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Cancel or Enable? Why Boundaries are Essential
52 Plays1 year ago
Need help deciding whether to cancel or continue a relationship? In this episode, Sequins Camille Gooding, my spiritual Big Sis, and I discuss the importance of boundaries. Yes, we go there. In this honest and real conversation, we share the benefits, challenges, and lessons learned with setting, respecting, and owning our boundaries. So, whether you have experience setting boundaries or trying to set them for the first time, there is something here for you!
If you have questions or would like to submit topics to discuss on the podcast, please get in touch with me at unitednotuniform@gmail.com!
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Transcript
Podcast Mission Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
You are listening to the United Not Uniform podcast. I am your host, Crystal. The purpose of this podcast is to have intentional spaces that allow and celebrate difference. Difference of opinion, experience, and more. In this podcast, we will be able to truly hear and see one another, even when we disagree.
00:00:19
Speaker
What would it look
Vision of Connection and Growth
00:00:20
Speaker
like if we were truly able to see one another? To set aside fear, insecurity, and doubt? To be willing to embrace the silence and let words carry their full weight? If that sounds fun, or at least a tiny bit interesting, you are in the right place. Together, we will grow as we discuss different topics, hear other stories, and have a few laughs along the way.
00:00:44
Speaker
Welcome to United Not Uniform, where there is more than enough space for us to be seen and to see others. Period.
Introducing Camille and Community Building
00:00:53
Speaker
So this is a very special episode. I am here with my spiritual big say. So how long have we known each other? So, um, should I introduce myself? Yes, you should. Okay, okay, okay. So, hey everyone.
00:01:09
Speaker
I'm like so blushing right now just to see my spiritual little sis. Oh my goodness. Just the right thing. But the lovely voice that you are hearing is none other than C. Quince Camille Goodie.
00:01:27
Speaker
And gosh, I feel like we've known each other going on like eight years. Going on like eight years. I feel like we met in January of 2017.
Faith, Vulnerability, and Scripture
00:01:39
Speaker
You joined my small group and my tiny
00:01:43
Speaker
two bedroom apartment. Girl, you couldn't tell me back then I wasn't doing a bid, okay? That was like the nicest place that I had ever lived in. And if you are from the DMV, I'm talking about none other than the Cloisters on Michigan Avenue, okay? You can tell I've come from the gutter. And that was like living in luxury.
00:02:01
Speaker
But we used to like cram in my tiny living room with like 15 women. Yes we did. To just go deep, share life, and just learn how to be
00:02:14
Speaker
Not better, but learn how to be ourselves in our own skin, in our own hair, in all facets of society while loving Christ. Yeah, I remember.
Boundaries in Christian Community
00:02:28
Speaker
So I was still kind of testing out this faith thing. I had left the church and I was coming back.
00:02:34
Speaker
And I remember joining a group and I was like, Oh my gosh, look at these women on fire for God. Like, okay. But then we started doing a series called, uh, learning to live. And that was all about like, okay, not only are we talking about how much we love Jesus and going deeper in God's word, but we're also talking about our own stories. And I was like, Ooh, I signed up for that.
00:02:57
Speaker
And I always admired how you were willing to wrestle with us, but you always pointed us back to scripture. I mean, we knew that pink Bible. We had that.
00:03:13
Speaker
We knew when that pink Bible came out we were gonna get some answers but it was just such a safe space to Really explore the depths of our faith while also experiencing such a loving and beautiful community So you stewarded that and I benefited from it. So thank you so so much guys. She's amazing So true so true
00:03:38
Speaker
So today we're talking about boundaries. Yes. Ooh, that's a big sigh. Yeah, it's a big sigh. I mean, trust me, I am just so honored that you would choose me to guest talk on this. And I just want to say for the record, I am by no means like an expert on boundaries. This is all just things that I have learned through my own story, through therapy, through many trials and fails. But
00:04:07
Speaker
honestly for me boundaries are super easy and super difficult at the same time so i'd love to just share with you all how i hold the two together yeah while trying to care for myself see now y'all doesn't she sound like an expert
00:04:28
Speaker
But thank you for being willing to share on a topic that, honestly, within the Christian community, we don't really talk about a lot. And if we do, it's not necessarily in the best way, right? So to get us started, how would you define boundaries?
00:04:46
Speaker
Ah, so I'm going to say something. I hope the listeners stick with me, but my definition of boundaries is selfishness. A healthy selfishness for yourself. That means whatever situation you are in, whatever dynamic, whether it is family
00:05:15
Speaker
work, church, okay? Friends, you are selfishly considering what makes you feel good, what doesn't make you feel good, and living in the space of whatever this is, it should just bring me peace.
Boundaries in Work and Personal Life
00:05:32
Speaker
If it doesn't bring me peace, you can see or hear my two feet walking away. Yeah, yeah.
00:05:38
Speaker
What do you think about that? Hey, we stuck with you. Okay. Yeah, we stuck with you. Yeah, so I am reading a book by Lisa Turquoise called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And she uses different language, but gets at the same point. Okay. So there's something about, oftentimes when we think of boundaries, we think of them as, oh, we are giving up or we're like, it's unchristian and we're gonna kind of get into that later, right? Yeah. But something that she said in that book,
00:06:10
Speaker
piggybacks onto what you shared, boundaries are set in place to teach others how to better love you and to allow you to better love others. I agree, yes. And so there is a little bit of selfishness that needs to happen. Absolutely. Because it almost seems like in the, I don't know, the idea of loving ourselves has been warped in some way that you're not supposed to also care for yourself, right?
00:06:30
Speaker
really kind of, I think...
00:06:40
Speaker
And while yes, in an age and a time where it's all about living your best life and all those different things, like I can understand why and in a lot of spaces there's a need to kind of push back against that narrative, but there's still a calling for us to, if we were to love our neighbors as ourselves, we have to learn how to love ourselves. Oh no. Preach minutes of Christo. Preach. Preach.
00:07:06
Speaker
I like it. So, I mean, I kind of teed up question two, but I'd love us to explore it a little bit more. Why are boundaries important? What I have learned personally, my boundaries are important for my mental health and my wellness.
00:07:29
Speaker
I have a lot of codependent tendency. I am not proud of it. I am working through it. I find therapy has really helped me. And also being a member of Al-Anon, if you're not sure what Al-Anon is, Al-Anon is pretty much an organization for friends and family of those who have alcoholics in their lives.
00:07:56
Speaker
And I just really learned a lot about myself. So I feel like I'm getting a little off task. No. Okay. Okay. Share what you want to share. Okay. And thank you for being so open. Oh yeah. Absolutely. I mean, listen, I think everybody
00:08:13
Speaker
especially after like, of course the pandemic. I feel like that's like such a buzzword, but I feel like we all need mental health support. Absolutely. So I'm a strong proponent of mental health support. So I don't want to steer too far away from your question though. So repeat it again. Sure.
00:08:32
Speaker
Why are boundaries important? So boundaries are important because I really like what you shared based on Lisa's definition and it's kind of the direction that I was trying to go, but I cannot articulate it as well as she and you, but it really allows me to be loved in a healthy way and love others in a healthy way. And so boundaries to me are, or why are they important?
00:09:01
Speaker
I just have to protect my peace, you know, at the end of the day, like whether it's work, like there's this saying at work, I'm the keeper of the knowledge for certain things.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I really honestly, I do not mind if a colleague reaches out to me at any time of day or night to ask a question, right? And like some people might look at that as an unhealthy boundary. But for example, last week when I went out of town for the football game to Philadelphia, I let people know, hey, I know the grade book window is open. If you need support with grades, I'm available Friday. I'm available Saturday.
00:09:41
Speaker
but i'm not available sunday so if you reach out to me on sunday i will not answer my phone will be on do not disturb all day yes my phone was on do not disturb all day and i will check my emails saturday maybe if i feel like it because i don't have to but i'll check the monday morning and then i'll respond to accordingly and i think
00:10:03
Speaker
That is a boundary that I'm okay with, right? Like, because you know me, I'ma show up for everyone. I wanna be a team player, I wanna support. I mean, you give 110 plus 110, like I'm doing terrible math right now. That's fine. But you are the person that like, if you, like she's the friend that if you were down on your luck, it doesn't matter where you are, she's coming. I'm coming. Yeah. Oh yeah, I'ma find you, I'm coming. Like Liam Neeson, okay? I'm coming, I have a very particular set of skills. She's taking all that now.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yes, but no, no, no, no, no. So on a
Technology's Impact on Boundaries
00:10:36
Speaker
serious note, I think boundaries are so important because when I am able to say this is my line in the sand and stick to it, it actually boosts my self-esteem. Especially if someone keeps like kicking at that line, kicking at that boundary, kicking at that wall. The wall is up to protect me.
00:11:00
Speaker
And there are some people that we just cannot get away from in our lives, right? Whether it's parents, whether it's people at work. You're not always able to just ex-communicado someone, right? They're just in your lives. So what are the healthy boundaries that you can set up? Maybe with this person, because they are an immediate member of your family,
00:11:26
Speaker
and you do have to converse with them, or you do have to see them, maybe you're just keeping it light. Oh, this is a TV show that I know we have in common. This is how the weather is where I live, how's the weather where you're living, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to get into the nitty gritty of my day, because that might give you some power over me that I don't want you to have, because you may abuse it. You know?
00:11:51
Speaker
okay what are you thinking? no so when you said that like i swear like i feel like you're like reading my mind so i had just read a part in the book where very similar what you're saying it's like there's a
00:12:06
Speaker
not a tension, but a balance that needs to take place. So in Lisa's book, she talks about how it's responsibility and access are the two, right? And so similar to what you said, if someone is repeatedly showing that they are not responsible for the level of access that you're giving them, you have to adjust based on that.
00:12:34
Speaker
And I love what you're saying because again, there are people, especially in this cancel culture, right? There are people who are going to just be in our lives, right? Yeah. And it's not as, it's not like you're enabling behavior. You're still protecting yourself, but by finding, okay, if you can only handle so much, I'm basing that level of access based on where you're at.
00:12:59
Speaker
And that allows me to feel whole and seen and protected while also in my best way trying to honor the other person. I think that is a very good example. I agree, I agree, absolutely. I feel like me and Lisa, we might need to have some coffee or something. Hey, she's amazing. I love her. Buy the book, buy the book. Okay, can I shift gears for a second to talk about
00:13:25
Speaker
some other boundaries that I put in place. So boundaries really don't always have to be amongst people. Boundaries can be amongst sort of abstract things as well. So for example, social media, right? Like I am... I lost a baby, you know, years ago. I was married at one point. We had a baby. The baby was born still. His name is Judah.
00:13:54
Speaker
Okay, now something I noticed was there was a time when I needed the comfort of other women who have been in my situation and sort of like the memes and the encouraging words of women who have lost still, you know, who have had stillbirths or miscarriages. But then there came a point where it was just like,
00:14:16
Speaker
Actually, I think this is harming me and hurting me more than helping me. I think it's kind of keeping me in this low vibration, as people say, or this low emotional state. And so I really had to reevaluate
00:14:34
Speaker
what is my feed on social media, right? Like I'm not giving social media up already, no, I'm not, I'm not, okay, sorry. I'm not giving it up. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not gonna say I need it, that's what I was about to say. I want it, I like it, but I had to like remove myself from following certain pages, right? And then the other day, I'm like, why do I keep looking at certain pages and certain things? Like what is this?
00:15:03
Speaker
What are these messages giving my brain? It's not helping me feel good about myself. It's not helping me feel positive. It's impacting my self-esteem. So I literally took a lot of time and I went through every single like page or channel, whatever they're called. I'm an elder millennial y'all. Whatever they're called on Instagram. I went through every single account that I'm following and like,
00:15:26
Speaker
Nope. This does not bring me peace. This does not bring me joy. Unfollow. Unfollow. Unfollow. And I was just a boundary that I had to set for myself because the way that I use social media, I just want to laugh. I just want to send memes to my friends, funny stuff, laugh, teacher related stuff, and maybe like how to make fresh juice, you know? Like that's
Managing Challenging Relationships
00:15:47
Speaker
it. I'm good. I don't need anything else.
00:15:49
Speaker
Another boundary is music. What am I listening to? How does it impact my mood? What thoughts does it give me? What dreams does it give me? Is this music bringing honor and glory to God? I still struggle with that. I'm not perfect. I'm like Paul. I want to do
00:16:13
Speaker
what I know was right but I struggle with that and I end up doing wrong okay don't quote me on that but I'm sure you know the scripture so so I just I'm just sharing this to say boundaries don't always have to be with people but they can and should also be with things that are intangible
00:16:33
Speaker
Because those two impact your peace your self-esteem your mood your mental health and your overall wellness Oh, that's so good. Thank you made that comment I was like, oh we might have to change the pit playlist that we used to drive because let me tell you I'm listening. Okay
00:16:49
Speaker
Now y'all, I'm gonna be real with y'all for a little bit. Okay, keep it a honey, keep it a honey. Sometimes Minister Crystal. She like listening to the drop of love? I mean sometimes, right? Okay, all right. But like, I notice there's a difference in how I drive. Yeah. Depending on what I'm listening to. Yeah, yeah. Right? That's such a good point. That is such a good point. When I was driving to church this morning, I was like, just don't even put the rate. Just don't even. Just don't even.
00:17:12
Speaker
Don't even play no music. Just don't even play no music. Just say in the holy sacred Christ thing that you woke up in, don't give the devil an inch. I say that all the time. Especially when it comes to boundaries where we've had to shut the door. Like I've had to shut the door on my ex-husband. I had to block him. He is ex-communicado, right?
00:17:38
Speaker
And someone just asked me yesterday, believe it or not, is my ex-husband still blocked? And I'm like, yes. Once we've reached that point in the boundaries and the relationship, that's it. We can't come back to it, especially if you don't have a purpose in my life anymore. And so if he doesn't have a purpose in my life anymore, if I know it is not healthy for myself to communicate with you, to see you,
00:18:07
Speaker
Yes, you are ex-communicado. Shout out to John Wick. I'm sorry. I love that movie. That's why you're saying that. But on a serious note, I'm never taking that block off because I don't know if that man is still trying to reach me. I don't know if that man is still trying to call me or text me or whatever. I don't need to know. I'm not giving the devil a millimeter. You hear me? I do.
00:18:33
Speaker
Do you hear me? I hear you. In so many things, when we set firm boundaries, you have to hold the line. You have to, because if you give the enemy one millimeter, okay, like do you know how thin a millimeter is? Yeah. He can get in there. If a mouse can squeeze through the hole the size of a dime, what do you think
00:19:02
Speaker
the devil can do with a millimeter, okay? Come on now. Come on. Come on, add his flunkies. It's not just him too. We forget about the devil's flunkies. Yes, his fallen angels. Now, I don't know if I'm supposed to be preaching, okay? I don't know if I'm supposed to be on this show box. I don't know, but you just stir something up in my soul and the people need to know you have to be consistent.
00:19:27
Speaker
with your boundaries if you are not consistent you are not setting the clear message to the person receiving the boundary and they're just gonna think oh it's a flim flam you know what i mean you have to hold a lot i am on strike for something right now in my life and the person who i'm on strike with
00:19:44
Speaker
He knows it. And I promise you, I'm gonna strike until the terms and conditions of that situation are renegotiated and I feel safe. And then I will lift the strike and continue business as usual. But until then, I'm gonna hold the line. Yeah, come on now. I'm gonna hold.
00:20:06
Speaker
the line. Thank you. And we're going to get into some of the difficulties and the challenges with that, right? No, but it's so true. I do think that we underestimate the way in which
00:20:21
Speaker
And I love how you pointed out it's not just people that we have to set boundaries with. Yes. Right? And be honest about the things that influence us. In Seminary, we had this assignment where they were trying to make the argument of whether technology was good or bad, right? I know, I know. It's neither good nor bad is how we use it. Right, right, exactly. But what was also really interesting about one of the videos that we watched is that it pointed out that
00:20:46
Speaker
what we're seeing, like the negative, the dark side of technology is just amplifying the dark side of humanity. Exactly. Right? Exactly. Right? Exactly.
00:20:57
Speaker
And so it's so important that we are just honest with ourselves and it takes that level of awareness, right? A level of awareness of what I can do and what I can't. And it's so frustrating, I'm gonna be real honest, when other people could do certain things and you can't, how like your boundaries are like individualized for you. Yes, yes. How do you think I feel about that with alcohol, right?
00:21:23
Speaker
Like a lot of people who are like in my close circle, they know I don't drink alcohol, right? I haven't partaken in spirits in like 15 years, but I could still go out
00:21:40
Speaker
And I see people, they drink, they have a good time, they do it safely, they do it consciously. And sometimes I be like, dang, I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish, but that's not for me. That's something that I've had to hold the line on and keep a firm, strict boundary because who knows which way it'll go if I decide to re-engage, you know what I mean? And it's really hard.
00:22:06
Speaker
But I hear you when you say, like, there are certain things that you have to disengage from or free yourself from that other people can engage with and do it healthily and happily, and you're just like, dang, you know? Right! Ugh!
00:22:22
Speaker
Right, right, right, right. I do kind of want to jump to, because I do think like when we're talking about the importance of boundaries, when we're talking about how they are individualized for you, right? I think we've kind of already talked a little bit about this, but I want to go a little bit deeper and what is the hardest part about boundaries? Okay.
00:22:49
Speaker
The hardest part of boundaries, I think is twofold. I think the first thing is consistency. And then I think the other thing that is hard is outside influences. So I'm going to talk about the outside influences and then I'll go back to consistency.
00:23:10
Speaker
So just how we were talking about like say for example with me and drinking, you know, I go on vacation. I go to Cancun. I love Cancun. I've been to Cancun like four times, okay? I'm actually trying to go back there for my birthday. Shout out if you want to help with my birthday fun to Cancun. Take a donation. Yes, take a donation. I give you my cash app. Oh my gosh.
00:23:33
Speaker
Do you know how many times people are like, oh, you'll be fine. I'm here with you. Or you'll be fine. I'll watch. Or you'll be fine. You're not home. You know, what happens on vacation stays on vacation. Or just don't care that this is a boundary that I have set for myself. And I don't feel like I should always have to tell a stranger whether it is the waiter, the bartender, or just a random person
00:24:00
Speaker
sitting at the bar telling me, oh, you need to put some tequila in that zero proof tequila sunrise or whatever. Cause I love a virgin tequila sunrise. I love that. And I will get down on a Shirley Temple a lot. I do know about that one. Yes. Okay. But I don't feel like I should have to explain to this person. You don't know how my life will spiral out of control. I shouldn't have to lie and say that I am pregnant for you not to give me an alcoholic drink because the last time I went to Cancun that kept happening.
00:24:29
Speaker
I would ask for a non-alcoholic drink and they would still put alcohol in it and think it was funny. That's very scary. So it's almost like I've set this boundary for myself, but because I have to receive something from someone else,
00:24:46
Speaker
That component is out of my locus of control So I'm already tempted by being in a space where there is alcohol Then I'm tempted because I can either smell the alcohol. No one's gonna know you know what I mean No, the woman that I was with my best friend. She wouldn't have known I could have just you know hidden it that's hard that's hard, but because You have to
00:25:13
Speaker
I don't want to get preachy, but when you have really set a clear and true boundary for yourself, especially one that you know has come from none other than God the Father, you can only then lean on Him in order to keep that boundary
00:25:31
Speaker
happening. I don't want to say keep the boundary up because sometimes a boundary is being down. It depends on how you look at it or what the situation is. But I would have to say a lot of times it's the outside influence for some of the boundaries that I have, even with my home. I don't allow alcohol in my home. If I did, I would probably have game nights
00:25:58
Speaker
probably every other week. Cause I love hosting, I love cooking, I love playing games. I think I have a great backyard. You know what I mean? Thank you. So I would love to just have people over, but unfortunately a lot of people want to be able to imbibe while they're having fun. And I just can't, I can't go down that path. That is not a boundary that I'm ready to test yet.
00:26:23
Speaker
Yeah. It is not a boundary that God has said I can change yet.
Boundaries in Faith and Identity
00:26:29
Speaker
And so I need to hold the line and find other creative ways to still make these social events happen. Right. And then the second part is it's just the consistency. I think this one becomes a lot harder when it comes to like
00:26:45
Speaker
the movies we watch, the music we listen to, what we look at on social media, and then the boundaries that we set up with family and friends, you know? I think if you're not consistent, again, it kind of gives the other person the idea, like, oh, well, she doesn't really mean it, so she's not gonna care if I do X, Y, or Z, as they say in Britain. Oh, my goodness.
00:27:14
Speaker
But, you know, you just have to be consistent. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of self-discipline. It takes a lot of structure for yourself as well. But, you know,
00:27:29
Speaker
off the top of my head, and even with careful thought, it would be the same two things, consistency and outside influence. Yeah, wow. First, I mean, I feel like anyone who's listening to this is saying the same thing. Thank you so much for your transparency and honesty. And also, being so resilient and steadfast, right? Yes. Because,
00:27:55
Speaker
And I think you spoke about it too. It's very hurtful when someone doesn't respect our boundaries. Girl, yes. And especially to laugh or to mock it, right? And so I love what you said about the consistency and
00:28:10
Speaker
What was the other one I'm supposed to be? Oh yeah, outside influences. And outside influences. And then also, especially if you're trying to set boundaries, new boundaries, with people who are not used to it. Girl, new boundaries, come on. They do not like it. Come on. They do not like it. Oh, why you changing up on me? Why you acting brand new? Or what make you think you better than me? Or will you start being good? Or now you want to be with Jesus? Or girl, I done heard it all. I done heard it. You used to be fun.
00:28:40
Speaker
I was like, I'm still fine. I am. I just do some of the same things that I do before because they're not healthy for me. It's not, right. And I feel like even with me, there was a lot of having to relearn this because I know for me, now y'all know judgment, there's a safe space. That's what we're saying. I know for me in the past,
00:28:59
Speaker
if I've experienced hurt, I tend to like cut people off and move, right? Like I like this whole cancel culture, like it doesn't line up because as someone who studies conflict and is embracing and leaning more into that, like honestly being in that program and in that class, I was my own first client.
00:29:17
Speaker
in learning how to, my focus was on intra-personal conflict, so the things that are happening within us, and then interpersonal, right? Because it was almost like a disconnect between what was happening inside of me and how I was acting, right?
00:29:34
Speaker
And so now, you know, and the reason why we're talking about boundaries, again, like we said, it's meant to be honoring towards the other person, but also you. And I feel like, at least for me, especially when I started getting more involved in my faith, I kind of lost the honoring of myself, right? And so I feel like I'm in a lot of ways unlearning some things and relearning other things, you know? Yeah. I love that.
00:30:03
Speaker
I love that. Yeah, yeah. Look, we are all figuring it out. If you guys remember the first episode, I'm talking about perfectionism, so it's a work in progress, for sure. You're fine. You're fine. The new boundaries, though, I think that if I had to pick a third thing that's the hardest about boundaries, I think it would be
00:30:22
Speaker
set a new boundaries because it's kind of like, wait a minute, we've already been doing X, Y, or Z or, you know, what's making you change or, you know, what realization did you come to where you feel that this is necessary? I always feel like that is very difficult to navigate with friends and family.
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, especially if they feel hurt by the new boundary, if there are strong emotions, right? And even in situations where I've had to do that, I've made it very clear that this is for me because I cannot operate, right? I'm not putting the blame or
00:30:58
Speaker
trying to because I do think sometimes we not that people I'm gonna say I hope people don't do it but some people may say like oh I'm doing this boundary out of like spite or anger right that's not what we're talking about I want to just be very clear
00:31:14
Speaker
Again, what we're really focusing on and what we're talking about is how are we finding ways to both honor the other person and ourselves? And a big part of that is also being reminded of our own peace and caring for ourselves in order for us to care and love others, right?
00:31:29
Speaker
And so what I don't want it to be is, oh, all right, listen to this podcast with Sequin and Mr. Crystal, and I don't have to talk to anybody. You're out. I just don't want us walking away with that. Right, right. And it's hard and it's challenging and it's difficult and we're not lying to you. And many like relationships, we're probably still negotiating and figuring out what that should look like.
00:31:55
Speaker
ongoing process. Just talking about that when I was when we were eating dinner about my situation from this previous week that I don't want to bring up into town. You don't have to. But it's almost like okay if I am
00:32:13
Speaker
at odds with a person in my life, I will pray, God, do you want this person in my life? And God will either say yay or nay. And if God says, yes, this is an unhealthy person, but there is a reason, whether it's a season or something else, but there is a reason why this person must remain in your life for right now,
00:32:41
Speaker
That's very hard. I think about Hagar, right? Like how badly was she being mistreated? She had already been arred, violated, had to have a child with someone else's husband and then it's being mistreated and I'm sure her child was being mistreated and she picks up whatever she can and runs off only to be told by the creator of all things. Now I need you to run that back. I need you to go back and
00:33:11
Speaker
stay in that oppression. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
00:33:19
Speaker
It's the moment for me. Like, I'm sure there was nothing but pure silence on her end. I'm sure there was nothing but pure silence on that long walk back. You know what I mean? Because it's not like you can say to the person, well, you got to get your stuff together because I'm back and I can't go nowhere. No, you can't. Everyone else's actions are out of your locus of control.
00:33:47
Speaker
you can only control yourself and how you're handling and managing your emotions and your behavior. But if God says, now I need you to stick this thing out, what do boundaries look like then? How much harder is it to be consistent? How much harder is it with those outside influences? You have no choice but to lean on Him. But I'm telling you, I always think about
00:34:16
Speaker
that woman Hagar. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, that's one of my favorite stories. Not like, not because it's easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very challenging. It's very challenging. It's very challenging. There was a sermon where they talked about how
00:34:39
Speaker
It was a preacher who was a woman of color. She's talking about how she's both Hagar and Sarai, right? And how you have to negotiate. I'll put a link in the description for anybody who wants to leave. But it's very challenging. We might have to do a separate talk on that.
00:34:55
Speaker
But that was a very challenging one in realizing our own limits and limitations. I do want to make another quick caveat. For situations of extreme abuse or things like that, that's not what we're talking about. Thank you for naming that. I just want to make sure.
00:35:12
Speaker
We do not condone domestic violence, any type of abuse, any type of violence. That is not what we are saying. We are saying if God has come down from heaven and spoken to you, if the Holy Spirit has manifested in some way and say, I want you to keep this person in your life for my glory, that's something totally different than you being harmed.
00:35:38
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. Thank you for that, Kevin. This is why you are who you are. This is non-serious because you are always thinking, how is everyone going to receive this? You just do such a great job of caring
00:35:55
Speaker
for everyone, especially those that I would have in my blind spots or someone else at this table might have in their blind spots. Like you remember, and I don't want to say the underdogs or the little people, it's the marginalized. It's someone that can
00:36:11
Speaker
just be hurting and hear something and it be a trigger and you're like, wait, wait, wait. I know how this last statement may come across to at least one person or someone out there. And I just wanna make sure you know. You are loved, you are seen, you are valued, you are cared for. That is a gift. That is a God-given gift. So I'm sorry, y'all. I just wanted to
00:36:40
Speaker
Big baby sister. Oh my goodness. I'm like blushing right now I receive it good learning how to receive compliments. Yeah Thank you big sis. Mm-hmm
00:36:56
Speaker
So we, wow, we are just answering like all these questions. I love it. So we already touched on this question, but I'm interested to see if you have anything else that you would like to add. Okay. What if someone doesn't respect my boundary? Oh, you got to shake the dust off your shoes and keep it stepping. Okay. That's when you really got to cut that person out. Okay. So
00:37:19
Speaker
Again, much more difficult with family, you know, like say it's a child of yours or say it's a parent of yours. Yes, of course, that definitely looks and sounds different, but I find for myself, it is so much easier for me to cut someone out of my life who I don't have a strong relationship with.
00:37:45
Speaker
than someone that I do have a strong relationship with.
Loyalty and Self-Esteem in Boundaries
00:37:49
Speaker
Hence why it took me so long to leave my last church, right? I was having a conversation with my therapist and I was telling her how a friend of mine, someone who I love dearly, okay? I mean, like a brother to me.
00:38:11
Speaker
no longer even acknowledges my existence. And I am crushed by that. I am moving through the grief process on that. But in sharing that situation with my therapist, she said, do you think there are parts of you that are over loyal?
00:38:33
Speaker
And I was like, okay, we got two minutes left in a session. Why would you might drop that on me, okay? Because now I gotta wait two weeks. Two weeks, two weeks. I know, they won't be doing that. And she was like, no, I'm serious. With our time apart, I want you to consider your tendencies of being overly loyal to people.
00:38:57
Speaker
and I sat with it. I did my homework. I was actually able to name in the moment, right? You know, I think my codependent tendencies kind of, ah, what's the word I'm looking for? I feel like they manifest in over being overly loyal. Yeah. Okay. You are one of the most loyal people I know. I mean, yeah, and I have a tattoo on my thigh, right? Loyalty, integrity, honesty. So,
00:39:28
Speaker
But in sitting down and doing the hard work of self-reflection, I know that there were so many times when people weren't loyal to me and left me out in the cold and left me out in the wind. And so I am constantly trying to prove to those who I love
00:39:49
Speaker
and adore and don't want to do life without, hey, hey, I'm loyal, I'm here, I got your back, whatever you need, I'm here for you, I will drop it all, I will be there, I will be there. Okay, and so there's some, there's some hidden trauma in that. But what does it look like for me to say, I can love you and be loyal to you,
00:40:15
Speaker
What is the line? Where does the unhealthiness start? So I think that is the work that I am working on doing now. I don't think that I have been put in a position yet where I've had to test this. I go back on Wednesday, so we'll see. We'll see what we talk about. But I just know for myself,
00:40:44
Speaker
It can be really difficult when someone keeps poking and pushing.
00:40:53
Speaker
the boundary that you have created for yourself, and they're not someone that you can just so easily walk away from because of their proximity to you. You know what I mean? I can say continue to hold the line, continue to be consistent, continue to stay your boundaries, and you can also take a break. Take some time off. There are some people in my life where I may only be able to speak to you every other month.
00:41:21
Speaker
And that's the boundary that I have set for myself. And we might be on the phone for 10 minutes or an hour to catch up. But unfortunately, because you have not respected my boundaries previously, this is where we are now. Yeah. It does not mean that I love you less.
00:41:40
Speaker
Right? Right. But I have to protect my peace and myself and love myself more than I'm going to allow you to hurt me. Right. And ultimately you're protecting the relationship then too. Yes. Right. I also love what you said about, you know, boundaries do also come with doing the work internally.
00:42:01
Speaker
And like, I mean, honestly, like, I swear our counselors, our therapists, be calling us out. Mine doesn't even let me try. I try. I try. And she just sees right through me.
00:42:17
Speaker
But there's just something about, so like, for instance, you shared about being over loyal, right? For me, it was helping, right? So for me growing up, you know, I was always on the outside. I was always excluded from a lot of things. So to me, I wanted to show that I had valued, so I wouldn't be abandoned, so I wouldn't be rejected, right?
00:42:38
Speaker
Loving family like that like my family came around me all this kind of things But it's so amazing how it if you were feeling Rejection or abandonment in one place how that can manifest in so many other areas of your life
00:42:53
Speaker
Right? Yes, yes, yes. So that ties with what we've been saying already about boundaries. It's not just, I'm gonna set this boundary out of spite. It's really a heart posture in, okay, it's not healthy for me. It's probably not healthy for the other person. Exactly. What's going on here? And based on that knowledge, like, let me set this boundary so I can explore and figure out what's going on and renegotiate in a way that the relationship can actually work for both of us. Right? And it's like, I just,
00:43:23
Speaker
I'm just gonna say, I just feel the urge to say we need to give ourselves permission to set those boundaries. We need to give ourselves permission to really address some of the, like have that reflection like you said.
00:43:38
Speaker
Intra conflict like I can't help it. I'd like that's just kind of my jam But like really thinking about what's going on inside of us, right? I know that for me The that spirit of rejection and abandonment I'm not claiming it, but I know if I'm in an environment Whether that brings up old triggers, I feel very stressed. I haven't been taking care of myself physically It's very easy for me to go back into that place, right? and so
00:44:06
Speaker
seeing some of those boundaries, like the boundaries that we set, not only for others, but also for ourselves, really allows us to better understand the cycle in which we are moving through and how to best make sure that we are also being supported and cared for so we don't end up passing on the same trauma, the same pain onto others. We don't want to do that. Exactly. Break the generational curses. Come on now. All of that. Yep. It begins with me. I love it. I love it. I love it.
00:44:35
Speaker
So for this next question, I wanted to ask, how has setting boundaries improved your life? You know what? I've been more happy, honestly.
00:44:50
Speaker
Yes, I am a workaholic. I too have suffered from perfectionism. I feel like now I just be like, girl, just get it done. Cause I'm being too old and I'm tired. Oh my gosh. No, to be serious though, to be serious. Um, like previously work, for example, I would
00:45:10
Speaker
just go, go, go, go, go, not care for myself, not rest, whatever needed to get done, I would just do, I really did not have healthy boundaries at all. And I think the thing that has changed is me understanding the need to have this work-life balance, which has created a boundary, but it's also like, you know what?
00:45:37
Speaker
I gave them my all today. I did everything that absolutely needed to get done. Were there other things that I could have worked on? Absolutely. But if I continue with this pace, it is going to make me resent the work, resent myself, and have a low mental health state. So I am going to create this boundary. I might just not take my lap.
00:46:02
Speaker
top home today. And I might just come home and wash up and get in the bed and relax and rest my lady bones. Okay. So that, that is something that I have done when it comes to people. I don't feel the weight of, am I going to be hurt? Are they going to disrespect me?
00:46:24
Speaker
or is something bad going to happen? Like just thinking about my ex-husband, thinking about some other people that are really close in my life. I feel like I am, again, here's that word, selfish, but I feel like I am selfishly, healthily putting myself first. So I feel better about myself. I have a positive mental health. I have a positive self-esteem because when I allow certain things and certain people in,
00:46:51
Speaker
My mental health was lower. My self-esteem was lower. So the balance is, well, I like who I am and how I am with these boundaries in place. I'm going to keep them in place because I feel overall I am a better and more healthy person. So I'm going to work on being consistent. I'm going to work on dealing with the outside influences and just stick to my guns and hold the line.
00:47:17
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, I like who I am with these boundaries and that's really all that matters Yeah, that's really all that matters. That's good. I know. Yeah, I don't know about y'all who are listening But you might be feeling a little convicted that you might need to set some boundaries. I mean just the the piece that comes with it and again, I like
00:47:38
Speaker
It's not gonna be perfect, right? Like there are situations I know for me where I have set boundaries and I haven't been persistent, right? It doesn't mean that the whole boundary is ruined, right? But I do think, and I love how you phrased it, you're basing it on
00:47:54
Speaker
How am I feeling because of these boundaries being in place, right? Am I in a place that is more healthy spiritually, physically, emotionally? Am I getting rest in the way that I need? Am I seeing fruit in my relationships because of these boundaries that I'm setting, right?
00:48:10
Speaker
And I know for me, being someone who often will base value, well, hold on, let me rephrase that, because we gotta be careful over the words we speak over ourselves now. As someone who used to put their identity in their performance. Come on now, we gotta be careful with our words. My counselor gets on me for that too. She probably is gonna be laughing when she hears this.
Performance, Self-Worth, and Biblical Boundaries
00:48:36
Speaker
It's so easy, especially if performance had been where I had placed my identity, to be only thinking about, okay, well, what can I do to prove my value, to prove my worth? It was never something I could really achieve. It was always something that was out of reach. And if someone didn't give me credit for my performance, then I'm like, they think I'm garbage.
00:49:00
Speaker
Exactly! Oh my gosh! I have been there! And it's just like, it's like a full like, like a full pivot, right? Yes. And there's something about, and now that might be a separate podcast as well too. See, we keep coming up with all these different ideas. I love it. I'm coming back y'all, I'm coming back.
00:49:17
Speaker
But it's just there's something about having to surrender. It does require a sense of surrender, right? Surrender. Yeah? Yes. That's what it is. Yes. Because it's like we want to believe that we can do all these things, that we can be all things to all people, that the things that others do don't hurt us. And that's not true. And it's not possible. And if we believe the lie that it's not meant to hurt us, that we live with hardened hearts, we live
00:49:45
Speaker
to protect ourselves from ever being hurt. We also live without really experiencing joy, fullness, happiness, joy, all these other things. And so we are meant to have a heart of flesh, not of stone. But in order to guard your heart requires like careful stewardship, which are boundaries.
00:50:08
Speaker
I agree. Yeah. I agree. I love it. I love it. I love it. So I wanted to, we kind of talked about it a little bit, but I kind of wanted us to talk about this question about, um, sometimes I get from other people, are boundaries biblical?
00:50:25
Speaker
Yes, who says they aren't? And they would like, what is their basis? Help me out. I will help you the best I can. Actually, let me start with my own experience.
00:50:45
Speaker
When you, I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it. Okay, take your time, because this is mind-boggling. I know. Well, because oftentimes when you think about, okay, how Christ lived, right? We want to gloss over the part about how, you know, there were moments where Jesus moved away from the crowd at the end of the quiet time and he prayed, or like even with like who he invested in, like the 12 disciples, right? Yes, yes. Sometimes we
00:51:07
Speaker
overstepped, like we missed that, and it's this idea that you were supposed to be doing all these things for Jesus, right? Now this is a larger conversation that I honestly think we're going to need to talk about again in another one. This idea that we need to do, because like you'll notice that it's still tied with this idea and this narrative that I still have to prove my worth, that I still have to perform in a way that Jesus will love me, which is not biblical, right? But even when we think about
00:51:38
Speaker
even when we think about being obedient to God, right? It's all coming from a place of love that is rooted in deep and intimate relationship. And just as God, I mean, if you look at all the biblical stories about the things that God could be around and the things that he couldn't, like our God is holy.
00:51:57
Speaker
He needed to be with holy places, right? And we're talking about the Old Testament, right? And all of the things that the Israelites had to do in order for God to be dwelling with them, right? And so the boundaries in themselves are not bad, right? And God, in a very beautiful way, demonstrates a lot of that to us in the Old Testament. And so, I don't know, it's just like there's this disconnect between
00:52:24
Speaker
if you're sitting up a boundary, you're not being Christian in embracing and loving your neighbor. But I think it exposes a larger question of, do we really understand what it means to truly love our neighbor as ourselves? Because that's a part of it, right? And of course, loving our God with all our soul and mind and heart. But then the other side of it
00:52:48
Speaker
is really on, I do think identity is also at the core of it, right? If we are used to sacrificing ourselves for others, right? And I wanna use the word sacrifice very carefully because I don't want it to seem like, oh, it's only about me and I never have to think about other people. That's not what we're saying either. But there are some people, I'm gonna use myself as an example,
00:53:13
Speaker
There are some times where I was so willing to be helpful to the other person that it was detrimental to me. Now I was sacrificing, but my motives were not like forgot. My motives were out of pride, right? My motives may have been out of control. And so I think that's what's so important about when we're engaging with boundaries is that it's both a discerning
00:53:42
Speaker
requirement, discerning and talking to God, but there's also a heart posture check that needs to happen. You have something to say somewhere. Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, yes, I'm like, I'm chomping at the bit, but I was very invested in what you were saying, and I didn't want you to think that. I did pull up Genesis 1 to talk about boundaries. Yeah, come on, come on, come on. But I just find it mind boggling that someone can believe that boundaries are not
00:54:11
Speaker
Biblical right if we go to Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth I love the home and Christian Standard Bible So that is the version that I'm reading from the Bible app shout out to you version Bible app I'm gonna jump to verse 3 then God said let there be light and there was light God saw that the light was good and God separated the light from the darkness and
00:54:34
Speaker
God called the light day and he called the darkness night. That's a boundary. That's a boundary. Even when he formed the atmosphere, that's a boundary. The water from the land. That's a boundary. The continents, the land in and of itself, that's a boundary. But the biggest boundary that he created was
00:54:59
Speaker
do not eat from this tree of knowledge, right? That was a boundary and they broke the boundary, therefore we have sinned. He also said, you should work six days and you should rest on the seventh day. That is a boundary that he has set that we practice a holy Sabbath. I mean,
00:55:25
Speaker
Yes and you were bringing up you know about the Israelites and you know they they had tons of boundaries right look at the the Book of Leviticus all the Levitical laws they got a lot of boundaries and then some people say well
00:55:38
Speaker
You only need to focus on the New Testament because that's where Jesus is. Jesus even had boundaries. You talked about how he would go off in the boat. Jesus' boundary was, I'm serving God first. I am a servant. I'm serving God first. Homeboy went into the wilderness for 40 days and didn't eat nothing. That is a boundary that he set. I am doing this. I can't imagine
00:56:04
Speaker
Not eating nothing for four days. Sometimes it'd be hard for four hours, okay? Eating or drinking. And my man did it for 40 days. That's a boundary. Paul. Paul gave us boundaries to live as Christ would like us to live. How to conduct ourselves in church. How to be good ministers. How to be good pastors. How to love one another. Paul set boundaries for us.
00:56:29
Speaker
There are boundaries set for our sexuality, how we are to engage with one another. There are boundaries set for how we are to love one another. We could go back to the Old Testament and look at the Ten Commandments. Those are boundaries set. Boundaries are biblical because without them we are heathens. Without boundaries, like true boundaries. I'm not talking about, oh, um,
00:56:54
Speaker
you know, just let me not have a boy over my house and we're alone type boundaries. But I mean, in essence, the condition of boundaries that were given to us by God were to keep us holy and sanctified and in a right relationship with him. So yes, boundaries are biblical and I just find it astonishing that someone could try to argue the opposite.
00:57:25
Speaker
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. The math ain't mathin' for me, okay? The math ain't mathin' for me. You can tell it was a bit hard for me to argue the other side because I also. Yeah, I was like, that ain't even making sense. Let's just, my turn. No shade, my turn. Girl, I done brought you from the opening words to the, to Paul, back to Genesis, to the Levitical laws, to the Ten Commandments. Come on, man, get out of here.
00:57:54
Speaker
In no way! Yeah, but there are people who are teaching people that for you to, it's almost as if they are linking boundaries with cancel culture.
00:58:09
Speaker
They're entirely different. Yeah, they're entirely different. I agree with you, but there's something that is happening. I don't know whether it's identity. I don't know if it's just the spirit of division, but there is something that is happening. That is crazy. It is.
00:58:27
Speaker
but it is not aligning with this idea, because oftentimes I'll even talk about boundaries and people kind of look at me funny. Like, wait, I can have those? I'm like, what are you doing? It almost seems like there's like a miss discipleship opportunity. Well, I hope they listen to our podcast.
00:58:50
Speaker
and learn a little bit. Yeah, okay, all right, all right. I think there was something else that I wanted to say just really quickly. And I just, I hope, let me share it this way. Okay, go ahead. A boundary that I have set for myself, right? For example, when I realized that my closest dear friend
00:59:19
Speaker
no longer chose to be in friendship and community with me because of apparently something I said about him to someone else, so on and so forth.
00:59:31
Speaker
A boundary that I have set for myself when someone says I did something to them or I've offended them or hurt them, search me, O God. And I pray long at heart. God, search my heart, my spirit, my soul. I mean, cut me through to the marrow. If there is any offense in me,
00:59:52
Speaker
reveal it to me and I will confess and I will repent. Am I getting goosebumps? Like God, it is not my desire to hurt one of your children, to offend anyone, especially this person who I hold so dear.
01:00:09
Speaker
That is not my desire. So God, if there's any offense in me, and I even prayed knowingly or unknowingly, consciously or subconsciously, if there is anything in the pit of my heart that I have done wrong, reveal it to me, Holy Spirit, I pray, and I will confess and repent.
01:00:37
Speaker
That is a boundary that I have created for myself so that I am in right relationship with others. That does not mean, though, that everyone is willing to accept your apology. That's a boundary that they may have for themselves, right? But you can go to the father
01:00:55
Speaker
and confess to the father if your brother is not willing to hear you out or maybe a person has passed away whatever the case is you can always go to your father and confess to father god jesus and say you know what i did not even realize i did this please forgive me
01:01:12
Speaker
help me turn from this wickedness or help me turn from this mistake. Like, I kid you not, I don't play with that. Like, even taking communion is like a very, that's a huge boundary for me. If I'm not right or if I know I've been sinning or just living wrong, I'm not going to take communion because that is just such a serious moment for me. So,
01:01:37
Speaker
I just wanted to share that. No, and I appreciate that you say that because there's something, wow, there's so many things that I want to say to what you shared. The word that comes to mind is grace.
01:01:52
Speaker
and accountability. Because I think that there's something, because again, these boundaries are being set within the context of relationship. I mean, as Camille schooled me through the Bible, we are on the same team.
01:02:09
Speaker
All those different references within scriptures about how the boundaries were set, they were set in the context of relationship. And one thing, another thing we don't want people to walk away from this podcast is that they wronged me, I'm setting this boundary, we're done, right? Like we're talking about repeated instances where boundaries are not being respected and things like that, right?
01:02:31
Speaker
I know for me I've had to have someone set a new boundary with me because I was not stewarding the relationship in the way that was healthy for them, right? And it was painful to be on that receiving end of it, but now when I went into future relationships I was very intentional about cherishing and stewarding the relationship in a way that allowed both of us to thrive. But I wanted to lean into that word grace because there is something about
01:02:59
Speaker
because you're in a relationship, there needs to also be a sense of grace. Now, again, we're not saying be inconsistent with boundaries, but that we're setting these boundaries out of love, love of ourselves and love of the other. And the same with accountability. It's big for you to pray that prayer of like, wait, they said, I was like this, I don't receive that.
Boundaries in Spiritual Communities
01:03:19
Speaker
Instead, you're like, look, Lord,
01:03:21
Speaker
I don't know what I did. I don't remember doing or saying anything but search me just in case. Yes and regardless if you were aware of it or you weren't and I feel like there's just something so profound about what you said because oftentimes the first response is well that wasn't my intention.
01:03:39
Speaker
I hate that. I know. Gaslighting apology. I know, I know. That's a gaslighting apology. I know. And so, again, it doesn't matter about your intention. I mean, okay, let me phrase it differently. I do think there are some malicious intentions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, it's the impact, right? Yes. But what's also required, especially being in relationship, is also grace.
01:04:05
Speaker
what was the heart posture, right? What was the, like, in the context of the relationship, like, you will have history, you will know the character of this person, right? Come on now, come on now, that's what I say! You know me baby, why would you believe this? Yeah, yeah, and there's just something about, I mean like, in scripture it tells us of how we are supposed to approach conflict, and like,
01:04:33
Speaker
It's so, it's a gift when someone comes to you and tells you that you have crossed a boundary or you've impacted boundaries. It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt. Cause it's like, what do you mean I'm not perfect? What do you mean I'm the best friend? And it's like, no, but it's a gift in realizing just as you want your boundaries to be respected, you need to learn how to steward others boundaries as well, right? And so there's just something, it's both sides of it.
01:05:02
Speaker
And we just wanted to make sure we talked about that too. Yes. Thank you. Okay, so I think there's a question. We'll touch on it and see if anything comes up. Okay. How to navigate learning how to be part of the spiritual community and boundaries. So the question kind of came in a little weird. I got you. Yeah. This is hard because
01:05:29
Speaker
it really depends on what your role is within that spiritual community. So for example, I have been a part of a small group or life group as a non-leader in a church. I have been a part of a small group as the leader of that small group. And I have been a part of a small group as an elder within a church on the board.
01:06:00
Speaker
Each of those bears different dynamics in which different boundaries must be set. So if I am...
01:06:10
Speaker
a participant in the small group who really doesn't hold any leadership levels, it's a lot easier for me to be more vulnerable, right? And to really share all the things that are going on, to be discipled, cared for, prayed over, poured into. When you become the leader of a spiritual group or other persons,
01:06:35
Speaker
It shifts because you can't be as vulnerable to a certain extent because you don't want any of your character flaws to then be received as some as kind of what we talked about earlier. Oh, well, if Seacless, you know, can do that, then I can do that too because what's good for the goose might not be good for the gander.
01:06:58
Speaker
And there is a scripture that says, do not do anything that causes your brother to stumble. So there was a situation I remember where a small group leader came to me as a small group coach saying there was someone in their small group that was drinking wine and it was making some people feel uncomfortable.
01:07:16
Speaker
I don't think I can handle that, being a leader of that group or a participant in that group if someone else was drinking wine during Bible study because of my own personal relationships with alcohol. It would be too distracting for me. I would probably perseverate over it. So that would be a boundary that I have set for myself. And how would I navigate that?
01:07:38
Speaker
As a leader, I would probably have a one-on-one conversation with that person and say, hey, this is how it can be perceived. I know everybody, not everybody, but some people might need a good glass of wine when they get home from work, and that's fine. But because we don't want to do anything that will cause our brother or sister to stumble, is it possible for you to have that glass prior to coming to small group?
01:08:03
Speaker
As a participant, I would go to my small group leader. I wouldn't have the conversation myself, but I would go to the small group leader and say, hey, this is making me feel uncomfortable. This is why, what can we do about it?
01:08:16
Speaker
Now, the dynamic completely shifts when you are leading at the highest level of the church because now it's not just, is there something I'm doing that could cause my brother or sister to stumble? It turns into, is there something I'm doing that I just shared that could cause someone to be lost to the flock of God?
01:08:39
Speaker
Because now not only am I just representing myself in this small group, I'm representing a church. You know what I mean? And so I can't really share, there has to be boundaries set. I can't share the sins I committed on Friday night in my small group.
01:08:58
Speaker
because they're liable to go back to the board on me and say, she is not living up to whatever it is that she signed. How are you letting this person lead in our church, not knowing I may have repented, I may have slipped up or something to that nature?
01:09:14
Speaker
So the boundary shifts where now I can only share those things that I'm struggling with with the context of those other leaders of the church in a very specific space. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does make sense. It's also, I feel like it's very political too, unfortunately. Yeah. But I also like political, but I also think of it being almost lonely, right?
01:09:37
Speaker
because in each layer you are losing like a yes yes yes and so you know and I've talked to you about this before too about my heart really for again working
01:09:51
Speaker
full time at a local church, right? Really having a heart for those who, and I'm trying to use my words carefully because we're all called to do ministry, whether we are working at the church or not. But also leaders who work at local churches, it can be hard to find those spaces of
01:10:13
Speaker
discipleship of pouring into one another, of kind of having those safe spaces, to be honest about the stumbles, to repent.
01:10:28
Speaker
and to really just have that space that's also supporting you as you grow in your faith. And so I appreciate you sharing that because it does provide, I feel like a little bit more context around for those who especially work at the local church or are leading in some capacity. Cause I know for me, that was like one of the biggest fears I had.
01:10:47
Speaker
in working at a local church, like having been hurt by a church, walking away from the faith entirely, and now coming back and having that level of responsibility, there are new boundaries that have to be in place, not only to protect others, but to also allow me to be in the place where God is calling me to be. Amen. You have to find your
01:11:17
Speaker
You have to find your tribe in the midst of your role within the church, if that makes sense, so that you do have a community to lean on. And depending on what your role is in the church, it just may not be in a small group or life group. And that doesn't mean don't go to a small group or life group, because you can be discipling others. You can be speaking life into others who
01:11:42
Speaker
are struggling and maybe it's a one-on-one conversation with someone where you can open up to them and say, hey, I'm actually struggling with X, Y, and Z and this is how I am battling it through the name of Jesus or in the name of Jesus.
01:11:57
Speaker
You have like, no man is an island. I want to share this for our listeners. No man is an island and we all need spiritual community, no matter what. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that's something important for people to hear, especially if they've been hurt by a church.
01:12:14
Speaker
Don't give up. There is a place for you. There is. And you aren't meant to be by yourself. Now, we got Jesus. We got Holy Spirit. Amen. But we've also been given a gift of community. And so if that's you where you have experienced hurt, where you are wrestling with that, like, you know, we are talking about boundaries, but, you know, I just feel a sense that we need to just take time and space for this. Do not give up. I know for me, it took me years to come back to the church.
01:12:44
Speaker
It took me years to trust people, right? But because I walked through that door, I have my spiritual big sis. I'm now being able to create spaces. You now a minister. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yes, I'm now a minister. I need to lead with that. Big sis ain't even a minister. Oh, stop it.
01:13:08
Speaker
I'm now able to be intentional about the spaces that we create for people to feel seen and to experience and encounter Christ. And God was able to redeem even some of the lowest and hardest parts of my life for me to be able to do this work, right? And so I don't want you to feel like there's anything that you've done that means that you cannot come back to God, come back to the church.
01:13:34
Speaker
Again, there's no sin that will separate us. Come on now. And if you need to start with just one person. Come on now. My email's in the box. Come on now. Because I just sense that there's a lot of hurt. There's a lot of people who are spiritually hungry. Yes. And because of the hurt that they've experienced by people, it's marred their image of God and their willingness to just even try for a relationship.
01:13:59
Speaker
Can I just share my heart for the Lord really quickly? Yes, of course. It kind of ties into what you were just saying. So the work that you're doing is essentially creating space, right? Right. My heart for the Lord is around the fact that all can be redeemed. Yeah. You just said there is no sin that can really separate you from the Lord. Yeah. And I fully...
01:14:26
Speaker
fully believe that. The Lord has actually put on my heart this week to read the book of Hosea. I know, so I'm about to get into that. But it's never too late. You're never too far gone.
01:14:46
Speaker
for the Lord. I mean, I can't even add anything else to it. That's really what it is.
Reflections on Faith and Growth
01:14:53
Speaker
That's really what it is. He still loves you. Yes, yes. And we are not perfect. I mean, I'm sure by now from this podcast, y'all realize that.
01:15:03
Speaker
We're only speaking from what we are learning and what we are navigating and what we've learned in our relationship with Christ, and we are still on learning and learning things, right? And the beautiful thing about what spiritual community, what the church is supposed to be, it's about people
01:15:22
Speaker
all different parts of the body coming together to glorify God and we are to help one another. Amen. Right? We are to elevate others that may be overlooked or not seen. We are to walk with people and to care for people. The goal is not perfection, it's presence and experience with God, right? And so, yeah. Sorry, we had to, we had to like, we gotta take a pulse and talk about that.
01:15:52
Speaker
We had to, we had to. So for my last question sequence, I know I kind of don't want to ask it because I'm having so much fun with us hanging out. Just invite me back to another topic. You got it, you got it. So the last question is, if I could tell my younger self what I know now, what would I tell her?
01:16:21
Speaker
I'm gonna go to my 14 year old self. And I am going to say those three things that you are praying for come to fruition. There were three things that I used to pray for as a 14 year old. And should I share them? Yeah, if you feel comfortable, whatever you feel comfortable with. And I just don't want the audience to think that
01:16:51
Speaker
They're materialistic or whatever, but as a 14-year-old who just felt very isolated, very lonely, you know, without friends, lost, depressed, I used to pray that my dad would be in my life, that I would live in a house one day and that I would have a black lab named Lucky. Now, the dog piece, we just put that on pause because your good sister became allergic to animals with hair when she was 22.
01:17:18
Speaker
So that's okay. But I love other people's dogs. Shout out to Bravo. I love you Bravo. I miss you. But I have the best relationship with my father right now. Such a great relationship. I saw him two weeks ago and just the conversation that we had to see how he's grown and matured over these last 10 plus years, even the last five years.
01:17:44
Speaker
It is just such a sight to behold. And, you know, when I left him, he was borderline in tears. I'm not going to throw him under the bus, but he was, we'll say, quote unquote, borderline in tears, because I was just saying like, I love you. I value you. I care what you think of me. I respect you. You are one of the greatest men that I know. And I mean that like with all my heart.
01:18:10
Speaker
and to live in a house. Now, this house is, there's so many testimonies. There's so many testimonies about this house that we don't have time for. But the fact that I am a single black woman who works in education, who owns her own home in Brooklyn,
01:18:38
Speaker
Washington D.C. That ain't nothing but God. So I think I would tell my 14 year old self.
01:18:46
Speaker
The journey is going to be hard. It's gonna be a lot of battles. You gonna get hurt, you gonna get knocked down, but God is always gonna be right there to pick you up. God is always going to be right there to pick you up. He is your rock, he is your banner, he is your strong tower, he is your refuge, he is your fortress. You are the wings of eagles because that's how strong your holy father is.
01:19:17
Speaker
Just breathe. One foot in front of the other. That's what I would tell my 14-year-old self. And with that...
01:19:28
Speaker
I started to be like, I'm out. Not yet, not yet. I'm like, can I answer? Yes. What would you tell your younger self? And tell us the age too. I want to know the age. So I think I would do age 13. OK. There are a lot of strong emotions in that age. And maybe I'll talk about this a little bit in more detail in another podcast. But growing up in West Virginia, where you were the only other. Mount and mama. Yeah.
01:19:59
Speaker
There are a lot of lies that I believed about myself. And I made tear up and that's okay. Tears are okay. Keep it a hundred. Keep it a hundred. But I would start by saying those lies about you are not true. That you have worth. Yes. That you were beautiful. Yes. Gorgeous. Thank you.
01:20:23
Speaker
that you're smart, that you do not exist just to help others, but that there is something planned for you too. Correct, correct. Not to harm you, not to destroy you. Yeah, and that you will experience love in real relationships.
01:20:42
Speaker
with people who will truly see know and love you. And it took a while sequence for me to experience that. And so I am just overjoyed because I'm like here with my spiritual big sis. It was like one of the most core relationships that I have in my life. But it took a while to get to a place where
01:21:07
Speaker
I was open to receive that love and then now to be able to give it from a place that is just healthy and out of just joy of being in fellowship and relationship, not out of fear of what I was going to lose. That's what I would tell him. I'd also tell her, girl, we need to play and have fun. Are you way too serious? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
01:21:33
Speaker
Oh man, oh man, oh man. Well, thank you so much for being on this podcast. It has been a pleasure. Oh my goodness. For those of you who are joining us, please, please, please share your love, share this conversation with others, especially those who might also be wrestling with boundaries. If you have questions or more things you'd like us to talk about with boundaries, please email me at uniform, wait, United, not uniform,
01:22:00
Speaker
at gmail.com, let's get the email right. I'll include it below. Because we want this, we want to be continuing to have conversations that are relevant to what's interesting to you all. But as we are continuing to learn and grow as we are embracing our boundaries, we love to be able to walk alongside you as well.
01:22:24
Speaker
I just want to say I am so honored that you had me on, that you value my thoughts and opinions and beliefs. I have really enjoyed myself. This has been so much fun. I'm just so proud of you. I'm so proud of you.
01:22:44
Speaker
So thank you to God be the glory. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you all so much for listening to this episode. Remember, there is more than enough space for you to be seen and to see others. We'll see you next time. Amen.