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The Sopranos Season 2 (And a little Season 3 talk)
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Doug took a short hiatus while he was recovering from surgery but The Juice is back baby! Just make sure it's the kind with shum pulp. Meg comes back to check in on our favorite dysfunctional mob family and address important questions such as "Was that psychic Paulie visited legit?" and "Is Janice the greatest character of all time?"
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Transcript
Introduction of Meg Williams and 'The Sopranos' Theme
00:00:07
Speaker
you
00:00:31
Speaker
All right. We're here on
Meg's Twitter Success and 'The Sopranos' Fandom
00:00:33
Speaker
These Guys Got Juice again with Meg Williams talking more Sopranos. People have been demanding. People coming up to me on the street saying, when when are you going to get more Sopranos talk? It's like, you guys got to wait.
00:00:48
Speaker
I am constantly surprised by the enthusiasm and interest in my tweets about The Sopranos considering its age, but everyone who loves it, loves it and seems to enjoy a rewatch or, you know, living vicariously through other people rewatching and chatting as much as anyone else. And I totally see why now having finished season two and sort of moving into season three.
00:01:08
Speaker
Yeah, I always love
Tony Soprano's Power Dynamics and Family Relations
00:01:09
Speaker
seeing people when I'm seeing someone post through one of my favorite shows. It is fun. And it'll also inspire a rewatch often where I'll be like, you know what? I do love that show. Maybe I should watch, too. And I've i've been seeing that happen with with mutual. So that that that's cool.
00:01:24
Speaker
um But yeah, let's let's get into it. So yeah. You know, we left off of season one all the stuff that was going on with with with Tony and his uncle and his mom. ah He's kind of this.
00:01:38
Speaker
ah He was the de facto boss already. But like now he's like fully consolidating power. Like, you know, his uncle has has has been arrested. and um see It's interesting that I mean, I'm sure it's partly strategic where he has like taken out anyone in his uncle's camp who can make moves on him. But he's also still allotting his uncle like, you know, ah some revenue streams, whether that's just for appearance. But there's also seems to be instances where
00:02:13
Speaker
like he does still, that is his uncle. He loves him because there is there's like the episode when he like falls in the shower and like Tony like straight up carries him. Like that's like a ah very gentle thing. Yeah, it's unfortunately tender to, you know, cradle him in his arms. And it's so interesting as a viewer understand like Junior actively ordered the hit on Tony.
00:02:36
Speaker
Livia sort of passively suggested it, was aware of it. And yet, you know, the, the, Less forgivable sin is from Livia, perhaps because the motherly role is different than the uncle role. And, you know, it's sort of in the world of the mafia. It's more understandable to to order a hit on someone. But I was surprised
Bobby Baccalieri's Unique Role in 'The Sopranos'
00:02:53
Speaker
by how easily Tony seems to forgive Junior and how quickly the tenderness returns to their relationship.
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, it it's because he'll still meet at first. Initially, I thought like, oh, he's only going to meet or or send messages to his uncle through through Bobby, which I love ah his hit his introduction. He's like very awkward when we first meet Bobby, like would he's just like kind of like almost congratulating Tony's like to the victor goes the sport. Like he just seems like almost out of place in this world. And he's just like a a jolly guy, kind of.
00:03:27
Speaker
I love Bobby. He truly is. You know, you come to me as a friend in Papa's Orchard, whom I picked apples with. I just adore him. He is so gentle and kind. He is constantly taking the brunt of everyone's rage in the form of fat jokes, too, which is horrible, you know. um But they're coming from like Tony and other people who just constantly I feel like every time he walks on stream, he's getting like punched in the face with, you know, some horrible insult about his looks. And yet he is just like,
00:03:54
Speaker
Chipper, kind. He really seems so different from a disposition perspective than anyone else we've seen on the show. I just I adore him. He's been like one of the great treats of watching season two.
00:04:05
Speaker
Because he never lashes. He just takes it and like you like he mutters something under his breath when he's like, ah look who's talking about it. Because it's like so hypocritical that any of them are criticizing anyone's body that they that they're going to go after Bobby.
00:04:21
Speaker
the other like the Polly's, the Sylvia's, the Chris's of the world, it seems like any sort of slight is interpreted as like a huge side of disrespect and it can devolve into an argument very quickly.
00:04:32
Speaker
But Bobby is just constantly getting shit on and yet he just takes it, you know, um and it does doesn't even seem at first I thought, Well, he's really, really smart. He's playing this this long game where he's going to put up with this and, um you know, work himself into Tony's camp.
00:04:46
Speaker
But I think as the season goes on, you realize Bobby actually isn't playing some sort of long game to make some sort of grand chess move in the mafia. He just is that kind of person where things roll off of him more easily and he doesn't, you know, you know, feel the need to constantly be respected.
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, I don't it doesn't feel like he has like greater ambitions in terms of moving up in the ring. I mean, he he alludes to like the junior was kind of like a science that like he didn't choose that posting, but that's who he his boss. So he's going to do what junior says.
00:05:19
Speaker
and And there's even the moment later in the season where we're where Bobby's just like, I'm in awe of you. like He's like he's like so like appreciating the moves juniors making like that he could like it that even though he's not playing the game actively.
00:05:33
Speaker
Exactly. He's just happy to sit back and watch. And I know, obviously, and I'm sure we'll talk about Chris this season. He's sort of like the the character through which the audience is doing like extreme ambition in terms of wanting to move up the ladder. But even with the Paulies and the Silvios, you get the sense that there is um a sort of pride in their station.
00:05:51
Speaker
And Bobby just seems like a character who is not driven by pride whatsoever. He is so earnest in that those moments of I'm in awe of you, Junior, and just... willing and happy to be someone's goon yeah you love you love to see it i mean it it makes you wonder like yeah if maybe i and whether that's like through nurture he he just had like a better home life or something like me it could tony have ended up like that even if he if even if ending up in this life was inevitable you don't have to be like the tonys and everyone else in it like that bobby shows that alternative
00:06:26
Speaker
He's proof
Janice Soprano's Manipulative Nature
00:06:27
Speaker
of the sort of gentle giant stereotype. He's the one gentle giant in the Santa. So just loved meeting him. um Of course, in terms of other characters who I loved meeting in season two, we must talk about my princess, Janice Soprano, the queen.
00:06:41
Speaker
I love Janice and it's I guess it's not surprising that there's like misogyny in the Sopranos fan base because I've seen people online be like she's one of the worst characters ever. it likes to say he it in way ah well I mean she's not a good none of these people are good people. But term like fun characters who I like watching it. It's like a great per performance. it's Like she's um mean like she takes the best like manipulating parts of her mother.
00:07:10
Speaker
But there's like more to it. Like she's not just like a one for one copy of her mom, even if she like kind of fulfills that role. She is sort of occupying that space that Bobby does where there's no other character like her. You know, she's completely unique to the world of Sopranos. I really felt that, ah you know, in season one, I wasn't, I didn't know she existed, of course, so i wasn't feeling like anything was missing.
00:07:33
Speaker
But now I really can't imagine the show without her. She's so different from the other women in the world in a really refreshing way. and I love Karm, I love Meadow, I love, um you know, Rosalie Aprile, but she is just so different.
00:07:46
Speaker
And I think the way that she operates, um she's so funny. The lack of self-awareness. I've never begged a day in my life. ah I just like getting to see a woman get down and dirty, too, you know, and in a completely different way. But and whenever I see people talk about her being one of the worst characters on The Sopranos, it shocks me as well.
00:08:06
Speaker
um She's just a grifter, too, like everyone else. She's hustling. She's ambitious. She just has different ways of going about it. I mean, it's simply just because she's a a woman. i think that It's like, oh, well, that not it's it's not allowed the digit for her to do it.
00:08:20
Speaker
I mean, because she's like self-possessed in a way where, you know, she moved out west and, you know, she had this whole like hip hippie ah lifestyle. But she will accept the more traditional thing like we see in the relationship with.
00:08:37
Speaker
I mean, well yeah we got to talk about a piece of shit, Rich, you know, real. But like, i it yes, there is the the phenomenon where people like kind of slide back into relationships decades later where it's like, yeah, that that even if you are in completely different places, you can just like an old flame. They get it just on the pun scene that I can just like trigger everything back at how it was. But I think there is an and like.
00:09:05
Speaker
she He seems like the kind of opposite person that she Janice now would be into. But we also get the line later from her where she's like, I've worked enough jobs to know that I don't want to work again. Again, like that, that you know, the ah it's like, yeah, if why would if this, that that like you said, she's a grifter like everyone else. And she sees that Richie can be her it and to just, get you know, have that lifestyle.
00:09:31
Speaker
And I was always looking out for Janice Soprano. She's number one. And so when things weren't working out in New Jersey because Livia was, you know, blocking her game, you know, 20 years ago because Tony was obviously going to be the king here. She had no place in the mob. Then she left. She went out west. She decided to grift out there and sow her oats.
00:09:48
Speaker
But when she sniffed the opportunity with Livia being in the hospital and being close to death, she came back, she latched onto Richie. And I just think there is such beauty in the subtlety of her manipulations and her willingness to sort of morph herself and whoever she needs to be so that she can benefit and sort of feed that desire. Like you said, and she doesn't want to work again. She worked enough jobs and she's always looking for the best position for Janice.
00:10:12
Speaker
And like we say, men are constantly doing that on The Sopranos 2. She's just doing it different ways. it ah This is a random ah ah call, up but did you ever watch the show ah Justified?
00:10:25
Speaker
I haven't now. OK, well, one Goggins character in that reminds me of Janice of where he'll just kind of morph from season to season of like he starts off as one thing and then then he becomes like an evangelizing, like God loving. per he he heals you He just keeps shifting and characters call him like, hey, weren't you like a preacher yesterday? You know, like that he'll just like turn it on a diet. So like Janice is fully willing, like you said, to just become whatever she wants to be.
Richie April: A Simple Yet Effective Villain
00:10:50
Speaker
ah she She needs to become in order to get her bag.
00:10:53
Speaker
And I think that's why it's so entertaining to watch here, because um even characters who are willing to, like, sacrifice morals as, you know, quote unquote, good people would view morality in terms of, like, don't kill people, you know, that the mob goes against.
00:11:05
Speaker
There's still all these codes and regulations that you have to fall in line with in terms of the mob. But Janice truly has, like, no codes or regulations for herself. Anything can be shifted at any point in time. so long as She has to do herself, and she's fine with everything.
00:11:19
Speaker
But I first benefit Janice is what matters. So um I just love that. And of course, getting to Richie April, Janice is the baddest bitch who ever lived for finally putting that motherfucker down as I wanted from the second he walked on screen.
00:11:36
Speaker
He's he's a great villain in the sense how simple he is like there's nothing more complex to like we get other villains later in this in the season. We'll talk about some of the other or like maybe, you know, even if they're vile, people are motivated by multiple things like Rich Richie ritchie is simple, just a little angry man. There's like nothing else to him.
00:11:58
Speaker
No, and there's no escalation either. I mean, right now, I'm only halfway through season three. So I obviously there are more villains to come. But the most direct comparison is Ralphie in season three.
00:12:09
Speaker
He's also an angry little man, a villain. But like you said, Ralphie has sort of complicated motivations, complicated things going in his brain. And there's also an escalation from Ralphie where, you know, it seems like we have a lot of like repression until we get to him murdering Tracy. Yeah.
00:12:28
Speaker
Richie is on screen episode one and paralyzes Beansy. You know, his ver he comes out the gate like angry as hell. And it's like just, yeah, ready to cripple someone. It's zero to 100 with Richie. Like we're just we're right there. We understand who Richie is. He is enraged at all times.
00:12:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's great. But and then it's also that no, no one. I mean, yeah, Janice is going along with it because that that's her grift. But no one likes him to the point of like, even when he's like going to make a move on Tony at the end of the season.
00:12:59
Speaker
Junior's like, I'm going with Tony because he couldn't he couldn't stop. No one will will go along with Richie on this because he sucks. Exactly. that People recognize the angry little chihuahua in him and they just like cannot vibe with it. Even if getting rid of Tony might put other people in better positions because it is suggested by Richie because Richie's at the helm. It's just such a no. It's like we'll have to answer to that guy. I don't know. because well like Like, yeah, Tony's a temperamental person, but Richie will would literally just like kill you for no reason.
00:13:31
Speaker
And from a ah villain perspective, like Ralphie seems like a greater threat, even though he is less on the surface of angry because he does have connections and sway within the mob. And he's actually very successful as an earner. And he doesn't need to resort to like extreme violence to do well as an earner.
00:13:48
Speaker
Whereas Richie, you know, when you see him move immediately to violence, when you see the way that other characters talk about him, you understand that everyone knows Richie like has a screw loose from day one. Right. Like, there's there's just no reigning that. it Like, there's no way that that would be, like, a sustainable business model. Like, you like you said, that like, Ralphie's, like, ah an actual ah dependable earner, but Richie seems pretty expendable. Like, what is he bringing to the table that no one else can do? Like, he can't even...
00:14:16
Speaker
bide his time on simple things when like he keeps being told by toy like don't sell coke on the garbage routes and it's like even if he needs that money in our air is planning to maybe make a move against to like it's like dude just like don't play all your cards immediately like just like bide your time Yeah, he's ah just insane. And I love, too, the moment in season two where there I think the episode might be named after this after, actually, forgive me if I'm wrong, but the jacket.
00:14:48
Speaker
um Yeah. But he's the same as gangster. And he thinks, like, yeah oh, my God, that was such a funny episode. I know we talked previously about how unintentionally or actually intentionally funny The Sopranos is. i just think I went into it not expecting it to be so funny. Yeah.
00:15:03
Speaker
So it makes me laugh in surprising ways. And that entire thread of like, I got you that jacket. You're to wear that jacket was so funny to me. Like that. That's one of the final like straws to like yeah cave he gave away my jacket.
00:15:19
Speaker
That's the game is jacket that everyone cares about. Yeah. It's such a small man problem to have. is It was a beautiful thing to like finally push Richie over the edge. I mean, it's yeah, it just speaks to his whole impotence of of everything. Like and ah we could go straight to like his his demise of like that.
00:15:37
Speaker
The moment that he strikes ah Janice is is striving. We've seen violence against women in this in the in this show. And he even says earlier, Chris, when he's like, hey, I'm old school. You give her your last name, then you can do whatever want.
00:15:52
Speaker
He's engaged Janice. He hasn't married her yet. So he's breaking his own little code there. And not that it's okay in any context to like hit your spouse, but but they like he's not even abiding by his own bullshit.
00:16:04
Speaker
No, of course not. Exactly. He's violating his own rules. And of course, you know, the way that he, I found that moment of hitting Janice just, you know, It's implorable. The violence against women in the show is hard for me to watch. I find it really upsetting and triggering a lot of the times. But that wasn't that I was more easily soothed by because of the instant satisfaction I received.
00:16:24
Speaker
I don't even know if Janice says anything, actually. Does she immediately? on you you just She just kind of like clocks it. And then you see her walk off screen, comes back, has a gun. with some smart ass comment too of something like are you gonna cry now and you know then she just comes right back and blows his brains out and is a beautiful just such excellent shot Freud and living through that moment and of course it makes you happy to see him get taken down by Janice you know I expected him to die i think in part because I'm tweeting about the show and I had tweeted something like I can't wait until Richie April goes down like I literally
Chris's Hollywood Ambitions and Mafia Life Conflict
00:17:01
Speaker
can't wait and people were like you're gonna
00:17:02
Speaker
love it so I knew he was going to die at some point but I really expected it to be via Tony you know we hadn't really seen a death that wasn't within the world of the mob so it was completely unexpected to me and all the more satisfying because of the unexpected nature Yeah, it's a smart subversion because you see, like, even though there's barely an escalate, like you see, you know that Richie wants to make this move. He goes to Junior. That's not going to pan out. You're like, oh, so he's just going to do this on on his own.
00:17:31
Speaker
Tony knows about it. is goingnna He even tells Silvio to take care of it. So you expect that that's how that's going to play out. So to have Janice out of left field be the one who, like, the like just takes Richie off the board is so satisfying.
00:17:45
Speaker
So good for Janice as a character, too, who, again, just always look out for Janice Soprano and won't take it for even one second. So that was wonderful. Yeah. Love that. ah Let's let's talk about Chris, because first season you were like worst character ever. I hate this guy. i mean, he's he sucks. He's of the horror guy. He's the loser.
00:18:05
Speaker
i'm i I'm not going to try and change your opinion on that, but I do think he starts to have some interesting ah plot threads like here ah in terms of there being like he is he is an angry loser like a lot of the men in the show. But the fact that his aspirations are like like he wants to.
00:18:26
Speaker
make movies and like be in Hollywood, even though, you know, we've seen from his attempts at writing that, you know, he's probably not good at that, but that still that he has there's something in there that that that like you're like, oh, if this had been nurtured in any other world that like how could he have turned out differently?
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I still strongly dislike Chris. I don't know why he does it for so many people. I know he does it for you. You have an affection for him. I can't say that I have any affection for him. But I am very interested in his plot line in season two. and Do you watch, did you watch Barry on HBO?
00:19:01
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Love Barry. Well, I really wondered if there was inspiration um from the episode where Chris takes the acting class and he has that moment where he's doing the scene with Rebel Without a Cause and he acts so beautifully and produces real tears. And it's like the one moment where he really like knocks it out of the park in terms of acting. And it it really reminded me of the season finale of season one of Barry, where Barry is able to deliver that line of you know ma Because he had just killed his friend and then he has to do like Shakespeare or whatever. And he like where pulled it out of the bag and really like he delivered something. And Chris has that moment, too. And I get what you mean in terms of wondering, like if the creative impulsion had been nurtured, if Chris had been raised in a different world, could he have actually made it in this way? Because he gets along well in with.
00:19:51
Speaker
his cousin's fiance and was John Favreau in that episode. I think it's called D girl. Yeah. i mean, he gets along well with them to a point like he he's getting like violently high with with Favreau and like pulling out the gun like he's probably you get said like this is not a sustainable relationship or even with, you know, his cousin's girl. girl Like none of that is sustainable with the way that Chris actually is.
00:20:18
Speaker
Although I do understand his fear of like them taking his story, um ah horrific story, too. Like they're like laughing when you tell it like this is about a guy who like maimed a the trans woman. Like you're like, it's that thing where like you're rewatching a show from the 90s or 2000s. And then there's just like the most violent transphobia you've ever experienced in your life. You know, punching in the fist.
00:20:41
Speaker
horrible but I mean at that moment like in terms of getting along with Savo and his cousin's fiance certainly it's to a point because he has that like dangerous anger inside of him that's sort of like knocking at the cages scaring them but you get the sense that like he does have a mind and a like a sort of instinct for Hollywood for making things for like the schmoozing and if he had eliminated this violent angry part of him maybe things could have worked out differently for Chris Yeah, because what what is the mafia if not a business of connection of like people smoozing and bullshitting each other? I mean, there's the violence violence on top of it, you know, and all the other lists activity. But you take that away is there's there's definitely some carryover skills there, especially on the like production end.
00:21:28
Speaker
And I also I also love that Janine Garofalo like takes his note about like, you know, he gives her like a like, know, like an Italian like slur to say. She's like, oh, yeah, like that.
00:21:39
Speaker
Yeah, I'm going to take that. Of course, you know, then like watching this, it's sort of an episode that says like what could have been, but what will never be. Because at the end of the season, we finally shut the door completely on that style of living for Chris. There's no more like, I'm there, right? He just deletes everything. And then that, well into season three now for me, it's never come up again. I i think the dream is dead. And Chris is officially now a made man. He is completely soul to soul to the mafia.
00:22:08
Speaker
ah Yeah. Speaking of his soul, ah the most the another most like, again, I don't want to give the impression that I like love, love Chris. I just think that like interesting stuff happens to it around him because i think. Yeah.
00:22:21
Speaker
When he theyre near assassination, you know. Yeah. Like when his near death experience, when when, you you know, his his goons deciding, which also speaks to like.
00:22:32
Speaker
how insane and bullshitty this whole world is. ah These two guys, you know, are, yeah no one has any real loyalty teach to each other. Like they work for Chris, but they, they're not satisfied with that station. So they're like, Oh, maybe we could get in good with Richie, you know, by, by whacking Chris. it's like, why would you think that would be ah me like, like Chris isn't made at that point when he's still the nephew of the boss. And and you're like,
00:22:59
Speaker
Why Richie? Why is Richie the one that you want to like, please... Matt and Sean are the gooniest of goons who have ever been on this show. Not just stupid for attempting to betray Chris.
00:23:12
Speaker
Stupid, secondly, for attempting to betray Chris for Richie April. Stupid, thirdly, for attempting to betray Chris for Richie April on no signs whatsoever from Richie April that that would be a desirable outcome. He asked for none of that. Like, I mean, Richie sucks, but to his credit, he's not that that dumb. where He's, like, going to make a move for Chris for no reason.
00:23:34
Speaker
Why would he want these two goons in his back pocket anyways? They're clearly worthless. So that was just a, I mean, it was another really big shocker at the end of the episode. I couldn't believe they actually did that. And then I did enjoy the episode where Chris has the near-death experience immensely because of his
Mystical Elements and Cognitive Dissonance in 'The Sopranos'
00:23:51
Speaker
impact on Polly, which is one of the funniest storylines. Yeah.
00:23:55
Speaker
It's a funny storyline. ah But do what do you make of his visit to the psychic? Because the psychic is recounting things that kind of there would not be any way like the reference to the poison oak on the Mikey hit and some of the other like ah people that he's killed. Like there's kind of no way that he would be able to know that like in any like real way. They exist in Sopranos world at the very least, right? You know, it's definitely accessing them.
00:24:26
Speaker
i mean, that didn't shock me because I think we are sort of so on the nose with um dreams and dream interpretation that I think the Sopranos writers and directors sort of embrace the idea of like,
00:24:40
Speaker
there are things going on in the world that we can't understand or explain, or, you know, there's like a something, something of it all. If not like a clear answer of like, there's a God, there's another side, goes to real. There's definitely some sort of like...
00:24:53
Speaker
spookiness sometimes, you know, and I really enjoyed that. I think it's something it's interesting to watch Pauly try to reckon with it, you know, and it's interesting to understand his logic, too, when he goes to the priest at his church and is like, I've been giving you guys money nonstop. You're supposed to be looking out for my soul. Like that he can just buy his way into heaven, like literally a thing where the church had like a whole era where they had to revamp because they were like, no, you can't do that.
00:25:21
Speaker
Not just trying to buy his way to heaven, but the way that Polly views it is that he has to spend some time in purgatory. think he explains to Chris he's actually like the exact years that he's going to be spending in purgatory to make up for his sins.
00:25:35
Speaker
And so that was a ah wonderful insight into like the mind of Polly and the ways that people justify the lack of morality that they're, you know, living through and the way that you sort of soothe yourself after you're doing these he things if you do believe in an afterlife.
00:25:50
Speaker
Like he'll take 500 years in purgatory, but an eternity in hell is not something he could, fa because he's like trying to be like, it wasn't hot, right? Or yeah, it couldn't been hell. Because like that kind of that idea is like too far for it. Like the one one of them would end up there, you know, ah when when ah Tony brings up afterlife to someone else. else I think to Melfi once he's like saying like the worst of the worst goes to hell. They don't consider themselves in that. Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
Who like kill children and who get off on this shit. That's sort of like Tony's modus operandi is that people who go to hell are the ones who enjoy the murder and the killer. you're sadist, you should be a little sad sometimes about the stuff you're doing.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah. probably If you agree, if you agree, you know, for for what you've done sometimes, if you have conflicted feelings.
Tony's Internal Conflict with Pussy's Betrayal
00:26:43
Speaker
But I love understanding the cognitive dissonance that all of the characters have to justify the two worlds that they're living in. and I think Carmela is a wonderful example of that, too, in terms of being really religious, um being slightly judgmental. In fact, actually more than slightly judgmental.
00:26:59
Speaker
judgmental of, you know, non-Catholic people and the ways that they exist in the world, but then also holding space for her husband, you know, murdering people. um It's so interesting to understand the way this that they justify that to themselves.
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah, it like every everyone is a walking set of of contradictions to to varying degrees. And and in in shift shifting back to to Tony, or at least one one of his major storylines this this season, ah ah last time we talked, I brought up like but a pussy. Like, what do you make of his like a disappearance? And like, yeah, was was that kind of sus? We get or a confirmation pretty early that yes, he is a rat. He is informing.
00:27:41
Speaker
I mean... i mean You know, they make a big deal out of like ah this errand. No one has any loyalty. They won't do any. But like, what is the alternative? How am many any lives of your ah how many years of your life in prison are you expected to give away for these people? You know, they said, like, we'll take care of you.
00:27:59
Speaker
But what does that actually in terms like i'm I'm putting myself in pussy's place of like you're busted for, you know you know, dealing heroin and you're facing down like yeah a good chunk your life, if not all of it and the rest of it in prison.
00:28:13
Speaker
Like, why wouldn't you turn rat? life you are well yeah It's a horrible position to be in. And I don't think we can even understand like what we would do in that position, having not been raised in that world where loyalty is such a ah a code to the family or what have he ah But I think um I was really moved by the moment when Pussy is in the bathroom at AJ's confirmation and he's just sobbing because he is so devastated by the position that he's been put in. And I i thought that was ah really just heart-wrenching moment.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, because he had just reaffirmed to AJ, who's having the, you know, like he's AJ's confirmation sponsor and AJ's going yeah through all these doubts himself pretty hilariously, like reads, reads Nietzsche once and then becomes like ah the biggest existentialist. and Yeah.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah. Doubting oututing everything. But but, you know, who she tells him and and are before that, it's like, no, your father's like a good man. Like he's like reminding himself of all these like warm affectionate feels like they go back to like seem like their childhood friends, him and Tony. And like the fact that this is like his best friend, like Tony said in season one, like I love this man, you know, like that. that That's like his best friend that he's betraying.
00:29:32
Speaker
And it's sort of doubly devastating because he's remembering all the time that he's had with Tony and also promising AJ, you're going to have... such a good life because of your father. You know, you need to appreciate the things that your father's done. You need to know how lucky you are to have your father.
00:29:48
Speaker
Well, knowing that he, you know, Pussy's anticipating being the person who takes his father away from AJ. You know, it's just so complicated. it really made me feel for him.
00:29:59
Speaker
um But then again, in the finale, um when you get to that moment where Tony finally does realize that Pussy is wearing the wire and that he has to be taken out, what is Tony supposed to do to, you know, how do you even navigate that?
00:30:13
Speaker
Right. Because that's his life and his family, then that he's facing down the barrel of like, he's supposed to like his, his friends betrayed him. And like, not just the oath, like it's on a personal level at this point of like, you've, you've done this to me and to do the lie. Cause like he, ah he, even when he welcomes pussy back, he still is like keeping him at arm's length. And you feel like there's a sense of like,
00:30:37
Speaker
if he had maybe come to Tony, Tony would have found some way, like, you're like, yes, that's forbidden to do that. But like he's Tony wants to find some way to not do until, until he has to actually do that.
00:30:51
Speaker
He would have probably tried to find some way around that or like to use the situation to his advantage or something like, okay, we know you're four years. I'll give you things to give them or something like,
00:31:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's sort of like the Dr. Malfi therapeutic urge to like take their faces in your hands and be like, communicate, talk to each other, ah just say things. And then maybe there's a way around this. um I think there could have been discussion about like, yeah, the way that I was able to get back onto the streets is by agreeing to wear this wire. I'm telling you about it now because...
00:31:21
Speaker
I think we can do a workaround. We can feed incorrect information. This could be an opportunity to for us. But even by doing that, I guess you're already planting the seed then that there is mistrust, that there could be ah double cross on the double cross. And it's just an unwinnable situation.
00:31:36
Speaker
right it And I love like speaking to like the eeriness and weirdness of of the show. had read that besides like for the humorous satirical angle, David Chase said like he was actually inspired by by the Simpsons. But he also said another big inspiration was. t twin peaks which is kind of not surprising as like we get further into the show like you know the stuff of the ghost but then also like the dream like major revelations come through dreams in terms of like that's kind of i mean there you get the sense that to me always knew like because it was so everything went around pussy was so sus that but he just didn't want admit it to himself but then him getting food poisoning is and the implication even though he keeps blaming the indian food
00:32:22
Speaker
It seems that he got sick on seafood, you know, from Vesuvio. And then he sees a fish with Pussy's voice say, you know, that I'm in for like all these like visual metaphors going on.
00:32:38
Speaker
It's come back up in season three now because I guess big mouth bass were getting big at the time and like yeah America. It's how they have like everyone's behind each other, big mouth bass. And you're this talking fish revealing things is like a thematic item again in season three. But I thought that.
00:32:54
Speaker
That this information was revealed to Dreams was fascinating in the finale. I love that they committed to doing a finale that was like almost 50 percent Dreams. You know, we had like several really, really eerie dreams, some funny ones, too, like in the clown car with Ade. And then there's the one on the pier that's really spooky with um the the one twin who he'd murdered with. i Yeah.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah, and then pouring gasoline on himself. And so i love their commitment to dreams. um I was really surprised by it. I think we discussed that in season one, where it's not something that you necessarily expect in like a sort of grounded crime drama to have information revealed through dreams. But I, i just love it. I think it's so cool.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, it makes it distinct amongst like mob shows and crime dramas. It gives it a whole vibe of its own and it informs the the the character's world. So, yeah,
Tony's Influence on Those Around Him
00:33:45
Speaker
I appreciate all those aspects of it.
00:33:47
Speaker
the The one last season two thing I i thought was interesting was we we i mean we get a lot of examples of everyone's life that Tony touches. like It either gets worse or they start behaving worse because... Because of him, you know, like we see the, the, um, I think this is, is, is it season two when, when Melfi's in the restaurant and starts a fight with the guy smoking, like similar to like when Tony, like, you know, old kind of rooms over the guy with the, with the hat in in the, in the restaurant.
00:34:20
Speaker
And but then we, we see all these other examples of like, the corruption of Tony, whether it's like through Artie, but also my heart went out for... i mean he like He's a pathetic guy, but Dave Scatino, his phrase like friend who has the gambling addiction, right now I think that performance was so striking for because I was like a huge Terminator fan as as a kid, and he played the evil Terminator in T2, who's just like an emotionless robot. That's quite a bit, yeah. Composite.
00:34:50
Speaker
but of that yeah complete opposite of that where he's like the most human person ever but like so good there's like the moment where he's just like doing Russian roulette in the like basement of his house and and like that quickly like hides the gun because it's like it's still shame like he's like suicidal but also he does not want to be you know caught with that like that he's like just carries such shame with him and but Tony is totally ah Initially, yes, tells him to not go to this like big executive game that he's not running.
00:35:24
Speaker
But once Davey's in for it, Tony's going to fully take him, yeah like take everything take his business, take everything he's worth. I felt no pity at all for Davey. I'm i'm opposite you. Maybe it's because I don't have the Terminator connection, but Tony fought really hard to keep him away.
00:35:40
Speaker
Like it was many, many, many no's. And he, you know, of course he's a gambling addict, but um at the time, i mean, I just, I felt so little sympathy for him. And I was actually kind of relieved at the end of season two.
00:35:54
Speaker
I think the best possible outcome is just that he like hit the bricks and went across country. Cause I thought for a while there, if things were going to end worse for him. Yeah, I mean, it could have ended darker, although the implicate, like he said, he's going to be on a ranch in Vegas. And like Tony kind of smirks when he hears Vegas. Well, I think also being on a ranch was humorous to Tony, but it's like gambling addict. You're going to be right near Vegas. OK, sure.
00:36:19
Speaker
Like that. This is this is just going to continue. Probably, know, like you think he's at bottom, but he's probably going to just spiral in another location. The most sympathetic
Dr. Melfi's Professional Dilemma Treating Tony
00:36:30
Speaker
person to me in terms of like Tony's corruption is corrupting them is Dr. Malthy, of course, and her in season two with the the alcoholism. And i loved I don't remember. Did this happen at the end of season one or I think it might have started in season two where we get access to her own therapy sessions with Elliot?
00:36:49
Speaker
I think that's, I think season two, we, we, we meet him. Yeah. It plays na a renowned director, Peter Bogdanovich. There's like cool cameos as the show goes along. It's like the fact that he's her therapist is really cool. And then we see those sessions.
00:37:04
Speaker
I don't know if you ever watched HBO in treatment, but that's a series about a therapist and he would see a new client every week. um Then the clients would repeat that there was always a session with his own therapist too. And those are often the best episodes. And I love the moments where Melfi is with Elliot.
00:37:21
Speaker
And I think, Those moments are so interesting because, you know, Melfi has her own therapist hat on in therapy. And yet she's also a person he can't understand or clearly see, objectively see her own motivations. And I really mourn for her in terms of like the drinking, in terms of the guilt that she feels. And again, it's a dream that drives her to take Tony back because she has that nightmare about him um having the panic attack while he's driving.
00:37:47
Speaker
Yeah, with with Wizard of Oz playing. And and like I love that like her and her therapist will kind of have combatting interpretations of these things because she keeps moving in on, like, no, this is my guilt because I've abandoned him and in like all these.
00:38:06
Speaker
When there should be like so many you know red flags. The fact that she is... you know no longer has him as a patient should be a victory. She should be able to, she should move on with her life and her life would be done. Like that's the rational response to Tony Soprano. but But like the fact that she can't let him go in in that way.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah. And you see sort of the the negative effects of like, over-therapizing herself and that she is sort of like pathologically diagnosing herself pre-session and trying to like quickly understand and process her reactions to Tony, whereas Elliot is able to ah objectively offer insights that, you know, we're not really sure whose take is correct because he sort of thinks that she gets this thrill from treating him in a way.
00:38:53
Speaker
Yeah, and do you agree with that? I don't know if it's like exactly a thrill. i Like, I think... Yeah, I'd be sure there probably is something exciting about treating a Bob Ross, but I don't think she's like an adrenaline junkie or something like that. I don't think she's an adrenaline junkie either. She's really measured, but I do think there is ah There's something more than professional obligation. i don't know if there's personal drive and the personal drive is to fix the unfixable or to do something you know in her career in psychology that hasn't really been done before. And I don't even mean for like the sake of publication for awards or anything like that. just for your own love. Like, oh, I did this. Yeah.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah. There is definitely a drive there that is hard to understand, but I don't think it's a thrill-seeking drive whatsoever. Yeah, I agree with with that. And like, yeah, that is a tragedy that she ultimately does to take him back because it's it's not good for for her. I mean, like, you can is is it good for Tony? Like, the when in season three, his wife starts coming to these sessions, she brings up like, it's been three years. He's still having the panic attacks, although like everyone else in Melfi's life keeps bringing up
00:40:16
Speaker
The limits of at least of, you know, where psychology is at that point of what you can do for anxiety attacks to what she does is kind of limited. So she's like, they're like referring him to a behaviorist for behavioral modification.
00:40:30
Speaker
that's like, you're like behavior modification for guy like it would be like, OK, stop doing mob stuff, you know.
Tony's Panic Attacks and Carmela's Therapy Journey
00:40:39
Speaker
I mean, know she there's a point where we get to like what we think at least is the bottom of the panic attacks, which is the meat and this like poor memory of the meat coming from the deli, wherein the father's been terrorizing the deli owner and Livia having like a moment of joy, knowing that the meat has come from like someone being brutalized. And that's like really pleasing to her. You know, it's like the sadistic memory that sort of relates to like all the times he's having panic attacks and around meat.
00:41:06
Speaker
And so at a certain point, yes, now that Melfi and Tony have discovered the root cause. She's suggesting like, all right, we got to like, you know, I guess in in this world, behaviorist, maybe like go to someone and develop coping mechanisms for like when you feel a panic attack coming on. That's beyond my purview, you know, go to someone else, but he won't do it and she won't let him go. who knows?
00:41:28
Speaker
who know And then he's also initially at least not because he someone else like when they have a meeting of like other mobsters, like from some of the New York families, one of the higher ups expresses concern of like it's kind of like common knowledge at that point. Even despite all the effort he put into keeping that private, like, no, it's fine. You know, when I heard of people, there are people you got to take care of your health. So then he shows up to her like putting on her like, OK. we got to be serious. But then he also will take calls during the sessions and is not doing like the whole work he's being given to like, kind of like take inventory of these things. Um,
00:42:07
Speaker
And I think one of things that's most interesting to me in season three is the episode where Carm goes to the therapist on her own that Malfi recommends. And this therapist is like, you have to leave Tony.
00:42:19
Speaker
You will never be soothed. You will never be free from the guilt that you feel. You have to take the children and go. And he says, I'm telling you this. so You can say So you can't say no one ever told you.
00:42:30
Speaker
And Carmela, rather than dragging this out, rather than coming back to more sessions to talk through, just immediately recognizes this equality of this advice. Well, it's not going to happen. She's not going to leave him. She's not going to divorce him. And so then she curls up on the couch in her afghan and is like, everyone else sleeps all the time in this house. That's what I'm going to do.
00:42:49
Speaker
Because she understands that she's sort of living in a reality that does not support therapeutic and interventions that are being recommended. But Tony and Nelfi cannot come to that same realization.
00:43:01
Speaker
they still have hope. Yeah, I mean, and because she is, for mob wives, what are the options? like You can't, when she brings up to a divorce, or even Pussy's wife brings up the divorce, and it's like, it seems very taboo that that's like, you know, you don't do that, because, but also, they're little hyper- concerned about security leaks, that's probably a thing of like, well, what have you told your wife? You know, like we can't, once she leaves the family, you have like less of a eye on her.
00:43:37
Speaker
yeah that was one of the most interesting moments of season two Karm's entire arc that episode is basically pressure Angie into staying with pussy. You know, like constantly remind her like the kids just left for college. Yeah, they're going to be destroyed. You want to destroy their whole lives. I know you're not actually going to leave him.
00:43:52
Speaker
And so then to... you know, be confronted by this idea that leaving Tony is the only way out, we know immediately that that's really not going to happen. And she even has that, you know, nasty comment in there where she says to the therapist, we are Jewish, so you probably don't get this, but families important to us Catholics, you know, like we've got to stick together or whatever, you know, just sort of the implication being like non-Catholics cannot possibly understand the devastation of divorce.
00:44:16
Speaker
But that's another moment where you understand the cognitive dissonance she's living in as someone who really, really believes in God and Catholicism, divorce is enough. right and Right. She can abide by, you know, at least tacitly, she can be aware that it is happening out of the corner of her eye.
00:44:33
Speaker
But to be an active participant in divorce proceedings is is too much for her. It's too
Meadow Soprano's Growth and Challenges
00:44:40
Speaker
much. Speaking of characters, casual bigotry, i you know, we were talking about Tony's panic attacks. One of the funniest moments on that Uncle Ben causes a panic attack. I mean, everything leading up to it is like, okay, yeah, we're reminding you of how these...
00:45:03
Speaker
retrograde beliefs that he holds, but the fact that it's just the visual of Uncle Ben Rice blocks that causes him to pass out. I don't know. I gotta laugh on that. The storyline is so horrific. I hate watching it. And I know it's, you know,
00:45:20
Speaker
from a different time, but I've just found that in season three really, really difficult to, like, stomach and get through. um And again, it is. he tweets where it's like you'll be watching I know, like, How I Met Your Mother is one that people say a lot, like, oh, it's my comfort show, except for, like, those ten minutes of, like, horrors that they occasionally hit you over the head with, and the ten minutes of horrors have been hitting me over the head in season three. um But yeah, i mean, that's been an interesting...
00:45:49
Speaker
line and air not line but like thread to follow in season three where I'm at now Meadow and Noah have broken up and there's like a Jackie April potential romance on the horizon but like the Noah storyline was was crazy. It was crazy. I guess for me I agree. Just in context of, you know, it's season one.
00:46:12
Speaker
We didn't even talk about the chocolate genius episode because that's probably the least favorite episodes of the show. Even though I really like that actor. We'll keep. Yeah. would find or if the I remember his name correctly but uh very underutilized I think we talked about like yeah I think the writing for black characters would be different if the show was made now no it almost feels like I'm sure the writing staff is know the soul white dudes this is this season but like there may be trying to like have you know because he's like not a criminal he's on the line or like you know or at least like it
00:46:48
Speaker
he's not playing to those the stereotypes. So, and then to have that make Tony confront his own, like, you know, big bigotry is, is, is interesting.
00:47:00
Speaker
So I that appreciated that. Yeah. The, the friction between Tony and meta over that conflict is really interesting. And I think like, I don't know. For me as a watcher, just like, I really enjoy Meadow as a character, even though she makes times that are frustrating. Like, she has some real, like, chutzpah to her. You know what I mean? um i think this may be made more so in juxtaposition with Anthony Jr., who as of now for me is like...
00:47:29
Speaker
Such a nothing. You know, maybe he'll be something. He's funny, but you know, you know, I'd be like, he's kind of a loser. i love when he gets back from his DC trip in season three and they're like, how is it? He's like, there was a Nintendo in the hotel
00:47:44
Speaker
They're like, you visited our nation's capital. And what else do you have to say? He's like, we play Nintendo in the hotel room. You know, like, that just sums him up. But Neto is like a thoughtful character who's tuned into what's going on. And you get the sense that she's aware of her own power sometimes, too, in a way that I think really alludes, like, AJ. I know she's older, but I just...
00:48:06
Speaker
enjoy her quite a bit and her time in college um has been really interesting i'm glad that we like spend time with her in columbia i was kind of worried that when she went away did they just write her off of the show yeah oh she like breathes back in for like the thanksgiving episode and then we wouldn't really know what's going on but she has you know the very mentally ill roommate and then um like other things going on while she got columbia and getting to see her like stretch her legs and and be a different person than Tony and be, you know, sort of absent from that influence, but also still carrying it within her has been really interesting.
00:48:40
Speaker
Because she seems well adjusted and still possessed enough that you can imagine like, okay, she's smart. She can have life beyond this, but it still follows her. Cause there's the scene where she meets Noah's father and you, you see the the look on her face when she has to, you know, go to the, the, the established lie about what her father does. And it's like, that's always going to be a, like a no go zone, you know, that she can't really avoid, you know, that you choose who your family is.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah, and the no story line beyond just, you know, introducing Meadow to, like, adult relationships. It's also, like, here is an opportunity for Meadow to be in such a different world than the one she was raised in. And she it just can't happen. And she gets dragged back into Jackie April Jr. Who is that? That's name, right? Jackie? Jackie April?
00:49:30
Speaker
Yeah, Jackie Jr. I don't know how far you've gotten into the the season, but is he's an adult, right? Like like Jackie Jr. Like, yeah.
00:49:42
Speaker
Well, he's like 21 or 22, right? like Yeah. yeah yeah Like, ah as of right now, he in Meadow, like Meadow, the last episode I'm in, she like takes his car, steals it and crashes it.
00:49:54
Speaker
And she's being very gentle with her at the end of this. But like, I just want him away from her. I don't like it. You know, get away from her, get a job, stay away from her. Jackie Jr., you know, because now he's inevitably going to back back into this.
00:50:08
Speaker
Because they talk about him like he's some golden child. You know, that's the promise that Tony made to the Jackie Sr., which is like, that's good, you know, the good ethos to keep, you know, the you're the next generation out of this this this life. But in terms of like him going to be some great doctor or something, like I can't pitch either.
00:50:28
Speaker
You know, I'm not getting doctor vibes from Jackie Jr., No, no, no, no. He is not giving Dr. Ruggs. That's not what his mask sheet is ruling. Like, no. Well,
00:50:42
Speaker
thank you for coming. I know you're on an appointment to to to make, so we should probably... there or height ah yeah and so and At the end of season three. And I hope when we chat again, Ralphie shall be dead. That is, that is my great dream, but I'm not optimistic about getting such a clean, like Richie introduced in season two, Richie dead at the end of season two. I don't foresee that happening yet again, but hopefully I surprise myself.
00:51:08
Speaker
I'll say just, just this way. And the show might not deliver in the satisfying ways you want, but it does, um it does reward patience. Let's just say that. So, you know, just,
00:51:18
Speaker
loving it and i'm watching fast so i am just enjoying it immensely and i hope when he does get what's coming to him that i i can stand up and cheer on the couch like a dad watching the superfoods love those those cheer moments and favorite shows do you have any plugs you want to quickly throw No, i think I'm good. Just, you know, follow me on Twitter at Megan underscore Lynn with free ends and otherwise continue to listen to these guys about the juice.
00:51:45
Speaker
Okay. And yeah, you follow me at the files and listen here. to Take care.
00:52:03
Speaker
I see change inside