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SUMMER ROAD TRIP - Ohio & Oklahoma
110 Plays3 years ago
Well we are getting towards the end of our journey, but still have a few stops to go!
Oklahoma (1:36 - 33:42) Lisa tells us a story of why you should NEVER get your surgeons off a Craig's List type website, nor have said surgery in the middle of the forest in a cabin.
Ohio (33:43 - end) Faith goes on a long twisted tale Pearl Bryan and why pennies are left heads up on her tombstone.
As always, we ADORE hearing from you all, you guys are amazing, so send us a note twistedtalestruecrime@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Technical Issues
00:00:03
Speaker
Well, good afternoon, morning, evening, whatever time of day you are here. And thanks for tuning in. This is Faith and... This is Lisa. Sorry, I'm struggling. My microphone came apart. Give me a minute. As usual. And we are here to bring you on another road trip with
Reunion Excitement in 'Twisted Tales'
00:00:21
Speaker
Twisted Tales. Truth growing. What? What? And we are actually back together in person. What? What?
00:00:27
Speaker
all i had shut up yeah i'm trying to just sit here and talk because you're throwing things under the table and crawling and you're sitting cross-eyed and i did say sitting cross-eyed but i didn't mean it that way i like to see indian style you know do you see what do you people see what i have to deal with
Deciding the Storyteller
00:00:45
Speaker
Anyway, God forbid I speak. It'd be nice if you stop for the most part, yeah. Notice, notice there was no one else laughing, mostly because it's just you and me, and I didn't find it humorous at all. Just you and I up here.
00:00:59
Speaker
All right, so rock, paper, scissors for who goes first. Absolutely. We have done this in a minute. I know. In my right hand. Well, I don't know. Maybe I'll win more with my left. Ready? Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Dang it. Game off. We've tied a lot guys. That's a lot of ties. All right, ready? Rock, paper, scissors, shoot.
00:01:19
Speaker
and Lisa lost. That's all right. I've been kind of excited to tell my story so I don't feel bad. Okay. Oh man. So where are you going tonight Lisa?
Lisa Sings 'Oklahoma'
00:01:30
Speaker
Oklahoma where the wind goes blaring through the. You don't even know. I lost the words. Why would you even like why would you even try? It's where the wind goes whistling through the plains. But I. Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker
It whistled through my head. I couldn't I know it's really hard to huh It's been a long week and a long life and a long month and a long year and a long day So it's
Podcast Delays and Promises
00:01:54
Speaker
like a wind tunnel. It's it just happens anyway We are very sorry that we didn't drop last night today is Wednesday My dad wound up having to go back into the hospital things got a little chaotic again, but we are back here with you tonight
00:02:07
Speaker
And you're getting to a week. So I said the days didn't
Listener Feedback and Podcast Critique
00:02:10
Speaker
matter. You guys are lovely people and have a lot of grace and mercy. So let's pull that grace and mercy out and definitely have a lot of grace and mercy. We had so many people listen to our last few podcasts. It was like intense. If you want to go give us five stars, that'd be perfect. In the comment section, you could literally put anything like
00:02:25
Speaker
I like tomatoes and that's fine. I like that we don't go super into depth about following us a lot of times because like there are a lot of these ones that I've been listening to lately where it's like the first five minutes of them being like, you can follow us. Here's my picture. No, bro. I put it in the link. If you want to want to go down the links and and give us a chance again. That's fine. Oklahoma. I'm not doing it. But the wind goes whistling through the blades. All right. Oklahoma.
00:02:53
Speaker
Alright, so I am not super great at pronouncing other people's, uh, cities, all that kind of good stuff. We're just not going to pronunciation. I mean, in reality, I can say it one way and then you're going to say it another way and I can say it the way that it's spelled and you're going to say it completely different. And that's why we went to Tennessee. Tomato, tomato. I was going to say it like it's spelled Maryville in Tennessee, but we call it Merville. So I may never be right. It's okay though.
00:03:18
Speaker
He won't be just going off of pure statistics and background evidence. There's a lot of background evidence for my stupidity. That's OK.
Bob Lee Allen's Crimes
00:03:26
Speaker
All right. So the Leflore County District Attorney's Office filed court documents to lure. It sounds all fancy and like I was going to say if I didn't get that right, it could just be like more. No, I like I like the floor, even though it's probably like lower. Well, I got the annunciation from like Harry Potter. Yeah. Do you remember that? OK.
00:03:46
Speaker
Uh, that was a really dumb reference. I'm going back into it. So the LeFlore County district attorney's office filed court documents on Wednesday, October 21st, accusing Bob Lee Allen. Sorry, uh, Fates Red Bull almost bit the dust because I can't see my, uh, tablet here. Bob Lee Allen, who's 53 and Thomas Evans Gates, who is 43 of Weister, Oklahoma for the following crimes. Weister?
00:04:10
Speaker
Like Worcestershire sauce? Maybe it's W-I-S-T-E-R. Worcestershire. I like Worcestershire. Either way, I'm cool. First count, conspiracy to commit unlicensed surgery. Aw, ma'am. Second count, practicing medicine without a license. Goes on with the first count. Third count, maiming, which carries the longest sentence, basically. The fourth count, unlawful use of communication facility. What the heck?
00:04:35
Speaker
fifth count district distribution of a controlled slash dangerous substance six count assault slash battery with a dangerous weapon seventh count hold on i'm not done yet seventh count failure to bury a dead human member like cover up their crime they got a count for that it'll it'll make sense it'll make
00:04:57
Speaker
it'll make sense here in a bit all right you just keep munching on whatever hot fries or whatever you got hot fries i had gummy life savers a minute ago all right count uh eighth count possession of controlled dangerous substance she's so pete ninth count unlawful possession of drug paraphernalia and they almost had yachty there
00:05:16
Speaker
It could have gone a lot. It wouldn't have gone a lot longer. Those were literally the nights because that's not enough. Yeah. On October 14th, 2020, a local Oklahoma hospital calls the police. They had admitted a 28 year old Virginia man who was in rough shape. The police came to take this kid statement and from the unnamed gentleman and the Tory, the story that he told was like a sci-fi horror movie, it sounds like.
00:05:43
Speaker
Well, you'll see and you can you can make your own judgment call. All right. So the man told police that a few weeks ago he was searching online about certain castration during castration.
Victim's Castration Request
00:05:54
Speaker
During his search, he happened upon a man named Alan. I'm sorry. Castration should never be. You should never find your castration person on the yellow pages or like a Google review. But like that was like the first part of the story that I was like, what?
00:06:09
Speaker
Why would you not go to the hospital? I can understand you want to do research about castration. All right. Anyway, so during a search, he happened upon this man named Alan. He reached out to him about the procedure. They chatted online. They did a Skype call. Alan told him he had 15 years of experience. He could do the surgery for free if he would just come to Oklahoma.
00:06:32
Speaker
And what? His mama's basement? No. So the 28 year old victim booked his flight in Leper, Oklahoma. Alan himself picked up the man from the airport and took him to a secluded cabin in the woods. Game off. That's what I'm like. I've changed my mind. I like my slimmers. Here's the difference between men and women. Any woman at this point would have been like, I'm about to die. Yeah. You know, not not that women don't make bad choices. They absolutely do. They get suckered into all kinds of
00:07:00
Speaker
Oh, crap, crap online. Everybody does. But I feel like at that point, maybe, maybe in a woman's mind, you're taking me deep into the woods right now into the secluded cabin where nobody can hear me scream. Yeah. No, this screams like red flag. But hey, I, you know, I could just be speaking, be speaking out of my butt. I don't even know. I don't think you are. No. So after entering the home, Alan led him into a room that had a wooden table that was covered in surgical
00:07:29
Speaker
No, that's when I'm like, yes, bro. Yeah. And that was where he was to lay during his procedure. I say procedure that way because I'm putting it in quotes right now below the table so that they can't see me put them in quotes because I know nobody can see me. But I hope that you understand that because it was in fact a person Allen prepped him by wiping his groin down and injecting him with numbing medicine.
00:07:53
Speaker
No. In that region. You bring me to a cabin in the woods and say I'm going to do surgery. No, you're going to steal all my organs and I'm going to be dead or you're going to experiment on me. I'm gone. I mean, apparently there's just a lot of trust here. All right. You don't know them. How is their trust? There shouldn't be. And that was kind of like the main reason I picked this story was, guys, I'm not trying to laugh tumor as I laughed awkward in it. I kind of just don't get. You get our personalities at this point.
00:08:18
Speaker
like meeting anyone online and being like, Oh my gosh, like, let me let you perform any kind of surgery whatsoever. No, but I get, I personally, I get sketched out by like every day. I don't do the only thing I ordered online is, um, Amazon products. Yeah. Like that's legit it something. Yeah. But I'm not, I'm not going
00:08:39
Speaker
And even then, I usually send them to my work. That way, they don't have my home address. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not purchasing a surgery and ordering a physician online. No. What do you go to? Dark web backslash castration dot com. Now, that's only how you find Hitman. Hitman. Yeah. Wow.
00:08:56
Speaker
I shall understand how, in your mind, this is a good setup. Like, this is not for nothing. He's going for his Ghibli bits. Like, the crown and jewels of the family, if you... What happens if he botches it? Yeah. You have an Indian set of an alley. That was not what you ordered. This is so messed up, but I have to say it only because I was talking to a girl at work today, and I was telling her a little bit about my podcast because I was really excited about it. Because, like, I feel like I've got you faith today. And she goes, well, at least that guy won't be in the gene pool anymore.
00:09:23
Speaker
Sorry, that's so messed up. But like, wow, people wake up. And in fact, speaking of waking up, this man was in fact away through the entire operation. Oh, hell no. He in the statement that he gave police that he said that at the end of the surgery, Alan said that he was going to eat the parts he was removing and laughed, saying he was a cannibal. Pause rewind.
Cannibalistic Confession
00:09:48
Speaker
OK, you do the baby.
00:09:51
Speaker
He was awake, there was an entire surgery, and at the end of the surgery, Alan, er, I'm sorry, the unknown victim told police that Alan said he was going to eat the parts he was removing, laughed, and stated he was a cannibal.
00:10:08
Speaker
I would like to know why there are so many flapping cannibals in the US the army hammer situation. Maybe I just like seek out the cannibal ones only because I don't know like army hammers is this was was like a movie star. Did you know?
00:10:23
Speaker
and audience I don't know if you know but I was told by same friend at work that they have legitimately vegan human meat human meat that is supposed to taste like human flesh now I have never researched this but she told me this I'm gonna have to google it at some point number one who is the taste tester to know if it did number two is anything sacred anymore like can you buy anything and know like I'm questioning these hot fries I'm eating you never know
00:10:50
Speaker
Well, actually, we do kind of know because according to like the FDA guidelines, they're allotted so much like rat crap in like a long and I'm sorry that you don't like the press anymore. All right. So he's going to eat his testiculars. He removed. All right. So during the entire procedure, Gates, which was Alan's husband, the second guy that I mentioned up at the top who is being persecuted, Thomas Gates.
00:11:14
Speaker
Persecuted or prosecuted? They are not being persecuted. Was Alan's husband and was there at well and he was the one that was handing him all the medical equipment to do the search. Alan had also confessed to the vic that he had done the same surgery on another man who he said, who Alan said was crazy. So he left him quote, open on the table. So I can only imagine that cut off the twig and berries
00:11:42
Speaker
not the twig no no you took the twig you're not supposed to do that in a castration are you i know and which is why we're getting to where we're getting to okay because he did not just take this victim's berries he took the lot you weren't like a like a hot dog situation
00:11:58
Speaker
Oh my God. Oh God. Yeah. Hot thoughts and meatballs are very common nowadays. Okay. That was gross. Why? I mean, let's just, okay. Unknown man is not the brightest bulb. His wattage is solely ambiance, not functional wattage.
00:12:14
Speaker
How would you feel? You've already got on a limb. You found this Yahoo on the, you know, the website, wherever. You've been driven to a cabin in the woods. You're laid out on a dining room table and you're numb. And he's telling you basically that the last guy he performed the surgery on, he killed. Like what has to be going through your mind? Here's my thing. And that's what kind of like brought me back when I started reading this back to his first statement. I had been searching online for castrate. Why? What brings any man
00:12:44
Speaker
To that point in their life where they no longer want to reproduce not only did they not want to reproduce They don't want to have any kind of intercourse whatsoever and the only way that that leads me to believe because again This victim is nameless in all police statements even through the trial. We don't know this guy's name was he you know I guess I don't want to bring it there because I don't want to make any kind of speculation against the guy that I don't know Was he mentally ill? Well, okay rapist was he a pedophile?
00:13:09
Speaker
Testation is just the removal of the testicles. And I remember a story, I don't know if it's true or not, so let's just go there, but I'm pretty sure it was a true story. And I remember a story that this man had like pain in his testicles, like super bad. And he kept, they couldn't find a reason for whatever this pain was, right? Yeah.
00:13:30
Speaker
He had all these doctor's appointments and he finally just said he wanted, he wanted them removed. He'd had his kids, he was done. He wanted the testicles removed and they wouldn't do it. So he literally went out to his car, Googled how to do a self-castration, got his pocket knife out, did it and walked back in bleeding and said, I need you to finish this now. And they did. Yeah, because they don't have a choice. But there are other reasons. But they do the same thing for women that suffer with endometriosis, women who don't want to have children or have already
00:14:00
Speaker
their children and they just don't want they can't take the pain and they want hysterectomy they want it removed and the doctors are like well you're only 30 you got wait what no I don't want to suffer through this anymore you need I am the patient I'm telling you what I'm feeling and you need to do what I'm asking you know what I'm saying like I am you know again I don't know what this guy's circumstances was but I'm always gonna go to the ladder and say that maybe he had something going on that he needed to himself to control without maybe telling somebody else
00:14:26
Speaker
Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I could be totally wrong. And I hope to God that I am. And that is not a quote. I don't know. Opinion only. You've got to be desperate to seek out some rando on the internet and go to a cabin in the woods to get your castration. I would agree. And to let them continue.
00:14:41
Speaker
unless you are stone cold frozen in fear. You know what I'm saying? Like, but again, he didn't say any of this stuff until after the surgery was completed where he said, I'm going to eat this or what have you. Wolf. Yeah. So, um, Alan also confessed to the victim that day that he also had six other operations scheduled. Same, same procedure.
00:15:03
Speaker
How are there that many people that will do this? So for all we know, I mean, based on all of the research and all the criminals that we've talked to is that they're crazy, right? OK, I get that, but how are there this many people that want the cash? But that's what I'm saying. He could have just been spewing that crazy man word vomit saying, I've got six other people. I've done this, this and this, because he's feeling such a high right now that he just did the crime he wanted to commit.
00:15:28
Speaker
You know what I'm saying? But is it a crime if you pay him to do it? He didn't pay him. He said it was free. Oh, yeah. You still sought out their services. You still were completely and totally manipulated. OK, I feel like I'll tell you the rest of the story. I'm going to tell you the rest of the story and I'm going to tell you why they got convicted the way that
00:15:45
Speaker
I'm fighting them getting convicted, but I think a named man knew what he was walking into and continued to walk Oh for sure. So the 28 year old man passed out from blood loss Oh, you mean they weren't medically sound in this cabin in the woods apparently apparently so Alan after There was a lot of conversation that kind of went through at that point where the man was in and out of consciousness but that was just a lot type and I didn't really feel like it was necessary and
00:16:11
Speaker
But Ellen wound up taking this. Who's Ellen? Alan said Ellen. I didn't mean to. OK, I'm just making sure we're on the same page. You're just trying to call me out to be. I really thought you out for foil. No, I really thought that there was another person being introduced. I have like twenty five people I'm introducing in my story. Oh, great. I'm not going to be able to keep up with that. All right. Anyway, so Alan himself is the one that dropped.
00:16:32
Speaker
the victim off the curb of a local ER. That was nice of him. And that brings us back to the hospital where all of this started. Some random person at some point called the police and after taking the victim's statements, the police got a warrant to search the residence because here's the deal. There are a multitude of laws that were broken. Now while he sought
00:16:52
Speaker
Yeah. While he sought out that surgery, this guy still performed that surgery? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that just kind of clears up the question you asked a minute where he was in fact
Hospital and Police Involvement
00:17:03
Speaker
looking for it. But at the same time, like you still as a human being need to be like, bro, no, just no. Yeah, right. No, called common human decency, I guess, if you will. I don't think there's anything common and human in this story. No. So after
00:17:20
Speaker
Taking the victim's statements, the police call the warrant, they enter the residence, and what they found was just... Please tell me, Alan and them were sitting there eating ball soup. No, in fact, they were not home. Ball soup. Ball soup. Ball soup. That's all I can think of. Spaghetti and meatballs. Testacular. Wrong. Why do people listen to me? You guys have got to be here. This is not...
00:17:43
Speaker
No, this is a good story. I'm in this one. Continue. All right. So again, super you in one room, they found multiple storage devices with recordings of no, you know, surgeries, surgeries, multiple recordings. How many recordings?
00:18:01
Speaker
Why is there not a number? Well Faith, I'm going to be completely honest with you. I don't think the police are going to give you 110% all the time when it comes to... I want a number though. I want to know how many people thought that this guy should operate on their crown jewel. But here's the deal. I don't know if it was him alone or videos he could have downloaded from the internet.
00:18:21
Speaker
I want to know how many he did. I'd love to know that myself, but maybe I'll try to research a little more of that and see if there are any more recording. I feel like that would have been inclusive in the story because he would not have been discharged on one for all nine of the crimes that were committed, the counts that were committed. I feel like it would have been more than one count.
00:18:42
Speaker
But they have to have the quote unquote victim. I don't know that that's 100% true, because if you're saying that these victims possibly from what Alan said could be dead, one of the least your victims now, you know, dead people don't press charges. So I don't know. Continue. Let's see what this goes. All right. I'm sorry. So they found multiple storage devices with recordings of surgeries, three laptop in multiple forms of medication.
Evidence Found at Allen's Residence
00:19:07
Speaker
So like, you know, the numbing stuff, the illegal substances that you should probably not. Did they at least have some antibiotics to give these people? They're controlled subs. No, I don't. They need antibiotics. In another room, they found bags of mushrooms and not like, you know, not the ones that you saute up nice mistakes. They weren't the baby bellas? No, they were not a medical bag. Shataki's? They were not shataki. That's the only two mushrooms I know. I'm out of mushrooms. OK, these are the mushrooms that are specially grown in a certain area that make you hallucinate. Those kinds of mushrooms.
00:19:37
Speaker
Also known as shrooms. I'm on board. Well, at least you knew that. Anyway, they found a medical bag with utensils. I can only assume medical equipment, a resealable plastic bag like a Ziploc. Uh-huh. Inside a deep freezer. Oh, no. With what looked like human testicles. How many testicles? What looked like human tests. I didn't know how many, but they've already eaten some, too. So we don't know.
00:20:05
Speaker
Oh, what a quandary. I know it. I know. Continue. They were making balls. Sonic vinegar. I get it. That was what? Stop listening to me. OK. All right. You'd have balls in it. At least my malts of all soup and spaghetti and meatballs. Spaghetti and ball.
00:20:27
Speaker
Could have gone with like a meatball sub. Oh my God. I bet that's the best. Oh, yeah. Continue. Well, you'd have to do quite a few castrations to get a whole grinder full. That's not 100 percent true. Depends on how to two meatballs are not enough for a sub. My friend, you got to have at least five per six. Well, OK, this is going to four. Guys, I'm good with we digress footlong.
00:20:48
Speaker
from Subway okay they found syringes adult diapers flash drives restraint straps needles a bloody dog pad dried blood in the tub and the police were a whole house doing their deal when these two gentlemen Allen Thomas show back up so they immediately apprehended the apprehended they didn't see the cop cars and run like they have to know they are they're okay continue
00:21:14
Speaker
Well, you know what, sometimes faith in this world, you have to ask yourself, like, what would a normal person do? And then maybe like, what would that person, but you don't, you can't answer what that person could do because you, you don't logic can't explain. Craig, Craig.
00:21:30
Speaker
Oh my gosh. That's exactly my point. So my form of thinking and your form of thinking kind of even out within reason, right? But some people could completely and 100% disagree with us in either direction. True. So, okay. So they've arrested the two.
00:21:48
Speaker
in 2021 pretty recent yeah last year uh-huh trying to figure out what you were in yeah i don't know i got really excited i made this weird warm happy face toward faith and she's just looking at me now like i'm trying to put the balls in my own mouth i'm not really sure oh sweet mary just continue she'll let that out it's okay um oh my gosh bubbly ellen was sentenced to two years in jail bubbly that's his name
00:22:14
Speaker
Bob Lee, I heard it all at once. It's like a talk to names their kid Bob Lee like Bob Lee Bob Lee Allen was sentenced to two years in ten. That's it ten years in prison. Okay, so all of the legal subsidies
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, basically lesser charges, right? The biggest one, which I mentioned earlier when I was naming off the counts was maiming, because he was maiming his genitalia. OK, I've got two rebuttal questions. First, rebuttal question. What's the difference between the two years in jail and the 10 years in prison? Is it not just 12 years incarceration? No, jail is a little bit because it's not like a county jail versus the Supermax. Yes. OK, number two, are we ever going to get to the partially hidden body? Almost.
00:22:58
Speaker
OK, continue. OK, so he got his 10 years. Thomas Evan Gates got three concurrent 334 day sentence for failure to bury a dead human member.
Thomas Gates Charged
00:23:10
Speaker
And so the word they're using there and member is like a male's organ member like is the penis. So the one that you were asking me about earlier, they were literally putting that charge on Thomas for not disposing of it properly. What about the body they didn't cover? I thought there's a body.
00:23:28
Speaker
It was. They said that he said that he left a man on the table open. There is no information. But we have no body. OK, there we go. Nobody discovered thus far. We don't know. Like I said, he could have been pulling us out of his butt the whole time. It could be a complete lie. It could be. But all they got to do is DNA test the items found in the freezer against the unknown mail.
00:23:49
Speaker
it could have just been that one victim. We don't know. What I'm saying is if they take how many tests did they found? It's 2021. We have DNA evidence. Take the DNA from the sack and the zebra. And they probably, they more than likely did. And it was probably the victim that he had just done his surgery. But then you turn back around and you're like, well, he just confessed to this guy laying on the table. We can bury his guy.
00:24:11
Speaker
that he canalizes and eats the scrotums of the men that he dismembers. So they charge that guy for non-proper disposal of the penis. Did they find the penis? No. So how can they charge him for not putting the penis away properly when they don't know where the penis is? Because the penis is more than like in a tummy maybe. But they can't prove that so that you can't charge someone for that. The testes were still there. But you said it was the other guy's test. It was the guy that they had surgically
00:24:38
Speaker
Okay. They were holding gates responsible for not properly disposing of the male. Okay. I thought we, I thought they were charging him for the penis on that one guy they left open. And if there was no penis, I didn't understand how they were charging. I'm back. So if anyone has to recap, so we're all on the same page that charges for the testicles of the unknown man that was in the deep freeze. No other victims because we can't prove that. Exactly. Continue. I'm, I'm, I'm on board. So.
00:25:07
Speaker
again gates got three concurrent 334 day sentence for failure to bury a dead human member for three years and ish possessions which probably would be the mushrooms that we found in the book he has already been really that's not even like a habit there's no current information aside from 2021 when all of the sentencing fully happened now
00:25:30
Speaker
What about Alan? Is Bob Lee still a prison? To my knowledge, yes. Like I said, that was what I was just saying. The most recent. The head. I told you, I told you. That wasn't good. It was very messed up. You know, I. All right. Well, I know it's kind of hard to swallow. Oklahoma, you got it. Would have been a really.
00:25:52
Speaker
I get it oh my God I get it oh Lord help me oh sweet Mary. And again resumes will be. Lord that was a good one that was really good. i'm sorry, but I did this one, and when I felt like I literally happened across this.
00:26:10
Speaker
because I was going through all kinds of like different serial killers that this that and I was like botched castration man goes to prison. That's my cup of tea. I was like, that's the story. Oh, my gosh. And this is again like me and faith or faith and I sorry, we're going to be against somebody out there that's like you don't know how to talk grammar police. Yep.
00:26:34
Speaker
We always talk about like, we'll never understand the human mind. Like we will never know how, what the human mind is capable of. And so whether it's committing a crime or being that poor guy who was dismembered, what would drive somebody to that place? So y'all, you know what? Keep your heads up, think clearly. And go to hospitals for surgeries. And remember that therapy is not a bad thing. It is now 2022.
00:27:03
Speaker
Better help. You can do it via FaceTime. That's not even a sponsored ad. That's just me telling you. Betterhelp.com. They got plans. Wowza. Well, that was a good one. You ready to go to Ohio? Am I ready for Ohio? No, I'm not sure now because you said something about 25 different people. So I had to be creating names like I always do. And I'm like, oh yeah, that guy Kurt. And you're like, name was Keith.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. All right. So I'm going to go ahead and prompt you. Number one, your story was 33 minutes because Lisa and I were on the phone last night and she was like, my story is so short. And I was like, no, it's not. I just don't shut up. And I'm going to go and warn you. Buckle up because I found this story and I was like, oh, this is a good one. Like I had it on my spreadsheet of stories I wanted to tell. But oh, sweet, sweet Mary. I did some digging this week and my little story blew up. So just you're going to have to listen quick, guys. Put your seatbelt on. You're in for a ride.
00:27:54
Speaker
And all right. Well, yes, buckle up, ladies and gentlemen, because we are hopping in the way that machine and we're going way, way back.
1896 Murder Case Introduction
00:28:04
Speaker
So we are starting our story February 1st, 1896. So just know throughout this story, things were different. Times were different. Just you'll understand when we get there. But things were different in 1896 than they are in 2022. Like the way women were treated like
00:28:22
Speaker
everything, everything. So February 1st, 1896 was a Saturday morning and John Hughling was walking to work at the Lock Farm where he worked in Fort Thomas, Kentucky. Fort Thomas is a very small town on the out on the outposts of Kentucky, but it is right across the river from Cincinnati, Ohio.
00:28:44
Speaker
So as as John was cutting through an apple orchard on the farm, he saw a girl who was passed out drunk, which was apparently not unusual for this area, which mean ninety six and finding a young girl passed out an apple orchard drunk is just normal. I would not have thought so. Just he does.
00:29:05
Speaker
I mean, I kind of do because I don't feel like there's a whole lot of amusement back in the day, except from like kicking rocks and drinking. Apparently. Well, yeah. The the lock farm was near an army post in Fort Thomas and soldiers were known to meet up with ladies of the noche at the orchard. That would be ladies of the night. For those of you who don't know what noche means are sex workers in layman's term.
00:29:28
Speaker
yeah we'll just throw that okay. But um they would. I'm trying to be civil. Well I am but you know. You did great. Uh they would they would meet them up at the orchard to have a good time party around a little um so he was used to chasing people away from the orchard especially on weekends or waking them up the next day after they passed out drunk from partying the night before like this was no this was not new to him.
00:29:49
Speaker
So however, as he got closer to the girl, he noticed that something was wrong with her. She was laying on her back angled down a slope like a hill. Her feet were facing the top of the slope with her arms thrown backwards down the slope. Her skirt was pulled up over her head like it was covering the hole, like her skirt was pulled up over her back and over her head, covering her completely from the waist up. And with all this healing,
00:30:14
Speaker
He knew something was wrong, so he... Clearly. I'm sorry, but the whole description seems like she's been mangled. OK, all right. So he runs up to the lock farm and gets the owner, John Locke, and tells him everything he saw. And John Locke says, go to Newport and get the police, bring them back here. So they got in touch with Colonel Cochran, who is at Fort Thomas at the army base, Jewel Plummer, who is the county sheriff, and a coroner, Bob Tingley, all come out to the lock farm.
00:30:43
Speaker
The three of the men, along with John Hughling, who is the worker, go out so John can show them where he saw this girl passed out. And she's still laying there passed out as they approach. I'm going to be honest with you. If I approached a body that looked like that, passed out would not be my first instinct.
00:31:00
Speaker
You know, but this is something that they it's a Saturday morning and this is very common for them. Yes, but I agree and envision someone being passed out as like, you know, maybe fetal position like snoring some drool and definitely some drool, but not so much with my feet pointing in the same direction as my head and legs. So the legs were up a hill. The head was down a hill. They were laying on their stomach. That's what I'm trying. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Like in her arms and whole thing. Yeah.
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah. So when they get to the area, they noticed a few things. The whole area looks like it's been trampled. A tan glove is laying next to the woman. A corset has been cut off and is tossed away nearby. There's a piece of a dress that's ripped up in the trees and there's blood covering everything, bushes, everything. And he didn't notice that when he approached the scene to begin with.
00:31:49
Speaker
you know i have several questions but that's i'm just saying yeah like that's kind of noticeable okay yeah so remember this is 1896 crime scene investigations and protocols were a lot different than they are today i still don't think what happens next is appropriate
00:32:05
Speaker
But if you're a crime scene investigator, if you approach a scene like that where there's blood and gore and her body has been mangled, that you can honestly look at yourself and tell the sheriff, I think she's passed out drunk on my farm. Oh no, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about what the coroner does now.
00:32:22
Speaker
The corner takes a hold of the woman's foot and flips it up over her body to where she's like tumbling down the hill. And as this happens, her dress, which was flipped up, goes flying back down and they notice there's no head. The dress was not covering her head. She doesn't have one. Um, well, that's, that's, that's one way, um, to figure that out. That's not appropriate. I don't even think for 1896 standards, but be that as a may that well, you know, cause
00:32:48
Speaker
women were held in a different regard than they are now there's no there's no advocating for women back then there's no justice that i mean that was that it's inappropriate a way to handle a body less that it was a dead woman yeah so at this point the sheriff which kudos to this sheriff he realizes this is way bigger and more of a case than he can handle by himself so he calls the cincinnati chief of detectives and asks for help
00:33:13
Speaker
So they send over to investigators John McDermott and Cal Crim to assist in this investigation because Sheriff Clum was like, hey, way above my pay grade guys. She doesn't have a head. I don't know what's going on. I need some help. So they send these two, these two crime detectives. She didn't have a head. Right. Sorry. Not funny.
00:33:30
Speaker
So the detectives get there and they're good. They notice a few things right off the top. Number one is the tan glove. It was sitting right there by the body. We got that. There are pieces of the dress hanging up in the branches and there are two sets of footprints side by side. It looks like a man and a woman. McDermott noticed that the footprint started out walking side by side until they break apart going in two different directions. And he said that he believes the woman was running away.
00:33:59
Speaker
And I thought, how how how the heck do you tell that from footprints? Well, but here's the deal, though, like there are so many back then, but they did tracking. Yes. Well, do a wild animal now with hunters. But how do you tell us they're running as opposed to walking like just from footprint? And this is his theory, which is.
00:34:17
Speaker
Well, it wasn't that Okay, it's completely common sense and you're like, oh yeah, that makes sense But I wouldn't have just thought of it So he's able to tell us because it had rained the day before leaving these patches of mud and the woman's Footprints went straight through the mud and he said any woman in that day and age is an address and nice shoes and a bonnet Would have walked around the mud puddle, but because she was running from an assailant She ran through the mud puddle not caring about getting dirty, which is a pretty good observation. Like I was impressed
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, so um, they also noticed that the ground is soaked in blood blood is pulling under the body. Obviously, there's no head. Yeah But it's throughout the bushes and even up into the tree and the branches and the leaves They said it went up a minimum of three feet up in the air I was kind of wondering too like how a piece of her dress wound up Yeah, I'm not sure about the dress but the blood was up three to some reports even say like five feet in up in the tree this blood spray Everything you're saying right now is just totally sad
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah, and they said that the blood was still wet to the touch, which meant it was a fresh scene and it had happened after the rain. Crim, the other detective, took a stick and dug into the ground and was able to find like, clotted blood and even like he dug and he was able to find blood up to about half a foot down soaked into the ground.
00:35:37
Speaker
So she bled out clearly. Yeah. And a soldier from a nearby post there that was there to assist, he found cuts in the ground. Like he said, it looks like someone took a knife and stabbed into the ground. Like they were trying to clean off the blade. So he dug around these knife mark and was able to again, dig out clumps of coagulated blood and blonde hair. So from the amount of blood covering the area, they believe that she was still alive when decapitated. Oh.
00:36:04
Speaker
From the arterial spray up in the trees, three to five, she was still alive when her head was removed. With her clothes being dry and the rain stopping the night before around 10 p.m., they believe she died around 10, 30 p.m. the night before as her clothes were dry besides the blood. She was dry. The blood still wet up in the trees. It stopped raining at 10. This is how they're piecing this together. Which honestly, I think that we've lost something. Like we rely too much on technology for detective work because they put a lot together just literally by looking.
00:36:34
Speaker
But you had to back then. You had to, but it's more like, I mean, I get that we like our, our videos and everything else. And technically, I guess today's age, this would all be considered circumstantial, but it's just interesting that they're able to like seriously look and be like, Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Cause I didn't see any of that when they were first talking about crime scene. So men's footprints led across the farm to Alexander Pike. That was a multiple men's.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yes men's footprints and there was a cistern there which I had to google and it's just like a large water tank for holding water and on the cistern outside was a bloody handprint so they thought maybe they disposed of the head and the cistern so they open up this cistern but it's a dead end there's nothing inside they just kind of rested their hand there so they continue to follow the footprints to a nearby reservoir about half a mile away.
00:37:20
Speaker
They were able to find bloodstain clothing hidden underneath the roots of a nearby tree. They found wagon tracks leading back towards Cincinnati from the pike, a crushed woman's hat, like a bonnet that they'd wear back then, a bloodstain handkerchief were all found amongst the road as they were walking.
00:37:39
Speaker
However, there's still one important thing to say. I left a trail. Yeah. But there's no head still. At this point, they decide to remove the body and take it to Newport, the town next over from where they're at. And the corner, uh, stingly, stingly, uh, tingly. I was close. No, you started with the D. No, I said stringly the corner anyway. Okay.
00:37:59
Speaker
The corner who is there, he doesn't want to be involved in this. He's also into politics in the in the next town, Franklin. And this is not something that's good for his political career. So he says never is ski ski. I'm out. Yeah.
00:38:15
Speaker
So that's awesome. I feel like that's like the same narrative, no matter what time of age it was. Yeah. Like all the politicians just flee like roaches when you flip the light on. And so he leaves poor Sheriff Plumlee to deal with all this by himself. Nice. So the sheriff calls in a man named Robert Crothers. He is a local physician, like a local doctor. And he's also a professor at Ohio State.
00:38:42
Speaker
And he doesn't tell Crothers what's going on. He just says, hey, I need you to come down to the funeral home and help me out with something. However, this is a small town. And like many small towns, news travels faster than you could ever anticipate. And while they don't know exactly what's going on, the people there know something's going on. And there's now a crowd outside the funeral home, basically rubbernecking to see
00:39:04
Speaker
What happened? Exactly. Not only that, there's also a crowd that is now taking over the lock farm and literally just going through the orchard and the whole crime scene, trying to see if they can collect any items from this murder so that they can sell it later. Are you kidding me? You know, I'm not. It's 100 percent a true statement. And on the one hand, you want to judge them a little bit.
00:39:25
Speaker
No, I'm sitting here thinking of all of the criminals that are incarcerated where people go online on eBay and buy crap. I'm thinking about us sitting here researching killers and talking about them on a podcast. We don't talk about us exactly.
00:39:40
Speaker
Judge others, not each other. So tracker dogs were brought in at this point, but due to the crowd that have trampled all over the crime scene, the dogs have a really hard time picking up any scent of the assailant or the victim. Right. They are eventually able to catch a scent which the dogs take all the way to the reservoir and they stop. So the police are pretty excited thinking that this is where it's like everything's going to kind of wrap up.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. And they searched the entire area. They go so far as to drain the reservoir, but nothing is able to be found. And there is still no head. So it's like everything came to a head. No, because there is no head. Nothing came to a head. There is no head. I just wanted to say it because you're talking about a head. I got it. I should have waited. You should have. Yeah. So across town, you know, I could have been a twofer could have been a twofer. So across town, while the dogs are out searching, they're draining the reservoir. Crothers is now performing an autopsy on the body.
00:40:35
Speaker
and he finds a few things during this autopsy. Number one, the victim was not raped before she was murdered. Small nurse, judging me to believe there's a completely malicious attack on a person. And all this, all these points that he finds in the autopsy, most of them come back later. So just try to store them in the back of your head.
00:40:51
Speaker
So she was not raped judging by the softness of her hands. That's a direct quote. She was not any kind of labor. There were indentions on her fingers where it looked like rings are usually worn. Those were removed possibly to keep the victim from being identified or they just took them to sell them. So more than likely married.
00:41:11
Speaker
She was around 20 years old in her stomach. There was an extremely large quantity of cocaine, which, you know, that's your initial reaction. But cocaine was completely legal at this time and age. You literally could go to your local CVS or whatever it was like when the word I'm going to buy a Coke.
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah, they literally fight for headaches and like we would get extended migraine. They just go get some cocaine from CVS and they're good. So Carruthers also agreed with the previous coroner. She was 100 percent alive during decapitation due to the large amount of blood at the crime scene. There was about estimated about six pints of
Pearl's Autopsy and Family Identification
00:41:49
Speaker
blood. So there were no there were no other stab wounds.
00:41:52
Speaker
No. On this woman's body. No. So literally her form of death was being sought. Decapitate. Yeah. Okay. Wow. He did believe that her throat had been cut first, which was how they actually killed her. Well, I mean, if you're trying to decapitate somebody. Yes. I feel like your throat's probably gonna get cut.
00:42:10
Speaker
You know, they quit moving at that point. They were also extremely deep cuts in her hands and on her palms, showing that she fought like heck. And it wasn't like just cuts. Like it said, it looked like she grabbed the end of the blade and they like, like it was deep cuts. And the final thing he found, which in my opinion is the worst besides the death and the no head is she was around five months pregnant.
00:42:34
Speaker
Uh, so this is, this is the coroner's report because the lock farm is where the soldiers took the local girls and or sex workers. Many believe that this is who this woman was. And there was a connection to the army post some way.
00:42:50
Speaker
So there's literally report after report. They said about 24 separate reports are called in within the first few hours of possible people that this woman could be, missing sisters, wives, girlfriends, et cetera. But all leads were dead in. Every single person that was like, you know, my sister Janice is dating this guy at the army post and she's missing and they found her at, you know, at the next town over, like at the market, like everybody was accounted for that had been called in as a possible person missing. Yeah.
00:43:18
Speaker
A man named, honestly, this right here is what got me to tell this story, and then it kind of, you know, tell Spinda after that, but a man named L.D. Pook, sorry, L.D. Pook. It's his name. It's an old-timey name. He owned a shoe store in Newport, and he was actually in the crowd on Saturday morning, viewing the crime scene, walking through the crime scene.
00:43:41
Speaker
And he noticed something weird about the victim's feet. So he goes to the investigators. Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, we're not going to breeze over that. So you're telling me back in those days. Oh, yeah. Civilians. Yeah. Could walk the crime. OK. Because it was like an attraction. Like they were there. That's so weird to me. I couldn't honestly say, hey, guys, I need Saturday off because there's this crime scene with this dead chick. It doesn't have a head. And I want to go around. I'd really like to go like watch that.
00:44:08
Speaker
Yeah. But they they were at the funeral home where her body was. They were at the at the lot farm. Different times. Yeah. So he tells the investigators something that he thought was important. They needed to know that the victim had a uniquely narrow foot and they needed to find her shoe because in that day and age, each manufacturer would stamp the inside of the shoes with a specific number that was then kept on record.
00:44:35
Speaker
Smart. So where they would where they would be sold, what what store they went to the whole nine. And if they found the shoe, they'd find the stamp with the number and they could trace it to where the shoe was sold and then to who purchased it. So with this information, they find the shoe, they find the number stamped inside. It's like it's like the back in the day dental record. I know. Right. Because they didn't have any other way to identify this lady. There's no fingerprints. There's no there's no head. But they have no way. OK.
00:45:03
Speaker
There's no dental records because you didn't have a face. Well, I'm gonna say they didn't have dental records But then it didn't matter because they couldn't find her head. I know what you mean. That was super insensitive. Sorry Anyway, so they find the shoe that has this number stamped in it and they find the manufacturer is out of, Ohio Which again, it's just across the thing. So the owner of the factory they they called owner of the factory who
00:45:26
Speaker
goes to, they give him the number and he goes to look up where this shoe was sold. And he gives the investigation, he gives the information of the investigators where it was sold at. But unfortunately the officers couldn't do anything with it at this time. They had to wait till Monday because apparently they didn't work on Sunday. So after Saturday they were done till Monday. Well, I'm sure the Sabbath was like a very big deal back when. That and they said it's like officers just like they didn't have the money for overtime. So they literally couldn't pay these officers to go off and write.
00:45:53
Speaker
So on Monday, the investigators go over to Green Castle, Indiana, and end up at a shoe store called Lewis and Hayes to try to find out where these shoes went. The owner of the store found out that that specific shoe and that specific size did three of them.
00:46:10
Speaker
and two of them had been sold in the exact size that they were looking for. One of the shoes was sold to the wife of a soldier out of Fort Knox. They're able to track the soldier down, track the wife down. She's alive. She's well. Everything is good. Check her off the list. OK, but here's here's my interruption with this go ahead with.
00:46:28
Speaker
with the information they just found from a shoemake. I know, right? Is that not so? It's like a fingerprint. Yeah. It's like, OK, it's like, you don't have the same kind of technology, right back then that we have now. But at the same time, you can you could prove a pretty dead gum. Good case. That's how this case was busted. Was it was it was an owner of a shoe store that was like, oh, hey, she's got really narrow feet. But on her shoes, you track her all the way down. And that's how they broke this. And that's like, I'm just saying, guys, like,
00:46:58
Speaker
Today, you couldn't tell which Walmart your slippers came out of. Right. But, man, these people were. But it was it was the. Oh, what's the word I'm looking for? I have no idea. Oh, man. Hold on. Tedious nature of one person's job. Yeah. To be so just. Hey, I am not. Yeah.
00:47:20
Speaker
Keep a record, like a paper record where you're writing down that lot number, where you send that lot number, the whole nine. And so while nowadays we may not have, nowadays we have DNA, we have fingerprints, we have the whole nine, but back then they were still solving these cases.
00:47:35
Speaker
Oh, yeah. But they were solving them in a hundred and 10 percent different way. Oh, gosh. Yeah. That's why I found this case. That's super intelligent. It's super interesting. It's super hard work. But the fact that literally a shoe, an owner of a shoe store was like, oh, I know how you can find out who this is. Like that. That's why this case is so interesting to me. Well, guys.
00:47:54
Speaker
So just make sure you have thin feet if you're back in the 1800s. So the wife of the soldiers cleared. The other the other set of shoes in this size was sold to a man, a woman who had purchased them for their daughter as a graduation present and their daughter's name was Pearl Bryant. So who was Pearl Bryant? We're going to go back in the way back machine again. Pearl Bryant was born October 25th, 1872 in Green Castle, Indiana. She has one of 12 children. Well, and she was the second youngest. It was a very large family.
00:48:22
Speaker
Kudos to all of the women who were willing to push out that many kids. With no epidural.
00:48:30
Speaker
None. No, there is no numbing nothing. No. And you lived. So kudos to you. Yes. So they were also an extremely wealthy family. It said like in today's, they'd literally be billionaires. Like they're very wealthy. Pearl was described as pretty charming. Everybody loved her. She actually like while this family was very well off, they ended up having a pretty hard time in the early 1890s. Out of their 12 adult children, six of them died from different diseases, brain fever,
00:49:00
Speaker
One, and I don't have any other information besides what I'm about to say, one of their adult children died in a particular accident with a folding bed situation. That's all I got. I would love to be able to detail you more of how this folding bed, but that's all I got. I can only assume it broke his back. I don't know, but then maybe they put him out of his misery. I don't know, but so six of their kids have been killed at this point. They have six slaps.
00:49:23
Speaker
Pearl mothered her sisters who had passed away. She basically took all their children and mothered them, helping take care of them. She was known to be particularly close with her cousin, Will Wood, and Will actually introduces her to 27-year-old Scott Jackson when she was around 20 years old. Jackson was a dental student who had just moved to Green Castle with his mom. No one really knew why, but Jackson and his mom moved here to move in
00:49:51
Speaker
sister because he had been involved in an embezzlement scheme against the railroad and got busted. But he turned on his partner in crime, gave states evidence, so he got away with no jail time, no prosecution, no nothing, and he's starting over. Exactly.
00:50:07
Speaker
On the outside, Jackson seemed to be like a really decent guy. He was described as handsome, pleasing, attentive, polite, but most didn't know about his previous legal issues, so he was considered a good cat. However, away from society's darlings and the high society, there was another side to Jackson. Besides the whole embezzlement thing, he and Will would run around town drinking, partying, and this is a direct quote, spend time with women of questionable moral character.
00:50:36
Speaker
Ladies of the night of the new chain, but they did all this under false names, so nothing would lead back to them in this high society world they lived in. Right. So Pearl was smitten with Jackson. He's handsome. He's he's charismatic. He's going to dental school. So obviously, you know, he's a great guy. Great guy. So the two started a relationship. They were 14. However, at the end of that summer,
00:50:59
Speaker
Scott Jackson skirted and Pearl was left pregnant, so she was an unwed mother in the 1890s, which was not the thing to do. No, as a matter of fact, that's like a very, very, very bad.
00:51:15
Speaker
Yeah. But when Jackson went off to school, because he went to dental school, they didn't know Pearl was pregnant. In October, Jackson had to transfer to Cincinnati, Ohio's dental school, because he'd been kicked out of his other dental school for fighting. So he was no longer close to where Pearl lived, and he stopped visiting Green Castle and pretty much pushed Pearl to the back of his mind. He's on the brighter pastures or greener fields or whatever.
00:51:39
Speaker
Rainer pastures. There you go. Sorry. So we'll try. We'll contact Jackson and basically says, hey, Pearl's pregnant and she's in love with you and she wants to marry you. Pearl's thinking they're going to start a family. He's going to be a dentist. Everything's going to be great. But Jackson's response was to Pearl. Nope. Have a life here and you're not going to be part of it. Go away.
00:52:01
Speaker
Not that directly, but that was how Jackson was feeling. Jackson started writing letters to Woods, giving him different potions that would assist in a miscarriage. By potions, it was just different medical concoctions that would force the pregnancy to terminate, which he wanted Woods to give to Pearl. However, at the same time, he would also write letters to Pearl saying things like, wish you were here, miss you so much, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:52:28
Speaker
Yeah, so Jackson was also known to be visiting several women around the Ohio area out partying definitely not pining away for Pearl so it's not clear 100%. If Pearl knew her cousin.
00:52:43
Speaker
was slipping these concoctions to her to force a miscarriage. That's such an awesome relative, by the way. But they were close. So I don't know. We'll get more into that. But it's not 100% clear. But it does appear that she became aware of it at some point and that she was OK with it or at least made peace with it. Because again, this is 1896, 1896. So as a single unwed mother, her life was done. Young, young. Yes, 20. She would be disowned by her family.
00:53:12
Speaker
she'd be out on the streets no one would marry her no one would associate with her and her family would also have a huge black mark against them so while she might not have known at first about these concoctions it is thought that at some point she knew about it and she kind of went along with it because she didn't have a choice right
00:53:30
Speaker
So either way, it doesn't matter because the potions weren't working. So Jackson wrote to Wood and said, it's time to start talking to Pearl about having an abortion. Now, abortions were not legal. This was not an option just to be T-Dubs. So while they were illegal, they were still fairly common and occurred every day is what Jackson told Woods. Illegal. Yes. Sorry. While they were illegal, they were common. They occurred every day. They were safe. And actually Scott Jackson could do the abortion himself because, you know, he's a dental student.
00:54:00
Speaker
Right. And so he's going to remove her head and leave her feet pointing in a different direction as they should be. Well, apparently it was quasi normal for both dentists and barbers to be educated in barbers, barbers like haircutters. Yeah. To be educated in the medical field and even perform minor surgeries and procedures. Dental students would actually even practice on cadavers in dental school for these procedures.
00:54:24
Speaker
But you have to think this is 1890s when they go to war they needed they need field medic So that's what these people would do like it was kind of oh, I don't know makes no sense to me But I would not let a dentist perform surgery on a truthfully right that realism thing, right? Yeah, well you sit here and you're like the a few for the many we would not be anywhere near where we are right now if people hadn't committed the crimes they committed I don't know man
00:54:50
Speaker
So that's a sketchy, sketchy road. So Jackson tries to get what to convince Pearl to come to Cincinnati to get the abortion. But we'll put this foot down, whether because he's saving his own butt since abortions were illegal or because he is close to his cousin. There's no paternity test anymore. And this is too far. Yeah. So he refuses. He's out.
00:55:11
Speaker
Like he literally could have just said that's not my kid. Yeah, literally. I'm going to be honest, like, because a woman's opinion did mean statement at that point. Yeah, nothing. I'm just saying. So we'll put this foot down. He's not. He's the abortions too far for him. However, three weeks later, Jackson writes would and says he has a room for Pearl and she needs to come to Cincinnati to see him.
00:55:34
Speaker
Pearl reads the letter and expresses her intentions to go that following Monday. We do not have a copy of this letter to this day. We don't know 100% what it says, but we do know that on January 27th, 1986, she tells her parents she's going to Indianapolis to visit some family friends that had moved there, but instead heads to Cincinnati where she arrives at 1.35 PM.
00:55:56
Speaker
So in a nutshell, we don't have proof of the letter, but she's being called away. Yeah, she went by a guy by a man. Yes. Who doesn't want the child that she's about to birth, who all the sudden is taking interest in her. I'm just saying so. All right, go.
00:56:13
Speaker
When Pearl arrives in Cincinnati, she's at the train station or however she got there and there's no Jackson. So she gets a taxi and he brings her to the dental college. But again, when she arrives there, she can't find Jackson anywhere. So she eventually checks into the Indiana House, which is like a hostel or a hotel under a false name, Mabel Stanley, which was very close to her sister's name.
00:56:38
Speaker
who had passed. So according to the New York Times, Pearl did not meet up with Jackson until the next day as again, he didn't pick her up. He wasn't there. He wasn't, she couldn't find him. He basically just left her in the big city by herself to do God knows what pregnant and he was doing who knows what. Um, so again, super great guy, but reports
00:56:58
Speaker
Did come back later saying that Jackson just happened to be at the wrong train station. He got it confused. That's why he wasn't there and couldn't be found. I call BS about rise a piece of crap, but whatever. So the next few days, um, what occurs are pure speculation. No one knows a hundred percent what transpired between Pearl and Jackson, but this is what we know the following day. Um, on January 28th, Pearl meets up with Jackson and he checks her out of this Indiana house that she checked into.
00:57:26
Speaker
on January 29th, but where she goes next is unclear. So, Pearls met up with Scott Jackson and in tow is his friend Alonzo Walling. He was a new character to the story, but an important one. Walling is one of Jackson's friends. They actually met way back in Indianapolis when he was first in general school there before he got kicked out and they weren't super close. They just knew each other.
00:57:48
Speaker
But when Jackson transferred to Cincinnati for dental school, he ran back into Walling. And since they both knew each other and were familiar with each other, they said, hey, let's room together at the sporting house while we're in school. That's how they hooked up. Walling was basically the complete polar opposite of Jackson, as well as being seven years younger. He was kind of awkward and was actually described by a friend of his.
00:58:10
Speaker
so a friend of wallings this was his description not charming has a very slow mind very limited life experience weak willed and easily dominated by others who had stronger minds wow don't need enemies when you got a thing like that tell you what that's like how you make me feel every day oh shut it i do not but
00:58:29
Speaker
It's thought that walling would be easily swayed by Jackson, who's very conniving, domineering, charismatic, manipulative. So on Friday, January 31st, there are workers at the John Public Music Company who were finishing up their lunch, just sitting around hanging out, windows are open, and they hear a fight outside.
00:58:50
Speaker
And of course, everybody's going to listen to a fight. Absolutely. We're all nosy people. So they later report that a woman was yelling at two men that she was going back to Green Castle if they did not, quote unquote, sort themselves out and that she would get her brother involved to assist in this issue. These workers would later identify the three arguments, Pearl Bryant, Scott Jackson and Alonzo Walling. They said that they heard Pearl say to Jackson, she's screaming mad. I'm going back home to tell my folks.
00:59:19
Speaker
They said that the two men were able to calm the woman down and eventually they all walked off together and they were unable to hear anything else they said because the yelling was no longer happening. So back to the investigation. Investigators have just found out that these shoes on this dead woman belonged to Pearl Bryan.
Scott Jackson's Arrest
00:59:35
Speaker
And so they're on their way to Pearl Bryan's house to visit her family.
00:59:39
Speaker
Her family back in Green Castle has actually heard about this body found in this apple orchard. Everybody has. They've read about in the newspaper. They've kept track. But it's one of those like morbid curiosities. Like they're just, it's like us listening to different crime podcasts. Like they're just wanting to be in the know. They honestly haven't even thought about it connecting to Pearl because she's in Indianapolis visiting friends. But at this point, they are starting to worry. They haven't heard from her at all. Right.
01:00:06
Speaker
So, again, at this point pearls family is starting to get a little worried about her, even though they haven't connected the two. Because it's been about a week since she left and they haven't heard from her at all, so her brother Fred all in the case. They were just reading in the paper, but they haven't connected it that's that's in Kentucky she's in Indianapolis, but it does just remind them hey pearls gone, we need to check on her, we haven't heard from her.
01:00:29
Speaker
but again it's only been a week and it's not like you could send a text or pick up a phone in the 1800s so her brother Fred sends a telegram over to the family friends the bishops to ask about Pearl and a telegram is responded by that family saying nope we don't know what you're talking about she was not supposed to come here we're not expecting her and we've not seen her so the family is now alerted that there's obviously something going on they don't know about right and as the family is
01:00:57
Speaker
realizing that something's wrong with regards to Pearl is the exact same time the investigators are headed to their house with the items they found to see if they can identify anything. All right, sorry about that brief intermission. Children were causing a ruckus and we had to be parents and not fun. Back to the murder. It's always the best.
01:01:16
Speaker
In fact, speaking of murder. Exactly. So the police show up at the Bryan house and ask to speak to the family. Pearl's mother is able to identify each piece of evidence that they had brought with them all the clothing one by one as Pearl's. The police also ask about Pearl's feet. Is there any identifying identifiable thing about her feet? Anything weird about her feet? Pearl's mom says, yeah, she she had webbed toes like webbing in between her toes. OK.
01:01:46
Speaker
You said thin shoes. You said nothing about. Well, because you can't tell that was shoes. She had very narrow feet and she had some minor webbing between her toes. But once the investigators are told this, they are able to make a positive idea on the body they found. And it was Pearl Bryan. So they then have to sit there and look at this family and inform them that their daughters has been murdered.
01:02:07
Speaker
So now after because literally this is 10 minutes ago, they thought Pearl was finding in Indianapolis. They just realized she's not where she's supposed to be and she lied. Now they're being informed that she's been murdered. And ladies, I'm going to take this opportunity to tell you that if you're going somewhere, you need to be honest with at least one person, at least one.
01:02:28
Speaker
Okay. Come on. I don't care if it's the 1800s, the 1700s. Have a backup plan. 2000s. It does not matter. No. You need to tell your best friend, your favorite aunt. It doesn't matter. Somebody leave it on a post-it note at your desk to find. He's agreed.
01:02:45
Speaker
So they then, they've just shocked this family with, your daughter's been murdered. Now they have to immediately start questioning them about Pearl. What's her schedule? What's her routine? Why was she in Cincinnati, Ohio? And the family says that the only reason they can think that Pearl would be in Ohio is Scott Jackson. So Investigator Crim sends a telegraph back to Cincinnati, alerting them at the police station.
01:03:09
Speaker
to go get Scott Jackson and arrest him. So that's what they do. And on Wednesday, February 5th, Jackson is arrested at his boarding house and taken to the police for questioning. During questioning, Scott Jackson confirms that he does know Pearl Bryant. They were friends, but he hasn't seen her since around January 2nd when he was in Green Castle. They weren't close. He says, I knew her cousin Will Woods, but I haven't seen him since around January 6th. He's not been to Newport, Kentucky anytime recently.
01:03:37
Speaker
which is where the body was found right there across the river from Cincinnati. Why do you keep saying Kentucky? Because that's where the body was found was in Kentucky. But the county in Kentucky, where this body was found, you look across the river in there, Cincinnati, Ohio, where he's at dental school.
01:03:52
Speaker
Oh, so we're in several states here. That's what I was trying to figure out. Yes. You're like, you have Ohio, but so far we've been in Kentucky, Indianapolis. Yeah, we've been everywhere. Yeah. So I'm sorry. Yeah, you're fine. So he says that all these accusations that they're thrown around are false and he's got an alibi for the whole weekend. Naturally.
01:04:14
Speaker
He went out with friends on Friday night. He returned home to study. On Saturday, he went to the theater with other friends and he had heard about this woman who was found Saturday morning. And honestly, it made him sick, the whole situation. He was sick to death. So it was during this questioning that Jackson, it was said that he was calm. He didn't hesitate in any of his answers. He had an alibi. Like it wasn't like he was trying to make things up. Like he was just talking. How naturally have you lied in your existence?
01:04:41
Speaker
You wake me up from a dead sleep. You will think I'm awake and ready to go. And I'll go right back to sleep.
Murder Investigation and Mob Mentality
01:04:48
Speaker
That's your line. That's your line. That's yeah. Like I'm just saying I can lie from a dead sleep. Yeah. Yeah. I'm already awake. Yeah. Um, when he's short and I have to wake me up from nursing school, he'd call to wake me up and I'd have like a whole conversation with him and I'd just go back to sleep and not realize that he had to make me like go outside and press the car alarm or something to prove I was up and out of bed.
01:05:05
Speaker
My lives always consist on how big of trouble I'm about to get in. Like the kids just now. I didn't kick him in the face. I didn't punch her in the face. We're born pretty easy. So either way, he searched and booked for murder and they do when they're when they're booking him and searching him, they notice long scratch marks down his arms, which he said are just from bug bites.
01:05:28
Speaker
Not I would have at least said coyote. Yeah, no, just bug bites. And during the search of his person, they find two carriage tickets in his pocket that are from Cincinnati to Kentucky, that place. He hasn't been in forever, ever. Never been to Kentucky. What a shocker in his pocket. However, this is not definitive as there were no dates on these tickets. So while they could not place him at the time or the day of the murder with these tickets, it does show he's a liar and he lied during questioning.
01:05:57
Speaker
I would ask the question. You were to keep tickets in your pocket. How long can they be there? No, no, no. Well, yeah, exactly. Well, how long can they be there? But like I've put a ticket in my pocket for like the aquarium. Yeah. And by the end of the day. Oh, yeah. It's just sweaty and gross. And you can't read anything. And no, not even that. But within a week.
01:06:19
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. So it's crippling. Um, so they, the police go to searches rooms at the boarding house and they find a woman stalking stuff behind a trunk and a woman's pocketbook. At this point, there is, that's all they find woman's pocketbook and, and stockings.
01:06:38
Speaker
Sorry, guys, I'm making faces at faith because I don't understand. Yeah, we'll
Jackson and Walling's Legal Troubles
01:06:42
Speaker
get there. At this point, mob mentality is strong with the people because they're invested in this murder. They've read about it, especially since it is a young pregnant woman who comes from a very.
01:06:54
Speaker
And she was brutally murdered. So Jackson is receiving multiple death threats because he's the number one suspect. He's in custody. And because of this, he has to be held in Cincinnati, Ohio. He cannot be transferred to Kentucky because honestly, they think that the people that will kill him and a guard is actually placed outside of his room in his cell just to keep him safe, to keep normal people, quote unquote, normal civilians from breaking and stealing him and lynching him outside. Right.
01:07:22
Speaker
So the first night, Jackson is said to be pacing around his cell, like pacing, pacing, pacing. And he finally looks up at the guard and says, well, hasn't Walling been arrested yet? So the guard looks at him and's like, should Walling be arrested? And Jackson just looks at him, turns away and doesn't say anything else. Now, remember the last time Scott Jackson got in trouble with the embezzlement snitches get stitches. He snitched and he walked away without a single consequence. So
01:07:48
Speaker
Keep that in mind. So by three thirty that morning, Walling is in police custody being brought into the police office for questioning. So the police now have two men under arrest for this highly publicized murder. Right. They're in the but they're in the bowl of doodoo. Yeah. And witnesses start to come in.
01:08:05
Speaker
So a man named John Kugel owns a bar near Jackson and Walling's boarding house and he walks into the police station with this like it's called something specific but I can't pronounce it. It's basically like one of those old-timey suitcases like the big like Aunt Sarah had in Lady and the Tramp like the big leather satchel that's like a purse but it's huge and it's a suitcase like an overnight bag back in the day. Yeah. So he's got one of these and he brings it to the police
01:08:30
Speaker
I said, yeah, but I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Lady of the Tramp, you know, answer that comes to watch the baby when darling, there are so many parts of that movie that I remember in that the cats jump out of the big bag like like traveling kennels. Oh, yeah. But it's like a suitcase. It's like a big nice little day. Yeah.
01:08:47
Speaker
So this, John Kugel comes in with that and he tells the investigators that Jackson came into his bar Monday night, two days after Pearl's body was found, telling him, I'm going to leave this here, but I'm going to come back for it later. They opened the bag and it's empty, but the entire inside is coated and stained with blood. So no head. Yep. And Kugel also tells the police that, Hey, I'm not the only one that's had this bag in my possession. So here's a timeline of this bag.
01:09:15
Speaker
David Wallingford, who owned a bar downtown near the boarding house, told police that Jackson, oh this, I'm telling you, is crazy. I'm sorry, the only thing I can think is like, my stories are so abruptly over. Am I gone forever?
01:09:31
Speaker
and you're sitting here and you're like, I'm going to give you a timeline of the people that possessed this bag in the last 10 years. Well, it's important. It's not. It's one weekend and it's important. I am the worst podcaster ever. No, you keep things brief and I don't shut up because I get to invest in.
01:09:50
Speaker
So, but I really like this, this weird man. Yeah, it's weird. All right. So I'm sorry. David Wallingford who owns a bar near the boarding house says that Jackson came in Saturday, February 1st, the day after the body was found. And he has the bag in his hand and he sets the bag down like pretty heavily, like it's full.
01:10:08
Speaker
on the bar and says, hey, there's a head. Yeah. He said, yeah. Yeah. He said because David even said like, what the heck's in your bag? And he's like, oh, a bunch of clothes, nothing much. I'm only this bag here. But he said that Jackson was very serious and then just takes the bag and leaves the bar. So apparently he didn't trust David Wallenberg.
01:10:29
Speaker
A few blocks down at the Legner's Tavern, Jackson entered and gets permission from the owner to leave the bag there, where the bag sits at this bar till the next night, Saturday evening on February 2nd. The owner, when he's questioned at the Legner's Tavern, said that the bag was very heavy and he remembered jokingly asking Jackson if there was a bowling ball inside when Jackson came back to collect this bag.
01:10:54
Speaker
But Jackson literally just stared at him, doesn't respond, takes the bag and leaves around 10 30 p.m. Sunday night. First question. Yeah. I have been to two different bars now where I'm trying to hide a human head in a kiddie bag. Why? Well, we're getting there. Like literally why? Why would we? This is why the timeline is important. It's all important to my story.
01:11:18
Speaker
So he leaves the bag, Jackson then comes back the next Monday, which is the next day. He goes back to the tavern where he left the bag and the owner's daughter said she remember being super light at this point when he leaves the bag. Right.
01:11:33
Speaker
gone at this point I want to say how have none of these people looked in the bag like they just let it chill at their bar by some random patron and no one looks in I guess the honor system right I mean I get a woman is like hey watch my purse will I go to the bathroom
01:11:52
Speaker
Maybe I'm just nosy, but I'm looking in that bag. Oh, well, I mean, if she hadn't returned in a day. Yeah, but he's like looking in the back. He's acting weird. He brings in this bag. He's asking you to hold it overnight. Everybody's like, this is heavy. What's in it? But they all just let him keep it. Well, clearly the trust system and the first tree back then was way.
01:12:12
Speaker
It was strong, so much more loyal. Yeah. So Jackson comes back to the tavern Monday night around 10 p.m., gets the bag and then brings it to Kugel and his bar. And that's where it stayed. He was supposed to come back and get it didn't. Everything breaks free on this case. And Kugel hears that he's been arrested. And I've got this bag. I'm not going to look at it, but I'm going to really, really feel like we're dealing with a really stupid criminal at this point. Are we?
01:12:37
Speaker
Well, no, because we don't really know it was in the bag. Because no one is nosy. Shame on you, 1800s. Way too trusting. So the police go to all these people in the timeline, all these bars, talk to everybody. Everybody confirms Scott Jackson is the one that brought the bag in, picked it up. Something was inside the bag up until the point he brought it to Kugels on Monday. So police confront Jackson just about the bag.
01:13:01
Speaker
Describe the bag. Do they does he know this bag? He's like, yeah, I know that bag. He said that he lent it to a friend and he wasn't really sure what happened to it. So then they they go back out of the interrogation room, come back and they're holding the bag and they're like this bag, the people that were in the bars at that time saw him. Yeah. So then he says that
01:13:24
Speaker
He didn't. So what he says happened is he went to get Pearl at this this this dive she checked herself into and he was going to get her a nicer room. So being the gentleman that he was, he took the bag and he carried it around because he's going to find her a new hostel to stay in. But he doesn't want to lug this bag around. So he's just leaving it at different bars while he's find our place to stay. He was going to get the bag, bring the bag to the new hotel he finds her, then get Pearl and bring her to the bag. Right. Yeah.
01:13:53
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah. So but at this point, they've got the bag and he knows his goose is cooked. So he starts to talk. So the plate flat out. Ask him, is this not the bag that you transported? Pearl's headed. Jackson said, well, I guess so. But I wasn't the one carrying it. That was Alonzo. He was the one carrying the bag. He was the one to put the head in Ohio River. So Joe has you. So he straight up said.
01:14:21
Speaker
Where the head is yep, and then accused someone else mm-hmm continue. Sorry. Oh it gets worse then it does It's you then Jackson tells the police will woods his friend is the one who actually got pro-pregnant his cousin
01:14:36
Speaker
And it was Will who asked Jackson to help him get rid of the baby by performing an illegal abortion when Will visited in January. But he told the police. I thought there were letters proving. This is just Jackson's. This is just Jackson talking.
01:14:51
Speaker
and he told the police that he told Will under no uncertain circumstances that he would not assist with an illegal abortion that Wood wanted him to do that was crazy but his roommate however Alonzo overheard
01:15:09
Speaker
them talking and saw these letters about the pregnancy. And Alonzo said that he would do the abortion because he was in digital school too and he could do it. So he tells the police that on Saturday, Walling had given him some of Pearl's clothes and asked Jackson to throw them in the river because her body had been found.
01:15:27
Speaker
So he's just kind of going all over the place basically everyone say that one more time. So he tells them Will Woods got his cousin Pearl pregnant. Yes, because their friends asked him to help in the illegal abortion. He said no, that was, you know, beyond the pale. So he said that his roommate Alonzo overheard or saw the letters.
01:15:46
Speaker
He could assist. Offered. It said that he could do it. But then all of a sudden Alonzo is bringing him women's clothes, Pearl's clothes saying, you've got to go throw these in the river for me. They found her body. So Jackson's completely distanced themselves and woven this huge tale that he's basically an innocent bystander and all this. He just knows awful people.
01:16:04
Speaker
Obviously, Will Woods is then arrested and brought in for questioning. He denies everything, obviously, and tells the police that it was Jackson who got Pearl pregnant. Jackson's the one, the one of the abortion and Walling was the one that said he knew a doctor and a chemist that was able to assist in the abortion and that Pearl would be taken care of afterwards by an elderly woman. So he knew I would assume that the chemist was the one handing them the drugs over to do all those potions. Yeah. Yeah. Potions. Sorry.
01:16:31
Speaker
So Will told the police that Pearl knew about the abortion and was OK with the plan, because honestly, she didn't have another option. She was stuck. Well, yeah, again, she's an affluent woman back in the 1800s. Unmarried 20. Yeah. Yeah. So he also tells the police it was all Jackson's idea and his doing. He told them this is walling. Sorry. So they go to walling now because Will's saying it's all Jackson and walling. Walling offered all these suggestions that are walling.
01:17:00
Speaker
And Walling tells the police everything was Jackson. It was his ideas and he was doing. He told them that starting in December of that year Jackson had told him Pearl was pregnant and he needed to get rid of her. Jackson told Walling just multiple ways that he was going to get rid of her. One of the ways included getting in her room and killing her, then dismembering her and taking the pieces of her body and scattering it throughout the city so no one would be able to tell who
01:17:26
Speaker
Like, put it together. Yeah. Alonzo said that soon after that, Jackson had been drinking with friends at a bar and asked them what's the best way to poison someone to kill them. And one of the guys drinking there was like, yeah, large dose of cocaine. That'll do it. Oh, my goodness.
01:17:41
Speaker
So he said that Jackson decided on cocaine and decided to take her to Fort Thomas to kill her that had walling take Pearl from place to place that weekend. Um, like, Hey, I'm going to go get the cocaine. You go pick up Pearl and bring her here at this place to meet me. I'm going to go do this. Basically making it to her walling was the one seen out and about with Pearl, not him. So he said in walling up in my opinion.
01:18:03
Speaker
Walling said that the last time we saw Pearl was the night of January 31st when she and Jackson drove off together towards the bridge towards Kentucky. Both Walling and Jackson gave enough information like they blamed each other. They blamed everybody else. They gave all this information right up to the murder. Both of them acted like they were not there. They didn't know what happened at the murder so they couldn't tell you.
01:18:23
Speaker
However, Walling was able to give the police a lot of physical evidence against Jack. He said that Jackson's discarded coat that was full of blood had been thrown down a sewer.
Witness Testimonies Against Jackson
01:18:32
Speaker
The police went. They were able to locate the jacket. It was still covered in blood. Here's the crapshoot. Back in those days, it's literally my word against yours. Oh, it's everybody absolutely could have done it himself.
01:18:45
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm sorry, guys. You're fine. Random intervention. Oh, yeah. So they find the coat. There's handkerchief stuck in the pocket, which were identified as pearls. Other pieces of clothing and items belonging to Pearl found in the sewers. They went to the dental school and searched the lockers and found pants covered in mud and blood and Jackson's locker. So Jackson admitted those clothes are his.
01:19:08
Speaker
but said that Walling must have borrowed them. They shared a room at the boarding house. He must have taken his clothes to commit the murder. And he had no idea how the mud and blood got on there. He also admitted to buying cocaine, but said that he only did it because Walling asked him to. He had no idea what Walling was going to use that cocaine for. So all this evidence is this is the reason where when you take a lie detector, it could be fake. It could be not fake. But for random people, it probably would have come in very handy. Yeah. Very handy.
01:19:38
Speaker
Because at this point, both of those stories, you don't know. Yeah, it's we're just pointing fingers and they're stacking up evidence against each other, but the evidence could swing either way. So multiple witnesses are also coming forward at this time to say they saw Pearl and Walling with Pearl with Walling and Jackson. There was a testimony that Jackson brought Pearl to the back room at a bar, which is where the women had to stay during this time. They weren't allowed to be in the same room as the men. And
01:20:07
Speaker
So he goes and he puts Pearl in his back room at the bar, away from the men, and then he goes back to the bar and orders a sarsaparilla for Pearl. Well, the crime is done. Nope. Pearl's still alive right now. Oh man. So he orders a sarsaparilla for Pearl, but the bartender says, tells the police that he watched Jackson slip something into that drink on his way back to bring that drink to Pearl. Wow.
01:20:31
Speaker
These are all people that are coming forward. Johnson, the bartender who admitted all this, also told police that when they were done with their drinks, Pearl and Jackson left the bar together and got into a carriage, which was being driven by a man, and that Walling was outside of the bar, but was not the man driving the carriage. Walling denied all this, stating that he wasn't even at the bar that night, but Johnson never wavered in his accounts of the evening. But see in my, okay, so nowadays we look at eyewitness accounts and we're like, eh, that can be wrong.
01:21:01
Speaker
But then back in the day where you see a guy and you're like, I saw him there. How do you discredit that? Well, I'll tell you why and again, please remember, this is not my personal opinion. This is 1890s situation. This is not your personal opinion or is not is not not not not not not Johnson the bartender who's giving all this information going against what walling is a black man.
01:21:25
Speaker
Please tell me that this is not more involvement in this. No, it is. He is a black man going against the word of a white man. Oh, in the 1800s. Yes. Where their opinions and testimonies and anything barely above irrelevant. Yes. Yeah. So they weren't even held to the same standard as women and women were definitely. Yeah. Segregation is still in full, of course. Absolutely.
01:21:48
Speaker
So stupid. Oh, my God. But that's where we're at. So Johnson, this bar, well done. His story never waivers, never changes in his accounts of the evening. He also says he knows the man that was driving the carriage that night. It was a barber by the name by the name of Fred Fred Albin, who was a known associate both Jackson and Walling. However, there are also other reports that he said that there's an unknown black man driving this carriage that night.
01:22:15
Speaker
But earlier you said that barbers and dentists. Yes, I did. OK. Doesn't matter because it's an unknown black man. So the police put out an ad in the paper for this unknown man who is driving the carriage, who was hired for that night to come forward with any information. He would not be prosecuted. He would not be in trouble for accusing a white man of a crime. Just please come forward and tell us what you know. So a man named George Jackson, no relation to Scott Jackson,
01:22:42
Speaker
comes forward and is assured by the police if this tells you about the times. Lisa, keep your outrage minimal. I don't, I can't. The police assures him that if he comes forward and cooperates and gives an honest account, he will be thanked and not hung up for speaking against a white man.
01:22:59
Speaker
Okay, i'm already gripping my mic a little bit harder. He will not be hanged for telling the truth against a white man. Oh my god That's literally like they had a promise in that. No, I get that I understand that those times back in the day, but shit Yeah, I am such an advocate for the fact that like at any point in time You cannot tell me that one of these stupid white people didn't think that's wrong and nobody
01:23:24
Speaker
Oh, all right. Nope. Different soapbox. Different. All right. George tells the police. Here's what happened that night. A man approached him and he was in a group of men asking if any of them wanted to earn five dollars and no one stepped forward. So George said that he did. He was told by this man that he was a doctor because when you're desperate for money and five dollars was a lot back then.
01:23:46
Speaker
I'm just saying desperation comes in every shape and size. But this man tells George that he's a doctor and that he and another doctor need help getting a sick woman across the river. And so George agrees he'll drive the carriage and he's told to wait at this corner.
01:24:02
Speaker
he's gonna go get the doctor and the woman and come back and meet him there which about 45 minutes later george is standing there and that's when they come the men in the carriage are identified by george as alonzo wallace he's the one that approached and hired him yep um who sat up front with george giving him directions on where to go and in the back was scott jackson and pearl brian
01:24:22
Speaker
George stated that he heard the woman continually groaning in the back like she was in pain and it scared him. So he wanted out of there. He is a black man with a woman in pain. Something's going wrong. White woman. He's going to get in trouble and he doesn't want anything to do with this. But he said that when he got up to leave and please excuse about what I'm about to say, Walling pulled a gun on him, tell him to sit his black ass down or he'd blow his head off. So George said he sat right back down.
01:24:51
Speaker
He said that they then stopped at Alexander Pike and the man got the woman out of the carriage pulling her into the bushes.
01:24:59
Speaker
He said that the woman continued to groan and moan in pain and then he heard her scream. And so he turned and skidded right out of there because honestly, he he knew these two men were killing this woman. And when they returned, they were going to kill him. One. Yeah. Best case scenario. Worst case scenario. He is a black man that is sitting there while a white woman is murdered. And who do you think is going to be the prime suspect? Absolutely.
01:25:24
Speaker
He ran all the way back to Ohio. So police go out to verify George's statement in his story. Let me guess. He got in trouble anyway. Listen, they find a toll collector who remembers seeing the carriage that night in question. The tolls weren't open. It was too late. So there's nothing there.
01:25:40
Speaker
but a woman named Miss O'Brien who lived nearby Alexander Pike says that she heard a woman scream right about the time that George said it happened. Also the moaning George reported verified that Pearl was still alive at the time of her murder when she was decapitated. Right. They also found that the carriage had been rented that night so they went to the owner and confirmed
01:26:03
Speaker
The people that rented it. It was Walling that rented the carriage. Because, you know, no matter what decade we're in, no matter what day and age we're in, criminals are still dumb enough to use their real name. Well, they just identified him. So when they go to the place where the carriage was rented, it actually wasn't Walling, but Scott Jackson, who rented the carriage. So since the coroner found that Pearl was actually when she was killed, she was killed in Kentucky where she was decapitated.
01:26:33
Speaker
The two men would have to be transferred from Cincinnati to Newport, from Ohio to Kentucky to stand trial. However, it took a while to transfer them because the courts feared that the mob would get them either en route or as soon as they got to Kentucky and kill them.
Trial and Transfer to Kentucky
01:26:48
Speaker
So they literally had to have trials about what to do with these two men and what to do with this case until an Ohio judge in March finally ruled that they would be transferred back to Kentucky to stand trial for this murder.
01:26:59
Speaker
Lorenzo and Jackson are transferred to Newport, Kentucky to await their trial. And it is said that the day that they are transferred, both men were pale and shaky, afraid that they are about to be killed. Don't care. That Pearl is scared as she's running through the apple orchard and Jackson's on her tail, but see that as it may. However, both men refused to tell where the head was. They were pressed by police to give information. They were even offered a deal, like a plea deal, lighter sentencing,
01:27:27
Speaker
but neither men would speak up about the head. They were eventually like, this is how far the police went. They brought these two men to the funeral home where Pearl's body was. Her body was laid out in her white graduation dress without her head in a casket. They would never do anything like that nowadays. Her entire family was standing there waiting for them.
01:27:45
Speaker
And the entire family begged them. It was said that one of her sisters literally fell on her knees crying saying, please tell us where her head is. And Jackson looked at her and said, can't say. So both men continue to blame each other, refusing to admit that they were present or had any information on the actual murder.
01:28:02
Speaker
at this point. So around this time in March, right before the court case starts, the Bryan family finally decides that it's time to bury Pearl. They had postponed it for almost two months at this point because it's been a March. She was found at the beginning of February. They kept continuing to postpone it because her dad did not want her buried without her head. He wanted her full
01:28:21
Speaker
to be buried, but apparently the other family members spoke up. And so they finally just said, you know, at this point, we do need to bury her. So on March 27th, she was laid to rest. And to this day, people will visit her grave and leave a penny heads up for her, the head up on her tombstone.
01:28:39
Speaker
You always have that random. Yeah, I just thought it was, you know. So on March 23rd, both men are arraigned. They've requested separate trials for the murder.
Jackson's Trial and Defense
01:28:49
Speaker
Neither men have been given a deal. So this is where they're going into court. Jackson is first prosecution depicts him. And I agree as a Jekyll and Hyde persona with two sides.
01:29:00
Speaker
Alan Johnson testified that he saw Jackson drug pearl string. The black bartender stood up and said, I watched this happen, gave his test, his testimony. George Jackson testified to all the events in the carriage, everything he saw. Another black man stepping forward, saying, this is what I saw. This is what happened. This is what happened. Both of them knowing that they could potentially be brought up on charges for speaking out. But did the right thing. Yeah. Did the right thing. No, no.
01:29:26
Speaker
George Jack being like the star witness. Everyone like loved him. Couldn't find a single thing against him. You know what, though? That's somebody who's selfless. This might do the right. Amen to them. Yeah. The original way you could suffer and your consequence and do it anyway. You're a champ champ. So Tingly, the original corner on the scene testified that Pearl was alive when she was decapitated. And then John Hughling testified about the state of the body when he came upon it that morning walking to work.
01:29:54
Speaker
All the bar owners and that that that timeline earlier testified about the times the bag was brought and dropped off, brought and dropped off and all their conversations with Jackson at that point. At one point, this is just a funny side bit, too. At one point during the trial, like it's on a recess or something. So Jackson is walking into another room past this mob of angry people. Right. And apparently there was this woman in the crowd that was really pissed and called off and kicked him as hard as she could and lies. Tell me it was nuts. That's what I said. I was just going to say.
01:30:23
Speaker
I know a guy. I know a guy that can help. One of the podcasts I actually said, I still hope they got him in the nads. Oh, that's funny. But public opinion was very much against Jackson. However, the defense came up and put Jackson up on the stand to speak for himself, which was a bold move, in my opinion. He testified that Will Wood was the one that sent Pearl to Cincinnati.
01:30:47
Speaker
He testified that the only contact he had was Pearl was to try to get her a better room than she originally booked for herself. He said that he had her bag with him because he was trying to bring it to the better lodgings and to put it in the new room he got Pearl. Jackson also testified at this time that it was Walling that found him while he's trying to find a better room for her carrying the bag. Walling found him telling him that Pearl had been killed and he panicked. So he got all of her stuff and they had to get rid of it now. And that's what they did.
01:31:12
Speaker
Multiple witnesses were called to the stand to support like in support of Jackson character witnesses, things like that. However, I do think it's important to mention that almost every single one of his hundred of witnesses that came forward was found out later that they were coached and paid to lie on the stands for him. Nice. One man, William Trusty, just to show an example.
01:31:33
Speaker
Trust. I know. He testified that he drove Pearl's body across the bridge to Fort Thomas on behalf of Jackson and Walling, but she was already dead. He said that she had died in a botched abortion attempt, even though the coroner has already testified that there was no evidence of rape. Right. No evidence of abortion.
01:31:52
Speaker
head was gone. And the autopsy found the five month old fetus inside her. So there obviously wasn't an abortion attempt. This was trustee's testimony. Not smart. He finally broke down on cross-examination stating that his uncle coached him. His uncle was a detective to BTW. His uncle coached him, tell him what to say and do. And he was arrested on the spot for perjury and brought to jail. Yeah. So on May 12th, closing arguments were delivered back then. They convict people of that crap. Nowadays, you can pay an inmate.
01:32:22
Speaker
Yeah, to lie to lie and they don't get arrested for perjury. No, no, no, no, no. Like like in the Sonny Jacobs case. Yes, that's the one literally that I was thinking about right now.
Guilty Verdicts and Sentencing
01:32:33
Speaker
Yep. So closing arguments are given and on May 14th, the jury brings back a verdict of guilty on first degree murder with a sentence of death by hanging.
01:32:42
Speaker
So Jackson, when Walling was told about the verdict against Jackson that day, he stated, I'm not surprised. Walling's trial then comes up starting June 2nd, and it's basically the exact same song and dance as the first trial, except Walling's blaming Jackson instead of the other way around. On June 19th, the trial is concluded, and the jury is said to literally be in the little verdict room for like five minutes tops, and that's pushing it, and they come back out, give a sentence of guilty first degree murder,
01:33:12
Speaker
Sentenced with death by hanging and walling was said to just look at the jury and smile and then curse at them. So execution dates are set. You think this isn't a story like they're both sentenced to hang, right? Wrong. execution dates are set. And of course, they're continually pushed back due to appeals. Finally, in 1897, which I want to point out is just one whole year later and not that bad.
01:33:40
Speaker
Now it's like 10 years, but whatever. At least. One of the reasons they kept dragging their feet on giving an execution date and letting these appeals go through was because officials were hoping that one of the men would speak up about where the head was. Hidden, discarded, wherever. That does make sense.
01:33:58
Speaker
Both men separately were even offered a reduced sentence of life in prison. No death penalty
Executions and Final Statements
01:34:04
Speaker
by hanging if they would just disclose where the head had been discarded. Here's what I'm thinking. You have two guys. Yeah. One of them, if not both of them are guilty. Yeah. But if one of them is guilty and one of them is innocent, innocent person's always going to stick to their story. Yeah.
01:34:19
Speaker
The guilty one is going to continue to reflect, right? They're just going to direct it back to that one person. OK, so in my mind, they probably all had something to do with it, but none of them were smart enough to say, I want no part of this. I'm out. They were given multiple. Again, you're already been convicted of death and you're told, you know what, we will stay your execution. Just tell us when the head was discarded. Again, one of them may not have ever known.
01:34:48
Speaker
Yeah, but the other one is so hellbound on telling you he was innocent. He is never going to confess. Watch you hang out with people. Well, they're all nuts. I'm telling you, it gets wild. Neither one ever gives the information. The appeal process is finally complete. Neither man get any reduced sentences and both of their deaths by hanging are scheduled for March 20th, 1897. So a little over a year and a month later from the death. At this point, Jackson decides to talk.
01:35:18
Speaker
But not about the head. He talks to the New York Times and gives a statement. This whole case is a lie. The police lied under oath. The carriage driver, George Jackson, lied his black ass off, making up the entire story. Jackson's story was airtight. He led them everywhere.
01:35:35
Speaker
He actually brought them on a road the carriage took, brought Sheriff Plumlee. The sheriff didn't even know the road existed. He literally brought them everywhere the carriage, everywhere it stopped. There were witnesses, everyone knew. His story was concrete. No one ever thought to look against that man. When people say desperate times call for desperate measures,
01:35:57
Speaker
Alonzo wrote a note to the Bryan family and he asked the prison Reverend, Reverend Lee to deliver this to the family and he told the Reverend once the family read his note, they would request the governor to commute his sentence immediately, but no one in the family would read the note. Pearl's brother wouldn't even let the Reverend near the rest of the family and to this day it is not known what that note entails.
01:36:24
Speaker
which is freaking frustrating. I have a reference to that. If you care to let me speak, go ahead. Do you remember when Whitney Houston died vaguely? She interrupted an interview between Brandi and Monica. Yeah, yeah. Handed Brandi a note. Brandi to this day will not disclose.
01:36:43
Speaker
No one has read that. Exactly. This note was destroyed. The Reverend never opened. I was going to say, Brandi is the only one. No, no one read this note. No one. The Pearl's brother stopped the Reverend from bringing the note to the rest of the family. The brother refused to read it. The Reverend would not go against Alonzo and read the note. The note was destroyed. No one knows. Not a single person knows what this note like. The only thing that I could think of as a family unit is that they were so tired of the back.
01:37:12
Speaker
and forth, back and forth.
01:37:15
Speaker
Who's guilty, he's guilty, she's guilty. They were just done. They're not guilty. They buried their daughter. They want to be left in half their children or dead at this point. They're mourning. Six of their kids, one brutally murdered, pregnant. So in a last ditch effort to save themselves, 48 hours prior to the sentence, the two men together issued a joint statement to the public pointing the finger at a man named Dr. George Wagner as the man who killed Pearl in a botched abortion attempt. Oh.
01:37:43
Speaker
The statement read, Dr. Wagner had put Pearl into the carriage after a botched abortion and on the road, both men were in the carriage with Pearl and the doctor. The doctor then brought her into the country where he cut off her head, took possession of the head and left. And neither men knew where this doctor was or the head.
01:38:03
Speaker
That's awesome because I don't see an abortion being back in back in the day like that. Not messy. I don't. OK, but from all of the all of the things that you have said to this point. Yeah. The only evidence that was shown with the blood spatter and all the other crap is that where her head was chopped up.
01:38:22
Speaker
But here's my question. There was damage to her vagina. They said the head was and the botched abortion could have been a chemical like he gave her the wrong dosage or something and killed her. All right. But either way, here's my thing. Why did neither of them bring Dr. Wagner up before this point? They Jackson literally blamed everyone, including her cousin of fathering. And if it were true, if it were true, that had been the first person that somebody would throw under the bus.
01:38:48
Speaker
Plus, they said that the doctor killed her in a botched abortion attempt, brought her body into the country to cut her head off. Which isn't true. But both corners have already stated she was alive when she was decapitated. So the story doesn't ring true any no matter which way. Police do go look and find Dr. Wagner, who was committed to an asylum in Kentucky. Right. So it's like the kind of doctor that we were talking about earlier. Yeah. But there was no Internet.
01:39:13
Speaker
Dr. Wagner did said he didn't know Lauren Lorenzo. He didn't know Jackson. He didn't know Pearl and he had an alibi He was with his family that night However, there are many there There are a lot of theories on this and a lot of people have a hard problem with why was he in that asylum? Did he know more than he was did he there's just a lot known not known about him But I think he's a red herring I was thinking that if you get sent to an asylum at that point there is something mentally unstable about you and
01:39:42
Speaker
Yes. But how did they know? No, I was going to say it doesn't mean that he's not honest. Yeah. So the governor dismisses the statement in its entirety and said that the execution would continue his plan. Sheriff Plummer was the one that had to pull the lever. Governor said you're the one that's going to do it and kill these two men. But Plummer was very uncomfortable with this. He did not want to do it. He even went so far as to go to the corner and say, listen,
01:40:07
Speaker
I need you to be with me that day just in case I can't pull the lever. You're going to have to do it for me. I need someone there that can do it if I can't. But also the sheriff demanded that both hangings happen at the same time because he knew he wouldn't be able to do it a second time. Like this poor sheriff is just he's tapped out, buddy. He's already said this is above his pay grade. But literally, like he has said here and listen to the testimonies of so many people.
01:40:31
Speaker
pointing the finger back and forth and unable in his own heart to determine what's a lie and what is yeah and he's just anybody that sits on a jury little Kentucky sheriff and he just doesn't have the stomach for this but he knows it needs to be done so
01:40:48
Speaker
On the last night before their execution, it stated that Walling basically went to sleep and slept the whole night through. While Jackson stayed up, pacing around his cell, talking to the guards, looking out the windows, pacing, pacing, and then finally around three o'clock, he passed out. Both men were awoken at 5.30 a.m. to get ready for execution. And just minutes before their execution, as they're walking to the scaffold, Jackson drops a bomb.
01:41:14
Speaker
He looks at Sheriff Palmer and says, Alonzo Walling is not guilty of the murder of Pearl Bryan. I am wouldn't say anything else. But he did write that statement down to be sent to the governor. And it was stated that Walling looked around and yelled for God's sake. Get like help me. Yeah. Do it. Wow. So.
01:41:33
Speaker
Governor Bradley responded at 1015 a.m. and said that he wanted to sit down and talk to Jackson in person and if Jackson was smart would give him a full confession including where Pearl's head was left
01:41:48
Speaker
discarded then and only then would Lorenzo Walling be free but Jackson did not do that said nope and both men continued on to be hanged if he wouldn't do that well that's what he just looked at the sheriff and said hey I really didn't know
01:42:03
Speaker
That's the only way that I can actually. Well, we've got some theories. We're getting to it. All right. So the governor's responses read and Jackson responded with, I don't know where her head is and refused to speak any further on the matter about Walling. Just shut up and stop talking. So the the biggest theory, which I 100 percent agree with, is it was just a stall tax by Jackson. He had no intention of letting Walling off and taking the blame.
01:42:27
Speaker
He literally thought, if I say Walling wasn't involved and it was all me, they can't kill me because they need my testimony and I will have a stay of execution to get off of this somehow. Because he was a cocky SOB. Yeah. And he thought I'd get away with it. So Walling attempted to get the mayor to give a 30-day reprieve due to Jackson's statement and the mayor asked where the head is. Asked that to Walling. And Walling states, I swear to God, I do not know what he did with the head. I don't know.
01:42:54
Speaker
So after hearing these interviews or going nowhere, the governor says, that's it. We're done. Execution will continue. And at 11 30, both men are walked out to the scaffolding where they would be sentenced to death, where they'd be put to death. Walling continues the entire way to the scaffolding to say that man could set me free. I'm innocent. And he knows this, but he will not say, I can't give you the information you want. I do not know what he did with it. Please help me. All the way to the scaffolding. Both men stand side by side to be put to death.
01:43:23
Speaker
Jackson was asked if he had any last words to which he's quiet and there's a slight pause that's longer than usual and everybody there thinks he's finally gonna break and like give her a pearl's head is what happened give a statement clearing walling something and Jackson finally says I only have this to say I'm not guilty of the crime in which I'm about to pay the penalty with my life.
01:43:42
Speaker
the crime that 30 minutes ago he said that he did and Walling didn't. Right. He's just a sociopath. Like he couldn't tell the truth about anything. And with that Scott Jackson just refused to speak again. Walling was asked if he had any last words and his only words is I'm innocent. Reverend Lee prayed with both men. The officers placed black bags over both the men's heads and finally Sheriff Plummer pulled the lever at 11 47 at 11 I'm sorry at 11 40 a.m. and both men fell at the same time down five feet and eight
01:44:12
Speaker
However, fortunately, someone miscalculated. Both men were said to be very slender and did not weigh a lot and it wasn't taken into account. So when they dropped instead of their neck breaking, they didn't break. It took them in 15 to 20 minutes to choke to death in front of a crowd of over 100 people.
01:44:31
Speaker
At 1150, their pulses were taken and their hearts were still beating. It wasn't until 1155 that both men were declared to be dead. The bodies were cut down and put into caskets and taken away. Jackson's was immediately cremated because they assumed that if his body was buried, it'd be dug up and souvenirs would be taken by people.
01:44:52
Speaker
Walling was given back to his family for burial. To this day, August 17th, 2022, Pearl's head has never been found, which is why people go and leave Penny's heads up on her tombstone to give her a head.
Closing Theories on Pearl's Head
01:45:04
Speaker
So these are the three theories on what happened to Pearl's head. I'm going to give them to you real quick. I have my opinion.
01:45:10
Speaker
The first theory is the men threw her head down a well at a local slaughterhouse in Kentucky nearby the orchard. The other theory is Jackson buried the head and the walls are the floorboard of the boarding house they lived in. Actually, like 30 years later, the building was condemned to being demolished and the head of the demolition told his employees to be on the watch for a severed head.
01:45:35
Speaker
Never found the most popular theory and the one I personally think is most likely is that Jackson took the head to the dental school and put it in the incinerator where the cadavers were burned to be completely destroyed. This, which is why, which is why Saturday, Sunday and Monday, he kept moving that bag. He couldn't get into the dental school in the weekend. So he was moving that bag, not at his location. And on Monday, he brought the bag to Cooley's, waited for school to open and was going to go back and get the bag.
01:46:05
Speaker
He'd already incinerated the head he was gonna go back and destroy the bag But he was arrested before he could destroy the back and that's the most popular theory is that he destroyed her head in the incinerator It's all ash But he never would say because then no one else pays for the crime along with him and he liked to blame everybody else around him That's insane that
01:46:24
Speaker
Is the story. That's good. Earl Bryant. That's a good one. I know. OK, I originally found this story because seriously, a shoe store owner is what broke the case wide open. They wouldn't have known it. But then I got into all this other stuff and I was like, oh, this is going to be such a long episode, which it was an hour and a half. So sorry. Yeah, no, it's fun. But it's freaking interesting stories that I'm sitting here and I was like, if I was ever to sit in a jury box and listen to this,
01:46:50
Speaker
Oh, how do you choose? How do you choose? I honestly believe I believe Walling was there with them that weekend. I think obviously several accounts he was with Jackson Pearl at different times. I think that he was on board with helping with the abortion. Pearl knew about the abortion and was OK with it because she didn't have a choice. Right. But remember, the crime scene showed one man's footprints and one woman's footprint. So when they brought her into the bush,
01:47:16
Speaker
And she screamed. She was probably all those groans of pain. It's thought that she was actually having having a miscarriage from all the cocaine that he fed her. Right. And they were getting her out in the way. But the actual decapitation, like all that happening, there was only one man and one woman's footprint. I think Jackson did it. I think Walling chose poor friends and he was too weak to stand up for himself.
01:47:40
Speaker
And that that's like one of the main and he didn't think his friend would go that far. Yeah. And he just got stuck. And he honestly, it's like, you know how you like you're talking to your kid, your kid and you're like, oh, well, if they said that about you, they're not your friend. Yeah. Right. And these are things that we try to instill in kids. But then when you're an adult and you have an adult coming at you and they're like, I need your help with A, B or C adults are still doing this. Yeah.
01:48:06
Speaker
I think that Walling honestly had no idea what he did with the head. I think he would have told them because he kept saying, I don't know what he did with it. I don't know. He had the head in the bag. That's what he had. My honest opinion. And he's bringing it to all these bars until the dental score opens. He incinerates the head, hides the bag in a different bar, was going to go back for it, but got arrested. Walling wasn't Walling was never all the eyewitnesses at all those bars when he's bringing that bag around all weekend. No one ever said Walling was with him. It was Jackson alone with the bag.
01:48:35
Speaker
bringing it from bar to bar to bar, all these little hidey spots. I honestly think that Walling was nothing more than a fall guy. I think he was a patsy because he was a fall guy. The last time Jackson committed a crime, he had a fall guy. He testified against him. He was fine. He tried the same exact. He made sure there was a black man around that could take the fall drive in the carriage. He made sure that he had a gullible white guy that was there that he made sure people saw with Pearl. He tried to send it all up to where he was just a cocky bastard and he didn't think he'd get caught. Right. And Walling was just
01:49:06
Speaker
Awkward, naive, young kid. I mean, because Jackson was 27, 28. Walling was seven years younger. So he's 20, 21. Like he's just a young, dumb kid. Didn't know. Like, I mean, he's naive. Even his friend said he's got a slow mind. He's weak willed and he's not that bright. Doesn't have any life experience.
01:49:25
Speaker
Right. So he just he was the perfect patsy and Jackson made sure to have these people around him to blame. And I think Walling I think Walling deserved, which honestly, a lot of the people in the court system that in that day said Walling did not deserve to be put to death. He deserved to go to jail for being an accomplice.
01:49:43
Speaker
But nobody believes Walling actually took it took like helped in the actual murder and knew what happened. He just didn't know enough information because Jackson hid that portion from him. So he couldn't rat Jackson out. Right. And so Walling was put to death just solely because he was a patsy. Like that was it much. Yeah.
01:50:03
Speaker
Almost all the officers, guards, everyone said that. Like he should never have been put to death. He should have been. He should have probably had life in prison. But again, the law at that time is so 100 percent different. That and you couldn't. It was a he said, she said there was enough evidence against both of them. And and you can say that a jury convicted them. But at that point, they were the whole place was mob mentality. Oh, absolutely. You can't tell me they had an impartial jury. The jury wanted both of those men to fry. Right.
01:50:29
Speaker
And quite frankly, kudos because I can't believe no one didn't turn against George Jackson, the man that drives the carriage. Yeah, I cannot believe they let him go. Scott free, which he deserved to. He had no idea he was he was just hired to drive a taxi. I had no idea he skirted as soon as he could. Yeah. Well, again, you're saying that George Jackson because he was an African-American man. That's why they got observed. Yeah, exactly. And that's what he did. He was manipulating. He was cunning.
01:50:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And he got Jackson. Scott Jackson had everything lined up perfectly. And honestly, I think that if Scott Jackson, if her family didn't know that they were together and he wasn't the first one to get arrested, he would have been able to get away with it. Yeah. He was the first one arrested and there was too much evidence against him by the time everyone else was brought in. Yeah. The only second part, the only second part is all the people he associated with had to suffer too.
01:51:20
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, well, once you can't tell me, I don't care how big of an. So if you're younger in this audience, I want you to remember one thing. Friends are important. If you get into a situation where you have a friend and he becomes very, she becomes very, I don't even know the word I'm looking for, cunning.
01:51:39
Speaker
Manipulative. You just need to be careful who you're friends with. Yeah. Walk away. Like if they're trying to convince you to go online and eat a tide pod, that's not a friend. OK. Nope. I hated it when my dad told me this when I was younger, but I 100 percent agree with it. You lay down with dogs, you get up with the police.
01:51:56
Speaker
Absolutely. And he used to always give me the example to like, he would stand, he would have me as a child stand on, no, no, he would stand on a chair. And as a child, I would stand on the ground and he would say, he'd grab my hand. He tried to pull me up and it was hard for him to pull me up. He's up high. Yeah. And then he'd give me his hand and say, pull me off this chair. I can do it easy peasy.
01:52:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's always easier to pull someone down than pull someone up. Absolutely. And that's what he would tell me. And I hated it, but it is applicable. Who your friends are dictate like a lot in your life and they can ruin your life without your consent or knowledge just because of an association. Yep. And I want to tell you something else. Actually, your, your analogy was amazing. My mom used to tell me nothing good happened.
01:52:39
Speaker
happens after midnight. I got that one too. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you some guys at 36 years old live in the life that I've led. Nothing good happens after midnight, but either way, she should tell me 2 a.m. Midnight. I was okay. I was a good kid though. Like I did not party. I did not get in trouble.
01:52:57
Speaker
Like when I was out past midnight, I was with a bunch of church friends and we were watching a movie or like having a bonfire. But there was absolutely no going to my past because it wasn't like that at all. But yeah, my parents always said it was either two or three a.m. Nothing good happens after two or three a.m. Whatever time it was. But again, I legitimate I was too afraid of disappointing my parents to even think about towing outside the line.
01:53:20
Speaker
Yeah, I was just a snake. But what I'm saying is you need to figure out who you're willing to trust. And I guarantee you're going to get you there that I don't know, man. All right. Life lessons over either way. Faith. Why? With the stories that you tell, am I always left like just aggravated? Because now I'm sitting here and I'm like, two men died. One man, one man was guilty.
01:53:42
Speaker
Yeah, a hundred percent. You can't convince me otherwise. You're a whore. And I really thought that my story was like a gem. I thought your story was great. It was good. It really was. Hey, I have a statement I want to make so bad and I'm going to say it and you're going to edit it out. But it's like both of us, both of our stories wound up without a head.
01:54:04
Speaker
Oh, you're going to have to edit it. OK. All right. If you would like to be a podcast co-host, send your information. Www.LisaSucks.com on the black web. Dark web, whatever. It's the black web.
01:54:20
Speaker
That's great. Oh, Lord, have mercy. All right. Well, we've gone way over. As usual, I went way over. So we are going to hop right on out of here. And I hope you, I guess, enjoyed our stories. We're all here because we're morbid and weird. So I hope you enjoyed the stories.
01:54:38
Speaker
And look, a little comic relief over some stupid things that happened. Yep. Thank you. You know, it's not a bad thing. No, it's not. I do feel bad for Walling. I think that he got caught up in something he didn't know he was caught up in. I feel bad for that 28 year old. I mean, you know, you can say all day long you brought it on himself, but desperate times, desperate times. What 28 year old Virginia man?
01:55:00
Speaker
Oh, I thought you were talking about my guy. I was like, what do you mean you feel bad for Scott Jackson? He basically the antichrist. No. OK, no, you're your unnamed man. He brought it on himself. He wanted that castration. But yeah, again, you never know what he's a lie. Touche. And his organs aren't on the black web. Dark web. I know. But now it's the black web.
01:55:22
Speaker
Let's do it. All right. Well, we got to go research because we got to record here in a few days, but I hope you guys have a Splendiferous week and we will be talking in your earbuds soon. Hope you guys have a great week. Bye.