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Can Men And Women Be Friends?
47 Plays3 years ago
A Male FDS Patreon subbie wonders if he would be a scrote if he pursued a relationship with a woman he's currently friends with now that she's single. The Queens tackle the age old conundrum of male-female friendships and present various scenarios when platonic friendships can work and when they're likely to blow up in your face. Just say no to Pu$$y Scavengers.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast & Podcorn
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of the Female Dating Strategy Podcast has been brought to you by Podcorn.com.
00:00:05
Speaker
We've used it to connect with other female-led podcasts, some of which you may have heard advertised on our show.
00:00:10
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We primarily use Podcorn to find our advertisers.
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It's a great matchmaking service between advertisers and podcast creators.
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And with Podcorn, there isn't a middleman.
00:00:20
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And this means that we've been able to work alongside other brands and seek out opportunities that best fit with us.
00:00:27
Speaker
Podcorn is a marketplace connecting podcasters to amazing podcast sponsorship opportunities such as host-read ads, interview segments, topical discussions, and more.
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Speaker
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Speaker
Explore sponsorship opportunities and start monetizing your podcast by signing up at podcorn.com forward slash podcasters.
00:00:56
Speaker
That's podcorn.com forward slash podcasters.
00:00:59
Speaker
Check the link in the show notes.
00:01:01
Speaker
Hey, queens.
Patreon Invitation & Community Perks
00:01:02
Speaker
Are you ready to level up?
00:01:04
Speaker
Then join our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy where you can find weekly bonus content and FDS commentary on all the latest pop culture relationship and dating news.
00:01:16
Speaker
If you just want to listen to the extra bonus content, we have the lurker mode tier on our Patreon.
00:01:21
Speaker
If you want merchandise, back
00:01:23
Speaker
access to the private FDS Patreon Discord, which also includes a monthly book club with FDS and feminist themed books, as well as FDS merchandise, t-shirts, mugs, and the opportunity to discuss topics with the FDS Podcast Queens live, as well as submit stories for our Rose Disco Queen and Nasus discussions on the podcast itself.
00:01:44
Speaker
So if you'd like access to all this and more, visit our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy.
New Segment: 'Scroat Strike Back'
00:01:56
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:01:57
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:02:01
Speaker
I'm Ro.
00:02:02
Speaker
I'm Savannah.
00:02:03
Speaker
And I'm Lilla.
00:02:04
Speaker
So today's episode was inspired by a question we got, the very first question we got on our Scroat Strike Back tier from one of our male Patreon subscribers.
00:02:13
Speaker
So we recently launched the Scroat Strike Back tier, and it was designed to give men the opportunity to ask us dating questions.
00:02:20
Speaker
Or debate questions.
00:02:21
Speaker
Or debate questions.
00:02:22
Speaker
And
00:02:23
Speaker
To my great disappointment, it's been mostly really nice, tame questions as well as like a lot of men who just want to support FDS just to support us.
00:02:31
Speaker
And I'm a little bit grossed out because I really wanted to fight.
00:02:35
Speaker
The bro had her gloves on.
00:02:36
Speaker
She's like, ding, ding, ding.
00:02:38
Speaker
Round one.
00:02:40
Speaker
No opponent so far.
00:02:41
Speaker
Bruh, I thought I was going to be like answering troll questions every week and like roasting the shit out of them.
00:02:47
Speaker
But so far, everyone's been really nice and supportive.
00:02:49
Speaker
And like one guy, one guy was like, I don't know if I was supposed to, but I think I might have gotten access to the discord.
00:02:56
Speaker
And I just wanted to check if that was okay.
00:02:58
Speaker
And I'm like, man.
00:03:00
Speaker
Y'all are inbox asking us permission for shit.
00:03:03
Speaker
That's actually really nice.
00:03:04
Speaker
Yeah, I like that.
00:03:05
Speaker
It's wholesome.
00:03:06
Speaker
It's really sweet.
00:03:07
Speaker
And we have quite a few male Patreon subscribers on the lurker mode as well.
00:03:11
Speaker
So I appreciate all of you guys.
00:03:12
Speaker
I'm just teasing you.
00:03:13
Speaker
But I did think that we would get a lot more contrarian combative energy here.
00:03:17
Speaker
So I could have my opportunity to flex my row skills.
00:03:20
Speaker
So...
00:03:21
Speaker
Clap back, queen.
00:03:21
Speaker
If you're a man and you don't like the things that we say and you want to like clap back and debate us, I'm still open to that.
00:03:26
Speaker
But
Q&A: Asking Out a Female Friend
00:03:27
Speaker
we're going to answer this question from David, who sent us in a question about being friends with a woman he's attracted to.
00:03:34
Speaker
So I don't know who wants to read this one.
00:03:35
Speaker
I can read it.
00:03:36
Speaker
So is it possible for a man and a woman to be friends, if very unlikely?
00:03:41
Speaker
I met this woman and was attracted to her, but I learned that she was not single and decided that I was fine with that.
00:03:47
Speaker
I'm aware that I am my own enemy in trying to be actual just friends with her.
00:03:52
Speaker
Okay, that's hilarious.
00:03:53
Speaker
And have watched, monitored my reasons and expectations while friendship has developed.
00:03:58
Speaker
She's recently become single and while I know and understand and don't expect and don't need this to be anything more than a friendship, I would like to ask her after enough time that I believe I wouldn't be preying on some scroty sense of vulnerability if she would like to explore a relationship with me.
00:04:12
Speaker
Can I hear your thoughts on whether this would always be a scrote move?
00:04:16
Speaker
I would appreciate the opportunity to clarify this word spaghetti if I haven't managed to express myself clearly.
00:04:22
Speaker
So he has some links to some Reddit posts where a lot of women are complaining about men saying they're their friends, but like secretly it's just a ploy to get them to have sex with them.
00:04:31
Speaker
And women in general not enjoying being sexualized by men they consider to be friends or have presented themselves as friends.
00:04:38
Speaker
So we're going to dissect that conflict.
00:04:40
Speaker
I don't know.
00:04:41
Speaker
What's the best word to describe this quagmire?
00:04:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's a nuance and like a... It's a nuanced discussion, I think.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:48
Speaker
About like male and female friendships.
00:04:50
Speaker
And I mean, obviously, a lot of relationships do start from friendships.
00:04:54
Speaker
And sometimes that's welcomed and sometimes it's not.
00:04:57
Speaker
And so I think that the question is, is how is it appropriate to go about it?
00:05:02
Speaker
And
Evolving Friendships to Romance
00:05:03
Speaker
what are the appropriate boundaries in place?
00:05:05
Speaker
First of all, yeah, I do think that some of the best relationships actually can start out as friends.
00:05:11
Speaker
It depends on how you go about, you know, depends on your delivery, your execution.
00:05:15
Speaker
Obviously, if they're the sort to, you know, wait until you're like drunk and like alone or something like that, or in a vulnerable situation or like emotionally vulnerable, something like that, I consider that predatory.
00:05:26
Speaker
But I personally don't think there's anything wrong with a man shooting his shot as long as he...
00:05:32
Speaker
you know, a man that you're friends with, you know, shooting a shot.
00:05:34
Speaker
I would rather a man just like ask me on a date and then I can either say yes or no, rather than like him kind of waiting in the wings, you know, waiting for me to be vulnerable, you know, that kind of thing.
00:05:44
Speaker
Right.
00:05:45
Speaker
So I'd say it's better to be upfront.
00:05:47
Speaker
And if she says no, just accept that answer, be mature about it.
00:05:51
Speaker
You know, whether she wants to be friends or not after that is her decision.
00:05:54
Speaker
You know, if you're concerned, oh, can it ruin the relationship?
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, it might.
00:05:58
Speaker
So just be aware of that risk going into it.
00:06:00
Speaker
I'd also add as well, it's important for, in response, I guess, in a part response to the question, in order to read the room as well.
00:06:09
Speaker
I've always said that women, we often give off cues if we're into somebody in that way.
00:06:15
Speaker
If she's shown absolutely no interest and you've been friends for years, I think it's unlikely that it's going to be a welcome thing.
00:06:23
Speaker
You have to read the room as well.
00:06:24
Speaker
Like, if she's expressed absolutely no interest in dating you, then, yeah.
00:06:28
Speaker
Yeah, there's two missing pieces here.
00:06:30
Speaker
One of them is how they met, right?
00:06:32
Speaker
Were they work friends?
00:06:33
Speaker
Was it like more of a casual friend of a friend thing that they met?
00:06:37
Speaker
Because, you know, obviously if they met off a dating app or something and then she doesn't pursue the relationship, then yeah, you're out of luck, buddy.
00:06:43
Speaker
Right?
00:06:44
Speaker
Like she's keeping you around as a friend.
00:06:46
Speaker
If it's, if you've been...
00:06:48
Speaker
around each other in more of a professional capacity and it's never really crossed the line, then I think it's probably okay to shoot your shot.
00:06:55
Speaker
Obviously, as long as you're not crossing any ethical boundaries between whatever, if you have any type of employment situation, et cetera.
00:07:01
Speaker
But more than likely, if you're still hanging around, women tend to assume, I would say,
00:07:08
Speaker
Maybe I don't know if I should say this, but I think women tend to assume you're into them on some level.
00:07:12
Speaker
If you keep contacting them and you're not like, you know, you don't have a specific reason to be contacting her.
00:07:18
Speaker
Right.
00:07:19
Speaker
So, for example, like, are you both into the same things?
00:07:22
Speaker
Like if it's like, oh, we go see we're both in a Spider-Man or something.
00:07:26
Speaker
So then you have something to talk about.
00:07:27
Speaker
If it's just more like you keep both of the same hobby or whatever.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, same hobby.
00:07:31
Speaker
Like if you're meeting her, like you have the same hobby and you're hanging out, then you have a reason to hang out.
00:07:36
Speaker
If you're a guy that just like keeps touching base with this woman every once in a while, it probably is going to come across to most women that like, oh, he's just fishing to see if we can date.
00:07:44
Speaker
I think some more context would be appropriate here as far as like how you know her and what venue you know her.
00:07:50
Speaker
And yeah, the context of your relationship as well.
00:07:52
Speaker
That's also important.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:53
Speaker
So
Complexities of Male-Female Friendships
00:07:54
Speaker
like for me personally, my boyfriend, we met at work and at the time, like he was going through a divorce and I was in a relationship.
00:08:01
Speaker
And so that was like the situation three years ago.
00:08:05
Speaker
And so that's why we didn't, we were just like friends and didn't pursue anything until we both were single at the same time.
00:08:11
Speaker
And actually, even though we were both single for a while, I still made him wait like another year and a half after that.
00:08:17
Speaker
But it's like the situation, it depends on, yeah, it depends on like also the reason why, why hasn't it become more than a friendship?
00:08:25
Speaker
You know, why were you, why were you friends?
00:08:27
Speaker
Was it because of the circumstances?
00:08:30
Speaker
You know, like, so, okay.
00:08:33
Speaker
At the time, we did have a bit of a flirtationship, to be honest.
00:08:37
Speaker
So there was sexual tension.
00:08:39
Speaker
Even other people... There was one person who straight up said that they're shipping us.
00:08:46
Speaker
And I was like, I'm in a relationship.
00:08:48
Speaker
And this is work.
00:08:49
Speaker
I don't date co-workers kind of thing.
00:08:51
Speaker
And was like...
00:08:52
Speaker
No way.
00:08:52
Speaker
Never to million years at the time.
00:08:55
Speaker
And so, like, if sometimes the circumstances can change, though.
00:08:59
Speaker
So, again, like, if you've, how do I say this?
00:09:02
Speaker
Like, if there's no sexual tension, if there's no chemistry, if, like, you don't vibe super well with each other, like, I'd probably say maybe not.
00:09:12
Speaker
shoot your shot, you know?
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, like, read the room, basically.
00:09:15
Speaker
Like, read the room, yeah.
00:09:16
Speaker
Like, kind of, like Savannah said, like, get a sense if she likes you that way.
00:09:20
Speaker
If she, if you're not getting that vibe, like, maybe, maybe don't.
00:09:24
Speaker
But it's up to you to weigh the risks and rewards, basically.
00:09:28
Speaker
Because that's one of the most annoying things about dealing with men.
00:09:31
Speaker
They just think if you so much as smile in their direction or send them a nice word that you want to fuck them.
00:09:38
Speaker
And it's really annoying and disconcerting when that's just not the case.
00:09:41
Speaker
Women, even though FDS women, we don't like to do the pursuing because we shouldn't.
00:09:46
Speaker
You know, women also give off tells.
00:09:48
Speaker
Like unconscious, like body language is also a thing that you can read if somebody is into you or if they want to talk to you or if they want to be around you.
00:09:55
Speaker
That's what it's also possible to read.
00:09:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think that the biggest thing is not to push.
00:09:59
Speaker
So the idea is like invite her to want to pursue a relationship with her, but don't be that like pushy weirdo.
00:10:06
Speaker
I think that's a huge difference in how you approach the situation.
00:10:10
Speaker
That's going to determine, well, it might not be the singular factor, but it's going to be the determine whether or not you come across like a disgusting scrote that we're going to roast on.
00:10:19
Speaker
FTS.
00:10:20
Speaker
And if you're a guy who has interest in a woman and just wants to let her know that like, you'd like to pursue something romantic further, because there's nothing, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
00:10:29
Speaker
And I don't think there's even wrong with like, keeping in touch with someone you maybe hit it off with.
00:10:34
Speaker
And if the timing isn't right, like respectful courtship is acceptable.
00:10:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:40
Speaker
But don't, you know, don't be a creep.
00:10:41
Speaker
Like, I don't know else to say this, you know?
00:10:43
Speaker
And don't be offended if she says no or is, like, weirded out or whatever, because that's another thing as well when, you know, when you think a guy's your friend, he asks you out, and you say no, and he just goes completely nuclear and then just turns into a demon scrote.
00:10:56
Speaker
That's another thing as well.
00:10:57
Speaker
It's very important to handle rejection with maturity.
00:11:00
Speaker
And if she says no, don't be a dick.
00:11:03
Speaker
You know, don't be whiny.
00:11:04
Speaker
Don't try to emotionally manipulate.
00:11:06
Speaker
Don't, like, even just, like, a huffy kind of, like...
00:11:10
Speaker
Like, okay, like stuff like that.
00:11:12
Speaker
Like, oh, you always go for the always date the assholes, not me.
00:11:16
Speaker
Yeah, bad boys, you know.
00:11:17
Speaker
And at that point, too, I would just bow out gracefully because if your feelings are like hurt to the point where you can't be friends with her anymore, that's that's it's better for you to not be friends with her than to try to like do this pseudo friendship.
00:11:29
Speaker
I'm going to say something that is, you know, because a lot of women often say, you know, after I turned my friend down, he didn't want to be friends with me anymore.
00:11:36
Speaker
I actually think it's perfectly valid if he's been turned down and he can't, you know, manage that or he needs to process that.
00:11:42
Speaker
I think it's fair if he doesn't want to continue the friendship anymore.
00:11:46
Speaker
I know it doesn't make the woman feel great because it's like, well, you were only around me for one thing, but it's better he does that than for you to, you know, than for him to be bitter or for there to be resentment or, because that's just going to be a bigger headache than if he just goes his own way.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, like just rip the bandaid off.
Handling Romantic Intentions in Friendships
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, don't let it fester.
00:12:02
Speaker
Because if, if, if, if in a, in a different alternate universe, I asked the guy out and he said, no, I probably wouldn't want to be his friend either.
00:12:09
Speaker
I would just go away.
00:12:12
Speaker
to be honest.
00:12:12
Speaker
Yeah, so be aware going into it that the risk of ruining the friendship is real.
00:12:18
Speaker
That could happen.
00:12:19
Speaker
And then again, it's up to you to decide if you're willing to take that risk.
00:12:23
Speaker
If you're willing to take the risk.
00:12:23
Speaker
And to be fair, I've actually, because I remember I was really into a guy, he was into me, and it was sort of like an awkward, I like you, you like me, where do we go?
00:12:31
Speaker
But I chose not to pursue a relationship because I knew that it would have an end date and I valued the friendship more.
00:12:37
Speaker
So you have to make that choice.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, be aware that, like, if your life circumstances, like, one of you is about to move.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah, that was it.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:44
Speaker
So be aware that if you're, if you are in a situation where you know one of your life situations might change, don't, like, try to do a last minute.
00:12:52
Speaker
I object.
00:12:53
Speaker
You know, there's a scene in movies where, like, one was about to get... This ain't the movies.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:59
Speaker
This is in the movies.
00:13:00
Speaker
Like, don't wait for like a romantic last minute gesture where you show up at her wedding and being like, I object!
00:13:05
Speaker
Running beside the train.
00:13:08
Speaker
Like running beside the train that's going off like, I love you!
00:13:13
Speaker
Chasing the car.
00:13:15
Speaker
Chasing the car in the rain.
00:13:18
Speaker
Everyone's going to think you're insane.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, don't show up at the airport running down the tarmac as she's about to fly off to another city, you know?
00:13:26
Speaker
So, okay, so the other thing, too, is maybe check the temperature of where she's at emotionally.
00:13:30
Speaker
Because this last line that he put forth was, would I be preying on her in some scrotie sense of vulnerability?
00:13:36
Speaker
Like, is she an emotional wreck after the end of this relationship?
00:13:41
Speaker
And the question to me is, like, for your sake, too, if you're actually really interested in her, you don't necessarily want to be the rebound.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
Give her time to recover.
00:13:50
Speaker
Because generally the guys who like that situation are the guys who are just for the sex.
00:13:54
Speaker
Don't be the pussy scavenger.
00:13:56
Speaker
Oh, God.
00:13:56
Speaker
Don't be a pussy scavenger.
00:14:01
Speaker
don't be a pussy scavenger they're just the worst we need still a full episode on that like scavengers and their varieties yeah i mentioned it some other time on like uh i think in the discord and then we talked about it again on one of our recent bonus contents i think the one about the kangaroo i love that phrase yeah
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah, pussy scavengers.
00:14:24
Speaker
But no, pussy scavengers are a real thing.
00:14:26
Speaker
They're guys that wait till women are in emotionally vulnerable situations or they try to get their friends rebounds and stuff like that.
00:14:33
Speaker
They're just the worst type of guys.
00:14:35
Speaker
They're like pussy vultures.
00:14:38
Speaker
That's what I mean by, like, guys who wait in the wings, circling dead bodies and shit.
00:14:42
Speaker
It is predatory because it's the same way that, like, a lion, for example, would wait until the gazelle has a limp.
00:14:48
Speaker
Is vulnerable.
00:14:49
Speaker
You know how, like, alligators, for example, they'll, like, wait under the cover of water, wait for, like, some zebras to, like, walk in, and there's, like, a group of them that can just, like, like, kind of go for you kind of thing.
00:14:59
Speaker
Like, don't fucking act like a literal predator from nature, right?
00:15:03
Speaker
Like...
00:15:04
Speaker
be upfront about it.
00:15:06
Speaker
Those are the men we resent, especially the guys that are just, they're waiting for the opportunity to stick it in.
00:15:10
Speaker
So like, don't lead with anything sexual.
00:15:12
Speaker
Let me put it that way.
00:15:13
Speaker
Like, especially if she's emotionally devastated over her last relationship or whatever, and you start trying to like, you know, offer her dick.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:21
Speaker
That's gross.
00:15:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:21
Speaker
It's like buy her a gift, offer her to take her on a date, do something fucking nice, do the nice thing.
00:15:27
Speaker
And then like, don't expect anything in return and like, wait a bit.
00:15:30
Speaker
Yeah, wait a bit.
00:15:30
Speaker
And then it's fine to like, yeah, see if you develop a rapport, right?
00:15:34
Speaker
Like the worst thing about like the red pill and everything is because they're all they're all trying to do like the hard clothes and the hard sale all the time.
00:15:41
Speaker
Overcome her last minute resistance.
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:15:44
Speaker
So I feel like if you, again, invite her to the relationship and eventually, yes, if you're in a relationship, you want it to be sexual.
00:15:50
Speaker
But the idea is to like.
00:15:51
Speaker
start to talk to her like a human being and then see if she pushes that conversation there, right?
00:15:57
Speaker
It should naturally go.
00:15:58
Speaker
When you're dating someone, if you go on a date, it's more than likely that that person, if they're interested in that, it should be like any other date, like the conversation should just flow.
00:16:07
Speaker
And if it's not flowing and you're forcing it, then you're going to come across like a scrote.
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, so ask her about her day.
00:16:14
Speaker
Show interest in her life.
00:16:16
Speaker
Really basic social skills that, like, again, some men actually can do these things really well.
00:16:23
Speaker
And they get laid all the time.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, and they get laid all the time.
00:16:26
Speaker
So that's the sort of man you want to be like.
00:16:28
Speaker
That's the thing about the red pill that's so crazy to me.
00:16:30
Speaker
I'm like, the guys who they think are beta, there's so many guys who I know got mad pussy in high school and college who the red pill would consider beta.
00:16:39
Speaker
I think they just didn't know because those guys are like mad quiet about it.
00:16:42
Speaker
They weren't the type of guy that would brag to all their friends about their sexual exploits every weekend.
00:16:46
Speaker
But like, they got fucked a lot.
00:16:48
Speaker
And part of it is because they are discreet.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:50
Speaker
They don't kiss and tell.
00:16:51
Speaker
Right.
00:16:52
Speaker
And the only reason I would even know is because like some of the women that they mess with, like put two and two together.
00:16:57
Speaker
Right.
00:16:58
Speaker
Because like, otherwise they wouldn't have known about each other.
00:17:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:00
Speaker
When women compare notes and like get to, that's the thing.
00:17:03
Speaker
You don't want to be the guy that women all talk shit about.
Challenges in Platonic Friendships
00:17:06
Speaker
We promote this a lot with FDS is women comparing notes.
00:17:09
Speaker
And once you, as a man, get a reputation for being a scrote like that, that really, really diminishes your long-term prospects.
00:17:16
Speaker
So you want to get a good reputation with women like that.
00:17:19
Speaker
Okay.
00:17:19
Speaker
So again, be nice, like do nice things for women, treat women like people.
00:17:25
Speaker
It's not rocket science, right?
00:17:26
Speaker
But a lot of men can't execute that properly.
00:17:30
Speaker
They don't have that mentality of wanting to woo her as opposed to trying to like...
00:17:36
Speaker
bag her that's even the even the phrasing that is used in like pickup artistry communities like oh you know ask her to do this and this and then bag her like she's a fucking deer and he's like a hunter so to broaden out the question can men and women be friends just generally over to you what do you think
00:17:56
Speaker
I think men and women can be friends if one of you is not attracted to the other one at all.
00:18:03
Speaker
And in that case, one of you is more than likely gay or you're so disparate in type and attraction.
00:18:11
Speaker
levels that it would never conflict.
00:18:13
Speaker
So you'd have to be like 100% not each other's type and or one of you would have to be gay.
00:18:20
Speaker
That's the only time I really see genuine heterosexual relationships working because of the fact that, let's say you have to both maintain boundaries with each other, but also appropriate boundaries if the other person has a partner.
00:18:34
Speaker
And I've seen so many male-female friendships implode
00:18:38
Speaker
that are supposedly platonic when the other one gets a partner.
00:18:42
Speaker
Because that's when people's suppressed feelings start to come to the surface.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I've seen some real crazy shit go down in supposedly platonic friendships between males and females.
00:18:54
Speaker
Mmm, yeah, I've noticed that too.
00:18:56
Speaker
See, this is what I mean about, like, running down the aisle at the last minute.
00:18:59
Speaker
Like, I object.
00:19:00
Speaker
It's like, again, like, don't ruin another person's relationship.
00:19:03
Speaker
I agree.
00:19:04
Speaker
Like, most of my, in fact, all of my closest male friends are gay.
00:19:09
Speaker
If a guy's heterosexual, he's moved into acquaintance category because...
00:19:14
Speaker
You give them a demerit?
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, it gets demoted to, because I always know that there is, and you know, the acquaintances in my life, they've always made it known that there could be something more.
00:19:24
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:19:25
Speaker
So I, yeah, I fully agree with that.
00:19:28
Speaker
Like, they're all gay or just not into, like, sexuality in general.
00:19:32
Speaker
Like, asexual.
00:19:35
Speaker
And truthfully, I mean, it's very tough for men to be friends with women unless it's sexualized.
00:19:40
Speaker
And that's the complaint that we often see on FDS is that literally none of our friends have ever turned out to be men who just generally wanted to be friends with us.
00:19:49
Speaker
It was always sexual.
00:19:50
Speaker
And I think that's more, it seems like that's more often the case than the reverse, because if women like a guy, it's more likely that men are going to explore that sexual relationship if she offers it.
00:20:03
Speaker
Because men have fewer options, yeah, exactly.
00:20:06
Speaker
Generally.
00:20:06
Speaker
Let's say it's like a woman and she's friends with a man she's pining after.
00:20:09
Speaker
He's probably going to immediately exploit that situation sexually and dead the friendship versus the other way where women are more likely to want to maintain the friendship first and then it doesn't go sexual unless the woman actually allows it.
00:20:22
Speaker
So it's just really hard to imagine a scenario where you can maintain that situation long term.
00:20:28
Speaker
And I think it comes back to what Rose said several months ago about when we're talking about communication between men and women and what Rose said about men and women speaking different languages.
00:20:38
Speaker
To women, platonic means that there's no sexual intention, attraction or whatever.
00:20:43
Speaker
But to men, and I've seen them discussing this on things like Reddit or Twitter or any social media space, they see it as, well, I see her as a friend, but if she offers it, I'd take it.
00:20:54
Speaker
To me, that's not... If you would have any sexual or romantic inclination towards somebody, it's not a platonic relationship.
00:21:02
Speaker
Okay, see, I... Okay, again, I don't mean to be, like, devil's advocate here, but I am of the view that, like, just because a man wants to fuck me or is, like, romantically attracted to me, I don't see that as, like, a barrier to us being friends.
00:21:17
Speaker
The key is, as the woman, for me personally, is, like, yeah, I'll always keep him at arm's distance.
00:21:22
Speaker
I'd probably still call them a friend.
00:21:23
Speaker
Like, I'd still hang out with them and do stuff, but, like, I'd never... They're sort of mentally always in the acquaintance category, if that makes sense.
00:21:30
Speaker
Or, like...
00:21:32
Speaker
manual labor category or something like that.
00:21:34
Speaker
Manual labor.
00:21:37
Speaker
Like chef.
00:21:38
Speaker
Here's the thing.
00:21:39
Speaker
This might not be what the male subscriber who submitted this question, this is probably not what he wants to hear, but for me personally, my view is that as long as a man is adding value to my life, even if I'm not like romantically or sexually attracted to him, sometimes they'll just like, yeah, I'll get help moving because in my city, it's freaking expensive and people are constantly getting renovicted.
00:21:59
Speaker
I have to move pretty much like every year.
00:22:01
Speaker
And so it's really convenient to have someone in my life who will help me move.
00:22:04
Speaker
Or, you know, various other like
00:22:06
Speaker
just small things.
00:22:07
Speaker
If I want to delegate undesirable tasks and I don't, I feel uncomfortable, like asking women to do some of these things.
00:22:14
Speaker
Like I wouldn't want to like exploit another woman's labor, but I am fine with exploiting a man's labor.
00:22:19
Speaker
So yeah, just because a man wants to fuck me, I don't see that as a reason not to be friends, but like, yeah, be aware that some simps are so toxic that it's better to just like cut them off.
00:22:28
Speaker
If he's like being sexually predatory in any way, some will just like keep, they'll just like pine from afar and
00:22:36
Speaker
that's fine to me like I'll keep them around but again that's probably not what the male subscriber wants to hear but again like that's why you as men you're allowed to be like oh I don't want to be in this situation and so and to end the friendship like you're within your rights to do that um but some men don't do that so and I'm fine with that it's just like the problem with
00:22:56
Speaker
heterosexual friendships is like sometimes they're friends for nondescript reasons and it's not always clear right because like with female friendships we tend to have things that we're genuinely bonding over right even if it's like something we mutually love something we both like to do or a mutual distaste for something even but with male and female friendships we're all just genuinely like her as a person but if a man's crushing on me and I'm not interested in him I'm always going to keep him at an arm's length
00:23:21
Speaker
But like male-female friendships, like it has to be centered around usually something external, like for it to stay platonic.
00:23:29
Speaker
Because I'm thinking if like, if you like each other, you have to be sexually repulsed by each other on some level for it to work.
00:23:36
Speaker
And that's...
00:23:37
Speaker
So because there's some women, they're like, they have interests that might be more male dominated.
00:23:41
Speaker
So then like, they don't really have a choice but to make friends with males.
00:23:44
Speaker
Let's say you're like a gamer or whatever.
00:23:45
Speaker
And then like the vast majority of people you encounter are gamers or you're in the cosplay or something.
00:23:49
Speaker
Although cosplay is pretty co-ed now, but...
00:23:52
Speaker
Early on, I think it was a lot of men, right?
00:23:54
Speaker
So Dungeons and Dragons, all that shit.
00:23:57
Speaker
So that's pretty male dominated.
00:24:00
Speaker
A lot of sports, for example.
00:24:02
Speaker
Sports, right.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, sports.
00:24:03
Speaker
So I'm also a sports fan.
00:24:04
Speaker
So that's the other thing too, where when it comes to talking about sports, even on Twitter, the vast majority of the time I'm talking to men, I just have an interest where the vast majority of men who are in, people who are into it are men.
00:24:14
Speaker
So in that case, like if you have a focused friendship on something specific and
00:24:19
Speaker
And you don't really expand it out beyond that.
00:24:22
Speaker
I think you can be friends, but you have to put boundaries around that, right?
00:24:25
Speaker
It's not like I'm hanging out telling him my deepest, darkest secrets about whatever, how I feel about life.
00:24:30
Speaker
We're friends in that like, oh, this is the dude I can hit up and we can drag each other over our respective basketball teams, right?
00:24:37
Speaker
I think it's helpful to think of friendships both for men and women in terms of circles.
00:24:41
Speaker
There's like the inner circle.
00:24:43
Speaker
We even have this with like FDS, I guess, like the mods.
00:24:45
Speaker
We're like the inner circle.
00:24:46
Speaker
We know...
00:24:47
Speaker
We know all the secrets.
00:24:48
Speaker
We know, you know, we, we dish with each other.
00:24:51
Speaker
We know where the bodies are buried.
00:24:54
Speaker
Um, and yeah, and then there's like the outer circle, like more and more kind of thing.
00:24:57
Speaker
And then like, yeah, same thing with my friends.
00:24:59
Speaker
Like I have like maybe two, three, I have like maybe two, three friends that like, yeah, if I, if I needed to bury a body or whatever, they're the girls I'm going to call kind of thing.
00:25:07
Speaker
Right.
00:25:07
Speaker
And
Maintaining Boundaries in Male Friendships
00:25:08
Speaker
those are always girls.
00:25:08
Speaker
I'd never, I don't think other than even though I own boyfriend, I wouldn't put in that inner circle, to be honest, it's always women and my, and my sister.
00:25:16
Speaker
So my views on this are, can men and women be friends?
00:25:19
Speaker
Yes, in the loose sense of the term, I guess.
00:25:22
Speaker
But I believe that women need to come to accept the fact that nine times out of ten, your male friend will see you as either a sexual or romantic opportunity.
00:25:34
Speaker
And you have to decide how you feel about that.
00:25:36
Speaker
If you're like Lilith and you're willing to go with the flow and rinse them, that's up to you.
00:25:40
Speaker
But if you will feel somehow... If you don't want to do all that work...
00:25:45
Speaker
It is emotional labor, honestly, I will say it is.
00:25:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:48
Speaker
And some women just, that's not worth it for them.
00:25:50
Speaker
And that's totally fine too.
00:25:52
Speaker
And it's not even, you know, just about it not being worth it.
00:25:55
Speaker
But if you'd feel hurt that your male friend was secretly pining after you after, you know, like a years long friendship, then maybe you need to, I guess...
00:26:04
Speaker
rethink how like close you can get with men.
00:26:07
Speaker
I'm not saying you can't be friendly with them, but it might just be that you keep them at a certain, you know, arm's length or just downgrade them to friendly acquaintance like I do.
00:26:17
Speaker
That's a really important distinction between friends and friendly.
00:26:22
Speaker
You know, it's almost weird in the English language how it's like the same word, but they have so different meanings.
00:26:26
Speaker
Like friendly, you could be friendly to a complete stranger.
00:26:30
Speaker
But they're not your friend.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, but they're not your friend.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:33
Speaker
That's what I mean about keeping men at arm's distance.
00:26:36
Speaker
Like, you know, they won't be in my inner circle, but I'll still be nice to them, you know?
00:26:41
Speaker
Yeah, you'll still be nice.
00:26:42
Speaker
And I also, this is going to be quite, you know, negative, but here at FDS, if we accept the fact that men are generally raised to be low value as partners romantically, then are the stats any different if you're looking for a male friend?
00:26:59
Speaker
I personally don't think it is.
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:27:02
Speaker
Like a truly, truly, truly high value male friend, I think is almost as rare or as unique as a truly high value male romantic partner.
00:27:12
Speaker
Which is why it's odd to me when women who break up with men who treated them like shit are like, we can just be friends.
00:27:18
Speaker
It's like, why would you want to be friends with somebody who treated you badly?
00:27:22
Speaker
That's not the basis of any good friendship.
00:27:24
Speaker
Okay, that brings up an important point, because I would never be friends with an ex.
00:27:28
Speaker
I think we've answered this question before.
00:27:29
Speaker
Was that in one of our first episodes?
00:27:31
Speaker
Like, men and women can be friends with an ex?
00:27:33
Speaker
No.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah, I've tried it.
00:27:35
Speaker
It doesn't work.
00:27:37
Speaker
It never works.
00:27:38
Speaker
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00:27:42
Speaker
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00:27:48
Speaker
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00:27:51
Speaker
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00:27:57
Speaker
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00:28:09
Speaker
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00:28:15
Speaker
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00:28:22
Speaker
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00:28:35
Speaker
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00:28:40
Speaker
Thanks and back to the show.
00:28:42
Speaker
What I think too about...
00:28:44
Speaker
Finding a guy who's high value, who's just a friend.
00:28:47
Speaker
And I think a high value man can maintain boundaries with women, which is actually a hallmark of high value men is that they're able to maintain boundaries with women in different social situations.
00:28:58
Speaker
The good news is like, let's say he just happens not being attracted to you.
00:29:02
Speaker
The benefit of maybe being friends with him is that he might have other high value friends that are.
00:29:06
Speaker
So I'm kind of an advocate for having, you can't have platonic relationships with men if you all are both good at maintaining your boundaries and he's truly high value.
00:29:16
Speaker
If he's a pussy scavenging scrote, then like is not, most of his friends are probably somewhere on that spectrum.
00:29:22
Speaker
So then there's just zero benefit to staying friends with him.
00:29:26
Speaker
a man like that because as soon as you're vulnerable, he's going to try to have sex with you and all of his friends are probably shit.
00:29:31
Speaker
But if you find a guy who's mature enough and can maintain boundaries, then more than likely he has a friend group there and then you can be mutual friend groups.
00:29:41
Speaker
Maybe you have some cute girlfriends who are high value, et cetera, that you guys can hook each other up with.
00:29:46
Speaker
So I'm not anti-male and female friendships or think it can't work, but it can really only work with high value men.
00:29:53
Speaker
True.
00:29:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's the other thing.
00:29:55
Speaker
It's like, I would never be like, with simps, I'll keep them at like the mid to outer circle.
00:30:02
Speaker
Whereas like actual high value men where maybe I'm just not physically attracted to him, or he's just not physically attracted to me.
00:30:07
Speaker
And that's why it's never moved past friendship.
00:30:10
Speaker
Maybe they'll be in like a mid to, you know, closer to the middle type circle.
00:30:14
Speaker
But you
00:30:14
Speaker
You know, it can still be worthwhile for like a networking or like even just, you know, just having high value people in your connections and so on can be beneficial in the long run.
00:30:25
Speaker
So that's another scenario in which if someone's like valuable to you professionally.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:30:31
Speaker
That's actually another thing where I probably would want to keep it at a friendship and not go romantic because I can say, you know, if you work in the same industry or something, you don't want to get you don't want to get messy.
00:30:42
Speaker
Right.
00:30:43
Speaker
So, yeah, that's another situation where it can be worth having male friends if like they're well connected and you want those connections, but you don't want to muddy the waters with dating them.
00:30:54
Speaker
Like, even if you're not working for the same company, that's another thing is like, not only will I avoid dating at work, I also generally avoid dating within my industry.
00:31:01
Speaker
I made an exception for my current boyfriend, but generally, like most of the time I do avoid that because you never know, like you could end up working for the same company at some point in the future.
00:31:10
Speaker
If the relationship goes bad, if he's really like the vindictive type, he could try to like ruin your reputation, make it hard for you to get hired at another company and so on.
00:31:19
Speaker
So
00:31:19
Speaker
That's another thing, again, speaking to the female audience, that's another thing to be careful about.
00:31:24
Speaker
I found as well that people like when, because I worked for an organization where there are a lot of couples and people just gossip.
00:31:31
Speaker
And especially if you're a woman, you get like the whole, oh, she only got that job because of who she's married to or who she's sleeping with.
00:31:38
Speaker
So it's just better not to mix your relationship with your professional life for that reason.
00:31:42
Speaker
Because unfortunately, women get judged way more harshly for dating somebody in the company than men do.
00:31:47
Speaker
Like men don't get judged at all for doing that.
00:31:49
Speaker
There's a term that's been developed for like that, which is called a work husband or a work wife.
00:31:54
Speaker
And I'm always wary of, I'm always wary of the implications of that because yes, there's been men that I've had like a really good camaraderie with at work and I don't think it would go beyond that.
00:32:05
Speaker
But then there's other times where I've seen other camaraderies where it's awkward for everybody because it's like, damn, just fuck already.
00:32:11
Speaker
Like
00:32:12
Speaker
You might be fucking at work.
00:32:14
Speaker
And they might be like, and even if they have significant others or spouses.
00:32:17
Speaker
Or they think they're Pam and Jim from the office.
00:32:19
Speaker
And it's like for everyone else involved, it's like, God, just like get it over with.
00:32:22
Speaker
Stop being awkward in front of me.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:25
Speaker
It's really, it becomes like really awkward.
00:32:27
Speaker
And then you have to deal with if, if you know their significant other, like if you are the significant other of a person who has a work husband or work wife, like.
00:32:34
Speaker
That sucks.
00:32:35
Speaker
How do you feel?
00:32:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:37
Speaker
And so you might make that person, you might make your actual significant other feel like irrationally jealous.
00:32:41
Speaker
Or I've seen this also happen where a person attempts to put boundaries in place because they feel like the relationship has gotten a little bit more than platonic work friends.
00:32:50
Speaker
And then the other person freaks out.
00:32:53
Speaker
Because that's just always like the caveat to me because, again, I've seen both work friendships and like outside work friendships where one of them gets a significant other and the other one goes nuclear.
00:33:04
Speaker
Even though they swear up and down to Splatonic, they're not attracted to them like that.
00:33:08
Speaker
And it might be that they're not actually attracted to them like that, but the prospect of not having their undivided attention.
00:33:13
Speaker
Or they feel possessive even if there's nothing going on.
00:33:16
Speaker
Exactly.
00:33:17
Speaker
Exactly.
00:33:17
Speaker
They feel massively possessive and have this like antagonistic relationship towards the other person in their life.
00:33:23
Speaker
And this is like kind of happened to me where I was dating a guy who had a girl he'd known forever.
00:33:29
Speaker
And I remember like one time we were in bed together and she called at like three in the morning crying because her boyfriend was treating her like shit.
00:33:35
Speaker
And I'm like, why the fuck is she calling you?
00:33:37
Speaker
And he's like, I mean, sometimes I listen to her because she has like man problems.
00:33:40
Speaker
That's so weird.
00:33:41
Speaker
No.
00:33:42
Speaker
Right.
00:33:42
Speaker
That's a huge boundary violation in my opinion.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:45
Speaker
Three in the morning?
00:33:46
Speaker
Three in the morning, like late at night.
00:33:48
Speaker
And like, it was generally that because he had the phone on speaker.
00:33:50
Speaker
So I'm listening to this conversation go down.
00:33:52
Speaker
This girl's like crying about her boyfriend and shit.
00:33:54
Speaker
I'm like, wow.
00:33:54
Speaker
So she's just going to call like in the middle of the night.
00:33:57
Speaker
Doesn't know what's going on with you.
00:33:58
Speaker
And then I looked at him like, yeah, no, this isn't fine.
00:34:01
Speaker
Right.
00:34:02
Speaker
And he's like, yeah, I've known her forever.
00:34:03
Speaker
So it's just a little bit hard.
00:34:05
Speaker
But yeah, she's always having man problems.
00:34:06
Speaker
So sometimes I just help her out.
00:34:07
Speaker
And I'm like, OK, like, that's nice of you.
00:34:09
Speaker
But like, fuck her.
00:34:11
Speaker
No, if my boyfriend did that, I would straight up be like, you have to set boundaries with this woman.
00:34:15
Speaker
First, actually, no, no, no.
00:34:18
Speaker
I would probably go on a snooping or fact-finding mission to see if there's actually something going on between my boyfriend and her.
00:34:23
Speaker
If there is, then I'd dump him.
00:34:25
Speaker
If there isn't, then I'd be like, you have to set boundaries with this woman.
00:34:29
Speaker
And then if he didn't, then I'd break up with him.
00:34:32
Speaker
That would be how I would react in that situation.
00:34:34
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:35
Speaker
If he failed to set boundaries, that's a red flag.
00:34:38
Speaker
I think in this case, you know, we had just started dating, but it was like, yeah, you got some residual homegirls who, for whatever reason, think you're their emotional dumping ground and they need to understand it.
00:34:49
Speaker
Like they need to figure out their man problems by themselves.
00:34:51
Speaker
Like call one of your girlfriends, even to speaking, if the woman in that situation was like my friend, I'd be like, girl, like call one of your female friends.
00:34:58
Speaker
Like what, why is the only person that she has to call her male coworker?
00:35:02
Speaker
Like, obviously there's something going on, something going on.
00:35:05
Speaker
I don't know.
00:35:06
Speaker
In this case, they weren't coworkers.
00:35:07
Speaker
They'd known each other for, they'd known each other for years.
00:35:09
Speaker
So this is like, they'd known each other from like grade school.
00:35:11
Speaker
And he's just the type of guy that would help people out.
00:35:13
Speaker
So I think, again, it's one of those things where I think he was just like a
00:35:17
Speaker
He thinks he's a good guy.
00:35:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:18
Speaker
Generally good guy.
00:35:19
Speaker
And like help people out who asked.
00:35:22
Speaker
Because it actually wasn't just that woman.
00:35:23
Speaker
It was like other... She was the most disrespectful at that middle of the night call.
00:35:27
Speaker
But there's other times where it was like... Like, can you not wait until morning?
00:35:30
Speaker
Jeez.
00:35:31
Speaker
And he's the type of guy to go like help his homies to like, you know, fix a flat or hope, you know, help his friend's mom move, etc.
00:35:37
Speaker
So he's just that type of guy.
00:35:38
Speaker
Like the...
00:35:39
Speaker
neighborhood like handyman almost the neighborhood friendly man yeah yeah like he's just a genuinely good dude but like yeah i had to explain to him about certain boundaries that weren't okay and then he seemed to understand and that was the end of it that's fair yeah i mean okay i'm still reeling from that story because that's i'm sorry that's like crazy to me but no i agree and i think it was like well that's the problem with male and female friendships because again if he gets another girlfriend like there's zero women who are going to be okay with that
00:36:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:36:08
Speaker
So to be honest, though, me and my current boyfriend had like, okay, we weren't that bad.
00:36:14
Speaker
But like, we did have sort of like, I think like the work husband, work wife thing, as long as you have strong boundaries in place, and are not like, yeah, on personal time, that kind of stuff, and like, not actually...
00:36:25
Speaker
I don't know.
00:36:25
Speaker
There's a certain, such a certain thing is like, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:36:29
Speaker
Emotional cheating, I guess, as long as you're avoiding kind of emotional cheating.
00:36:33
Speaker
So a work husband or a work wife, if one of you are currently in a relationship, obviously don't disrespect your partner, but I probably would still keep them in my orbit, at least in case, you know, if we, yeah, if one of us do break up with our partner and like, sometimes they can be a great future partner if the circumstances change kind of thing.
00:36:51
Speaker
But again, it's important to keep it professional and not
00:36:54
Speaker
So that's what social media has kind of become for, because I got rid of all my social media, just like wanting to do a cleanse and purge of just people.
00:37:04
Speaker
There's just too many peripheral people that I wanted to get rid of, but not make it weird.
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:10
Speaker
Because the thing when you start muting people or like unfriending certain people, like then people take it personally.
00:37:15
Speaker
I'm like in the off chance I run into this person, I don't want them to feel like personally offended.
00:37:18
Speaker
I just deleted all my shit.
00:37:20
Speaker
I don't want to.
00:37:21
Speaker
I don't want to be awkward.
00:37:21
Speaker
So I'm just going to delete my entire online digital presence.
00:37:25
Speaker
I mean, yeah.
00:37:25
Speaker
And also, I just don't like being that searchable, but that's fair.
00:37:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:29
Speaker
I respect my own privacy, but basically it did cut off some of my like potentials and like old school sneaky links, right?
00:37:36
Speaker
Because a lot of those were, yeah, they were just men I'd become Facebook friends with or Instagram friends with over the years who it's like, oh, we never quite hooked up or we never quite got together either their relationship or I was in a relationship or something.
00:37:49
Speaker
Something was going on where it never really happened.
00:37:51
Speaker
And so social media to me has almost been...
00:37:53
Speaker
kind of place like it's either to keep up with family or old potential romantic interests if you want them to find you.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:02
Speaker
I mean, I have social media, but I'm just, like, not super active on it.
00:38:05
Speaker
So, again, it's like I like to have that option open, but not, like, super actively use social media, you know?
00:38:12
Speaker
Okay, so how can we vet for a male friend if we decide that we want to associate with the opposite sex in that way?
00:38:22
Speaker
So, like, first and foremost, I would strongly recommend seeking out and prioritizing female friendships.
00:38:29
Speaker
Hmm.
00:38:30
Speaker
yeah if you can find based women to be friends with like your life will just automatically level up i swear like women um especially based women they understand just how to be i guess a good friend and um even deeper than friends sometimes like a lot of my even my work colleagues because i work for an all-female team but on the podcast
00:38:52
Speaker
and in my personal life, professional life as well, it's so much easier to get a sense of almost sisterhood that you just can never get with men.
00:38:59
Speaker
Even if the guy is really high value, a friendship with a high value man will never be as good as a friendship with a high value woman.
00:39:06
Speaker
And I will die on this hill.
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:39:08
Speaker
I will absolutely die on that hill.
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:39:12
Speaker
I think I value female friendships a lot more than male friendships.
00:39:15
Speaker
Again, like male and female friendships have a different purpose in my life.
00:39:19
Speaker
For women, it's about genuine mutual connection and bonding and like improving my quality of life.
00:39:24
Speaker
Men also, they should exist to improve my quality of life.
00:39:27
Speaker
I'm a lot more generous with women.
00:39:29
Speaker
I'm a lot more, I feel more comfortable being vulnerable with women.
00:39:33
Speaker
I feel like I can share more with women.
00:39:34
Speaker
I feel like I have more in common with women.
00:39:35
Speaker
I just prefer what I just love women.
00:39:37
Speaker
And with men, I'm just sort of sus about them.
00:39:40
Speaker
I'm just sort of skeptical of them.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:42
Speaker
I feel like you always have to be on your guard with men.
00:39:44
Speaker
And this is why I also feel really sad when other women say, like, I just don't get on with other women.
00:39:49
Speaker
Because honestly, friendships with other women is just so much better.
00:39:54
Speaker
And I'm obviously good, like, non-toxic, because I appreciate there are some women out there that can also be very toxic.
00:40:01
Speaker
But if you find base, like, high-value crew of women, it is just so, so good.
00:40:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:06
Speaker
I find it so funny this question started from a male subscriber and we're talking about it and being like, friendships with women are way better than... I'm just being honest.
00:40:14
Speaker
I'm just being honest.
00:40:15
Speaker
Yeah, to our male audience, it's possible, but here's all these ethical guidelines to our female audience...
00:40:22
Speaker
So prioritize relationships with other women always.
00:40:25
Speaker
And the man has to be high value and add to your life and not violate your boundaries.
00:40:29
Speaker
And even then, even if he's the greatest guy in the world, again, like even my own literal boyfriend is not in my inner circle.
00:40:36
Speaker
Even with my own boyfriend, I still have certain boundaries in place, you know?
00:40:40
Speaker
I think women too are more socialized to like emotionally give and even like physically live or socially give without expectation of return.
00:40:49
Speaker
Right.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yes.
00:40:50
Speaker
Or thinking it means something more than it does because I, again, I've had platonic male, I've had, hold on, go sit on a puppy, please.
00:40:59
Speaker
The only male friend in your relationship should be your dog.
00:41:02
Speaker
No, my dog's very conditional.
00:41:04
Speaker
Uh,
00:41:05
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:41:06
Speaker
No, but so one of the things like I, I like to just, you know, do really nice things for people in general.
00:41:13
Speaker
So I tried to bring a guy a birthday cake, right?
00:41:17
Speaker
Who I thought, and I've done this to multiple guys, both guys I was dating and then guys I was friendship.
00:41:22
Speaker
And like, it was weird, right?
00:41:23
Speaker
For them because it was like, well, why did you get me a cake?
00:41:25
Speaker
And I was like, because it's your birthday.
00:41:27
Speaker
And I thought it'd be a nice thing to do.
00:41:29
Speaker
And he thinks it means more than that.
00:41:30
Speaker
Either he thinks it means more than that or they're like, um...
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:34
Speaker
Or like, yeah, they start getting an ego about it because they think like, oh, she's really into me because I got him a cake.
00:41:40
Speaker
And I was like, no, I just, you know, why not?
00:41:42
Speaker
It's your birthday.
00:41:43
Speaker
I got you something nice.
00:41:43
Speaker
Or they're like immediately suspicious or something because they're not used to because male friendships, they don't do nice shit for each other.
00:41:51
Speaker
It's always like blown up in my face when I try to treat my male friends like my female friends.
00:41:56
Speaker
So I just vastly, vastly lowered the amount of effort I put into my male friendship.
00:42:01
Speaker
So like on their birthday, I might buy them a drink.
00:42:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:04
Speaker
Or go out for dinner or something as a group.
00:42:06
Speaker
With my female friendships, that's when you get the cake and like the whatever, the party favors and like the party games.
00:42:13
Speaker
Spend two weeks planning their birthday.
00:42:15
Speaker
That's like a surprise that you don't even tell them about, but you and your other friends get together and I don't know, go to Vegas.
00:42:20
Speaker
Exactly.
00:42:21
Speaker
That's what I mean about like, I put so much more effort into my female friendships than male friendships.
00:42:25
Speaker
I think with male friendships, the effort should go from man to woman.
00:42:29
Speaker
With female friendships, the effort is mutual.
00:42:32
Speaker
Men don't really invest in each other like that, I've learned, for the most part.
00:42:36
Speaker
Most of the time when you see guys do birthday things, it's like, oh, boys trip to some Vegas.
00:42:39
Speaker
It's something that makes them like, something that's like beneficial to all of them and sometimes even more beneficial for the party thrower because they're the ones like, oh, let's throw a bachelor party and go to the strip club.
00:42:48
Speaker
But it's really for them.
00:42:49
Speaker
Like men are more likely to do shit like that where they pressure their friends into doing things that are more like a little bit more selfish.
00:42:57
Speaker
But yeah, every time I've tried to just do what I thought was like a selfless friend thing,
00:43:01
Speaker
But for a man, it's like always become an issue.
00:43:05
Speaker
Like it's always made things weird.
00:43:06
Speaker
And I couldn't really explain it at the time.
00:43:08
Speaker
But again, I think it's either they read more into it and thought I was more into them than I actually was.
00:43:12
Speaker
And I was like, no, I just got you.
00:43:13
Speaker
Like, you know, got you something because it's your birthday.
00:43:15
Speaker
Wasn't like, I'm not trying to slob your knob now or whatever.
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:19
Speaker
you know, or, um, they felt obligated to like care more than they wanted to, because they're not used to people giving them nice things because men don't do that shit for each other.
00:43:27
Speaker
Right.
00:43:28
Speaker
So now they're like, well, I didn't get you anything.
00:43:30
Speaker
And I'm like, all right, then nevermind.
00:43:32
Speaker
You know?
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:32
Speaker
Like I expect my male friends to remember my birthday, but, and I might remember their birthday, but like, yeah, I won't get them like a gift or make them a cake.
00:43:40
Speaker
We'll like go out as a group to, I don't know, a restaurant or something like, or buy each other drinks, you know,
00:43:46
Speaker
It's more, I don't know, straight up, just ladies invest more in your female friendships than your male friendships.
00:43:53
Speaker
Yeah, you can invest more in your female friendships without it making it weird, but your male friendships, like, it just fucks it up for some reason.
00:44:00
Speaker
So back to vetting as well.
00:44:03
Speaker
Oh yeah, we got off track of it.
00:44:05
Speaker
If you are in the market for a male friend, he has to treat and speak of other women well, and this is absolutely non-negotiable.
00:44:12
Speaker
If, I don't care if he is funding your lifestyle, if he's bought your Ferrari, if there is any whiff of scrotie behaviour, you cut him off.
00:44:21
Speaker
Like, that is, if he's, you know...
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I'm gonna say on that.
00:44:25
Speaker
Like, he has to treat the women he's with and other women generally very, very well.
00:44:30
Speaker
Otherwise, he's low value.
00:44:32
Speaker
I want to say also, this is not, again, not related to vetting, but, like, understand for women, social contagion is a very real thing.
00:44:39
Speaker
It's important to surround yourself with high value people, men and women.
00:44:43
Speaker
And if you're around, like, a shitty man or woman, it's gonna affect you.
00:44:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:47
Speaker
Consciously or unconsciously in a way, like, it's hard to, it's almost hard to control, right?
00:44:52
Speaker
It's like,
00:44:53
Speaker
a sort of mental diet.
00:44:54
Speaker
You know how, like, you're affected by the food you eat?
00:44:56
Speaker
You're also kind of affected by, like, the media you consume, the people you spend time with, and so on.
00:45:00
Speaker
So
Social Dynamics & Media Influence on Friendships
00:45:01
Speaker
it's important to spend time with high-value men and women, and they'll influence you in a positive way.
00:45:05
Speaker
If a man is, like, is shitty to women or just has, it's just low vibrational, or just you don't vibe well, or he's just shitty, like, don't spend any time with them at all.
00:45:13
Speaker
Not even as, like, a manual labor person.
00:45:16
Speaker
Like, yes, even the manual labor guys have to be, like, actually decent people.
00:45:20
Speaker
Like... Yeah.
00:45:22
Speaker
Definitely.
00:45:22
Speaker
Also be aware of the relationship being non-reciprocal.
00:45:27
Speaker
So just because a man is not sexually interested in you, because I know this episode is focused heavily on sexual and romantic interests, but just because he isn't interested in you romantically or sexually, that doesn't mean he's not using you.
00:45:40
Speaker
Like...
00:45:40
Speaker
He could still be using you as a therapist, as an Uber driver, as a mommy no bang maid.
00:45:45
Speaker
Like, you need to make sure that if you are going to, you know, again, if we make the argument that generally interacting with men can bring diminishing returns in many cases for women, because men aren't really, you know, raised to be equitable partners, talk less of good friends, even to each other, then...
00:46:02
Speaker
You need to especially watch out for and avoid entering into a non-reciprocal friendship with a man because it's very easy to sleepwalk into doing that, especially if you think, oh, he's gay.
00:46:13
Speaker
Oh, he's not attracted to me.
00:46:15
Speaker
I'm not attracted to him.
00:46:16
Speaker
That doesn't mean that he's not using you.
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of men actually specifically keep around women.
00:46:22
Speaker
Here's the fucked up thing is like there are men out there who will keep around women that they're not attracted to at all, but will still have sex with them just so that they can have convenient pussy.
00:46:31
Speaker
Or if they won't even stoop to that level, they'll keep women around that they're not attracted to that they know where she's into him.
00:46:39
Speaker
And like, we'll use as free therapist as an ego boost as for whatever fucking purposes
00:46:44
Speaker
right because men are some men are just shitty like that and will just use you for whatever you can or whatever they can get from you so yeah make be aware of any relationship where he's not adding value to your life whether it's platonic or romantic relationship and i would also say as well brace yourself for him making a move when you're available as well like i still in my experience and the experience of my friends and
00:47:07
Speaker
countless women on the subreddit if a guy is your friend there is a high possibility that he sees you as a potential opportunity so brace yourself for that as well because a lot of them are feel very blindsided when it happens and it's about understanding that men don't process
00:47:25
Speaker
I guess, friendships the same way we do.
00:47:27
Speaker
They don't conceptualize it the same way we do.
00:47:29
Speaker
They see nothing wrong with, you know, seeing your friend as a sexual opportunity or as women don't always think the same way.
00:47:36
Speaker
So just prepare yourself for that.
00:47:38
Speaker
Understand, ladies, like, if you have a male friend, even if you're not attracted to him or even if you think he's not attracted to you, or, oh, he's not like that.
00:47:46
Speaker
No, he actually likes me.
00:47:48
Speaker
Oh, we're just friends.
00:47:49
Speaker
Like, no, even in that case.
00:47:51
Speaker
We've been friends for decades.
00:47:53
Speaker
Oh, I see him as a little brother.
00:47:55
Speaker
People underestimate how long men will wait for pussy.
00:47:58
Speaker
They underestimate how long men will wait.
00:48:03
Speaker
how long they'll scavenge a pussy.
00:48:04
Speaker
Like, they're literally, like, fucking, you know, vultures, like, circling the desert, looking for carcasses.
00:48:10
Speaker
Yeah, and that's why, I don't know, I'm not taken aback from men.
00:48:13
Speaker
Like, I just expect, like, that's just how men be, and I'm fine with that.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah, same, I just accept it.
00:48:18
Speaker
Yeah, like, so the women who are, like, taken aback, like, me?
00:48:22
Speaker
Like, I mean, sometimes...
00:48:27
Speaker
I mean, not going to lie, sometimes I will act like that to the man to put him on the back foot or to like, you know, to...
00:48:36
Speaker
Sometimes I do the whole routine where I act like an innocent flower.
00:48:39
Speaker
Like what?
00:48:39
Speaker
I had no idea.
00:48:41
Speaker
But for the women that actually actually believe that we're actually like, what?
00:48:49
Speaker
I had no idea.
00:48:53
Speaker
Some women, some women are so rich because I've seen multiple, like, okay.
00:48:57
Speaker
So another reason I got rid of my social media, like messy drama on Instagram is,
00:49:03
Speaker
and on Facebook because they'll be like all hugged up in pictures and be like, this is my best friend.
00:49:08
Speaker
And we've been friends for this long time.
00:49:10
Speaker
And he's like got his arms wrapped all the way around her.
00:49:13
Speaker
Like it looks really, really romantic around her waist or something like, yeah, this like warm, loving embrace.
00:49:19
Speaker
And I'm like, I'm saying, I'm like, okay, like y'all, y'all just trying to get everyone riled up in the comments and start shit with everyone else's significant others.
00:49:28
Speaker
So a lot of women do that and they're full of shit.
00:49:32
Speaker
Like,
00:49:34
Speaker
You know that man wants to hit, right?
00:49:36
Speaker
You just, you just like, you're just trying to be, right, exactly.
00:49:40
Speaker
No, and a lot of those women are so manipulative and this is why I can't be friends with some of them too.
00:49:45
Speaker
And like, not a knock on you, Lilith, but like the ones that try to like, thanks, like,
00:49:49
Speaker
No, no, no.
00:49:49
Speaker
But like, here's the difference.
00:49:50
Speaker
Here's the difference.
00:49:51
Speaker
Like there's women, because those women will try to do that with your man, right?
00:49:55
Speaker
And then they know in relation, are in relationships and then be like, oh, let's take a picture together for Instagram.
00:50:01
Speaker
And like has their hand like right above their stomach on their crotch and shit.
00:50:04
Speaker
Those women are not your friend.
00:50:06
Speaker
They're basically like the Shayna types.
00:50:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:08
Speaker
Like Shayna from...
00:50:09
Speaker
Like the ones that are your frenemies that are like pretending like I just have so many guy friends, but it's really like they're quote unquote friends, boyfriends that they're just like all over and pretending that like they don't know that these guys would fuck them if they could.
00:50:20
Speaker
Like, yeah, fuck those chicks.
00:50:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:22
Speaker
See, they're coming from a place of like pick me as them.
00:50:24
Speaker
I'm coming from a place of like men ain't shit and they exist to serve women.
00:50:27
Speaker
And I'm always going to put the woman first.
00:50:29
Speaker
Like I would never.
00:50:30
Speaker
Very different energy.
00:50:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:32
Speaker
Never mess with another woman's man.
00:50:34
Speaker
In fact, if a woman's man tried to mess with me, I would immediately snitch on him, always on the woman's side on every situation.
00:50:42
Speaker
That's just how I be.
00:50:43
Speaker
But again, not all women are female oriented like that.
00:50:46
Speaker
Yeah, I had to purge my feet of like, I don't know why so many women don't like me.
00:50:50
Speaker
And then here's a bunch of my platonic male friends that I'm practically slobbing down in these pictures.
00:50:55
Speaker
Oh.
00:50:56
Speaker
And there's lots of women that love doing that and then being like, I have all these male friends and I just don't get why women don't like me.
00:51:02
Speaker
Look at all the haters in my comments, right?
00:51:06
Speaker
It just got to the point where I was like, yeah, it's time to start forehead pushing these people out of my mental space.
00:51:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:14
Speaker
because that's what i meant i felt like half my social media was drama like it was like it was like uh political ranting and then the other half was like drama and i was like half anti-vaccine yeah the other half was like it was like why do all these women hate me oh my god yeah yeah and i was like i think i'm done like
00:51:38
Speaker
Or at least I'm going to restart my social media with a brand new group of people.
00:51:44
Speaker
No, go back to the olden days where you just met people in real life or just stayed in touch with people by texting or phone.
00:51:54
Speaker
I don't know.
00:51:54
Speaker
Because I feel like social media is mostly people I don't really care about much.
00:51:58
Speaker
But once you're in someone's DMs or messages, that's like...
00:52:03
Speaker
that means something different.
00:52:04
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:52:05
Speaker
I don't know.
00:52:06
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:52:06
Speaker
And men who had girlfriends and wives in my DMS too.
00:52:09
Speaker
That was the other thing that motivated me.
00:52:11
Speaker
I already have trust issues, but this is just, yeah, that's the thing.
00:52:14
Speaker
Like I expect that men will try to be shady and I'm just like, instead of being like angry or offended by that, I'm like, okay, I'm just going to fucking outsmart them.
00:52:22
Speaker
Or, you know, once you know how the system is played, you can start to play the game to your advantage.
00:52:28
Speaker
Okay.
00:52:28
Speaker
So that's why, again,
00:52:30
Speaker
Speaking to my female audience only, like, I don't think there's anything wrong with exploiting a man's, like, sex drive or horniness for you, as long as you keep him at an arm's length and only keep him around if he's adding value to your life.
00:52:43
Speaker
I don't see anything wrong with that.
00:52:45
Speaker
But yeah, not all women want to deal with that, though, and I respect that, too.
00:52:49
Speaker
He should also respect your relationship.
00:52:51
Speaker
I was talking about this with, like, one of my best friends, because she's got, like, probably, like, eight or nine orbiters, like, the fucking sun.
00:52:57
Speaker
And she was saying how she couldn't... She couldn't... I think she doesn't maximise it, though.
00:53:04
Speaker
Like, I was trying to tell her, like, your strategy, but she's slowly getting it.
00:53:07
Speaker
But, yeah.
00:53:08
Speaker
Anyway, she... She was, like...
00:53:12
Speaker
I can't go to my male friends for relationship advice because the pussy scavengers will deliberately poison her against her partner.
00:53:20
Speaker
Yep.
00:53:22
Speaker
Beware of some of your man's friends, too, because I've seen that, too, where sometimes they have hater-esque friends who are pussy scavengers.
00:53:29
Speaker
This is why you can't have pussy scavengers around, man.
00:53:31
Speaker
They're the worst type of guy.
00:53:35
Speaker
You know the movie Love Actually?
00:53:36
Speaker
You know the movie Love Actually?
00:53:38
Speaker
Have you seen that?
00:53:39
Speaker
I haven't seen it.
00:53:40
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:53:40
Speaker
It's got Keira Knightley, and I won't spoil it, but yeah, there's like Keira Knightley in Love Triangle where, yeah, she's married to a man who and his best friend is in love with her.
00:53:49
Speaker
And I won't spoil the ending.
00:53:51
Speaker
But yeah, like that pussy scavenger.
00:53:54
Speaker
The friend in that situation is a pussy scavenger, okay?
00:53:56
Speaker
Like Love Actually is a movie about a pussy scavenging love triangle.
00:54:01
Speaker
Boom, I said it.
00:54:02
Speaker
I love the movie, but that's what it's about.
00:54:03
Speaker
Like, you got to be careful of that kind of thing.
00:54:05
Speaker
And like, and also, again, if the guy is at high value, he probably has friends that are creeps too, right?
00:54:11
Speaker
Like there's, there's guys that are, they're pick me.
00:54:13
Speaker
It's like, they'll go behind their man, their friends back and try to get at you too.
00:54:18
Speaker
So that's why it's like, it's so important.
00:54:20
Speaker
Even if you have,
00:54:22
Speaker
If you have a boyfriend or you have platonic friends, like, you really got to vet for the people with poor boundaries who are there to start shit.
00:54:29
Speaker
And yeah, you just have to treat them on the same terms as a guy you're vetting, you know, for a relationship, have super strong boundaries.
00:54:35
Speaker
Don't be afraid to cut him off at the sign of, you know, red flags.
00:54:38
Speaker
Don't overshare.
00:54:40
Speaker
Don't overshare.
00:54:41
Speaker
It's the same principle if you're vetting for a relationship, in my view, because...
00:54:47
Speaker
Like limit how much information you give him.
00:54:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:49
Speaker
You don't lower your boundaries thinking, oh, he's just a friend.
00:54:52
Speaker
Like, it's fine.
00:54:53
Speaker
No.
00:54:54
Speaker
Keep that guard up at all times, sis.
00:54:55
Speaker
Because, you know, when we say that low value men shouldn't be rewarded with female company, we don't just mean in relationships.
00:55:01
Speaker
We mean generally in life as well.
00:55:03
Speaker
Like they shouldn't be rewarded with female friendships either.
00:55:06
Speaker
Or acquaintanceship.
00:55:08
Speaker
I think even an acquaintanceship like with a woman is a privilege.
00:55:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:12
Speaker
And to wrap it up with the question that we got at the beginning, can men and women be friends?
00:55:17
Speaker
Can I shoot my shot?
00:55:17
Speaker
That kind of thing.
00:55:18
Speaker
I would say, first and foremost, look at yourself as well and make sure that you're a high value person before shooting your shot.
00:55:24
Speaker
Have some self-awareness.
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah, read the room.
00:55:26
Speaker
But also in the meantime, you know, just as we tell women, level up before you pursue a relationship.
00:55:32
Speaker
I also strongly advise men to do that.
00:55:34
Speaker
You will increase the likelihood of
00:55:36
Speaker
of turning a friendship into a relationship.
00:55:39
Speaker
If you work on yourself and focus on becoming a high value man as well, be honest with yourself about your flaws.
00:55:45
Speaker
And what are the things about yourself that might not be attractive?
00:55:47
Speaker
Not, it's not just about looks like personality and like behavior and just like, you know, get some fucking hobbies and shit that isn't like gaming and porn, right?
00:55:54
Speaker
Like just don't be a scrote and you'll significantly increase your chances, both like having a quality friendship as well as like a possible relationship either way.
00:56:04
Speaker
And here endeth the lessons.
00:56:06
Speaker
Thank you, Savannah.
00:56:07
Speaker
That's our show.
00:56:08
Speaker
Check us out on Patreon for weekly bonus content.
00:56:13
Speaker
If you're a man listening to this, sign up for the Scrove Strike Back tier and submit some debate questions for Ro to destroy you over.
00:56:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really interested in doing that.
00:56:22
Speaker
Keeps me up, keeps me excited.
00:56:24
Speaker
Even if you're a male fan, just like for Ro's personal entertainment, like do us a solid.
00:56:30
Speaker
Give us something meaty to...
00:56:32
Speaker
Just throw some, offer up a male rose to scrot of a man you hate that you want us to drag.
00:56:37
Speaker
I don't know anything.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah, we'll do it.
00:56:39
Speaker
So yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
So I hope we answered the question appropriately for the guy, you know, I hope you got something out of it and enjoying our scrot strike back tier.
00:56:46
Speaker
But yeah, so check that out on Patreon, patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy, as well as our Twitter at femdatstrat and our Instagram at underscore the female dating strategy.
00:56:57
Speaker
And our website, which we're still working on.
00:57:01
Speaker
It's getting better.
00:57:02
Speaker
It's getting better.
00:57:03
Speaker
TBD.
00:57:03
Speaker
It's going to, you know, we're getting there.
00:57:05
Speaker
We might relaunch soon.
00:57:06
Speaker
So thefemaledatingstrategy.com.
00:57:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening, queens.
00:57:10
Speaker
And for all you scrotes out there, stop being pussy scavengers.
00:57:13
Speaker
Die mad.