34
Speaker
i i don't know if there's a big difference in how I felt before and after. i think for me, the biggest difference is before and after the poem actually exists versus, you know, when it's out in the world, it's just like, oh, this is a poem I already know so well. Like, I already feel like I've released it. It doesn't really matter that all these other eyes have seen it because I have come to completion with it and I've spent so much time with it editing and thinking about it. And so i don't think that sharing it gives a different feeling.
00:24:10
Speaker
you know there's the There's the, oh, it's nice that like my work exists in this world with these other people who I admire, who are also in this issue, or like I really respect the work that this journal puts out and I'm so honored that they are uplifting my voice as well. But I i i think gratitude for those aspects is the biggest difference versus if I just keep it to myself, then I'm just grateful to God.
00:24:37
Speaker
But once it's out in the world, there's these other people who deserve gratitude as well. Yeah, yeah. Do you ever encounter um criticism for the work that you put out and how do you deal with that?
00:24:51
Speaker
i I have encountered criticism from people who are not poets and who are not artists. The only time I have encountered criticism is when I was Lyft driver in Dallas.
00:25:05
Speaker
And I had my car decked out. it was You could tell it was an artist's car because I had my chapbooks. You know that little flap on the passenger seat? see So if you're sitting in the back seat, you can pop a folder or something. So I had my chapbooks there. I had signs. I had rocks and crystals and all kinds of stuff.
00:25:23
Speaker
And so you know i had my books available for purchase for my Lyft. passengers and I would have people flip through it sometimes and be like, this is really dark.
00:25:35
Speaker
Or, you know, the title of that chapbook was everything good is dying. And it was about politics in the United States and globally. And a lot of the poems had titles taken from actual news headlines. So, you know, people would say it was dark or, you know, they would.
00:25:56
Speaker
um And I would just say, you know, like, this is our world. Our world isn't all flowers and rainbows. And if we pretend that it is, then it never will be because we need to address the things that are not.
00:26:10
Speaker
Wow. Wow. That's powerful.
Nature and Interconnectedness
00:26:14
Speaker
And you stay so convicted in your your views. you you You give me the sense of so much self-assurance and self-security that the opinions of others aren't affecting you.
00:26:26
Speaker
Is that something that is instilled in you? Would you say that's a fair statement or is that something that's been instilled in you over your lifetime? Yeah. I wouldn't say that the opinions of others don't affect me.
00:26:37
Speaker
i would say that the opinions of those I love and care about and respect very much affect me, but the opinion of someone who is misinformed does not affect me. That's good. That's good. How do you tell the difference?
00:26:51
Speaker
Oh, it's very clear. It's all energy. It's all energy and what someone says is
00:26:59
Speaker
what someone says Something that I've heard that my Nana used to say is like, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. And that's not a Nanaism. I know that exists like out in the world alongside her, but I very much think that it's very clear who your people are and who they are not. And if someone is not your people, you don't need to be concerned with their thoughts about you.
00:27:23
Speaker
Yes. Oh, I like that. Thank you for that. ah you You talked about ah living with with but beside forests and beside waters, and I'm curious what the role of nature has played in your journey, in your life, and in your creation.
00:27:42
Speaker
have Yeah, I think nature constantly, constantly, constantly reminds us ah about collective kinship. So, Just yesterday, i was reading up on this plant called ghost pipe, also known as ghost plant or Indian pipe.
00:28:01
Speaker
And it's a flower, but it has like fungal properties. And the internet calls it a parasitic flower, but... you know what is what some people call parasitism, I would say, is a different kind of like symbiotic relationship. And so I think that nature is just always showing us the way that we rely on one each one another. And there's just nothing that exists in isolation. you know From the the struggles to the love, it's all connected to everything else.
00:28:39
Speaker
Wow.
Complexity of Forgiveness and Justice
00:28:40
Speaker
Wow. That's deep. i can you Can you elaborate on what you meant with ah what some will consider a parasitic relationship being something deeper?
00:28:52
Speaker
I thought that that was very insightful. Yeah. you know I'm just thinking about the United States where there's a, and maybe globally also, you know people of certain privileges might see someone unhoused and be like,
00:29:06
Speaker
oh, you're a parasite for a society because you need XYZ things. And it's like, well, look at you over here hoarding wealth and like not sharing anything you have. And how many people have had to suffer for you to have what you have?
00:29:19
Speaker
Yeah. So as ah that's powerful. Wow. Wow. um you know i i I've gotten, as I've grown, I've become much more compassionate to nature and even you know thinking about the leaves that I pick because it's not my right to to take leaves off of trees.
00:29:41
Speaker
And ah to the mosquitoes, I don't like mosquitoes and I sometimes swatted them out of instinct, but like, who am I to kill these things? Who am I to harm? And what's nature? and And everything has its its ah right to exist.
00:29:57
Speaker
And I think just that reframe around what is a parasite ah is is very interesting to me. So I'm going to be pondering that for a minute. So thank you for for that insight.
00:30:10
Speaker
um I'm curious how you, as as someone who is speaking truth to systems, as someone who is advocating for the rights of yourself and others, how do you protect your energy and your emotional well-being through that?
00:30:29
Speaker
With a lot of intention. i don't ah i don't do what doesn't nourish me. i don't.
00:30:39
Speaker
I do what gives me joy. Yeah. What gives you joy? Being with my family, my loved ones, my friends, going to the ocean, being in the forest, and having a writing date with a friend, meditation.
00:30:56
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Oh, I love all those things. I think that's so great. um I'm curious what the role of ah forgiveness plays in your life.
00:31:07
Speaker
Is that something that you've seen in have you received forgiveness in any aspect of life and have you given it? And what does that look like in terms of a ah more macro level?
00:31:21
Speaker
If we were to get to a place of the utopia that the world, guess, desires.
00:31:32
Speaker
I don't think utopia is ever achievable. Everyone has a different version of utopia. you know My utopia is someone else's dystopia for whatever reason. They don't like equality.
00:31:47
Speaker
I think that...
00:31:51
Speaker
I have forgiven.
00:31:56
Speaker
who
00:32:02
Speaker
i think I was forgiven. when have I been forgiven? I'm sure that I have. I feel like throughout my life, there have been spans when I did not call my mother every day and she would forgive me.
00:32:17
Speaker
I think... i think I have a very, maybe that's not right to say, forgiveness is a challenge for me because i am a quadruple Scorpio and I hold onto things and i have very high standards, I've been told, for my expectations of others.
00:32:40
Speaker
And There are some, I don't believe that everything is forgivable.
Art as Advocacy for Justice in Palestine
00:32:45
Speaker
You know, there's a meme online that is, that I so relate to. And it's like torn between restorative justice and you need to slap that person.
00:32:54
Speaker
And that's me. It's like, oh, i I want to believe that every person can change and every person can grow. And also what Israel is doing in Palestine is unforgivable. Every person behind that, every person who has condoned it, every person who continues to stay silent is unforgivable.
00:33:14
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. Wow. i That is so, so powerful. And I think it's it's it's more than a boundary that you've set around so certain things aren't forgivable.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah. And ah I think that that is, I don't, see I don't know if I, I, I see the world in that same way. um But I can understand it.
00:33:42
Speaker
I can understand when there's so much passion behind the, the fight for justice and to see day in and day out.
00:33:53
Speaker
Injustice and harm and in abuse being inflicted on people. And how that feels unforgivable. ah Yeah, I... i am That's powerful.
00:34:07
Speaker
Wow. Wow. I'm curious if you have... written anything in response to what's going on in Palestine, or if you have any things to share that can highlight the passion that you you hold for justice.
00:34:24
Speaker
Do you have any writings that you are really willing to share with us? Yes, I do. On this topic of forgiveness, I will share, will share something.
00:34:45
Speaker
And you don't have to hope. that We talked about this earlier, but like your language is is welcomed here. I want all of it. I want it to be as colorful as you want it to be.
00:34:56
Speaker
And um we will highlight and celebrate you as you are. Thank you. Absolutely. This poem is called, this is the Soul of My Soul.
00:35:09
Speaker
And those are words spoken by Khaled Nabhan as he cradled the body of his three-year-old granddaughter, Reem who was killed by an Israeli airstrike on Gaza in November 2023.
00:35:22
Speaker
Khaled was killed this most recent December, December 2024. and so There's this image of him. Have you seen this image of him holding his granddaughter? a There's this image. It's been made into art by artists all over the world. and Those words, this is the soul of my soul, will never leave my soul.
00:35:47
Speaker
And when I think about what I'm seeing every day, when I think about you know the sanitized images of what's happening and the sanitized headlines of what's happening, and they're not showing the children who are you know losing their limbs and sustaining these horrific injuries and undergoing operations with no anesthesia, no proper medical care.
00:36:15
Speaker
Gaza has the highest rate of child amputees in history. And there's there's so much that I can say, but I think I just want to read this poem. This is the soul of my soul.
00:36:33
Speaker
I loved her too. I love them all, always will. A new violence blossoms inside my bosom. I sing onyx into its sharpness. Surely this is what the ones who did this are doing this want, right?
00:36:53
Speaker
I want to give them what they want. What they want is not laughter on playgrounds. I want to be the thing they love, which is not peace. Inside me, oh aches.
00:37:05
Speaker
I cannot type words I want for fear of being dragged away. Politicians don't understand metaphor. This is a poem. This poem is not a threat.
00:37:16
Speaker
It is larger. Cradle this as promise. Our rage will bore into the next lives of those responsible. on all their futures. Every time they fall in love, their hearts will break.
00:37:30
Speaker
Every morning tear we cry will haunt them past their graves. Each time they return to earth, it will be to feel the pain they caused. There is no redemption. There is no apology for this.
00:37:43
Speaker
Damn these fingernails of mine. Damn these nostrils. Were I a God, i would be the kind to be feared. But I am only a mother.
00:37:58
Speaker
powerful So no, I don't believe forgiveness is always warranted. This is the soul of my soul. Wow. I think in in in that case, right, there has to be extreme.
00:38:15
Speaker
you You can't you can't bring back lives. You can't bring back the the peace that a a child is born with. You can't bring back those things. And so to continue to perpetuate that harm.
00:38:30
Speaker
Yeah, there's no forgiving that. So where there is justice, where there is repair, those things I feel are forgivable.
00:38:41
Speaker
But your words are so powerful. and ah love And love how you embody the essence of what you share.
00:38:55
Speaker
and yeah It exudes through your pores and it is so evident that you, you're to your dying days, you are going to be a force to be reckoned with.
00:39:06
Speaker
And
Parenthood and Worldbuilding
00:39:07
Speaker
i think the world gets better with people who challenge the status quo as you do. And I'm so grateful for are doing. our
00:39:19
Speaker
fighting for. um I'm so grateful for your passion. I'm so grateful that you give a fuck. Because there are so many people who sit on the sidelines and who don't give a fuck. There's so many people who whose issue it's not.
00:39:33
Speaker
And so they move no needles. and And you are such a strong force in this world. And you're a mother.
00:39:45
Speaker
You you've created life. And so there is another generation of of of you coming up that is going to continue to be that ripple effect that continues to push the needle to change, good to to fight for change.
00:40:03
Speaker
Tell me what it's been like to to become a mother, to raise a child and to to think about what their future is in this world.
00:40:17
Speaker
I think that for me, parenthood has been the ultimate act of world building. And
00:40:30
Speaker
I process the world differently. i feel everything more. i it feels so cliche and I've heard it a thousand times and it is so true that I didn't know i could love this deeply.
00:40:48
Speaker
And when I see my daughters and when I feel those moments of extreme, extreme love, you know, like we're playing, it's fun, but you know, every day there's a moment where I'm just like, like I'm in quicksand, but the quicksand is love and I'm just drowning in it.
00:41:12
Speaker
And I just and i start crying min because I feel the love for them and I feel the love for all the people I have seen inside my phone who are having that stolen. and I feel like my love for my children has helped me to love the world and people and all living beings more.
00:41:33
Speaker
And I grew up thinking that that was who I was like, you know I'd be a child and whenever we were done with our worksheets, worksheet culture, i would draw on the back of my worksheets like, ah and you know save the Amazon or everybody recycle, you know my little liberation PSAs.
00:41:55
Speaker
I thought like that that just grew into a feeling that I never knew could be so large.
00:42:08
Speaker
I don't know if I answered all of your questions. No, what you shared was beautiful. I love the metaphor of ah of being in quicksand, but that quicksand being love.
00:42:20
Speaker
if If we are so fortunate to be in that position in life, like I'm like melting over here wanting to feel that feeling. So thank you for that. That was really, that was so beautifully put. Yeah.
00:42:33
Speaker
Oh, man. i am ah i want to I want to hop into a segment um before we got ah before we close out here. And it's a a fill in the blank. And so you can carry these as long as you want or as short. It could be one word or and entire story.
00:42:49
Speaker
um But you let me know what but you think of.
00:42:56
Speaker
Liberation means blank.
00:43:03
Speaker
Fear of those in power.
Call to Action for Community Engagement
00:43:06
Speaker
Can you repeat that? I'm sorry. um Fear held by those in power.
00:43:14
Speaker
Like those in power fear liberation. got My greatest source of strength is blank.
00:43:28
Speaker
God, my ancestors. yeah My superpower is blank. Feeling.
00:43:39
Speaker
If I could tell my younger self one thing, it would be
00:43:50
Speaker
Do what you know you are here to do. That's real. A poem or a line that haunts me is blank.
00:44:10
Speaker
The duty of an artist is to make the revolution irresistible. Tony K. Bambara. I love that. Wow. That's so powerful. Fatima, this is, this has been such a, ah I don't want to use a word that I've used before. I have to use a different word because it's such a unique experience that I've had with you.
00:44:34
Speaker
um
00:44:38
Speaker
captivating. You've captivated me with your passion. And I think that that is something that I don't and don't feel that often. I'm not going to you exude it.
00:44:52
Speaker
You scream it. you You shout it. And you express it with tears, with words, with emotion, and and with actual action. You are doing the thing.
00:45:03
Speaker
And you're not sitting back. And you're not watching life go by. You are making it happen. And I'm so proud of you for all that you've put out into the world and all that you are to the world.
00:45:16
Speaker
And I thank you for introducing me to this concept of collective kinship, because that is something that I will carry with me in every second of every day as I interact with all the beings of the world. So I appreciate that.
00:45:32
Speaker
Are there any, and is are there any final thoughts, any, any shout outs, any things that you want to leave the listeners with before we close out here? Yes.
00:45:44
Speaker
Thank you for that invitation and all those kind words. My goodness. um Hearing that just really, really makes my day, you know, it's already sunshiny here, but now I'm like really feeling it. Yeah.
00:45:55
Speaker
a um Yeah, I would like to just thank everyone who's been alongside me for this journey, you know, like my friends who are part of my books journey.
00:46:06
Speaker
Angel Fuzz, Anna Jack Jackson did amazing art. All the people who have played with my children so that I could write too long a list to name everyone.
00:46:17
Speaker
um You know, my mother, of course, my husband. um And i would also like to shout out, like, I don't think that art is enough. I think that you have to put action behind your art.
00:46:32
Speaker
And so in that sense, I really want to shout out some organizations like ah workshops for Gaza. They are trying to take knowledge sharing out of the university and spread it amongst the people. And so it's people from all disciplines, all walks of life, just sharing their knowledge and all funds from those classes go directly to people in Gaza who need assistance.
00:46:56
Speaker
And Crips for eSIMS provides a way for the people on the ground to still share their stories despite the the lack of, you know, technology and um communication services that are just down during a genocide.
00:47:14
Speaker
um So I just really invite people, if you are inspired by what I share, share. to to do something to act.
00:47:25
Speaker
You know, the, the work that I put into the world is not just for someone to sit on their couch and read a book and put it down and go read another book. Like, please be instigated toward action.
00:47:35
Speaker
And i don't mean call your representatives. I don't mean go out and vote because the people we are voting for are enabling this to happen. I mean, go do something in your community and be part of the ecosystem where you live and consider your ecosystem to be the larger world.
00:47:50
Speaker
Wow, that is powerful. That is powerful. I love going beyond voting because that that is that is less than the tip of the iceberg. That's a rock that's sitting on the iceberg, and um that's powerful.
00:48:06
Speaker
Fatima, how can people connect with you, contact you, read your works, um or be inspired by you? Thank you. I am Fatima writing doula on social media.
00:48:21
Speaker
i have a website. If you search me up, I'll be right there. And i am putting on a workshop with workshops for Gaza on October 30th, which is my birthday. So it's how I'm celebrating by sharing my love for the queen of love songs, like the queen, but also abolish the monarchy.
00:48:41
Speaker
But Sade is the queen. So the workshop is called Writing Toward Collective Kinship Through Sade Songs, October 30th. And I hope that your listeners, some of them can join us for that. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you. appreciate your time. I appreciate the the passion that you have for what you do.
00:49:01
Speaker
um With all the things that you could be doing and all the places you could be, I appreciate you being here and me embracing vulnerability. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining us in another episode of Vulnerability Muscle.
00:49:14
Speaker
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00:49:28
Speaker
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00:49:44
Speaker
Visit vulnerabilitymuscle.com for additional resources and support. And remember, embracing vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. It is the source of your greatest strength.
00:49:55
Speaker
Sometimes it's uncomfortable. but most workouts are. So keep flexing that vulnerability muscle.