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Episode 16 - CAN WE TRUST Content Creators?
1.3k Plays3 months ago
Content Creators have taken social media by storm, showing you all their "tips & tricks", advising you what to buy, and how to make things. THEIR GOAL: GET THE MOST EYEBALLS TO WATCH THEIR VIDEOS SO THEY EARN MORE MONEY in the form of ad revenue and corporate sponsorships. This begs the question of whether you can trust their advice. In this episode we take on this dicey topic, especially because Erik is a self-proclaimed CONTENT CREATOR. What do you think? Can you trust what they tell you? Our good friend Jen DiArenzo again joins us for this lively and compelling discussion.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:16
pjasper
Welcome one, welcome all, back to another episode of Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast that hopes to poke and prod at the sensitive to topics and the sore spots. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined by Eric Curtis,
00:00:30
shyeetrock
Yeah, you are.
00:00:37
pjasper
In the left, in the red corner, weighing in at 175 pounds. He's a lean, mean muscle machine. He's a full-time woodworker and a full-time content creator.
Jokes on Gender Norms
00:00:47
pjasper
In the blue corner. Were you in the blue corner or were you in the red corner?
00:00:50
Jen
He was red.
00:00:51
pjasper
Shit, okay. In the blue corner.
00:00:53
shyeetrock
don't Don't paint, don't paint me in that red circle, baby. Not right now.
00:00:56
pjasper
oh
00:00:56
shyeetrock
Not in, not in red America.
00:00:58
pjasper
Weighing in at, we don't talk about weight with women. We are gender-renzo creative.
00:01:07
Jen
Right.
00:01:07
pjasper
We've learned our, yeah, we don't, we don't do it. We don't do that.
00:01:10
shyeetrock
There's some topics that are off topic, even for this podcast.
00:01:11
pjasper
I mean, we make it.
Trustworthiness of Influencers
00:01:15
pjasper
Oh, I have to see what Jen is. Jen is a full time pyrography artist and mom. Uh, right. Jen, is that fair?
00:01:22
Jen
Yes, yeah that's fair.
00:01:23
pjasper
Yeah. Okay. So, uh, you know, while we don't talk about weight and get ourselves into trouble, Eric, how'd I do on your weight? Was I even close?
00:01:32
shyeetrock
that was That was pretty close. That was remarkably close.
00:01:35
pjasper
What did I say? 180?
00:01:36
shyeetrock
175.
00:01:37
pjasper
170? It was, yeah?
00:01:39
shyeetrock
Yeah, I think I'm around 172, yeah.
00:01:41
pjasper
Atta boy, not bad, huh?
00:01:42
shyeetrock
That was pretty good, man. That was pretty good, you know?
00:01:43
pjasper
Well, I've seen you with your shirt off a lot.
00:01:43
shyeetrock
I'm trying to keep the trim, you know? I got a hot girlfriend. I gotta keep it right. Keep it tight.
00:01:50
pjasper
I've seen you with your shirt off a lot, so that's not hard.
00:01:52
shyeetrock
Well, that's for the after show, baby.
00:01:52
pjasper
All right, um so. While we don't talk about ah certain topics on this show, we do like to poke the bear a lot. And today is going to be no exception. Eric, why don't you tell the listeners what you thought today's episode should be about?
00:01:52
Jen
Thank you.
00:02:08
shyeetrock
You know, I've been sitting with it for a minute and I've been i've been pondering the morals, the ethics, the the problems with ah the social media construct as it is. And i was I was thinking about this dude that I've seen pop up on the internet a lot. This guy named V Shred. This guy who likes to to sell nothing to a bunch of people who are just trying to better themselves.
00:02:28
pjasper
Pfft.
00:02:35
shyeetrock
And I had to ask the question, Can you trust content creators? Can you trust influencers? Are the things that these people sell on the internet worth your money? And are they worth your attention and your trust? That's what I've been sitting with.
00:02:51
pjasper
Okay.
00:02:52
shyeetrock
That's what I've been wondering.
00:02:52
pjasper
Okay. Pause. Pause. Let's do a lightning round right this second.
00:02:56
Jen
so
00:02:56
pjasper
Yes or no. Jen, can you trust content creators?
00:02:59
Jen
I usually don't.
00:03:02
pjasper
Eric, can you, Eric, can you trust content creators?
00:03:02
Jen
Most of them.
00:03:06
shyeetrock
This is a hard yes or no.
00:03:08
pjasper
Yes or no.
00:03:09
shyeetrock
Um, on the whole, no.
00:03:12
pjasper
And I would also, my knee jerk reaction is no fucking way.
00:03:17
Jen
ah
00:03:17
shyeetrock
Hmm.
00:03:18
pjasper
Yeah.
00:03:18
shyeetrock
That's a consensus. No.
00:03:20
pjasper
that I'm a no ah more than I am a yes. I mean, it's a percentage, right? It's like not a hundred and zero.
00:03:24
shyeetrock
Sure.
00:03:24
Jen
Oh, nope, you said hard yes or no.
00:03:26
pjasper
Well, yeah, no was the no is the majority. Now we have Eric, that's a great setup for the question. So can we trust content creators? And what I find so perplexing about Eric bringing this up is he is a full-time content
00:03:26
shyeetrock
Yeah.
Moral Dilemmas of Sponsorships
00:03:40
pjasper
creator.
00:03:40
shyeetrock
That's a, I just appreciate you not using the word influencer.
00:03:41
Jen
this
00:03:45
shyeetrock
at The I word is hard.
00:03:46
Jen
Hmm.
00:03:46
shyeetrock
It makes me shudder.
00:03:47
pjasper
Okay.
00:03:47
shyeetrock
It's it's not great. Um, listen, listen, yes, I am a full-time content creator and I own it. And, uh, this is a thing that we can, we can spend an hour talking about the, the moral dilemmas that I come up with against some of the sponsorships that I have in partnerships that I wonder about, um, whether or not I should embrace them. But. I think if we're so sticking specifically to the woodworking world or the woodworking and DIY world, I think on the whole, on the whole, the people who are making content
00:04:16
pjasper
Hm.
00:04:24
shyeetrock
versus the people who are selling ads are easily picked out. Like you can, you can separate those two pretty easily and you don't have to think too hard about it.
00:04:33
Jen
Yeah.
00:04:34
shyeetrock
I'm not going to name names because I don't think that we should do that. Uh, but no, that was, that was a big gasp.
00:04:42
pjasper
I wanna name names now, I'm just kidding.
00:04:42
shyeetrock
Yes.
00:04:44
pjasper
But Eric, what you're you're coming to is the first major point that I think you have to consider when you think about whether you can trust the recommendations you hear from a content creator, which is what is their motivation? That's like the first big topic that we need to dive into.
Motivations Behind Content Creation
00:04:58
pjasper
So what are, why do content creators do this?
00:05:03
shyeetrock
Well, in short, you make more money making content and then you do making objects.
00:05:09
pjasper
Hmm?
00:05:10
shyeetrock
That's just truth.
00:05:10
Jen
Mmm.
00:05:10
shyeetrock
Unless you, unless you're going to scale up and produce at a major scale, which is going to cost you tens more likely hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars, all you need to create content is a phone and, uh, like caffeine.
00:05:15
pjasper
Hmm.
00:05:25
pjasper
Yeah.
00:05:27
shyeetrock
That's it.
00:05:27
pjasper
Yeah.
00:05:27
shyeetrock
That's it. Like it's, it's pretty. democratized.
00:05:30
pjasper
Hmm.
00:05:31
shyeetrock
And so if you are trying to make objects, start a business and you're trying to market yourself as somebody who makes objects, then content is an easy way to do that. And then sometimes what ends up happening is you accidentally like myself kind of find yourself in the position of, Oh, I'm making more money making content than I am making objects.
00:05:55
shyeetrock
but I see the content as kind of a subsidy to the objects.
00:05:59
Jen
Mm.
00:06:00
pjasper
Hmm.
00:06:00
shyeetrock
So the the objects are still my main focal point creatively.
00:06:04
pjasper
All right. So the motive, wait, Eric, so the motivations money. Okay. Is there, is the motivation fame? Do people like being feeling internet famous?
00:06:04
shyeetrock
And yeah, I mean, very simply, the motivation is funny.
00:06:18
shyeetrock
I mean, I, yeah, it's, this is a, that's a weird question. That's an interesting question. It's a good question.
00:06:26
pjasper
Huh.
00:06:26
shyeetrock
It's a question we didn't discuss in the pre-show motherfucker.
00:06:29
pjasper
it does not
00:06:29
shyeetrock
I wasn't prepared for that emotionally. Uh, it's all right. Listen, I'm going to give the most honest answer. I think I possibly can here. Um, it is really. wonderful when people come up to you and they say, I watch your content. I love your content. I really appreciate what you're doing. Like that's a, that's a genuinely wonderful feeling.
00:06:51
pjasper
It is not.
00:06:52
shyeetrock
like It is an entirely different feeling when
00:06:54
Jen
Ah!
00:06:57
shyeetrock
people are weird on the internet and make remarks about you, about your body, about whatever they're trying to do and knowing that those people are also out there in the world and sometimes like eyeballs linger and you're like, I don't know if if it's lingering because
00:06:57
Jen
Ah! Ah!
00:07:09
Jen
Mm.
Marketing's Role in Success
00:07:11
shyeetrock
like you recognize me but you don't know where you recognize me from or you're like, oh, that's that guy from Netflix or like what, or if it's just like we we locked eyes for a lingering second and like you didn't think anything of it.
00:07:22
shyeetrock
Like you don't you don't know. So it's a weird, sometimes unsettling feeling, but when people do have like this genuine connection to your work, it's i it's an incredible feeling. It's really, really wonderful to be able to to help people feel inspired and encouraged to make things.
00:07:35
pjasper
So. So if I hear you right, it's not your motivation, but it's a nice to have when it happens.
00:07:44
shyeetrock
I don't even know that it's ah it it just feels like a completely random happenstance of making content.
00:07:51
pjasper
and Okay.
00:07:52
shyeetrock
Like that's not, that was never the goal, nor is it a thing that bothers me.
00:07:53
pjasper
Okay. Okay. Well, that's um that's what I'm saying.
00:07:57
shyeetrock
It just exists.
00:07:57
pjasper
It wasn't a motivation of getting into it, but it just was like, okay.
00:07:59
shyeetrock
No, but i I think for a lot of people, like it is a motivation, there is this thing of if you're not good at your craft, then you just want people to... And listen, um'm not I'm not trying to knock anybody. When you start out, nobody's good at the thing that you're doing, right?
00:08:12
pjasper
All right.
00:08:14
shyeetrock
like There's no way for you to be good at your craft if you've been doing it for six months or a year.
00:08:15
pjasper
Right.
00:08:20
shyeetrock
And so one way to counteract that is to build an audience, build a brand, build this persona of somebody who's really good at it, but you're just making the most basic shit on the Internet.
00:08:30
pjasper
Hmm.
00:08:32
shyeetrock
But because you say it really loud and you have big arm movements, then people will believe you.
00:08:35
pjasper
Okay. All right. so So that brings up a, go ahead, Jen.
00:08:39
pjasper
You ever thought of that?
00:08:39
Jen
I was just going to say, I feel like that's the only way to get some companies to even notice you, to offer you sponsorships in order to become a content creator is by being loud about it.
00:08:51
shyeetrock
Yes.
00:08:52
pjasper
Hmm.
00:08:53
shyeetrock
I think yes and no. I think people, people want personalities and we live in a moment where we have like the, the cult of the celebrity, which is a difficult thing to navigate because yeah like being a celebrity is no, like it's being a content creator, just being a celebrity on a minor scale.
00:09:03
Jen
Mmhmm.
00:09:11
shyeetrock
Like you are a super niche celebrity and that's what companies sell because I don't know. We're all fucking idiots at this point. Like, I don't know. I don't, I don't know.
00:09:21
pjasper
Hmm.
00:09:22
shyeetrock
I don't know why Kylie Jenner saying something is more important than an actual intelligent human being saying something.
00:09:28
pjasper
Ah, okay, so that brings up my next point is, so through social media, we've had and we've we've tossed around this term, the democratization right of of social media, everyone gets a seat at the table suddenly.
00:09:28
Jen
Yeah.
00:09:28
shyeetrock
I don't get it.
00:09:38
shyeetrock
Hmm.
00:09:43
pjasper
When it used to be only vetted domain experts or people with the right connections. that Previously, you weren't, and everyone did not have a seat at the table.
00:09:49
Jen
Mm hmm.
00:09:54
pjasper
Now everyone does. And with that, there's both good and bad. And so the bad obviously is, well, a bunch of blowhards who don't really know what they're talking about are particularly charismatic and have a big personality and get all the, you know, get all your attention and get all these marketing dollars.
00:10:09
Jen
Mm hmm.
00:10:18
Jen
Yeah, I mean I see a lot of artists that have like mind-blowing genuine talent and skill and nobody sees their content because they're not... I don't i don't like using the way the term like loud about it because that sounds like and not a good thing, but like, you know what I mean? Like just allow a loud ah big personality. And if they're like a quiet little sheltered person, but they have an amazing talent, nobody sees it.
00:10:47
pjasper
Yeah.
00:10:50
Jen
And which, sorry, go ahead, Eric.
00:10:50
pjasper
Well, ah Jen, this phenomenon could talk before Eric, because I got to say this shit.
00:10:50
shyeetrock
Okay, all right.
00:10:55
Jen
Okay.
00:10:57
pjasper
So, you know, what you're talking about is the separation of how good is someone at marketing and sales and selling themself versus how good is someone's art?
00:11:03
shyeetrock
All right, yeah you do, big boy.
00:11:04
Jen
Right.
00:11:09
pjasper
And whether you whether you apply that to, I know Eric, I know I'll give it to you in one sec, whether you apply that to like woodworking, you know, that lesson has been around forever, forever, whether it's like Coca-Cola or like, you know, any industry in the history of the industrial, you know, revolution, we learned that the best product is not necessarily the one that succeeds in the marketplace.
00:11:14
Jen
a
00:11:34
pjasper
In fact, it's usually a somewhat lesser product that had the best sales and marketing. And it's usually not the first generation. It's usually the third generation. So I learned from, from that whole perspective about industry in America, that it doesn't matter how good you are. I mean, you have to be good to play the game in the first place. Cause if you're total shit, you probably couldn't, you can't hang, but
00:12:00
Jen
Right.
00:12:02
pjasper
Being good is just your entry fee and the real game is on sales and marketing. Okay, I'll give it to you.
00:12:09
shyeetrock
So I wonder, you're exactly right. Like that is, that's an excellent counterpoint, but you're talking about industry at scale. You're talking about national or global entities. We are talking about individuals in the content creation space.
00:12:26
Jen
Yes.
00:12:27
shyeetrock
And as individuals, I don't think Jen, your, your argument could be, uh, it did The same principle applies 40 years ago in the 1980s when people were going to trade shows. It's not necessarily the person who's making the best furniture, who's very good.
00:12:50
Jen
Mm hmm.
00:12:52
shyeetrock
It's the person who knows how to sell their furniture.
00:12:55
Jen
And that's what I was sort of getting at.
00:12:56
pjasper
Yeah.
00:12:57
Jen
But my I guess my big point to what my original comment was that that person that's crazy good that nobody sees is who I would be more likely to trust if they were trying to sell me something like a tool rather than the big the big number.
00:13:11
pjasper
Yeah.
00:13:12
shyeetrock
Sure, sure, but the reason the reason that that trust exists is because they don't sell tools.
00:13:14
pjasper
Absolutely.
00:13:20
shyeetrock
Right? Or, or if they do, or if they do, they do it once in a blue moon.
00:13:21
pjasper
That's right.
00:13:22
Jen
the Right.
00:13:23
pjasper
That's it.
00:13:25
shyeetrock
Like this is the same type of person who's like, Hey, I would love to do this commission for you.
00:13:25
pjasper
That's
00:13:29
shyeetrock
I've got a queue that is, you know, see six years long. And when I get there, like I'll make it for you.
00:13:36
Jen
Mm
00:13:36
shyeetrock
And you're like, this is amazing. Like I trust you because you're being honest with me versus the guy who's like, yeah, I can do it.
00:13:39
Jen
-hmm.
00:13:42
shyeetrock
And then like every six months they're like, wow, well, you know, listen, its something came up, you know, I was just,
00:13:48
pjasper
yeah
00:13:48
Jen
you
00:13:48
shyeetrock
My brother had to go to Aruba and I had to lend him a couple of bucks. So I can't do it right now.
00:13:52
pjasper
ah Why does he talk like that?
00:13:53
shyeetrock
Uh, I don't know. I said, why did you break into an intercontinental accent or transatlantic accent?
00:13:58
pjasper
I don't know.
00:13:59
shyeetrock
Whatever the fuck I was at the top of the show. I think, um, there is. As soon as product and scalability enters the conversation, trust begins to degrade. And that's a tricky thing to navigate as a content creator because the there are tools that I use as an individual that I was using before I was creating content or that I've been I've integrated since content but prior to an agreement with them that I really believe in and that I really think are imperative to efficiency in my shop that
00:14:41
shyeetrock
I, I, it's really difficult to navigate that. Like how do I bring this into the conversation naturally?
00:14:46
Jen
Mm
00:14:48
shyeetrock
And people still trust me because I'm using this thing.
00:14:50
Jen
hmm. I think that's if I don't lump you into the content creators that I don't trust, by the way, Eric.
00:14:58
shyeetrock
I'm not, thank you, but I'm not trying to make an excuse for myself.
00:15:00
Jen
My point is like you established your talent and your trust with an audience first before you became a content creator.
00:15:05
pjasper
That's true.
00:15:09
Jen
There are so many people that I see joining.
00:15:10
pjasper
That's true.
00:15:12
Jen
you know, Instagram now. And that's the first thing that they want to do is they want to join to be a content creator, essentially the I word and influencer.
00:15:23
shyeetrock
Hm.
00:15:23
Jen
So they're not establishing any kind of trust.
00:15:24
pjasper
Hmm.
00:15:27
Jen
They're not showing that they have any kind of real talent or skill first. They're just boom, right in it for the fame and the money. And that's why I don't trust them.
00:15:35
pjasper
So Jen, this comes to that point that everyone gets a seat at the table. There's no there's no screening for for quality.
00:15:38
Jen
Right.
00:15:44
Jen
Mmhmm.
00:15:44
pjasper
So what do we do? like if you're if you What do you do? You're a hobbyist or whatever, and you how does one figure out whether I should trust this person?
00:15:59
Jen
I mean, honestly, if I see somebody hawking some tool on like my for you page, I will go to their profile first and I will scroll back. Like maybe that's petty me, but that is like me checking them out backstory wise.
00:16:10
shyeetrock
Hmm.
00:16:10
pjasper
See if they see if they have the skills to pay the bills.
00:16:13
shyeetrock
Okay.
00:16:16
Jen
Yes, yeah, I like that. Yes, that's exactly what I do.
00:16:19
shyeetrock
That's a t-shirt.
00:16:21
Jen
um And like me personally, I, I work with a couple very small companies that I genuinely trust their tools and will you know, advertise for them. And I hope that I had established enough of a platform for myself, for my business that you can trust me that when I'm selling this, I mean it, that it's a good thing. And I've actually turned companies down that have sent me free things. And I'm like, you know what?
00:16:47
pjasper
Me too.
00:16:48
Jen
I can't honestly give this a good review.
00:16:49
pjasper
Me too.
00:16:51
Jen
I'm sorry.
00:16:51
pjasper
Yup.
00:16:51
Jen
I will happily send it back to you, but I am not putting this on my page.
00:16:53
shyeetrock
100%. Okay. Question. When you sell those tools, let's just assume they're tools.
00:17:00
Jen
Yeah.
00:17:00
shyeetrock
Yeah. Okay. When you sell those tools, are you providing a coupon code?
Sponsorship Transparency
00:17:06
Jen
Um, I do for all of them, but one actually.
00:17:10
shyeetrock
Are you getting a percentage cut of that coupon code?
00:17:13
Jen
yeah Yes.
00:17:13
shyeetrock
And are you upfront about that with people?
00:17:15
Jen
Yes. Mm hmm.
00:17:16
shyeetrock
I think, I think that's the most you can do is just be as transparent as you can and say like, Hey, this is my coupon code.
00:17:20
Jen
Mm hmm.
00:17:23
shyeetrock
You know, there's a, this is an affiliate link, like whatever language is built around that to say like, this is the thing I've been using for a while.
00:17:29
Jen
Yeah.
00:17:32
shyeetrock
And now we're partnering together and that's wonderful.
00:17:35
Jen
Yes, but not everybody does that.
00:17:38
shyeetrock
No, of course not because no.
00:17:39
Jen
Like I literally got an email today from some company that said, um you know, we saw your page on Instagram and we love the color that you use and the character, the voices of your character expressions. And I knew right away that they didn't even look at my stuff because one, I barely use color and I ain't doing people.
00:17:57
shyeetrock
Sure.
00:17:59
Jen
So that is not my things.
00:18:01
pjasper
Can't cake canines and canines and cats and horses only
00:18:01
Jen
So.
00:18:05
shyeetrock
i I admit that I get a lot of those emails and anytime they open it with, Hey, Ian Curtis, I'm like, you didn't even bother to like open my profile and then look at my fucking first name.
00:18:15
pjasper
Yeah.
00:18:15
Jen
Yeah.
00:18:16
shyeetrock
Okay.
00:18:16
Jen
Yeah. So, I mean, but there are people that will fall for that right away just at the opportunity to sell something.
00:18:17
pjasper
Well.
00:18:21
shyeetrock
Well, and and there are people who will sell that knowing that their audience is so dedicated to them that they will buy or engage with whatever that they tell them to do.
00:18:29
pjasper
Anything.
00:18:29
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:18:31
shyeetrock
Like this is this is the entire concept of the TikTok shop.
00:18:31
Jen
Yeah.
00:18:34
Jen
It's like a con.
00:18:35
shyeetrock
Like people people are. ah Yes, it is. And people are open on TikTok about, hey, I was making nothing before and now I'm making
00:18:38
Jen
Yeah.
00:18:45
shyeetrock
whatever, $1,000, $2,000 a month selling fucking blow dryers on TikTok shop, and their followers will go buy that shit to make sure that they can keep creating content.
00:18:53
Jen
Mhmm.
00:18:56
shyeetrock
And like this this is the world we live in.
00:18:56
pjasper
So Eric, Eric,
00:18:58
shyeetrock
So ah at what point do you just kind of accept that this is the way the world works now? I don't know. I know. I know.
00:19:07
pjasper
Eric.
00:19:08
shyeetrock
i I'm not saying that you should. I'm asking the question, Paul.
00:19:10
pjasper
So, all right. So, so what we're talking about roundabout is how do you balance your lust of money or your need of money, whichever it happens to be with your reputation. What's your reputation worth? Do you have a price to say anything?
00:19:24
Jen
Oh.
00:19:25
shyeetrock
Well, it says are you asking me specifically what my price is to sell my soul?
00:19:31
pjasper
Yes, I am actually. Yes.
00:19:34
shyeetrock
Okay. All right. You know what this?
00:19:35
pjasper
how How do you, how do you balance?
00:19:36
shyeetrock
All right. All right. Let's let's.
00:19:37
pjasper
How do you balance earning versus keeping a semblance of your, your, a shred of your, your soul or your dignity or your reputation?
00:19:46
shyeetrock
That's fair. This.
00:19:47
pjasper
How do you balance that?
00:19:48
shyeetrock
This is a thought experiment that I developed in college. That is a, I call it the boy band.
00:19:53
Jen
Oh boy.
00:19:55
pjasper
It already sounds like a bad idea.
00:19:57
shyeetrock
Yeah. No, no, no, no. No, I call it the boy band argument. Okay. Hear me out.
00:20:00
pjasper
Okay.
00:20:02
shyeetrock
We all grew up in the era of the nineties and the two thousands boy bands were prevalent.
00:20:08
pjasper
Tell me why.
00:20:08
shyeetrock
And yeah, exactly. just Name any one of them, right? And there's always the one that you remember, and then the four other boys who were just like fucking there. And they have to live with the fact that they, for a decade, 15 years of their life, they went on tour, they sang the same fucking songs every night.
00:20:17
pjasper
Okay.
00:20:25
pjasper
All right.
00:20:26
shyeetrock
And nobody takes them seriously as artists because hey, they're Joey Fatone.
00:20:26
pjasper
All right.
00:20:30
shyeetrock
They're not a real musician, you know? So. What is your price point to be Joey Fatone? If you, Joey Fatone, if you were handed a check, a blank check to say, you're going to have this hit song, you're going to sing it every night for a decade, and you're going to be known as the fourth member of O-town for the next fucking rest of your life.
00:20:37
pjasper
Joey fat one.
00:20:57
pjasper
O-town.
00:20:57
shyeetrock
What's the number?
00:20:57
Jen
I love that you just remembered O-Town.
00:20:59
shyeetrock
God damn right.
00:20:59
pjasper
O-town?
00:21:00
shyeetrock
Liquid dreams, baby.
00:21:00
pjasper
I don't remember O-town.
00:21:02
Jen
It's because you're too old to remember O-Town, Paul.
00:21:02
shyeetrock
Liquid dreams. So that's the question. Like what, what is the point at which you sell yourself? And I've thought about this for a long time because if somebody walked up to me and handed me a check for $10 million dollars and said, go sing liquid dreams every night for the rest of your life, I would say, you know what? $10 million goes a long fucking way. I can handle three minutes of my life every day for the rest of my life. I could do that.
00:21:28
pjasper
Okay, but Eric, that's kind of a cop-out.
00:21:30
shyeetrock
This is all right.
00:21:30
pjasper
You didn't really answer my question.
00:21:32
shyeetrock
So this is convoluted.
00:21:32
pjasper
So wait, here, I'll give you, ah no.
00:21:33
Jen
You want an actual number?
00:21:33
shyeetrock
So let me, let me, yeah, he didn't want to answer the question.
00:21:35
pjasper
but Wait, Eric, i have a real I have a real question that you can't answer instead of fucking dancing around it talking about boy bands.
00:21:38
shyeetrock
No, let me rephrase.
00:21:38
Jen
yeah
00:21:39
shyeetrock
Let me, let me. Okay. Okay.
00:21:44
pjasper
um The question is, what if you get a sponsor and you and they're offering you 10 grand to appear in a video, let's say.
00:21:45
shyeetrock
He didn't want to answer the question.
00:21:53
shyeetrock
Okay.
00:21:55
pjasper
And you're not really loving their whole, what they represent or their product. What do you do?
00:22:04
shyeetrock
Is it directly woodworking related? It's my first question.
00:22:07
pjasper
Does it matter?
00:22:08
shyeetrock
I think it does. I think it does.
00:22:09
pjasper
ah
00:22:10
shyeetrock
So let me, in here's why I think it does. If I am a woodworking channel and people trust the information that I put out about woodworking and a company that I think is questionable offers me 10 grand to do a thing.
00:22:19
pjasper
Yeah.
00:22:24
shyeetrock
I don't know that I'm going to sacrifice the, the trust of my audience for 10 grand.
00:22:27
pjasper
Okay.
00:22:29
shyeetrock
If it's something entirely unrelated, if it's like. Again, I don't want to name names right now, but one of our dear friends maybe recently did a commercial for Teemu.
00:22:42
shyeetrock
that like If yeah.
00:22:44
pjasper
Oh shit, really?
00:22:47
shyeetrock
And so like if Teemu comes at you and they're like, here's whatever. Listen, this individual has far more subs on YouTube than I do. I imagine he probably got paid way more than 10 grand. So let's just call it 25 grand. I don't know if team who come to you and say, Hey, here's 25 grand and do a commercial that Timo like people already know team is a joke. You know, it's
00:23:09
pjasper
i I don't think I could do it. I don't know.
00:23:12
Jen
You can always find another way to make money, but once your reputation is ruined, you're done.
00:23:18
pjasper
Oh, Jen, the stinger is true.
00:23:19
shyeetrock
a fair point. It's a fair point.
00:23:23
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:23:25
shyeetrock
That's a fair point.
00:23:26
pjasper
It's true.
00:23:26
shyeetrock
It's also.
00:23:27
pjasper
The reputation persists long after the joy of the money is gone.
00:23:30
Jen
Exactly.
00:23:30
shyeetrock
It's also some spoken like somebody who's never had team who offer you $25,000.
00:23:37
pjasper
It's fair.
00:23:37
shyeetrock
I'm just saying like it's, it's, it's a, it's a fair question to ask.
00:23:37
pjasper
She, she hasn't.
00:23:39
Jen
I have not. No, I will gladly admit.
00:23:42
shyeetrock
Like can your audience differentiate the trust that you have in this product versus the commercial that you're doing for something that is wholly unapplicable to the information that they're relying on you for. it Because at some point it's a commercial like you don't you didn't get mad at the news in 1999 for having the commercial for fucking hair and shoulders.
00:23:57
Jen
See.
00:24:06
pjasper
Oh, that's a good point, Eric.
00:24:08
shyeetrock
You know, it's just a commercial.
00:24:09
pjasper
Eric, that's a fair point.
00:24:09
shyeetrock
That's all it is.
00:24:12
Jen
And like you said, everybody already knows TeamU is a joke.
00:24:16
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:24:16
Jen
But what if it was something that people didn't know about?
00:24:20
shyeetrock
Okay, so let's say this is a fair question. And again, I'm not defending any of this. I'm just, this these are literally the the morality questions that i I sit with from time to time.
Ethics of Product Endorsement
00:24:29
shyeetrock
Let's take FTX for an example.
00:24:31
pjasper
Hmm.
00:24:31
shyeetrock
Nobody knew FTX was a scam. And then the Superbowl few years ago happens and Larry David does like a fucking five minute commercial, including a number of major celebrities, not the least of which was Tom Brady.
00:24:46
pjasper
Tom Brady, yeah.
00:24:46
shyeetrock
And, and then ah FTX collapsed and Sam Beckman Fried went to prison and people wanted to sue Larry David for doing a commercial for FTX.
00:24:54
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:24:57
shyeetrock
And number one, how did Larry, if nobody else knew that FTX was a scam, how was Larry David supposed to know that FTX was a scam? But also it's a fucking commercial.
00:25:07
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:25:07
pjasper
Yeah, Eric, I like that.
00:25:07
shyeetrock
Like if you can't if you can't differentiate the idea, like the idea that a company would promote itself versus the individual asking for your trust and asking for your money directly, like those are two different things.
00:25:10
Jen
Hmm.
00:25:22
pjasper
you know You know the the struggle, now that's a very interesting way to see it. It's just a commercial, right? Okay, I get that. And then I imagine like one of you, one of my content creator buddies doing it and they, if it was just like, X is a service that does, if they're just describing that thing, that's one thing.
00:25:42
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:25:43
pjasper
But if they say, I love such and such, what I find so engaging about such and such is this, then they're they're they're engaging in a bunch of lies.
00:25:50
shyeetrock
That's fair. That's fair.
00:25:52
pjasper
And I think that starts to impact your view of their credibility. Because if they're saying, I use this, this is my favorite, you know, they're full of shit.
00:25:59
pjasper
And so then you wonder, what else are they saying that they're full of shit about?
00:25:59
shyeetrock
Well, and that's that.
00:26:02
Jen
Exactly.
00:26:03
shyeetrock
That's why I think the differentiation between is it woodworking related or is it not is very important for me because if it has nothing to do with woodworking, I'm less likely to be very cautious if it has some, if it is even indirectly related to woodworking.
00:26:03
Jen
Yeah.
00:26:10
pjasper
and Hmm. Hmm.
00:26:22
shyeetrock
Like I did a fucking video game ad a month ago and I got lambasted for it. And I was like, you know what? I provided videos for you guys and that's fine.
00:26:29
pjasper
Eric, you did the you did the solar panels in the dragon outfit.
00:26:34
shyeetrock
You know what? Hey, you know what? I stand by the fucking solar panels.
00:26:37
Jen
Ha ha ha.
00:26:37
pjasper
You know,
00:26:37
shyeetrock
The solar panels are on my roof.
00:26:39
shyeetrock
I haven't paid an electric bill in six months and they're fucking great.
00:26:43
pjasper
Eric, that was a hilarious commercial.
00:26:43
shyeetrock
And people, thanks bud.
00:26:45
pjasper
Like watching you wake up, watching you wake up in a dragon outfit, like, first thing in the morning, and it like made me so happy.
00:26:46
shyeetrock
But that's exactly what it was.
00:26:50
shyeetrock
Dragon onesie.
00:26:53
pjasper
Cause it was like so fun to see you in such an absurd position.
00:26:56
shyeetrock
Well, and so that's, that's part of the thing that I do enjoy about them is like, because I feel like there are no, uh, reputational stakes at it. Like I did an AG one video when I was in l LA shooting the new show and I still tell people, I'm like, I think this is my greatest cinematic achievement. Like it's a three minute commercial of me, like sh like Rocky style, like trying to get better at pickleball and like, then like I go to championship and I win cause I'm drinking AG one and it's fucking ridiculous and if you can't identify that that's a commercial part of that is on you but also it has nothing to do with woodworking so the thing that we're doing in the video you can still trust the information is accurate because because AG1 is way out in left field and then it's just three minutes of absurdity it's like an SNL skit
00:27:36
pjasper
Okay, okay, I get what you're saying, yeah. All right, all right.
00:27:41
Jen
yeah
00:27:43
pjasper
All right, so great great point about it being like, it's just a commercial, don't be too fucking serious, don't get your panties in a twist over it, it's just a commercial. I get that and I think Jen and I were careful about discriminating between saying like, I love this and I use this and I, you know, because then your credibility is tied to it.
00:28:03
pjasper
Whereas if you're just if you're just talking about a product, well,
00:28:03
Jen
Yeah.
00:28:03
Jen
-hm.
00:28:03
shyeetrock
Of course.
00:28:06
pjasper
I don't know how you feel about it. All right, so let's put that aside. And you know one of the things that we were talking about earlier, with content creation and being successful at it is the concept of a funnel.
Understanding the Content Funnel
00:28:19
pjasper
okay And I wonder if the listeners are familiar with this, because I don't just want to say, oh, the the funnel. okay So if you think about, if you think about it, there's this idea of an hourglass or a funnel. right And you know the shape. It's it broad at the top, and it wiggles down to you know very small at the bottom.
00:28:38
pjasper
um The idea is the funnel describes the size of your potential audience, really. At the top of the funnel, you have a very, very wide, huge audience, but not much depth, right? Because everyone can relate to it. It's the simplest project. It's the cutting board. It's the weekend warrior you're doing a project they can do in three hours with a hammer and nails and and one one saw. versus as you go down the funnel you increase the difficulty you increase the sophistication but also the audience that finds that compelling routinely gets smaller and smaller because they have to know what they're looking they have to relate to it you can't you can't put out some highly detailed highly um
00:29:26
pjasper
learned video about some obscure mini technique that only ah you know a hundred people in the world may know and think it's going to have broad appeal. it's You're at the bottom of the funnel. It just doesn't work like that. Anyway, so that's the concept of the funnel. um And so when we think about where we want to be on the funnel, I think a lot of content creators are like, well, I'm going to be at the top of the funnel because that's where the money's at.
00:29:50
Jen
Mmhmm.
00:29:52
shyeetrock
And I think that's a fair argument to make. i think like if you This is why I'm always careful to identify myself as a woodworker who makes content and not as a content creator who's in the woodworking space. Because the moment that that becomes my priority, Then I remain at the top of the funnel then I start doing the same thing that everybody else is doing chasing virality and trying to make the most Simple projects that are accessible to the most amount of people and i'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that necessarily But if you're using that as a mechanism To draw people in to sell them a product that doesn't really exist a la v shred that I mentioned at the top of the episode then
00:30:36
Jen
Hm.
00:30:37
shyeetrock
then it becomes a real sticky like business ethics conversation.
00:30:43
pjasper
So Jen, you, you had some, some pros and cons about, you know, the funnel, uh, as we talked about there, like it's good, like being at the top and hitting a broad audience is good for certain things. And it's also bad for certain things. Do you want to sort of revisit that?
00:31:00
Jen
Yeah, I guess like you were saying, ah you know, at the top of the funnel, it's big audience. Everybody can kind of follow along with what you're putting out, but it's actually kind of leads back to the last episode I did with you guys. Like, are you happy doing that all the time when it means that you're making money? um Or would you rather get down to the bottom where you're doing something that really makes you happy, but you may not have that audience that's going to get you sponsorships and let you be, you know, a big, big time content creator.
00:31:38
pjasper
So you said it's it's good for money for the people at the top of the funnel. It's good for their money, but it is a bad is it bad for the field?
00:31:42
Jen
Right.
00:31:45
Jen
Yeah, I mean, how many of the same thing do you need to see over and over and over again? And then I swear every time I open up one of my social media apps, there's a new person doing the same thing. Even if they just started, they're already doing copying somebody else, doing the exact same thing. And somehow they're still getting followers just like that. They're not doing anything new. They're not putting out any kind of ah was the word. Originality, um that's that might get a more niche audience to see them, but that's then you kind of just become white noise in the background because all those people at the top are overshadowing you, if that's a good way of putting it.
00:32:31
shyeetrock
So in in interesting manifestation of this that I saw recently, both of you know my shopmate Larissa. She makes a lot of timbre doors. And when she was down, I believe at Penland, she made ah a prototype where the timbre was carved and textured and had a really interesting rhythm.
00:32:50
pjasper
Oh, Eric, I've been seeing this too.
00:32:50
Jen
Mmm.
00:32:52
shyeetrock
And yes, and so, so let me, let me lay out the timeline because all of these people involved are, are my friends and i'll I'll name names and they know I don't mean any ill will, but it's just interesting to watch how that thing plays out.
00:32:53
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:33:05
shyeetrock
So we have a bunch of friends over in.
Viral Content and Morality
00:33:10
shyeetrock
April, I think it was. And ah Johnny from Johnny builds comes at the shop sees Larissa's carved cabinet. He's like, that's incredible. How did you do that? And she's like, well, it's just a tamper door that's been carved. And then Johnny ah made a variation on it. He didn't copy. He did make a variation. I'm i'm not again, not giving any ill will here. He made something interesting and then that blew up and it got millions of views on Instagram and on YouTube and So that was you know, that was great.
00:33:34
pjasper
You did.
00:33:35
Jen
Mmm.
00:33:42
shyeetrock
Like he got reposted by a bunch of major accounts um And then shortly after that my other friend Jeff at at two moose designs ah basically saw that go viral and then made another tambre door that was carved, again, original design, but same concept. And I literally just looked at it today. This is why it's fresh of mine. And then that post has 1.1 million likes on Instagram.
00:34:08
pjasper
I saw the whole thing. People were forwarding me those the whole time and I, I, yeah.
00:34:10
shyeetrock
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:13
pjasper
And they're copying each other just to go viral. They're like, Oh, you went viral on that. If I do it, if I do a so ah slight riff, I'll go viral too.
00:34:18
shyeetrock
Well, Well, and so here here's here's the morality argument, because if Johnny and Jeff both consider themselves business owners before they consider themselves creative entrepreneurs, then of course they would go after the market.
00:34:20
pjasper
And I'll make all this money.
00:34:32
pjasper
Sure. Yeah.
00:34:34
shyeetrock
That's the biggest.
00:34:35
pjasper
Yeah. I get it.
00:34:35
shyeetrock
Like there's nothing wrong with that inherently.
00:34:36
pjasper
I get it. Well, a bit du industry does that all the time.
00:34:38
shyeetrock
They just.
00:34:41
shyeetrock
Right.
00:34:41
pjasper
Look at Samsung and the iPhone, right?
00:34:41
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:34:41
shyeetrock
Of course. Of course.
00:34:43
pjasper
Everything looks like an iPhone today.
00:34:43
Jen
Yeah.
00:34:45
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:34:45
pjasper
Yeah, of course.
00:34:46
Jen
Did they go viral because they had a bigger audience to start with? Like, I don't know their, yes, I don't know their, yeah.
00:34:53
shyeetrock
than Larissa? Sure, sure. But ah neither of their audiences are equivalent. Like the the ratio of how much bigger their audience is to Larissa is not, you know, doesn't impact how big the that the the vari variety virality happened.
00:35:09
Jen
Gotcha.
00:35:11
shyeetrock
I don't know how words work right now, but you understand what I'm trying to say.
00:35:11
Jen
Gotcha.
00:35:15
pjasper
that That was a great example because I've been seeing that one and people have been sending it to me left or right. They're like, have you seen this?
00:35:19
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:35:20
pjasper
I'm like, yes, I know everyone involved.
00:35:21
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:35:21
Jen
this
00:35:21
shyeetrock
I've seen it 27 fucking times over.
00:35:22
pjasper
Yes, I've. got Yes, I've seen it.
00:35:24
shyeetrock
and and And the other thing is like, I'm glad for all three of those individuals that Larissa has this thing that people, that she made the object that people are like enamored with to go copy.
00:35:25
Jen
Wow.
00:35:25
pjasper
And so.
00:35:35
shyeetrock
That's a wonderful place to be. And then then Johnny took it to YouTube and it worked so well that he got all of this business from that. And then Jeff took that and went like, that's a great idea. Let me redo that in a different way. And it blew up for him. Like everybody wins. So from a business perspective, well, the consumer didn't win.
00:35:51
pjasper
Yes, except i everybody wins from a business perspective except the consumer.
00:35:56
Jen
Mm-hm.
00:35:57
pjasper
I don't know that the consumer wins.
00:36:00
shyeetrock
I'm talking about those three individuals.
00:36:00
pjasper
Okay, but but let's talk about the the top of the funnel, right? The top of the funnel is good for the business owners because they have the most eyeballs, but it's it's like sort of the dumbing down of craft for the rest of us.
00:36:10
Jen
Mm-hm.
00:36:11
pjasper
Like you want to see people pushing art, pushing the boundaries. You're not going to get that with content creators at the top of the funnel trying to make a book that is not going to push us as a field But however, let me temper my own ire.
00:36:27
Jen
Hehehe.
00:36:27
shyeetrock
Mmm before I jump in on that That's easy you just took my counter-argument right out of my fucking mouth man.
00:36:28
pjasper
like because because Because I kind of hate that. like i like I'm the type of person who enjoys like seeing people push the limits of things, right? And when you're just doing everything to make a book and to get all the views, you're not helping us as a field except for the fact that you're interesting a whole fuckload of people that may not
00:36:54
pjasper
that may not have otherwise had an interest.
00:36:55
shyeetrock
I
00:36:57
pjasper
And now suddenly, millions upon millions of new people are thinking, wow, maybe I should try woodworking. And they then feed the funnel with new humans that will eventually trickle down over time. So it it's a blessing and a curse, I agree.
00:37:11
shyeetrock
But that's not nothin'. That's not nothin'.
00:37:15
pjasper
Eric, it's a blessing and a curse. It's a double it's a true double-edged sword because all the content is gonna be pushed to the beginner shit
00:37:23
Jen
Mm
00:37:24
pjasper
but it does fill the funnel with a lot more people.
00:37:27
Jen
-hmm
00:37:27
pjasper
And there will always be people at the bottom of the funnel who care about the ticky tacky, the craft, the the execution, the trying new innovations. And maybe they're just not going to get rich off being content creators, but they're always going to be there is my sense.
00:37:43
shyeetrock
Well, I feel like the the confluence of trying to get rich and having the broadest audience, like that's that's the issue that that we're struggling with right now. But I want to take CFC as an example real quick, just the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship, just because it's the school that I know the best. But craft schools in general will have programs for every level. Most of them will. the overwhelming majority of classes that any school will sell will be toward the beginner because there are more of those than anything else.
00:38:16
pjasper
it's true it's true
00:38:16
Jen
Mm.
00:38:16
shyeetrock
And and those classes are the classes that pay for the programs to allow the the more advanced and the professionals to come and spend time in community with one another. Like the fellowship at CFC doesn't make money, it loses money. And it exists exclusively because The people who come to the school to take one to two week beginner to intermediate classes pay for that program to exist.
00:38:43
Jen
So is that the only reason that you, and that applying to like the field in general, is that the reason why you want more humans in the funnel? Like you were saying that as like, that's a good thing, Paul.
00:38:56
pjasper
Well, it's good for the craft, the more people that are interested into stuff. Like I'm concerned about woodworking ah atrophy, like it just dying out and the expertise aren't dying out.
00:39:04
shyeetrock
Sure. Sure.
00:39:05
Jen
Oh, okay.
00:39:07
pjasper
Like if you go to a typical lecture or woodworking class, the amount of gray hair in that class is is is staggering. Like there's a lot of gray hair going on in these woodworking things. And it does concern me, and I have some gray hair, so I'm not throwing stones, but of it does concern me Where are the young people, you know, that are going to keep this field
Targeting Beginners in Content Creation
00:39:29
pjasper
alive? All right, so that that's why I like the idea of of ah feeding the funnel, but at the same time, it's like the progressive dumbing down of the field at the same time.
00:39:29
Jen
but are
00:39:37
pjasper
Good.
00:39:38
Jen
i was I was just going to say like a lot of the young people that get into the wood arts. feel like they keep it dumbed down though, you know, like because they see that they can make lots of money on the dumbed down and never want to get to the to the level where they feel like they need to go to school.
00:39:55
pjasper
I don't know.
00:39:59
Jen
Do you know what I mean?
00:39:59
shyeetrock
I don't disagree with you. I don't disagree with either one of you. But I do, to your point, Paul, about the majority of the people in those classes being predominantly gray-haired.
00:40:15
shyeetrock
Any class that you ever teach, beginner, intermediate, or advanced, is going to be predominantly gray-haired white men.
00:40:22
pjasper
because they have the time and the disposable income for a class?
00:40:24
shyeetrock
Yes, yes, and and the thing going back to democratization, the thing that is allowing young people without money to become interested in and get into woodworking is seeing it on a platform that doesn't cost them any fucking money to have.
00:40:25
pjasper
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.
00:40:37
pjasper
Fine.
00:40:40
pjasper
Fine.
00:40:41
Jen
True, yum.
00:40:41
shyeetrock
And maybe 30 years from now, those people are gonna be fucking brilliant. Maybe, maybe, maybe not.
00:40:47
Jen
Maybe, a big maybe.
00:40:47
pjasper
Maybe. Okay, so, all right.
00:40:48
shyeetrock
Maybe one of them will be, and maybe that's enough.
00:40:50
pjasper
I have two more points about the funnel before we get rid of this but as a metaphor. The first thing is that I think the people at the bottom of the funnel who are really excellent at what they do, like domain expertise, right? Truly amazing. Have no fucking interest in social media. A lot of them. They're too busy doing their art. They don't give a shit.
00:41:13
Jen
Mmhmm.
00:41:14
pjasper
They can't be bothered with a YouTube video or producing this or producing that. So I think you know if you're lucky enough to get someone at the bottom of the funnel who has the chops for social media, that's great. It's it's ah it's good for the field. It's good for him it's good or or her. It's good for all of us, right? ah that That's one point I thought you know a lot of experts don't care about social media. The other point I thought is Eric, funny enough, let's take you as an example.
00:41:41
shyeetrock
You son of a bitch.
00:41:41
pjasper
you You're not at the top of the funnel.
00:41:45
shyeetrock
No, I'm not.
00:41:45
pjasper
you No, you're in a very precarious spot where you actually are not, as ah as we talk called content creators at the front of the hour, talentless hacks.
00:42:03
pjasper
eric Eric wanted me to say that in this episode, to say,
00:42:07
shyeetrock
ah You're not wrong. You're not wrong.
00:42:10
pjasper
Eric, you are not a talentless hack. You came from caring deeply about furniture and about design and about the philosophy behind it. And suddenly you're going down the funnel. So I feel like someone like you, and I would also include Keith Johnson in this ah category, the two of you are moving down the funnel.
00:42:23
shyeetrock
Sure.
00:42:31
pjasper
So you have this precarious balance of, well, I'm shrinking the available audience that might be interested. How do I keep it relevant and big enough that it actually funds me to live?
00:42:44
shyeetrock
It's a tricky thing. um And that's a fair point.
00:42:50
shyeetrock
People who live at the top of the funnel, I think, worry about one-time sales. And that, I can't survive on one-time sales because like you know there's no way, if you have a client that comes back seven, eight times in your lifetime. That's a wonderful client. I hope that happens.
00:43:11
Jen
Mmhmm.
00:43:12
shyeetrock
But I don't have a $10 thing that I can sell to a million people. I just don't. So I naturally come down a little bit further down the funnel where the people who are there have been there for a while and are really engaged with my work and really interested and want to see it continue to succeed. And I'm incredibly grateful for those people supporting me on on formats like Patreon. That's a huge chunk of what I do every month. Um,
00:43:42
pjasper
how do you make How do you pick video topics that are interesting enough to enough people?
00:43:47
shyeetrock
well, and that's, that's, that's the hard part. Like I'm thinking about right now, the I've made a couple of videos where people get really upset, not the initial core audience, right? Like what I learned. A couple of years ago is after 48 hours I largely ignore the comments because that's when people who don't give a shit about your work start commenting about things and it was a video about an old the one I'm thinking of specifically an old Stanley versus a Lee Nielsen and I refurb the old Stanley and I had my Lee Nielsen and I've had both of them for probably a decade and they're both wonderful tools and
00:44:09
Jen
Trolls.
00:44:26
shyeetrock
A lot of the comments were basically like, I feel like I just spent 15 minutes learning how to be ah ah an elitist prick. And because I was like, Lee Nielsen makes a great tool. Like if you have $300 to spend on a hand plane, I would probably buy a Lee Nielsen rather than going through the work of restoring an old Stanley. But also I'm going to show you how to restore an old Stanley. Cause I didn't always have $300 spent on a hand plane. But the takeaway was. You're being an elitist prick. And that's, I feel like that's halfway down the funnel of like, you're so niche that half the people who are watching this video don't even know what the fuck Lee Nielsen is.
00:44:54
pjasper
okay
00:45:02
shyeetrock
Like don't know what that combination of words means. It's.
00:45:06
pjasper
i See, I feel like you're at a tricky place.
00:45:09
shyeetrock
Yeah. I'm about to put out a video right now and this'll, this'll come out.
00:45:10
pjasper
yeah as a
00:45:13
shyeetrock
That video will come out before this episode comes out, but it's literally just me talking to the audience about like the philosophy of furniture that I have and what I was sitting with when I was camping in Maine and like.
Philosophical Themes in Content
00:45:25
pjasper
Okay.
00:45:25
shyeetrock
but how much is enough is enough. And like that video is going to tank. And I think sometimes that's important to just accept and move on and try to put out a good video versus trying to hear the five clamps that I would never use. You know, like how much value does that have to everybody?
00:45:43
pjasper
All right.
00:45:44
shyeetrock
I don't know.
00:45:47
pjasper
So Jen, do you consider yourself a content creator?
00:45:53
Jen
No.
00:45:54
pjasper
No, but you but but you do ah but you do have endorsements.
00:45:54
shyeetrock
The dismissiveness offends me and my people.
00:45:58
Jen
I don't mean it. I mean that I am not a content creator because I don't put out enough content to be a content creator. I, like you said, I have two kids. They are home for the summer, so I'm certainly not a content creator right now. I barely remember to like post once a week if I'm lucky. So yeah, I may work with a couple um companies that with tools that I trust and I use here and there, but I'm not on YouTube.
00:46:31
Jen
I'm not on the clock app. I'm lucky I'm on Instagram. Sometimes Facebook, if I remember to like hit the share to Facebook button simultaneously. So no. i don't
00:46:41
pjasper
Well, let's, where where are you on the funnel? Are you down at the bottom or are you in the middle or are you at the top?
00:46:45
Jen
Ooh.
00:46:51
Jen
I don't think I'm at the top because I really try not to like. One, I don't really make any kind of content where I'm like, here's how you can make this in a weekend kind of thing. So I guess I'd be somewhere in the middle.
00:47:02
pjasper
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:08
Jen
Only because of what I do, not because of my audience, if that makes sense.
00:47:15
pjasper
Hmm. Okay. I myself, I would consider myself, uh, probably in the middle to the lower portion, because I think a lot of what interests me does not interest a wide variety of people. And I realized I used to mistakenly think that the more, um, specialized some content was the more people would be interested. And I found the exact opposite as I would post more and more specialized content.
00:47:36
shyeetrock
Mm-hmm.
00:47:40
pjasper
I got less and less likes. So that was a very early lesson to me. Go ahead.
00:47:45
Jen
i I noticed, I mean, I don't know if you've done it recently or not. I can't remember, but like I remember you would post a ah reel of like you literally just like pushing a little piece of brass into like a hole and that would blow up.
00:48:00
shyeetrock
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:48:02
pjasper
It's so it's so disheartening.
00:48:02
Jen
Like, what the heck?
00:48:04
Jen
That's what, right? And that would happen to me with certain things, not to your extent.
00:48:12
pjasper
Yeah.
00:48:13
Jen
But I mean, that's pretty much made me realize like, why am I doing this? Why am I bothering? I'm wasting my time when I should be working.
00:48:18
shyeetrock
Well, maybe, maybe, maybe you are, but if what you do for the most part is create objects and you post to social media from time to time, and do you have a thing that blows up. Maybe one of those million people that saw that real stumbles upon your work and they go, holy shit. Paul makes incredible things. Holy shit. Jen makes the most beautiful things. I'm going to commission them.
00:48:49
shyeetrock
Maybe it costs me $400, $1,000, $5,000, whatever it is.
00:48:52
pjasper
Yeah, Eric.
00:48:53
pjasper
Eric, that's the that's the ideology of the ends justifies the means, right?
00:48:53
Jen
yeah Right.
00:48:58
shyeetrock
Well, so how much work does it take you to post, uh, putting a ah brass pin in a hole?
00:49:04
pjasper
It bothers me. It bothers me to to get, give yeah, it's like a dignity thing.
00:49:06
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:49:06
Jen
Dignity.
00:49:10
pjasper
It's like, it's so gimmicky. And I've done it before I've tried it. I said, okay, maybe I'll just try. I'll just see how it feels. And it felt kind of icky. And I could do it once in a blue moon, but I couldn't keep it up regularly.
00:49:24
shyeetrock
So that's what she said. Uh, so, so what's the difference?
00:49:27
pjasper
Oh my God.
00:49:30
shyeetrock
I'm just going to transfer back directly to serious conversation. What's the difference between that and having a gallery show? Like if you are a photographer and you make yeah whatever you're taking, you know, portraits of the animals, what, I don't know, whatever the fuck you're shooting.
00:49:41
pjasper
Yeah.
00:49:50
shyeetrock
And it just like you can't get a gallery to bite. And then you get a gallery to bite on you doing war photography for once. And then you get a chance down the road to do pet photography.
00:50:02
pjasper
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
00:50:03
shyeetrock
Like, I don't know.
00:50:04
pjasper
I get it. I get it. You know, the ends do justify the means for some people. It just, I can't do it. I can't do it. And i I'm missing out. I'm leaving money on the table. Everyone's like, when are you gonna have your YouTube channel? And I'm like, I don't enjoy making videos. So never.
00:50:18
shyeetrock
And I think that's fine.
00:50:20
pjasper
But i'm I'm leaving money on the table.
00:50:20
shyeetrock
But you also in that, but that's fine too.
00:50:21
pjasper
I know I am.
00:50:23
shyeetrock
I leave money on the table regularly, but the thing is money is yes, money doesn't money ultimately doesn't matter.
00:50:23
pjasper
But you know what? Yeah, but money, money's gonna fade.
00:50:28
Jen
Mm.
00:50:31
shyeetrock
It doesn't bring you sustainability. It doesn't bring you contentment in your life. But if you have your way of making money, you have more freedom to turn down those things.
00:50:39
Jen
Mm.
00:50:44
shyeetrock
When you are like, Hmm, I gotta, I gotta to pay my mortgage. And then Teemu comes over and says, I'll offer you $25,000.
00:50:48
pjasper
Yeah, I get it. I get it. I get it.
00:50:53
shyeetrock
You know?
00:50:54
pjasper
Yeah, it's a personal decision. How much your're you your reputation and your your principle your principles are worth.
00:51:03
Jen
Yeah. Your dignity and reputation are, I feel like pretty tied closely together in that sense.
00:51:10
shyeetrock
Jen, how much are your principles worth?
00:51:16
Jen
I don't have a number. You didn't give a number. I ain't giving a number.
00:51:19
shyeetrock
All right, listen, I'll give you a straight up number right now. This is this is the this is not for Teamu.
00:51:22
Jen
Okay. For Teemu.
00:51:25
shyeetrock
I don't give a shit about Teamu. Teamu will be like, I'll give you five. I'll be like, dope. um this is This is my shirtless post question.
00:51:34
pjasper
Oh.
00:51:35
shyeetrock
So yeah, yeah, this is where it gets real.
00:51:35
Jen
Oh, okay.
00:51:36
pjasper
Oh. What?
00:51:38
shyeetrock
This is where it gets real.
00:51:39
Jen
You can't, you can't compare that with me.
00:51:39
pjasper
Oh, Eric.
00:51:40
shyeetrock
Now listen, and and now Jen, you doing a shirtless post is different from me doing a shirtless post, but let's let's let's call it a bikini post, you know, whatever.
00:51:41
pjasper
Oh, Eric.
00:51:45
Jen
Exactly.
00:51:48
pjasper
What?
00:51:49
Jen
Uh-huh.
00:51:49
shyeetrock
All right.
00:51:49
pjasper
No way!
00:51:50
shyeetrock
No, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I don't post anything. Like when I'm at home, I never wear a shirt. I'm shirtless all the time, but I don't post it on the internet.
00:51:59
Jen
Hmm.
00:52:00
shyeetrock
So how much would it cost for a company to approach Paul and say, I'll give you X amount of dollars to do a reel where you're making a box shirtless.
00:52:03
pjasper
ah Eric.
00:52:11
Jen
You go from dragon onesie to shirtless.
00:52:14
shyeetrock
I mean, everybody's got a price because it don't pretend. Don't pretend if a company said, I'll give you $50 million, dollars you wouldn't do a shirtless post.
00:52:22
Jen
50 million.
00:52:22
shyeetrock
Don't, don't.
00:52:22
Jen
I feel like it's a pretty.
00:52:23
pjasper
Okay.
00:52:24
shyeetrock
Well, this is what I'm saying.
00:52:25
pjasper
Okay.
00:52:25
shyeetrock
So we'll work backwards.
00:52:26
pjasper
Okay.
00:52:26
shyeetrock
Don't sit here and look me in the fucking eyeballs and pretend you wouldn't do one shirtless post
00:52:27
pjasper
Okay. Okay. Who's first?
Ethics, Reputation, and Sponsorship Pricing
00:52:31
shyeetrock
for $50 million.
00:52:31
shyeetrock
dollars Lie to me.
00:52:32
pjasper
Who's first?
00:52:33
shyeetrock
I would do it. 50 million on the table.
00:52:35
pjasper
No, Eric, what's your price?
00:52:36
shyeetrock
Let's go. No, no, no, let's work backwards. Go ahead. $50 million.
00:52:40
pjasper
Me first.
00:52:40
shyeetrock
dollars Yeah.
00:52:41
pjasper
No, of course.
00:52:41
shyeetrock
Would you do a shirtless post?
00:52:42
pjasper
Yeah.
00:52:42
shyeetrock
Yeah. Okay.
00:52:43
pjasper
Oh, without a doubt.
00:52:43
shyeetrock
Jen.
00:52:44
pjasper
Without it.
00:52:44
shyeetrock
Jen.
00:52:45
Jen
50 million, sure.
00:52:46
shyeetrock
50 million. That goes a long way. 20.
00:52:49
pjasper
Yes.
00:52:49
Jen
Yeah.
00:52:50
shyeetrock
$20 million dollars is a lot. 10.
00:52:52
pjasper
Yes.
00:52:53
Jen
Yeah.
00:52:54
shyeetrock
Five.
00:52:55
pjasper
Yes.
00:52:56
Jen
Yeah.
00:52:57
shyeetrock
One.
00:52:57
pjasper
Yes.
00:53:00
shyeetrock
Don't pretend like you wouldn't do a fucking shirtless post for a million dollars.
00:53:04
pjasper
Jen's a bikini post wear a shirtless Jen's bikini 500
00:53:06
shyeetrock
Okay.
00:53:06
Jen
Yeah.
00:53:06
shyeetrock
All right. All right.
00:53:06
Jen
Yes. Yes.
00:53:07
shyeetrock
Bikini post bikini post.
00:53:07
Jen
As long as that clarification is out there.
00:53:09
shyeetrock
You wouldn't do a bikini post for a million dollars, a million.
00:53:11
Jen
A million, yes.
00:53:13
shyeetrock
You would. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:18
pjasper
,000
00:53:19
shyeetrock
500,
00:53:19
Jen
You're honestly probably not.
00:53:22
shyeetrock
500,000.
00:53:24
Jen
Probably not.
00:53:25
shyeetrock
You wouldn't do a bikini. You wouldn't just like, like I'm running on the, you know how much $500,000 would do?
00:53:30
Jen
I don't wear a bikini when I'm home with my family.
00:53:34
pjasper
That would be weird if you wore a bikini with your family.
00:53:36
shyeetrock
That would be very weird.
00:53:36
pjasper
yeah
00:53:37
Jen
yeah I meet like to the beach, okay?
00:53:38
shyeetrock
She's like, she's like, it's July 4th. I'm wearing that America bikini.
00:53:40
pjasper
Mom, mom, what's for dinner? Are we having sloppy joes for dinner? Hold on. Mommy just got some sloppy joe in her bikini.
00:53:47
Jen
Oh my gosh, no. No.
00:53:54
shyeetrock
You wouldn't do $500,000.
00:53:56
Jen
Yeah, I really don't think so. That's getting plastered all over the internet? No, that's where I draw the line.
00:54:01
shyeetrock
Who said it's getting plastered all over the internet? I said, you're doing a post.
00:54:03
Jen
Then what's it for?
00:54:03
pjasper
Well, Eric, Eric, Eric, she's putting a cap on 500,000.
00:54:07
Jen
But where are you saying it's going?
00:54:08
shyeetrock
yeah Okay. I don't believe her, but that's fine.
00:54:10
pjasper
Okay.
00:54:11
shyeetrock
You're posting this on your profile.
00:54:14
Jen
That's all over the internet, right? Everybody has access to that.
00:54:16
pjasper
It could be. It could be. Yeah.
00:54:18
shyeetrock
Everybody has access to it.
00:54:19
Jen
Right, but that's that's my point.
00:54:20
shyeetrock
Sure.
00:54:21
Jen
So like essentially it has the capability of going everywhere and that's where I draw the line, yeah.
00:54:24
pjasper
Yeah, it does. You're right. Yes.
00:54:26
shyeetrock
and Okay. All right.
00:54:26
pjasper
She's right. Eric, what's your price for a shirtless while you're doing work?
00:54:27
shyeetrock
All right.
00:54:30
pjasper
What's your price?
00:54:30
shyeetrock
Shirtless post realistically 20
00:54:31
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:36
Jen
Remember, your reputation stays with you forever.
00:54:36
shyeetrock
to 25.
00:54:39
shyeetrock
That's fine. Yeah. Let's, let's work out the contract details. how How long does it have to stay up? Because most have a termination period. Can I delete it after six months?
00:54:47
pjasper
Sure.
00:54:48
shyeetrock
Yeah. That's 25. Sure.
00:54:51
pjasper
25,000?
00:54:52
Jen
Nothing is ever deleted from the internet, by the way, either.
00:54:52
shyeetrock
Sure. That's fine.
00:54:54
pjasper
Oh, I would do it for less than that. Fuck, no one wants to see my fat, my fat belly.
00:54:56
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:55:00
pjasper
I mean, like people would be like, oh wow, that's a lot of flab and then move on.
00:55:02
shyeetrock
Yeah. And, and, and nope.
00:55:04
pjasper
So I would do it for less than that.
00:55:06
shyeetrock
Right. Like nobody is nobody to this point has specified that it has to be working woodworking related. Like it just be on the beach, you know?
00:55:13
pjasper
Okay, I have to tell you a little story about where how I felt violated. So I was doing some hand planing. I was doing some hand planing at my bench, right? And it was a close up of the vice and the piece of wood. As I'm hand planing, you see the the the wood, you know, scrolling out of the hand plane, right?
00:55:31
Jen
Mm hmm.
00:55:32
pjasper
And someone sent me a message, a DM that said, all I could see in that video was your package. All I wanted to look at was your package. And I'm like, I felt like, I'm like, what?
00:55:42
Jen
Was it Vicky?
00:55:44
shyeetrock
it was vicky i I have gotten similar messages, specifically one where I was working on a table and I was cutting a threaded insert and it just happened to be like on a saw horse.
00:55:46
pjasper
No, it wasn't. No, it was, it was a dude. um
00:55:52
pjasper
Wait.
00:55:59
shyeetrock
And everybody was like, all I could see was your package. And I was like, why really?
00:56:01
pjasper
Okay, so first of all, it caught me so off guard because, well, it just because. And then I watched it back and sure, yeah, you could see the package was in the shop, but it wasn't like prominent. And so I felt like a little like, I don't know, violated?
00:56:19
Jen
Skeaved out?
00:56:20
shyeetrock
Yeah.
00:56:20
Jen
Yeah.
00:56:20
pjasper
skeeved out because I wasn't aware anyway, anyway, talk about price, but anyway, it caught me off guard for sure that anyone would write me a message like that.
00:56:20
shyeetrock
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:22
Jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:56:33
shyeetrock
And so to Jen's point, like those are the people who are going to see that post and that post is going to live on, on the internet and you get to deal with the repercussions.
00:56:44
Jen
Yep, no thank you. I'm good.
00:56:45
shyeetrock
Okay. All right. All right. Noted Paul. What's your price for a shirtless post?
00:56:48
Jen
I'll be poor and dignified.
00:56:51
pjasper
Um, my price is very low because I don't care if anyone like I like the human bodies, the human body. Like you want to see my fat rolls. You can see my fat rolls. all I mean, like whatever. I don't care. $1,000, like low 500.
00:57:02
shyeetrock
A thousand dollars.
00:57:03
pjasper
Sure. Yay.
00:57:05
pjasper
I like it does. It does. It really doesn't move me. Um, you have shirtless, like you don't want to trust me. You don't want to see this shirtless.
00:57:05
shyeetrock
Okay.
00:57:13
shyeetrock
ah I could, I could.
00:57:13
pjasper
Only my wife wants to, and even that's questionable. And that's because she loves me. It's not because it looks good.
00:57:20
shyeetrock
I could drum up $1,000 just from this audience to get you to do a shirtless post.
00:57:25
Jen
Oh gosh.
00:57:27
pjasper
OK. All right, so I think we've covered a lot about content creators and whether you can trust them. And so what I thought might be fun, and I just decided this on the fly, is rather than me give the summary statement, we each give individual summary statements about, can you trust content creators? All right, so I'll go first. I'm going to try to think of a like ah a summary paragraph if i if I was giving a talk. I would say,
00:57:56
pjasper
um While I understand that many content creators are merely making a living, it does come with difficulty associated with it because their motivations are frequently based on money and getting the most eyeballs, which is at odds with the things that I care about, which is integrity of the field and learning more and getting into progressively deeper topics about pushing the art forward. That being said, I think we can figure out quite quickly by looking at someone, whether their intentions are pure or whether they are just money or some in between.
00:58:39
pjasper
And you have to make your own decision about whether they're worth your time. I personally have only found a very, very small number of content creators who are worth my time. yeah According to me, not that my time's some great thing,
00:58:54
shyeetrock
and I'm honored to be among them.
00:58:56
pjasper
But ah Eric, you are, you are absolutely among them.
00:58:56
Jen
isn
00:58:59
pjasper
You are, you are.
00:59:00
Jen
That'd be real awkward if you weren't.
00:59:01
pjasper
um And...
00:59:05
pjasper
So,
00:59:07
shyeetrock
Just wait till that shirtless post comes out, then it's gonna be all downhill from there.
00:59:10
pjasper
so um you know, I think most of them I do not trust. The vast majority, 90% I do not. and i And there's a very few who have shown me that they are trustworthy. That's my that's my summary. Who's next?
00:59:27
Jen
I'll go. um Can I just say ditto?
00:59:30
shyeetrock
Nope, no you cannot.
00:59:32
Jen
you No, I um like Paul said, though, I have found very few content creators that I feel like I can genuinely trust what they say, trust what they're trying to sell. And like I said, I will if I come across one that I haven't seen before, I will take the time to go back and look through their profile to see if they have ever established any kind of means for me to trust them, to um to to see their skills. you know um it's It's disappointing, I think, that
01:00:09
Jen
Disappointing isn't the right word. I do appreciate that. They are just trying to make a living um I wish more of them just would be I Wish it was more upfront to know that that was their motivation instead of them trying to pretend like they are um Not all of them, but some of them are trying to pretend like they're the know-it-all the next best thing You know take it from me like the V shred guy you he acts like he knows what he's talking about, but he doesn't tell you anything. So um yeah, that's on the whole. Really, I don't take too much stock in them.
01:00:49
pjasper
Let's let's so wind up with the act with the content creator himself, Eric. What's your summary statement?
01:00:56
shyeetrock
I would be remiss if I didn't give the audience the benefit of the doubt in their intellectual ability to discern who to trust and who not to trust. There will always be people who are trying to scam you. There are always going to be people who are just trying to give good information, good advice, and and progress the craft. If not for
01:01:28
shyeetrock
platforms like Patreon where people can be behind a paywall and we can have a conversation behind a paywall and I don't have to rely on ads and sponsorships, um then it might be a lot murkier. But if you find somebody that you think maybe you can trust and they have a Patreon, that I would encourage you to support them on that platform because at least for me, I can't speak for everybody. At least for me, I am able to have more open and honest conversation on Patreon and get into the nitty gritty because I know that that is the audience that wants that than I can on a public platform like YouTube or Instagram.
01:02:09
Jen
Yeah.
01:02:14
shyeetrock
That said, I think on the whole, probably not. You probably can't trust content creators on the whole, on the whole.
01:02:22
pjasper
Wow.
01:02:23
Jen
Ooh.
01:02:25
pjasper
I thought you
Skepticism Towards Creators
01:02:26
pjasper
weren't going to answer that. I was just about to lay into you for being a fucking politician.
01:02:28
shyeetrock
No, I, I'm not trying to be, but I'm trying, I'm trying to give my honest assessment. I, I think on the whole, you probably cannot trust content creators specifically when they are trying to sell you a product.
01:02:43
pjasper
Good for you, Eric.
01:02:43
shyeetrock
That's where I think it gets murky.
01:02:44
pjasper
That's that's your opinion and you're going to stand by it.
01:02:46
shyeetrock
I think on the whole, that's probably accurate. But also just for the record, you are consuming content that people are putting hours into and not paying anything for.
01:02:57
pjasper
That's true, too.
01:02:57
shyeetrock
So if that's the case, be mindful of the fact that they have to then make money somehow.
01:02:57
Jen
Yes.
01:02:57
pjasper
It's free. That's true.
01:03:03
pjasper
All right, good point.
01:03:04
pjasper
Great, great summaries, everyone.
01:03:04
Jen
Yeah, not everybody can be a doctor on the side.
01:03:08
pjasper
Doctor on the side.
01:03:09
shyeetrock
Please, please, he's a PhD. Come on.
01:03:12
pjasper
ah AKA doctor.
01:03:13
shyeetrock
ah
01:03:16
pjasper
Oh my God, you're the worst. You are literally the worst. You know, my wife always says that. She's like, you know, you're not a real doctor because you can't prescribe me medication.
01:03:21
shyeetrock
Oh, I did not say that. I would never say that.
01:03:25
pjasper
No, that's my, oh, you don't have to.
01:03:25
Jen
I didn't even say that.
01:03:26
shyeetrock
But I couldn't. But I can't turn down.
01:03:27
pjasper
My wife says it all the time.
01:03:28
shyeetrock
I can't turn down a good joke. Come on now.
01:03:29
pjasper
Oh, my wife says that all the time. All right, so with that, let's conclude. We're at the hour mark, and we're gonna talk about, what's our segment today, kids? What did we decide?
01:03:44
shyeetrock
Is there a design that you have gotten a bit down the road with that you became so frustrated that it wasn't working out that you had to walk away from it? And when is that point that you make the decision to walk away?
01:04:01
pjasper
I'm going to go first.
01:04:02
shyeetrock
Go for it cowboy.
01:04:02
Jen
Mmm.
01:04:04
pjasper
I was early on in my design years, exploring the tension between rectilinear and curvilinear. And I thought, curves are great, everyone. We should make everything out of curves.
01:04:15
shyeetrock
Hm.
01:04:18
pjasper
And I found this piece of oak burl and it was real curvy, real curvy in every way, but it wasn't like, they weren't like, they were organic curves. It just happened from the tree. They weren't like, I put them in. And I was like, oh, this would make the most beautiful serving board. I'm just going to make this beautiful piece of burl like the most gorgeous serving board you ever saw.
01:04:36
Jen
Hmm.
01:04:41
pjasper
And so I, I cut it out. Oh, look at that grain. m And I added a little flour to it and I was like flour. And when I stepped back from it, it looked like a giant bear shit.
01:05:00
pjasper
It triggered a disgust reaction in me. I stepped across the room and I said, that looks like a giant steaming pile of bear shit with a flower on top.
01:05:09
shyeetrock
With a flower in it.
01:05:09
Jen
A bear that ate a flower.
01:05:11
shyeetrock
Yeah.
01:05:11
Jen
Yeah.
01:05:13
pjasper
And I'm like, this is ridiculous. This is awful. What am I going to do? And I was like, I'm going to lean into it. I'm going to name it bear turd.
01:05:22
shyeetrock
Okay.
01:05:23
Jen
Did you really?
01:05:23
pjasper
I'm gonna put it, I'm gonna name it Bear Turd, version one. And it it had like the folds. Like if you imagine like a pile of shit where like the shit that's falling on top like folds the stuff under, like the wood had those like folds to it.
01:05:32
shyeetrock
Oh man.
01:05:36
Jen
Oh.
01:05:39
pjasper
It looked like a big um emoji of a shit.
01:05:43
Jen
Mm.
01:05:43
pjasper
And I was like, I'm gonna lean into this. And I listed on my website for sale. This is so many years ago. It's called Bear Turd. And I'm like, someone's gonna buy this. Cause I'm leaning into it. Well, lo and behold, no one bought it.
01:05:54
Jen
Mm.
01:05:55
pjasper
And, um, I can't imagine why. And, um, I eventually destroyed it.
01:06:02
pjasper
I was like, this is so ugly. It it stimulates like a visceral, disgust feeling in me. And I was like, this is stupid. I, and I just put it through the planer and it was done. It was gone. Yeah. So Barrett was an epic failure for me. How about you, Jen?
01:06:02
shyeetrock
yep yep i
01:06:19
shyeetrock
really want to make bear turd a cabinet by the way but
01:06:24
Jen
um So I think one of my faults is that I am a perfectionist and if I see something's not going right the way I imagined it in my head, I'll step away But then I go back to it and I make it work.
01:06:42
pjasper
Mm hmm.
01:06:44
Jen
I will figure out a fricking way to make it work. One, because I hate wasting things. I hate wasting anything, even if it's wood that I can just go throw in my burn pile.
01:06:55
pjasper
Oh,
01:06:55
Jen
But just all the hours of work that I would have already put into it would kill me to just walk away. So I don't really, I don't have anything that I wasn't able to eventually make work.
Perseverance and Excellence
01:07:09
shyeetrock
Wow, what a, what a long-winded hungable brag.
01:07:09
pjasper
oh my God.
01:07:12
shyeetrock
Like that was just like, I'm so fucking good at what I do that I've never actually failed.
01:07:13
pjasper
You're the worst.
01:07:17
Jen
that's That's not even what I'm saying. I'm saying I just said it was a fault of mine that I will just keep at it instead of just walking away.
01:07:20
shyeetrock
That's what I heard.
01:07:24
pjasper
Eric, Eric, it's a fault that I'm just so perseverant and so good at things.
01:07:26
shyeetrock
That's, it's, uh, my, you know, you know, probably my biggest flaw is that I work too much.
01:07:29
Jen
Hey.
01:07:32
Jen
ah
01:07:34
shyeetrock
You know, I was just so hardworking.
Failure as a Choice and Banter
01:07:36
pjasper
This is Professor Jennifer Diorenzo giving a talk at an art school. Now, yeah everyone needs to understand that failure is just part of the process except for me.
01:07:36
shyeetrock
I'm too honest.
01:07:44
shyeetrock
Failure?
01:07:45
Jen
You know me, you set me up for this.
01:07:45
shyeetrock
Failure is a choice, really.
01:07:50
Jen
You're evil.
01:07:52
shyeetrock
You never failed, Jennifer.
01:07:53
pjasper
Jennifer, nothing? No, ah that's not true. There's been some things that you've made with me that you weren't thrilled with and I tried to talk you into them.
Design Challenges and Ideas
01:08:03
Jen
Like refresh my memory.
01:08:04
pjasper
ah The center the center portion of the lace box you didn't like it Yeah by forcing yourself to like it I Didn't notice did you change it son of a bitch I got a check now All right fine.
01:08:09
Jen
i I don't like it, but I made it work, right? would
01:08:15
Jen
No, but did you not notice when you got it that I had had changed some of it? ah I did.
01:08:28
pjasper
God damn it All right, Eric
01:08:32
shyeetrock
OK, so I've had this concept for a chair since 2011, I think, and I've never been able to make it work. So the the idea that I have in my head, that I have it, it's a sex chair.
01:08:48
pjasper
It's a sex chair.
01:08:50
shyeetrock
So the problem is I keep trying to fuck on it and it keeps breaking. ah
01:08:59
shyeetrock
Got it. My joiner is just not quite right yet. So I've had this idea for a chair. this is not a Jen, your child should not listen to this podcast, by the way.
01:09:08
pjasper
ji Jen looks horrified right now.
01:09:10
Jen
I am.
01:09:10
shyeetrock
She's so horrified. She wouldn't even take a bikini pic for the internet, let alone talk about sex chairs.
01:09:16
pjasper
500,000 and up, everyone.
01:09:18
shyeetrock
So much money.
01:09:18
pjasper
Whoever's gonna offer.
01:09:20
Jen
don't Don't you dare. Don't you dare.
01:09:21
shyeetrock
So so I've had this idea for this chair where it's like if you if you can picture in your mind's eye, somebody sitting on the floor with their knees kind of tucked up. and their elbows like wrapped around their knees, just kind of like chilling, you know, like like kind of like sitting on the gym floor when you're in seventh grade kind of thing.
01:09:36
pjasper
Okay.
01:09:40
pjasper
okay
01:09:42
shyeetrock
I think the idea of having a figure sitting on the floor and having the seat there to sit on the figure sitting on the floor is really like intriguing. Like if you could picture where the head would be, be like the backrest. But then what I've never figured out how to do is make the seat integrated into the form in order to be able to sit on it. So you're not just sitting on like a sharp pointy thing, because then it does become a section of a different breed. And so this is like, I've been, I've been floating this idea for a while.
01:10:14
shyeetrock
And I've tried multiple times to iterate this thing into reality, and it never works in three dimensions. It only works as like a cartoon drawing. And it's one of the my Everest, maybe.
01:10:23
pjasper
Hmm.
01:10:26
pjasper
Um, Eric, I have a question for you based on that chair.
01:10:29
shyeetrock
Shoot, buddy boy.
01:10:30
pjasper
Have you ever made a piece of sex furniture?
01:10:33
shyeetrock
I have not made a piece of sex furniture. Have you? Mm.
01:10:43
Jen
Oh my gosh.
01:10:45
shyeetrock
Go on.
01:10:46
pjasper
A friend of mine may have asked me a long time ago to make a spanking bench for them.
01:10:55
shyeetrock
And...
01:10:56
pjasper
And I may have actually made said spanking bench.
01:11:01
shyeetrock
And...
01:11:01
pjasper
and it And it may have, for the better part of a decade, become the number one image result on Google when you Google spanking bench.
01:11:12
shyeetrock
Yeah, dude!
01:11:14
Jen
That's not a failure.
01:11:17
shyeetrock
That's not a failure so much as it is a resounding success.
01:11:18
Jen
ah so that that was a That was a question to Eric that was a setup for a humble brag for Paul.
01:11:25
pjasper
It's not a humble breakfast.
01:11:27
pjasper
Actually, I thought Eric's... I thought Eric's answer was actually going to be yes.
01:11:27
Jen
that no okay That's a proud brag for you.
01:11:32
shyeetrock
Really?
01:11:33
pjasper
I did. I thought you must have made something like that.
01:11:37
shyeetrock
i'm Listen, I'm sure I've made furniture that people have had sex on, but not intentionally.
Conclusion and Patreon Tease
01:11:43
pjasper
Well, I think with that we should wind things down.
01:11:46
shyeetrock
that ah oh So if you want more of that conversation, you can find it in the after show on Patreon.
01:11:48
pjasper
All right. Well,
01:11:49
Jen
Wow.
01:11:52
pjasper
Um, yeah, um, yeah, I, I would like to thank our patrons who joined this week, except the list is zero. So I'm not thanking anyone, but to be fair, we recorded only three, four days ago since the last time. Uh, but thank you to our existing patrons. We appreciate you.
01:12:10
shyeetrock
You guys rock.
01:12:10
pjasper
And we're going to actually talk about the pros and cons of making sexual furniture in the after show.
01:12:11
shyeetrock
And if anybody needs a sex bench, Paul is happy to make one for you.
01:12:19
pjasper
Bye.
01:12:20
shyeetrock
Okay, bye.
01:12:21
Jen
Oh my good grief.