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Episode 7 - Emotionally Durable Design: How to Make Objects that People Love & Want to Keep
1.5k Plays8 months ago
Why do people LOVE and CHERISH certain objects? What is it about those objects exactly? If we can figure this out, perhaps we can use these guiding principles to guide the things WE MAKE, becoming treasured heirlooms instead of disposable goods. This has far reaching implications for humanity at a time where resources are being depleted, pollution is impacting everyone, and our society treats nearly everything as disposable.
This topic has been pioneered by the research of Jonathan Chapman, professor at Carnegie Melon School of Design, in his book "Emotionally Durable Design: Objects, Experiences & Empathy." Our very own host, Mary Tsai, was a graduate student in Jonathan's lab, studying with him for a number of years. Mary is the perfect person to take us through this important and fascinating topic.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts
00:00:16
Speaker
Welcome back everyone to your favorite woodworking podcast that's not really even about woodworking. Woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined by my two illuminating co-hosts, Eric Curtis, a fine furniture maker by day. He recently has offered yodeling lessons on his website. We should ask him about that later.
00:00:41
Speaker
And Mary saw AI designer by day, woodworker by night.
Introduction to Emotionally Durable Design
00:00:45
Speaker
Mary claims she's not a nerd, but recently undermined that when she told me she bought her 45th copy of The Hobbit as a birthday present to herself. Well done, Mary. I think we need the cat is out of the bag. I see nothing wrong with this.
00:00:59
Speaker
I'm just saying. Also, I never said I wasn't a nerd. That's fair. That is I've known her for a while. She's never claimed to not be a nerd. The cat is out of the bag, Mary. So with that, I always struggle to get through these intros without laughing. So
00:01:17
Speaker
Today's topic is going to be led by Mary, and before I turn it over to her to ask our question, I just want to say beforehand, when this topic was suggested, I was super on board and super excited about it because I think perhaps this might be one of the most important topics we've covered to date. So with that, Mary, I'll turn it over to you. Cool.
Deep Dive into Emotionally Durable Design
00:01:40
Speaker
Who suggested this? Was it me? I don't remember.
00:01:43
Speaker
I think it may have been. I think it probably was, buddy. It's a very specific term, so I assume it was meant. Okay, so today's topic is one that's like very near and dear to my heart. It's a concept called emotionally durable design. And I'll just give a general overview of like what it is, how it's important, and why it relates to us. But basically, it's a sustainable design approach that aims to reduce
00:02:08
Speaker
consumption and waste by fostering enduring connections between consumers and products. It addresses kind of like the behavioral aspects of sustainability, so not really go, it goes back on like traditional approaches like recycling or like low-impact materials, the things that like I really use users have a hard time relating to even though they know they're supposed to think about it. But emotionally durable design shifts
00:02:33
Speaker
our perspective on products and objects from the short-lived and disposable to one that's more enduring and
Why Emotional Durability Matters for Artists
00:02:41
Speaker
meaningful. It's really about creating connections, telling stories, and fostering relationships between users.
00:02:47
Speaker
their possessions and we're talking about things that age gracefully and things that adapt to changing needs become more than just items that you own. I think this is really important to us as craftspeople and artists who are trying to put objects out in the world and the durability of a product isn't only physical, it involves things like love, desire, fascination, and attachment and
00:03:08
Speaker
All of these form counterpoints to the idea of throwaway culture and, you know, this is why people want to keep our objects around in their lives.
Origin of Emotional Durability Theory
00:03:18
Speaker
So this is a topic I feel really passionate about because
00:03:22
Speaker
The originator of the theory is my old thesis professor at Carnegie Mellon, our thesis advisor. His name is Jonathan Chapman, and I spent my entire time at grad school helping him research for his second book about this topic.
Examples of Emotionally Durable Products
00:03:35
Speaker
So I just want to give an example of something that is an object that ages gracefully, just to
00:03:43
Speaker
a concrete example out there, but I'll mention one that John then talks about in his first book. And this is a podcast, so I kind of wish I could show a visual, but he shows a coffee cup that is glazed in a way so that the unglazed areas reveal this like beautiful pattern as those areas are stained more and more each year. The cup ages gracefully, and it's actually becomes much more visually interesting and appealing as time goes on. So the more you interact with it, the more
00:04:10
Speaker
you're able to see the pattern and you can kind of tell that story behind it.
Incorporating Emotional Attachment in Design
00:04:15
Speaker
So my question I guess to both of you as woodworkers is like how do you input a sense of like emotional attachment into your creations by considering, I guess like do you consider how it resonates with individuals on a personal level? Are there like specific techniques, design elements? Yeah, so how do you go about this and what are your thoughts?
00:04:37
Speaker
All right, I'll take a stab at that first. So I agree. Well, first of all, in general, the whole concept of emotionally durable design really is important. I think I am so upset by disposable, the disposable culture in the world. I'm so upset by it. And I try not to
00:05:01
Speaker
be part of it. The objects that we make can be made in a way that
00:05:13
Speaker
forms a lasting emotional connection with the owner. And so I think it starts with the design process. When you're first talking with a customer and you talk about the design, they get excited. You ask them, what is it you want out of this? What do you care about?
00:05:32
Speaker
And then you poke and prod that and you say, well, what about this? Would you like that? And through the brainstorming process together, I see they become extremely excited and they're already invested. And that's like something I do with every single project I do.
00:05:49
Speaker
Uh, now I'll ask Eric,
Investment in Custom Objects and Storytelling
00:05:51
Speaker
Eric, now you, you have to, you have to weigh like customer input because much can actually derail the project. Sure. Sure. Paralysis of analysis. Right. But not enough. And you haven't rolled them into, into the process. Yeah. So no character or no customer input from Eric side. Oh, as little as possible. I give them the illusion of input. Uh,
00:06:16
Speaker
No, as you're talking about that, Paul, I'm wondering how much the unique experience of having a custom object made for you is playing into that, right? That's true. I think if we're talking about investment, emotional investment, temporal investment, like you can't take away the financial investment that people are making in these objects. The things we make are not cheap.
00:06:39
Speaker
And so immediately there's going to be more import on that object.
Impact of Production Scale on Waste
00:06:43
Speaker
And for somebody who that financial investment is not a thing they do regularly, the experience of going through that is unique and exciting and engaging.
00:06:55
Speaker
So I feel like that is, is no small part of it because when you deal with clients that, um, you know, are just so used, like money is not a real idea to them because it's infinite. They've just had money forever. They continue to have money forever. Then the object that you make them isn't as important most of the time, not exclusively, but most of the time. Uh, however, I think that's where the storytelling aspect of it comes in. And Mary touched on that a little bit in kind of her intro.
00:07:25
Speaker
getting them to engage with a story to find out what their story is and kind of imbue this object with a bit of that story, I think that is, I mean, that's my whole job, right? That's what I do for a living is, I don't want to use the word convinced because I don't want to make it sound like I'm a con man, but to some extent it is kind of that, right?
00:07:51
Speaker
figuring out what the story is and then finding a way to tell that story visually so that they are invested in that object for the rest of time.
00:08:00
Speaker
Or like a recent piece I did, that big old box for the client down in Florida who was child, their first kid, et cetera, et cetera, it was a beautiful piece and a beautiful experience getting to work with them. I mean, that just naturally has that story in it. So that investment in the object is innate. But I wonder about the waste component of it because the
00:08:30
Speaker
I wonder if that's not an issue of scale, and this might be where we as woodworkers, as studio woodworkers and furniture makers, come up against a different problem because we're not making things in production ruts. We're not making 10,000 of an object. We're not making 10 million of an object. And that is where that waste starts to scale up. But at some point, if I were to make
00:08:55
Speaker
5,000 chairs, then I would have a problem of waste and I would have to reconsider my design. So how like, I feel like we're separated from that particular aspect
Trends and Emotional Durability
00:09:05
Speaker
of the problem. And I'm curious how you guys view it. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, he said the concept was developed for
00:09:13
Speaker
I guess, industry designers, because that's where he comes from, comes from an industrial design background. And he teaches students in his design school who are going to that. So it is, yeah, like the scale of things is different. The point, I guess, the like is, yeah, is initially formulated towards the role designers whose job is essentially to
00:09:34
Speaker
craft away society is like a larger whole thing about their relationships with objects. So that means focusing on like social implications and making meaningful connections with people as a way to address sustainability. And although those like industry designers tend to work on a much larger scale than what we talk about as individual woodworkers, like there's still a lot of similarities that we put into our own roles and objects we produce. Like we're still putting pieces out in the world
00:10:03
Speaker
It's harder, I would argue, in the industry scale because if you're a craft person or woodworker and you're creating one thing, there is so much emotion and so much originality that goes into that as opposed to creating something that is supposed to appeal for the masses. I think that's where the aging gracefully is interesting to me because I think each person's product will age differently
00:10:31
Speaker
or how they are using it, and it becomes more personal and more customized to how they utilize that object.
00:10:38
Speaker
That's a fair point. I suppose I wanted to point that out early on in this conversation before we, and by we, I mean me, get kind of high and mighty on our horse about like, well, when we're just making one of a thing, it's innately better and more important.
Balancing Uniqueness with Mass Production
00:10:56
Speaker
Of course it is. If somebody only ever made one iPhone, it would be a fucking miracle.
00:11:02
Speaker
You know, like it would be the pinnacle of humanity. But just by scaling it up, I was having a conversation, it was kind of a parallel example. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who, you know, was worried about the environment and we were talking about alternatives to laundry detergent.
00:11:22
Speaker
And, you know, I have the little sheets and trying to like lessen my CO2 impact on how those things travel about. And he was like, well, that's a real problem because there's plastic that gets into the water supply because those have plasticizers in them. And I'm like, that's a hundred percent. But if you do anything, if any million people or 300 million people in the country are doing something, you're going to have a problem with the environment doing it because of the impact of that one particular thing on the environment.
00:11:52
Speaker
So I guess my point that I wanted to make is just before we talk about how much better like the chair is that I sit in to eat dinner because I made one of it once than it is for IKEA because IKEA is making a big global impact on the environment.
Personal Stories of Cherished Objects
00:12:09
Speaker
It's something to keep in mind. And I don't know how to fix that big problem because I'm not smart enough.
00:12:14
Speaker
Well, I yeah, so I definitely agree. I kind of wonder, you have you have you guys built pieces of furniture that people have, like, seen online and want you to copy? So I feel like that lessens the emotional durability to like you are copying something from like Craig barrel or pottery barn that they've seen before. Sure, sure. Then that's just a temporary thing. Like they're gonna fall out of out of love with it as soon as they fall out of love with that style or
00:12:43
Speaker
one thing and I know, oh yeah, probably go ahead. No, go ahead. Finish your thought, Mary. No, no, I was done. Okay. So, you know, I see, so I have thoughts. So I see two axes, two big topics coming out of this, this start to this conversation, right? So the, the biggest topic I think at the biggest level is what
00:13:03
Speaker
What drives emotionally durable design in a broad sense? Never mind woodworking. And Mary, I heard you say like three or four answers. The ones I heard you say was like an Eric too. It could be the material. It could be a material you love. It could be an expensive material and that interests you. The material itself draws, you know, makes you love it.
00:13:25
Speaker
It could be the aging and the passage of time on that object, like a patina. Like when we think about wood, when things get patina, they're like super. We love them even more.
Role of Storytelling in Design
00:13:38
Speaker
Sentimentality of the object. Now that's, Eric, what we spend most of our time talking about already is like, did they have a role in the design? What was the story? Is it one of a kind? The sentimentality is a huge bonding. The next that I heard Mary say is the function of the object.
00:13:55
Speaker
Does it solve a problem for our life? Does it make our lives better on a routine basis? And then there's the issue of rarity, which we talked about. If it's super rare, it just feels more valuable. And also, we talked about in some essence, like style. Is the object like a fad that's going to be gone in five to 10 years? Or does it like, in essence, timeless? Those are like the big picture
00:14:23
Speaker
answers I've heard so far about like emotional durability. And then there's a separate set and Mary, I'll turn it over to you. There's a separate set of like, how as woodworkers or makers do we tap into those? What do we do to tap into those broader subjects? Go ahead, Mary. Yeah, I mean, just to be backing on one of the later points that you said, I like, I try to think about like, how do we deal with like fads and trends that we know are temporary? And like,
00:14:53
Speaker
I feel like those really encouraged their away culture mindset because it's, that's the whole point of the trend. It's trending now. And like people want, yeah, they commission a piece and they're like, Oh, this will look good now. Like, of course that's going to change. Like tastes change over time as much as you don't want to admit it like that. I really have a problem with because, I mean, it's difficult because someone orders need to make money and they need to build it. But if we're talking about emotional durability,
00:15:21
Speaker
those are the customers that are gonna lose that emotional attachment. But isn't that just innate in humanity? Like that's what we do. We see other people have a resource that we don't have and we want it. So how do we combat that? Like in the moment that you produce things on a mass scale, it no longer has the same value. Like this is the Sneech's argument, right? Like as soon as you put stars on everybody's belly, then like stars don't matter anymore.
00:15:49
Speaker
So it's like this is a hard balance of being like I could make a spoon for somebody. The moment I go to mass produce that spoon, now it's available to everybody and it's worth less. So Eric, what does that have to do with Mary's point about it being a fad or not a fad?
00:16:05
Speaker
Well, because if it's a fad, people want it because they're being told it's a fad and because, you know, you, like, it's, it's, I'm wondering, I suppose, if it's this just innate human psychological effect that you say, you should have that. There aren't that many of that. So I need to go get that. And as soon as everybody has it, now the fad is over and you move on. Oh, I understand. It's not worth anything. I understand. Sorry. I didn't follow. Yeah. I follow now. Yep. Yeah. I need to.
00:16:32
Speaker
counterpoint, I guess, with an example, again, but this is difficult because we're talking about like industry versus like one off pieces. Like one example that Jonathan talks about is like a toaster. So a toaster is very standard, like just like a regular metal toaster that you put your bread into. One example he's thrown in the past is if the foot breaks off of a toaster, do people just chuck the thing most likely nowadays? But like,
00:17:01
Speaker
If to keep it around, there's, uh, I forget what the company is called, but they, they make like this like moldy putty and it's like this bright orange putty. And then his example was like, he replaced the toaster foot with this putty. Then that becomes something interesting in the household that you ignored before. Cause people, when they walk by, they're like, what is this?
Significance of Personal Cherished Objects
00:17:19
Speaker
And then it tells a story. You become quote unquote, more emotionally attached because you have customized it yourself. Yeah. One, it helps the, like the sustainability aspect is you're not throwing the way to it's creep.
00:17:31
Speaker
What is that, plugging this up? Sorry, saying castor is getting strange. It actually enhances your story and it customizes it more to your taste and you start to form more of an attachment because you're like, all right, I've modified this to be a little different even though it was sold to me as this standard object. What's hilarious about that is about
00:17:56
Speaker
eight months ago my toaster broke and I hadn't yet heard about this example and it broke it like just wouldn't turn on and so I was like god damn it and so I yes I threw it out and the next toaster I looked to buy I was like I am gonna get the the damn best most like I'm gonna get the toaster that lasts the rest of my life and I looked high and low
00:18:20
Speaker
and I just couldn't identify something high quality where they're like, yeah, this will go 10, 20 years, no problem if you're a parent. All I could find was junk. And I was so kind of irritated by the fact that I want to buy
00:18:36
Speaker
sustainable stuff that last me the rest of my life and I couldn't even find it. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I'm sure there's some German store that sells some amazing toaster, right? I don't know if it is. It's called and planned obsolescence where the goal of the businesses is to create objects that don't stick around so that you will have to purchase their products.
00:18:57
Speaker
I think an interesting point that John was his name, right? John made in the talk that you sent us was about the utility of planned obsolescence early on, right? Like when it was invented, getting us out of the Great Depression.
00:19:13
Speaker
on the allowing industry to boot up again because people now needed a thing but what struck me about that is the change in mindset of like they had to figure out a way to be clever enough to convince people who knew that like a refrigerator was a refrigerator and this is good enough to now need not just a new refrigerator but a better refrigerator a more expensive refrigerator and that like
00:19:38
Speaker
They just they figured out this psychological effect to really tap into that and fuck with that. And I thought that was a really interesting point to bring up. I don't know how that how that affects how we look at our own work.
00:19:52
Speaker
So all right, I'll come back to the to the art example. But Eric, you've been to my place several times. And you know that I cook our family cooks on a 1950s Hotpoint stove. I've had it since I bought the house, which is like almost 20 years now. And it hasn't had to be fixed once. Not once.
00:20:13
Speaker
And what is it now? 70 years old? And it just keeps working. It's amazing. And I want my entire life to be filled with objects like that. I just love them. They're quirky. They're not particularly convenient, but they last my whole life. Okay, so I have a question for y'all. Do you have any objects that you would, like what are the objects that have become your cherished companions?
00:20:40
Speaker
Like, which ones stand the test of time, both musically and emotionally? Like, I guess I, I listened to people like, if there, if you had a fire and you had to save something, what would it be? I could go first. Yeah. Go, go first, Mary. And we just talked about, I actually, I just talked with my family around, around the dinner table about this before recording this. So we have answers to go. You go first, Mary. Yeah. Um.
00:21:05
Speaker
In general, well, the most obvious answer I'd like to say, and this is true, is any of the pieces of art created by my friends that I have in my house. But I know my top answer is absolutely my violin, which is the most emotional attack from my half to an object. It's something that I grew up with. I don't even play it anymore, but it's just something that I have invested so much emotion and time into and
00:21:34
Speaker
I found out that it was also very financially like a good financial investment.
Aging and Emotional Value of Objects
00:21:40
Speaker
fairly recently, apparently it was made in 1723 by Stradivarius' student. Oh my God. He didn't do any of this. As a kid, I was just swinging this thing around, knocking it against bricks and cracking it. I treated it terribly, and then now I treat it in such reverence. I'm like, how did I do this as a kid? But absolutely, that's the one thing that I will never sell, even though I'm sure it's worth a lot of money.
00:22:08
Speaker
weren't we just talking about being elitist before we started recording? And for those of you that don't know, when Mary says she played violin, we're not talking hot cross buns here. Mary could have been the penultimate of a professional
00:22:29
Speaker
violent player. If you heard what she's playing at age 17, it's almost unthinkably complicated and amazing. So when Mary says violent playing, it's not just violent playing Mary. Okay. Mary, she's in K-book.
00:22:46
Speaker
Mary cannot talk about herself in any self-promoting way like that. You have to let people know that she's a bad bitch. Yeah, she's definitely amazing. Okay, I actually asked my family this and well, my wife said it was the house itself because she loves our house so much. It's the house. No, I don't mean the things in it. I mean the house, the structure.
00:23:14
Speaker
She's like, how's she gonna take that out of the burning house? I don't know, Eric. But she tells me that she has nightmares and wakes up.
00:23:25
Speaker
thinking that we either sold the house or we have to leave the house. And those are her nightmares. My daughter said it was the necklace I made for her and hand engraved for her with her initial this Christmas, which I was very touching. I tried not to get a little weepy when she gave that answer. And for me,
00:23:46
Speaker
my answer was my William and Mary high chest because I've always wanted one. I see it every single day I wake up and get dressed and it's so beautiful. I just like I can't even stand how beautiful it looks visually. And I have dreams of like, you know,
00:24:01
Speaker
My daughter inheriting it someday. So that object is you know, I put three or four hundred hours of work into it So it just it just encapsulates a lot of my life and what I like and what I see for my daughter And anyway, those are those are my answers Eric This is hard guys, I'm not gonna lie
00:24:22
Speaker
Don't know that hundreds of chickens that I hid in your house while you were gone Oh, definitely definitely the the picture of you is Ron Swanson would be high atop the list I don't know if I have an object that I would rush back into a burning house to get I think it's it's a
00:24:44
Speaker
The objects mean a lot to me.
Emotional Connection vs. Mass Production
00:24:46
Speaker
The objects that I've made, the objects that friends have have made and given to me. But more than that, like they are they are embodiment. This comes back to the emotional connection in the story of the thing, right? They are embodiments and manifestations of moments and relationships and people that I love. But but the people in the relationships are far more important. They are like the objects are
00:25:14
Speaker
Uh, uh, like Plato's cave, you know, like they're just a projection on a wall. Like, did he call you an elitist earlier?
00:25:29
Speaker
Sorry. Listen, I've never owned a Stradivarius, okay? I'm sorry. I don't like that. But realistically, if my house burned down and my house is my life's worth, it houses all of the objects that I've made that I've not sold, objects that are deeply important as momentos of places where I was in the past.
00:25:54
Speaker
I wouldn't be devastated that they were gone because I still got to make them, right? Like the the the ability to express and get it out has already been accomplished. And now they're just reminders of that thing that I experienced.
00:26:11
Speaker
So I think I would be far more devastated if I got hit on the head and couldn't remember how to do this thing anymore than if the objects that I've already made or people have made me work on. I thought you were going to say you'd be devastated if you got hit on the head and couldn't remember me as your friend.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's what I meant to say. That is what I meant to say. God damn it. Like my, I was originally gonna say like something that I made, but like, no, I don't care about that. Cause I can always just remake it. It is interesting. Could you remake it though? What?
Repairability and Material Choices
00:26:53
Speaker
Could you remake it though? My violin?
00:26:57
Speaker
No, like the objects that you've made. Oh, like you could you could create a new version of them, but they wouldn't be the same thing. That's true. That's true. That's true. I think the well, I thought it was an interesting difference between our answers of like my violin is something that I could not make myself. And it's not something that I can replicate or find another version of.
00:27:25
Speaker
So in my mind, that's why I was like, okay, if there's a piece of furniture that I made or a friend made me, then I could get it again now. But for that violin, that thing is so old and so timeless, so much emotion in it. I don't think I could replicate that. So all of this is talking about the uniqueness of the objects, right? They are important because they are one of one.
00:27:50
Speaker
And the one example that we had talked about earlier, on an industrial scale, about what could make better emotionally durable design was like a graceful agent.
00:28:08
Speaker
You know, you got to be an ace fool. And, and like that stuck out to me of like that interesting idea of the cup of it. It's not aging. It's not that it ages. That's interesting is that it ages uniquely. Everyone ages uniquely because of the way that it's handled and used. Yeah. It's a one way conversation. It's like a mutual evolution and growth.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yes, you're very much involved in how the object sustains itself over time. And that seems to be a universal thing about what we were all just talking about, the object being one of one. And so as soon as it's blanket, as soon as it's exactly the same, does it lose that value and lose the ability to be emotionally durable?
00:28:59
Speaker
And I don't know that I have an answer. I'm asking that question. I guess I would say no, because Mary's cup, by example, they could have made a thousand cups and a thousand people will enjoy that journey with their cup aging. And, you know, furniture like Windsor chairs, like they're everywhere, right? But as they age, the paint wears off and you can see where the wear was in that family, like where you sat, where you put your arms. So it doesn't necessarily have to be unique to have that
00:29:24
Speaker
Aceful grazing. Aceful grazing. But wait, actually, I do want to point this out though, that with furniture and woodworking in particular, not furniture,
Sustainability Concerns: Epoxy and Microplastics
00:29:35
Speaker
with woodworking often, people value the thing so much that they don't even want to use it. They're like, this is going to sit on my shelf.
00:29:46
Speaker
and it's just gonna be looked at. And I gotta be honest, like, look, you bought the piece, you can do anything you want with it, that's fine, right? You know, you do you. But a part of me inside dies because I know that them using the object will make them closer together, it'll get that patina and pull them in and they'll have that relationship. So it hurts to hear that as a maker.
00:30:12
Speaker
But that's also what causes the graceful aging, right? Like it's the use, like the Windsor chair back to that event. That's a beautiful example because that's like it's akin to the cup. You can make a million Windsor chairs. You can make a million of those cups and they all become unique over time.
00:30:30
Speaker
And so, again, I think it sounds as though it's the uniqueness that imbues meaning on it because it becomes one of one after time. Oh, good point. Yes, absolutely. I agree. A hundred percent. Now, I want to ask you guys a question that has to do with the practicality issue that I've been thinking a lot about emotional, durable design. If you're saying we want to have these pieces for the rest of our life,
00:30:57
Speaker
there's a practical part to this is that it must be reasonably fixed or repairable.
00:31:05
Speaker
And I was thinking about this with respect to woodworking. Now, my first thought was like, well, everything's got electronics now. And once a circuit board goes, how many people have the know-how to repair a circuit board? Ugh, right? So once everything's full of circuitry, it's like repairing it is like next to impossible. Like you send out for a new motherboard, right? That's the best you can do. But with furniture and wood in particular,
00:31:34
Speaker
I think this goes for a few other disciplines. I think we have a unique opportunity to make the pieces we create last have that durability component and stay with the people for life if we
00:31:47
Speaker
make them in a repairable, fixable fashion. Now, what do I mean? I think there's a few axes. Number one, I'm going to... Oh, here we go. I can feel myself warming up for the argument. So number one, when I know it's an object that I want to go the test of time, I use cowhide glue and not modern glues. Why? Because cowhide glue can be reversed with water
00:32:11
Speaker
and you don't have to scrape it off the wood and you don't have to tear the thing apart and break it. It can be reversed, repaired, put back together, fine. The second thing I use is finishes that are non-toxic and reversible, like shellac.
00:32:27
Speaker
not converged in varnish, not these nasty, you know, dryers and films and plastic and urethanes. Like if you want it to go and be repaired in the future, I suppose we're really talking maybe oils and waxes in shellac. Oh, the oils and waxes are tough to get off. Any conservative will yell at you if you use them. And the last issue that I'm going to ask you both, you know, for your thoughts on this is real wood versus particle board and MDF.
00:32:56
Speaker
One we know can be repaired quite easily and the others are tough. So what are your thoughts about that?
3D Printing and Emotional Durability
00:33:05
Speaker
So my immediate first thought is I like the example that you used of a circuit board, because I certainly don't have the skills or the tools to repair one or the knowledge. But I have taught many people of many different ages
00:33:24
Speaker
in many different places in the country. And most folks don't have the tooling or the skill set to repair furniture either. And so I wonder if it's, to me, I think an answer, I can't say the answer, and I don't even know if it's an answer, or if it's
00:33:43
Speaker
a way to take a step forward is skill building. Listen, if tech's your thing, you don't have to build furniture. If you can figure out how to fix a circuit board, that's a hugely valuable skill when it comes to not creating so much e-waste and cutting back on that. But specifically in regards to furniture and your questions,
00:34:05
Speaker
Hide glue is wonderful and I think we should use it more. Old brown glue specifically, things that have a longer open time that are easier to work with and don't require a pot, 10 out of 10 would recommend. Shellac finishes are always going to be hard to sell to clients because they just don't hold up to the use and abuse of
00:34:25
Speaker
Children, specifically, they do. They hold up, well, I see your face. They hold up well, but they don't hold up as well as people want them to because they're so used to plasticized finishes.
00:34:36
Speaker
And that's, that's a real conversation that you have to have with clients. And I don't remember your third point. So, uh, why disagree on your second point, but so anyway, no, I'm just kidding. No, my third point was about real wood versus particle board. So I asked myself this question the other day and I'm, I'm going to ask you right now. Do you have any particle board furniture in your places? Do you own any or MDF? I own one piece. Yeah. Mary, how many?
00:35:08
Speaker
I must have some sort of IKEA thing around here. I don't have many left, but I am sure I have some sort of IKEA thing left over from when I was younger or when my parents gave to me because I didn't have the money. But yes, but the goal is to get rid of it and replace it with something that's hardwood, something that's not so shitty.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, so I had, I didn't know the answer to that question when I asked myself that and I was thinking through one room at a time and I was like, oh my God, do I still have, like I claim to be all like, hmm, I care so much about durability and these items. And I'm like, God, do I have any left? And I had some MDF as recently as about four years ago, but now I can say there's nothing in my house that is made of sort of those materials anymore.
00:36:01
Speaker
So I understand the point you're making about repairability and long-term sustainability, and it's a good point. And I think it's things that we should all contend with, but I also don't want to have that conversation without acknowledging that if everybody on the planet switched to hardwood furniture, we would have no more trees tomorrow.
00:36:20
Speaker
So again, it's an issue of scale. Correct. How sustainable is it at scale with eight and a half billion people or whatever. And can you afford it? Can you afford it? That's one thread that I see is like, people are, this is a financial investment to fix
Summary and Lifecycle Consideration
00:36:36
Speaker
something. This is what people do. Absolutely.
00:36:39
Speaker
They can't afford to, you know, they can't afford the repair. Do you guys, I was wondering, do you guys offer repairs on any of the pieces that you do for your client? I, any piece I ever make, I will guarantee as long as I am alive, I will fix it for you without charging you anything. I said the same exact thing. And I've had one person come back for a repair and I did it with joy.
00:37:02
Speaker
And it does two things simultaneously. Number one, it puts customers at ease and it makes them really understand and believe that you are making the best object that you can. Yeah. I love that thumbs up on the screen. Uh, but also it enables you or forces you as the maker to make the best object that you can, because you're incentivized not to make a thing that will break. Yeah.
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah, but it also it makes you appreciate the client because you know that they truly appreciate your work as opposed to something that they would be willing to throw away. And so yeah, it's fine. I'll just get another one. Yeah.
00:37:38
Speaker
So, so another problem besides like using materials that, you know, you know, will not endure like particle board or something like that, you know, that's, and we, you know, not, not to come down on it, like, as we did say, it's like, there's, there's a privilege component to that. Do you have the resources, right? And I think we all start with really cheap furniture when we don't have much money. And then we, you know, as we, as we have more dollars, we can, you know, change into these more durable hardwoods and such, but
00:38:08
Speaker
One of the things I've been struggling with a lot lately about durability and how it lasts the time and the environment is plastics and epoxy.
00:38:20
Speaker
Love this. I love this topic so much. Oh my God. I have like a stomachache thinking about what to do about it. Because as a scientist, all I read are article after article every week how microplastics are in all of us now. Nobody doesn't have it. And they checked placenta samples last week. A hundred percent of them had microplastics in them.
00:38:45
Speaker
And I'm like sick to my stomach about the whole, you know, plastic thing, you know, polluting the environment. It's already too late. It's already everywhere. And epoxy, people like to say, well, it's not a plastic. They say it's not a plastic because it's not thermo labile, but it pretty much is a plastic. And so how do I feel about using epoxy and furniture? Where does that epoxy go? And when I sand it, how many millions and billions of tiny plastic particles am I putting in my shop?
00:39:15
Speaker
Yes, I'm gonna piss off a lot of people with my stance, but I don't care. Like, I actually, you know, yeah, I have the same thought epoxy makes wood on recyclable. I don't think that I don't I try not to use it. I understand there are some scenarios in which like, if you're trying to, you know, fill a knot or crack or something, like maybe that's okay, you can cut around it. I cannot stand
00:39:40
Speaker
People who make epoxy their art because it is actively pouring so much of this and like I feel like ruining materials This is a very biased opinion, of course and just making this your entire business to put something that's like not Faith out there and it makes me really upset when I see it. I don't I don't localize this to them obviously, but I will not purchase anything from that
00:40:09
Speaker
All right, go ahead, Eric. Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say same. It's a really difficult thing to contend with because it's so ubiquitous in the woodworking world now. And it does realistically, like from a functional shop standpoint, it has real value. But from a long-term standpoint, it's a thing where as an individual, you can choose to sacrifice that. And I mean, honestly, most,
00:40:38
Speaker
commercial shops don't use epoxy because it's too much of a hassle, right? You can mix the wrong ratio and then you've completely fucked what you're trying to do. Um, but you also like, you gotta.
00:40:53
Speaker
understand and acknowledge the usefulness of it, because if it wasn't useful, people wouldn't buy it. They, people wouldn't employ it. So I, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, we can choose not to use it as individuals, but until we come up with a better alternative, that's easily accessible for people, the problem's not going to go away. Okay. So is it a trend? Is it like a.
00:41:16
Speaker
fatter. No, no. It's both epoxy pours in furniture and on Instagram is absolutely a trend. But using epoxy on say boats as functional finishes and sealants, that's not going away unless we like find a better solution.
00:41:34
Speaker
All right, so let me push back on the whole epoxy use thing. So first of all, someone would say, well, why is it unsafe, right? Well, we're not exactly sure what effect these microplastics have in our body. We've just realized recently that they're all over our organs and in many people's tissue.
00:41:53
Speaker
when we look. So we don't know yet if it's going to be like a doomsday scenario down there or if it's just going to be like slight toxicity. All right. So the biology is not quite fleshed out. So I want to preface by saying that. But then someone might say, okay, well, you're not going to use epoxy. You're not going to use like two milliliters of epoxy, but you're going to get takeout that's in plastic containers.
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah, the amount of plastic in your takeout might be more than you use epoxy in like five months, you know, or your Tupperware, you know, so it's like, are you being penny wise and pound foolish, you know, you're like avoiding it in your work, which might involve a tiny amount of epoxy, but you head and you go get takeout, it's like 12 plastic containers cooking your Teflon, you know, cookware, right?
00:42:40
Speaker
which I don't, by the way, cast iron all the way. But yeah, by the way, back to your original question, that's the best toaster on the planet is a cast iron skillet, but I digress. Good point. All right. So yeah, so I struggle with epoxy use and micro I've been trying to minimize it. It does have a great application. What about 3d printing? No, it might do it for me. Don't do it. Do you do you think those are emotionally durable objects? Or are they more
00:43:10
Speaker
This is an interesting topic because I really don't love 3D printing. One, for this reason, two, I just think they look like shit most of the time. But my thesis that Jonathan advised me on the main culmination project was something that was 3D printed, but it was 3D printed specifically to create emotional attachment because it was so unique that it could not be replicated. Aceful graging.
00:43:37
Speaker
Well, I guess I'm a little bit of a hypocrite when I say that. Yeah, I think we're all hypocrites, but I do like to point it out.
00:43:46
Speaker
But of course we're hypocrites, like we're human. To be human is to be hypocritical and work both sides of the coin. That is just how it goes. I don't know, I don't, I'm not contended with 3D printing as an emotionally durable thought. So I don't know that I have an opinion on it, but I think at least right now, as the technology stands, it has a very distinct look and you can tell when something's been 3D printed and it immediately feels
00:44:15
Speaker
uninteresting. Like it could be cool for a second. And then it's like, like a fad, I immediately lose interest and I'm over it. And so that doesn't have staying power. There's something about the material itself that I think requires involvement in the design that to keep my interest at least from my own personal perspective. I mean, it's the same argument as epoxy. Like there's a utilitarian use for it for people who are 3D printing these like holders and
00:44:43
Speaker
things that are tools. And then there's people who create 3D prints just for the sake of like wine to 3D print something. And I hate saying this because I feel like we try to encourage creativity and we try to encourage like, you know, making something and getting like, just getting that out there. So it does, there is a little bit of friction when you think about, you know, is this actually good? Like you're putting your creativity out there versus like, is this going to be sustainable?
00:45:10
Speaker
So I just wanna say in regards to that, woodworking was not a thing until 100 years ago, it was carpentry. We were living in the age of the carpenter and it was all functional until we had materials that were easier to make functional objects and cheaper to make functional objects out of. So I don't know that we can put the blame on functionality
00:45:36
Speaker
Uh, maybe the economics of the situation more, but I don't, I don't want to say that like, if this thing was made out of wood, it would be better because for the whole history of humanity, that's what we were doing. And we treated them as throw away objects kind of in the same way, but less than because they were just harder to make. Cool. Yeah.
00:46:01
Speaker
Um, okay. So we've talked about this for a while. There's, there's like so much we could dive into on this topic. It like, it ranges across very large fields of design, woodworking, art, crafts, people, everything.
Introduction to 'Crappy Hour'
00:46:15
Speaker
But I'm glad that we have this discussion, like overall.
00:46:18
Speaker
I think there's something really important about emotionally durable design that artists and craftspeople should think about when they're putting objects into the world. Like, I feel like I say this all the time. There's so much bad stuff in the world. I don't want to contribute to that. If I'm putting something out there, I want it to be, you know, significant to someone, whether or not that's me or the consumer, or customer.
00:46:43
Speaker
I think, yeah, I just want to be a little bit more cognizant of what you're putting out there and how can age gracefully. Just think about its life. Because once it's out of your hands, a lot of the time, makers don't really think about it anymore. They're like, I'm done with it. Let's move on. But think about the life of your product and your objects and your piece of furniture. But yeah, if you guys are interested in learning more about emotionally durable design, Jonathan Chapman, just Google him, YouTube.
00:47:12
Speaker
There's lots of great talks. He is a quirky British man and love him. He's a very good friend of mine. So yeah. Something about a horse in there. I don't really know. What?
00:47:26
Speaker
All right. Well with that, Mary, thank you so much for leading us into this topic and suggesting this topic. I loved thinking about this and I know, and I'm not just giving lip service to like end an episode. Oh, say all the summary type things. Like I will be thinking about this a lot.
00:47:43
Speaker
for probably the rest of my life, every decision I make. What would I choose? How much I use plastic and what I make? Is it emotionally durable? When I buy things, I'll probably be thinking about it. So this topic has, I think, changed me permanently. It's something I already was thinking about. But to give it a framework and have a name for it, emotionally durable design, I think only cemented it further. So that was awesome.
00:48:07
Speaker
Now we're going to move on to our next segment today, which is not the slide. We're going to shift it up a little bit. This was my wife's idea to have a segment, not happy hour, but crappy hour, where we just decide that, you know,
00:48:27
Speaker
Let's complain about something. You know, maybe too often we talk about what's going great in our lives. Like sometimes you just got to complain. So who wants to go first for crappy art? And by the way, we haven't discussed what each other's going to say. So it's as much of a surprise for you listener as it is for us.
Hosts Share Personal Grievances
00:48:44
Speaker
Uh, I'll go. And I just want to say, I think that we might be unique as the only three people who constantly talk about how wonderful our lives are all the time and don't complain about things. I'd love to complain.
00:48:58
Speaker
But that being said, here's what I'll say in direct opposition to the entire 45 minute conversation we just had. Fuck would.
00:49:07
Speaker
This wood sucks. It's a bullshit material. The last few projects I've made, nothing has remained flat. The temperature swings and humidity swings, the tension in the trees that I've cut up and re-sawn and flattened up and then they just immediately twist. I'm fucking over it and I'm ready to go back to MDF and epoxy and just have shit stay flat.
00:49:33
Speaker
Well, Eric is now going to become just a MDF and... I'm going to become an epoxy artist, yeah. Eric, we're going to erase you. It was maybe ocean waves to the day I died. Can we make that a sound clip? God damn right. Next episode, it's a sound clip. All right, Mary, go for it. What do you got?
00:49:57
Speaker
Uh, mine's not woodworking related. Um, but I just, I'm great at complaining. Uh, I took this, I took this week off from work because I was like, man, I just want to have a great week of work bench con. It's also my birthday. When I like celebrated hang with my friends and family have not been able to do that, have had to work. Unfortunately, even though it's on the calendar, but
00:50:22
Speaker
There's I feel I've become the person that I say that I tell all these younger folks not to be. I hate it. I really, really hate it. And it's I'm in this weird position because it's really important for me to have a job that I'm like motivated and inspired by and like love. And I don't do well when it's just a job and it's just something to get me through the day. Like that was my last job and I suffered mentally from it.
00:50:46
Speaker
But it's also swinging too much in the other direction now. I care a little too much and that's starting to affect me and I need to learn how to balance and that doesn't really come easily when I'm motivated because I throw all of myself into it, whether it's a hobby or an interest or a job. I'm kind of in a weird situation in which I can recognize the signs of burnout and I'm not there yet.
00:51:12
Speaker
If I were looking at a younger person in the same scenario, I'd be like, you really got to separate your life and your work. It is starting to become a little too blurred.
00:51:25
Speaker
Oh, that sucks. That's pretty crappy. All right. For me. Yeah. Yeah. I was irate. Let's just start with I was irate and my wife was like, giving me that look like don't make a scene. Don't make a scene. Uh, yeah. Yeah. That happened. So me, uh, so my, my new French bulldog, uh, puppy 10, 11 months recently got spayed. Okay. And we go to the vet and, uh, we pick her up after they did it, you know, uh,
00:51:55
Speaker
We pick her up at the vet and they say, while we were doing the surgery and had her intubated, we noticed that in her throat, her tonsil was swollen. So she has tonsillitis, my dog and my daughter. Both of them have tonsillitis this week. I hope they're not related because that would be awkward.
00:52:18
Speaker
So that's fine. Like, oh, great. Yeah, you notice, okay, so we'll give you some antibiotic. And then we also sent it out for culture. And that's where the needle went off the record. And because if you look at the bill, sending it off for culture cost me $300.
00:52:35
Speaker
And I used to culture bacteria in the lab. I did culture all the time. So there's two things I know about culturing shit out of your throat. Number one, only one out of like a hundred or even a thousand microorganisms that live in your body grow on the plates in the culture lab. So first of all, you're looking for a needle in the haystack. And whatever grows out doesn't necessarily mean it was the pathogen anyway.
00:52:58
Speaker
So you're not really getting much information. And then they say, oh, we'll get the results in three or four days. But for now, we're just going to give the antibiotic. So basically, if they give the antibiotic,
00:53:09
Speaker
The culture result has no bearing on the course of treatment. They give the antibiotic. If the dog gets better, it was clearly bacterial. If the dog doesn't get better, it was clearly viral. The proof is in the pudding here. Wait five days. The dog's either going to get better or not from the antibiotic. We don't need a $300 culture that A, doesn't identify the organism necessarily. B, doesn't impact the course of treatment.
00:53:34
Speaker
And I was so angry that they did it and charged me and didn't ask me because I would have said hell to the note. And my daughter's making the flush. She's going like this, like my $300 just got flushed down the toilet because she knows I was hungry. And I was like turning red a little bit and being like, oh, thank you so much for such a, and my daughter's like, like,
00:53:55
Speaker
like to needle me it was just I was so angry anyway Paul being your client is he knows so much oh my god he would he would be the best until he's the worst there's no image
00:54:12
Speaker
And to prove my point to my wife, I went on PubMed and I found a paper that said, culturing microorganisms out of the throat has no bearing on the treatment of it and it should be eradicated. That was, or they shouldn't do it anymore because it's costing the people way too much. It's costing the health too much money. And I texted her that article and she's like, yeah, but you made a C.
00:54:37
Speaker
I was so pissed for days. Anyway, the vet did a beautiful job on her surgery.
Wrap Up and Closing Remarks
00:54:42
Speaker
I was really worried you were going to say that they messed up the surgery like cat and it's like, oh no. They did the most amazing job. It was as if she hadn't had surgery. She bounced back the next day. So I have to give them a huge thanks. You get 300 extra of my dollars for nothing, but you did a wonderful job.
00:55:02
Speaker
Uh, I would like to amend my answer. I'm okay with what again fuck healthcare in the United States, even healthcare. All of it's fucked and I hate everybody. All right. But let's not even touch that. Okay.
00:55:17
Speaker
So let's move on from crappy hour to thank our patrons that have joined since the last episode. So that is Steve, Vilman, Matt Mars, Victor Toll, BadMuttX, I don't know what the hell Matt. BadMuteX and Nate. So we appreciate you supporting us very much. And as we've mentioned before, if you are a patron of ours at the highest level,
00:55:44
Speaker
you can ask questions and we'll answer it. So actually today, what we're going to do in the after show is answer the following question who was submitted by a patron of ours. And that question is about perfectionism. Is perfectionism
00:56:02
Speaker
as it applies, I assume, to woodworking. Is it particularly bad? Can it be good? And how do you rationalize it in between? Where do we fall on perfectionism? That's what we'll be answering in the after show today. I know all three of us are probably already chomping at the bit to say something about. I could see Eric, like his lips are like quivering. Nice, nice light subject to cover in the after show.
00:56:28
Speaker
All right. So with that, we're going to wrap this up. We're at the 56 minute mark. Again, I want to thank you all for listening. I hope we spend a lot of time thinking about how to make this valuable for you. And I hope you ask yourself the same questions we're asking ourselves. I think you are, because everyone who's given me feedback says that
00:56:49
Speaker
I find myself answering along with you and I want to join the conversation so bad. And that's what we want. Like, we want to have this conversation. And so I hope, you know, we can spread some of that good juju to you and you ask yourself the questions about emotionally durable design after today's episode. So with that, if you'd like to leave us feedback, you know where to find us on Instagram. Otherwise, we will see you in the after show, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Deuces, friends.