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Episode 4 - Design Lessons w/ Konrad Sauer : 1+1=3?
1.9k Plays8 months ago
We are honored to have our first guest, Konrad Sauer, on the podcast to discuss his views of design with us including: 1 + 1 = 3, the pitfalls of using computers to design, designing without considering execution details, and more.
Konrad is known more broadly in the woodworking field for his exceptionally beautiful and function infill planes (Sauer & Steiner), which he has been crafting by hand for the past 25 years. However, what many people don't know is that he is classically trained in art/design and is incredibly passionate about those topics.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & inappropriate AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon:http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Woodworking is Bullshit'
00:00:18
Speaker
Well, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite irreverent podcast that hurts feelings and asks the difficult questions about design rather than how to do things. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, and I'm joined by my two co-hosts, Eric Curtis and Mary Tsai.
Guest Introduction: Conrad Sauer
00:00:37
Speaker
And today we have a very special guest. It's our first time we've ever had a guest.
00:00:42
Speaker
Conrad Sauer. So Conrad, we want to say first and foremost, we feel honored to have you. You are, in my opinion, and you can sit there and cringe if you like it a little bit, but one of the finest plane makers in the history of the world, because let's face it, how long have planes been made? And
00:01:08
Speaker
how many people have made them at the level you are. I think you're one of only a handful and I would stand by. I stand by that and I would absolutely say that in the history of the world. I would say so. Yes. Yes, I would. All right. All right. I'm not trying to take anything away from him. He's brilliant at what he does, but the history of the world is a long time. Well, that's what I'm saying. So you're going to live with that.
00:01:33
Speaker
You know, Conrad, you know, it may be like you'd say, well, why would we have a quote unquote, and there's more to this, a planemaker to on the podcast to talk about design? Well, I think we know that if those of you who know Conrad know he's much more than someone who makes tools, he's had a long career as a designer and an artist, even though the artist label makes him cringe a little bit inside.
00:01:58
Speaker
And he is one of the most thoughtful and well-spoken people I know. So there's no pressure now. I've just set the bar unbelievably high.
Bonding over Design and Humor
00:02:08
Speaker
but you're someone who just every time we talk and I own one of Conrad's planes and you know that's sort of our gateway to getting to know each other better that and sending iron chic memes to each other on in on instagram endlessly uh you're someone who just loves to think and talk about design and I notice we always
00:02:28
Speaker
Just without even trying, we get into our two hour long texting conversations. And we both have other things to be doing, but we just can't help it. It oozes out of us uncontrollably. So I thought it would be awesome to have Conrad as our first guest on woodworking is bullshit. I know he shares a lot of the same thoughts on that as we do. So Conrad, welcome. You're our first guest. And as always, we start with a question.
00:02:56
Speaker
And so we've asked Conrad to pose today's question.
The Beauty of Effort in Craft
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. First off, this is pretty cool. Question slash statement is the world is full of ugly. So if you're going to take the time to make something, you may as well make it beautiful.
00:03:13
Speaker
That's it. I find no fault with that. Yeah, it's a lot of work making anything, especially in the way that most of us are making things. We're not doing huge productions of things. We're doing thoughtful, deliberate things. So take the time. Make it beautiful.
00:03:33
Speaker
Can I ask a question on different views of beauty and relevant to some audience members?
Critique of River Tables
00:03:43
Speaker
What are your thoughts on river tables? How much epoxy is in said river table?
00:03:54
Speaker
Oh, we're going. I don't know. We can talk about any table, but I was thinking, you know, the typical bright blue, lots of epoxy. The first time I saw one, I had never seen anything like that. And I thought, wow, that's pretty cool. And then 20 minutes later, I was.
00:04:12
Speaker
done with it really. I mean it's a neat idea and I can appreciate you know that somebody integrated glass into a piece of wood and gave it a name that made sense. I get all of that but it doesn't really do much for me if that's a better opinion.
00:04:34
Speaker
Well, the reason I asked is because we had there's like so many different definitions of what beauty is, I guess. Beauty is in the eye of its beholders. But, you know, people who are really into her tables are, you know, like, there's different. It would fall more into the it's clever category rather than a beauty category. I mean, that's, I think that's maybe the same thing with epoxy to me. It's
00:05:00
Speaker
It was a neat idea that somebody came up with at some point, and it's been done 875,000 times too many since the first one. That's an interesting distinction, that delineation between beautiful and clever, because that's not always very clear, like which side of that line an object falls on.
Clever vs. Beautiful in Design
00:05:21
Speaker
So how do you approach that?
00:05:25
Speaker
When you do a thing long enough, right? Like you need to find new challenges and a clever idea can be an interesting new challenge. So how do you approach that in your goal to make beautiful objects? When sometimes you come across an idea where you're like, maybe it's not beautiful, but damn it, that might be fun.
00:05:46
Speaker
Oh, if something is fun, absolutely do it. I mean, when when Joe Steiner and I wrote our business plan, the first thing we wrote was if this is not fun, this is not worth doing. And that that is still kind of rings true for me with with absolutely everything. It's too much bloody work doing anything. If it's not fun, don't even bother. So clever can be really, really fun and absolutely see where that goes. But you have to be able to look
00:06:15
Speaker
add it as you're working on it and make the distinction between is this am I just doing this because it's just clever? Okay, I'm going to proceed. But I'm going to just leave it as a clever trick. As opposed to saying I'm going to try and hang my hat on this for the rest of my life or, you know, whatever.
00:06:32
Speaker
I mean, beauty is a, I mean, you're right, Mary, it's a totally, it's a really difficult thing to pin down. And it absolutely is in the eye of the beholder. But I know that, you know, you've got some training, you're in architecture. There are principles of
00:06:47
Speaker
you know, proportions and relationships and interactions with various things that all start, I mean, the whole kind of foundational things. It's a little bit like a chair. You know, a chair has got some really, really
00:07:04
Speaker
There's some pretty strict things about what makes a good chair a good chair. Like there's some really, really fine angles and there's not a lot of room to screw around with those. And then it's a disaster. But once you've taken those rough ideas and those parameters, that's when you get to have fun and impart something else to it. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, what do you guys, how do you guys encounter the distinction between clever versus beautiful?
00:07:37
Speaker
It's a hard thing to delineate. I think the chair is an interesting example because then you can you can keep pushing on the design idea of like what what makes a chair a chair, right? It has to be a certain number of inches off the floor. It has to presumably have a back. Otherwise, it's a stool, probably mortise and tenon joinery. But you know, then it can be plastic molded as well. Like there's
00:08:03
Speaker
you finding your limitations your creative limitations and then trying to work within those boundaries i think is is
00:08:11
Speaker
maybe what distinguishes a beautiful object from a clever object, right? Like if you maybe find a way to push those physical limitations or those physical boundaries of an object just beyond where they've been. Maybe, I'm just shooting from the hip, but maybe that's where it's like it's an idea and you're like, this could be really interesting, but it doesn't necessarily have to be beautiful. But if you're working strictly within the boundaries of that white page,
00:08:37
Speaker
then I think maybe you're like, this has to be exceptionally beautiful, otherwise maybe it's not worth making.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, and you can take something that's clever, you can take a clever notion or a clever idea and then work towards also making it beautiful. Like, they're not, they don't need to be mutually exclusive. But, you know, yeah, I guess in the context of, you know, something like an epoxy pour or a river table, it's a clever idea, right? The big picture idea of, hey, I got these two aunts of wood, they've got an interesting edge, let's kind of put them together and pour some shit down the middle and glue them together.
00:09:12
Speaker
Right. That's a clever idea. And the cleverness really in most cases really outshines the beauty other than maybe it's a beautiful piece of wood, which probably should have been used for something else.
00:09:27
Speaker
Maybe cleverness, then, in that particular instance, and I think this probably plays out over other instances, maybe the cleverness is short-lived, right? Maybe that's the problem with clever. It's the first time you do it. It's clever, and after that, it's, you know, anybody can do it. Yeah, it's like a contract pony, right? I mean, yeah.
00:09:48
Speaker
All right, so now that Mary poked the bear and got us talking about river tables and cleverness, I'm gonna pull the conversation back to a much more fundamental topic, which I think it is, Conrad, I feel like you have some real, let's say, strong coffee thoughts about the importance of design and how it's chronically taking a back seat for many woodworkers.
Balancing Skills and Design Language
00:10:12
Speaker
Is that true?
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it doesn't get talked about very often because it's difficult to talk about it. Because it starts, you know, venturing into the art side a little bit and frankly, most woodworkers, you know, I mean, I've been really lucky that I've had
00:10:34
Speaker
you know, almost 40 years to, you know, sink my teeth into making stuff. So I've had a lot of time to invest into it, but a lot of woodworkers are, you know, their schedules are probably sporadic if they're not, they're not doing it full time. And so it's, it's difficult, it's difficult for them to
00:10:57
Speaker
Yeah, it just poses a different challenge for them to be able to figure out how to find the time to put it all together, I guess. Do you think there's a typical path that most workers follow where they learn how first and then the what? For sure.
00:11:19
Speaker
that's it's easier it's easier most people find it more comfortable or maybe easier to understand the technical aspects of making stuff so learning how to hand cut dovetails learning mortise and tenon learning wood movement learning all of those they're really important they're they're absolutely important but it's really easy to focus on
00:11:41
Speaker
those aspects, as opposed to saying, like, I've seen lots of, you know, extremely well executed pieces of furniture that aren't really that nice looking. And so they've, they focused on only one side of the making of a thing, as opposed to, okay, I need to learn both of these things, I need to, I need to learn how to do all of these construction methods really well. But then I need to also figure out, you know, like, go to a museum and walk around and look at
00:12:09
Speaker
most of the time, really beautiful pieces of furniture and step back and try and figure out, well, why? Why is that particular dresser? It's not a style that I particularly like, but why is it still beautiful and why is it still well done? What is it about the proportions, about the material usage, all of those sorts of things. So I think that's, it's just easier to focus on the technical stuff than it is on the,
00:12:36
Speaker
you know, talking about the design aspect of it. And I think part of it too is that nobody is or very few people are taught the language of design and how to speak about it in a way that makes sense. So I've got a friend who is a fellow plane maker and we've spent, you know, an hour talking about the speed of a line in a curve.
00:13:00
Speaker
And he was working on this plane and he was sending me photos of it. And he was saying, look, I want to make this look faster. And he knew that I would know what he was talking about. And so we talked about where to change the curve to give it a little bit more speed.
00:13:14
Speaker
And that's a very, it was an amazing conversation to have, and I really enjoyed those conversations, but you have to understand a language to speak about things like that, like something looks heavy, something looks light, something density, all of those sorts of things, all of those emotions that get imparted through design, but that's usually not talked about, or it's not really a language or a use of language that most people are familiar with. And so it feels uncomfortable.
00:13:44
Speaker
So I agree with everything you just said, but in defense of the learner, I'm going to.
00:13:54
Speaker
push a little further and say, I think maybe that it's impossible to learn the why without first learning the how, right? Or maybe impossible is too strong because there are folks who go to school specifically for design, Mary, and like learn the theory specifically. And then the how is almost like, well, I don't, and I'm not saying Mary isn't elitist in this way, but like there is that school.
00:14:19
Speaker
Not only in that way, but there's that school of thought of like, well, I'm the thinker and then the people who make the thing, they're beneath me, right? Because they do the thing. But in, so I was a woodshop teacher for five years. So I taught grades five through 12 from the introduction to woodshop all the way up to AP studio art. And what I found in, I would say 95% or more of the students is,
00:14:48
Speaker
They they cannot imagine the boundaries of the page without first having explored the entirety of the page itself. Right. So if you try to explain to them these high minded concepts of like, let's talk about the speed of a curve, they're like, what fucking curve? They have to go make the curve with their hands first and then they start to manipulate it and see what they get wrong. And then you can go, let's have this conversation now.
00:15:18
Speaker
You could also do a field trip to the parking lot at the school and say, let's go look at all the cars, right? Go find a Volvo and say what the shapes and forms of an old Volvo, you know, the rectilinear boxy ones.
00:15:32
Speaker
What does that say, right? And then go look at a, I don't know, whatever, and just do that comparison. That would be a really good way of explaining in a real world thing in, you know, an hour, the difference between those course forms or even, I mean, hell, even just look at the school, right? Look at the outline of the school. Is it a big, huge, tall, formidable building?
00:15:53
Speaker
I mean, how do you interact with that? What impression does that give you? So there's all sorts of shapes all around us that I think you could use as a teaching tool to help illustrate why something looks the way it looks and why does it look good or why does it look bad.
00:16:12
Speaker
But again, it comes back to, it comes back to the language of having those kinds of discussions. And I think that's, unfortunately, it's not really talked about or because it's a, it's, it's kind of a formal, it's kind of a formal training. It's highlighted. It's a, it's a little bit elitist. I'm not going to lie. And this is all coming from people who really enjoy this conversation. It's a little bit elitist.
00:16:34
Speaker
It's not necessarily elitist.
Design Education: Creativity vs. Technical Skills
00:16:36
Speaker
I have thought on this. Go ahead, Mary. Because, okay, sure, I agree that it's easier to explore a new technique by learning, I don't know, technical skills and things, but it's because
00:16:52
Speaker
Being confident in your design decisions takes bravery and design is so subjective to people. There's not a right or wrong, per se. There are some people who agree more with one right or one wrong. But it's so difficult for people who are not familiar with the field to come in and be like,
00:17:13
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I'm going to take the sleep of bravery to design something that's completely out of the box and instead of just copying something that's existing. But I think for me, coming from an architecture background, it's a little bit different because we are taught, and I've talked about this before, we are taught to let your imagination run wild because
00:17:38
Speaker
The technical skills, you don't learn that in the first few years. Even in architecture school, the first two years were just concepts and thinking about looking at inspiration and thinking
00:17:50
Speaker
What else can I do to just think about the general form? And you don't learn about construction until later in the schooling years. And it's harder too because you can only work with these little models. You can't actually build a building to test it out or think about the technique. You work with other engineers who kind of tell you that and take other structural classes.
00:18:13
Speaker
I come at it from, yes, it might require some formal training or just require some sort of confidence in yourself to say that, yeah, I think this is a good design. And if it's not, that's fine. But pushing that boundary as the first step is something that I like to stick to because I am not technically a very, very, very proficient woodworker. I just kind of know
00:18:41
Speaker
this is the idea behind my design and I don't know how to build this yet, but I will figure it out along the way. So, I don't know, maybe that's, if it's elitist, that's fine. I think, I mean, I understand where you're coming from with saying that it's elitist, but I also,
00:19:00
Speaker
I think that's got a negative, unfortunately a negative connotation to it. And so I think of, you know, we've had people over before and they'll look at something and they'll say, you know, they'll look at it for a few minutes and then they'll say, you know, ask me, well, why do I like that? And I'll say, well, what are you looking at? What are you seeing?
00:19:17
Speaker
And these are people who aren't, they're not woodworking. They don't do woodworking at all. And sometimes it's as simple as saying, well, these two cabinet doors, the panels are bookmatched. So they match each other. And this is what book matching means. So it's like opening up a book. And yes, it may be elitist, but I think it's also sort of our job in a way to help educate people on why we are making these decisions. Like making a book match doors is no more work
00:19:46
Speaker
than making doors that have mismatched pieces. It's just being aware of what you're doing and recognizing that you're trying to get something harmonious looking and something balanced. And somebody will go along and they'll wallow around in the weeds and sometimes they'll just keep asking more and more questions and want to hear about
00:20:09
Speaker
you dissecting other things around in your home or outside or anywhere to explain. My experience has been most people actually enjoy looking through somebody else's eyes because it's just not something they've ever experienced before.
00:20:24
Speaker
And yes, it depends how you go about doing it. If you're a jackass about it, of course it's elitist in the negative sense. But if somebody is just genuinely interested, that's an amazing opportunity to explain a different way that maybe you walk through the world and see things.
00:20:44
Speaker
I think this is a, Eric, Eric, I was going to change topics. Do you have your, you need to say it. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I know I can feel it. Maybe he can't cause he's frozen. Well, in that case, I can say what I want to know. So, uh, Conrad, what was just one of the things you said to me, uh, in the previous, oh, are you back?
00:21:16
Speaker
Okay. I'm back. One of the things you said to me in a previous conversation about the importance of design was this use this analogy that I'm not sure a lot of us have heard exactly, which is one plus one equals
Concept of '1+1=3' in Design
00:21:29
Speaker
three. So could you elaborate on that? Yeah. So.
00:21:34
Speaker
And that kind of goes along with most people are familiar with 1 plus 1 equaling 2. So that's a very simple mathematical. Everybody understands it's easy. It's simple. But if you tell somebody 1 plus 1, actually, the goal is to try and make 1 plus 1 equal 3.
00:21:56
Speaker
For really really technically minded people that doesn't really compute very often but really what you're i think what you're trying to say without when i say that what i'm trying to get out is on.
00:22:08
Speaker
that unknown strange element to a piece that is just particularly interesting, particularly well done, that exceeds everybody's expectations. You have taken these two things, this one plus this one, put them together, but it has come out and become way more than what you would imagine or think that those two things combined would
00:22:32
Speaker
would make. So it intrigues, it delights, it just draws people in. Curtis, I remember you talking about a table that you had done and you had wanted somebody, the goal was that somebody would experience it all the way around the table.
00:22:51
Speaker
And then you you had somebody without any prompting on your part They did that right to me that you in that moment you that's an experience of you've taken One plus one and you've made it equal three because that person experienced something far outside what their expectations were but you your goal was to impart that feeling or that emotion or that result in that table and
00:23:19
Speaker
For me, that's always, I mean, there's lots of different ways that you can do that. It can be with little
00:23:26
Speaker
you know, little touches, little thoughtful touches that you put in it, like on the, you know, on the back of a drawer. So nobody, you know, so nobody might see that for a hundred years, but you put it there anyway, because damn it, this project is particular, for whatever reason, it lent itself to having that little thing there. So that's, for me, that's always kind of a goal, is how do you,
00:23:53
Speaker
I guess it goes back to, you know, the world is full of ugly. How do you, you know, make it make everything beautiful? This is also, I guess, a component of that, of always try and always trying to impart something extra in it. At the expense of additional time, just because just because, you know, hopefully, you know, enough of the things that we pour our heart and soul into.
00:24:19
Speaker
are going to outlast us. And someday, somebody may discover it and go, wow, that is really a cool thing. And it might just be a fleeting moment. But frankly, that's enough. Those fleeting moments are not nothing, though, right? No, they're not. It's an interesting way to phrase it, this kind of 1 plus 1 equals 3. This is greater than the sum of its parts, right? The way that I phrase it or the rule that I have is the object always comes first.
00:24:47
Speaker
Right? So it's it's the same concept, right? It's exactly what you just said, it might be a tiny detail on the back of a drawer runner that nobody's ever going to see. Except for that one time 72 years from now where some kid pulls it out and they notice a thing or maybe it's a secret drawer somewhere where they just like they stumble upon it and their mind is blown. It's a waste of time. It's completely uneconomical.
00:25:12
Speaker
But for some reason, it matters. And it's ineffable enough where I can't quite articulate why it matters. But it's those small moments of joy that make the object greater than just an object. This could be a whole other podcast. But I think what that is getting to and speaking to is the value of the story that is imparted into the object.
00:25:43
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, it is all about the story. And it's all about the story. That is the mechanism by which we human beings connect the most completely. That's how we relate to one another. We're storytellers by nature. That's right. And we are physically making stories.
00:26:04
Speaker
But then there's also an actual telling of the story of that piece to the customer or by way of some other description that makes it a much fuller experience. Again, the attempt or the goal is to equal three. I was just going to say, it relates back to our conversation last episode of what is craft versus art. We were saying that
00:26:33
Speaker
art usually tries to have more of a narrative and a story behind it, but I don't know. Conrad doesn't consider himself an artist. Is that what I- No, he just didn't like that label. We were talking the other day and he said, some little part of me inside cringes when we use the artiste. That's because artists take their planes out in the middle of the river and light them on fire.
00:26:58
Speaker
You know what? It may very well happen. We could try it. Paul, your play will burn long and hot.
00:27:11
Speaker
Thank you. It's because I'm hot. All right. So moving on. So I, you know, I feel as though we've talked about the importance of design and, and the goal of design one plus one equals three. And by the way, I just want to say in biology, there's something called synergy, which is a real thing inside your cells. Uh, that's just a small snippet, um, where.
00:27:35
Speaker
you know, two pathways converge and rather than being the sum of those pathways, it's a multiplicative of those pathways. So I, as soon as you said one plus one equals three, I'm like, well, it may not make sense to a math person, but this is right within living cells, this kind of synergistic pathway.
00:27:51
Speaker
Anyway, so that's about the importance of design and the goal of design. And so then I think a lot of listeners would say, oh, that's great, Conrad. That's very inspiring. 1 plus 1 equals 3. We're going to make something more than the sum of its parts. We're going to delight. We're going to enthrall people with our amazing design. And then the question is, well, how? How do you go about designing, and how do you
00:28:14
Speaker
Marry that to the methods. Do you design first with the methods in mind? Or do you design first with no regard for methods at all so that your mind isn't in a cage? So you always oh From this little person's perspective you always always design first and then you figure out how to do it because the other way around You you are I mean
00:28:41
Speaker
You know, anytime you're making something, most of the time there are constraints. So whether it be furniture or architecture or anything, there's usually constraints somewhere. And so you're having to work within a framework most of the time. So yeah, if you then limit yourself with all sorts of other constraints about, well, I only know how to do a dovetail,
00:29:05
Speaker
Well then everything is going to look you're going to be led all of your work is going to be reflective of that one thing that you know how to do as opposed to saying well this is what i want to make i want it to look like this or function like this or do this.
00:29:21
Speaker
Because that's going to produce the thing that I want to produce, then figure out, OK, now how do I go about making this? And so that can be, I mean, for most of us, that's going to include wood, or mostly be wood. But you can go back and start thinking about other materials, because other materials might lend themselves more to whatever it is that you're trying to make.
00:29:46
Speaker
But the design first thing, that is something that came through back when I was in school. And that was back when there weren't computers used in design. It was still stat cameras and what would be considered archaic tools now, but it was all done by hand.
00:30:06
Speaker
And so we had way, way, way, way more tools that are disposable to design or to execute a particular design. And then we had to figure out, well, what was the best way of going about it? And then a computer showed up and that was it was amazing. But it very quickly became the only tool that anybody was using. And surprise, surprise, everybody's work starts looking the same.
00:30:29
Speaker
Because it's all coming from the same place. Nobody is designing first and then going, oh yeah, you know what, this part of this project, a computer is an amazing tool to use right now. Great. I'm going to go use it. And then I'm going to switch back and do a full scale mock-up out of cardboard and something else. So it was just a tool as opposed to the tool.
00:30:54
Speaker
That's where I think that's been a really big challenge, I think, for the idea of design first and then figure out how to do it has been this incredibly powerful tool, the computer that we have, that is really, I mean, I see it a lot. It really has changed how people even think about what can be made or what should be made.
00:31:18
Speaker
because it's got limits to it. And their understanding of software, sometimes that's the limiting factor. And so everything starts looking the same because that's how far they've gotten in a tutorial on whatever.
00:31:35
Speaker
It's interesting that you bring up the computer and its limitations right away, because as soon as you started talking about that, there's this thing. And I don't know, Mary, you may know something about this working in AI and in computers. But there's this problem with monsters and movies being all
00:31:52
Speaker
the same, that like they have the same visual vocabulary, they're all more or less identical, and they're just mismatched, like which parts are being put where. But it's the exact same conversation because you're using this base of this is what the computer program can do. And nobody's willing to pay an artist the time and money that it takes.
00:32:12
Speaker
to create these mock-ups, go through these variations and create, I don't remember what the tangible props, whatever the vocabulary is they use for that. But it creates this new limitation that's, I think, so new that we're not able to break those boundaries yet, right? Like we've essentially turned the page and opened a new blank page and we haven't gotten to the borders of that 8x11 just yet.
00:32:37
Speaker
I think it will happen in time. I have enough faith in humanity that we're going to get bored with what these programs can do and create something interesting and new. But we're not there yet. And it all is in the furniture world. It's all very much the same because people are just
00:32:51
Speaker
This is this is what I call the echo chamber of social media, right?
Impact of Social Media on Design Trends
00:32:55
Speaker
People see in the river table is a perfect example of this. People see somebody made this, this was successful. So I'm going to make this and then it just perpetuates and creates this feedback loop where everybody's making the same damn things and nobody's doing anything interesting. Because if you do something interesting, there's a chance like Mary said that somebody's going to tell you it's bad and you don't have enough bravery to be bad for a minute.
00:33:18
Speaker
but that's the rest you can say when you're trying to do something interesting. Yeah, although usually the way that that goes is, for me, the other component to design first and figure out how to do it is also, when you're making something, you're working
00:33:37
Speaker
Ideally, and I've made choices to allow myself to work this way, I'm working for one person or a couple or a very small group of people. They are the only people I am beholden to. So as long as I am focused on making what is right for them or appropriate for them, I don't give a shit what anybody else thinks because they're my client, they're my customer. And that's another distinction between
00:34:03
Speaker
And Paul and I spent probably a couple hours this morning texting back and forth about this, the difference between a designer and an artist. And the differences in similarities between them, but the difference in the perspectives that they have is quite different in a lot of cases. Explain that. What do you see as the difference between the two?
00:34:29
Speaker
I think a lot of designers are, which that's probably how I see myself. I actually really like the problem solving component that comes with design. I like when a client comes to me and says, I've got this 14 foot wall and I need a cabinet that's 12 inches wide. What do you do?
00:34:52
Speaker
Right. That's that's a problem solving exercise. And it's there. It's a lot of fun. Artists generally, as the artist friends that I have, they would describe themselves and say, well, that doesn't work for me. I want to make what I want to make because I'm moved to make it. Which, hey, fill your boots. That's totally fine. But but for me, I actually enjoy the interaction.
00:35:19
Speaker
with a client and a customer, and I enjoy kind of those parameters and then trying to figure out how do I make something that fits within that, that A, fits within that, it comes in on budget, but then also,
00:35:34
Speaker
can be beautiful, then how do I impart something that works for the client, get a sense of who they are, what they're about, why they think the way they think. I mean, part of it is also, some of the times they don't even know what they want. What they're asking you- A lot of the times. Yeah, what they're asking you to make isn't actually what they want. So you've got to kind of know what questions to ask to figure out, okay, what do they really want.
00:36:00
Speaker
Or what do they really need? Or what would be a more appropriate solution for them? So a lot of it is, I mean, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. I mean, that's the other, you know, and the customer actually isn't always right. Oh, no, just now more often than not, they're very incorrect.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah and I think the other thing that Paul and I touched on with one of the things you're talking about was designers because they're used to working within those you know kind of a restricted or confined area
00:36:36
Speaker
are usually better at the ability to run a business, the ability to deal with all of the other crap that it takes to do any of this stuff. And design training or architecture training or really any kind of formal training like that
00:36:55
Speaker
really does introduce the idea of structure, of patterns, of organization, all of those sorts of things that then when you get around to, yeah, I really, really hate bookkeeping, but I know enough to know that I got to figure out how to do it, so I'm going to figure out how to work within that. I think the training or the skills that a designer has tends to lend itself more to kind of running a business
00:37:21
Speaker
a little bit more successfully or higher hopes of being successful at it. Whereas the stereotype of most artists is they tend to be a little bit more flaky. They don't really like the details very much. And they just want to create, which is great. But if that's the route you want to go, you have to recognize what often comes along with that, which is maybe some really lean months or years when the spirit hasn't moved you and you haven't come up with anything new.
00:37:50
Speaker
Well, again, that's fine. But it's so that's kind of the distinction. I guess designers, they already have the client. So then they're, they're kind of working within that. Whereas an artist, often the motivation is, you know, here's this thing I've made, let's see if I can find a buyer for it. Okay, it's fine. I'll start my own business if that's what you're saying.
Balancing Corporate and Creative Design
00:38:16
Speaker
Yeah, Mira, I feel like he's speaking your love language with design right there. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. It's like my day job versus my night. I mean, I don't know, I would still contain myself with design. Great job. Tell us more about that. Whoa.
00:38:38
Speaker
I agree. I like different contexts too, especially like as the like business owner, but I come from a side where I work with
00:38:48
Speaker
you know, larger companies, there is a problem that I'm solving. And also the audience is so large, as opposed to like one or two people, I'm like trying to make this board. And that's all I need to focus on. And I think that also has given me a bit of a thicker skin of just being like, I don't care if some people don't like this, because I know that the majority will like it. And I will solve it if I have to, like,
00:39:13
Speaker
I literally I go through this all the time with video editors because the editors are so stubborn and so like, yeah, just ordering their way of this is how I work. I'm really old school. I don't want to ever change. I don't ever want to think about anything new, especially my job, just like all these new features, but
00:39:35
Speaker
I don't know, it's I'm always going to be displeasing someone and I have learned to be okay with that and I think that helps me evolve as an experience as a designer. I'm a lot better with this is a really interesting distinction. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you know,
00:39:54
Speaker
Back when I was designing, I would always go back and reread the brief because that was the rule book. That was the playbook. And it was really interesting to have. And so going forward 20 years, I'd still do that in the sense that I'm very constantly touching base with the client, with the customer.
00:40:16
Speaker
because I send photos as I'm making their widget or even in cases they'll come over and I'll involve them as much as they want to be involved in the making of their widget if they're interested. And surprisingly number R, which is great. And that's all part of it. They're vested in it then.
00:40:38
Speaker
I was gonna say like, that's kind of why I work in these, I guess like kind of two ways of working. So in my day job, it's very much trying to fit the problem, fix the problem. And there's all of these really, like extreme limitations, so many edge cases I have to solve for.
00:40:53
Speaker
A lot of the time that's frustrating, but ultimately the best satisfaction as a designer is fixing everything. It covers all of those issues and you have a really good experience, you have a really great design and outcome. But then when I'm making furniture on the other side, I think I release a little bit of that frustration too because sometimes I'm like, I don't care.
00:41:16
Speaker
what you want. I'm just going to make what I want because I deal with so much of those limitations every day. Right. Pardon me. I don't care. You can buy it or not. I don't care. Yeah. Mary's sick of your bullshit. Conrad, one of the things you mentioned earlier moving from how we talked about how to design, design first and methods later, and I totally agree with that. You started getting into about the
00:41:46
Speaker
using the computer and potential pitfalls during design. You talked about how using the computer and in particular some computer software packages actually influences our design as opposed to having a wide open brain. And you've also, you and I in previous conversations have talked about a math obsessed world and you use the term rectilinear, which means like square, you know, sharp corners. And this bears on something that I did some research on and we talked about in a previous episode, which is
00:42:16
Speaker
What do humans prefer more rectilinear or curvilinear? Yeah, and there's there's a whole body of research on this and I actually have gone in PubMed and found the research and read the papers first. And and because I mean, how else would you know? I'm not an elitist who went to art school like Nick. So I'm just kidding. And Conrad went to design. He studied art in art in high school and he did he did design. Anyway,
00:42:49
Speaker
Rectilinear versus curvilinear, there's a big, big literature showing that humans prefer curves. And so what do you mean by a math-obsessed world? And do you really think that computer software is sort of a pitfall in the design process?
The Appeal of Curves over Boxes
00:43:04
Speaker
It can be. Like, it can be from the standpoint of
00:43:10
Speaker
Most people prefer to interact with curves. It's just in so many ways. Obviously, you know, a table needs to be flat. You do need some of those services. But when you've got the option, curves just they are often visually more interesting. You can have more fun with them. They can be a little bit more playful.
00:43:32
Speaker
But curves aren't as easy to do on a computer. I learned the first version of Adobe Illustrator when I was in school. That's what I cut my teeth on when that came out. And it was frustrating as hell, but also amazing that you could draw perfect circles and things like that. And as it got better, you could kind of chunk things out. But if you want to think in terms of curves,
00:44:02
Speaker
Getting onto a computer usually doesn't lend itself to thinking in terms of curves or to just, you know, just think as far as think of anything. Like don't, you know, don't pin yourself down. It's really good at drawing boxes. And so surprise, surprise, most things end up looking like boxes or little boxes next to big boxes or proportions of, you know, all of that kind of stuff. But a lot of a lot of what is being made looks
00:44:32
Speaker
they're quite similar to everything else that's being made. And I think part of that is because the computer is such an incredibly powerful tool.
00:44:42
Speaker
But again, it's being viewed, unfortunately, as the only tool as opposed to just a tool. So if somebody has to design a garbage can, most people are going to get onto a computer. They're not going to get a big piece of paper and turn it into a cone and start manipulating the way that cone opens or closes or squish it to make an oval and realize that, oh, this is actually not
00:45:07
Speaker
This is a really complex ellipse that this shape has made. It'll punch in one side. So it's a completely different approach to it. And I also think
00:45:20
Speaker
The act of taking that piece of paper and turning it into a cone and doing it maybe close to the right scale, the right size of the thing that is your goal, you get so much more insight, I think. It helps feed that design process.
00:45:37
Speaker
the act of turning that piece of paper into that cone-shaped object and screwing around with it, putting it on the desk and looking at it versus putting it on the ground where most garbage cans are. You get to walk through all of those sorts of experiential things that are really difficult to do when you're looking at a two-dimensional screen. Yes, you can draw it, you can render it, you can draw the shadows, you can do all of that kind of stuff, you can turn it. Look at it every which way from Sunday.
00:46:05
Speaker
But to me, it always feels as though it's a step removed from the experience and the act of the making of the thing and the experimenting with the thing. So I have a question. How many of you use computers in your design? Oh, for sure. For sure. Conrad, you do? Oh, absolutely. I love it. They're a useful tool. Every single plane
00:46:33
Speaker
There are components that are drawn in Adobe Illustrator. But that's only a phase that they go through. They're all drawn by hand. But I know. And I think that's a key distinction, though, right? Absolutely. That's a phase. I think that is a really important thing because folks want to render. They want to have all of the information beforehand.
00:46:52
Speaker
this is a hard thing when you're working with clients to sell them on this is like, I'm giving you an incomplete idea. So what I do in CAD, and maybe you do the same, is I will get all of the necessary functional information, right, the structural information, I'll figure out where my joinery needs to fall, I'll figure out how the actual box is going to go together, I'll figure out how the base of the table, whatever the thing is.
00:47:16
Speaker
And then everything else is an artistic process of, I don't know where this is going to go, but this is where it's headed. And then if it needs to take a left turn, it can, because that's information you can't get in a CAD program. Or maybe I should be more generous and say, I don't have the skill to get that information in the CAD program. And I imagine your planes are very similar.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I do them in Adobe Illustrator, like a component of them. So I start off, I draw it by hand and get kind of the course forms right and all of those kind of rough proportions right and know, okay, well, this one's gotta be 13 inches long and it's gotta be this because on a hand plane, you've got some really, if your hands are too far apart, it feels shitty. If they're too close together, it feels shitty. There are some, like a chair, there are some,
00:48:05
Speaker
really sensitive sorts of height dimensions. There's some sensitive relationships that you don't really want to screw with too much and I see people screwing with it all the time because they just don't know any better. So I know that I've got these certain things that I've got to hit or these certain areas or interactions I've got to hit.
00:48:22
Speaker
But then everything else after that, that's the candy store, that's when I get to have fun. So then I'll go into Illustrator and I'll take my drawings, I will quite literally take a photograph of a drawing, dump it into Photoshop, clean it up, dump it into Illustrator, draw over top of it, print that out, get tissue paper, put that over top, and redraw over it, and I'll just rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, and then I'll make a mock-up, like a full-scale mock-up, get my hands actually on it,
00:48:49
Speaker
So it's an invaluable, incredible tool, but it's just playing a reasonable role in a much larger process. But I think a lot of people get hung up on
00:49:06
Speaker
Well, I've got to render the whole thing accurately and consistently. And the problem is that a computer, it's too perfect. It draws too perfectly. I love the fact that a pencil line has got some movement to it. And are you going to go for the inside of the line or the outside of the line? Are you going to split the difference? What portion of that curve are you going to use? There's lots of times where I'll hand draw a curve. I'll take a photograph of it.
00:49:30
Speaker
And I'll be damned if I can redraw it on a computer. I just can't do it because there's something about the quality of the actual line. So how do you then I'm making a plane with it. It's going to become an edge. How do I capture what that pencil line felt like?
00:49:47
Speaker
So that's where a little bit of the wizardry comes in or whatever you want to call it. Maybe it's just experience of knowing, all right, this goes back to that fast line, right? Or a slow line. How do you speed that line up? What was it about the quality of that pencil line that looked so great that you want to keep? And then knowing how to kind of dissect it and figure that out. Interesting. Mary, do you use computers? And to what extent?
00:50:18
Speaker
I think you know the answer to this, but I might know it, but the listeners don't. Yes, I do. Although I do start out sketching and I have, so I used to sketch in a notebook and now I do all of my sketches on an iPad, which has been a little bit of a transition, I would say, but I like it because
00:50:37
Speaker
the canvas is infinite, saves space and it just makes, I think there's a lot more options that I could do. It is interesting like how they have tried to replicate hand drawing on iPad using the pencil because it's like the angle of the pencil and then there's the
00:50:52
Speaker
The shades, the pressure that you use. It's like almost there, but not quite, but it's good. I mean, it's good enough for me, but I definitely agree with what you're saying. I mean, the big one for me is the resistance of the paper. Like I'm kind of picky. I'm picky about my paper because I want to know how much resistance it's going to give me so that when I'm drawing, it's not going to wipe off. So when you're using an eye drawing on an iPad,
00:51:18
Speaker
Do you find that as convenient then to, like in a sketchbook, you just flip back some pages and you, you know, whatever. Do you find it as convenient to use, to go back and look at other drawings that you've done?
00:51:30
Speaker
Yes, because something I really like doing is I like copying and pasting all of my shitty sketches that I've done, or even some nice variations and putting them all on one page and being able to compare. Whereas if they're in a notebook, it's a little bit harder. I would take photos and maybe hold them side by side. So I like that aspect. I think the iPad digital aspect allows for a little bit more flexibility in the way that I work. But then I do move towards, and I usually model it up in CAD.
00:52:00
Speaker
That's just what I feel comfortable with. I'm someone who plans out everything. That helps me plan out what's the order of construction that I'm going to be doing and just what are the details. Sometimes I'll even do this fine details. This is like a half inch round over versus the equipment. It helps me plan
00:52:25
Speaker
Yeah, I know exactly what I used for that day and I have to do that because I work in a shared maker space. So if you're like, are you are you drawing out like, are you dimensioning mortise and tenons and dimensioning dovetails and things like that? Yeah.
00:52:40
Speaker
Yes, and like, sometimes, if I don't think it's necessary, then I might not. But for the most part, yes, because I just, I don't know, I come from a background where I just did details literally all day for many years. Yeah, I get it. I'm just curious. So like, you know, I've got stacks of sketchbooks. And, you know, I'll usually just hand draw like all of the joinery, like I'll kind of know where they all go.
00:53:05
Speaker
But I'll literally do an isometric drawing and just hand draw it out and dimension it out that way. So I'm just curious as to how you are working that. I'll often have, if I'm on one of my workbenches, that's where all the drawings will go. So I can get a really much bigger view of the whole thing.
00:53:24
Speaker
And that's why I was asking about the iPad, if that allows you to kind of go back and looking at how easy it is for you to go forward or back in your library of images or drawings. Yeah, I mean, that's why I like it. I like the ability to just very quickly flip through things and also compare different variations.
Transition to Digital Sketching
00:53:41
Speaker
Right, right. That's like for me, the first thing I do is edit artboard, make it huge in Illustrator. Just because I can do it. Same thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:51
Speaker
I use an iPad Pro as well and I don't know that I could be without it now. In fact, this is really embarrassing by the way. The double tap to undo and erase.
00:54:03
Speaker
I found myself, I was at my workbench drawing with a pencil and I hit with two fingers on the piece of paper. I felt so fucking stupid. I did it. And I wish I could say it only happened once. It's happened many times now. I'm so into the undo because, you know, just getting that shape right. Anyway, it's an iPad Pro with an eye pencil. And I tried it with a PC. This is not sponsored by Apple. This is not an iPad Pro. I tried to hold it with a PC.
00:54:32
Speaker
I tried a whole bunch of PC versions and PC pens and they all sucked and everyone's going to say, whoa, you didn't try this one. I don't know. Apple got it right with their, with their iPad pro and our eye pencil. Anyway. Um, now one of the, one of the other things we talked about previously was how, you know,
00:54:52
Speaker
in line with the computer is like sort of a preoccupation with math, a math obsessed world. And then that led to a discussion about, well, are you using
00:55:05
Speaker
like your math brain or using your art brain and do you use both? Are you leaning one way more than the other? Is it good to have both brains? It seems like the answer would be yes, right? Because use your art brain to design the thing in your math brain to execute the thing, right? Yeah, for sure.
00:55:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's it's most people are usually biased one way or the other. I mean, they're stronger in one than the other. And it's really helpful if you can if you recognize which side of that you fall on and then
00:55:44
Speaker
actively try and bring the other up to speed because there are so many times where, you know, if you're doing, there are so many technical aspects to, you know, making things, right? Like, so for me, for plane making, a bed angle has to be completely perfect matching with the blade. If it's not, it's not gonna work properly. So there are certain points where I've got to be absolutely spot on or when a handle fits into the rear infill,
00:56:13
Speaker
like quarter thousandth of an inch is the wiggle room I've got. Like it needs to be that close. But then, you know, so I'm, I'm using that, you know, technical, mathematical note, keep going. You got to hit this. This has got to be spot on because of the way those parts interact with each other. But after that's done.
00:56:31
Speaker
Then I'm just shaping the handle. And that's the part that I really enjoy. Because I'm not using little jigs and I'm not using a router. I'm just drawing some really quick layout lines. And I mostly ignore them anyway. But just grab rasps and files and start shaping. And I'm working by eye and I'm working by hand for what feels right.
00:56:53
Speaker
because the reality is that that's what's going to be interacting with it is other people's hands. So I'm a lefty, so I have to be really careful that I don't introduce a left-hand bias into anything.
00:57:05
Speaker
Um, so I'm constantly, you know, and I'm shaping a handle. I got my left hand on my right hand. I'm not looking at, I'm just feeling it to see how it feels on them. Because it's really, really easy to, it's really easy to introduce a bias because of handedness. Most and something that lefties tend to be more aware of than right handed people, just because the world is so right hand oriented that, you know, we, we're just a little bit more aware of handedness, I guess.
00:57:31
Speaker
So do you customize the handles for right-handedness or left-handedness? I do make them neutral. I see, okay. Because there are lots of times where you'll switch, like I'll just plain right-handed because it's easier than just walking around the bench or doing something different. I'll just hold it differently. But I wanted to, yeah, I try and make it as neutral as I possibly can. So that's a case where
00:57:58
Speaker
I'm not using math at all. To me, that's more of an artistic approach to it is just shaping it until it feels right. And I'll get harsh light. I'll put it up to harsh light and roll it to watch the way the curve rolls around the corner. If it's got a bit of a wobble to it or something, then I'll know that something's not quite right. So there are a lot of design tricks or design-oriented ways of approaching things that you can use
00:58:23
Speaker
You know, but that's just that's using your eyeballs and light and, um, things like that. It's not, it's not really so much about math. So I'm not, you know, I don't have a whole set of radiuses that I'm using at, you know, various parts to make sure that it's symmetrical. There's no way it's actually mathematically symmetrical, but I don't care. Do you make planes for different size planes for like men and women? Yep.
00:58:48
Speaker
Interesting. What about someone like me who has really, really long fingers? Yeah. So I would ask for a photocopy or a scan of your hand with a ruler and then adjust accordingly.
00:59:04
Speaker
But the other way of doing it is always to find out what planes are you using? What do you find comfortable? What do you not find comfortable? And what is comfortable or uncomfortable about it? So I'm guessing that, like I've got kind of medium sized hands, which I've made planes for generally, usually they're men with really humongous hands. And so I've got to scale things to accommodate them.
00:59:34
Speaker
But, you know, when my kids were little, I would have them try things out just to see, you know, how does a small hand fit into, you know, when is a handle just too big? Because there's always a little bit of latitude in some wiggle room that you've got. But another one that I was really surprised by was the thickness of the material I'm using plays a massive role in what's comfortable.
01:00:00
Speaker
And, you know, Stanley handles, they were using four quarter stock. So they're always under an inch thick and an inch and a 16th to an inch and an eighth is sort of a perfect thickness. But that means you're using oversized stock and you're wasting a lot of material unless you're doing what I'm doing where I'm getting a big chunk of wood and I'm re-sawing everything out of it that I need. So then you've got that control over it.
01:00:25
Speaker
So it's, it's all sorts of stuff like that. I mean, ergonomics is, I mean, that's a whole other aspect to all of this, to making stuff and, but also making furniture that, you know, is, is also something that doesn't get, I mean, it's, it's pretty near and dear to almost every tool maker. I know because that's, we're dealing with that all the time, but furniture too, it's got a lot of ergonomic components that don't seem to get talked about very often. Oh, Paul, are you muted?
01:00:57
Speaker
Design doesn't get talked about very often, so I'm not surprised. Organomics goes by the wayside. Our last topic, we're going to wrap up soon this episode.
Pushing Beyond the 80% Rule
01:01:09
Speaker
We're already at an hour. I don't know how that went by so fast. Eric has been in and out of the episode for the last 10 minutes. That's why you haven't heard him.
01:01:24
Speaker
Conrad, I want to wrap up on the 80-20 rule and your thoughts on that. Yeah, so the 80-20 rule came out of an experience with my family where a member of my family was quite proud of the fact that their goal is only shoot for 80%. Anything after 80%, if you get to 80%, that's the sweet spot.
01:01:53
Speaker
for, I'm trying to keep this neutral so that this person will remain anonymous. But my sister and I are, my youngest sister and I are wired very similarly in that we tend to always be asking the question, how high is up? And what are we capable of doing? And so for us, the idea of deliberately stopping at 80
01:02:19
Speaker
Seemed completely insane and my my sister looked over mouth when this person was explaining You know how proud they are of this 80% rule my sister leaned over at me and mouth the words
01:02:34
Speaker
She was so, yeah, she was just so floored that that would be, that would be a place to settle. And for me, like, getting to 80% is an achievement for sure, in most things, but it actually isn't really that hard. Lots of people can get to 80 with a little bit of time and a little bit of effort and some work.
01:02:57
Speaker
And that's a B minus. Yeah, exactly. It's the Asian side of me coming out here. You know, Mary, a lot of people are happy with a B minus these days. We've gotten soft, collectively soft. So for me, like, I want to know. Oh, Eric's back. Hey, everyone. Eric decided to come back. That's a good time for C plus.
01:03:20
Speaker
For me, I want to know what I'm capable of. I want to find out when I am the limiting factor. So for me, if you want to use the analogy of standing at base camp looking up at Everest, you don't know
01:03:39
Speaker
you know, most lots of people don't make it. I mean, they are now with helicopters and all sorts of other weird shit. But, you know, you're standing at the bottom of base camp thinking, do I have what it takes to get to the top of this thing? And it's a hell of a lot of work to do that. And but I want to know, I want to know, am I capable of and you make an attempt and you don't get there and you come back down and you figure out what to do to go back to try and go back up again. So
01:04:08
Speaker
The other, I guess, part of using this analogy is if you actually do get there, if you do finally get to the top, the really amazing advantage of standing at the top of Mount Everest is you get to look around and find out where is the next mountain peak. So then you can find out... Would you say it's a form of elitism? Pardon me? Would you say it's a form of elitism?
01:04:35
Speaker
Yeah, full circle, full circle. But that's always the goal, is to figure out, you know, what am I capable of? And if you get there, if you find yourself getting there, grab the bar and push it, see if you can push it a little bit higher. Just to know, because it keeps things interesting and it keeps you challenged. Otherwise, you know,
01:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. So for me, that's always been the way of approaching it. And so for me, it's the last, whatever you want to call it, 10%, 20%, 5%, 3%. That's always the part that's the most interesting, because that's when, and you are well past the point of diminishing returns. You are not doing this because it makes economic sense. It is a personal,
01:05:22
Speaker
It is a personal band that you are a personal way of being wired. But I've found over the years that the other people that I run into that are even wired similarly
01:05:37
Speaker
there tends to be a really interesting kinship that gets sort of formed because of that. And we all kind of help each other along. And when somebody has some success in some thing that seems impossible,
01:05:54
Speaker
you know, being invited, you know, hearing about that is really, really amazing. And so, you know, you kind of do that with each other and for each other to kind of help each other, help each other along and help each other figure out how to get to the top of, you know, whatever it is you're trying to get to. Well, Conrad, very inspiring.
01:06:15
Speaker
I'm very elitist and very inspiring. I'm sure we're going to upset a lot of people, which is the point of this. I'm just kidding. No, really, thank you for your thoughts on all this. Your view on design, some of your analogies are going to stick with me, and I think that's why we do this podcast.
01:06:34
Speaker
I mean, we all have design thoughts, but I'll always be thinking about one plus one equals three. Now, you know, I've been sort of reflecting on that because it's such a easy thing to remember as you look at your work and you sort of self critiquing and, you know, it never occurred to me that we didn't, uh, we,
01:06:55
Speaker
We will pick that up another time. We'll have Conrad back and we can talk about how to learn how to critique because I think that's a long topic. But another thing that you talked about that I hadn't really considered is the influence of computer software on our design. That's I hadn't really that thought. I mean, maybe I knew it in the back of my head, but it certainly was never crystallized like that. So I really like that. I really like the points you made on that.
01:07:23
Speaker
And because we're at the hour, we're going to wrap up now. We'll do this. We'll save the slide for the after show for whoever is. No, no, we're going to save it in the after show.
01:07:40
Speaker
I have it. Don't worry. I have it. He'll hear it in the after show for all of our Patreon supporters who get the after show. So with that, uh, Conrad, I want to thank you again for your, um, your amazing, uh, experience viewpoints intellect. You're, you're a phenomenal maker and I feel very fortunate to have you, uh, chat with us today. So thank you. Oh, thank you. All right, everyone. We'll see you in the after show. Hi.