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The Gottman Method: Strengthening Relationships through Science-Based Practicality (feat. Justin Pere, LMHC, CST, CGT)
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In EPISODE 70 of The Therapy4Dads Podcast, we are joined by Justin Pere, a certified Gottman therapist with extensive experience in working with hundreds of couples. Justin shares his journey as a therapist and how he transitioned from working with older adults to focusing on young people. He started his own practice called Clarity Counseling in Seattle 13 years ago and decided to market his services specifically to men, drawing from his personal experience and knowledge as an adult male in relationships. Justin received training in couples therapy, specifically in EFT and the Gottman Method. He expanded his practice to work with women and all gender expressions by marketing more to couples. He also received training in sex and intimacy therapy, becoming a relationship therapist with expertise in sex therapy.
During the episode, Justin delves into the Gottman Method developed by John and Julie Gottman, who are known for their extensive research on relationships. This method includes conversations, activities, concepts, mnemonics, and skills to improve relationships, emphasizing restoring connection, emotional intimacy, and healthy conflict. Justin breaks down Gottman's "Sound Relationship House" which is a helpful visual representation of a healthy relationship. Join us on this episode of The Therapy4Dads Podcast as we dive deep into the Gottman Method with Justin Pere, exploring practical strategies to strengthen relationships and create lasting connections.
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Transcript
Introduction to Gottman Relationship Concepts
00:00:00
Speaker
So what is this relationship house and why should we care about it? Yeah, you should care about it because it's the core of the Gottman research. It's essentially, I mean, there's so much to Gottman and it's really robust. But the core parts are 50 years of research has yielded nine main components of what makes up a relationship.
00:00:20
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:40
Speaker
Well, welcome everybody to this week's episode of the therapy for dad's podcast. Always excited. I always say this, but actually I'm always excited to have a new guest on, um, a new relationship, new friend to have conversations around, uh, the integration of kind of men's holistic mental health.
00:00:58
Speaker
education, and kind of fatherhood, parenthood, and kind of we're in that intersection there. And tonight, today, this morning, whenever you are listening to this, whether if you're tuning in through Apple or Spotify, or if you're watching this on YouTube, welcome, welcome to
Meet Justin Peer: From IT to Therapy
00:01:14
Speaker
this week's episode. And I would like to welcome Justin Peer, who is a certified Gottman therapist, and I wanted to have him on for this conversation.
00:01:22
Speaker
specifically, and I'm excited to dive in with them. But before we jump into today's topic, welcome, welcome, Justin. How you doing? I'm good, Charles. Thank you for having me here. Yeah, I'm stoked to have you on. I really, really am. Can you tell us a little bit about who Justin Pierre is, the work you're doing, and your expertise?
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, let's see. I've been a therapist for about 20 years. My first career was in IT, which is what you do in the Seattle area if you don't know what you want to do when you're in your 20s and it's 1998. So I got into the wrong field and then realized really quickly that I should be either a photographer or a psychologist. And I looked into both and decided that I should try psychotherapy and went to grad school in my late 20s. And let's see.
00:02:09
Speaker
did some community mental health, working with older adults for a number of years and then trying to give you the short version Travis. It's all good. I selfishly wanted to benefit from the wisdom of older adults. So I'm like, that's who I'm going to do therapy with. And then I spent five years working with older adults and I realized I am burned out on this and I need something really different. So I went to the whole other end of the spectrum and started working with young people.
00:02:35
Speaker
and marketing the young people. And I launched my private practice about 13 years ago, Clarity Counseling Seattle. And I started marketing the men because I thought, what do I know? I know being an adult male and all the challenges that come with that.
00:02:51
Speaker
I know being a male in relationships and I know a lot of people are going to want to talk about their relationships. And I knew that men really needed to get into therapy. So I marketed to young men and got 25 and 30 year olds in and within a few months I was seeing probably 25 or 28 males a week and loved it and still do.
00:03:11
Speaker
And then, as I suspected, they wanted to talk about relationships. So I needed to get trained in couples therapy, relationship therapy.
Therapeutic Approaches: Emotionally Focused Therapy and Gottman Method
00:03:19
Speaker
So about five years in, I went back to workshops and trainings and got trained in EFT, Emotionally Focused Therapy. I also got trained in the Gottman Method, which we're going to talk about today, and realized I'm loving working with men and I really
00:03:34
Speaker
would love to work with women or all gender expressions and so I started marketing more to couples and so then for the next five years I saw a lot of couples and then I realized that couples were wanting to talk about sex a lot and I avoided it because like most relationship therapists you aren't or any psychotherapist you don't have training in that lip and sex and intimacy unless you really seek that out so I went and got trained in that about five six years ago and
00:03:59
Speaker
And I'm, you know, I'm a sex therapist, but I'm, that's one of my titles, but I can think of myself as more of a relationship therapist who has a lot of training in sex and can work with that too. I see about 15 to 17 couples a week, pretty much only working with the couples, I think, for the rest of my career, because I love relationship work.
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it you know, it's funny if you if you are listening to this and Are an aspiring therapist that sounds very much like the trajectory of I feel like most therapists I feel like they you kind of start off in these this has nothing to do with really what tonight's episode is about but it just made me think of my journey as the therapist of like you do this and you realize I need to learn more about this and you learn more about this and
00:04:39
Speaker
Cause when you come out of grad school, you know, we have this kind of width of knowledge with not that much depth, but you know, the reality is you can't learn everything. So you, you figure out what you love to do. And I need to learn about couples and whether it's Gottman or EFT or sex or these things. And you're right. We got to learn these things and you kind of get a heart and a passion and.
00:04:57
Speaker
kind of keep learning. So, but I do want to say why you're on tonight is that your passion for men. That's a huge connection as to why you're on this. And I wanted you to be on this podcast was that connection with your heart, your care, your experience, your passion for helping men and couples.
00:05:18
Speaker
and really helping them within relationships, right? Because you're right, a lot of men they come in, most men there's having, often there's some type of difficulty within a relationship, whether a partner or a family member, right? There's always something going on. And so I'm stoked to have you on here and specifically tonight as we kind of gear up to look at kind of men in therapy and within couples and the use of, you know, the Gottman method, right?
00:05:47
Speaker
being a certified Gottman therapist. I've done, I, you know, for those who don't know, I'm not a trained Gottman therapist. I'm not certified in it. Have I read it? Yes. I've taught classes on it. Yes. I know the, you know, the main book, but I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not certified.
00:06:02
Speaker
So I wanted to have someone on who knows this more inside and out, who spent more time getting and working through the certification, who understands the model, and who's applied it specifically to men and couples for years and really worked with hundreds of couples, hundreds, right? I mean, when I hear you're seeing 16 to 17 a week, I'm just doing the math over the years. I'm sure it's been in the hundreds, if not more, with couples. So, you know, definitely have experience, I would say.
Key Pillars: Trust, Commitment, and Love Maps
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I do.
00:06:32
Speaker
Since that's why you're on, let's start with what is just kind of in general, what's the elevator pitch, like what is the Gottman method? So let me first say Travis, I'm going to do my best to represent some of the ways that the Gottman Institute would word things. They of course will say it better than I do, but I've done this for a while and I've probably gotten into my own versions of answering questions like that about what is the Gottman method.
00:06:55
Speaker
some of the things you're probably gonna ask me so i need a little bit of grace around my word choice so but i'm gonna try to try to stay as close to how they teach us to describe things like that okay with that disclaimer you have all the grace of the world on my podcast i'm telling right now this is okay quick caveat um this is a conversation quick cap gives us a conversation
00:07:15
Speaker
There's grace here. This is not to quote everything that we say and go to a book and say, hey, you said this, you said, but versus and that's not what this is. This is like, we want to get, we're here to educate and help, help men and women understand how this can be applicable. And we're, this is a, we'll call it a paraphrase. How about that? We are paraphrasing. I think that's what I needed to hear. Okay.
00:07:35
Speaker
The Gottman Method. John and Julie Gottman are a couple. They actually live in the Seattle area where I am. That's not why we follow the Gottman approach. They're worldwide, but they happen to be local to where I am. So they're a married couple. He's been called the Einstein of love, John Gottman. He's got 50 plus years of research on relationships and what makes relationships work.
00:07:56
Speaker
the science and the art of relationships. And John's wife is Julie, Julie Gottman. They're both PhDs, they're both amazing. John is more the researcher, Julie is more the practitioner, but they're both in the research and they're certainly both amazing practitioners. John's written, I think, over 50 books. The Institute has done over 50 years of research. So the Gottmans have
00:08:15
Speaker
contributed so much of the knowledge and the data behind what's going on in a relationship, what's going to make you a master of relationship versus a disaster, right? So the method includes taking information from all their years of research and turning it into conversations to have with your partner and, you know, assuming Gottman method is in therapy, so conversations to have with your therapist with your partner.
00:08:39
Speaker
activities to do in therapy with your partner and your counselor. Concepts, mnemonics about things, to remember things, skills. It's very tangible. The Gottmans are great at creating tangible activities and concepts and names of things that you can remember and take out of your therapy session and bring into your marriage at home.
00:08:59
Speaker
Gottman method, when using that approach, you're often having couples turn and talk to each other around doing things that will help to restore connection and friendship and emotional intimacy and to have healthy conflict. It's really hitting on all the parts of the moving parts within a relationship. And the Gottmans know that, what those parts are, because of all the research they've done.
00:09:23
Speaker
So it's a variety of things and a lot of people love it. A lot of men especially love the Gottman approach because it's science-based and it gives it much more legitimacy than some of the other approaches that don't claim to be a science-based because they can't. And then also it's some of the things that just seem more practical and skill-based and in my experience of doing this, this tends to appeal more to men. So let's dive a little deeper into the waters of the Gottman method.
00:09:52
Speaker
You kind of gave a little framework of who they are, how long they've been doing it, and really their mark on couples. And it's really set the tone for a lot of other research and other couples' theories of treatment. I think they've really impacted so much of our field and continue to do so. Like you said, they're still doing things. It's ongoing.
00:10:12
Speaker
and it will continue to do so. Let's talk a bit about this notion or this idea or this framework of the sound relationship house. So I know this is an idea that if you're never done Gottman theory or Gottman couples therapy, this is all new to you, but there's this idea of the sound relationship house and really it's tying in completely to the method. So what is this relationship house and why should we care about it?
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, you should care about it because it's the core of the Gottman research. It's essentially, I mean, there's so much to Gottman and it's really robust. But the core parts are 50 years of research has yielded nine main components of what makes up a relationship.
00:10:54
Speaker
And the house metaphor, I mean, where most of your people are either, if they're seeing us or they're listening to us right now, I can't share my screen, you should share this diagram. It's a, sometimes when people see it, they're like, Oh, I've seen that before. It's a crude drawing of a house. And this house has seven floors and two pillars. And that makes up nine parts. So it's a metaphor of a house.
00:11:13
Speaker
And it's like your relationship is a house, and it has scaffolding, and it has these floors, and all of them are important. But it's essentially a creative way of expressing nine parts of what's happening in your relationship. And so it's really important to understand what are those parts, and then understand which of these are already strengths for us, and let's continue to work on them even though they're strengths, and which of these nine are areas for growth.
Building a Culture of Appreciation
00:11:35
Speaker
So the Gottman process has a questionnaire. It's optional, but we always recommend it. It's a really robust questionnaire that takes about an hour and a half for couples to do.
00:11:42
Speaker
And it gives a lot of information to the therapist and to the couple about a bunch of things, but including where do you rank in all these nine parts of this house? So really crucial. So the bottom floor of the seven floors and the two pillars of this house is what the Gottman's called love maps. And the love map is having a sense of your partner's internal world. Meaning, what are some of the things that your partner is worried about these days? What's keeping them up at night?
00:12:10
Speaker
what is happening in their lives when you're not around what's happening with the friends that they talk to their friends are family members who have things going on and they may be talking to your spouse or leaning on your spouse and so your spouse is dealing with maybe a friend's divorce or some something going on
00:12:26
Speaker
things going on at work, relationships at work. Your partner has their own internal world of thoughts and feelings and fears and challenges and dreams, all sorts of things that your partner knows about. But you only know as much about as you ask of them each day or night, or they share with you. And of course, none of us are going to or should go home at night, let's say if we've gone to work and we come back, but those of us that still do that.
00:12:50
Speaker
We shouldn't and we can't download let's say 16 hours of here's what you missed since I saw you last.
00:12:57
Speaker
But what we can and should do with this love map concept is we should make sure that every built into our day, whether it's in the morning, day, or night, or all of those, we make time to sit across from our partner and have meaningful interaction. Hey, how are you? How was your day? Hey, you had that important talk coming up and you were worried about that. How'd that go? Hey, your friend was really struggling and you told me she was really upset the other day. How's she doing? It's knowing more about your partner's life
00:13:24
Speaker
And that meaningful interaction and being up to date somewhat with what's going on with your partner is just such a, it's so important. We do that when we first start dating, right? If you think about when you first get to know someone, you don't know anything about them. So you stay up till five in the morning talking and maybe making out, but like you're like, it's a blank slate. Tell me all about you. We do that at the beginning. We often do it for the first few months and hopefully the first few years, but we can get away from that, especially if we have children, speaking and parenting, right? We have to put so much attention to our children.
00:13:52
Speaker
and we can neglect the things that helped us to feel close and connected. We can be out of touch with our partner's map, but it's important to have an up-to-date map. And real quick caveat with that, because I think this is a thing that I've read and I think they've talked about, but with Love Map, and you mentioned having kids, which is a big shift in the dynamic of a couple, what do the Gottman say about big shifts like that, like a kid's or a big job change?
00:14:22
Speaker
and how that relates to having a good love map or a poor love map. Like what do they say about that when there's a big shift like that? What do they say? My guess would be they'd say that when you have a big change like that, of course your time and your energy is going to be pulled in those directions.
00:14:40
Speaker
and they need to be and we of course need to prioritize let's say having a child but that means it's especially important that you recognize in your marriage or your relationship that that's happening and it's like we need to we need to make sure that we're being especially attentive and intentional about prioritizing us some of the best ways to prioritize your child to prioritize your marriage.
00:14:59
Speaker
that's good because I think you're right that when there's a change going back to this like making this time and dating right because it's it's a natural part of dating that's just kind of wired it's just what you do but then when you have kids and you get busy those things they can start to kind of slip away and kind of drift because
00:15:16
Speaker
Kids take priority, life takes priority, kind of get into grooves and so we can kind of not update enough and regularly enough with our partner where we start to dismiss stuff and if left unchecked right over time we can get farther in part and so I think the love map that that core foundation is so key especially when we have these big life transitions whether it's a move or job change or
00:15:36
Speaker
having kids or because all these things could take up space and the importance of like you were saying is regular checking in checking in about important things that getting to know your partner over again I always think of like an app on your phone you know like how often you know how you know we update not all of us some of us have like a 90 on it as a red on the app store like someone I know I'm not gonna name her name but
00:16:01
Speaker
Doesn't update anything. And then other people who are like, they're constantly updating the apps, right? Because it's like, I want to work. And I always equate that to, I feel like in some ways it's like love maps. Like how often are you updating your apps? Are they out of date? Do you need to update them again? That's how I think of it. Totally. I love that. Yeah. And I used to work in technology. So we used to think of it as like update your files.
00:16:20
Speaker
Update your files. You're saying update your software. Yeah. It's like even every couple's therapy session is like, let's update our files. That's what happened before, what you thought was going on before. But as you sit here right now in my office, let's make sure all three of us are totally up to date about this thing.
00:16:37
Speaker
And so the love maps are her way of, yes, of staying up to date, of updating your software. Because if it's out of date, yes, it's bad for the couple. And in the vein of parenting, remember, as your children are getting older but starting really young, they're watching. They're watching parents if they sit at the table and talk or not, if they connect or not, if they talk on the phone or text or not. When they communicate, are they asking meaningful questions?
00:17:01
Speaker
Are they are they sitting there looking at each other and being curious about each other, right? Our children are absolutely observing that whether or not they realize it they usually don't but they're there We're modeling for them what marriage or if you don't get married, that's fine a relationship looks like sure and so I always ask that with couples What did you what did your parents model and I'm and I'm partly asking about this love map concept Did they seem to connect the prioritize time with each other even when they have let's say these three children?
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's so key, Justin, because you're right. Like, whatever generally, not always, because some people do have this awareness and toy change, but often we just kind of model what we saw done to us. That's normal, right? That's, you know, we didn't talk. We watched TV the whole time, right? I mean, so you just kind of replicate what better, worse.
00:17:44
Speaker
And you're absolutely spot on. I think that's so important and I think as couples too is like knowing what their normal was like or familiarity was like in their home because it gives you a good sense of what are they doing now? Are they replicating what was done in their home or are they kind of working on changing something different? Exactly. Yeah. So that's the bottom floor, right? That's floor one. So what's number two? What's the second
Emotional Intimacy and Healthy Communication
00:18:06
Speaker
floor? Yeah. The second floor up from the bottom is sharing fondness and admiration.
00:18:10
Speaker
What is that? Some of these are so obvious when you say them and it's like, did we do this? I don't know that we do this enough. Sharing fondness and admiration is creating a culture of appreciation in your relationship, a culture of appreciation where you are day to day keeping an eye out for things that you love and appreciate and value about your partner, either what your partner does or who your partner is or ideally both.
00:18:36
Speaker
It's easy to keep an eye out, especially if a couple's struggling, for things that you're frustrated about with your partner, what you're irritated about, how they're letting you down in some way, what isn't working. And so we need to really be intentional about, let me notice each day what I love about you and appreciate about you. And then also let me put words to that. Because sometimes people, I'm gonna talk with couples and someone says, I love all sorts of things about my spouse. And I say, do you tell her? And I see her start to shake her head if it's a wife. And he's like,
00:19:06
Speaker
I don't, maybe I don't really say anything, right? And it's like you can think wonderful things about your spouse but if you don't tell them, they don't know because your spouse can never read your mind. So this is really about telling couples to remember to make a point as often as you can and only saying things that you mean. It's not making stuff up but find genuine things that you love and appreciate about who your partner is, what your partner does or ideally both.
00:19:29
Speaker
Sometimes people say my partner is so good about expressing things that they love about who I am But they're not great about expressing things that they love or an appreciate and notice about what I do and boy I do a lot for this family or I do a lot for these children And I don't hear about it And so I don't I don't know that they're even noticing it other times people say the opposite They say my partner is so good about expressing what they see and appreciate about what I do But I don't hear nearly enough about what they love and appreciate about who I am
00:19:55
Speaker
That's a good distinction. Yeah, I think it's so important that who they are and what they do, it's both and, and, you know, like you could be thinking, and I love that you'd be thinking all day long, but if you don't actually express it, right? It's the same thing as like, did your parents ever told you they loved you? Right? And they say, no, it's like, okay, what did that feel like?
00:20:15
Speaker
It was awful, right? So it's the same thing as adults. If we don't actually say it, never gonna know. And for those dads, because not everyone listening to this episode or podcast is a dad, I get that. But those dads, what Justin has said with the common method, just that right there, expressing to your partner or mom of your children all the work that she does, if you want to begin to do something right now that you're not doing to really boost your relationship and partnership and or marriage,
00:20:40
Speaker
Start doing that. Acknowledge the work she's doing with your kids. All the efforts that goes into that every day. Acknowledge who she is and express that to her. That's one thing I hear so much on my podcast and on my social media is, how do I, you know, dads need to express this more. And I know there's a lot of layers to that I get. I have grace for dads and men. I know so does Jess and there's reasons why, but if you want a practical skill right now, do this starting now, like tonight, every day. Little things, write it down. Find ways to express this. And not only to your partner,
00:21:10
Speaker
But to your kids, tell them that too. This transcends age and generations here. It's not just for adults. This is also great for kids. Right. And the kids are watching what is said between parents about each other, for better or worse, including the compliments. They're learning, oh, that's what I do when I'm older. I notice things and I say things that are kind and sincere to my partner.
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah, and it's surprising to how often these things while they while they're simple in theory how often one at least when we see couples I'm sure there's there's a theme where these themes just tend to not be done, you know, while they're simple in the sense that they're not complicated, you know, it's not like you have to
00:21:50
Speaker
bounce on one foot while juggling, you know, flaming pineapples and, right, it's just doing it. But it's amazing that if we don't do these things, the impact it can have, right, which is why couples come to see us often is, hey, we're missing each other. And, you know, so I love that. Number one and two, floor one and two are so foundational. So what's three? What's the next one?
00:22:11
Speaker
Yeah. And that's related to floor one and two because we say that the bottom three floors make up friendship. And of course, you're more than friends, you're lovers. But even our our long term partnership is still based on friendship. So love maps, fondness and admiration. The third floor is turning toward instead of away. And that's about how you are with your partner when you're around them. Think about
00:22:34
Speaker
This idea of a bid for connection, right? It's a Gottman term, making a bid for connection. An obvious example of a bid is if I walk up to my spouse and I go and I try to give her a hug, right? She's going to respond in one of three ways. She's either going to hug me back, which is what I'm hoping she'll do. She'll accept my bid, or maybe she'll stand there and let me hug her, but she's not really hugging me back. So it's kind of in the middle.
00:22:55
Speaker
Or I might go to hug my wife and she might pull away. She might reject my bid for connection. And that moment matters. Is that a moment of connection or a moment of disconnection? That's going to affect the next moment and the next five minutes and maybe how our afternoon goes. So we're making bids for connection with our partner. That's an obvious one of going to hug someone. But often it's more subtle. If she's on one end of the couch and I'm on the other and maybe we're both reading a book,
00:23:21
Speaker
And I laugh at something, and I'm like, that is hilarious. Maybe I say that out loud. That is so hilarious. I mean, I probably wouldn't have said that if she wasn't in your shot. What I'm hoping that my wife will do is that she'll put her book down. She'll look at me and say, what? What is that, Justin? And I'll say, let me read something funny to you. That's a moment of connection. But what if instead she didn't say anything? She didn't look up from her book. She didn't reject it, but she didn't really. We're not having a moment. She didn't look up.
00:23:50
Speaker
And then a third option is I say, oh my goodness, that is so funny. I can't believe that. And she says, I'm trying to read over here. Oh, I felt that when you did that. Right. It's just like, oh, it just shuts you down. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that's that's a hug or that's, you know, a comment you make that you're hoping your partner will will acknowledge in some way. But it's also eye contact. Right. If you're trying
00:24:14
Speaker
Trying to connect with your partner by looking at them you're hoping they're gonna look back or do they or do they look away? If you smile at them they smile or not and so we could film I mean like the Gottman's did in their love lab we could film how a couple acts as they're staying you know for hours with each other and notice whether they're making bids for connection and how those bids are received or not and
00:24:34
Speaker
And if you think about it, those moments, there are many of them, and they carve out how your hour went together, which led into how that day went for this couple, which really ended up creating this whole relationship. You were charting whether you were moving toward connection and closeness in these little moments every day around hugs or eye contact or sounds or things that we do that were like, I'm hoping you'll interact with me.
00:24:59
Speaker
And so turning toward is making bids that are also, they need to be clear. Sometimes it's like I'm trying to connect with you, but I'm not doing it very effectively. So I need to make sure that I'm owning, that I try to connect with you in ways that are clean and clear rather than you just missing it. And then I need to recognize when you're trying to connect with me and maybe be willing to make some sacrifice or some inconvenience in the interest of my partner wants to connect with me right now. I can let that happen.
00:25:23
Speaker
Yeah. And that's something I think those little subtleties, like you said, they can trickle over and they can compound. And then if you, you know, if it's a couple that you throw in a mix of kids in there, like it easily get compounded quickly, right? Because then you got your kids needing your attention and how.
00:25:39
Speaker
you could have you could miss a bid and then how that can but then you can't actually address it because then your kid you know something happens someone's screaming or someone hits someone you know and you got to then move on and then it's like that could that could I could see how that could be left unresolved and how you can just kind of get in the busyness of just day-to-day stuff and then you go to sleep and wake up but that thing is still kind of festering and then you have another miss another miss another miss and then it's just like you know you could kind of see how
00:26:08
Speaker
It's not really that hard if you think about it for couples that kind of start to slowly drift with these small misses, right? But also though, on the flip, how closely connected you could be if you respond to these bids in a meaningful way and engage your partner and how that can actually build intimacy and connection. I'm just imagining that. That shush really hit me. I actually felt my nervous system kind of shock because it came through my mic at the right frequency and I was like, oh, actually, my nervous system,
00:26:36
Speaker
It's a good job. You made me feel that. It's a powerful shush. So that's the first three. And I love that that creates the idea and the concept of what friendship is. And so that's one, two, and three. So what's the next floor? Or we go to the outside walls yet, I forget.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah, let's go. We'll go up through the floors and then touch on the wall. So, you know, actually the way I describe it, I skipped the fourth step for a second and I go to the fifth floor, which is managing conflict. I'll tell you why in a minute. Managing conflict. And that's often the main reason that couples cite coming into couples therapy. The word communication is something almost every couple is going to say they want help with. And that's true. Yeah. Right. It's going to be communication.
00:27:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's all about communication. And they're right in that they need help with communication. But what they're missing is that there are a lot of other moving parts that are resulting in the communication that's not working. So managing conflict is stressing that fifth floor, stressing the importance of we need to have conflict, healthy conflict in our relationship. I actually worry about couples that come in and say, we don't ever have conflict. We don't ever argue. Like, that's curious. Like, well, then why are you on my couch?
00:27:48
Speaker
Right? And it turns out that this couple, yeah, you don't argue, you don't have conflict, but that's because you don't talk about the things that are naturally conflictual in your relationship. Right. And that causes problems, you just kind of go sideways. So managing conflict is...
00:28:04
Speaker
helping couples through skills and activities that you do with Gottman to understand you need to have conflict, but it needs to be healthy conflict. Not fighting. Fighting is different. Ideally, you don't fight, but you do have to have conflict. You do have to have disagreements. You have to have feelings that come up. You can't be in a relationship at least, you know, after the two-year limerence honeymoon period and not have
00:28:26
Speaker
reasons for conflict. But conflict is actually important and it's actually a tool. Could you just quick differentiate between the two? Because a lot of couples come in, just like I agree with you, we work on healthier communication. I feel like 99% of couples I see that is something that they want to work on.
00:28:44
Speaker
But can you just quick sidebar on conflict versus fight? Like with how you mean it because I think that's an important because a lot of people say, well, we fought, we fight. And sometimes it is a fight. And I'll let you explain. Sometimes I think it's not. I think they just think it's a fight. Can you just kind of differentiate those a little bit? Yeah, that's a great point. Some people think they're fighting when they're just having healthy conflict. Some people think this is healthy conflict. And it's like, no, actually, this is the kind of fighting that is not working. Yeah.
00:29:12
Speaker
So conflict, there's a lot we could say about that, Travis, of distinguishing conflict from fighting. Conflict does involve expressing emotions, expressing hurt, expressing unmet needs, expressing what's bothering you, making requests for things. It can include feeling distant, feeling misunderstood. I mean, all sorts of things that are difficult about an interaction like that. But what happens in fighting might be things like name calling.
00:29:41
Speaker
Criticism and it's important to make a distinction between criticism and a complaint. A complaint is I'm upset about something you're doing. A criticism is I'm upset about something that you are. A complaint is healthy. A complaint gets a bad rap. A complaint is I need to talk to you about this thing that's not working for me.
00:29:57
Speaker
Criticism is I need to talk about something about your character and that's something totally different and that's often part of fighting so criticism and contempt Which is the you know, the cousin of and you have a great video Travis on on what the Gottman's called the four horsemen I don't know the world time to get into that now, but but your video does a great job of explaining the four horsemen I just hit on two of them criticism and contempt and we definitely say I imagine you would say that that those two are definitely part of
00:30:23
Speaker
Yeah, I would totally agree. That's a fight. That's when things get nasty and then we hurt, right? We get hurt. And I like the differentiation. I think it's helpful because again, depending on people's upbringing, like you said, like what did you see in your home? Going back to that, which is so important, which I think ties into
00:30:42
Speaker
Attachment, secure attachment, it's a whole other topic, but I think an important piece of all this is what do we see, what was modeled, and what's our attachment style, and how do we deal with conflict? And so if fighting was normal in our home, then that's what we're going to see. That's conflict to us, right? That's a fight, and that becomes normal.
00:31:00
Speaker
Um, and so it's easy to go down that path, but I think seeing it from a therapy, this perspective is like, no, five is only when we get stuck in contempt of criticism or stonewalling and defensiveness. Right. Is that the one stonewalling and, um, right. Defensives. Yeah. Um, that these things that makes that, that takes the conflict and actually creates more pain and suffering and disconnection. Right. Where conflict enables us to navigate toward having a complaint and expressing emotions and needs, not by attacking.
00:31:30
Speaker
But by inviting in and seeking curiosity to then allow the cup our partner to see us Vulnerability and then to have a repair like let's repair here. Let's actually connect here and Let's make it let's make a change right and and you have to be able to complain hey when you you know when you use this tone it impacts me right or when you Slam your hand down on the table like it I get nervous and it's hard to stay connected right or when you right when you when you walk away and
00:32:00
Speaker
in the middle of me talking like a complaint that it makes me feel like you don't care about me. Like those are things that the partner needs to know. It's like, Oh, maybe I shouldn't walk away again. You know, maybe I should not say my hand on the table because I don't want that to affect you. Right. So I think it's helpful. I'm so thank you for giving a little bit of a nuance there. Cause I think it's important as you talk about this fifth floor of conflict, right? To, to have a little bit of understanding. So coming back to conflict, what, why is that important to address this stuff? And within that, that realm of conflict versus fighting?
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Right, we need to have conflict. If we don't have conflict, it means we are not, we are a couple who is not talking about the things that need to be talked about. Because some of the stuff in a relationship is, is by nature, conflictual. It's not fighting, though.
00:32:45
Speaker
And our children are watching. When I have a new client, you probably do this too, Travis. I always ask, how did your parents fight? Did they fight? How did they handle conflict? Did they repair? How did they talk to each other when someone was upset? Did they listen? Did they have the goal of repairing versus?
00:33:00
Speaker
the goal of winning or being right or humiliating their partner. Our children are absolutely watching that. It's one of the most important things that we can model. We do still need to model conflict. I worry about children and say, I don't think my parents ever thought. It's like, well, that means they didn't do that in front of you. And that's not necessarily bad, but if we can have healthy conflict, if we can get ourselves to do that as a couple,
00:33:23
Speaker
then we should actually do that in front of our children because we're teaching them that adults have differences and they work them out, and they work them out in healthy ways. Yeah, that's a great pitch. I think this, not every conflict needs to be in front of kids, but I think there's a need and argument to say that we need, we got to show them how healthy conflict looks. Otherwise, they're going to grow up and never see it. Like you said, if they never fought, what am I going to do now? I don't know what to do.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I might get into a relationship where I think you don't have conflict, right? The absence of something means like, oh, this must be in a bad relationship than if I have conflict, right? So I think it's so important for those listening to build a model of age appropriate, obviously, you know, age appropriate. You know, you may need to like have the conflict in the room and then come back and kind of play it out again sometimes. I mean, there's different things to do depending on what it is.
00:34:11
Speaker
Thank you for saying that Travis. I'm hearing myself. I didn't, I didn't say the age appropriate part that you're totally right. And that's, I just implied that. And I'm glad you brought that up. We need to not have bring adult problems into the minds of children, right? It absolutely needs to be appropriate. I love that idea of like, let's, let's have the real talk as adults behind closed doors. And now let's go back out and let's, let's model some of that stuff that's appropriate for the age of our children and developmental stage. That's great.
00:34:38
Speaker
It's almost like a role play, kind of like role playing. It's like in kids books and you read about, what would Jimmy do if Jimmy got hit? And kids are actually surprisingly really good at answering that question. But I think again, showing parents to do that, what a great way to equip your kid. And I think we don't think about that, but what a great way to equip your kid for future relationships to show them how to navigate healthy conflict. You just handed them a secret weapon.
00:35:04
Speaker
That means they probably won't end up on one of our couches most likely if they see it done healthily I would make it I'm making a big claim but I would say probably because I would most people coming in our office and you tell me but Often what they say is well, we just yelled at each other that that's a big one Well, everyone just screamed at each other or everyone's run in the room and I'm like, well, what happened next?
00:35:25
Speaker
Oh, I just woke up the next day and no one said anything about anything. We went back to normal, you know? And those are some of the common things I hear about conflict. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's floor five. So we talked about the bottom three floors of friendship and then I skipped a four or five of managing conflict. And what we say is that if your floor is a friendship, we're working pretty well. And if you're managing conflict, the fifth floor pretty well.
00:35:47
Speaker
then you get the fourth floor by default the fourth floor is called the positive perspective so being the positive perspective versus the negative perspective. What that means is if you're in the positive perspective then you're in a state in your relationship where you're more likely to assume positive intent with your partner like if they say something where it's like.
00:36:07
Speaker
Was that passive aggressive or was that meant to be criticism? People in the positive perspective are more likely to be able to give their partner the benefit of the doubt and assume that that's not them trying to pick a fight and that, like, we're okay. A lot of couples, almost always, couples come into couples therapy in the negative perspective. They are on edge. They are looking for criticism or contempt. They're expecting for something to, for their partner to be saying something maybe with an ulterior motive. Not all couples, but I work with a lot of high-conflict couples, so unhealthy conflict.
00:36:36
Speaker
So I hear a lot of that. And so what we say about the fourth floor is there isn't anything that you can do directly to affect that. With all these other floors, we have tons of Gottman activities that are really neat things to do in session and do at home that totally help work on those floors if you need help. There isn't an activity for the positive perspective, but you don't need an activity. What you need to do is to shore up floors one through three and five, and that will help move you more into the positive perspective by default. Does that make sense?
00:37:04
Speaker
Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. I love it. I like that because you're right. If you're bottom three floors, right? Or if you don't really know your partner with love maps, if you're not nurturing, fond, assamoration, right? If you're not doing these things, you're going to have most likely more edgy perspective and be jumpy to jump to conclusions often in a negative way about what your partner must be thinking you're doing and the behavior behind it. Like I think, you know, having a judgmental stance about them, right? Often in a negative way.
00:37:30
Speaker
But if you fix that, it's like a natural byproduct. Yeah, it totally makes sense. So those listening, yeah, if you fix that, if you're nurturing fondness and admiration, it's hard to have a negative view of your partner if you're investing daily in fondness and admiration because you're constantly filling that bucket, so to speak.
00:37:46
Speaker
positive things about your partner and you're getting it back too, which feels good, right? It actually has a good feeling effect versus the effect, right? It's you get the eye contact and the engagement, which you feel better. You feel seen, right? You feel heard. You feel noticed. You feel appreciated. So that totally makes sense. Yeah. Well, you should really be the one explaining this Travis. I want to go back and listen to this. I love some of the ways you just described some of this stuff. That's, that's a really great way to pick. Well, this is when you get two therapists in a room when we talk about stuff.
00:38:15
Speaker
It's actually kind of fun. It's like, oh yeah, I liked how you said that. It's like, it's just, it's cool. Two therapists in a room. We get to, we're talking shop. It's fun and funny sidebar. I did IT previously too before I became a therapist. So I didn't never share that. So I was, I did domain name registration and backend work with MySQL. So geek me out for a second. All right. Anyway, back to the show. And now for a short break.
00:38:42
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to BuyMeACoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health. And all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing into production, into
00:39:04
Speaker
continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads.
Supporting Life Dreams and Cultural Rituals
00:39:12
Speaker
Thanks, and let's get back to the show. Okay, so what's after five? Yeah, the sixth floor, making life dreams come true. And that floor is about knowing what gives your partner meaning, value, purpose, joy, passion,
00:39:29
Speaker
What matters to them? What's their life about? What do they want their life to be about? What is their life mission? What are their life dreams? Knowing those things about your partner but also doing your part as their spouse to help make those things happen. And it could be big things like I know my partner has always dreamed about living on a farm, right? So I'm gonna see, I'm willing to help do my part to gear our life so that we end up living in a farm because that is my partner's dream.
00:39:55
Speaker
That's the big stuff. But it's a lot of little stuff, more day-to-day stuff. Maybe your partner is much more social than you are and really needs to be able to connect more with people. You don't, but they do. So maybe what you do is you offer to take the kids on Tuesday nights and your partner goes out and gets together with their friends as a regular meeting to help get that need met. Or maybe when your partner asks you to go out and do more social things, you don't want to, but they
00:40:21
Speaker
They need it, you know that about them and so you're more, you say yes more times than you would if you make concessions because it's like this really matters to you. So, what's important to your partner beyond being your partner and beyond being a parent, right? They're their own person who has all sorts of things about them that they might want in their life and within reason, let me help try to make that happen for you. And in turn, I'm also hoping that you're going to help try to make some of that stuff happen for me too.
00:40:47
Speaker
I think with that, it sounds like that's gonna require, obviously, being a higher floor. And you tell me, but I would assume that you really need to have strength in those bottom floors before we can really, I would say, effectively really be able to have that conversation. Because I'm trying to imagine a couple of, if the bottom floors are kind of run down and murky and not functioning, right? If you try to talk about dreams, I'm just trying to, you know, I'm just imagining that that's probably not gonna go very well with a couple.
00:41:15
Speaker
I don't really see a dream being validated or, you know, a partner sacrificing to say, you know, I know this is important, so I'm going to give this to you. I would probably see it actually go the exact opposite way at the bottom. Floors aren't really taken care of.
00:41:34
Speaker
A lot of times, people think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs with this, and I don't expect everyone to know what that is, but this triangle of, you know, what are the, on the bottom floor, these core things, I need food, I need water, I need shelter, and then up the next floor is, actually, I don't, I'm not the person to ask about this, but, and you might know better than I do, Travis.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah, there are fundamental things that we need and the things on top of that, we can't go there until we have some fundamental things. There's some higher level stuff in my day-to-day existence, won't matter if I have a Newton in 48 hours.
00:42:11
Speaker
or if I'm chronically under slept because I'm in some situation. So yes, to bring it back to the house, we can work on any of these floors or pillars at any time. It doesn't have to come in an order, but you're right that if our fundamental floors aren't there, a friendship, we need to really prioritize them.
00:42:30
Speaker
And the dreams too, I like that it's both big and small or meet you anywhere in between, whether it's I want to live on a farm to, you know, really love social things and doing that for your partner because that's going to go, you know, if you have a strong friendship, you're going to want to do that for your partner. And your partner is going to do that for you. And I would assume too with this floor that this one, just like the other ones, probably just like the first floor of like the love map, is that,
00:42:54
Speaker
I would assume over the lifespan of a relationship, maybe, you know, year one as a couple to year 30, that some of those dreams might change. That's right. Some of those things might need to be updated. Would that be safe to say?
00:43:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So being, talking about this throughout your relationship together and how are things changing because people are going to change. And so the relationship is going to change. So let's be talking along the way and let's, let's be agile and adapt with each other. And that includes what our, what our life dreams are. Absolutely big and small. Yeah. So what's the next one? Where are we going next?
00:43:25
Speaker
So the top floor, creating shared meaning. I described that as your relationship has a culture. Your relationship is its own culture. You came from a culture, which was your family origin culture and possibly the religious factors in that culture and your ethnic background in that culture. Each of you came from a bunch of culture and traditions in your childhoods. But now you're adults and you're in a relationship.
00:43:49
Speaker
And that's its own culture with its own traditions. Anything from how you two greet each other in the morning when you wake up. Do you say good morning? Do you kiss? Do you ask about each other's day? Do you sit down over coffee or tea and connect? Or do you do something different? Do you talk during the day? If so, is it phone, email? Are you checking in in a meaningful way? Do you not talk at all?
00:44:09
Speaker
What are your rituals about when you see each other again? When someone maybe comes home from work? Do you hug? Do you kiss? Do you say I love you? Do you say how is your day? Who initiates intimacy? How does that go when you do have intimacy? How do you handle birthdays, anniversaries, all these rituals of ways that you do your relationship? And we ask couples to take a look at the rituals in the relationship and say which of these are there because you love them, you want them, they're there on purpose. Let's keep those.
00:44:38
Speaker
But what are some rituals that you inevitably fallen into some patterns that are not what you want an example might be a couple used to Let's say maybe before they children or maybe before a job change They maybe someone went off to work and the couple their ritual was when I'm leaving I say hey, honey I'm going and partner comes up and they have a hug and a kiss and they look each other out in the eyes and one of them says the one that's not leaving says, you know drive carefully and
00:45:05
Speaker
Something like that. That's their ritual. But let's say they have children and they have a totally different morning routine, of course. And they've stopped doing that. And now someone goes off to work and instead it's, hey, honey, I'm going. And then they leave. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But that might not be a moment of connection that this couple used to have and may want. And often in these conversations, when we talk about that, it resonates. And people start to think and they start to say, boy, there are a lot of things that we do.
00:45:32
Speaker
that I wish we didn't do or a lot of things we used to do that are really missed that helped me to feel connected to you. And so I love when they take inventory on how we doing things in our day-to-day life and which of those do we want to tweak.
00:45:45
Speaker
I like that too. It's a lot of these things we need to have regular conversations around and updating. And going back to the app analogy I always use from people I work with is like, hey, when was the last time you updated it? When was the last time you updated the file, right? It's regular updates for a reason because it's easy, you know, we get busy in life just no matter if, even if you don't have kids, like life just happens, your jobs, right? I mean, even a couple's...
00:46:09
Speaker
It doesn't matter. It's easy to get just into the busyness of life and things just, you don't think about them and how they can impact you and make assumptions and how important it is to come back to these things and what are those ways that we connect and what do we actually value? Do we actually value this? Is this something that we like doing? And what do we want to create from our family too? And also I think with that, what I'm hearing is each person coming in from the couple is going to have
00:46:35
Speaker
You know values and stuff from their families of origin Yeah, right that might look a little different and absolutely this new unit, right? Yeah, or very different. How do we never and you're right? Yeah The common denominator here is talking
00:46:50
Speaker
Right, in every relationship. Communication. Yeah, communication, exactly. And it's so obvious, of course, we need to talk. But I always ask couples, when do you talk? How often do you talk? And often, especially with children, they're like, we talk all the time. It's like, about what? And it's like, why don't we talk about logistics? We talk about maintaining our household. We talk about how to keep the kids going to practice today. And all the stuff, they don't talk about each other. And so we say, build into your life.
00:47:18
Speaker
as often as you can, some brief talk about each other, meaningful talk between these two people leaving the house out of it and children out of it. But then also the Gottmans would love any couple to have once a week to have, they call it the state of the union talk. What is the state of our union? Let's talk for an hour without distraction. How are we doing? What do you want to say to me? What do I want to say to you? What do we need to talk about? Hey, we had a fight on Wednesday and it's Saturday now. How are you feeling about that? Is there anything that you need from me about what happened for us?
00:47:47
Speaker
that would be reparative to you. But like, how are we doing? And the couples that do that, I'm going to be honest, a lot of couples don't. I always try to get couples to do a lot of stuff like that and people don't for their own reasons. You're laughing because every therapist knows, oh yeah, a lot of clients don't do their home play or homework. But those that do this, love it.
00:48:08
Speaker
They say it's really useful and I say claim it Don't set a day in time every week and don't let something get in the way of it There are certain things that you don't let life get in the way of let that be this This is one of the most important things for you to do
00:48:22
Speaker
Yeah, spot on. Absolutely. Make this the priority and the state of the union is talk. And I think in that, doesn't he have something? I'm thinking, you tell me, isn't there something called like the poop detector or like the poop leader or the poop? What is it? Is it called the poop detector?
00:48:38
Speaker
I'm the wrong person to ask about that, but I do know there is that term. Yeah, I think it will Google this later, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with where you know, what is it's allowing a complaint to talk about address it sooner before it like stinks up the whole house essentially I think is the analogy is like.
00:48:56
Speaker
point the poop out soon, or in case you got kids, where's that poopy diaper, you know, let's get this thing out and identify what it is. It's almost like it's the complaint, hey, when you did this, it affected me this way. It's like, hey, when it's trying to do the repair soon, so it doesn't just kind of take over. I think they call it the poop detector. So, anyway.
00:49:15
Speaker
I remember laughing when I read that. I was like, that's a great analogy. I love it. Yeah, what I say is what doesn't get talked about gets acted out. Oh, yeah. Like the stuff that we're not talking about, it's going to leak out. It's going to show up in our day. It's going to show up in how much I don't look at you when I'm around you because I'm upset and how much I don't touch you when I'm walking by you because I'm upset. Yeah.
00:49:37
Speaker
it's important to talk about all this stuff. So yeah, that's common in really all these floors so far as we've got to talk about this stuff. And the Gottman approach, if you try to choose to go that way, gives you a bunch of tangible exercises.
00:49:48
Speaker
And so what are the pillars now? What are the last two pieces? Yeah, trust and commitment. And they're pillars because if you don't have pillars in the house, the house falls down. If you don't have trust and commitment, then it's pretty hard to have a marriage. So trust can be the obvious things that we think of with trust. A lot of people have monogamous relationships where trust is don't sleep with somebody else.
00:50:09
Speaker
But trust is also, when you say you're going to do something, do it. Because when you don't do it, then on a little level that adds up, I don't feel like I can trust you. And that matters. And then commitment is obvious. Are we both in this? Are we both willing to do our own work and prioritize the relationship? I prioritize you, you prioritize me. We are committed to, until some day, if we decide, of course, that we're not going to, but until that day,
00:50:38
Speaker
That doesn't come but like I'm in this with you and part of me being committed and into this with you is Me helping to build this house my half of this house because I gotta own that and you can't do my part Hmm. Yeah, I wonder if you think of trust and commitment differently. I I would bet Travis that you have a different way of describing those I
00:50:59
Speaker
No, I think it's well said. I think they're obvious in the sense that, yeah, you got to be committed. I would say you got to set intention. It has to be priority. Yeah, intention. And I think that intention can get lost when big life changes happen, especially with I think a big one for a lot of people and reading a lot of Gottman's work, the research says having kids is a big one.
Impact of Parenthood on Relationships
00:51:28
Speaker
Because it changes the dynamic on so many levels. It's a big change. And for some, it's significant depending on the needs of their children. There's so many other factors too. They can go into that. What does your child need?
00:51:46
Speaker
And that can really take a toll on a couple, too, depending on the needs, right? And the priority shift, and I think balancing, I think, for a lot of couples with small children is difficult. It's not always easy in trying to navigate that. And I think the Gottman method really, really is so applicable to all couples. But even, I would say, I'd make the argument, really couples with kids in their life, small children or teenage children.
00:52:16
Speaker
I would say it's even more important to really take this seriously because of like you kept hitting is like we're the model. So it's like another layer on top of, you know, not just us, but it's about this next generation that we're essentially showing this to and modeling this to and how we can get stuck in the parent role. You mentioned that earlier, I'm not sure which level, but how the parent role can, we can forget about our,
00:52:43
Speaker
intimacy, right, in our relationship because we get stuck on, I think you said when couples talk, what are they talking about? They're talking about just like the kid stuff, which we have to, we need to of course, right? Obviously it's an important thing, but what can get lost is that we don't act, we don't actually talk about ourselves.
00:52:59
Speaker
and why we need that State of the Union speech and the conversation to set an intention to actually check in with how we're doing on top of the children because we can get losses. We do go to mom and dad role or whatever our role is, parent role, but then our partner roles get lost or our dating roles get lost. And I like to think of it this way. He's like, okay,
00:53:18
Speaker
you know, you do the parent thing well, you guys got that down. And I think the kind of partner, partner, husband, wife, whatever the makeup is, like, that's more, I feel like more responsibility stuff and, you know, things like that and commitment. But then I always think of the dating part that gets lost. Like the romantic part of like when you first started dating, how you would sacrifice,
00:53:40
Speaker
You know sleep to ghost and I know things evolve and change but you really see your partner in such a different light in that lens in that area and almost like reclaiming that part in the commitment of like not not letting that part kind of die down but kind of nurturing that piece of the fun the romance the which I know it can be hard with small children so you have to get creative but
00:54:02
Speaker
I think making it a priority is so neat, especially with having children and also navigating, you know, for a lot of families, having kids, you gotta navigate a whole lot of changes that first few years of having kids. Things change. I think that's another reason why this could happen is because, hey, maybe you used to connect a lot. You had more sex, like things, you know, things like that were happening and now you have kids, it's like, wow, we haven't slept together and you know, it's been a while, right? It's been a hot minute or we're not, maybe we used to do it more regularly. Now,
00:54:30
Speaker
We're lucky if we, once a month, if that, you know, right now, you know, so I think there's some other things that we have, parents have to navigate. And I think having more of the reason to have a conversation, because especially in those moments, if, if someone's tired, because they've been with the kids all day and then someone makes a bed, it's like that can really hit hard. And it's like, Oof, right? That shush gets really loud.
00:54:53
Speaker
and the need to really have a conversation to not let that thing just simmer and boil over. So I think this is, I think that the relationship house really is so applicable to all couples, right? With, without kids, you know, with dogs, with cats, with whatever. It's so needed, whatever the makeup is, because it really is. It's so foundational and it makes sense, like you said at the beginning. This makes sense and some of it seems so
00:55:20
Speaker
simple in theory but sometimes in practice we just don't do the fundamentals and we got to come back to the fundamentals. It's like we got to practice those reps over and over and over again. It's simple but it's not easy. Oh yeah. It's simple because it takes a lot of it takes intention in prioritizing because you know it's amazing what we prioritize in our life and not to those things other things in life aren't bad you know they're fine but again like you said like this is the most important relationship like our partner like this is the relationship.
00:55:46
Speaker
and we need to invest in it. We need to be committed and intention and intend what we're doing and nurture it and all those things to make it grow. It's like, dude, if you're not watering your garden out there, all your fruits and vegetables are gone. Like if, you know, you can't expect it to produce fruit or vegetables if you don't water it ever or give it fertilizer. It's just, you're not going to have much. Now some tomatoes are pretty, you know, drop resistant, but we're not going to go into the weeds there.
00:56:15
Speaker
you really need
Encouragement for Men's Personal Growth
00:56:16
Speaker
to take care of each other. And so as we kind of come to a close, as we wrap this up, what's what's one thing that you like working with men you see would be most helpful for them to hear within this model to encourage them with?
00:56:28
Speaker
What I would suggest for men is to take the interesting curiosity and the intro that they're getting from listening to this and to dive deeper into it. Because we're doing a once over, but of course to really get the value of the Gottman approach, it is to buy books or to do the workshops. There's the couples weekend or it is, there's so many tools. You can go to Gottman.com and explore all sorts of neat ways to help.
00:56:55
Speaker
I would dive into resources. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's already been, it's out there. The answers are out there. But we have to be, especially men, I think really need to be willing to go out and learn what they don't know to figure out what their blind spots are. And like, what are these parts that we've talked about today? What are already strengths from me? And what am I willing to learn and accept that are my areas for growth?
00:57:20
Speaker
And then and then do it. I mean, I was going to say, I mean, I always suggest therapy for especially if someone is an adult who's never been in therapy. I think anyone once you get through childhood, I think you should go through at least a year of intensive therapy to to figure out what's going on with you, what your childhood was, what what your work is.
00:57:39
Speaker
And so, you know, part of my answer always, especially for men, is do some individual therapy. Couples therapy is wonderful too. And there's overlap, of course, between your individual work and doing couples work. But there's also a lot of difference. And there are a lot of things that an individual therapist would do with you that a couples therapist can't because we're talking about other stuff.
00:57:56
Speaker
Right, because, yeah, we're balancing the couple, right, when it's hard to go deeper. And I would say, too, with that, do the research. And I would, you know, would that be a sign? It's not to be obvious, but I think a lot of men still struggle with this concept that I'm going to say right now. Would it be a sign of weakness or strength to admit that they need to learn more and don't have it all figured out?
00:58:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's a sign of strength to admit, I don't know at all. Yeah, and I love that you brought that up because you and I hear that all the time, right? I'm so upset with society that we have somehow given the message that it is weak to ask for help. That is so wrong. It's courageous to ask for help.
00:58:32
Speaker
Right. Yeah, it truly is. And we do not say that just for the sake of saying it. We say it because we work with men, we are men. I know I felt it at one point when I was younger and wasn't asking.
00:58:48
Speaker
It takes a lot of courage and strength to admit it, especially in a culture that says you're weak because you're going against all that cultural norm of like, well, don't do this. And I'm pushing up against that. So it takes a lot. I mean, even guys coming to therapy, I'd say if you're coming to therapy for men, hey, that's sometimes the biggest and hardest step just to put your foot in the door. So Justin, where can we find your work? If people want to reach out and get some support and help if they're in the, you know, Washington, Seattle area, where can we find your details?
00:59:18
Speaker
Sure. So they would need to be in Washington State if they worked with me. The website is claritycounselingseattle.com. I've had clarity counseling Seattle for 13 years. And you can also, if you can remember my name, you can Google me and find me. I'm always happy for anyone to reach out by email or phone, and I'll answer questions. Or if it can't work with me, I'm going to be mutually full, honestly.
00:59:38
Speaker
If you can work with one of my therapists, great. We're often full, but I love giving referrals out for amazing relationship therapists, amazing therapists who work really great with men. I know of some really great men's groups. I mean, I've got all sorts of resources and I really believe in the cause. So if you can find me online, that's probably the best way and I will always make time to chat with people. You don't need to become a client. I love helping the public.
01:00:01
Speaker
Well, thank you Justin and all those listening. All this stuff is going to be linked in the podcast notes or up here in Washington on YouTube. It's going to be in the description, clickable links, hyperlinks to take you to Justin's website just to make it simple for you. And if you are in the area, which is also, you know, those that don't know, there's licensing rules and regulations around licenses and state licensure. That's why I'm in California. Not that why, but in California, I can only see people who reside in California. Same with Washington.
01:00:29
Speaker
We won't get into that. It's a whole other show. But thank you, Justin, for being on tonight. I think it's so helpful to begin to lay this groundwork, helping men, helping dads, whether they have kids or not. This is such a helpful model for beginning to work through relationships. A great place to start. Have a great evening. Thanks for all that you're doing. And you keep doing what you're doing to help men up there. It's such needed work. So I thank you for what you're doing and the impact you're having on the men in the Seattle, Washington area.
01:00:59
Speaker
Thank you and have a good night. Oh, thanks Travis. I appreciate that. Yeah. See ya. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.